Ziwe: What's funny these days?

Hey there, it's Michelle Vassage. My podcast rule breakers is back for another season. When you are a trailblazer, do it, feel it. It's real talk with friends and stars who I call rebels. Sometimes it can look good, sometimes it can look a bit trashy. I just love it. In the new series, we speak to the likes of Adam Lambert. She is Snatch. Hello, Jake Scherz. Hi, how are you, Michelle? Jessie Ware, Katie Price, and Kesha. Hi, I'm Welcome. Honey, my podcast is so juicy. It's like the forbidden fruit. It can't resist. Michelle Vassage's rule breakers. Listen on BBC Sounds. BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts. Just let you know this episode does contain some strong language. If that's not for you right now, there are plenty of other episodes of out your service that you can listen to on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, it's Deweleeper and I'm thrilled to welcome you back to another episode of my podcast, Deweleeper, at your service. Today I'm joined by a guest who's perspective on comedy and all things funny and nothing short of exemplary. You may know Zee Wei for her biting Instagram live videos that went viral during the pandemic or for her thought provoking and laugh out loud interviews on her self-titled TV show. No matter how you know her, you've probably seen clips of a comedy go viral, which is how I first saw her incredibly funny work. When was the last time you said a racial slurred? Never, never, never. Never. Caroline, how are you? Never said the N word listening to a rap song. Be honest. OK, this is where you got me, though. I hate rap. I don't like rap. This is feeling really problematic and I would say racist. Why do you hate rap? No, I know, I know. It's really-- I don't like a lot. I also don't like classical music, so I feel like that balances it out. Like I hate Beethoven. My biggest problem is that I don't like rap. Your biggest problem is that you don't like rap and that you don't know that Beethoven is black, which is another problem of yours. Zee Wei's comedy truly knows no bounds. She has a remarkable ability to challenge societal norms and explore humans most uncharted territories, diving headfirst with her guests into topics like race, gender, politics, and so much more. She's so quick on her feet. And more than most performers knows what it means to find laughter in a world that's constantly evolving. She's a truly fearless writer, performer, and host who continues to push boundaries and challenge the status quo in every aspect of her work, including in a new book of essays, "Black Friend," which will be released this autumn. In our conversation, we discussed the role social media has played in shaping and changing comedy, how it felt to put celebrities in the hot sea and make them squam, and what it was like being canceled, both literally and metaphorically. So please welcome today's very special at your service guest, Zee Wei. Zee Wei, thank you so much for joining me today. I am so, so excited to have you on the show. Thank you for having me do my pleasure, my pleasure. I love your show, I love your book, which we're going to talk about today, a little bit more in detail. Thank you. You're such an iconic guest. And not only are you hilarious, but you've built this incredible career for yourself that includes your own talk show and a book, which is coming in autumn. And I guess what I first wanted to ask is, when did you first realize that you were funny? Honestly, I realized I was funny when I was maybe five years old. I was one of those annoying, I was really a well-behaved child. Like one of the Von Trapp's, I would like sit and be quiet. But then at school, I would rock out. I was like class clown. And so that was when I had a sense that I had charisma, but I didn't know that I could even be professionally funny until I was like an adult, well into college. It took me a while to find that path, but I've always had the same personality. I think sometimes you can tell by kids of what's going to come of them later down the line. It's either like, oh, they're going to have their own TV show, write their own book, or be really funny, or be on stage. Oh, they're going to go out of jail. This kid burns dogs and he is going to be in prison. It's one or the other, beyond actual comedians and entertainers. Who are some people in your life? Who have inspired you comedically? And what have you learned from them? I think my parents inspire me the most comedically because they're not American. They're Nigerian immigrants. And so every American experience that I would have would be one as my own. Like, wow, this is just the way it is. Like, this is how I'm growing up. And then through their lives, I would see that like, oh, this was not their childhood at all. And so even the way that they refer to things as like the remote control, it's like remote control. And like just different like euphemisms or jargon or just like ways of being like, I always wanted to do sleepovers. I was obsessed with the Olsen twins growing up. And they had the sleepover episode. And I