‘Your Consumers Are Your Creators, Affiliates & Referrers’ — Kira Mackenzie Jackson On The Future of Influencer Marketing & The Right Way to Scale

The following podcast is a Deer Media production. You just started MPH, which is extremely iconic. What are you learning about the beauty industry? If you are a founder looking to start a business period, I would start with what are my strengths? Where am I the best in the world? And then build your team accordingly? The algorithm is designed to show you exactly what you already like. If you don't break out of that, how are you ever going to learn what another person might be interested in? The reality is that in 15 years, everybody's going to be walking around like supercharged robot versions of themselves and if you don't, like, you will fall behind. Hi, I'm Sif Hyder, the founder of Ferret. I'm a wellness entrepreneur and digital creator and this is my show, The Dream Bigger Podcast. Listen, I love dreaming big. But you know what I love more? Actually having the resources to make those big dreams happen. And hey, dreams can sometimes be private jets. But other times, they can look a little something like having the best skin of your damn life or starting a successful business or delving into spirituality. So on this podcast, I chat with experts and thought leaders from different fields about their tips and tricks on doing exactly that. So let's get right into it. Okay, so you just started at MPH, which is extremely iconic. What are you learning about the beauty industry and like marketing in the beauty industry, which is like, I guess like, is it different from other industries? What are you finding? Okay, this is a great question because there are so many similarities but also differences. I think the way that the consumer shops is just a little bit different. Then obviously I come from a D to C background. And then prior to that was invested in primarily D to C first brands. Oh yeah, I didn't even think of that because is the beauty shop or more like in person Sephora? Yes, like it's very tactile. And shade matching is like a whole other sort of ballgame. Like you want to be able to like feel the formula and swatch it and make sure that it's the right bit. So yeah, I would say that's the biggest difference. There are so many similarities though. Like I think the beauty consumer, they care so deeply about the brand affinity. And you know, I've heard in the past that there's not a lot of loyalty and beauty and I actually see the opposite. I completely disagree with that. Like when I find something, unless it's sold out and I have to swap to something else. Yes. And then I'll be loyal to that product because I'm like, well, now this is working for me. I feel like I'm so loyal to my beauty products. It's like on a different kind of scale. Me too, especially with complexion. Yes. I have used the same foundation I think for nine years. Oh my gosh. Yes. Like I have not switched. And the other one that I have is like, which I'm not wearing foundation right now. I'm wearing like a face, like, I guess like tint or whatever. Oh, it looks good. What is it? There's a Dior one, the stretch one. Oh, it's lighter. And then my foundation of choice has been Armani luminous silk. I just feel like switching is so hard. I know. Well, here's helping. I can get you to switch it up. Well, I've heard. I've heard amazing things. I mean, I'm like the face, like I love the face painting kit. It's so good. Yeah. The gloss. I feel like all the it-girls have been wearing it. Oh, thank you. Including you. Actually, thanks. I'm wearing can't stop. It's so good. So, so then how, I guess like, how are you growing beyond D to C? Like, what are your tactics? Like, tell me how you're kind of adjusting. Yeah. So, okay. So the business is primarily a retail business. Yeah. Your Sephora. Our relationship with Sephora is so good, so strong. We're growing with them hugely. And honestly, like our penetration in Sephora, there's so much opportunity within that space that I'm really excited to uncap. But I do see an opportunity for the brand to grow its D to C presence. And not necessarily in the sense to like take more market share from Sephora. I think it's a very different buyer, frankly. It is. But D to C is nice because you got to know your consumer on a more intimate level. And you can also give them like a brand experience that you can't necessarily replicate at shelf. So, I'm excited to balance the two. We have a lot of like really exciting expansion coming up. So, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like you came in at such an interesting time because I feel like the inflection point. Exactly. It was like at an inflection point. Also, I feel like the brand kind of launched and blew up. I think what they did really right was that they launched with that underpainting palette. And so, I want to talk about that because I have feelings about how a brand should launch. And like having a hero product, tell me your thoughts. 100%. We have been going back and forth on this. I mean, it's like obviously top coat launched, which is our lip gloss. And it exploded because people are like obsessed, obviously. You have that like immediate color payoff. It's exactly like that like still comfortable, but like super shiny, pigmented, yes, all the things. But gloss is not nearly as to our earlier point as like retention oriented of a category. That consumer is not nearly as loyal to the product. So, what I'd love to do is bring people in through the method. And really like our moat as a brand is Mary's technique. It's her method as an artist. And what is at the crux of that? It's underpainting. And that's why the underpainting palette is so iconic. Everything is designed to be layered on top of that. So it's widely skinned. Like the whole campaign was get on top. It's this like super beautiful, glowy, sheer, seromy foundation that just like goes perfectly on top of underpainting. So the concept is you start with underpainting, kind of like upsell into foundation. You need all of the artistry brushes, of course. And then you kind of like go through lip, for instance. Okay, so I have a question for you. MPH is such a unique case because it really is this, it's become so iconic because Mary Phillips is so iconic. And then obviously like, like go on her for building the kind of team that she has because obviously like just being a great makeup artist isn't enough. Like you have to have all of the trappings of like building a strong brand on top of that. But what would you say to founders who are launching a beauty brand who don't have this like star face who's the founder. Okay, so I want to separate, that's a great question. I want to separate star face into two different categories. You have the star face who's the celebrity or an influencer or a creator who has an audience and can likely convert that audience. I hope they can convert the audience if they're launching a business, but you have that sort of a face. You have what I think MPH has done extremely well, which is the artist. Yes, the expert, the expert who's