Zoe Kazan on Making ‘East of Eden’

[MUSIC] I need support staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. >> Hello, and welcome to the Watch, the special edition of the pod today. It's just me and it's just me and Zoe Kazant. We did the Netflix adaptation of East of Eden, John Steinbeck's East of Eden. The seven episode series is streaming now. Andy and I have been talking about it over the last couple of weeks. It's been a beguiling and intoxicating experience, getting to see this book through her eyes, and to watch these performances from Florence Pugh and Christopher Abbott and the company. It's just been fantastic. So I wanted to talk to the creator of the series and see what she thought about it now that it was out into the world to how this experience has been for her. As somebody who has a decades-long relationship to the text, a family connection to the text and also such a deep connection to the series itself, which she's been working on for the better part of a decade. I think what she did was a monumental work of adaptation. So I really wanted to get into the weeds with her about how one goes about killing their darlings when you're going through a massive text like Steinbeck's novel, and exercising some major plot points, changing some perspectives, finding the voice of the show, finding the performance voice of the show. Zoe was so articulate and wonderful and vulnerable and open with me talking about the series and what it means to her, and it honestly makes me feel closer to the series itself, which is a rare occurrence when you're talking to creators. Not that there's a right or wrong way to talk about your art, but you can tell that this really meant quite a bit to her. As does Lonesome Dove, which we talked about at the end of the conversation. Thanks for listening and enjoy my interview with Zoe Kassan. Zoe, thank you so much for joining me on the watch. Andy and I have been really like pretty insourciled by this series, and it's just a great accomplishment. So I just wanted to congratulate you for one thing. And most of the press I've read from you and studied the interviews, it's all been pre-release promo. So I wanted to ask you how it feels to have this out in the world in totality and people are receiving it and talking about it and it's living with them. So what's it like for you? Are you somebody who watches her own acting work? Do you have a different relationship to the stuff that you've written once it's out? Yeah, I do. I mean, I think what the acting work had so different because somebody else is editing it. So you're getting this nice year-long, sometimes two-year-long break between making it and having it come out. And there's also some uncanny experience of like, this has been in someone else's hands and someone else chose which takes of mine to use. And like, on this, I didn't finish post-production until March. Wow. I've been like, I got like a tiny breather but basically went right back into press. I've been working on this. I started this six years ago, almost seven years ago. And like, I keep, I know this is going to sound really cheesy, but like, I remember when my daughter, my first child was born, people would come over and hold her and I would burst into tears. Because if someone else was holding my baby, I could see my baby. Whereas if she put my arms, it was like so overwhelming to be her mother that like, she would just, it was like I couldn't see her. Yeah. And then it's like a filter and I could see her. And that's a little bit how I feel right now, which is like, I'm trying to put myself on a real, like, strict mental health. Don't read reviews. Don't read what people are saying. Like, I'm trying to be really strict with myself. But when I peak, I'm like, even seeing people disagree with me about something. I feel like there's something really beautiful about it because reading is so subjective. Yeah. Everyone is coming to this with their own read of this material. And sometimes it feels like someone is really seeing what I'm seeing, but even when there's a little tension between the two things that we see, it helps me see what I've made better. I don't know. That's been a really productive feeling for me. That's amazing. I mean, I can imagine if this book has been in your life for decades and this project has been in your life for almost 10 years and you know, you're basically the experience of dropping this thing all at once and people are either able to watch it in two nights or two months. That's really overwhelming. Yeah. That's the thing that I can't get my brain around at all is that I'm like, oh, like, I guess somebody, I guess somebody could watch this in the first seven hours that exists in the world. And like, I don't know. It's a little like that when that reporter had worked for all that time on that thing. And then just to eat you did it out. Just to eat it out. I think you have a little bit like that. Yeah. You just used to beaten it out. So totally. Totally. I don't know. I mean, like, I think that's the hard thing about letting go of anything that you make is that you have no control or how people watch it, how people receive it. Like, I think, you know, this has been in a lot of ways really warmly received and a lot of people are watching it and coming from like a tiny and dependent film and theater background where like, I think probably hundreds of people saw my place. It feels really different to like, you know, have people actually watch it. It feels good. Do you remember a moment early on in production, whether it was pre-production or actually on set, that was like your first pinch me moment of like, oh my god, that's Kathy or, oh my god, like, that's King City or whatever it might have been that you were just like, I can't believe that this thing that's been living in my brain is now happening in