"Your Body Can't Lie!" Behavior Scientist Reveals The Micro-Signals That Expose Anxiety & Insecurity

- Today's guest is an expert on decoding human behavior. - People who are like, "I'm like too nice. "I am so nice, I'm taking advantage of." Like kindness is my thing. They are the meanest people. - They are secretly sulfuric and mean. - A recovering awkward person, she turned her social anxiety into an obsession with understanding what makes people confident, comfortable, and trustworthy. - So the first three seconds is kind of your brain's hack of like, are we good? Nailing that first impression is really important because it allows the interaction to happen. If you don't nail it, you're gonna trigger them to go into fight or flight. - Today she's living proof that anyone can transform their identity by learning the cues that control their social life. - Have you ever been with someone who is very, very anxious and you can literally smell it? - Why don't people meet me? - I can literally smell their adrenaline. I can smell the fear. - I'm one I want to put them at ease, if I can, but two, I don't want to catch it. - In this episode, we'll break down the signals that expose someone's real intentions. Reveal the psychological tactics that make people trust you and unveil her exact playbook to ensure body language never sabotages your success. - We talk a lot about narcissists and psychopaths those you pass, but actually there's another category that I think is far more prevalent and far more dangerous. - Vanessa Van Edwards. Welcome to the Jack No. podcast. - Thanks for having me. I'm so very curious what we're gonna talk about today. You're driving, I'm here, I'm ready. - Vanessa, you've said when you meet someone, they're hitting cues that create trust or distrust in the first three seconds of mating that. We just pat our official first impression. Why do these first impressions matter so much? And what do people notice about you in the first three seconds of mating them? - Our brains are optimizers. So our brain knows that once we get started in interaction, it's gonna have to focus on conversation, it's gonna have to be smart, it's gonna have to share stories, it's gonna have to have a back and forth. So it wants to get the impression out of the way so it can focus on those other things. So the first three seconds is kind of your brain's hack of like, are we good? So that if we're good, great. It's smooth sailing going forward and I can focus on the content and the questions and the delivery. If it's not good, we kind of go, wait a minute. Uh oh, and that's when a couple of things can happen. So in a good first impression that we have trust, we have rapport. Usually as humans we're trying to answer two basic questions about another person. Can I trust you and can I rely on you? So in a good first impression, you are quickly signaling full of trust. You can trust me, have good intention. And also you can rely on me, I know what I'm talking about. In a good first impression those are answered and we go into a small talk, we go into rapport, we can go into our pitch or presentation. In a bad first impression, you don't answer one of those questions. So either it's a trust issue. Someone signals a red flag where your aminckle begins to light up and goes, I'm a little afraid, I feel uneasy. We get really tense. We start to second guess ourselves. We maybe go in the defensive, we can shut down. And here's where it gets interesting. I think people have different reactions to I don't trust this person. Some people shut down. Like they like go inward, they're really quiet, they want to observe. Other people go in the offensive where they're like, what are you all about? And they try to figure out the trust answer by lots of verbal questions. And so I think that nailing that first impression is really important because it allows the interaction to happen and if you don't nail it, you're gonna trigger them to go into fight or flight. - What'd you notice about me in the first three seconds? - Well, we met on the street. Actually, it was funny. Our first impression was really unique. Do you know why it was really unique? - 'Cause someone was holding Valentine's Day balloons. (laughing) - Yes, so we're on the street and I can see you through the door. And there's a woman carrying like a ton of Valentine's Day balloons right in front of us. And so in a weird way that I think that added some warmth because it was like, hi through the Valentine's Day balloons and I'm like, they're for you. Not really that she walked away. So I actually think ours was pretty good because we had a really good context queue. So context of first impressions also matters. Like think about meeting the same person in a subway versus being someone in a waiting room versus meeting someone in a bar. It's one of the reasons why we like to have safe spaces like happy hours, bars. That's why so many connections are made at networking events. It's