creating a product because they know that category better than anybody else. That's the type of business that as an investor, I would want to invest. Yes, but it's also the type of business where that type of a founder has, I wouldn't necessarily call it like being humble. But I think, I think the right founders know what they're phenomenal at and they know where they have opportunity to grow. Or where they have no interest in being frankly in the business. And if you're a founder looking to start a business period, I would start with what are my strengths? Where am I the best in the world and then build your team accordingly? For founders that are not necessarily like a face, I would say good on you. You're probably actually coming in with a huge leg up because you got to build from ground zero. The problem that I think a lot of brands have when they're too connected to a brand face is they can't elevate beyond how big that stardom is. They sort of like pale in comparison or fall into the shadows. And that's our challenge as like the team at the brand to make sure that it doesn't happen that we can scale the business bigger than any one human. But I would say if you are launching a brand with no platform, there's nothing wrong with building community in the get go. And when I say community, I think a lot of people think, okay, that's thousands of people and it feels too big to even like too insurmountable to even tackle. Start with community of five people build that community to 15 people and then slowly but surely allow that aperture to widen to the point where maybe you have a hundred people in your community. I think it depends on the category and like how involved you want community input to be there's something to be said for too much community insight. As long as you know your north star as a founder, you know the niche that you're looking to fill the gap in the market then building the community will allow you to have basically an army of little minions that can support you and like spreading the good word when you do launch. What do you think is the balance between and I do think it's a fine balance between being community centric but then also like falling prey to too much. And I do think that there's a happy medium where you take and put from your community but at the same time like you are also someone who can intrinsically know what they need before they do you know what I mean. A hundred percent what's the fine balance here. I mean it's so easy to get distracted by other people's opinions about your brand. I think for me like the catalyst is volume when you see like a huge volume wave of consumers asking for the same thing. It is likely because there's a market for that. Totally. Where I see a lot of founders getting disrupted is they might got three comments or a couple of DMs and be like oh so and so once this let's let's design into it or let's like create this product. and that's when you waste a ton of energy, time, money on building something that like there isn't a consumer for. I also, by the way, think it's the same thing with feedback, like product feedback. Yes. I think that like brands need to kind of understand what is the critical mass when you start to pay attention to feedback versus like the odd one or two people. You know what I mean? I feel like we've identified what that is for our product where it's like, okay, if it's like over whatever percent of consumers who are like telling us something negative then it's something to pay attention to. Otherwise, it's just not enough for us to be like, okay, we're going to change formulations and like switch directions altogether. No, totally, but I also think like you can get, you can get ahead of so much of that by building a diverse team from day one. Like I think one, one thing that I noticed with a lot of founders is a build teams of yes people and, I mean, we could talk about that, you, you've done like the opposite of that. You've built like the most collaborative team and I admire it so much. Like a lot of founders, I don't mean to say like they're insecure, but it's, if it's your first time being an entrepreneur, it is intimidating. And you want people around you who can say, I see your vision, I'm going to execute on that vision. But there's a fine line between that. And I will say yes to everything that you say and I'm sort of like a copy of who you are and how you think. It's really important to build your team with diverse opinions, diverse backgrounds and diverse perspectives because then all of that insight can be ladded into like the initial product instead of like launching something and then having to go back and be like, oh my god, we're getting so much feedback. So then how are you, when you are hiring a team, how do you ensure that you have that diversity because I, by the way, completely agree with you and I would never in my life hire someone who is like a blind yes man to what I think because I actually think it's very detrimental to the company because the thing is that Nish and I think God, like you know, I have a co-founder and we are so diverse in how we think like, of course, very aligned with the final goal, but like we will absolutely debate and we encourage our team members to do the same. So never hire someone who like comes in to an interview and is like kind of meek, you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean like you want somebody who is confident enough in knowing what they know to have an opinion and to be confident enough to have a contrarian opinion. Yes. And in this day and age, like frankly, that is so difficult to find, not just in hiring, but also in like your friends. You always want, you want to encourage natural, like light conflict. You want to be able to have those conversations and if you can't, then the team that you have is not the right team. I agree. I will also say though, when someone is a contrarian, I feel like there is also, or like has a contrarian thought, I feel like there is also a way to have that conversation that isn't like aggressive or rude. And so like I want to talk about that a little bit because I feel like you need to come at it from like still like calm but confident, you know what I mean? Yeah, of course. You should have the receipts for what you are saying. And it is your job as an employee to come with those receipts, say this is what I believe to be the best for the business based off of my experience and yada yada yada. But at the end of the day, have like the respect for leadership that they will make the best decision that they see fit for the business, leveraging the information that you brought to the table. So yeah, you're right, it is a delicate balance. It is, but I think like there's a way to do it the same way that when I'm with my friends, if we disagree on something that's completely fine. Yeah, but I think just having a respectful discourse I think is important. No, totally, but also it's like it's why I have such a problem with, I mean, okay, I'm going to say I have a problem with social media and technology, but I also love social media and technology for so many reasons. But like the algorithm is designed to show you exactly what you already like. So you are literally sitting in an echo chamber to 24/7. For me, fall is the coziest season of the year. I love spending time at home. I love cooking, I love hosting and making meals, and one of my favorite things is really beautiful kitchenware because it also gets me really excited to cook, which is why I am such a fan of Caraway Home. So most of the actually almost everything on my kitchen is Caraway Home. 