wanted to pull it on at her with my twin. And my parents remember specifically saying like, why would you sleep over at someone's house when we have a house, like, or I would want to go camping. And they would say, why would you want to sleep outdoors? Like, that's why we left Nigeria. And so just experiencing the world through my eyes and also through their eyes really allowed me to have perspective that was like my perspective is not the only one that exists. And that makes me laugh. And that's what you see in my work. I absolutely love that. What I loved in your book while I was reading was also the creative process. And I thought it was really honest as well of how you have to just write a lot and write your way into something that's great. And sometimes it's OK to fail. And sometimes that kind of gets you to where you want to be essentially. And I'm a real firm believer in the 10,000 hours of just like, you have to just keep practicing and writing and being OK with being shit to then be really good at something. And you're someone who I think has mastered the 10,000 hours. Really? Yeah, I do. I think you're quite, I don't know, set in your own style. And you know exactly what you want. At least that's how I see it. How would you describe your comedy for my listeners? Like, I'm such a fan. But I'd love to hear how you see your work. I definitely have a strong POV. My comedy is very referential and aware, but really fresh. As a comedian, I pay homage to the people before me. And there's so much good work out there. And I'm constantly like using that information to make new work. So does that-- I don't even know if that describes it. I mean, it's sarcastic, it's satirical, it's bombastic. But I put it in a package that's like a brad style. You know, it has to be digestible. So it's cute, and she wears pink, and she has her little Y2K bun. But she has a lot to say. Yeah, I love that. They've been hustling and working for 10 years. It's kind of like that, well, more probably. But it's like that. What people see as overnight success is something that's been prepared for a long time. And you've been working in the entertainment business now for so long. But you really kind of blew up during the pandemic. Yeah, how weird. And you'd host these hilarious Instagram live interviews with celebrities where you'd ask them in your own words, trap questions. And then you and the thousands of people that were tuning in would sit back and just watch them squirm. Where did you come up with that idea for the pandemic show? And what was that experience like? I mean, for the pandemic show specifically, we all traumatized where one week randomly we were locked inside our house, never to go outside again. And everyone was always going live. And so I thought I should also go live as well. And I just fell into the process of like interviewing people because I had had a web series before I loved it. It was the easiest work of all the work I could do. I just love talking to people. And so I just started doing a little show on IG live every Thursday at 8. And it would be 30 viewers and 50 viewers and 100 viewers and like 1,000 then it'd go up and up and up. But it started really slowly because I was deeply traumatized by the world. No, it's really cool. And I mean, it was probably interesting coming back out post-pandemic and kind of seeing, I guess, reaping the benefits of like all the work that you'd been doing while you were at home. And on your Instagram show, it kind of felt like a lot of the guests may not have been as in on the joke as they were on your television series, maybe, you know. So how was the show received? And did you get any backlash when you made the celebs quam? Oh gosh. There was such a weird, interesting time because everyone was sort of in their listening and learning era. So everyone was open to the idea that we were all imperfect and we had much to observe about the world. So yeah, maybe there were some guests that weren't so in on the joke. But I tried my best to brief them and let them know. These are the questions I always ask. Like, how many black friends do you have? Like, let me know. This is going to come up. Conversely, the showtime show, they were really prepared. But some people don't care. I remember Fran Lieberwitz was a guest that we interviewed on that show. And she doesn't have the internet. So we had a producer come to her house with my YouTube links and show her YouTube clips. No way. And she-- yeah, yeah. And then she was like, fine, I'll do the show, but I won't do any games. And we're like, OK, friend, whatever. And then she gets on set. And then she's like, we have to make it quick. I have dinner with Martin Scorsese. And we're like-- Of course. Like, whatever. It was like 10 AM. And then we spoke for so long. We had a two hour conversation where she had so much fun. And we bonded. But yeah, I think that the persona is scarier. But on a one-on-one conversation, I really try to create a healthy environment because I consider it a scene between two people. And it's like, I can't make my work without the trust and respect of the