Zoe Lister-Jones is Carrying Secrets

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Well, well, actually, I actually was on a date with a guy recently who was like, oh, God, I just one of my biggest things I love to steal. I'm obsessed with him. And I was like, just from-- Lock it up. I was like, just from corporations, right? He was like, no, house parties. Not house parties. I was like, I'm like, are you going to steal stuff from my house? Did you invite him into your home? No, yeah, but I'm looking forward to it. I don't have anything to steal. I don't really have anything to steal. That's actually such a fun game to see what he would steal from him. I'm going to put out little traps for him. I'm going to put out, like, you know how rich people do for the maid? To try and catch her in a thief. Yes. I'm going to do that for the guy I'm seeing. Get some like Teddy cams. That'd be, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. Who told me this? Okay, I'm not, oh my God. I just heard, I just heard the juiciest gossip recently. Please, I live for this. No, I don't know these people. Of course. So mind you, these people are strangers to me. And that's the best kind of gossip they're in. I couldn't reveal too much about them even if I wanted to. My friend told me about their friend. Okay. I'm following. Okay, they have, there's three friends involved. Shelley, David, Mark. These are fake names. Yes. Of course. Okay. Shelley and David are a heterosexual couple. You hate to hear it? Okay. You hate to hear it? heterosexual monogamous couple. They're in their early 30s. Yeah. heterosexual monogamous couple early 30s. Okay. It's a tale as old as time. It is. What were their names? Shelley and Mark. Shelley and Mark. David. David is Shelley's gay best friend. Okay. Also early 30s. I've seen this movie. Single gay guy. Yeah. Shelley checks the dog cam one day. Guess who's getting head from the gay best friend. Her. Mark. Hold it. Hold it. Wow. Whoa. Yeah. Getting slurped off. Wow. By the gay bestie. Not she had no suspicions. How long have they been together? Checking the doggy cam. I don't know those details. Because they're perfect strangers to me. I'm so sorry. Uh oh. That's my gay best friend. Swurping off my husband. And. Taking the skin off my husband's thing with his mouth. An oral circumcision. Throwing neck for my hubby. Wow. On the doggy cam. Whoa. Whoa. They ought to call it the oral cam. You know, because what was going on on there? Crazy. What? Crazy, crazy, crazy. And guess what? What? That was hot to me. I want to see the video. I. Interesting. Yeah. You're looking, you're like, you had a cut kink. I thought it was hot. Cut kink. Like, cut. Oh, I thought you said cut. I was like, I was like, I don't know. You know that. You know that. I was like, I'm care if it's cut or not. You guys have a good time. No, a cut kink. Like, you want to see someone get. No, I don't think that I do. But I do. I have recently had, did I say this on the show already? I've recently been experimenting. I think cut cheating is kind of hot. Now, that haven't been said. Yeah. I don't do it. I don't do it. And no one should do it to me. And it's only hot. Yeah. If. Well. It's three people you don't know. If it's three people you don't know. It's kind of hot. And if it's gay. Like, if it's straight to gay cheating, that's hot to me. I understand. Do you understand? Yeah. That's the hottest thing to me is straight to gay cheating. Yeah. Because it's also, it's like, affirming. Well, yeah. It's like, okay, I knew this was fun. Yeah. I knew being gay was fun. And now it's like unavoidable. Like, even straight people are doing it. You sort of have to support that cheating. Right. Because. We're just like, welcome to the community. Exactly. That's my brother. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Caught on the doggy cam, getting sucked off by the gay best friend. Well, well, well, well, well. I would, and it made me think you know what I would love to do at some point in my career. I would love to host a Jerry Springer type of show. I would love to be involved in some way anyway. I would love to be involved in some dumb ripoff. I'm talking OG original Jerry Springer style. I wear a suit. We bring these people out. Yeah. Maybe afterwards they get into some huge fight in the parking lot that makes the news. That's the kind of stuff I'm a little interested in right now. Because that's like a gotcha show. That's like a gossip gotcha. Yeah. Because these people don't know when they were going on Jerry Springer. Yeah. Were they unaware of what they were being brought into? They knew. Did you watch the Jerry Springer documentary? No, I knew. Did you all watch the Jerry Springer documentary? Yeah. Oh, it was incredible. But they talked to they interviewed some of the producers who convinced people to come on. Yeah. And no, a lot of times they were tricked. A lot of times they didn't know. They were tricked. And I wouldn't do that part. Everyone would be willing to participate in my idea. And like give me like an example of like a top notch like sweep sweep episode. I would bring on like for example in right now instead of just talking to you. I would ambush you. I would ambush you with three of your former lovers who would pull up. They would come. They would walk in the door and probably what is it five or ten minutes? Five or ten minutes with stools. Each of them. And they would set up a row of stools back here and I'd be like let's get into it. Oh my god. Can you imagine if in five or ten minutes chance over the door and they all walked in? Wouldn't that be fun? I mean kind of. Yeah. God. There's so many things I want to say right now that I know. There's so many things I want to say right now that I don't think I'm allowed to say. It would be a wild ride. Let's just say that. Let's just say that. Let's just put it like that. I'd be a good episode. Yeah. Zoe, what's been going on with you? Were you down with me? You been avoiding me like to play? What else? Yeah. What's been going on? I mean, you know, as you know, it's like really investing in myself. Yeah. A lot of therapy. Yeah. Yeah. Naomi asked me something. Because you've been in a lot of therapy as long as I've known you, right? Yeah. Yeah. What's going. What's the end game? Have we. We haven't figured it out. Well, I'm just still digging. What's going on in there? A lot. Yeah. A lot. Are you still in the group therapy? You're still in group therapy. Okay. And I know I'm not allowed to talk about stuff that goes on in there, but. I mean, still in. Last time that we saw each other. Yes. And you said something like. When will the lesbians have enough therapy, something along those lives? When will we, you start to think at a certain point we should have figured something out, right? God, no. No. No. No. Uh-uh. This day and age now. Fuck. It's a sort of spiritual excavation. What are you still doing? I mean, because you know, we go into, not in my therapy, but I, I, I, I visit a witch near the airport. And she told me all about my past lives. So the excavation is, I mean, we've got centuries. Yeah. You know, to explore. Do you feel there's a point where we're thinking about ourselves too much? Do you fear that? A hundred percent. Totally. Just checking, just checking, just checking, just checking. A hundred percent. I would love to not think about myself as much. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Interesting. But it's like, you know, I'm trying to get. Here's the thing that I admire about you. And this is the only thing. Yeah. Because there's a lot to also be concerned about. Yeah, condemn. To condemn. To condemn and disavow. Is that like, I feel like you. Generally have a real grasp on like happiness. Whoa. Whoa. That's really sweet. Don't you think? Oh, I hope so. And I. Mine is slippery at best. Yeah. I feel that you're happy. I. I'm like. Um, I think I'm a pleasure seeker. Totally. Whether I'm happy or not is sort of that's what we're. That's what we're paying the big bucks for. Wow. Zoe, you've brought us something very important. Yeah. Pleasure and happiness are not the same thing. No. All the time. No. That's actually a lesson I've been dealing with the last couple of years. Okay. Because my 20s, I was just like. I overcame people who are tired of hearing me talk about this on the show. I overcame my suicidal ideation. Yes. Yeah. My sophomore year of college. Yes. I wanted to kill myself. Yes. I had plans. Yeah. I didn't do it. And then I was like, fuck it. I'm having fun every minute of my life. Yeah. Until it's over. Yeah. And then I got to like 28 and I was like, this isn't necessarily the same thing as happiness. Do you know what I mean? Oh, yeah. Right. Did you have a similar journey? Oh, yeah. I mean, mine was later in life. Well, I mean, I went hard in my 20s, but then in my late 30s, which is in my future, I'm just kind of talking. about what I'm seeing. - What will happen later? - Yeah, later in my life, I went hard. - Yeah. - And there is something so like liberating. - I feel like that's when I came to you. - That is when you came to me. - I think that's when we became friends. - It is. - 'Cause I, I, I, I, we started hanging out and I was like, "Damn this bitch." She's really going after everything. (laughing) - I was going after everything. - Yeah. - Including you. - Yeah. - I mean, we barely knew each other and you said you want to come to Europe. - Yes. - And I said 100%, what was it? Two and a half weeks. - Yeah. - Strangers. - Yeah. - And I said yeah. - I actually remember we were, yeah, we had been, we had hung out a little bit. - We weren't strangers. - I had said no, but I'm, I'm on your side. It was pretty, I had said kind of half-heartedly. (laughing) - No, it wasn't. - I just said like roll this back. - I hope she won't take me up on this. (laughing) - No. - I said we were at lunch. - Dinner. - No. Yeah, you're right. We were at dinner. - Yep. - I said I'm going to Europe, do you want to come? - Yeah. - It wasn't half-heartedly. It was a totally genuine invitation. - Yeah, yeah. - I didn't think you would say yes. - Absolutely not like that. - I was like, there's no way she'll say yes. - That's right. - And you're like, you're welcome. You're welcome. I was like, okay. And then we went to London. - We went to Amsterdam. - We started in London. - Started in Amsterdam. - No, we did not. - Yes, we did. - No, we did not. - We went to Amsterdam and we were in that lake house. - Have we gone to London a second time? - No, but London was so. - We took a train from London to Amsterdam. We were in London. - You're right. - I know that I'm right. And you know how I know I'm right? We were in the back of one of those goofy little fucked up British taxi cabs. And you're like, you're like, should we go straight to the spa? I was like, I guess. And you got on the phone and you're like, two massages in, how long will it be? 41 minutes? Two massages in 41 minutes. And then I got a massage and felt the worst I've ever felt. - Wait, why? - They always make me feel bad. And then I'm pretty sure I had COVID in Amsterdam. - Well, we both had COVID. - For sure. - But we had a time. - Oh my God, we had a time. - We almost missed the boy genius concert. - Oh my God. - Because remember, we were at a train station in Brussels. - With homes. - Was homes there for that? - Oh no, they came to the boy genius concert. - They came to the boy genius concert. - Yes. - It's homes in Dan Lavi. - In Brussels, we almost, yes. - We almost missed our train. - That's right. - Because we were just sitting. - They're making me announcements. They don't tell you anything. - You were in the gift shop buying a tiny bell. - Yes. - And you were just ringing it. And then suddenly it was like, oh my God. We were jingled jangling. - We were jingled jangling. - And we couldn't. They were really rude. - They were really rude. They saw a side of me that very few people have seen. - I've seen it. - I got mad. - Yeah. - They were mean to us. - They were very mean. - Yeah, I was mad. They were really, really rude to us. - Yeah. - I didn't like it. - Me neither. - I don't like when people were rude to me. - You are unique. - But you know what? You do step to people who are rude to you in a way that I respect. - Yeah, because they're being rude to all of us. It's crazy. - Yeah. - Because I start very nice. I'm like-- - Very nice. - I want to be nice to everybody. - Yeah. - But if you're rude to me, if you want to have a bad day, we can have one. And I will participate in it. - You want to have a bad day. Let's both have one. - Yeah. - I just don't want to. I'd rather have fun. - Me too. - So then it makes me even more mad that I'm like, you know how lovely of an interaction we could have had? - Yeah. - You went to sleep smiling and kicking our feet about this tonight. But instead, you wanted to be evil. - Evil. - And I can be evil. - Evil. - Do you feel that you can be evil? - Evil? - Yeah. - You can't be evil. - No, I'm not evil. Do you feel that-- - Yeah. - What do you feel you're capable of? What's the worst thing you think you're capable of in the best? - The worst thing I'm capable of, I think I can be nasty. - Oh, how so? - Like if I'm really, well, I can be nasty and gossip. - You are a gossip. - Oh my God, I'm a gossip, but I'm working on that. - Are you? - Do you consider me a gossip more than other people are gossip? - No, not at all. - Thank you. - But I do know, there are friends that if I have gossip, maybe I'll take it to them and they'll be like, oh, that's interesting. And if I bring gossip to you, you're like, I'm like-- - I'm slivering that shit. - I'm slivering that cock who right up. - Yeah, you're on the doggy cam. - I'm on the doggy cam. - Going down on that gossip. Yeah. - Yeah. - Give it to me. I live and die for gossip. - You love gossip. That's not even really your fault though. It's not my fault. The thing is people bring it to me. - Right. - I think 'cause I slurp it. - Yeah. - They know I'm an actor, so if you bring it, they will slurp it. - And if you slurp it, they will bring. - Hello. - Yeah, so I'm like, I am the carrier of many secrets as well. - That's a beautiful thing to say about yourself. That's an awesome. People used to talk like that. - I am the carrier of secrets. - You know what I mean? I am Zoe, carrier of secrets. That's beautiful. - Thank