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Now that I have a baby that's a few months old, I've been looking into what I can do to ensure that she is fed correctly in a couple of months when she starts solids. I can't believe this time is, you know, coming up on me as quickly as it is. So I've been talking to a lot of my friends and the recommendation that I have gotten over and over again is little spoon. So little spoon makes it very easy to feed your kids with nutritionally balanced meals and snacks designed for every stage. And honestly they really do have things for every stage from baby stage because they have organic infant formulas for those first bottles and then move on to baby cereal and baby blends when solids begin, first bites, first spoons, all of it. Plus they think of everything. If you need targeted nutrients to supplement, baby blends plus, if you need purest to go, baby blends pouches. I'm telling you, they have thought of quite literally everything. And it's designed for the stage babies are in, made with simple ingredients and tested for over 500 contaminants, including heavy metals. This is something that so many of my mom friends have recommended. And I love that they have things for every stage of your baby's life. Feeding kids does not have to be complicated, little spoon makes it easy with real nutritionally balanced meals and snacks designed for every stage. It shows up, ready to go, takes the pressure off and somehow still gets devoured, veggies and all. No artificial dyes, flavors or sweeteners either and you know what, that's a win I'll take every time. At 30% off your first order online at little spoon dot com slash dream bigger with code dream bigger. That's L-I-T-T-L-E-S-P-O-O-N dot com slash dream bigger with code dream bigger for 30% off your first order. Are you following different types of people because I specifically do that. That is so smart. I've found that I have to have different accounts. I'm so curious how you do it because like I'll follow a diverse range of people and then I'll still get kind of like funneled into topics. So yeah, I have a different like finster and that's smart. That's actually kind of smart. So for me, what I will do, obviously like the algorithm is so interesting because like if it sees that I'm going too much into one type of content that will feed me more of that even though it may not be something I agree with because I'm just curious. So I'm like always like I'll always go and like dig because the thing is for me if I don't know how Someone who's different from me is thinking then I don't have any empathy and I'm like oh my god But if you go in and you're like okay, but why do you think the way you think and by the way this is for everything Right, this is for like consumer behavior. This is for psychology. This is for Personal belief systems all of it. I actually think it's really really important So I'll go spend time on like people's accounts who I don't necessarily like the you know They wouldn't be my best friend, but I'm just like curious about what they think. Yeah, you have to understand their point So I have a question for you. Do you ever change your mind? Absolutely isn't that so cool that you can do that like I find That is also sort of a rare trait. You listen. There is my favorite thing is strong beliefs loosely held I love that and I think it's it it is something that carries over a cross for me like in the business I will never be so married 10 idea that if someone comes to me and they're like Here are the receipts. I think I should be done differently. I'm never gonna be so married 10 idea that I'm like no Yeah, this is it my way or the like no no prove me wrong. I love that I love to be proven wrong. I tell my team this all the time I want them to tell me what is the best I'm gonna tell them hey as a consumer This is how I would react to it, but like I want them to say no, no, no, we can make it even better or you're looking at it so wrong Yes, because then I think with that with that tension I feel like then you end up at the right idea because then Everyone has kind of said their piece you've like thought through all of the different layers and then you land on something that actually like Feels aligned from every perspective, which I think is at the end of the day where that idea needs to be to begin with to be a strong idea Yeah, you said something earlier though that is that sort of like that's the bow that ties it all together and as long as you have It's like that shared vision for the end goal. Yes, that is the critical piece and then The like the mutual respect allows that dialogue agree. Yeah agree I feel like that's the same for relationships, too Absolutely, I it's funny like I feel like at the end of the day how you behave in a in a like a company It's like also I feel like it should be mimicking the relationships that you have which hopefully you are respectful and like kind and all of those things You know, yes, we help. Yeah, we hope we hope you probably are You know, okay, so I also want to know what are the brands that you are currently paying attention to MPH aside? Oh my gosh This is all this is the hardest question because there are so many. I mean right now dairy boys top of mind shout out bitch It's crazy the game the app like come on. It's just it's so good It's so good, and you know what I have even more respect is that she's this like big influencer Yeah, and she is not lazy in terms of how she's doing that brand It's like the attention to detail we have a chat on Instagram with like all the people on our brand team And it's always dairy boy content that's being funneled into that chat because it's so strong and so thoughtful Yeah, I think when you understand a consumer that Intimately to know that you know, you want to encourage app downloads So you're gonna drop a product that everyone's dying for the camo people have been dying for her to bring that back And then you gamify it with an app Game on the app to make you download the app like it's just it's so it's so clever and so far we're thinking So I love I love brands like that that are just like Yes, they're sort of like drop-based model brands or D to C brands But they're doing something really unique and the reason why they're doing it is because they know their customer Like the back of their hand and that's really inspiring to me I think Chanel beauty is doing something Fascinating too. I love what Katie Welch is doing there. I just had breakfast with her and I'm like this woman is Jania so smart like I came out of that breakfast so energized I mean