person I'm sitting across from. And vice versa. So yeah, completely. I think it also just kind of works on the art of confrontation. I think sometimes that's really good. And that's kind of one of the things that I loved about your Instagram live show was like, you use the medium of social media, which is often a place of confrontation, to have these kind of got just style confrontational interviews with guests. Being such a part of the movement yourself, how have you noticed social media changing, or influencing comedy over the past few years? I mean, I think that there are so many answers to that question because on the one hand, it's offered people to skip the gatekeepers. And I've done both hustles, right? So I was like a writing assistant and then became like a staff writer and then got a job as like a whatever the one above staff writer is. I don't even remember. And then I had my own show and then I was EP. So I came through the ranks of traditional television after interning for free at the onion versus like online, it's so much easier to just like put your work out there and have people respond to your work. And then boom, you're the next thing. So I've done both tracks and the internet really allows you to skip the like gatekeeping elements of it. Conversely, the internet is so didactic. It is so like a super left or super right that it really does foster antagonism. Is that good for comedies, that bad for comedy? It depends on your point of view or how you're able to like process how strongly polarized people are. Yeah, it's kind of fun because you get like an interesting reaction. I think that's what people feed off the most. I think on social media is like they love something that's kind of out the norm. You're already pushing boundaries. And I think the thing about your style of comedy and I guess correct me if I'm wrong is that although you're the one asking the questions, it's really your guests that are leaving themselves out to dry. Does that actual interview process make it less intimidating for you? And does that mean that there's ultimately no line that you're not willing to cross? You know what's funny is I am so intimidated by every guest and everyone is also afraid of me. So we're just two like scaredy cats. Like what is she going to say? But I find like interviews in general are awkward like even when you think of like Howard Stern or like Andy Cohen or Oprah. Like I'm so I'm always raised by nature and immigrants. And so in that culture it's like don't ask questions. Like you don't need to know like what my favorite orange shoe says like why do you want to know that? So you could put a spell on me. Like that's just the culture. And so for me growing up when any interview you're like why do you want to know this? What are you going to use this nefarious info for? So when you see interviews on TV, it's like so you're getting divorced. Like what trauma broke you and your husband up? And it's like oh my god, this is so intimate. Like people can hear this, right? And so part of the satire in my work is being like interviews are insane. Let us take a step back and realize that you're possible questions that we have to answer. And the premise of this is beyond. People will be like who are you dating? Like do you wear underwear? And it's like what? Ask me that. What is wrong with you? Like that's weird. Yeah totally. And they're not even kidding. Yeah, you learn to kind of roll with the punches. And I think that the rolling with the punches aspect makes it kind of fun because you keep people on your toes and I guess your guests do exactly the same to you. Because you know you improvise on the spot. You have no idea what they're going to say back. So you just kind of go back and forth with them, which I absolutely love. I mean, there's clearly an appetite because following your Instagram live series, you then did your TV show, Zeeway. And the Los Angeles time said, and I'm quoting here, that you're here to revolutionize late night. Wow, wow. Tell me what you went into that show hoping to achieve. Honestly, I just wanted to entertain myself. I am someone who grew up watching Regis and Kathy Lee Gifford. So I would watch like all of the daytime talk shows. And there are so many interview shows. And I wanted to have a space where I could talk to literally anyone in the interview feel bespoke, feel special and fresh, and like there's new information. Because sometimes you see interviews and you're like, oh, they told the story already, or like, you just get tired. And I never wanted to feel tired of the work that I was doing. And so I felt like I achieved that with my comedy on that show was just like, I was always at least surprising myself. And hopefully my audience. But that was definitely a goal. Definitely. What was some of your proudest or most funny moments on the show? People always ask me that. But it's like, how do you pick a favorite between like jet hanks on a medicine ball reciting the Joker monologue? And like Phoebe Bridgers, like a deer and headlights blinking for 14 minutes. Like how do you compare those, you know, Michael