Youth vs urgency: Liverpool’s transfer gamble

[Music] The Athletic FC [Music] [Music] All right, we had Tony Evans here at Walk On Yen, the verbal podcast from the Athletic. I met you with James Piers and Simon Hughes. Were the winter windows closed without much activity? Although the reds have a jockey on pre-order. A jockey on pre-order, as we say, to use the pun. We'll hear what Liverpool can expect from the young centre-back. To beat the strength of the squad, it's lots of disposal. We've got long forward to Manchester City's visit to Amfields. But first, let's have three wards. Sai, how are you this morning? I'm very well-thanks, Tony. I'm glad you're asking how I am these days. Very accommodating and warm and friendly. Well, yeah, you know, then the blows will aim at you later on in the show. We'll hear it so badly. Okay, okay. Well, my three wards are Greetings, Frank Shide Bottom. Greetings, Frogside Bottom. Think about it. Yes, yes, yes. It's a warm welcome to our friends from Manchester City. Yes, yes, hopefully it will be a very warm welcome. James! Good morning, Tony. I am going to go with Make It Hostile. I agree with you completely. Sorry, as hostile as your cat this morning, James. As hostile as me towards the cat. Yeah, we don't need to go into full details. But the cat's disgraced itself on the kitchen floor. I was held up slightly. Lessons have been learned, Bolt has promised. She will never do that again. And we'll try and open a new chapter. And we've moved from Doxham Prams to Katyn Nabis. Anyway, that's what James and Simon are saying is what you're thinking. Cavalmanahan. I'm feel be loud. Byron O'Neal. You go inform. Max Arthur. Build some momentum. I'm Mark Miles. I'm feels worries pep. To join our community of lessons on Facebook. Just search walk on podcast and join the group. Well, James, before your incidents with our feline friends, you would earn a slot this morning for a press conference. Yeah, he was in good spirits. As you'd imagine off the back of two wins and the rare luxury of some proper preparation time. For the visit of Manchester City on Sunday. I think he gave the players three days off, which I don't think anyone would begrudge them that after the way that the, the scheduler's been of late. But yeah, not an awful lot has changed. In terms of availability, he said Frimpong is still going to come to soon for him. That was expected. Joe Gomez, he said, should be back available. He's expecting him to be training fully by Saturday. But he kind of indicated, which isn't a great shock that that is more likely to be, you know, Gomez, a place on the bench and able to come on and help rather than. Get 90 minutes out of him. That would point, I think, probably to Zabazlight starting once again at right back, which as we talked about earlier on in the week, not his preference. But, yeah, needs need anyone's preference. No, no, not at all, not at all. But I just think against Manchester City, I think if you're not going to, I'd be absolutely flabbergasted if he put Wattaroendo there against against Manchester City. I think it's, it's one thing bringing him on in that role. Against Karabak, but, yeah, it's a, it's a different, different challenge. And then, yeah, slot was also asked about Curtis Jones' situation. Of course, there was that speculation before the window closed about, you know, a potential loan deal to enter, which to be honest, never made any sense whatsoever, because it was like for a star Liverpool don't even, you know, sanctioned, like loan deals with an option to buy, which was what was reported in some places. And I was told that evening that it was a complete non-starter. And slot basically confirming that they'd never had any intention of letting Curtis go, because he, as he said, you know, they're, the squad is stretched enough at the minute. And he said, you know, just look, Curtis has still started a lot of games, not every game, because there's big competition for those midfield spots. And, yeah, he didn't give anything away in terms of what it, you know, Curtis's kind of longer term future. We know he's inside the last 18 months of his deal now. And those discussions are continuing, I think, come the summer. There'll be a big decision to be made all round, because, of course, you know, Liverpool will not want to run the risk of losing him for nothing. Say, I know that you wanted, like most of us did, for them to do a bit of business in the transfer window to shore up the backline, particularly right back. Do you think it could welcome back to battles on Sunday? Not necessarily Sunday, but at some point, yes. I mean, a code on Sunday. You know, Manchester City, despite high claims in the last podcast about them, not being quite as good these days, or is she bleeding you castle away last night? Anyone can do that. We did that. Yeah, well, they can. They can. I guess, I guess so, but, you know, on their day still, obviously, they still got a lot of quality. I mean, that, let's not forget that