you. - Of Brooklyn. Zoe of Brooklyn, carrier of secrets. - When you're gonna move back to New York, I think we've had it with the L.A. era. - I don't think so. - Well, you have a beautiful home there. I do love your house, but aren't you, I mean, don't you just feel that it's time to come on home? - It's, I would say that your time here is one of the more enticing elements. But, but. (laughing) - This is exactly what I've been banging on. - I know, I know it, and I don't like it. - Oh. - But I, I, I do think about it. I have so much fun when I'm here. - Come on home. - But I also. - I want you back. - I know. - So are you also what? - It's just, this is the, so when I lived in New York, I had a friend come who was like lived in L.A. And I thought she was so cool. And she was like, I love to visit New York but could never live here. And that turned me off to her or eternity. I was like, that person's not cool. That person will never be cool to me. And now I am that person. - You're not that person. - A little bit. - A little bit. - Come on, though. - I know, maybe. - Come back to New York. - Maybe when I turn 30. - Move back to New York. Re-shape your head when you turn 30, it's very funny. Re-shape your head. Bring back your shaved head era. - Don't you think? - I never got to know you doing that. - I was thinking about it actually. - I never got to know you when you had like a foe hawk and you were playing in fucking bands. - I didn't get to know that, so we. - I know, I think we should bring her out. - Tell me about her. - I sort of had to play a game of catch-up. I don't know if you felt this way, but because I was so prudish in high school in college, I was like, we gotta get thisignment bomb. (laughing) Any takers? - Yeah. - Yeah. - And there were, there were takers. But I sort of moved through, I think like, important sexual crossroads in too much of a hurry at that stage of my life because I was feeling like I had to catch up. I don't know if you experienced that or if you're interested in talking about it. - I go. (laughing) - Anyway. - No, totally. - I feel really grateful for, I feel really grateful for a lot of things about my young sexual experience. And one of them is that I'm grateful for my prudishness and I'm grateful that I wasn't hooking up with 40-year-old men on Craigslist. I really, really, really hope that I don't mind an age gap. Like, I don't mind someone. I'm not really prudish about age gaps in general. - Me neither. - But specifically, this is such a different thing that I'm like, when you're a child, I just really, even like guys in their 20s, I was like, if there was a guy on Grindr, when I was 16, 17 and he was 24. To me at the time, I was like, I think that would be a really bad idea. And I'm glad that I had that sense of like responsibility about it. - Yes, totally. - But then it didn't. No, I did not in college do anything about it. I was, if anything, more prudish in college. - Oh, you were. - Yeah, I was just so focused on, I grew up really poor and I was so focused on success. - Yeah. - And I also, for a number, you know, I think success for me at that age was about a lot of different things, but it was about proving my value. It was about proving that I'm different than where I'm from. It was about validating that I'm different than where I'm from. Actually, it's a good thing that I never feel like I fully fit in where I'm from because it means I'm this other thing, which is successful and smart and person who always wins. And it was like, I'm gonna get out. I'm not gonna be poor. I'm not gonna be struggling with the bills for the rest of my life like a lot of my family is. And also, I'm fat and gay. And those things are in many spaces like undesirable. So basically, it was like, if I can just like be the most successful person in the world, I think I can be untouchable and I can overcome this, like these things that I don't like about myself. So college was like that went into overdrive. Like I was in like everything. I was in every club. I was in every meeting. I was in every protest. I was like, all my classes, like I needed to have A's. I needed to like, which is of course why I ended up so I was like, what? (laughing) It's like, that's not a good way to live. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - But yeah, it was total overcompensating. It was total like, it was total just like insecurity on blast. Thankfully, it went that way and not like a worst way. - Yeah. - That's not healthy, but it's not like, you know, doing math then. - It served you. - Yeah. - Yeah. - It worked. - Sure. - For a while, and then it didn't. - Yeah. - Yeah. - But no, it was so, all that is to say, no, I was not, I would say even when I got to Chicago, after college, I was still really fixated on success and trying to prove to myself that like, choosing to pursue comedy was not a huge mistake. And then I wasn't like ruining my life, doing this stupid foolish thing. - Yeah. - I would say I started doing that thing. Probably, like when I moved, like maybe in my late 20s, like in my mid to late 20s. - And we met in your late 20s. - We sure did. - So we both-- - You're not linked up at a really beautiful moment. (laughing) - Beautiful moment. - We were both really hungry. - We were hungry. - Yeah. - We were hungry. - But how was the college catching up period? Did you feel like it was healthy, unhealthy, detrimental, positive? - Determine all. - For sure. - Yeah. - For sure. - Yeah. - No worries, just checking. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Everything's fine. Now, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I went to fucking acting school. So it was also like, dire in terms of options. - At NYU. - At NYU. - Well. - Yeah. - I guess the grass is always greener. 'Cause like, I was sitting in Missouri State going, man, if I was at NYU, I'd be taking them down. - Well, you'd be in a different category. I think as like, at the time, I identified as a straight woman. - Really funny, by the way. - Which is hilarious. - You were the same type of thing. - You were the shape head doing panty bits at the rock show being like, I am traditional, if anything. (laughing) - Conservative, even. Yeah, no, I identified as straight. I had always had crushes on girls. And to be honest, they, thems before they knew they were, they, thems, but I was like afraid of it. Even though I was surrounded by so many dikes, like my whole childhood was just, it was dike day. - Yeah. - Dike day every day. And still, it was scary to me, very scary to me, to like, actually acknowledge my sexuality. So all to say that at NYU, it was like, you know, male actors. - Yeah. - Tough. - Um, present company exploded. - No. - 'Cause I don't think you identify as an actor. (laughing) - And I'm gonna say that for you. - That was hurtful. - That was hurtful. - You go. - You guys say something? - You go. - You go. - You go, you go. You go, you go. You go, you go. You go, you go. You go, you go. You go. - You're not an actor. - You go. - Yeah. - Let's be honest. You don't have it. - Here's the thing. I don't identify as an actor. - No. - And I feel in the same vein, you don't identify as an actor. - No, we're