front of me. A great question. I mean, during the camera test, we, like, that was a real moment, getting to see them all on their costumes and with under the lights and everything for the first time, but weirdly, the thing that comes to mind for me is that like, I know this is, this goes sound really dark and terrible, but so in the second episode, there's that scene where Mr. Edwards runs after her and beats the hell out of her at a Kathy and I had, that had been a really hard scene for me to write. It's one of the few scenes that I never went back and rewrote. Personally, because I knew that stunts was going to have a lot to do with it, but partially because like, I have my own experiences of violence and I had a, the first person that I met at Yale was murdered by her ex-boyfriend because, yeah, yeah. And Lyric Benson. And I was on this road in New Zealand thinking about Lyric and thinking, I'm so lucky to be alive. And I'm so lucky to be here standing on this road. And like, I've been carrying this thing with me for so long, and I wasn't even aware that I was putting this part of myself into it. And it felt like, here we are doing this kind of scrappy thing. We have these stunt people and we've built this costume and we've built it multiple ways so that it can be torn and bloodied. And there are like six copies of this costume and all of these people have lit this in this beautiful way and shown up here in freaking New Zealand. And like, Moon is rising. And I just had this feeling of like, oh, this, actually my whole life is contained in this moment. And I don't know, little moments like that. We had a crew of like over 600 people and going into the workshops and seeing people tatting lace and dying garments to make them look as if they were sweat stained and painting that portrait of Cyrus Trask, which I made her, which I like, artist was so lovely and I kept being like, can you do it again? Can you change this part? And, you know, like, we, I just felt that like, I don't know. My favorite thing about making film and television is that it's a group sport. And so, like, there I was in that moment, having this very personal experience that's totally based in my own life experience. And at the same time, it's this part of this big machine with all these people bringing all their different art forms to it. Just having moments like that over and over again, what's really meaningful to me. I think it's probably also a testament to the role the book has probably played for you in terms of I've just been so touched by reading and watching you talk about east of Eden as a text. Because you're getting at something that I think lots of readers feel about their favorite books, which is that you can find yourself almost anywhere in them. And I feel that way about East of Eden. I feel that way about Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. You know, like, I can find it in a lot of my favorite reading experiences. You said something to the Hollywood reporter that I thought was fascinating about the idea of adaptation as an advanced form of reading. And I was wondering if I could ask you a little bit more about that. I'm fascinated by how adapting something changes your relationship to a text as a reader. Because I wonder whether or not you almost have to get rid of East of Eden as a favorite book once you start to interrogate it out. as something that you're gonna be adapting? - Maybe. I don't know. So my relation to this book is unlike almost any other relationship. I think there is no other book that I have this specific relationship with. - Sure. - It's to say that I fell in love with it so young and every time I've come back to it, it's offered something new for me and also this family connection, which was not the reason that I was drawn to the book but adds this meta-textual element, right? So like often I would, you know, Steinbeck called this the book. That's also sort of how I feel about it in some strange way, especially now. Having sunk six years in my life and doing it. - It better be the book. And in some ways like, I'm like, it's like first love or something. I'm like, well, I'll never feel this way again. Like I'll feel other way as I'll love things in other ways but like first love is first love, right? The way that I was like describing adaptation to my daughter whose eight is like, I was like, imagine the Mona Lisa, a painting, everyone knows. And if you gave someone seven tiny frames like the size of an index card and told them frame the most important parts of the painting, like we would probably all put a frame around her mouth. We'd probably all put a frame around at least one of her eyes. But after that, where you place those frames is like incredibly subjective. And it has everything to do with like who you are as a reader, what you're bringing to the text, what only you would bring to the text, right? Like there would be people that would just do the landscape in the back. And that would be valid. Like that's a valid way of looking at that painting because like every way of looking at the painting is valid, right? I think the thing about working on this for so long is that I had a lot of time to like react to what I was doing in other episodes. That's the thing that I feel like really grateful for that was like completely a product of when I was adapting this like the fact that it was a pandemic. I got all this time to like think about, okay, well, if I'm giving this language to Kathy, how do I have to balance this someplace else? I also think this is a really specific kind of book for adaptation because it's too big to adapt all of. Paul and I adapted this book wildlife by Richard Ford together and that book is very slim. And like we're basically using the whole book. And like it's really much more a matter of how do you translate his prose into images