Your Spouse Doesn’t Want to Homeschool. Now What? | Mandy Davis @homebuilteducation

If one person says, I absolutely want to homeschool, and the other spouse says, I absolutely do not. In the traditional classroom today, kids are getting less one-on-one attention than a commercial break. There's a lot more freedom when you homeschool. You will have over 16,000 more hours with your children. Homeschoolers are scoring higher on standardized tests, even though we don't even believe in standardized tests. We're still scoring higher on those. When you go into the conversation and you think, I want to win this, I want to homeschool, that's it, and you're not listening to your spouse, you're going to go into homeschooling alone. The hard days, you're going to feel like you're responsible for those. The tough times, you're going to feel like you're the one that has to pick up all of these pieces. Let's get to the root of what it is they're trying to protect. Because most of the time, it's not because they're really against the idea of homeschooling. Most of the time, they're really passionate about protecting something. One of the biggest parenting decisions you'll ever make should actually start before you get married. That's one of the biggest takeaways I had. We're talking about why homeschooling should be a pre-marriage conversation, what to do if your spouse isn't automatically on board, and why the non-homeschooling parent has a much bigger role than you probably realize. Today, I'm joined by Mandy Davis, author of The Homeschool Bible, former school principal, and one of the leading voices helping parents take back authority over their children's education. I absolutely love this conversation because it's not another generic homeschooling episode. If you've ever felt called to homeschool, but you're convinced that your husband's not going to do it, then you're going to have to do it. If you're a teacher who's looked around the education system and thought, I don't know if I can do this anymore, this episode is for you, too. Watch this episode on the Culture Apothecary Spotify channel or Real Alex Clark on YouTube. Please welcome Mandy Davis, author of The Homeschool Bible, to Culture Apothecary. You were a teacher, but you felt like being a teacher, you were powerless to help kids. So then you were like, hey. I think I should become a principal. Then I'll finally be able to fix this broken system. So you did that, and it didn't pan out there either. So what ended up happening? I think going back into when I was just first a student, I was a great student on paper, and I got good grades. I was the quiet kid. Everyone would have said she's an excellent student, the public school system serving her. But actually, I really struggled. I was bullied. I struggled feeling like I didn't have a place. I struggled in my own classrooms, and that's what got me into teaching in the first place. I wanted to be everything that I needed as a child that I didn't receive in my educational experience. But right away teaching, it was very clear that that wasn't possible. Why? There's so much put on a teacher. There's so many things we have to do. It's not our own will to create lessons and to decide what curriculum is best. We need to deliver. We're a mode of transportation of what we're being told has to get done. From, okay, this is the behavioral plan that the school uses. You have to execute it. This is how we manage difficult students. This is our special education resources that we have available. This is what we use. This is what we do. This is our curriculum. These are our state tests. And it's just put on you, and that's your job. There's no wiggle room outside of that. When I realized that as a teacher, it wasn't for me. I wasn't actually serving these students. I was working a job that I could not even enjoy because I was watching kids drown in the same way that I felt drowned out when I was a student. So what were you hoping you would be able to impact as a principal? I felt like if I had a higher vantage point, if I got into administration, then I would have the opportunity to make a difference. I would have the opportunity to make a change from the top. And all of those small things that I wanted to do as a teacher, maybe I could make that impact on the school building. And my kids went to this school, no impact. I had my name on the door. But I couldn't make any of the changes that I wanted to make. And looking back at the timeline, it was unrealistic of me to think that I wouldn't have more red tape over me as the principal. So what's an example of, like, something you were really, like, hype about? Like, okay, as principal, I'm totally doing this. And you were like, even something as simple as this, I can't do. There are small changes from curriculum that needs to be updated to changes as simple as fifth graders should have movement in their day. Fifth graders need an extra recess. They need time to be outside, time to be with friends. And that was not something that I could implement. Wait, I'm shocked by this. Why even as a principal? Could you not make it so that there could be more movement in a fifth grader's day? It comes down to there were different priorities that the school as a whole needed to do, to complete, to meet. And there was no wiggle room in the day. And is that kind of stuff determined ultimately then by, like, a school board or district or what? Typically the district. But also sometimes as a whole, depending on state rules. If you have state testing. If you have state testing, depending on so many outside factors, it feels like everyone except the people most important get to make the calls in the classroom. And the students and the parents have very little to no say. And the teachers have no ability to make any change. And the admin completely have their hands tied. One thing that you talk about is you say that schools are built around efficiency rather than children. What does that actually mean? Realistically? If you put one adult in charge of 25 plus kids, you can't be focused on the individual. It's the way the entire system is set up. So in schools today, the model is to meet the middle, to move as many students to, you know, from point A to B as possible, from fourth grade to fifth grade. And that doesn't mean that a gifted student is being challenged. And it doesn't mean that a struggling student is being met with any kind of care to get them to progress. It's not about growth. It's about getting everyone right here to the middle. And the efficiency, everything's streamlined. You know, we're in quiet rows still. It's 2026 and we're still in quiet rows. What does that mean? The desks are just all lined in rows. The kids aren't actively working with group projects. The kids aren't actively allowed to socialize or still get up to use the restroom if they need to use the restroom. We started doing this. Why? Because of COVID? It's never been the way. You have to raise your hand to use the restroom. And I understand. I understand from working in buildings that it's a safety thing and a management thing. And, of course, you'd have the handful of kids that would abuse the power if they were allowed to go