because it's safe, like there's nothing to distract us. That I think could have been a very difficult first impression 'cause we were meeting on the street in the lobby of the building but actually it was fine 'cause we have these lovely balloons. So basically I think we should bring Valentine's Day balloons wherever we go. I think that's the takeaway here. Fire someone to bring someone in front of you. Oh we say, I mean a hype gal, a hype guy? There's a reason why we love a hype gal or hype guys 'cause they could be the person. So I'm just gonna have someone with Valentine's Day balloons just walking around. It was interesting. It was since you're an expert in this field, it's that could have been a stressful situation. Like you said, but you took advantage of it in a way of, oh Jack those are probably for you. And I was like, okay that's funny. Like this is rapport building. She's light-hearted individual. This is someone I can trust. - And I did it on purpose because you're quite serious in your interview, you're quite serious. And I was like, okay we can have a serious interview but like we also could have a little fun. And I'm like, you're my kind of person where your very smart you think very deeply about behavior. We're both obsessed with psychology, right? Like we have three things in common. And so I was assuming coming in that we would be friends. Like I would assume that we would have a very interesting dinner conversation. And so I wanted you to feel my assumption of warmth. And so when I saw those balloons I was like, yeah girl, like that was perfect timing. 'Cause I didn't wanna have the like, this is how it would have been. Hi, I'm Vanessa. Nice to meet you, Jack. Hi, nice to meet you. Thanks for having me. Elevator, okay, let's go over. Oh, like I don't like it. I don't like those kind of stiff introductions and it's very hard to build immediate warmth and immediate trust. So by making like a casual joke, by referencing something else, and I think the intention of like you could be my friend. Like we would probably have a fun lunch together. I am going into it with that mindset. And I think that changes everything. It changes my voice. Like there's a big difference between like, Jack, hey, good to meet you. I'm, that's how I'd agree to friend. Versus like, hi, Jack. So nice to meet you. And I think that's the mistake that people make in their first impressions is they know they matter so much. They like try to be really formal. But that inhibits trust. It takes away trust. So you're better off assuming this person could be your next best business deal. It could be your next best friend. It could be your next best partner. That there's something that you have in common that you either know already, or you just have to figure out. That assumption brings warmth into your voice, your face, your body. And I was assuming that what were you assuming? Assuming of you partimating you? Yeah. I guess more slightly more cold and slightly more business professional. Maybe just someone who's able to turn it on public speaking, but that's just assumptions, you know? But I think that this is really important. You should know what people are assuming about you. I knew you'd be assuming that about me. Everyone assumes that about me. Because of what I do. Right, like first I was with a friend and she was like, we didn't know each other very well. And she we were talking and she goes, you know, you're so much warmer in conversation than I would have imagined. I was like, yeah, because you're watching me on YouTube, it's not a real conversation, right? I'm being interviewed in conversation. I would rather be asking the questions. Right, like I would much rather hear your stories. And so I think I have to fight the assumption of like, I'm reading your body language. I'm reading every cue that you're doing. I'm formal or like in a more of an interview kind of setting. That's actually not me most of the time. And so I have to dial up my warmth and my first impression more than any other anyone else. I think it's the same thing. Like if you're a doctor, you have to work on dialing a fourth. You need to be making more jokes. You need to be smiling bigger. You need to be using head tilts and nods. Because you have to overcome someone's assumption that you're very smart and maybe cold or distant. People have the opposite problem too, is people assume they're super warm and they don't take them seriously. So the other way this happens, and I've seen friends have this, people assume they're bubbly and this tends to be people also in careers that are maybe more warmer. They assume they're bubbly and friendly and likable and they're not taken seriously. They're interrupted more in meetings and in conversations. People don't ask their advice or their opinion. And they have to work on dialing up competence. I actually tell them to smile less, not less, head tilts less. Because people are going interrupt you, especially in