Che, just doubling down on every bad opinion he's ever had? You can't compare those ideas. I choose in between one of your children. You let you. Exactly. Like, obviously, I have a favorite child, but I would never say on the record. [MUSIC PLAYING] We'll be right back. The press girls are back. How you feeling today? Let me not get into that. [LAUGHTER] The relationship that I limits are back. If you call a bad self, we're going to see it. I mean, it's going to be consequences. It's going to be consequences. Your voiceners are back. I just wanted to tell you guys how that made me feel. And don't forget they've got your back. Trust me, guys, when I have a new lot, we'll be sick and tired. It's very emotional. Oh, yeah. Adiola Patron. I am that girl. Press. I want to talk a little bit about the writer's strike, because you're a member of the writer's guild of America and SAG. And I think I'd be remiss to not ask you about the strike and fellow WGA members that have been on for the past few months. And I guess for all the listeners at home who aren't plugged in, like, can you tell us what the strike is about? What writers are asking for? And why you think studios are bulking at your requests? So the writers are asking to be fairly compensated for their labor. That's the premise. And that exists on the level of residuals, and like what we get, because streaming has fundamentally changed the construct of the business, but also like the threats of AI. What does it mean to have AI write a script that was based on existing property? How does that work? Who gets getting paid? Who is a writer? And why are the studios bulking at our request? I don't know. I think it is an age-old dilemma of the people who do the labor not directly profiting off of that labor. We're watching a global labor movement. So it's clear that labor's across the board have enough. I don't want to get so political, but the fundamental issue is that we don't have enough money for our housing, for our food, for our college. We're riddled with debt, our generation, especially. So as long as it takes-- all right. Well, let's talk a little bit about comedy writing. And I think so many people in recent years have kind of been up in arms over issues that they feel like they can or can't say in their comedy anymore. And I guess it's been a huge, like, hot button issue for as long as people have been telling jokes. I actually talked about this topic a little bit with a previous guest of mine on my podcast, Trevor Noah last season. And I wonder, is there a line in comedy? And if so, where is it? I think that you have to say things with your chest, right? The premise of my show, like, you can look at it one way and say it's about being a good ally and like, answering the questions the right way. But there is no right way to answer my questions. Like, it's inherently a trap. So I come at it as, like, say it with your chest, what do you actually believe when you take away the pomp and circumstances of who you're supposed to be? So with that being said, I mean, you don't have to have a line. I have my own ethical lines of what I'm willing to cross. But everyone's our different. But whatever that is for you, you have to be able to stand by it. And when people call you out for being a terrible person, you have to be like, yeah, I'm a terrible person. Yeah, I said that. And you can't walk it back or be like, it's just a joke. Like, you have to stand by your words because they matter. So that's how I think of it. But there are certain things I won't joke about because it, like, depresses me. But if someone wrote a funny joke, I don't know. Maybe I'm like, it depends. Yeah. I guess it's objective. It's so subjective. I think a lot of people, like, you know, do their comedy in ways that it's relatable to them and their experience. And then some other people maybe get offended. Like we just said, it's all subjective. If you say something that's like ableist, like, transphobic, like racist, like, sexist, and people want to beat your ass, yeah. And that's what you deserve. You know, there's your life. If you don't want people to beat your ass, don't say things like that. Yeah. I don't know. How have you seen, like, comedy change? You know, as you've been a part of it professionally in the past decade and, like, what are some places that you'd still like it to change or to see change? The more it changes, the more it stays the same. Because I came up through the, like, alt comedy scene of Brooklyn, which is very weird because it's, like, the liberal version of comedy. Like, you can do whatever you want. But then it's also, like, a bunch of guys named Matt, who are in charge. The three Matt's are the gatekeepers. So that's not much different than what people experience maybe 10 years ago. I think the internet is the biggest change in comedy because it's like, well, I don't care if you don't like me. Like, I have a phone. I have a super computer right here in front of me. And I'm going to use it to talk to my three fans who might become six and might become nine. That's exponential growth to be