to the restroom whenever. But on the flip side, you also have students that. You have students that are sitting in an environment all day where what I call the hidden curriculum, the curriculum that our kids are actually taking home with them, is being taught reflexive obedience, do as I'm told, and my needs, my basic needs, don't necessarily matter. If a parent shadowed their child for one week inside of a typical public school, what do you think would shock them the most? We did. We did have parents shadow all parents across the U.S. We had parents shadow their kids through COVID. Now, there is a group who would probably say, I'd never homeschool my kids. I've done that. I did that in COVID. That was not homeschooling. Yeah. That was emergency public schooling. And what was actually going on is parents had a front row seat in their living room to what their kids do every single day. And they called it boring. They called it monotonous. They called it. They called it terrible. They said, my child hates this. They had the front row seat. And it's so hard. It's so hard that instead of understanding, actually, this is what our children do in a classroom every single day. We're just recording it and we're letting you become a part of it. Instead of that, a lot of the wrong things were blamed. Okay. COVID, this means kids, we got to get them back in school. Kids need school. We got to get these kids back in the classroom. I was the opposite. That was, for me, the we're done. So COVID for you was the moment that you realized, I think I need to homeschool my kids? COVID was a difficult timeline to be a principal over because more than ever, I was getting updates in real time. So I would watch on the news from the school building, the governor's updates on mask, no mask. This is what's happening in schools. Schools weren't given any bigger. Bigger heads up than everyone watching the same news broadcast. Wow. And so. okay, every, get our masks back out. She just announced it. And that was our timeline. From that point, and from the ability to have my kids home through the shutdown, we were done. What was the biggest, I mean, what was like the ultimate last straw that you, that you had during the COVID homeschool experience? I don't think it was one big thing for me. I feel like it was a lot of small things that just began to weigh me down. But I remember sitting with my husband and telling him for my career, professionally, I couldn't do this anymore. It was beginning to feel like a toxic environment. Wow. How could we keep our kids there then? So that was it. If I was leaving, and if I was going to call a place that I had to be every day, toxic, not for me, I've got to get out. This is hurting my mental health. This is hurting my physical health. I can't do this. How could we leave our kids there? And at that point, I mean, you're a traditional education trained type of person. So up until that point, I mean, what were your thoughts on homeschooling? None. Like, did you think it was that those kids didn't learn? I mean, what was your like, what was your stereotype? It's shameful. It's shameful to admit. My husband, same route, public school route, same as me. He was the athlete in high school. He did move around a lot. And so he, um, he noticed gaps in his learning because of how he would move and certain things wouldn't be taught in one state that would be in another. And so teaching himself became very important for him, but he had never considered homeschool. And he would say, and I'm confident to say that he would say homeschool kids are weird homeschooled kids, you know, just a general stereotype of, of what that environment would look like from a prairie dress living on a farm to, um, not having friends. I didn't grow up around homeschooling at all. So even the stereotypes actually stayed pretty far from my view, but I also never considered homeschooling from being in education for two decades. I never considered homeschooling. So that, I'm sorry. I'm surprised by the leap for you to have had no experience knowing other homeschool families or how homeschooling works or anything to go from a traditional public school mindset to, I think I should homeschool my kids. Why do you think you, you skipped like a Montessori environment or a charter school environment or a private school? Like why did you go to homeschooling? I think it's because my husband and I finally had the conversation that we should have had when we met, which was how do we view education for our children? And what do we want that to be? Not schooling, not should we send them to a public school or a private school? Should we homeschool? Not that conversation, but what is education? What do we believe in education is? And how do we want to cultivate that for our children? And it's such a big conversation because it's not just what form of schooling are you going to pick? It's a financial decision. It's a lifestyle decision, decision. It's how you look at childhood and your family unit. It's a lot of intentionality around the home. You left because you love education, not because you hate it. Absolutely. Absolutely. I left because I couldn't watch my children's education be in the hands of a system that would never care about them the way that my husband and I would. Is your position that homeschooling should be a first date conversation? Okay. I won't say first date, but it should be early. It tells you a lot. It tells you a lot your partner and, and what their view is on family life in the future, because homeschooling is so much more than this is, you know, what our kids are going to do for school. It's, it's so much more. It's a, I know what you're talking about. It's a richer conversation of like, of, of, you know, what do you think about learning environments? Do they matter? What is an ideal learning environment for our children look like to you? What do you picture? Blah, blah, blah, blah. So Vance and I did talk homeschooling on the first date, um, and our hopes and dreams and what we would envision and all of that kind of stuff. But I think a lot of couples don't ever talk about education. Um, even in the engagement process, you're spending all this time on flowers and cake taste testing and all these things, but you're not talking about those types of things. Then you have a child that becomes school age and it's like, okay, they're, they're kindergarten age, but wait, what are we doing? Like what even, I don't even, if I wanted to homeschool, I wouldn't have done it. I wouldn't have done it. I wouldn't I have no idea what that entails. It's like, it's almost like we wait too late. And I feel the same way about a myriad of parenting issues. Like, okay, now I'm eight months pregnant. What kind of pediatrician do I want? What, what sort of birth do I want? Um, you know, I don't, what kind of vaccine schedule protocol do I want to do? Do I want to do vaccines? Do I not? If I do some, like, how do I even know? It's like, um, I think we kind of do this cramming thing as Americans a lot of the time. And I feel like in a lot of other countries, especially in Scandinavia, they have a rich, richer idea of what education should look like. I don't know. You tell