the last time Liverpool played City at the earth, he had last year. And that was the area of the pitch where Liverpool really struggles. I felt, you know, Doku on the day had one of his better games and Liverpool just couldn't seem to make any progress up that side of the pitch. Now, I suppose we're job, but the thing with job as a liar is he's actually, you know, he's played well at right back. It's not the fact that he's, he can't play there. He's better in another area, the pitch and being very effective in that area. And equally, you know, he doesn't really want to play there. Now, you know, I like to see football as you just want to get the hands dirty, but I can sort of understand from his perspective, as I said the other day, why he'd soon be playing in the position that he's better in. Yeah, well, to be fair, it's not like he's saying I'm not playing there. He's saying I'm playing there. Yeah, I'm playing there. Yeah, that's, no, that's fair enough, actually, yeah, that's fair enough. Maybe I'm misrepresenting to sort of the way he frames it. But, you know, you know, he played there against Arsenal, didn't he? The stars of the season, Arsenal champions elect and played very well. I guess, you know, it's up to the other players in the central areas, like Alex McAllister, maybe Curtis Jones, to step up again. And I just think at some point, you know, Liverpool, it concerns me that they tried to shine a centre back in the show, where all eights didn't, and he's now gone to the team that they're playing on Sunday. Whether you think he is the right player or not is a separate discussion. Liverpool at that point clearly felt as though he was the solution in that position. And then the obviously identified that they do need a right back, but didn't get one in. So, it's not just me saying Liverpool clearly acknowledged it as well, and that, you know, they haven't managed to do it. Maybe they think they can get away with it, but they're going to require a little bit of a look, I think. Yeah, James just staying with this lot press conference. He talked about Jacque then. Did you have anything interesting to say about him? Mainly just how delighted he was that Liverpool managed to get that deal over the line, and, you know, said how it is in keeping with the club strategy of investing in youth. And players at the kind of the start of their journey, rather than buy in the, you know, the absolute finished article of someone, you know, in their late late 20s, early 30s, and also, you know, how delighted he was that they beat off some serious competition to get him, because we know that Chelsea thought he was going to be bound for Stanford Bridge. At one point, but, yeah, that kind of pathway that Liverpool were able to sell to him, I think it helps when, you know, I don't know how many, how many dozens of centre backs, Chelsea have got stockpiled there, but I think that probably counted against them in the grand scheme of things, when the pathway is a hell of a lot clearer, isn't it, for Jacque, looking at arriving this summer, and I'm sure, you know, that the hope will be that could potentially be partnering with Virgil Van Dyke next season, and we hope, you know, it'll be the kind of the air to his throne going forward, which obviously huge boots to fill. But, yeah, it's as good as Van Dyke still is, because I think he's had some unfair stick at times this season. He does turn 35 in July, and you have to have that succession plan in place. Yeah, I think none of us at WarCon can claim to be particularly expert on, you know, on jacque and talk about how good he is. But we do have a man who does know and can explain to us, it's Tom Williams, part of the totally football shows European football team. Tom, what do you think? Gianmi Jacque has got pretty much all the attributes that you would hope to find in a young centre back. He's tall, he's very quick, he reads the game very well, watching him play for a hand, you regularly see him stepping out from the back line to snuff out danger, or perhaps sliding in at the near post to cut out across. He's pretty good in one-on-one jewels, his pace is a massive help to him in that respect, and something you see quite a lot is him stepping across the path of an opposition player using the outside of his right foot to nudge the ball away. He's pretty good on the ball as well. He used to play in midfield in his formative years. It was only when he went on trial at a hand that he got moved to centre back. So there's a smoothness to him in possession. He passes the ball very well. Tom, so weaknesses, he doesn't have too many. Some of his former coaches have said that they think he could be more dominant in the air. I mean, his height gives him a real advantage, but he's not quite the kind of dominant aerial defender that you sometimes come across of Virgil Van Dyke, a Gabrielle perhaps. He's talked about needing to bring more controlled aggression to his game as well, but generally speaking, he looks like he has all the