into the blog and less of like what do you pick and choose? But like I'm not transcribing like a third of that book. Right. And I had to really make peace with the fact that like my book, my version of "East of Eden", my book, right, is going to be different than this series. And that's a feature not a blog. Yeah, I mean, obviously that comes with the decision to, I guess, excise or not use the Hamilton side of things. Was there ever a dream scenario where it was a more complete or a more to tat like it's every page and it's 16 episodes or whatever it was going to be? I think my dream was to interweave the two storylines. And when I got into the actual work of adaptation, it became clear to me that if I did that, it was going to be like a survey course of American history. And I think every adaptation is like if you, if we just wanted a transcription, now we could go to a chat GPT for that, right? Yeah. I think that the thing that's wonderful about an adaptation is that it's through human lens. Like, it's how that person reads the book or those people read the book. That said, like, the Hamilton storyline was really hard to let go of. And I had to find ways to make peace with that by being like the themes that are inside of the Hamilton storyline will still be present in this thing. And now, if someone goes and reads the book after they see the series, they will still have so much treasure to find that was a series. Yeah. If you respond to Karen Heinz's performance, you're in a lot of luck if you read the book. When you were adapting it, I'm fascinated by the idea, especially with a book that you have such a deep personal relationship with whether you open final draft and start with the first page of East of Eden, or are there scenes that you wrote way in advance? Are there scenes that were part of like writing exercises for you? Was it a linear process or was it kind of all over the place? So I wrote this on assignment, right, like, I got hired to do this by the people that had the rights who were on the Hamilton storyline season. So they hired me to write the first two episodes. So I knew that I was starting there. I went through the book, I reread the whole book, and then for every episode, I would just reread till the portion, until the end of that episode, basically. So every time I would restart at the top of the book and read through, and what that allowed me to do was find things that I hadn't used and use them elsewhere, basically. But when I started, I started like two documents. One was an episode, one document, and one was an episode, two document, because I think the book worked so much in dialectics. And like, episode one was going to be very different than episode two. So when I first got hired to do this, I was like, can I turn in both drafts, like, both episodes together instead of giving you one and then the other, because I think you'll see a lot better what I'm going to be doing. But like, episode one used to start with a really different scene that's no longer even in the series. And like, I don't know, there was like a lot of stuff. And also, for budget reasons, I ended up having to cut like 10 pages out of every episode, plus cut of the episode, really late in the development process. So like, there's a lot that was there that isn't there anymore. I do think like, yeah, you sort of, I mean, for me, I started at the beginning. I knew where every episode would leave off. Like, I had, I don't actually like to outline, but I had broken the book. Like, I had, I knew what chunks belonged where and where each episode would end. Do you read generally and start to see things through a camera viewfinder as you're reading? Like, when you see imagery, like, yeah, is that a gift or a curse, you think? I think it's a gift. Yeah, I think so, yeah. I mean, I think I'm also like, you know, I've written four plays. And I think that my brain does not naturally come up with stage pictures. Like, it is much harder for me to write a play than it is for me to write a screenplay. I think the way that I understand writing a screenplay is thinking in pictures and then writing them down. And like, if I'm not thinking in pictures, I know something is wrong. Like, I know that I'm not ready to write the thing yet or that like, my tack on the scene is wrong. Or like, that's kind of like a north star for me. There are like more and less cinematic writers. Like, when I read Tolstoy and like, I can't believe he's writing this before really, like, he would have seen a movie. Like, I can't believe if he's before the advent of the film camera because the way that he writes feels like a person directing a film to me. And then there are books like Wild Life, which has so little imagery on it, where you're like, really having to be like, I am supplying pictures in my mind that these words are suggesting to me. I don't know. I love reading so much. I love the fact that like, you read a book. I read a book. We each got a different picture. Yeah. I mean, I think the turning point for me was probably when I read No Country. And when I saw the movie, I was almost spooked. I was like, that's what it looks like. You know what I mean? Like, you can have an experience where you're almost, you can almost overly direct a story while you're reading it because you start to think like, oh, you know, like, I bet this would be Tommy Lee Jones. And then it's Tommy Lee Jones. And you're like, of course, a Tommy Lee Jones. Like, look at that. Like, so I've always had this thing in the back of my mind. The Tolstoy thing is so fascinating. I mean, I would love to go back and know how novels changed after film editing is invented. And like, whether cross-cutting becomes like more prevalent in novels then. I'm curious whether or not there were any adaptation specifically that inspired you. Things that you had seen that you