me, you know, I think a few things. Um, first we are very reactive as a society. We're reactive parents. We wait until there's crises and then we go to solve it. But when you're constantly fixing things and especially in education, it's going to then become an emotional response. And it's going to be a very hard conversation in the time of crises. But I think that you're very right that most of us have to wait until school age to have a very brief conversation. And it typically goes the way my husband and mine went, which is private or public. I mean, what district do we live in? You know, where would the kids be going to school? Or do we want to pay for private? As a whole, we're in this mindset as parents, when we have babies, we, we do the reading. How are we going to sleep train? And what does this mean? And toddlers were watching for the milestones. How, how old was your toddler when they walked? How old was it? When they talked? Okay. My baby's almost five. They're almost five. They're almost five. There's this burden for whatever reason that parents want to lift from their shoulders because their children are school age. And that means they go to school and now, okay, well, what does this mean? You know, um, if a mom had stopped working, does that mean I go back to work? Are my days now open? If both parents were working, wow, you know, we're cutting that daycare bill. If we're looking at private school, you know, um, it's all this planning, planning, planning around this released burden that was never meant to be ours to release. If you send your children to public school, if you send them to private school, the responsibility of their education is still on you. And to circle back to a conversation that I think is very funny is whenever someone asks me about those weird homeschoolers, well, what are you going to do about socialization? What are you going to do about socialization? The homeschool parents are the ones who deeply think about socialization. And we know that that responsibility is on our shoulders. But if you send your children to school, that responsibility is also still on your shoulders. I think that whole mindset and argument about public school kids versus, or traditional school kids versus homeschool, you know, and the weirdness and not social, I think that's going away quickly because the kids that are in public school, I think are the weirdest. They, they, they have, you know, they're riddled with mental health issues. They can't make eye contact with adults or other people. Their, their friends are all online. If they have friends at all, you know, there's a myriad of things. And then you've got the homeschool kids. Those are the ones that seem to be completely thriving. They're in extracurricular activities. They, they have an except, uh, exceptional reading level. You know, a lot of these kids in public school, I mean, they can't even read or have abysmal math skills at this point. So I think, I think that this is really the tide is turning. Do you? I do too. I definitely do. I do. And you know, what so many are calling now the homeschool movement. And I hope not only, I hope it doesn't slow down, but I hope that parents start taking these conversations earlier, earlier into their relationship. Such a health conscious era right now, cold plunges, red light, high protein, sleep trackers, all of it. And listen, I love a wellness habit. I do some of those, but none of that matters. If you're missing the actual data on what your body needs, you cannot biohack your way out of blind spots. That's why Jevity is so smart and why I use them to take all the guesswork out of my health optimization. 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That's the premium starter kit at BranchBasics.com, code ALEX15. What I was so enthralled by when I was just like looking into you and we wanted to have you as a guest on the show, I'm like, okay, this girl is super smart because not only do you talk about homeschooling and all the things that go along with that that I think people are used to hearing about, but you also go into the marriage dynamics of a couple who maybe, one person wants to homeschool and the other person isn't totally on board. And how do you manage that? And what does that look like if they end up, you know, acquiescing and saying, okay, sure, we can homeschool, but then what? Then what's their role in the family once the homeschooling begins? And just kind of more of these small little things that have to do with homeschooling that nobody really seems to talk about. It's very unique. I think it's super important. So if one person says in a couple, I absolutely want to homeschool, and the other spouse says, I absolutely do not. Is that as significant as disagreeing about where to live? I think it's less common for a couple to come together and say, I really want to homeschool, me too. Yes. I feel like that's less common. You're going to come with two different ideas, but hopefully the goal is to come into the conversation ready to have a conversation. Because I know that I did this completely wrong. I had the months of research in my mind, and I came to my hard conclusion and then I brought my husband in on it. So what I had processed for months, I'm looking at him and I want him to agree with me within minutes. Yeah. And while I had the know-how, I didn't communicate it well. I came with facts and I came with all of my reasons and he got defensive right away. So as someone who came into all of these conversations wrong, is it a deal breaker? Is it a big deal? It's a big. It's a big conversation. And if at the end of the conversation, you absolutely cannot see eye to eye in terms of how do we view raising a family? How do we view childhood? And how do we define education? Then I would say that's a deal breaker. But if we can get on the same page with those three, then your choice of schooling should be pretty simple. And I'm not saying that that's going to be homeschooling for everyone either. I mean, this is a conversation that we still have year over year. Is homeschooling still serving? Yeah. Are reasons why? Because kids might have different needs at different ages. Absolutely. Every kid has a different personality. I mean, I know homeschool families where they ended up sending, you know, one high school age kid to a Christian private school and then the other teenage age child is home and they wanted to be at home still. So like, there's just differences, I think, between the children. I think what you're saying is important because I think, I think there's a lot of wives who want to try to just win the homeschool debate with their husbands. So they're sending them a ton of reels on Instagram. They're sending the statistics. And instead of opening his mind, all of that evidence, I think, can make him feel like he's being cross-examined. Is that, you know, kind of how your husband felt? And then how did you turn that tide around? Sure. Yeah, definitely. When you come in and you're looking to win the argument, when you're looking to win at all, it's not a willing conversation. My husband, I think overall, he was willing because he knew my background in education and it gave him a