raw materials. Interesting, that's right. As we move into a league where there's more and more physicality, we've talked about this at length on the puzzle. He sounds if he needs to improve in that sort of area because, you know, when people are bumming the ball into the box, but Tom's told him to me. Well, so there's two things there. I think now Academy football. I mean, he hasn't played many games professional football. Academy football doesn't really test a player. Airily. That's just a reality. The game has played on the deck a lot. And I think, you know, that's where particularly for defenders, they've got a big jump to make when they come into the professional game. You know, the French League is still, I mean, I don't want to be definitive of this, but my impression is it's still a possession-based game in France. So coming into the Premier League at this moment in time, you know, there's been so much conversation about that. You know, he's obviously going to have to improve on that, but given his age and size, you would think that he can. I mean, I've just watched a Kent YouTube clip. It's like going back 20 years. And the one thing that stood out about him is his incredible long limbs. He gets in the way of a lot of things, which is a good trait to have as a footballer. Maybe that could translate his anticipation or reason of the game, but he manages to block a lot of crosses, a lot of thru balls. Just, well, you know, he's very big. He reminds me a little bit of, and this might not be the best commentation. He reminds me a little bit of Sebastian Quartes, when he first came in. We thought it was actually a good player, but. I was hoping for, like, Alan Hanson, you know, Phil Thompson. Oh, Sebastian Quartes, yeah. [laughter] Hey, did Alan Hanson or Phil Thompson score an overhead kick at QPR? That's all I'm saying. You know, he proved himself as quite a good player in the European game, probably came to Liverpool at the wrong time. And that, you know, actually, that was, you know, a reminder, actually, of how difficult it can be for a young player. Not just coming to the Premier League, coming to Liverpool, quite a significant summer. I mean, he came fresh from South America, you know, let's not forget. That's all. The point is, you know, it feels like Liverpool have pivoted back a bit to, like, 10 years ago when they were doing that thing of going and signing the best young players. Maybe not quite ready yet. You know, I don't think it's fair to expect them to come in and have the impact that somebody like Virgil Van Dyke had who had made two moves, you know, out of Holland, into Celtic, into Southampton. Just seemed ready for that next step at Liverpool. He's making a much, much bigger jump, coming in for a significant amount of money, not Van Dyke money, but still a lot of money. So, I mean, the point is, I think he'll have some adjustment period, but he will have to get up to speed pretty quickly for that amount of money. You're expecting a player who within 12 months will be a regular starter in the first team at Liverpool. James, let's talk about the money. You know, a lot of people have commented that it seems more than healthy a month for a kid that age. Yeah, I mean, I can understand that argument because you look at someone's kind of body of work and I think was he played 31 senior games for Renny's got a little bit more top flight experience than that in France when you factor in the lone spell he had at Clermont. But I just think it's where the market is in terms of there's a death of really good young centrebacks. We've seen that. You know, you look at how many, how many really, really top centrebacks can you, can you just roll off the tongue and they don't do that. Everyone's on the lookout for them. You know, I'd say United paid over the odds for Lenny Euro when he went there. So, I just think it's the market. It was what other clubs were prepared to pay. Ren were pretty clear on what the terms needed to be. And I think the fact that Liverpool have prepared to make him what the second most expensive centreback they've ever signed, Liverpool don't do things like this on a whim that we know how much work goes into it in terms of the data side of things, the scouting reports, the character references, speaking to people that know him better than anyone else. Of course, it's a gamble as such because he's still so young. But they do try and do everything they can to mitigate that risk. And everyone, I spoke to Liverpool early on in the week when I was putting the piece together about how the deal came about and why they wanted him so much. You know, they regard it as a massive coup. You know, the only shame was they couldn't get him in straight away. But, you know, that was a non-negotiable. Ren was very, very clear that this was always only going to be a deal that could be done now to get him in the summer because they want him for their own European qualification push. You're listening to Walk On. Say, what did you make of