sales situations or interviews. If you are showing up with all warmth and people are already assuming that you're warm, you're going to have no credibility. It's going to be very hard to get that reliability piece. I guess how can you tell what people assume about you? You can ask them. I asked you, right? I think that that's the best way is asking someone. If you want the numbers, look, we have a charisma quiz that we have people take, students take. And it tells you you're warmth and competence on a scale. It's based on research at a Princeton University on how we judge someone on warmth and competence. So they take the questions that it places them on the scale based on the warmth and competence. You take a screenshot. Then we tell them, send it to a partner, a colleague, and a friend and have them take it as you and have them screen each other results and line them up and then go to dinner with a nice big bottle of wine because you're probably going to have interesting conversation. You will literally see how a partner sees you, how a colleague sees you, if you can get your boss to do it, how a boss sees you, and see if it lines with how you see yourself. Because very often in that exercise, the way you think you're coming across is not the way you're actually coming across. So it's science-evil.com/chorisma. You can take it as many times as you want. It's up for free because that's a diagnostic way that you can do it. You can ask someone. You also can, if you're. intuitive, if you're intuitive, you could pay attention to the first 10 words someone says to you. Meaning in a very high-competent situation, in a formal or more cold situation, people are probably going to ask you more formal, more competent questions. What, so what do you do? What brings you here? You know, how is that job going? How is that project going? And I'm using a very specific nonverbal with my face. I have a tightening here around my the concentration part of my face. I might lower lid flux at you. So I'm flexing my lower lids. As I have to say, I want to see you. That's very high-competent. Versus a high warm person. You might be getting warm from someone. If they're like, "Tell me about the fam. How is that soccer game? How are you doing? I want to hear everything. If they use words like friend, bud, fab, yay, whoop, wow." Those are all very warm words. It's likely that you're coming across as warm versus competent words are words like goal, win, achieve, big work-related terms. Those words are probably matching how you're coming across. So I know I come across as competent or cold because typically people use those words with me until I can like convince them like, "I'm a human too. I have like kids and fun stuff that I do." I'll just say this is the first time this has ever happened to me. There's been a few interviews where I kind of have like nervous anxiety, like tense, like I'm like shaking a bit and you started speaking and I felt that and then about 30 seconds in you speaking it stopped. And I was like, she's a master at like getting someone to like calm down and come down level. Yeah, I could feel your attention and I really want you to feel like this is like a very calm conversation. It's super safe. And so I'm like using a very calm voice tone. I'm using very warm soft body language so that you can feel like we're in this together. Like we're in this together. We have the same goals. Like even like this setup, I love your, you know, I watched your videos and a lot of your setups are very, you know, you're across the table and you're and that that setup is great. Like we're aligned, but it can be also like very confrontational. And so like if I were not on camera, I would probably move my chair there to be honest, to be a little closer, to be on the same side of the table. But I also want you to calm down because I could sense that you were nervous that I'm not nervous. So we're in this together. Like we're good. It's not live, you know, we're good. If you wanted someone to have a painful life, struggle with relationships, never find success. What posture, body language, and cues would you make sure they did? Like a punishment, like a punishment setup. The first thing would be all the disengagement cues. That's what I would not, I would not wish upon someone, but if they did this, they would have a very difficult life communicating. They would have a very difficult life connecting and being happy, which is first people who really lean back in their chairs, who angle their face and body away, who answer. And you'll even see people sometimes they'll answer questions in disengagement body language. So they'll be like, I don't know, I guess I would say this. And they're literally leaning their face back, their head back, their body back. It is very hard for you to see me as we, someone you want to connect to when I'm answering that way. I know, I felt like you hated me in that moment. Exactly. It's sort of a soft cue of