were like, I'm particularly moved or enchanted by like the choices that this person made, the way that it was rendered because it feels fresh, but it also feels like it's paying tribute to the source material. Yeah, I mean, the ice storm is always a movie I come back to. I don't know if you have ever read the Rick Moody books, but it's incredibly different than the film. But it's also a really faithful adaptation. It's also another great one where like, the book is really different than the movie, but the movie has the book inside of it. Those aren't like direct inspirations for this. I think I had a picture in my mind of, you know, I read this book at 15, and I hadn't seen any of my grandfather's films at that point. And when I saw the film, I was so surprised because so much of what I loved about the book wasn't in it. Yeah. And in that moment, I had a really clear picture in my mind of like, not exactly this, but like, Someone someday has to do the thing that I see. in my head. And like, I think that that percolated for like 20 years. You know, and so a lot of it was like more incoey. Like not direct. I mean, like I referenced like days of heaven and Hitchcock's film notorious and clued and the deer hunter. Like these were like the festival of American cinema tech was wonderful. Yeah, I saw the programming for that. Yeah. So a lot of those movies were movies that I had brought up particularly with our directors and DPs of like, Steelish Fought. Like what I'm stealing from. But I think it was so much itself to me that I wasn't really like, but those are two adaptations I love. I also love like Cabaret. I think that's a totally brilliant adaptation. Both of the book and of the stage play. You know, Andy and I were talking about the last batch of episodes the other day. And I I can't remember when I brought it up. But I had said that this series reminded me in a very positive way of the version of Howard's End that Kenneth Lonergan did a few years ago. I never saw that. It was great. I love the old Howard's End. Yeah. I love the the immersion. I agree. Howard's End. Which is fantastic. A rendition of it. And this was just like, I think it was about finding themes in the work that felt incredibly contemporary and incredibly present without hammering it too hard and without being like just like today, right? And making it feel very not modern because it's modern, but modern because like this is still something that people think about all the time. And having the stuff that was maybe a little bit more period like it's background and it's there, but it's not like the main focus of the storytelling. So I really, I thought that you did that because that was a thing that I, it was a thing that I said like from my first pitch all the way through production. And I would say it to every department head and to our directors and like that we want everything to be period appropriate. But we can't have people walking away from this talking about the costumes and the hairstyles. But like all of that period detail has to just exist for these people the way that our world exists for us. So I'm glad it's in that way to you. Yeah, I mean, I don't, did you shoot this all at Magic Hour? Like this was not so like the way it looks is so specific. And what I loved about it was I don't necessarily need it to be a postcard of Salinas from the turn of the century. I just need it to look like something like it needs to have a specificity. And what did you see in the, in the locations that you, you wound up traveling to that brought that out? Wow, we really had to, yeah, that's such a nice thing to say. We had incredible location people who worked so hard. And I'm, I'm so, I really, really, really didn't want to shoot this in New Zealand. I was really stubborn about like we have to shoot this in California. And it just wasn't a reality for us like it just was never going to happen. And so when I got on a plane to go to New Zealand, I think I went with a lot of trepidation. And over and over again in this process, I've had to learn that like just because I feel like it's not going to be right doesn't mean that it's not going to be right. Like it's found so many silver linings and things that for seem to be obstacles. And this was one of them where like New Zealand actually turned out to be I think in some ways the only place we could have done this, like not just because of the landscapes, but because there was a huge influx of money right at the Victorian era there with the gold rush. And then because like there was no other wave of money that came through in the same way, a lot of those structures are still standing. Yeah. So we had just towns full of Victorian architecture that was intact. And like historic homes that we could redress or that were dressed completely appropriately for us. And we just had to pull a couple things out like. And then also Peter Jackson has like created multiple generations of artisans like in New Zealand that are so hardworking and take for granted that like they're going to have to work harder because it's harder to get costumes there and it's harder to get props there. Like everything has to come on a boat and we're on an airplane and so just people that are really willing to work really hard in this artisanal way and have so much skill. And like we had the best crew like yes we have incredible directors and incredible DPs and that's part of the reason that it looks beautiful and specific in that way that you're talking about. But it's also because the things that they were filling the frame were beautiful and specific. And like I mean I'm really I'm really grateful for the like village that created this. Yeah there's moments. I think there's one that's been circulating a lot because people are pointing to it as like oh look at these two great performers really it's top of their