Richard Hughes? Oh, yeah. That round table that they add on Liverpool's YouTube channel. So, you know, controlled environment. Yes. No hostile questions. But Richard Hughes emphasized that recruitment has focused on young players who can develop BS without that before. Not quick fixes, even if it means short-term pain and a thinner squad. He said his relationship with Ernest Lutzer's Cloak's entrustin would sluckfully in charge of tactics and selection. Yeah, it doesn't excite me very much. I mean, yes, Liverpool won the league. At some extent, that does by your time, but not loads of time. I understand Liverpool have a really bit of a transitional period, but I just don't like the way that translates really. I mean, as I said last week and in the podcast earlier on this week, you know, the challenge for Liverpool is to maintain their success. Something they haven't done since the 1980s. That is the next challenge. Well, everybody wants the title for the first time in 30 years. You know, there's a massive relief. And then to be able to celebrate it last year was enormous as well. But Liverpool still haven't been able to retain the title. And I understand why they changed, you know, they made the changes last summer. But it can't go on for too long. You know, they have to get their act together. They spent a lot of money on these players who, you know, who soon enough will want to be winning trophies themselves. So there will come a point, you know, where the goodwill of winning the league last year will naturally wear off. That's why I think, you know, Schloss has earned the right to solve Liverpool's problems this season. But it doesn't go on forever. It's as simple as that. I mean, I would say I watched the interview. You know, it was a very clever reminder of some of the more recent successes. You know, lots of imagery and videos of winning the league. You know, it's easy to forget how you felt in that moment, you know, when the season has been as difficult as an as for Liverpool. But yeah, I mean, I would still like, you know, Richard used to be a bit more visible when it comes to these, you know, at a certain point of the season, he should automatically be made available now. That doesn't actually affect me or my job. It's not for me. It's for other journalists to allow, you know, to allow themselves to ask questions. I just think maybe given now that the structure has changed and it looks like it's changing for good. I think there needs to be a new arrangements around the figures who are making those decisions. You know, I just think it's only right that that happens. You know, if the Prime Minister suddenly found his position undermined by another role, would that person just not be allowed to talk or would that person just be hidden away? No, I just think, well, maybe he wasn't in politics. He says, but the point, the point is, he's a very significant figure who's making a lot of big decisions, rightly or wrongly. And it'd be useful for people to have an understanding of those processes on the record. I just think James, did you watch that round table? I did. I just think, you know, were you thinking to yourself, oh, I wish I could ask this, I wish you could ask that. I bet you threw up a dozen questions for you at least. A hundred questions, a thousand questions. Yeah, of course, of course, but I think whenever you sit down and watch something like that, you kind of know what to expect, don't you? And I thought for what it was, I quite enjoyed it. It was never going to be a grilling. It wasn't on, you know, transfers that have happened or transfers that haven't happened or, you know, drilling into whether, you know, slot making mistakes this season or where, where they're at in terms of, you know, backing him and all that. It's just, it's a link up with Sandra Charton in the shirt sponsor, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a glossy piece of content. I've done it many times before with, with, with other players and I thought for what it was, it was, it was a decent watch. I think what it did do was, you know, and I think it was very genuine because it backed up a lot of the things that, you know, I had spoken about and written in recent weeks about the fact that, you know, this job isn't under threat, regardless of, you know, the, the noise and, you know, people who want change, don't want to hear that and they don't believe it. And they think it's, you know, oh, the club are just telling you that and, you know, that's what they want you to believe. And it's like, you know, I just don't think Liverpool put out something like that. If it's even on the agenda, you know, making a, a managerial change and, and I think Richard Hughes was very genuine when he talked about the bond that he's got with slot and talking about how, you know, he, I think he, I think one of the quotes was once you believe you found the right person, then you believe in that person and you're not judging them every single day. And that, that resonated