she's crushing it. Yeah, and she's just a good person too, and I feel like I never saw no no hate no shade to Chanel I never saw Chanel beforehand, but now I mean the way that they're thinking about community building Is really interesting like they did this mass seeding. I'll never forget this I have like a Chanel trunk at my house. Yes, you have it. Yes, the black one with it And it's so nostalgic and I'm literally the tiniest person like I can't even believe that she sent it to me frankly But I will forever be indebted to the brand because of that I will wear her serum and I use oh my god this like gorgeous cream Camellia cream I think because she sent it and I will keep rebuying it because I feel seen by the brand which is fascinating I think that that's such a good point that you bring up because I think a lot of the times Brands especially people who are like new to brand building feel like oh, I need to just gift the biggest influencers Yeah, and I think that that's a miss personally because I'm like the micro creators are actually like first they have a lot of Pull and I just think that you're catching them as they're on the up. Yeah, which is so much better because you can build a Much better relationship that way Something actually that I love that you guys do is you genuinely a harp about this all the time You genuinely treat your community as influencers. Yeah, and that is I mean, it's so smart because like that's your retention model However, it's also like very strategic because in this day and age again with the algorithm Any single person can go viral. So your consumer today might be spending their money on your product But they're only your consumer and not a creator until they make a video about your product Totally and then that goes viral and then all of a sudden they're an affiliate and that is like how cyclical this all is like Ultimately the goal for me is that our consumers our creators are affiliates and refers. I mean, I think that Since 2020 there has been a democratization of who can be an influencer and I think that brands need to pay attention to that and like I will never forget I think it was like 2021 there was this girl who was like a flight attendant and She had no followers, but she was on tick-tock She posted about the fact that she takes bloat on long flights and her video Blue up it was like millions of views that's the value proposition like in one sentence, right? And so I was like why would we sleep on this like, you know You need to be treating your consume and by the way your consumers are the ones who are actually like Making your brand because they're the ones who are spending their dollars to grow your brand. So Let's just include them. Yeah, it's important. Yeah, 100% yeah I love these say that too because it's like if you can arm your community To create content for you too, which is where I so I'm sorry. I'm all over the place But I was rereading have you read essay Lauders autobiography. No, but is it do I need to it is is it amazing mind-blowing How are we not talking about this more like I actually I I found the autobiography because Why is that word so hard? I know I know because I was re-listening to founders the podcast on Astay. Yeah, and he was talking about the book and I was like, okay, I need to read it for myself at this point. She is A visionary she's the person who coined the gift with purchase essentially wow, which Today, it's just table stakes obviously, but like that concept of giving your customer something that they never would have had and saying my product is so good I'm going to allow it to speak for myself that applying it to content creation and saying hey I'm going to give you everything that you need in order to like make a video and like Drop a tease and build some hype. How cool is it to think about your community as Like the first layer of a tease and then you're also giving them the opportunity to become To get viral because they're talking about something before anybody else. Yeah, I don't know I feel like the way sat active does a lot of that. I feel like the way that brands are Like bringing their community members into the fold and actually they're including them in the go-to market strategy is brilliant I mean, I think it is the way to do it. Yeah, like we Anytime we're launching something we always focus group with our community And we like let them try it first give us their feedback and then if they want they can create content But I feel like it's the smartest thing to do because you will actually Like it's so important for them to feel like they're a part of the brand story right from the beginning Yeah, and feel like oh, I had a hand to play and like bringing this product to life I think it's so smart. I do need to read that biography though or autobiography because I'm obsessed with reading Autobiography and biography. Oh, yeah, I know this is so up your alley. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm not done with it yet But like so far so good. Do you know what you need to read afterwards, which I'm I don't know if I've recommended it to you But it like if you're into biographies and stuff of like smart people. Yeah, there is one that the great great granddaughter wrote of the Cartier family Oh my god, it is I think it's like it's my favorite book. Okay, amazing. I'm gonna read that. It's incredible Like it goes over because it was like, you know It's like it was a generational brand. Okay, and Like it's just so good like when you hear about like Louis Cartier and how he thought of the watches and like how he brought in an Architect to then design jewel like it was so interesting. Okay. I just found it I'm gonna buy it. Did you know that John do so? Yes, it's like a great grant. Yep, I don't have a Louis Cartier Yeah, yep in the crazy. Yeah, I started to follow the brand because I was like holy shit I'm like Louis Cartier's biggest fan. Oh my god. No, like truly like if I could bring someone back from the debt to have dinner with, I would probably pick him. - Okay, amazing. Because now after reading this book, I would say, "I'll stay a lotter." - Really? - Yeah. - But I haven't read the cardia back. - Okay, well, I'm gonna read. - We're gonna do a little swap, I love it. Oh my gosh. Okay, so speaking of influencers and all of that, how do you think brands should think about influencers in this day and age? Because obviously this isn't ever evolving conversation. I think influencers are so important. There needs to be a strategy, but how do you think it works nowadays? - Oh, I mean, that's such a loaded question. I think, I think about influencers in three buckets. I think about partnering with creators for awareness. I think about partnering with creators for content, and I think about partnering with creators to drive conversion. - Yeah. - And I think as long as those fields are really clear, like the who and the how, that's where it gets a little muddy. Because, again, the market changes so much, like I would put community members into like conversion drivers because they're refers. So if you have, it's like the old school