so much more, right? - We're so much more, guys. - We're so much more. - Please, please, please. - I actually had the thought when you said male actors that I was like, oh yeah, and specifically actors. They don't, right? They don't. - Correct. - There's nothing else going on other than like, there's something very specific about a man who is only an actor. - Very specific. - It's a very intense kind of like, yeah. - Yeah. - He's sucking off Mark on the doggy camera. - Yeah. - And sin. I want to watch. - No. I want to watch. And that's the best performance of his career. - I want to watch. - Yeah. - Yeah. So I didn't, it was a tough time, but also I was, I think I-- - Sorry. - I just remembered a joke. - Go ahead. - That I heard once. - Go ahead. - You know this one? - All right. - What, no? - There's this joke that goes like, it's, you know, what's the, you know, there's a show, 90210. - Correct. - Right? - From back in the day. - Of course. - You know about this. - I do. - And it's called that because it's the zip code of Beverly Hills, right? - What's the, what's the, there's another popular show from that time called Dawson's Creek. What's the zip code in Dawson's Creek, do you know? - No. - No. - 901108. - No. - I mean. - I gotta go. - Come on. - I gotta go. - I gotta go. - Come on. - I gotta go. - In that fun. - Don't leave me. - 901108. - 901108. - 901108. - That's funny. - That's funny. - Anyway, what was going on with you in college? - Anyway. - Your sex was bad. - Your sex was bad for you. - You still friends? - Not really. - Wow. - Not not friends. - Wow. - But we just sort of lost touch. - Yeah. - And it was like New York at that time. - New York at that time. (laughs) - It was unbelievable. I mean, you would have died. The music scene. It was New York 2000 and 2004. So it was like strokes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like all of it was Indie Slees. - Yeah. - It was height of Indie Slees. And so we were just like out every night at shows. And just like going nuts. I was never wearing pants. You know what I mean? - Yeah. - And. - We were in. - Just shirts. - Nice. - Yeah. And. - You would have loved New York in this time. - Yeah. - I wasn't wearing only shirts. - I mean, you would have loved that. - I would have loved that. - But I will say still in college, I was like performing wild child. And I was a wild child. But sexual intimacy, intimacy again was like kind of, I wasn't really, I wasn't as free as I was. - Reporting. - Reporting. - So you were fucking. - You're in there. - Not even really. Not how much sex. - Not really. I was in a very co-dependent relationship with my gay best friend. And we. - Yeah. - And we were sort of, it sort of isolated and insulated us. - Yeah. - From fucking. And then once he started fucking, I was like, "Hoddamn." You know. 'Cause then he was like, he became really sexually liberated. - Yeah. - And I still wasn't. Took until probably like 37 when we met. For me to really find it. - Yeah. - I mean, kind of. It was around that time in my life that I really, I think this happens for many cis women, like late 30s to early 40s. There is like a sexual, an internal sexual revolution, that's occurring. - Yeah. - That is pretty cool. - Yeah. - Yeah. - That's really interesting. I've felt that. Like I felt that in our friendship. I witnessed the permutations and the changes. And I know what's going on over there. - You do. - To some extent. - Oh yeah. So yeah, the co-dependent friendship in your 20s can really, to really take things off the rails. Well, it's a cockpaw and it's also a very confusing. Yeah, I'm just glad you had yours with a gay man. - Who's yours with? - Well, I just mean that most of the women I know have had that intense psychotic co-dependent friendship with another woman. And they are varying levels of queerness. And God help you have two straight women get into a, but let's just say lesbian co-dependent friendship. - Yeah. - It gets really fucking confusing very fast and having to be on the parameters of that. And like, I feel like, you know, in movies, after something biggest happened, there's always that one non-speaking character who runs in with one of the blankets and wraps it around the person. That's me with lesbian co-dependent friendships. I'm just waiting with the blanket, like, whenever you're ready. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I've had to bring the blanket to so many girls. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - That are like, she's just my friend. It's like, okay. If you say it, but you're really upset she couldn't go to dinner. So something more might be going on. - Totally. - But I'm glad yours were the gaming, 'cause it's very clear. - It was very clear. - Still bad, but clear. - Bad but clear. And that sort of, yeah, the theme of my life. Bad but clear. - Hey, I understand what's going on, and I don't like it. - Yeah, yeah. But you know, and then I started dating. I started dating, yeah, men who were, or I started dating a boy in college. He was sort of my first boyfriend. And I'll say it. He had attempted suicide. And then went to the psych ward. And that's when I decided you're the one for me. - Yeah, yeah. - You said, hey. - 'Cause he had a crush on me before that. - Yeah, before the suicide. - Yeah. - Attempt, sorry. - Yes, yes, before the attempt. - Yeah. - And then I, it took. I mean, it really speaks. It's a lot of what we're unpacking. It's like, I, I, yeah, was attracted to the chaos, I think. - You liked, you thought, you were like, this is fun that he's gone to the ward. - I didn't think it was fun. I was very concerned for him. - Yeah, okay. - But I, but it's interesting that that was like, that's the guy. - That's what flipped the switch. - Yeah. - Yeah. And that, yeah, yeah. And I think, then I, that's something that I sort of continued to repeat. - Yeah. - Into varying degrees of like, yeah, being attracted to probably the chaos of my childhood, if we're really getting into it. And I've been in enough therapy if you want to talk. - If we really want to talk about where this comes from. - Just down the block from here, starting around four. It was really chaotic. - Yeah. - Yes, so I think that, anyway. But then he was like my first boyfriend and treated me pretty poorly. And set off sort of a chain reaction of toxic dysfunctional relationships. - Yeah. - And how are you doing now? (laughing) How's it going now? - The way you wanted to get out of that. - I don't, no, no. - What about me? I don't die. Well, I will, I will stay in it for as long as you'd like to. It means nothing to me. - That was scary, probably. - You know what's sick about me is I, I actually had to stop myself from asking, why do you think you tried to kill himself? What happened? - That's where I really wanted to go. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And I decided for your sake, not to. - Yeah. - I'll be in it all day. - Yeah. Also, he's thriving now, so he's doing well. - Nice. - Just wanted to say that for the listeners out there. - He's in the Senate. - Yeah. (laughing) - He's the senior senator from South Carolina. - He's James Talleriko, but I, no, I, what was your question? - How's the, how are things going now? - How are things going now? - You've made some progress on this. Are you, sex and love addiction has not ever entered your situation? Okay, cool just checking. - I mean, not, I've not been diagnosed. - Totally. - But it's definitely something that I'm intrigued to explore once I get the time. 