confidence. But we didn't have the right kind of conversation at first. We did not outline what that would look like. And so a lot of the hardships of homeschooling fell on me. When you go into the conversation and you think, I want to win this. I want to homeschool. That's it. And you're not listening. You're not listening to your spouse. You're going to go into homeschooling alone because what's going to happen is the hard days, you're going to feel like you're responsible for those. And so I was taking on all the hard by myself because I didn't want him to think I couldn't do this or this wasn't the right call. I wanted him to be as excited as I was. And that was wrong. Yeah. So you're then carrying the burden of the hardships and not able to tell him because then you're like, I'm going to lose this. I'm going to lose him and I'm trying to convince him that this is great what we're doing. Exactly. Exactly. And we never specified roles. I didn't feel like it was even fair for me to ask him to do more since homeschooling was my idea. So I just took it on myself, take it on myself, take it on myself. Then on a hard day, he sees me crying after a hard day. He sees the kids crying. He wants to cry after a hard day. His immediate response was to fix the problem. Let's just send them. Let's just send them to school. So now I'm deflated. I feel like that's it. That's his fix. The fix was to go back to school. I felt like he doesn't believe I can do this. He doesn't believe we can do this. He still doesn't want to do this. When he's seeing his wife burnt out after a hard day and he's like, I just want to help. We hadn't had the conversation of how long are we going to try this? What is success going to look like in this process? How are we going to know if the kids are thriving? We didn't have those conversations. We made the choice. Okay, Mandy really wants to do this. I think I'm on board. So she's going to do this. No, she's sad. She's not liking it. We're done. So let's walk through. You're a wife listening to this and you are like, I am dying to homeschool my kids. My husband is so not on board. Like first step she should do. First step, have a conversation. It's got to start with understanding what's going on. What their view is on education and what you want for your children. What does that look like? Develop that together. So what if it's a man who's never really thought about that? Like he doesn't even know what that means. What is my view on education? I want them to be able to read and write, you know, and it doesn't go beyond that. Sure. Then it should be a pretty short conversation that homeschooling is a great opportunity for that. But no, I understand because everyone's coming from different wavelengths and every parent sees a different side of their children. I got a front row. I got a front row seat to our girls' education being their school principal. So I saw the tears in the hallway. I saw the struggles with homework. I saw how tired they were. He wasn't seeing that same view, right? So he sees us at the dinner table and he sees us at playtime. And it's like, this is a great childhood. You know, they're fine. You've got to come to the table for a conversation for the kids. And also understand if your husband comes back firm, you know, I don't want to homeschool or this isn't happening. And maybe that's you. Maybe for my husband, it was me. He thought he was protecting my time, my energy, my sense of self by, okay, no, you know, you shouldn't do this. For others, it could be something with the kids. Maybe they are worried about friendships. Maybe they are worried about a piece of the education. And then you can confront those questions together. But you've got to start by finding that root. What is your advice for somebody who really wants to homeschool, but they have a unique situation, like they have a child with learning disabilities, but they want to homeschool and have to convince their spouse? Oh, gosh. I feel like homeschooling is an even better option when you have any, kind of, outside-the-box thinkers, when you have any kind of neurodiversity, when you have any child with varying needs. That conversation is going to look different because I know that that can feel very scary because the question is, where is the support? And we talked about that, that release of burden that, okay, now they go and they get their education at school age. But for families that are carrying especially heavy educational needs for their children, It can. look like an entire support system within a classroom. So first, I would actually visit the school and classroom and understand what needs will actually be met. Because you have to start in reality. It would be really easy to think at a school, my child's needs are going to be met. It gets a little more difficult when you actually learn what resources the school has available, what that would look like for your child. If your child has a leap and grows mid-year, will things be adjusted quickly? Or will you have to wait until the next year to be re-evaluated? How often are meetings about your child? What happens if something in the classroom is not working? A lot of times, I think we have an idyllic sense of what these situations look like when it's actually much harder in the classroom. And then on the flip side, at home, we have a lot of times where we have to wait until the next year to be re-evaluated. At home, you can select your pace. You don't even have to call it accommodations like they will call it in a classroom. You can just teach and learn alongside your child. And it has to be said that so many of the resources that a classroom uses is still available to homeschool families. So you'd register through your district and you can still receive services if you decide you'd like them into your home. One thing that the audience needs to know is that they love to take notes when they listen to my episodes and they love things I can say, things I can do, things I can buy, whatever, depending on the episode. With this episode, I think it would be really helpful for you to give a couple interesting facts or stats or fun facts, however you want to phrase it, on homeschooling that somebody could share with a skeptical spouse that is very into, I need the facts on this. Tell me why this is better than public school. An individualized pace of learning in life, which means freedom. Something that I think a lot of parents don't understand is that homeschooling takes significantly less time than just managing a school schedule. I mean, we used to run crazy to get to drop-offs on time and pickups and homework. And now it's, you know, a special day at school. And their calendar was really dictating our travel time, our family time. It ate into our nights. You will have, what is it, 16,000, over 16,000 more hours with your children. And if your kids have siblings, it's over 16,000 more hours that they have with their siblings. I know for me, my children would never all be in the same school building, let alone the same classroom because of their age range. And so just having that childhood together. And of course, homeschoolers are scoring higher on standardized tests, even though