social rejection. Also, something to mention here about creating this loop of a bad connection is if you make a bad person impression, you're doing these disengagement cues, it is actually a punishment to the other person. Yes, it is a punishment for you because you are being seen as not trustworthy, not competent. But the research is really interesting on this when they bring people into their lab, and they have them sit around a big table, and they have someone at the table flash them a cue of social rejection. So a cue of social rejection could be a or like an eye roll or like, or like those are all cues of social rejection. They feel terrible, right? Not only do they feel bad, they found that when the participants saw that cue, their pupils dilated, their pupils and their field of vision increased, meaning they could then see more of their environments. They could see, is anyone else making this cue? What's my escape route? And I better go into survival mode. So if I were to be like, I mean, I don't know, cues of first impressions, like, right, like if I were not to you, make me look really bad, like me look like, gosh, she doesn't even care about this. But also it would trigger your anxiety. Interesting. Like you would start to feel, does she not like me? She hate me. Like your pupils would dilate. You'd go into more of a survival mode. You would have a harder time asking me good questions. Your cognitive thinking would get slowed down because all your resources would be going towards like, can I trust her or not? So I think that these negative cues are really bad for you, but they're also bad for others. Okay, so just engagement cues, so leaning back, talking back, even like, this is a very small one, but maybe your audience will like it. I would rather talk to you like this or like this. I like lateral head movement. I like full on head movement. And if I'm not in, yes, this is also okay. So vertical movement, lateral movement. What I don't like is this. If I were to tilt my head back to you, it's like a cue of disdain. It's like I'm looking down my nose at you, right? So I don't like that that head tilt back. And I also don't like when people are delivering out. It's very disengaging. So when, especially if you're on video or if you're in interview, you want to make sure you're delivering this way or this way or this way. The second thing that I would say I would not would create a bad life, a vocal denial. So vocal denial, it's a term I came up with for my second book. As I was like, there's this thing that people do that makes me so anxious because I'm a recovering awkward person. Like, I really struggle with this person doesn't like me. I'm bad. Like, something's wrong with me. And then I get really in my head. I'm like, what is this thing that people do to me that like puts me right into like that awkwardness? So vocal denial is like this. I mean, not really. Seriously, no way. I mean, I guess it's like those small words or tonality that you have just said something very stupid, very dumb. You are not interesting. And I don't want to listen to you. And people don't even realize they are doing it. That's what I learned to have. I hope people my life who I'm specifically thinking of. And they do this to me. And it gets me my head. Like, I'm like, why are they doing that? Like what? And I'm like, I go into like immediate self soothing mode. And then I try harder. Like my, I, everyone has responses to negative cues. You can either lean in or lead back. I typically am like, please like me, right? Like I lean in. And so it's vocal denial. So how you listen to people should sound good. Like as you are listening, you should be making sounds that are vocal affirmations. Vocal affirmations sound like this. Oh, hmm. Uh-huh. Wow. No way. Really? Really? That's a vocal affirmation. So now that's very high warmth. So I know some people are like, I would rather you be completely silent than give it vocal denial. Right? So if there's a spectrum, vocal denial is going to make shut people down. They're going to make you look negative and condescending and cold and intimidating. And the good ones are going to make you open up. They're going to be like, wow, like he's really listening to me. I can say more. I can be myself or silent. I will take silent to positive anywhere in there. Another one is your resting, your RBF, your resting bothered face. Let's call it. Everyone has a resting face and very lucky people, not me, look neutral at rest. What's your resting face? Because you're what is your resting face? Not so. Okay, you have a very good resting face, which is just neutral, positive because your lips angle up. Yeah. So at rest, I can see slight lines here, which actually looks like a partial smile. You're not activating them, right? You're like these part of your face. You're not activating it. Oh, perfect. Oh, you're so lucky. So if you look at your face, you have activation here, which makes you look more