'Cause the calendar's pretty good. - Once I get through the treatments I'm in now, I'd love to walk in on loving sex and addiction. - Walking on that kind of stuff. Well, I mean, I do think that most, many people are afflicted without really, you know, by definition knowing what it means. - Totally. - I think, yeah, especially like, at one point or another in one's life, there has been an addiction to sex or love. - I think most of our problems, most of what people refer to as like dating sucks or dating is so hard. My feeling is that most of the time that is like undiagnosed things going on in the community. Like, you're around a lot of people that are going through stuff they don't even know about. I think everyone knew more about their stuff. Dating wouldn't be so hard. But so many people in dating don't know what's wrong with them, what they're looking for, what's wrong with the person they're with. And wrong, I mean, like, just really what's going on? - Yeah. - Like, why are you behaving like that? Why do you, why do you get turned off when someone is interested in you? Does anyone have any answer to that? (laughing) - Happy for a friend. - Does anyone have any answer to that? When someone likes you back, why is it such a turn off to all of us? - Correct. (upbeat music) - Well, y'all, spring has officially sprung. And I, for one, can't wait to get out of the house and enjoy the good weather with friends. I'm talking long walks through the neighborhood, barbecues in the park, night time bike rides, home from dinner, and so much more. And you know me, I always love to dress for the occasion. So this spring, I'll be reaching for my favorite pieces from Fab Lettics. I actually really do love their stuff. It's incredible. And that's exactly why I want you guys to enjoy these close to. If you sign up for Fab Lettics as a new VIP, you get perks like 70 to 80% off everything. That makes it easier to grab a few new pieces without overthinking it. I'm telling you, the quality of their stuff is so great. Everything feels premium soft breathable and built to last. Premium soft breathable and built to last. I was my nickname in college. But you're not paying those premium brand prices and they're so versatile. But you've got pieces you can work out in, but also wear out matching sets, lightweight hoodies, joggers, and teas. It's the kind of stuff you can throw on in the morning and not think about again. My favorite piece of Fab Lettics clothing I own? Gosh, it's hard to say, I like them all so much. Shop now at Fab Lettics.com so I show true to get 70 to 80% off everything when you sign up as a new VIP. Take a quick style quiz and be sure to select so true when prompted to unlock your 70 to 80% off. This is a limited time offer, so don't wait. Again, that's Fab Lettics.com so I show true for 70 to 80% off everything as a new VIP. Well guys, if you're like me, your house has been vetted with bugs. You have so many bugs in your house you don't even know what to do. You're practically swimming in bugs in your house. That's me, Mr. Bugs. 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Whoa, a good pair of glasses can make a huge difference and not just a person's appearance, but the way they go about their day to day lives. Everyone should have a pair of glasses that makes them feel stylish and confident. And in this day and age, with so many places offering frames that aren't just out of style, we're also downright expensive. One company is looking to change all of that. Our friends at Warby Parker are making the glasses buying experiences better every day. They're the absolute best when it comes to quality price for idea-style customer service and more. They also offer a virtual trial on service where you can literally try on glasses from your phone before you buy. You just point your camera and boom. You can see tons of frames on your face in real time. Or if you want to try on a parent person, they have over 300 retail stores nationwide. And Warby Parker prescription glasses started $95 so you can actually get quality and stylish frames at an affordable price. They also are helping people in need through their buy a pair, give a pair program where they have distributed over 20 million pairs of glasses to people who otherwise wouldn't have had access to quality I wear right now by one prescription pair and get 20% off any additional prescription pairs at Warby Parker dot com slash so true. That's 20% off additional prescription pairs when you go to W-A-R-B-Y Parker dot com slash so true. (upbeat music) - Here's my current theory. And I don't know if this is my so true, but here's my current theory. Is that like, I think in relationships to a greater or lesser extent, many of us are just looking for evidence that we are unworthy of being loved. - Say it again. - It was too good, I can't repeat it. No, I think we're sort of all, maybe not all, but many of us are looking for evidence that we are not worthy of being loved. At least they'll speak for myself, not the community in general. He's gonna push back and I can see it. - No, I'm really considering it. - Do you know what I mean though? Like that it's something that I've come to very recently in my life because I fight really hard for romantic relationships, but I think at my core, I am always like kind of looking for the ways in which someone could reject me or the ways in which like I might not be lovable because I think that is, unfortunately, my core belief. Like. - That you're unlovable. - Yes, on a deep level. - Oh, I find you so easy to love. - Thanks. No, and I appreciate that. - I find you so easy to love. You're talking about only romantic love? - No, no, I mean, look, I think I am a lovable person and I love you and I love to be loved by you. - Yeah. - But I think that there is something like that's like sort of molten core, like deeper. Deeper than like what I can know. It's like what I can know, you know what I mean? - And what's in there? - It's like deep, it's like. - What's that part? - That maybe I, that I don't actually believe I'm lovable. - Oh, so the really deep molten core. - But down here, do I know it, you know? And I think that's like, that's why we're in all the therapy is just sort of just chip away at that thing. - Yeah. - You know? - Yeah, I don't know, I don't know her. I'm not in there with her. - I know. - I wish I could. - She's little. - I wish I could tell her, yeah, I wish I could tell her how easy she is to love and how love she is. But that's hard, that's really hard. I don't know. I guess I don't, yeah, I don't know how you get her out of there. I mean, it's like, I think, this is a more therapy talk, but I do think it is like acts of self love. I think it's not seeking it from the outside world. It's figuring out how to like be really sweet to yourself. - Yeah. - And that's something that I really