specific. But, um, yeah, it's weird. It's a weird space. Yeah. Well, as I mentioned earlier, I read your book, Blackfriend. And I absolutely loved it. You've written it. And incredible and funny book. I mean, it's a moving, moving collection of essays. Thank you. But it is full of humour, too. Can you tell me about the inspiration for the book, the title, and the essays that made the cut? Totally. Oh, wow. So the inspiration for the book-- I mean, they're all based on my-- I have so many opinions and so many different life experiences that have formed my opinions. And so I wrote essays just-- honestly, started as free writing. This is what I think. And then I'd find why exactly I think these things. And they would all come from these weird childhood stories, or like the time I was at Barclays. And they got the wrong Black person on the Jumbo Tron. And it was so funny. Or like my childhood not being allowed to do sleepovers or whatever. And it turned into these spoke essays. Or being on wiki fee. I'm on wiki fee. You're on wiki fee. I read that essay. And I have the confess. I went on wiki fee to just look at-- What's your score? I liked about both of our ratings. What's your rating? Your rating's gone up since you wrote the essay. I did a horrible website, by the way. I hate fee. So while I was reading all the essay, I was very-- I felt seen. Anyway, let's not talk about fee. Carry on, carry on. Yes, yes. I had fun. I was on wiki fee one day and like spiraled. Like, absolutely wanted to unalive myself. And my rating was decent now. But it was like, blahpjana.com for. And so I was like, OK, well, why do I feel so bad about this website that rates my fee? And so I explored that in an essay. OK. Actually, why I wrote the book is to get my wiki fee to score up. Right, breaking up. Very important. Very important. While I was looking at your fee, I was like, this is way more research I've ever done for any of my podcast. I want to-- I hate this. I built my own prison. In your book, you write in a chapter called "Cancel Culture" about your experience of someone apparent, actually, who attempted to quote, unquote, cancel you during your television series. Can you tell my listeners a little bit about that experience? And about the conclusions you've since drawn about the hot topic, which is "Cancel Culture" whatever that actually is. So basically, someone showed a clip of my show, which is not for children, unless you are a kid that I love and support your support. But it's for adults. And she showed it in a ninth grade class, whatever. I think something ninth grade. And the teacher showed it to the group of students. And the mom pulled her kid out of the school, saying that it was propaganda against rich women, and that I was hateful. And then she sent an open letter, and then Megan Kelly got involved. And they got so mad at me just for telling hilarious iconic jokes and minding my business. So that's my experience of "Cancel Culture" is someone promoting my show, because all it did was actually make people more curious about who I was. Even there was, at one point, a Fox News banner that says, does Zeeway hate women. And it was so preposterous. Obviously, I love all of my female friends of every color, beige, and otherwise. But it didn't cancel me in that way. But yeah, it was weak. What does it kill you makes you stronger? They tried to kill. They couldn't-- I'm still here. So that is all to say. "Cancel Culture" is very strange and very weird. And ultimately, a little beneficial if you play it right. Well, actually, speaking of cancellations, pardon my so-quake. Earlier this year, a showtime canceled your self-titled show, which I thought was really, really sad. And I felt like I always saw so many clips of it online. How have you processed that actual cancellation and beyond the book, what are your next steps? And if you wanted to take this moment to make a big announcement, the floor is now all yours. So I am not someone that processes good news or bad news. That's honest about me. So it's like, if I hear something good, I'm like, cool. And if I hear something bad, I'm like, cool. And so as a result, I don't get to experience my highest highs, but as a result, I never experience low lows. And so I took that news and was like, I guess I got to figure something else out, right? And kind of in the same way that my Instagram live show started during the pandemic, my trauma response is just like, keep moving forward. Like, find another baby step, go in a direction, and do something. So I've responded to this by just interviewing people on my own. So I just went to Anadelvi's house, which was a pleasant. In that she's under house arrest, if you don't know, Anadelvi is the acclaimed alleged scammer who robbed a bunch of rich institutions and people allegedly, a lot of their money. And she lives on a five floor walk-up in East Village. And there's no AC, and it's at 90 degrees. It was actually the hottest summer in recorded history. And so we had an interview. And it was really wild and really funny. But it's like, I'm just going to put myself into scenarios and say, yes, to