for me in terms of one of the, one of the standout quotes because, you know, clearly they do have that, that understanding. And I think I touched upon it the other week when we were talking about it, probably in the wake of losing to Bournemouth, you know, it was, I think it makes a big difference at Liverpool. The fact that slot is Hughes's man, you know, it wasn't like he got appointed from, you know, someone above him just said, no, you're having on a slot, get on with it. You know, Richard Hughes was basically tasked with, right, you go and find us, who you believe is the best man for the job. And that you think you can really work with on a daily basis. And that, that came across to me that clearly they are tight. And despite the struggles they've gone through this season and, you know, it was very emotive listening to them both talk about, you know, the Jotter situation and slot saying, you know, the most difficult team meeting he's ever held in his career was the one after they all came back. From the funeral in Portugal. Yeah, I think, I think things like that, just, you know, it does remind you of kind of the perspective that those guys on the inside of God in terms of everything that slots had to deal with. Yeah, I think it's important here because we've had a lot of feedback from the putt of people who seem to think that we should be saying slot out because they want slot out. Yeah. Now, I think there's a couple of things here. First of all, the three of us are generous as well as fans. So our cutie is to report what we hear, what we believe to be the truth. So no matter what we want as individuals, we will report what's happened at the club as we see it. The second thing is I think collectively all three of us are focusing include Nancy believe that slot bought himself a little bit of time by winning the league. I mean, to me, that seems self-evident. If you have a title, winning manager, then you don't say them midway through the next season unless you Chelsea and even then, you know, you think about it twice. We love hearing from you. And one person who got such recently as Clemens from Vienna. What a place Vienna. And he's had this to say dear gentlemen, gentlemen. I like him already. Come on. You know, that's your Tony. No, no, that's really not. No, no, anyway, even after two important results recently, I still have an issue with this way slot is using the squad. You'll be realised on a few players, leave another at the fringes. These players then look nervous once they start again, haven't not played any competitive football for so long. One example is Endo. The more he played recently, the more he looked like his normal self again. And with the young players, he never seems to give them a chance to bet in. Why would he only start making subs to three one against Newcastle after 80 minutes? It's only a matter of time until everything collapses and players are just too tired to compete in the big matches, while everyone else is completely out of form and confidence. Cheers from Vienna. Clemens. Well, sorry. What are your thoughts on that? It's an interesting point and I can understand it. And I agree with it to some extent, but I can understand why the manager might think differently. At the moment, obviously Liverpool are trying to find some form, aren't they? And get a bit of rhythm into the team. And once the players who are largely available use fitness records are pretty good to develop a confidence, cynical, he's in the still players who are still finding the way as Liverpool players. So I can understand why he would stick with a team that has won a couple of games and wants to want to try and develop that confidence. But I can understand the concern because, you know, that might come up points as it did last season where one of the big reasons why I think Liverpool won the league last season was the form in the first three fifths of the season where they kept largely the same team, got the right rhythm. But then it sort of cost them towards the end of the season. So obviously, Clemens is right that there is evidence that if you stick with the same team consistently, it might cost you a little bit later on. I mean, I think the difference between the season last season and James might develop on this is, you know, last season, there were other players in the squad who were available to slot who didn't really get much of a run. And I've since been sold or moved on. And I actually think, you know, speaking to somebody, the club recently about this and the impact of losing players like Harvey Elliott, Tyler Morton, one or two other younger players who were very used to the training standards at Liverpool and still has a belief that they could get into the team at some points. And they helped raise the standards of training, you know, the moves around the club, and those players are no longer there. I think they've actually missed those players a little bit. Another cash gin and I can understand why they have cash gin, but it's