admire new. I think you are very sweet to yourself. - I try. - Yeah. - I try to be, I'm getting better at it. - Yeah. - I think I was very hard on myself for a long time and realize that we're not in the right place. It wasn't really working, or not even that. It's like, my life is great. This is the problem with anxiety and negative self-talk and things like that, is like, if your life is going well, there's at least some evidence that it's working. You go like, oh my god, I wish I wasn't so anxious, but fuck, if I wasn't so anxious, would I have gotten that done on time? Or would I be where I'm at? So there's like some level of like reinforcement that like, it's kind of working out, you know? - Absolutely. - But I realized like, I think I could get just as much done. I think I could show up just as well for my friends if I was doing all the same things I'm doing just in a sweeter way to myself. Just being nicer to myself. - Yes. - But that realization was hard to come by. I think for a long time, it was like, you have to be mean to yourself in order to get things done. - Yes. - Do you know what I mean? - Well, I think, 'cause I have a similar experience as you like, in my childhood, where I was like, I must be successful in order to like, write the wrongs of like, or just like, I had seen how my parents are both artists and they were always like broke and struggling. And I was like, that cannot be me. And so I think I also put a lot of attention on work and being the best and like, perfectionism. But perfectionism, while it can lead you to success and acclaim, can also lead to negative self-talk. Because there's such a sense of like, do better. Do better. You know. - So how's it going now? Do you feel good? - I do. I feel good now. Yeah. - Nice. - I think, yeah, life is pretty good. - Yeah. - I mean, the world's on fire, but I feel like I'm, I've found many things that bring me happiness in my life, which is really nice. - Yeah. - Yeah. - What do you think? I feel like there's so many people who listen to the show that are, we're having an earnest episode. Me and you. - Is it too earnest? - We love an earnest episode. We're having an earnest episode, so I'm curious like, if somebody's gotten this far into the episode, they're down with the earnestness. - Oh God. - They're like, down with the earnestness. 'Cause I think we have really silly episodes that I get to about this point and I go like, I can kind of say any silly stupid goofy shit I want. 'Cause if they stuck around, they're here for it. - Yeah. - Feel the same way about earnestness that I'm like, we've had a very earnest talk. So, I think there are, I know that there are a lot of people who listen to and watch the show that are, you know, probably in pretty similar positions to the one that you were in when you were maybe at like, am I you like, they're like early 20s? - Yeah, yeah. - They're going crazy. - Yeah. - They're fucking people, they shouldn't be fucking. - Yeah. - They're anxious, they're perfectionists, they're, they haven't figured a lot of things out yet. What like, yeah, what do you think is the thing that you would tell that version of yourself now, knowing everything you know, having been through what 78 kinds of therapy? - Yeah. - What would you tell her? What would be helpful? Maybe someone will get something. - What would be helpful? I mean, I think, you know, go toward what makes you feel good. And sometimes that's a learning curve. So it's like, sometimes something can make you feel good and then makes you feel really bad. And that's okay too. - That's all right, yeah, yeah. - And that's okay too. Most of the time those two things are kind of in a Venn diagram. - Yeah. - But like, yeah, I would say, like, go easy on yourself. You know, like at every age you are, I feel like it's the oldest you feel you will ever be. You know, like when I was in my 20s, I was like, well, this is it, nothing else to learn. You know, I gotta get it really right. And it's like, I would just be easy on myself, enjoy my collagen and sort of the lift, the general lift that's on the face. And like, yeah, I would say like don't just, don't accept crumbs. That's what I would tell my 20 year old self, don't accept crumbs, you're worth more than crumbs. And go after the people that like really see you and lift you up and make you feel like happy. Don't chase the thing that is like going to make you feel going to increase the negative self-talk. We have enough of that. - Yeah. - So I think surround yourself with people and work and experiences that increase the positive self-talk. - Yeah, I can also be honest with yourself. Some people don't need to hear this. Some of you do not need more positive self-talk. (laughing) You know, we gotta really be honest. - Correct, correct, correct. It's all like advice and inspiration. - I know. - It's like, you gotta be honest with yourself. There are some things that I hear that I hear someone say really convincingly on the internet that some like beautiful older woman with the right pair of glasses is, she's like, you have got to, and then she'll say something that I'm like, that is so beautiful and sounds so correct. And then I do a little quick self-inventory and I go, that wasn't for you, Caleb. - Oh, and that's you don't need that. - Yeah, correct. Do you need, part of, I think this is part of the problem that we're in right now culturally, is not enough people are going, was that for me? Did I need to hear that? Do I need to respond to this? Was this meant for me? Do I need to project my life experiences onto that thing? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And not enough of us are taking a second to go, like, that one doesn't apply to me. So just figure out what you need, 'cause there are some people that have way too much positive self-talk. - Too much positive. - And it would actually be helpful if every once in a while an anxious, maybe critical voice said, do us. Do us of that. So I think, and I mean this with love, just figure out which one you need. - Yes, and I will say that the algorithm, because you see all these, like, there's so many people giving advice on my algorithm, obviously, and they're all like, if you're seeing this, this is for you. And that, and that's not, not not correct. - Not necessarily. - Not correct. No, I agree with you. Some people need to tone it down. - Yeah. - Some people could use maybe a little more humility. Some people. - Some people. - I'm not here to say who it is, I'm just saying. - But those who are like too much, or whatever the crowd is that you're speaking to, that ultimately just comes from actually being insecure. - Totally. - Don't you think? - But I'm like, the solution, if the goal is wellness, peace with yourself, genuine happiness, as often as you can have it, the solution is not gonna be the same for everybody. And the person, like the ego maniac who hears that, if you hear, if you know that you have a big ego, there's nothing wrong with that. We can work with that, that's okay. But if you have a big ego and you know that about yourself, genuinely when you're alone with your thoughts, and no one else has to know that you know it, if you hear someone say work on being kinder to yourself, there's a different way to apply that than sweet or self-talk. You're probably already being pretty sweet to yourself. There's a different way to be kinder to yourself. - Sometimes. - So give me the inner monologue for that person. Sometimes being kinder to yourself means like, hey, ask other people some questions and stop talking so fucking much. - Got copy. - That might be 100% agree. - So when you hear someone say maybe like, take ups as much space as you need. - No. - That's not for you. - Less space. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - You work on taking up less 'cause your natural setting is more. - Yes. - 100%. - I just want people to be realistic, that's all. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And I'm trying to do it for myself. I hear things sometimes and I go, that's not for you. Like I struggle to keep in touch with people. It's a thing I'm really working on. - Do you? - Yes, I keep in touch as much as I can. I do okay, but it's a huge, it's a big list of like, people I'd like to be keeping in touch with. I could do better with people that are close to me. And I want to do better. And so when I hear people be like, you don't owe anybody anything, turn that phone off. I'm like, oh, that's already my kind of default. I need to let that one slip out of my memory a little bit. - Yeah, but I will say this about you, you respond. I respond, but I've, you're not going to respond anymore? - I'm like, kind of in my don't respond there. But here's why though. I'm a little bit, not to you, not to you. Because I will say, and here's the deal, you don't ask me for much. The phone has become kind of a nightmare for me, where every time I open it, there are 70 messages, minimum across platforms, and 65 of them, somebody wants something. - What do they want? - Anything, can you, can you buy this, can you share this, can you post this, can I come on your show? Can, are you going to be in town? Can you do my show? Can you? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Hey, this person is waiting here back about this. We need to schedule a meeting with this person. And some of it is necessary and great. - Yeah. - I don't want a life where nobody wants anything from me, but I'm starting to get a little bit like, I'm starting to get to a point where I'm like, I'm just really not going to respond to that. - Yeah. - There are times when it's inappropriate. If you ask me for absolutely anything, I would be like, for sure. - Yeah. - But there are people who I haven't talked to in months or years, we're not really particularly close. - And they're asking for something. - And they're asking for something that's like, that's kind of a big ask. - Yeah. - And there's nothing wrong with asking, do you think I'm not mad at them for asking? But I am like, I think as much as you get to ask, I feel like I should get to just not respond. - Yeah. - At a certain point. But I also don't fully believe that is the issue. It's hard because it's not how I operate. - Yes. - But I'm also like, it's making me miserable responding to all this shit. So something needs to change. - It's finding a balance. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And prioritizing who you want to respond to. - Yeah. - But I will say that I admire how you respond. 'Cause I respond how you respond. At least to me, I'm a responsive. I don't leave my friends not responded to. - Nor do I. - For days, days, days, days, weeks. That's a tough one for me. - I hate that. - It's tough one for me. - I am an active. I like a quick response time. - That's the thing is I sometimes. I don't get a response from someone about something that isn't even me asking for something and they're there two hundred times less busy than I am I go you mean to tell me you can't text me back That's right. Nothing going on. That's right. It's right. It makes me feel crazy. Oh, what I might We're gonna right now. We're gonna pause it and it's gonna play piano music and it's just gonna be a a scroll like an in-memorial Everyone that's going on the name that should have texted me back Yeah, I got it. It makes it crazy crazy because I like what do you mean crazy you have you have you're not working right now You don't have a partner. You don't have a kid. You don't have like a parent in hospice not even a pet You don't have don't have a dog or a cat no runner on the house? No, and you're telling me you can't get back to me about one Come on something's up. Yeah, something's going on. That's right. I'm calling the cops. We need that person needs more negative self-talk I mean, I don't want them to go negative, but I certainly want them to go critical It's a fine line. I'm asking some questions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't care. Whatever. Yeah. No, I know. I really don't care A big thing a big thing I've been doing lately is I'll go I'll go on like a three-minute Michelle has heard a lot of this I'll go on like a three-minute rant about something and I'll be like that's what I would say if I was someone who cared about that I'm like whatever man. I was hard. I don't give a fuck. Whatever. I know. Whatever. Forget it. Just forget it. I know Everyone's doing their own thing. I need to get on a bike in the sunshine a sap and we'll fake. We'll sort of that's right That's all you need. That's right. That's all I need. Yeah, God. Remember when I had to kill all those spiders for you That just came to my mind. Oh my God. Do you remember that? I forgot about it until just this moment. That was crazy There were We say they're probably 40 to 50 spiders and that's not exaggeration, right? We stayed at an Airbnb in Amsterdam. Yeah on like a on a body of water Yes, I wanted to swim. Yes, and you did and you said can you come up to my room? And I said what for and you said the spiders and I said, huh? I go up there. There are spiders lining the walls Living was crawling But were you impressed with how calm I was? You weren't I You have a revisionist I was shaking. No, Zoe. I feel like I wouldn't know like this Hey Caleb, can you come upstairs and just check on something for me? Yeah. Do you want to see what I saw? Okay, you beat me. I'll beat you. Okay Caleb Can you give us yours for a second or two? I check on something for me Thank you. You know, it's not a huge but right people will know the difference There's a twitch. There's a rattling radiating fear It's the way I would have expected you to come down if there was a man in the closet I wouldn't be like Caleb come upstairs. Okay. Um, I killed them. No, I that actually speaks to Sort of my general demeanor in my life. It's like I believe I'm calm and I'm actually like hey Then I messaged the host I messaged the host and I said hey Not trying to be crazy or anything, but we've had to kill so many spiders I'm wondering if maybe you send someone she goes She goes oh, yeah, we sent a guy over for that, but it's a it's a new build and the ecology is still kind of getting figured out So there's just gonna be a lot of spiders Maybe something we put in the listing you but I feel like you pushed back. I did and you said like this is absolutely unacceptable