MLM model, if you can arm your customer with affiliate codes, then with like a democratized platform, like shot my or locker or whatever, then like that in and of itself becomes a conversion channel. But regardless, like I think when I think about the opportunity with creators, I do a lot of gift-in. I believe in seating and like unpaid relationships to start. I believe there is a time and a place to pay a creator for content. I see that as being a little bit of like a longer term relationship. Like I think in my dream world, you see thousands of people, you allow the cream to rise to the top. From that, you select high. And these five people drive crazy revenue or just like crazy awareness engagement, whatever your KPI is. And then you give them the opportunity to either invest in the brand or partner with you over a year period. Yes. And like allow that exclusivity to like build confidence in the relationship. Like the consumer will see that this creator consistently talks about you and they don't talk about competitors. They associate that with trust. And yeah, I completely agree. And also I will say, I think it's really strategic from a, like if I were to put a creator hat on and I'm like positioning myself as like a creator, that's what I would do. I would personally start to support the brands that I love organically consistently post about them. So my community knows that I'm a fan and that it's real. And then take on those partnerships as they come through. I feel like nowadays, because again, like as this democratization has happened, there's also like, there's been, there's so many creators, which by the way, I think it's amazing because there's room for everyone. But I feel like also consumers can call bullshit really easily. And so I feel like, you know, having a relationship with a brand that's very authentic. I think it's actually a win-win for everyone because as a creator, I think it builds credibility. And as a brand, you are able then to partner with the people who you know actually love the brand. - Yeah, I recently signed with DBI and we've been thinking about like what my strategy is as like a quote unquote creator. And what I essentially wanna do, what I envision for the future of my life is like thinking about my life as if it were a pie chart and carving out slivers for every little aspect of what I do and how I live and then monetizing it through relationships with the brands that I hear out. So for instance, like what food do I feed my dog? Like what formula do I give my baby? Like how do I clean my house? I mean, it's literally so nitty gritty that it's like I would rather have one partnership in each of those different slivers and categories that's ongoing, that's authentic to the way I wanna live and just like monetize my life and have it all be integrated and yeah, transparent. Like it's truthful because there's no other brand. - Yeah, I love that and I really do think that that is the smartest way to go about things. I think that people sense loyalty. - Yeah. - Like as an example Shopify is a partner of the show and when I got that email, I was like this is quite literally my dream partnership because I think it was like in 2020, our first Black Friday, I posted this video like 2020. This was like literally like a way was baby. I had this video of like the Shopify sound and how it like feels to every founder. And so I was like, I would never switch from Shopify. It's like literally the piece of advice I give to anyone who's like, how can I start a brand? I'm like Shopify. - Yeah, that's how you do it. - That is so and that good on Shopify for understanding a Shopify actually I should add to my list of brands that I think is doing very, very well. - Oh my, I know. And they're Canadian, which is like my pride and joy as a family. - Are they really? - Yeah. - They're like their head office is in Toronto like literally down the street from my apartment. And I'm like, this is like they brought the scene to, listen, like I could write a novel on how I'm a Shopify stan for life. - I love this. - And I feel like all the best companies and people come from Canada. - Oh, thank you. (laughing) - Okay, I want to talk a little bit about creators as investors. I think that this is the future. I feel like it's been heading this way for a long time. What are your thoughts? - I mean, I agree wholeheartedly. I literally just talked to, do you know Tariro Makone? - No. - She is breaking brilliant. She has a substat called trademarked. It is actually one of my favorite substats to read, I would say. Besides like Anna Angelics. - Yeah. - And she wrote an article for Vogue Business on the rise of the influencer investor and invited me to comment on it. I was so honored, but it was so viral. First of all, I feel like there's such an appetite for this. And I think both sides are becoming more educated. So the brands are becoming more educated in how to structure those deals and the management firms as well. Because that was actually, I think, the piece that made the whole industry lag. And then creators are becoming more educated in like, they don't need cash compensation all upfront. Let's do a little bit of cash, a little bit of long term. And they want equity and brands. They're fighting for it too. So I think you're starting to see like a meeting of the mines where both sides are seeing it as symbiotic. But again, talk about long term partnerships. It used to be, hey, I'll build an exclusivity with you for three years in this category. Now it's like, okay, let's build an exclusivity on paper for a year, but you're going to invest your money in this. I'm going to give you equity and also warrants for like when you unlock certain initiatives. And because of that, the partnership feels it might last six years until the company sells. And then the influencer actually gets compensated for everything that they've done for that brand. - I mean, I think it is so smart. I mean, when we raised Lauren S. - Lauren and Michael were Lauren specifically and then dear media, they invested in a ray. And I'm like, that was so smart. Because obviously like the company has done well, but also like it's smart on Lauren to like, you know, align herself with this brand, you know? So I feel like it's for creators. I think it's such a smart, and it's long term thinking because when a brand does well, let me tell you, the payday is great. - Yes, when the brand does well, the payday is great. And honestly, when the brand doesn't do well, it's like, yes, you didn't get that upfront cash compensation, but you probably learned a lot from the quarterly updates. - Yes, yes, yes. I think it's like, I just think, and also I think it's a smart way for creators to dip their toes into brand building without actually having done it themselves. - Oh, that is a great point. You know what Alice is really smart is like, they can test markets and opportunities where they want to eventually build a business and see if it resonates. - Yeah, it like, I think that that is the future. - So smart. - And I think that creators, they need to like be aware of the fact that this is happening. And like, you know, I think have conversations like if someone is really obsessed with the startup, then like I think going in and being like, do you have investment opportunities? I think it's really smart. - Oh my gosh, yeah, I don't know why so many creators that I talk to, they feel like intimidated to go ask for an opportunity to invest or equity, but it's like you bring so much inherent value. - I agree. - Why wouldn't you just try? - I agree. - It's the same for like when you're being hired, I would say too. Like if you believe in the company, you see yourself staying there for a really long time, maybe they're not able to pay you as much as you want, but advocating for yourself for other opportunities, if that is equity, I think it's worth a try always. - Always, I completely agree. (upbeat music) - When I moved from Toronto to LA, all my boxes came months after I had moved. 