like Ben Dole, for example, another one who not so long ago was being highly talked about, probably ultimately isn't quite good enough. You know, these players did have a role in last season, even though they didn't play. Now, those players are no longer there as well. And there aren't really the players coming up through the system to even make it onto the bench. Obviously, James, you might have something to say, you know, just about, you know, some people are saying at the moment, well, we've got to use the academy a bit more, but doesn't look like the players are there. You know that the results haven't been great. I know you shouldn't judge all academy football by results. But, you know, there being occasions this season when Liverpool have had two goalies on the bench, for example, I've never really got to the bottom of that. Maybe, maybe I've missed it at some point while I've been away at half combo. Maybe it's because of fears around, you know, the fitness of goalkeepers, but ordinarily, you'd expect to see an outfield young player on the bench and getting experience, but that just hasn't been happening. Has it changed? No, no, I think I think sometimes it's because quite often it does my head and sometimes the 21s or the 18s games are on the same day as the first team. So essentially, it's almost like, well, it might be a kind of a great experience for that young lad to go and sit on the bench. But if you've got no point, no plan, they're using him because you don't think he's up to it, then easy probably better off playing, playing 90 minutes of academy football. And I think just there's a few things there. One in terms of the new castle game, I think there's been lots of times this season when I've sat there frustrated at slot being too slow to change things. I must admit, Saturday night wasn't one of them because Liverpool second half were excellent. And I think why on earth would you want a tinker with that? And what was it only, I think just before 70 minutes, when Vert scored the third goal to make it 3-1. So until that point, the game's properly in the melting pot. And even then. Yeah, he does bring on Endo, he does bring on Kiezer and Curtis Jones, but yeah, they're all inside the last 10 minutes. So, but yeah, I think there is an issue there in terms of not being able to trust enough players at times that are on the fringes. But then when you look at the, you know, you look at the players who didn't get on against Newcastle, I mean, you know, Nalo, Rio and Gamoa, Trae and Yoni, you know, Calvin Ramsey, you know, Andy Robertson, you know, there's only. There was only one senior outfield player in Robertson who didn't, who didn't come on, you know, the others are a young kid who are quite clearly still learning their trade and I know there's a kind of. A school, a thought amongst the fan base, well, why not give Calvin Ramsey a chance at right back, but all I can say is, you know, on the spot, you know, he doesn't cut his nose off despite his face. Does he sees these players every single day in training and you know, he hasn't played Calvin Ramsey in a single, Premier League game. Since he had that outing against palace in the carabell cup back in what was it's October time. So, so yeah, I think I think there is a depth issue there and it is compounded by what Simon touched upon there, you know, Liverpool lost a lot of squad players last summer, but the problem was they wanted to leave those players, people like. You know, Liverpool weren't looking to shove him out the door, but you know, he wanted to play regularly, they couldn't given that Tyler Morton had effectively kind of given up a year of his career because he. He stayed as cover last season barely got a look and he wanted to go, it's, you know, obviously, Harvey Elliott things haven't worked for him, but he was he was desperate to. To get out there same with Keller, you know, was and again, you couldn't begrudge him that after the service, he'd given Liverpool, yeah, the other point would be there aren't a huge amount of young players banging on that door at the minute. There's a good reason why Liverpool when invested what three and a half million quid in two teenage centre backs in January, one, one of which is already on board with the 21s, the other one will link up in the summer. I sat and watched Liverpool in the year for youth league the other afternoon and you know, they got knocked out in the last 32 of the year for youth league by Zalena from Slovakia. And do you know what it's quite a young under it under 19s team that team and there's some really highly rated kids, but the issue is they're kind of 14 15 when I speak to staff at the academy, you know, it's not like there's no one coming through. It's just that they're not 17 18 19 there, they're a bit younger and you know that that's just where they're at. So I do have, I do have some sympathy for slot when people say he's not playing the kids because the brutal reality is there just isn't that depth of talent