game but it's it's Kathy and Charles as he's sort of like hanging tobacco leaves or whatever he's doing and she's just like I've brought you dinner but you and I don't I don't know what the hell the light was in that scene but it's it's just like these these two people look like they're acting on the moon. This is unbelievable but like it serves as such a beautiful moment of like in the twilight. These two people are kind of being real with each other here. That's partially like our director Garth Davis pushing to shoot it at that time of day. It's partially a Stewart-Dryberg RDP like lighting the hell out of it and extending that magic hour for us. It's partially like New Zealand at that time of year has a really long magic hour that was working in our favor. And it's also partially like inner I mean like we weren't allowed to plant tobacco. Tobacco is not a crop that they have in New Zealand and we could not bring those plants in. And so our our scenic department painted banana leaves and created leaves out of paper mache and made them look like they were dried tobacco leaves and then you know effects came in and made them even more tobacco. More tobacco. Yeah. More tobacco. And then you have these two beautiful actors like I don't know it's like one of those things where yeah that's one of my favorite scenes in the series. And part of the reason is that like I can see all of them and like Kirstie Cameron who did the costumes like the dress that Florence is wearing there is a dress that Adams Adam and Charles's mother wears in the first episode because I had said to her where is she getting her clothes at this time it would have been it would have been Alice Trasks clothes like who's now dead at this point and they've been keeping them in a trunk and like so we fit it to this other actress and it's big on her which is why she's like having to carry it like she has it sort of like scooped up at her in her arm at the beginning of that scene because she can't actually walk in it without lifting up the hem. Speaking of the performances you know there's a there the three main ones obviously like the powerhouse sort of Christopher and Mike and Florence and then these sort of very beautiful gentle performances like kind of bringing it with with with whom we and Kirin I was curious about working with the actors and finding the the same kind of energy that you're going to bring to the look of the production the writing of the production finding that kind of these people have like a naturalism that would fit in 2026 or 1956 or 1906 or whatever without it feeling um to modern but and also avoiding like any of the antiquated period piece kind of staging this what were the kind of conversations that you were having with those performers to find that that him book that everybody's saying from what a beautiful question I mean I honestly think a lot of it is in casting for me which is to say like I had Florence and mine from very early she came on very early in the process so I knew I was writing to her but I didn't have any other actors in mind and I didn't have anyone else that I was like writing toward Mike and Chris both are New York theater actors like Chris and I came up at about the same time and I had seen his work forever and I knew that we shared like a vocabulary and a taste level and I knew that like both of them liked the same kinds of things that I liked like which actually became a question that I asked yeah like when we were auditioning our young actors to play Kallen Aaron when we got pretty far into the process I asked to meet with our like top candidates and I was like who's acting do you like oh because I think it like it says a lot about what you're aiming toward and I don't know I I felt like really aligned with these guys in terms of how they think about their work and what's important to them we had incredible casting directors Ellen Lewis led a sort of international group of local casting directors to find all of these people and one of the greatest joys for me in this was getting to find so many actors whose were I hadn't known before. But then you're having conversations, like, especially in pre-production of, like, just making sure that you're on the same page. Like, I remember with Martha Plypton, who plays Faes so beautifully, I was like, I was like, I think about so much of this book, of this material as being like, about people trying to find a balance within themselves or not. But it's asking this question about the balance of all these forces inside ourselves, not just good and evil, but also masculine and feminine and what happens when a person becomes unbalanced. And I was like, I think Faes, almost toxically feminine. And I was like, this is what we're doing. Just because of timing, we had already started building costumes. We had already started building sets before we had cast that role. So I was like showing her swatches of, like, what the costumes were going to be in swatches of what the sets were. And like, having those conversations about, like, a person who has disavowed any of her, any young and sensed masculine energy, like, and who has given up agency because of that. And like, like, for that character, one of the things that I said to her was like, she has had to take care of so much. She's been the mad, most of this house, and she's been her own boss. And I think that this adductive thing that Kathy is offering her is to be taken care of. And like, I think she is attracted to that because she has been so strong and independent, not because she has been so infantilized in her life. And so like, having those kinds of, like, heady conversations ahead of time so that you're not on set going, like, trying to change that through adjustment. But getting into young and dying stuff, like, yeah. But also, like, I think if an actor has a conception of a