we don't even believe in standardized tests, we're still scoring higher on those. We have just a killer rate right now for getting into college, if that's the path that they decide to take. And just all of the studies coming out, like even you had shared on the social development and the ability to thrive in social and work settings. The educational research is vast as to why families are turning to homeschooling. can we please stop putting glitter in everything candles lip gloss stanley cups apparently toothpaste did you know that some toothpaste gets that sparkly look from plastic glitter so congratulations you woke up this morning thinking time to freshen my breath and accidentally gave your gums arts and crafts supplies and while we're at it some toothpaste also contains artificial food dyes why who looked at toothpaste and thought you know this needs to be electric blue it's toothpaste it's not a blue raspberry icy even your white toothpaste might have food dye in it read the ingredients you can use either zebra's toothpaste or their toothpaste tablets it skips all of the nonsense no fluorescent colors no fluoride no messy powders no food dye and it's so easy you just chew the tablet it turns into fresh foam you brush like normal and you're done kids love using them because they're fun and i love them because 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year especially if you're coming from the traditional school it's hard to let go of everything that you've believed education should look like for me i'm still unlearning today the first year from being a teacher and then a principal i i had my first year of homeschooling planner with me on day one and i was so excited we're homeschooling i have a new planner it's color-coded i had it by the hour and like 40 minutes in someone's at the door and someone's crying and why is there snack on the floor and i felt like i had failed we were behind on the schedule that i had written which was ridiculous because i was trying to recreate school at home yeah i had a mini version of the thing that i left and i think even without thinking about it i'm not going to be able to do it again i'm not going to be able to do it again i'm not a lot of parents do this they recreate what they know what they know is okay worksheets quiet sitting okay because that's what we're told learning should look like but learning can look vastly different family to family so you've got little kids all the way through teenagers how i think a lot of people wonder like how do you handle teenagers like what about prom what about sports when they're young it's heavy management when they're young so when they're older they know how to learn i'm not focused on um this is a math concept or a history concept memorize it memorize it i want to know that you understand how to learn how to figure out a problem how to critically think because my teen she can now a lot of questions that i get are how will you know how to teach these advanced subjects by the time they're ready they are reading and processing and they know how to learn and you are watching and helping and facilitating but i'm not teaching physics and and so that's our job when they're little to put in that time to teach them how to learn and so and so we can let them go on their own my daughter there's so many programs um you asked about prom and sports and activities there's so many programs for teens we have a homeschool learning center near our home and they put on a homeschool program and a homeschool homecoming which are adorable my daughter takes choir at our local school and so many so many don't know that you need um in in most states five credit hours at a school to be eligible for all of their sports and extracurriculars so if you have a child that's gifted in basketball and you want to see them you know be able to play for a school's team that's going to be a great way to do that and i think that's a great way to do that and i think that's a great way to do that and i think that's a great way to do that and i think that's a great way to um more and more private schools and private charters and homeschool charters are popping up with all of these options and opportunities available and again with the homeschool movement booming i do not see this slowing down no i don't either i think some extraordinary things are coming out i think in cities all around america how do you know if your spouse needs more information or if they just need more time conversation yeah just talking um with them through it and and trying to understand what's going on in their lives and what's going on in their lives and what's going on um where their concerns are coming from again i think we'll we'll give you a key into are they not understanding how i see childhood and education or is this something that we're so far apart on that we need time to both process and then come back to the table but the strongest couples are going to have the difficult conversation and then make a choice that they can build their marriage around what is something almost everyone is going to have to deal with and what is something that every new homeschool parent wastes energy on curriculum curriculum worrying thinking what's the best curriculum? How can I find the best curriculum? Getting upset if they buy a very expensive curriculum and it only works a little bit. The curriculum, I just, curriculum doesn't matter. People ask me all the time, what's your favorite? What's the best? I'm like, they're all pretty much the same. They're all pretty much the same. There's none that are like, this is stand out, the best, you know, small books I've ever seen. They're all about the same. You are so much more important than the curriculum. The curriculum is going to help you, but when you start letting it run you, it's a problem. And I'm a recovering perfectionist and completionist. You know, I wanted to always see like, let's finish the worksheet. It feels good when it's done. No, if they know it, toss it. You don't need it. We, I've never completed a curriculum with my kids. It's there. Don't waste time on curriculum. How do you know that your child is succeeding with homeschooling? I think that's going to depend a lot on the family from an educational standpoint. It's such a blessing that homeschoolers can look for progress, not a final grade, not how well do you test, but progress. Because if last week you couldn't read this full paragraph and this week you're reading a paragraph and a half, progress and you're learning. And parents get to see that front row. As for, is the homeschool successful? That's a big question between couples as to how are you going to define that? Is it our happiness? Is it how much time we're able to now spend together or have? Is it, you know, from the kids learning to the life we're building together, what's going to be most important to your family? What is something that made you cry during your first year of homeschooling that now makes you laugh? I'm not sure if this made me cry in the first year, but my hardest, like my struggle point was all the freedom because I had put so much into the education side and it really, I mean, when homeschoolers say it