there. People I think look back and the view of history gets slightly tainted, you know, club when the league cup with the kids will actually not many of those kids kicked on and wild club probably used young players a little bit more. There wasn't exactly a production line into the first team and that it keeps us going for it's hard to produce players from academies. Yeah, it really I think back to that. I think it was the first year of Brendan Rogers when you think about the bar has gone so much higher since then. If you look back to that season, 2012 13, you have people like Suso and Andre Wisdom playing like 2025 games and and now players like that at that level, you know, with the greatest respect to them would be nowhere near Liverpool's first team set up because the bar is set high and you're right Tony to reference that that lead cup final that obviously gets talked about a lot. You know, Jürgen Klopp described it is the most satisfying trophy you'd ever won because of the players that were on duty that day, but when you when you look at those players that were involved, you know, see kind of Bradley is the standout one in terms of young players who, you know, he started the game. And of course he has kicked on until you know got a real cruel injury, but when you look at some of those other young players that were like, you know, quite rightly lauded around that time, you know, Bobby Clark. You know, he wanted to leave Liverpool to go to Salzburg after Pep Linders took over there. That didn't work out for him. He's now at, you know, at Derby County in the championship James McConnell, you know, he's had injury problems that have really dented his progress. He went on loan to Ajax. Things didn't work out for him this season. So he's back at Liverpool and currently recovering from injury. Jaden Danes, you know, he's had really bad injuries. I think we would have seen him more than we have done around the setup this season, but for for injuries. And of course, you know, quonsa was still young back then. And as we said, you know, he he wanted to play regularly that Liverpool couldn't offer him. So, so yeah, I don't I don't think sometimes I see it portrayed as almost like Anna slot was inherited dislike unbelievable riches of young talent that he's somehow squandered. But I think when you actually, you know, when you're actually delve into it, the reality is a bit different. I remember in maybe 2011 or 12. I was having a conversation with a journalist at a match. I think it was a banley. So I'm sure the journalist won't mind me mentioning his name John A. Zalwood. I'm sure you know John A. Zalwood. So really, really nice guy. And remember, we were discussing, you know, what Liverpool. And I was absolutely convinced that Andre Wisdom was going to go and do it. You know, he got into the team, he, you know, athletic, you know, the way everybody was talking about the Academy, and he was like, Andre Wisdom going to be a regular Liverpool no chance. Anyway, as the years passed occasionally, I'd see John it'd be the first question he'd ask, how's he doing now, Andre Wisdom? Anyway, I saw him for the first time, I reckon about six or seven years last summer. And my, maybe my appearance has changed somewhat in the last six or seven years, looking a bit older. Here's changed color a little bit far, the hoods. And John looked at me, didn't quite recognize me at first. And then the first question was, where's Andre Wisdom now? Is the first question. Anyway, I'll give you an answer. He's playing for FC United in the Northern Premier League. And at one point, you know, as James said, did you score in your Liverpool? Am I making that up? You definitely, I think he did, yeah, he did. He was, you know, called playing midfield, called play centre-off. But yeah, he's marshalling the FC United backline now. Oh, man. We wish Andre well. The other monk unions that we don't wish well, like Manchester City. Perfect segue there. Sorry, can I cut in? I was there to witness his goal. It was a, it was a way to young boys in the Europa League. And what was this going on again? 5-3. And that was under Rodgers, yeah, Brendan Rodgers. That was under Brendan Rodgers, yeah, yeah, September 2012. The line up that night was Brad Jones in goal. Just to reinforce my point about maybe Liverpool appearances were easier to get under your belt back then. Obviously, Jamie Carriger was still around, but you had to fill for him. He had Sebastian Quatters, your mate Simon. He had him alongside him. Andre Wisdom and Joe, Joe Zimrikay playing at fullbacks. And then you had the lesser spotted Neurie Sahin. Remember him? Usama Asseidi, Jordan Henderson, Stuart Downing, Danny Pacheco and Suso. Danny Pacheco, we're still playing by the way. He's in Poland now, I believe. Maybe it's a second division club don't hold me still. I think that rings a bell. He's a veteran now. Great days. Anyway, sorry, Tony. Back to Man City. Well, you've given us the team news already, James. This is a big game. It's