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If you've been on the investment side, what do you think makes a brand successful? Hmm. Also a related question. I think a fabulous operating team makes a brand successful. I think, I think the idea and the product are very, very important, but I feel like at this day and age, like they're both table stakes agree. Like that is just what you need to do to play in the space. An incredible operating team. That is the first thing that I look for. The second is a strategic approach to spending money. And I say that thoughtfully because I see a lot of brands that are afraid to spend money. And if you're afraid to spend money, you won't make money. But I also see a lot of brands that are definitely not afraid to spend money and spend willy-nilly and don't have any strategy behind how they spend. So I guess that lot is back to like operating mentality, but that piece. And then also a brand that is willing to grow and scale sustainably. I think it is very appealing nowadays with all of the news about investments and M&A to say, okay, I'm going to raise a sh*t ton of money. I'm going to launch in 600 doors and I'm going to be super successful like more often than not when a brand does that and doesn't have the right infrastructure in place. You're not able to meet that many customers, that diverse range of customers where they need to in order to drive sell-through. And then you're stuck where you have a sh*t ton of sell-in and you're not driving sell-through, you lose shelf space and then those are the brands that f as well. Yeah. Honestly, I feel like this isn't talked about enough, but I feel like being really methodical about retail is so important and I feel like people are like, oh yeah, I'm going to launch in, I'm going to get into a Sephora target and then that's it, like I'm going to sail off into the sun. No. That's not how it works. Once you go in, you have to drive velocity otherwise you're going to get kicked out and it's going to kill your business. And I feel like people don't realize this. They think that just getting in, they've done their job and the more doors, the better actually know, I think that the less doors in the better sell-through, the better. Yeah. And to your earlier point about launching with the Hero product, so smart to focus on one, two, maybe three Hero products that like tell the story, but like if you are spreading you're like seed across nine different categories or whatever, like your customer is not going to understand what you're for totally. And you do not have the power across your channels or even a retail partners channels to like drive sell-through across all of those different products that require different levels of education. I completely agree, I think spraying and praying is like just, it's not the right strategy, especially if you have a limited budget. I think it's so much smarter to hero in on one thing and then expand once you start to kind of gain that traction and have that credibility and all of that versus like launch with 10 different products. Like that's a very difficult story to tell. Didn't you launch with just bloat? bloat and calm. Just chill. At what stage were you like, okay, we're going to launch our next thing and like what was the catalyst to tell you that it was that time? It was almost two years after launching the brand that we launched a third product which was sleep, which by the way, like if I could go back I probably wouldn't launch sleep as like the product, even though it has like it's such an incredible product. Yeah, it is. But I think that I would have just gone directly deeper into digestive health, which is what we did afterwards. Uh-huh. And now, you know, we have tribiotic, we have constipation, we have bloat gummies, all of these things which support the digestive health category. But I think if I could go back in time, I would have gone category by category, which we learned pretty quickly versus like initially the reason we launched sleep was like we were like, okay, we're launching like foundational things that people need help with. But I think I would do, I would become category king before moving on to the next category, you know? Yeah. And also two years is like virtually unheard of. I was like, I know. And it was because, and that's, you know, when people thought of a ray for a very long time, it was like, and even still like I'll bump into people on the street and being like, oh, like your bloat capsules. And it's because for two years bloat was our product. Like that was the only, like calm was there, but it was like almost like a supporting one. But bloat got that virality and we just like hammered in with our messaging. I feel like it's much easier to do that than to launch with like five or six. And then I have to tell all of these different stories. And it's very difficult for a consumer to be like, okay, but what do you, what do, what do I go to you for? Totally. Like just telling me like short and sweet, you know? Yeah. I guess I'd call you out that with like if you're launching with a system, like I think what real active. Totally. Totally. Yeah. With like four products, the system, whatever. But then also that was really grounded in Alex Earl's story and like it being like an acne, safe brand, I feel like it tells that story. Yes. I think you can get away with doing that if you know, you are either an expert or an influencer, someone who's like had a specific issue that they've like very publicly solved. Yeah. I think that that works. But I think like with a startup, like I'm talking about a startup with like a scrappy budget, like one thing is like. So I mean, even just from an inventory standpoint. Oh my God. Yeah. Don't even get me. Alex, honestly, if she was like not an influencer, didn't have a budget, she has obviously fund behind her. She could have just launched the Vandalic acid. Exactly. Exactly. And then like round from there. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I mean, if someone is wanting to start a brand and is not Alex Earl, but like similar story, just launch with the one product that will help with someone's acne and then like build on top of that. That's what I would do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I'm going to go into audience questions. Okay. That I got from, I think like nine or 10 people sent this is your AI tips. How do you use it for productivity? Oh my God. I'm so honored. Okay. They're probably asking because they already know. But for context, I built my own chief of staff who lives on a Mac mini on my desk at home. She is on 24/7 because she's on a computer that doesn't have a screen. So whenever I want, and I communicate with her via text, so like I set her up with her own eye clouds. Wait, how did you do this? What platform are you using? Like I do need further details. Okay. Yes. I set her up on open claw. But I gave her access to like, she has chat. She has clawed. She uses duck.go to like crawl the internet. I just recently set her up with like a calling capability. So she can like call the hell did you set this up? I mean, honestly, it was like three days of just like intensive. I went into a hole and I just decided that I was going to do this. I know. It's actually like a little bit crazy, but this is the way I am is like I get obsessed with something. And it's open claw. And it's on open claw. Yeah. I've never even heard of open claw. Open claw is incredible. Clawed actually helped me prompt open claw. So I used my claw to basically say like, how do I build this with open claw? And then it was actually like pretty seamless. It's not, it's not like incredibly difficult. It's not rocket science. You're not actually coding anymore. I'm like, I'm a vibe coding, but it does require it's like a little tedious. Okay. So then what does she do? What are her tasks? I mean, like we should, honestly, we should probably just ask her. Does she have a name? Her name's Quinn. Oh my god. I love it. Yeah. Okay, let's just, I also use whisper. When I'm on a podcast, can you outline what you do for me? So like, whisper is really nice because you'll just like talk into it and then it like dictates it for you. I use it on my computer so I don't type emails anymore. It's like, it's actually the best. I do it for like, substox. Yeah, you just hold down the FN key and like it writes everything for you with like perfect punctuation. I very rarely have to fix it. Whisper? Whisper. Oh, I'm learning so much. I'm like, going in and munting all of this today. Oh my God, I'll send you all the links. Yeah, we put it in the shout outs. Oh, fun. You're on the spot. Here's a clean version. Oh, Quinn. I see. She drops Dex briefs emails and her deaths are good. Her deaths are good. Yeah, but that's because I gave her a, what's it called? Like a template. Yeah, like a creative brief. Like she knows all my colors, my fonts, the way that I like things written and so on and so forth. She tracks all of my email threads, reminds me proactively of like anything that I haven't responded to. Like she just texted me this morning. I have to return something. She's like, it's been three days. You said you were going to turn it. What's going on? And I was like, okay, Quinn, I'm on it. She runs a standing earnings watch. Like I listen to all the earnings calls 'cause I like to. But she alerts me when they're coming and she actually gives me recaps proactively. Like I don't, I don't ping her anymore. For all of like elf image, Pooge, Estee Lauder, Ulta, you know, all the things I want to know. Anyways, am I going too long on this question? No, this is incredible. Okay, she is helping with my calendar travel, booking everything, reminders, follow ups, making sure that Kennedy is in all the right classes, which is hard. My daughter, she sends drafts for me, but I, for like emails and stuff that I don't have time to write. Yeah, sorry. Okay, so what did you ask Claude? To spit out for you to do this? Oh, I, I'll just send you the prompt. I made a sub-talk about it. I put it behind a paywall because I felt like, I don't know, that was kind of itchy at me, but I'll send it to you. I think it's like, it should be behind a paywall. This is like gold, my god. It's really, really cool. But I use AI a lot. I mean, like she's one element. I obviously use whisper. I also use a platform called Instinct, which is basically like Quinn, but you don't have to build it. The one thing is like there are some privacy concerns. So like I only really use Instinct for certain things. Quinn has access to literally everything. So if somebody broke into my house and stole her, we'd have a problem like credit card stuff. Yeah, that's incredible. I think so. I feel like I've gotten to a point where I feel really comfortable and excited by using like technology in my life. Oh, I feel like it's, I mean, I know people, there's like really diverse opinions when I'm very divisive opinions when it comes to AI, but I feel like if you're resisting it, you, it's almost akin to someone who is resisting the internet when it came about, you know, and they were like phones or cell phones. And of course, everything comes with its downsides and its upsides, but you can't pretend that it's not happening because this is the future. Yeah. I mean, I think you just need to figure out how to make it work for you. I agree. Because the reality is that in 15 years, everybody's going to be walking around like supercharged robot versions of themselves. And if you don't, like you will fall behind. Yeah. I think what's been really important for me is just figuring out how to maintain some semblance of privacy in the midst of all of that. And it's why I built my own chief of staff, but yeah, it's, you know, we're all learning as we go. Yeah, 100%. Okay, the next question, again, a very, very popular one is how do you balance a successful career in being a mom? Oh, my God, you don't. Oh, honestly, like my daughter this morning, I like got a little choked up when she said it. She was like, mommy is always working. And I was like, yeah, baby. I said, baby, mommy loves to work. Mommy loves you, but mommy also loves to work. I get to go to work now. And I think as long as I'm like always framing it as a positive, I feel very confident in my decision, but you don't balance it. I try to be home for bath time, dinner, most nights. I try to only commit to like two evening events a week. And then I'm there for like mornings, most days. Can I ask you something? Because I think you and I have the same approach here. But you tell me if you agree with me, okay? I personally think that if you are type A at work, you're a type B mom or vice versa. I don't think you can be type A at both. I just got chills. Isn't that true? No, I think you're like 100% right. I mean, like I'm type A in the sense like I find her schools. I make sure she gets her time. But it's not like you're not, you're not needing to do every element perfectly. And I feel like you just have to be okay with that. Like for me, I have non-negotiables when it comes to rain, like certain things. Tell me them. Like for example, you know, I love spending the morning with her, right? Or like making sure that she has the very best nurses who work with us, you know? So those are it right now, she's so