doesn't take long, the learning really doesn't take long. And just to side note this, when you look at a traditional classroom and you're looking at seven and a half hours in the classroom and you think that's a lot of learning they're doing, you have to take out transition time. You have to take out walking, bathroom breaks, instructions, instructions, teachers working with other students, managing, behaviors, all those things. What? So that's like less than seven minutes. I believe it's less than four and a half. In their whole school day. Four and a half minutes of one-on-one time with the teacher actually learning. Yes. Less than. That's extraordinary. It's terrible. It is terrible. So when you bring it home, when you bring learning home and you've been sitting with your children for two hours, I'm not kidding you. That is enough. And they've learned and they're ready to go. So what then do you do with the rest of your day? It's not something I thought about before I got into it. And it's like, oh gosh, we have a much higher grocery bill because there were a lot of snacks that were eaten and a lot more playtime than I look back now. And like, what a gift, what a gift for all that playtime. But when it first happened, I felt like I was doing something wrong. Because again, I'm coming from that traditional mindset of you have a seven and a half hour day. So I was like, wow, my daughter is going to be, she was in sixth grade. She's going to be done with seventh grade math in like a week. So I guess maybe we should add Russian. You know, and like, oh, chickens, let's raise them. We ended up with over 30 chickens. And we, and I kept piling more on thinking we have to keep doing more until I realized this is the freedom. Like this was the whole point. Is homeschooling on average finally start to feel comfortable for most families? Is it the second year? I don't think it is measured in time as much as mom and dad's comfort with this is what education at home can look like. That, that really was it for, for my husband and me. You say that the spouse who isn't doing the day-to-day homeschooling still has a huge role in the family when it comes to homeschooling. What role do you think dads, because on average, they're the ones that are not homeschooling, what role do you think on average dads underestimate the most? One of the most dangerous setups to a new homeschooler, the new homeschooling family, is this belief that homeschooling is mom's passion project. Yeah. That's my wife's thing. This is yours and everything else is normal. Dads have so many important roles and the best way to figure those out for your family is to ask your spouse, how can I support you? And it might look like a lot of different things. It might be, I'm just going to be making more meals and doing more cleanup. It might be, I'm going to check in on the kids learning. I'm going to check in on how my wife's doing on these days. And I'm going to, you know, take the kids all to the park this evening. So my, my wife has time to set up for tomorrow. It doesn't have to be these huge milestone and huge acts of this is my job, but that your role is not to be, um, not a part of the homeschool is most important. You are a part of the homeschool. So the big question is how can I support? And it might just be, um, in seasons, emotional support for everyone of the, you can do this. But if, if your mindset is, um, you know, she will do this, that's the problem. You said it was the worst thing possible when you had a hard homeschooling day and your husband came home and was like, you know what? We can just send them back. Let's just, we can be done with this. We don't have to do this anymore. So what should a husband say if he comes home to his homeschooling wife and she's at her wits end and the kids are at their wits end? What do you need? What do you need? Or go get her a small treat. Always a treat. What is the difference between helping your wife homeschool and leading your family as your wife homeschools? Oh gosh. I love that question. As dad. Wow. Your wife is going to count on you more than ever because if you're a new homeschool family, she is taking on alongside you this huge endeavor and it's heavy because it can so easily change without you even realizing it. Um, for moms, a little piece of your identity and how you see yourself. There's a huge stigma around homeschool mom. And what does that mean? And sometimes it means pressure. Sometimes it can feel like pressure. It can feel like pressure. It can feel pressure. Like, am I doing this well? So as dad leading your home means to be that strong rock and place of support because she might not always know what she's doing, but she's going to keep going. And so she needs you to be that constant support. Now you talked about how it's good to kind of assess your homeschooling situation every year. Definitely. You know, is this working for us? Is this working for this child and not for this child, et cetera. So how should a dad know then the difference between she's having a bad day and this is just not sustainable for our family anymore? Hopefully these ongoing conversations, you know, hopefully that first conversation of how do we see education? Um, what do we want for our kid's childhood is not a one-time thing. It's not, okay, I'm going to decide to homeschool and that's it. The decision, making that first decision doesn't always come with clarity or a game plan on, okay, we're going to homeschool. Now we know exactly what to do. You have to learn that part together. I don't have children. I don't have children yet. What should Vance and I be doing today as we are getting ready to start our marriage that will make homeschooling easier 10 years from now? Hmm. Talk about it. Just talk about, um, what do we see and, and what could our days look like? And even just dreaming it together and getting on the same page on the childhood that you want to create in the home, because a home culture is inevitable. Every home has a culture, whether or not parents are intentional about it. So if you were describing your home culture, what would you say? It's come such a long ways because it used to be rushed. It used to be in the door, rushed by, it was like we were running past each other in all sorts of directions. Um, but since we've really slowed everything down and connection always comes first connection comes before curriculum. It comes before the busy day, just connection with one another and just our relationships being so important and coming first and then everything being rooted in our faith. Can we all just take a moment to appreciate that we're living in the greatest era to get healthy? Because if you were around in the early 2000s, healthy food tasted like drywall. Remember those protein bars? It was like eating compressed hamster bedding. You chew for 17 minutes and somehow end up thirstier than when you started. Now we're spoiled. Here's the thing though. Around three o'clock when you hit that afternoon crash, you have a choice. You can eat a bag of chips and immediately need a nap, or you could actually give your body what it's asking for. That's why I keep Prima bars with me. They're the first ancestral protein