an important game, obviously. Yeah, yeah, it feels massive, doesn't it, in terms of if beating Carabag in the way that Liverpool did and then following up against Newcastle has just given you that, you know, that bit of hope for the rest of the season. It's like Sundays, the proper test of that, isn't it? In terms of whether Liverpool really do have a platform to kick on and swap was quite honest, actually earlier on about that. Saying that it's a game where you kind of see where, you know, how are you match up? Because although Liverpool came away from the Etihad after that three nil defeat earlier in the season with a sense of injustice because of the manner in which Van Dyke's goal was quite clearly wrongly ruled out. You know, make no bones about it. They were outplayed on the on the day. You know, I think it helps the fact that, you know, Doc, who's been out as near the last few weeks, be absolutely delighted if he's nowhere near that team. She on on Sunday afternoon. And yeah, it's it's a game where you feel as if city look more vulnerable now than than they did then and Liverpool are better now than they were then. And also obviously there's this city's record at Amfield and I'm touching this wooden table as I say it, but it's dreadful, isn't it? You know, Liverpool have lost one of the last 22 home Premier League meetings with city. You know, the city's only winning that period, February 2021, behind closed doors during during Covid city. I haven't done the league double over Liverpool since 1937. And Harlan's not scored at Liverpool in in the Premier League. So histories in their favour, but yeah, they they need to rise to the occasion on Sunday afternoon. Well, you know what I love about this fixture for the same reason, for similar reason, should I say that it seems to worry me. You know, when he's Arsenal manager, you can't get beyond this, this idea of Liverpool that Amfield, he finds it really hard. I think Guardiola has a similar thing really. Like he he does seem to reveal the way Amfield on set and occasions can just make it really, really difficult for the opponents. And I think city of Schufford at Amfield, there's a consequence of the crowd interaction when it gets really, really nasty and really tough. And I think it's, it's helped Liverpool to quite a lot of those victories in that period. Now, obviously this game isn't a title for Liverpool, but if you actually look at the run of fixtures for the next two months, it's not, I don't want to say the last difficult game that Liverpool have got because Liverpool have made. I will say a lot of games, but I do think that if they were to win this game after the recent performances, it would give them a, you know, a huge injection of confidence. It's just whether that was translated over confidence, you know, potentially, you know, because they have to actually work harder and concentrate more against the weaker opponents than they might do against city to some extent. It's a game that I always look forward to. I mean, I, you sort of try and measure that, you know, games and rivalries and Premier League history, you know, over the years. And unfortunately in the 90s, when the Premier League came along, Liverpool weren't really in the conversation about the best teams. And it was really awesome. I mean, you know, I said, obviously Chelsea came in and changed that. But then since then, I do think that those games between Liverpool and city have just had something else, you know, technical level, aggression, proper needle. The only thing that's maybe lax is sort of an animosity between the two groups of players, but, you know, some of those matches in the club, Guards, you know, I won't, I will just never ever forget. You know, they would do it absolutely brilliant. I even games, I've said it before on this podcast, even games when Liverpool lost, I mean, one of the greatest games of football ever seems when Liverpool lost the game at City, which effectively won City the title in 2019, when you look at it, the level of football was just unbelievable at night. I came away just thinking, wow, like that was ridiculously good. So I don't think either team or that sage at the moment, but I still think it's a fixture that really gets people going. And, you know, I mean, I grew up with city being a bit of a joke club really, that obviously not anymore. I don't want to say the rivalry is on the same level as it is man United, but you do know that on, you know, when they play each other, you know, the games are very dramatic. So again, I just can't say it being a nail nail, I think something will happen on something. Well, what will happen is Amfield will be buzzing Manchester City will have a hostile reception, and hopefully Liverpool will storm them and destroy them. And when they do, we'll talk about it on Monday. Thanks to James and Simon and you two for listening. Come on, you reds. You've been listening to Walk On from the Athletic FC. 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