little. Like those are my non-negotiables at this time, right? And then when I think of in the future, I want to bring up a child who has really good value systems, knows that she's really loved and also understands that with hard work, you can build whatever kind of life that you want, okay? Just overarchingly. That is where I want to put my energy. Like I'm not out here as an example. If I want to show her that she can build whatever life she wants with the right kind of work, that means I have to be that role model, which also means that then I don't necessarily have time to do every single thing perfectly and that's okay. You're giving her a gift by showing her that and not doing everything for her. Right, you're raising a capable daughter. Exactly. And so like I've decided right from the beginning, what was important to me and what wasn't. So as an example, something that wasn't that important to me was breastfeeding or feeding at night. And I never did. I didn't pump. I didn't breastfeed. I slept through the night from day one. And I have never once felt guilty about it because I wake up in the morning and I'm so present and I'm so excited to hang out with her. You know what, our CEO actually at MPH Hannah who's brilliant in and of herself, she made this comment. She was like, I am not gonna feel bad about anything that like I think she said my 20 year old daughter like wouldn't go back and remember. That's brilliant. That's how I think. And also I have asked myself like before we had rain, Nish and I are very intentional. And so I was like, what, when I was growing up, what did I like, what were my best memories from growing up? And it was always how, number one, how in love my parents were. Number two, how happy. Like when they were happy and present and excited to be around us, like those were my best days. And so I was like, my job is literally to be happy and a loving parent who sets a good example. That's it. And like, that's all I care about. You know, and so that's why I say I'm like type B because I'm not obsessing over every detail. Now, I know everything that's going on, obviously, but I'm not putting pressure on myself to do things perfectly. Like it's okay. Oh my God, it's so fine. My daughter went to school today wearing an Elsa dress from Target, to my nanny. Oh my God. I pained me, but I was like, you know what? Go off. This is not my battle. It's a type B. Type B. Type B, like I, yes, like I love to put rain and cute outfits, but I don't know if our nurse picks out something that I would know. Like it's fine. It's, you know what I mean? I'm like, it's okay. Yeah. We're gonna be fine. Yeah, you'll survive. You'll survive. So I'm like, type A at work, type B as a mom. I love that. I feel like I'm also happier for it. I resonate very much with that. Yeah, and I thought you would because I know like, you, we've had conversations and I feel like how you are a mom is like very much how I am a mom as well. Like I, I agree. I know we're very similar. Yeah, like we love to work and there's no shame in that for me. I'm like, I'm proud that I get to work. Yeah. I hope I can teach my daughter this in the future and like if she sees that I enjoy this so much, then hopefully she'll enjoy it too in the future. Yeah, so I love that. Yeah. Okay, last question. What is one marketing tip you'd give to a service-based business owner? Oh wow, that's interesting. Ooh, to a service-based business. Oh, oh my God. Wow, I don't know if this is gonna be groundbreaking. It's all about relationships. And trust, I mean like service-based business is hard. I'm thinking about my time and working in PR at like the beginning of my career. I remember feeling so uncomfortable at like networking events or whatever because I was like, I'm the one trying to sell something and trying to sell my service, whatever. I needed to flip that on its head. Like I was bringing something of value to the right partner and I was offering that to them at a time that I thought that they needed it. If you can reframe and always come through the lens of I am adding value as long as you authentically are, I would say that's my like number one piece of advice. I actually very much agree because again, I think it goes back to like your community. Yeah, if you were a service-based business, I feel like people are so loyal. My God, they're the most loyal if it's a service-based business. So I feel like if you were making it a good experience and like valuing the relationship, that's how it'll grow. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I also, it's so funny because nobody is like, most people, 99% of people are not actively trying to like tank your business, right? Everybody is going through life and the world, even like in friendships, whatever. Everybody is trying to do their best. Yeah. Everybody wants everyone to be happy and successful. Like there are very few, I mean, I'm sure there are probably more bad apples, but like I really encounter very few bad apples. I agree with that. I agree with that. The intention is there and sometimes the fat isn't really. right? And it is what it is. But for the most part, I try to just say, like, you're not, you're not trying to like scream me over. And I believe that whole heartedly, whether that's like people that are, I'm hiring or like service providers that I hire, whatever mistakes they made are because they thought that that was the best call. I agree with that. And I think it's, it's a much easier way to move through life as well. I think if you, if you like, truly believe that, because that's how I think as well. And I feel like it makes my life a lot easier when I'm not always assuming the worst in people. Yeah. Well, you're also like really busy. So I feel like you're just like distracted a little too. Like you don't have to like hyper focus on what everybody else is doing. 1000%. That's important. Kira, this has been so fun. So like, we can keep going and going. Like that, too. I'm like, looking at the time and like, where did it go? I know it, like, it flew. Tell everyone where they can find you. Okay. My Instagram, I suppose, right there is @KiraMakenzie. My TikTok is @KiraMakens. It ends at the Z. And then just follow MPH. That would make me really happy. And what about your sub-stock? Oh, yeah. My sub-stock is material interest. I really love writing on that. Yeah. I mean, I feel like it's a hot friend that's made for you. Yeah. I need to do more of that. I love you. Thank you for coming on. I love you. Thank you so much for listening. If you love the episode and feel like it brought you value, don't forget to rate the show and leave a review. It takes five seconds. And it really helps the show grow so I can keep bringing on awesome guests. If you want to follow me behind the scenes, you can find me on Instagram @siphider. And don't forget to hit subscribe so you don't miss a thing. I drop you episodes every Tuesday. So come hang with me and shoot the shit with some really smart people. Learn and unlearn and have a lot of fun. See you next week. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.