bar made with 21 grams of grass fed whey, which means it is a complete protein with all the amino acids your body needs. They also include grass fed collagen and are sweetened with raw organic honey. No seed oils, no weird protein isolates, no ingredients that belong in a chemistry textbook. I think that we've gotten so obsessed with hitting a protein number that we've forgotten to ask, where is the protein actually coming from? Source matters. Prima protein bars are also glyphosate free certified. Okay. That is so cool. They're seed oil free certified as well. well. So you don't have to stand in the grocery store squinting at the ingredient label wondering. I'm telling you, Prima protein bars are safe. Go to eatprima.com, use code alexclark20, all one word, for 20% off your first order. That's eatprima, P-R-I-M-A.com, code alexclark20 for 20% off, or grab Prima protein bars at Sprouts, Kroger, King Soopers, and Ralph's Nationwide. There are two versions of me. There's fall and winter Alex, ambitious, thriving, willing to do a full skincare routine. And then there's July, August Alex, who's standing in front of the mirror saying, do I really need to go to church today, or can I just live stream this from under my ceiling fan? Sometimes you just need to show your face somewhere, but you cannot muster the energy for a full glam routine. That's me every single Sunday in the summer when it's time to get ready and go to church. That's why my summer makeup has become so simple, okay? It's a little bronzing cream from Adele Natural Cosmetics, some Adele mascara, and then I'm out the door looking like I actually spent time outside on purpose instead of hiding in air conditioning. If my skin is feeling dry from being in the sun, I use their Blue Lagoon Face Balm. I love putting that on at night, and then sometimes before makeup because it leaves my skin feeling hydrated without feeling greasy. What I love about Adele is they're a Christian conservative family-owned company in Texas making thoughtfully formulated makeup and skincare right here in the USA. They believe beauty should enhance what God already created, not cover it up. And if you're ever struggling ordering foundation online, they even have a color matching service where a real person helps you find your perfect shade. Go to AdeleNaturalCosmetics.com and use code Alex for 25% off your first order. That's AdeleNaturalCosmetics.com, code Alex for 25% off your first order. If every couple was going to sit down tonight at the dinner table and they were going to define, you know, what that family culture looks like, what their wishes for education looks like before they start homeschooling, potentially, if that's what they decide to do, what are some of those things that the wife could bring up at dinner tonight to discuss? What do we want our children's education to look like? And loop the kids into this conversation and ask them if they're currently in traditional school, does it look like it now? How do you like to learn? What does it look like right now? What are the hardest parts of your day? And then what are your favorite parts of childhood? And asking your spouse, what have been some of your favorite parts of watching our children? What have you seen our children grow so far? And what are you hoping to see more of? What can we do better to support their childhood? And then asking the question, what do you view, especially if you have older kids, but definitely ask your spouse, what do you view our home culture as? And it might not be a conversation that you've ever had, and it might not be something that you even realize is being built. But the more intentional you can be, the better. Because if you're not able to communicate with your children, if you're sending your kids to school, they are absorbing the school culture. Right. And the school culture is not neutral. Yeah, this is interesting. Okay, so I just did a really unique thing the other night. So I don't know if you're familiar at all with the Free Press, Barry Weiss's, like, I don't know, media outlet. They do this thing where in different cities across the United States, you can get together with other Free Press leaders. And what's unique about the Free Press is they're really big diversity of thought and opinions and different political views. So it's not a super right-leaning outlet. It's not a super left-leaning outlet. And so you go to a dinner with strangers, and you talk about just topics and debate. So we were tasked with, because it's America's 250th birthday, the one prompt, and they let you sit, they say, we're not going to tell you what to talk about. We're going to give you one prompt to help you get started at this dinner. And the prompt was, what is the most underappreciated thing about America? And I said, the freedom to home school. Because in a lot of countries, people don't realize this, homeschooling is illegal. And we really do have, and I know some states are better than others, but we have so much freedom to homeschool our kids in this country. It really is a gift for those that choose to do that. And so I said this, and, you know, there's just different opinions at the table. And I would say, besides my fiance and I, everybody was completely, like, they had no clue about homeschooling. And so that was a big thing, was they really didn't know what to do. And so they were like, well, we're going to really believe, the other people at the table believed, it is possible to have a neutral education, a neutral learning environment where there's no worldview being pressed on your kids or imprinted on your children. And we were trying to argue that that's not true. There's always some sort of worldview. So it's interesting to me to hear from you as somebody who is trained in traditional education. You've been a teacher, you've been a principal, now you're a homeschooling mom. What is the reality? Is it possible for a child to go to a traditional school setting away from the home and have a complete, complete, complete, complete, complete, complete, complete, complete, completely, completely, completely, completely, completely, completely, completely, absolutely, completely, completely, completely, completely, completely, completely, absolutely not. Absolutely not. And, and no one's at fault for this. No one's at fault that they cannot receive a neutral education in school, but it's reality. It's reality because we're human. And you're going to have admin that have their opinions, and you're going to have teachers that have their opinions. And you're going to have even above that districts and state level rules that are enforced. The school environment, as a whole, is pushing a hidden curriculum. And we worry so much about the actual curriculum that's being taught in school, which is very fair. But when you, when you come down to, oh, okay, I don't know, actually, if I want my daughters to grow up and think that they always have to be quiet and raise their hand and do what they're told. And oh, actually, I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with my children thinking getting a wrong answer is, is bad. And oh, I don't, I don't know if I like a lot of these small things that