character that's like vastly different than your own, you can get into, like, really terrible power struggles on set. Yeah. And I just never wanted to be in that position. Well, I think, I mean, I would imagine there are some episodes that I love that, I mean, I love the first episode and Tracey's in it for, you know, just that. And you're just like, he had to come in, Martha had to come in and do these episodes that aren't necessarily going to be like, who leads where you're going to watch this arc over the course of hours and hours. You just get this one shot to come out of the bullpen and it's tough. But it's also really funny because every actor, I mean, I love actors so much and having spent like 20 years as an actor and a good portion of that in the theater. Like, I've had so many conversations with actors. Um, but like, who in comes in and he has 10,000 questions about Lee and wants to go line by line through the script and interrogate every moment and like, you, you shut, like that is such a gift. And at the same time, another gift is having Tracey let's show. Do you have any questions? And he's like, no, do you want to see the house, and he's like, not really. Okay, what do you want to talk about? And he was like, how did you get the rights to this? That sounds like Tracey. I sometimes podcast with Tracey about old movies and stuff. So that does some, we reminisce it. Um, I, you know, who in Lee is somebody, I just, I would feel terrible if I let this podcast end without talking about his specifically um, departure and, um, the great try and what he does over that course of those two episodes. Um, I think in some ways like, you know, that's a character in the book that I liked, but did not probably think about deeply, you know, if I'm, if I'm being honest and the enormous like heart that he brings to this show and like, the soul that he becomes for this family that I think a lot of things have, have tried to rip the soul out of that family and he kind of acts as a furnace almost. And I, I just, I don't even know if I have a question. It's just like, I know that that, a lot of that was like, we have to think about what this person would be going through. And we know, you know, he plays such an instrumental role in this family. It kind of almost warrants more investigation. Can you tell me a little bit about writing the Lee character? Yeah. Well, you know, I think the surprise for me coming back to this book in my 30s, I was 36 when I started writing this. And I, I had a 18 month old child when I started writing this. She's eight now. I was shocked at how much identification I felt with Lee, who I think when I was a young person like registered to me as a grown-up in the book, and like, less interesting therefore than the teenage character, probably. And at 36, I was like, oh, I am Lee, like, or inside me or two wolves and one is caffeine, like, throw the babies in the well. And the other one is Lee is showing up every day and wiping their butts and teaching them how to eat and cook and care for themselves and care for others and trying to help them not be the worst versions of themselves. And I felt the dailyness of his care, like, I think, particularly having become a mother and like, how daily the work is, how every day you have to show up and be that kid's mother. And he really is apparent to these children. And I, so like, for one thing, like, what it was really important to me to have that montage that's an episode five of all of his work around the house, like, everything that it takes to run that house. And how that is folded in, like, every piece of it is folded into another. So he's caring for the kids as he's beating the vegetable gardens, as he's, he's making dinner as he's teaching them how to, you know, do their homework. Like, I think that there's this kind of lump of work that he's carrying around with him at all times. I think the book, I mean, I think Steinbeck really was a humanist. And I think that the book is a surprising portrait of an Asian American man, given the time that he was writing it in. I think there are things, there are elements of this that who may commented on that Alexander Chi, who I brought in to help me kind of explore these world in San Francisco, which is dispensed with within two pages in the book. Yeah, if this is going, he comes back and we never find out what has happened there. Alexander Chi and Henley both were surprised by the code's phishing scene where we first meet Leanne Samuel, both of them were shocked to find that in this book from 1953. And then in other places in the book, I see the kind of like, maybe inevitable, maybe not mid century white racism. Um, particularly in like descriptions of Lee's face. And I think for me, it felt like, okay, I need to honor the human, like the, the humanitarian impulse here, the like, the humanist impulse that is here and not worry about carrying too much of this other baggage. Yeah. And then also, it is important to know that Lee is existing in a world that is deeply racist. So like carrying in the share of character who calls him by racial slur, right? Yeah, that's an important element because without that, we can't, especially I think for a contemporary audience, understand in a deep way what he's facing every day. Um, I mean, I love both Hume Lee's perspective and Alexander cheese perspective were invaluable in this. I think for me personally, it was becoming apparent that really opened that door. Like, there's a moment in the series where Lee comes, it comes back and he tucks the children in and Cal is like, did your home and he's like, yeah, I came home. And that was a moment that I stole from my life when I had gone away to scout for this and I'd come back and my two-year-old had been not quite two-year-old had cried in the night and I'd come back while he was asleep and I went in