up, it makes you look like you're ready to smile. Even if you're not, look at my face at rest. Right. Ballard. Down. It looks more like two things, a mouth shrug. So a mouth shrug looks like this. And that's a sign of doubt. We're dismissing someone. So if I at rest look like I'm doubting you and dismissing you, of course, you would think I'm cold and hard to talk to. Or it looks like sadness, right? When we're sad, we pull our lips down and we pinch our inner eyebrows together and we, right? So at rest, my mouth looks sad and doubting. Terrible. Also, my eyes at rest, now I have makeup on and I purposely wing my makeup out. And that is because it makes me look more awake. I tend to have very heavy lids. So when I'm listening at rest and I have no makeup on, I'm like, I'm very litted and that looks, you look tired. So of course, then people's impression of me listening would be that I'm uninterested. I'm doubting them and it's making me bothered. So if I were to tell someone, have a really difficult life, it would be to have a very sad or angry bother resting face. So an angry resting face is when someone has a lot of activation here or they have permanent lines here and they're always listening like this. Now if I were to listen to you always like this, you would be paranoid, right? I also have a friend and this is a really weird one. He, I don't know why he does this. I should just tell him, I'm just afraid to tell him, I think he's not going to be able to control it. He listens in disgust. So disgust is an expression where we crinkle our nose up. We flash the upper whites of our teeth. He will listen to me like this. And I have to remind myself, he is not disgusted with me. It's just how he listens. But it does affect me. And I know what affects his relationships. And he has so many communication issues. And I know it's because of that. But I'm afraid to tell him because you can't even Botox that. Like, you know, there's people who have resting face here and they can Botox isn't it rested? Okay. But like, he can't do that to his nose. He's not yet. And so I'm like afraid to tell him. So I would pay attention to your resting face because that sets you up for how people listen to you. Can we smell fear on other people? Yes, we can smell fear. So one of my favorite experiments is they took people under their lab and they sold them up into two different groups. So he's a good setup. And the first group, they had them put on sweat suits. So suits that collect your sweat and run on the treadmill. So they really sweaty ring in those sweat shoes. Second group put on sweatsuits and had them skydive for the first time. Then they took the sweat samples and they had unsuspecting participants in an FMRI machine smell the sweatsuits. People who smell the skydiving sweat felt fear. They actually like the fear part of their brain activated. In other words, they could somehow from that sweat smell that this person was afraid versus the treadmill sweat. Nothing happened. It didn't activate anything in the brain. Meaning that when someone is afraid, they are producing a pheromone or they're leaking a hormone. It could be norepinephrine. It could be adrenaline. It could be cortisol that makes a smell that way. I don't exactly know. But we're producing something that's like a signal to the world. Have you smelled fear sweat because I have have a smell of a sweat? Fear sweat. Fear sweat. Like, have you ever been with someone who is very, very anxious and you could literally smell it? I would say so. Has it have an interview? Not an interview. I don't feel like I'm not perceptive with it. People get nervous. A lot of people watching. I have smelled a pure sweat when people meet me. Again, this is how I know that I come across as intimidating before I even open my mouth. I can literally smell their adrenaline. And that's really important because it has kind of like a metallic smell is how I would describe it. It's like a slight like zingy metallic smell is how it smells to me. One, I want to put the middies if I can, but two, I don't want to catch it. I don't want to catch it because I know that in that experiment, they smell this when they caught it. It's contagious. It's very contagious. And so, yeah, we smell it. And this makes sense, I think, from like if someone's afraid of something you're like, why should we afraid to? So I think that's a very, you have to be very careful how contagious those negative emotions are. I know your obsessive hands. I love a hand gesture. What can you tell about a person just by looking at their hands? By looking at their hands, I don't know. Do you find yourself looking at others hands? I don't look directly at your hands, but I want to make sure they're visible. Like, I don't like when they're under the table or behind your back because it feels like you're hiding something even though I know you're probably not. You're probably just at rest. So, well, some people would say that you're con. There's