are happening every day. It makes the environment very difficult for kids to process anything that makes them uniquely their own, because they get to school, they hold it together. The majority try not to get in trouble. They try to follow all the rules. They try to do as they're told. And that is a culture in itself. You talk about the non-homeschooling spouse becoming the protector of the family's vision. Oh, sure. So you have this big conversation and you know your why, you know why you're both on the same page to homeschool. It is going to be hardest for the spouse, and it's often mom, for the spouse and the thick of it, the homeschooling mom to maintain that vision, because she's on the front line. You're on the front line. And it's hard. You know, I always say you have to choose your heart and homeschooling is the heart I would choose. Every single time. But it's hard. Yeah. And so on those days, my husband has now become the absolute rock. I mean, and I give him a very hard time in the beginning of our journey. But now it's like. He's the one that reminds you of the why. Oh, absolutely. And he's able to because of his position. And as the leader of our household, not only do I respect that and respond well to it, and not only does it encourage me, but man, does it also encourage our children. If you found out tomorrow that your daughter wanted to become a public school teacher, what would you say? Oh, you know, we always encourage our kids, you can do anything, you can do anything. However, as their parents, we are also guiding them down a path where we see them being successful and happy. Happiness and joy and continuing the culture that we're building in our family is very important. So I would give her the very honest truths about my view on that and why it would be a challenge. Funny enough, my oldest, though, very much, I mean, she and I talk about it often. So she very much knows the hard truths. Oh, yeah. About education. About education. Tell us about your book, The Homeschool Bible. It is so beautiful. When I first started homeschooling, I felt like, most of the books I was finding were very feelings-based and very vague instructions as to actually how to do it. And so instead, they were very emotional and very encouraging books. But I just wanted to hold something in my hands and tell me what to do next. And I couldn't find it. And so I wrote it. This book, when you decide your why, which is the first chapter of the book, when you sit down and decide your why, this book then, carries you. Okay, you know what you're going to do. Now, let me give you the clarity from pre-K to graduating. Here's how you can build it for your family. This isn't how I do it. This isn't a book on, this is what we do daily. This is how to develop what's going to work for your family. Love. Because every homeschool is different. This is really smart. I really love that you did this. I'm so excited to read that. Talk about your Instagram. Your Instagram is also so well done. Are you like extremely organized, scheduled type of person? Absolutely. I'm trying to break that. Your Instagram even reflects that. It's very beautiful. Thank you. When we started homeschooling, I had no family members that homeschooled. I had no friends that homeschooled. I could not name a single homeschooler I knew. And walking away from my career, I lost a network of friends, of colleagues. And it was very difficult because my kids, their friends, they were still at the where they very much needed mom and dad to plan their. playdates and whatnot. But their friends' parents all knew me as their children's principal. So it was just a strange, it was a strange dynamic of us as a family feeling very isolated for a period of time. And of course, I knew more than anything, we would need community. Not knowing anyone that homeschooled, I actually got on Instagram to see if I could find anyone else in the world who homeschools. And it's like, boy, did everyone in the world show up. And it's been amazing. I started just sharing, this is what I'm doing. Is anyone out there? I'm just looking for other families that homeschool. And the response was incredible. I noticed that so many moms were in the exact same position that I was, new, not 100% sure what they were doing, but excited to give it a try and wanting to share ideas, encouragement. All of it. And that's how I initially got on Instagram and have just been blessed by now knowing such a wide and beautiful community of homeschool families. Is homeschooling only for a one-income household where one parent stays home? Is it only for people that make a certain amount of money? Is it only for certain races or religions? No, no. And that's another reason and a big part of my book, because I've been in the community for a long time. And I've been in the community for a long time. It is really for any family. It could be for every family. If you are willing to homeschool, it can definitely work in your family. And it's incredible. But the resources, the options, everything that's available today is getting better and better. There are so many now free resources and free curriculums as well. And my husband and I, we've had periods in time where I didn't work and I stayed home. And I've been now I'm back to working, but I'm working from home. I know amazing single moms at homeschool. I know situations where grandma and grandpa are actually homeschooling because of a parent's work schedule. And so if you decide that it's for you, there's a way. Is there any, I always get questions about the single parent. Is there any buddy that's like an influencer on this topic or author, anything that you recommend for anybody wanting to know how to homeschool as a single parent? Yes, Claire. Claire, she was on the show. Oh, Claire Denault. Yes. Oh, yeah, yeah. Duh, I had her on. Yeah, she is the best. If you Google Claire Denault, The Spillover or Claire Denault, Alex Clark, then that episode will come up. It's from before the show rebranded to Culture Apothecary. It was the old name. But that is one of my most popular homeschooling episodes I've ever done. So if you want to hear a beautiful presentation of why you should homeschool and how to do it, I forgot she is a single parent. Tell us your Instagram handle. Oh, homebuilteducation. Okay. If you could offer heal us at culture physically, emotionally or spiritually, what would it be? For parents to trust themselves and to hold education at home. Beautiful. Mandy, thank you for coming on Culture Apothecary. Thank you so much for having me. Mandy really is that girl. Don't forget to go back and look up other homeschooling episodes I've done with Claire Denault, for example, or Heidi St. John. Don't forget those will be under The Spillover, my old title of the show before I rebranded. New episodes of Culture Apothecary release every Monday and Thursday at 6 p.m. Pacific, 9 p.m. Eastern, wherever you listen to podcasts. Join the Cute Servatives Facebook group for more discussion on this episode and others. And don't forget to leave a five star review if it's been a while that helps the show climb the podcast charts and become discoverable. I'm Alex Clark, and this is Culture Apothecary.