there. So it was like the first time he had seen me, but we were in the dark and he like padded my whole face. Oh, man. It was me. And I like was like, okay, like the next morning and to make a computer like sat down was like adding scene like, yeah. I love the nuances of his relationship to different members of that family. I mean, I think it's in I think it's been intentional. No, no, it's in the scene when he is just describing what temporal means and yeah, and he's talking to Samuel and Cal is like kind of off to the side. I believe that's when Cal is like, he doesn't talk to me like that. You know, he, he almost feels like Adam is off to the side. Yeah, Adam is off to the side and sorry, and Adam says, yeah, well, that's from the book. Yeah, yeah, but I just love the way Abbott played that because I was like, this is, it gives just so much like geometry to the relationship of he's like, you're going to take care of my kids, but I'm still actually a little annoyed that you don't come to me for this kind of like intellectually rigorous conversation, even though I give nothing to anyone else. I think what are the things that's funny about like, and I have said this over and over again in our press, but like, I think there are things that that are true in the book too, like that scene or like, there's this moment in the book where Cal's been arrested and brought home and from the fan-tan game and Adam says, I've been a terrible father to you and he says, no, you haven't and he says, [BLANK_AUDIO] well, how would you know, you've never had any other kind. And like to have that on the page is one thing. When you put bodies in space and one of those bodies in the room is Lee, who is clearly a father to this boy, like then all of a sudden you can see something that you can't see maybe is clearly on the page. And I don't know, I just think that there's something so magical about that transmutation. Like, I don't know, I never get over it. Like you put bodies in space and you put a camera there with them and you can see all kinds of things that you can't see any other way. Yeah, I mean, I think that the greatest compliment I could give to you about that is just the last scene of the show, which I think transcends kind of like even my wildest imagination of how that would feel to see that rendered on screen. So I would be remiss as we hear at the pot are very, very ardent, lo and some dove fans. And I just want to ask you, why are you doing this to yourself after he used to be? (laughing) - Well, I just want to say, I would like, cut your hand off to switch places with you. But after hearing you talk about used to be eaten and like the enormous weight you were carrying with this. - Yeah. - It's like, can we do wildlife too? Still wild? - I don't know. (laughing) - Still wild. Oh my God, it's still wild after all. - So how's the forest fires out there or could you do something? (laughing) - It's such a good question. And it is the question I ask myself too. I'm like, do I really hate myself that much? I don't know, man. I always think about this line from angels in America where I think it's Lewis. He says I need something big to lift me up. I think after, so after I had my first kid, I realized like in the first months of her life, I was like, oh, every time I write from now on, I have to pay someone to take care of her. - Yeah. - And like, what is worth that to me? And it's, the answer is not always used to be eaten, but that is what gave me the impetus to reach out to my agents and be like, if the rights to used to eat never come up, can you please put me up for this? And I think I sort of had that feeling about Lonesome Dove where like, I had just read the book when I got the call being like, do you want a pitch on this? And I think I felt kind of crazy saying, yes, I want to pitch on this. Like, I was still in the early stages of post production and I knew I had, I mean, we had a full year of post. So like, I knew I had a big meal left there, but I don't know. I kind of, I love to touch the face of God. And it's like, you know, like, these are the, I love wrestling with a piece of text. I feel like kind of, in some weird way, drawn over and over to stories of the West, like not just in my writing work, but in my acting work of like, I think, there's something about people imagining a world that is completely different than the one that they live in that is very moving to me and also like, just sparks so much curiosity in me. I also think like, I'll create Westerns. It's really about death. Yeah. And facing yourself in the face of mortality and like, those characters are so rich. I don't know. I'm really like, it is so daunting and I am so scared. What healthy thing to be scared of? That's a great answer. If you were just like, yeah, like I could just knock out, like, you know, some chamber drama, but like, you would, like, is that worth, like leaving your kid for? No, I mean, like, nobody, if there was something, like if there was something that I felt that passionately about, it doesn't really matter the size of it, right? Like, it matters the passion for it. I have like six more tabs open on my final draft of like passion projects that probably will be years more in the making. So one could be the only thing I'm doing, but I don't know. I kind of asked myself, why not? I mean, you're, you're living the dream. To be able to, to be able to like, take on those characters and I think actually in the way that you'll probably be able to depict it, given how, how people read that book, I think actually matches to like watching this massive piece, maybe even at once, if not in big chunks, I think, I think it's going to be a credible, especially based on what we saw with these TV and Zoe. Thank you so much for joining me. It was really a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.