the things that peak my interest. And that was one of those things. So as far as like my big announcement is that I'm never going to stop possibly. - Well, domination. - Yeah, I've said this to you before. I'm not going to stop until I am president of the earth. - Oh, I love this. Well, this is, thank you so much. What an amazing note to end on. See, that's been so much fun. I've loved talking to you. Thank you so much for joining me. - May I say something? - Of course. - Do you believe that? I just want to thank you on behalf of all the altos out there for the work that you've done in representation. Because you are our queen. We love your music. You ride hard for your girls. And I think you're an icon. - Oh, wow. Thank you so much. Zeeway, I like to end my episodes by asking my guests for a list. - You talk so matter-of-factly in your book about how constant writing and even bad writing is easy to become a better writer. - Yeah. - What are five other tips that you would give someone who wants to pursue a creative career like yours? - Perspective is the most important advice I could ever give someone. Who are you? When I was coming up in comedy, I came through the onion and it's like, okay, right, like the onion voice. And then you see other comedians popping off your like, oh, like I want to sound like this comedian or that comedian or this is what, you know, Steve Martin did to be hot. And you have to have a sense of who are you? What makes you laugh? Because if you chase any other person's wave, you're gonna be derivative. But if you stay in your truth, like that's how you're going to be hot. Just like you are going to be the best at being yourself and no one else. I mean, work, work. When you don't feel like writing, work. You have to be able to get your art to a place where you can do it even when you don't feel like it. If you want it as a job. If you want it just to be like a cool wave, you got to trust fun, shout out. You don't have to do anything. But if it's your living, you have to be able to like do it on command. That's how I respect the professional element of my job. Speaking of professional, I love being on time. Like, I'm whack. Because I think respecting people's time is cool. And it's like, you're taught like it's not cool, but it's actually cool to be on time. I feel like it's the most important thing. Like, you don't want to waste other people's time. I think you actually have more leverage if you show up on time and you're respectful and you do things properly. And you're like, I'm here working with you and we're doing this together. And therefore it's really a collaboration. 100,000%. I agree with you 1,000%. Like, I cannot emphasize that these are your co-workers. Be nice. Another thing I would say is that you can find inspiration anywhere in the world. Like, you kind of have to be open to receiving your blessings, which is very Pisces spiritual. But it's like, sometimes I'll hear like a kid speaking on like a playground and I'll be like, what did they just say? And I just like take a mental note because it's like stuck out to me. And I'll come back to it. Like, I let the world influence me. I ask a lot of questions, especially if I'm talking to like friends, I'll be like, what do you like? What do you watch? How do you watch it? I just like to ingest a lot and have a good sense of the world around me because my perspective is my most valuable perspective, but it is not the only perspective. So it's like, just take the world in. Like, you're not in your little like echo chamber. Like, small graph. Okay, well, Zeeway, thank you so much. This has been absolutely amazing. I've loved, loved talking to you. And hopefully we can do this soon in person and we can hang out. - Thank you. - And yeah, you're amazing. And I'm excited for everybody to read your book. Black friend, Zeeway, this autumn, it's amazing. - Oh, yeah. - That's it. - Okay, I'm dancing. Thank you. Thank you for having me. - You're a star, you're an icon. - You are the moment you're an alto queen by Dabs. - Whoa. - I ended on a dab. Okay, bye. I'll be cool. - Bye. - Great. - Thank you so much to the iconic Zeeway for joining me on this week's At Your Service. I love getting the chance to speak with her and we'd love to know what you all thought as well. Zeeway was also gracious enough to give us an exclusive list of the things that made her laugh the most this year. You can find that on service95.com now. I'm thrilled to tell you that this week's newsletter is our French issue, which is filled with stories you won't want to miss, including a list of my personal Paris recommendations. It's available now on service95.com and be sure to subscribe to get each issue of our newsletter for free every Thursday, right when it's released. Thanks again for listening and see you next week for the season finale of At Your Service. Bye for now. - So join us for the podcast that's all about making new friends and have lots of fun on the way. And hopefully we stay friends too. - Beautiful. - Six degrees from Jamie and Spencer. - This is gonna be amazing. - Only on BBC Sounds.