That's crazy. We paid a lot of money to stay here. I don't know if they ended up doing anything for us I don't think they did anything for us. Yeah, but I at least said my piece you did and that's what I love about you You did in the afterwards. You're like actually. I don't care. Yeah I was like, you know what fuck it. We actually like these spiders. I'm going for a swim. I first of all, I have COVID Our brain fog there were probably no spiders I have COVID. I've killed most of spiders. I'm going for a COVID swim if anybody needs me We were I mean, I do have a thing with spiders where I sort of like to I don't like to, but I accept them as my like cohabitants. Not me. You don't not me And that's why I called you up because I can't kill I can't kill a spider. They fear me. I don't care what they're doing I know they're eating the flies. Don't care. No So what's so true to you? You didn't think of one you know, no, I did I well it's sort of in line with what we've been talking about And Rob Roush kind of that's the snake wrangler He sort of brings me here too. I do think it's like the end I hope that for just the community at large. It's sort of the end of the era of the fuckboy. Yeah, that's my that's what I that's what so true to me I believe it is the end. No, in your history. You better hope it's the end of the era of the fuck. They Well, I was gonna say I've seen situations you find yourself in Fuck fuck boys. I've had long not been the problem Are the greatest offenders? Neither boys nor girls Fuck you need to champion the abolition of the fuck they is I would say it's I don't know if it's the end of the fuck they That's the problem. No the fuck them will continue to be a problem. The fuck them are still fucking them. Yeah, but the but the fuck boys I think they're out to pastor you think so. I think they might be I think Timo Tay has sort of like he's ushering them out Yeah, but you're a huge fan of his huge. Yeah, so it's a hard time for me I can't weigh in on the discourse about me will not and we're not getting into it. We will not get into it But I'm just say this. I don't give a fuck me neither like there's been like five crises lately that I'm like I five like big Internet moments that I'm like You you've got to be kidding me with this. We care about this. I know I can't believe it and shout out to Ballet and opera But I will say we're not gonna talk about it. We're not even gonna go there. It's so dumb. I don't care But I will say that I think let like Yeah, he was sort of the the flag bear was he Absolutely, I thought he was say I thought he was viewed as such a like sweet artsy boy I didn't know he was you does like a fuck boy. Oh, she's a fuck them. He's a fuck them. He's a fuck them. He's the he's the fuck them to be charming. They them reveal My so true. I'm so true Yeah, he doesn't win the Oscar and he goes, you know what? Fuck it. I they them what now That's his that's how he gets out of his his soft cancellation. Yeah. Yeah, also cancel I mean with the bar for canceling. I thought we were past this. Yeah, I thought we were past canceling people over nothing He's not canceling. I know he's not but even the even anyone caring. I know. I just was like oh my god The huge but I need here's what I'm saying. I mean it's not about the that specific issue. No I need most of the people on the internet. Yeah Very quickly to go Outside that's right and find a real problem. I want you to find a real problem to have I want you to find a real problem to have. I want you to pick something that's going on. There's plenty to pick from I want you to pick one of the real problems that exists. Okay, and I want you to get as excited about that as you are about this dumb Fucking shit that you get mad about about your little people in your phone that you look but don't you think That and this is the gossip in me say it We need frivolous gossip in order to cope with how horrific the actual world is gossip. It should be funny and lighthearted and fun correct It shouldn't be like it shouldn't be genuine Screeds and thought pieces about I know I know about something like that. That's not to me It's like it needs to retreat the problem is yes We do need frivolous gossip right now more than ever. Yes, not more than ever. We need silly frivolous gossip I'm not gonna say what but there was a really fun one recently that I'll talk to you about off camera that I've kind of caught some heat about We mentioned it on the show There's there's some fun gossip about celebrities that I think we can have a lot of fun with the couple with the coldplay concert Oh, yeah people were upset People carried people came out of course you love cheating. I was like I bet they're having the night of the fucking lives I mean imagine to eat the coldplay concert. I bet they had the fucking time of their lives It's not the point there's a New York Times article about I know you know, it's like this is insanity get real problems now I'm running get real problems now get real problems now. Yes And challenge is your view on kill up here and I prove this message It's insane to me. It's it's absolutely insane. But guess what what have a game for you Speaking of frivolity. Yeah, we're gonna play a game. It's called true false Uh, guess what Zoe? I'm gonna read you 15 statements You're gonna tell me as quick as you can if what I just said was true or false. Okay, if you get ten or more correct We're gonna give you 50 us dollars unbelievable. Yes. You ready? Okay, it's quick as you can there have been two theatrically released pushing boots movies True true. The toilet plunger was invented in 1774 True false 1874 the sea and towers the tallest structure in Canada True true. I'll have teeth True false Hearing that F was so painful Edward R. Murrow high school's colors are green and silver You know that I don't have colors false false green and white flagstaff is the capital of Arizona. Oh, no Oh, no God people think I'm smart False false it's phoenix phoenix Susan surrender Susan sarandon is an avid supporter of ping pong True true the zoom is older than the blackberry The what the zoom? The zoom the zoom is older than the blackberry. I don't know what the zoom is False false the Grammy Awards got their name from the gramophone True true your 53 players on an act of NFL roster. Oh, brother. 53. Say answer, Zoe. I can't. You have to. I'm frozen in fear. Oh, that's true. Identical twins don't have the same fingerprint. Oh my god. I'm interested in this. True. It's true. Wally Pops were named after a racehorse. I love Wally Pops. Answer the question. You're saying true, true. The Amazon rivers, the largest river on Earth. True. False. It's the Nile. Fuck sloths can hold their breath longer than dolphins. True. It's true. Okay. NYU was founded by Stanwood Colch. False. False. Albert Galaton. Chance how to do. 11. Wow! Zoe, you're $50 rich or how do you feel? I feel on top of the world. I love you so much. Do you want to tell people where they can find you, how they can support you, et cetera? At Zoe Lister Jones on the gram. And I think that's it. I love them. Yeah. I love that. I love you. Thanks for doing it. 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