four different ways we send signals. Okay. Verbal, the words we use, nonverbal, our gestures, our facial expressions, our posture, how you move through the world, our vocal, how we say our words, our volume, our pace, our cadence, and our ornaments. Ornaments are how I keep my nails, the kind of jewelry that I'm wearing, the color that you're wearing, your rings that you're wearing. So, your hand gestures are two different areas. One, how they move. Are they visible? Are you looking at my palm? Am I demonstrating concepts for you? Am I listening in a steeple? Nonverbal, but they're also ornaments. Like, what does that ring mean? This one? Yeah. I'm not sure I liked it because it was white. Okay. I liked it. Okay. So, that told me a lot about you. That told me that you didn't necessarily have emotional meaning towards that you just liked it, which means you follow your impulses. You don't need to have like, oh, this is my signal from my father. You just liked it. It's cool. You go through your likes. This is Mandarin. What is it? It's just astrology signs. It's astrology signs. Okay. It moves. Is it like a fidget? Yeah. That's it. So, you can put it on different signs. And you just like it. Yeah. Okay. So, I learn that you like ornamentation. That makes you happy. And if this is my wedding ring, that's all you would know about me. And okay, maybe I take care of myself because I've done my nails. Right. So, like, there's lots of things you can learn from hands, but I like the gestures, like how am I underlining my words with my hands. So, like, for example, if I say like, this means a lot to me and I put my hands over my heart, you're more likely to believe the gesture because it's like underlining or emphasizing it. Same if I'm going to say, I have three different ideas I want to talk to you about today. And I hold up the number three. You're more likely to believe the three but you're also more likely to remember the three. What we don't like is when there's incongruence. So, if someone says I have three different ideas and I hold up the number five, you're like, but Vanessa, it's five. And your brain is like, oh, and that's a reliability queue. That's like, I can't rely on this person. So, liars typically use less gesture. So, researcher, Dr. Susan Goldmeadow has researched a lot on gesture and liars use less gesture because they practice their words, right? They've spent all their energy on the verbal content. And so oftentimes their hands are either hidden because they're trying to like keep it together and they're like, what's that, what's that lie? I practiced or they don't know what to do with them. So, they're like, because they're like, they know that they're not congruent. And so, I think subconsciously, we love a gesture because we're like, ah, they're probably telling the truth. Like, they're able to speak with their hands. We did a little very soft experiment at times of people where I had people do different activities within without hand gestures. So, like, for example, one of them, we had people sit on their hands and tell a story. It's so hard. It is so hard to tell a true story without gesture. It literally makes you less fluent. And so, if I have my hands up, they're like, I immediately I'm like, what was I saying? It's like a very weird thing. So, it also makes you a better speaker. So, I think that when we see someone with hand gestures, we're like, ah, they're fluent. They are confident. They have ways to express themselves. And we like it. Like, it puts our brain more at ease. Is it hard to lie while using hand gestures? I don't know. It must be. I've never done it. That's interesting. Okay. So, like, ah, I'm gonna tell you two stories. One is going to be real. One's going to be fake. So, ah, yesterday I was my daughter and we're making cupcakes. And she is like, mom, I want pink cupcakes. And I'm like, okay, but it's for a boy's birthday party. And she's like, I don't care. I want pink cupcakes. And so, she goes, she grabs the pink dye and she puts it in all the different little cupcake tins. And it comes out and we give it to the boy. And he's like, but I love blue. Okay. That's story number one. Okay. Story number two. Okay. So, this weekend, I was with my daughter. And she was like, mom, I want to go swimming. And I was like, no, it's freezing cold. It's February. We're not going swimming. And she's like, but we can wear our wetsuits. And I was like, I still don't know what's going to work. I still think it's cold. So while I was inside in the kitchen, she went up. She got her wetsuit on and I looked outside and she was in the pool. Which story is real? That's hard. I would say the first one was real, but I would say the first one was real. They're both lies. They're both lies. I was practicing seeing if I could gesture believably and I could do it. But I just want to see if I could do it, like with two lies. And I was able to do it. I will say this is my first intuition was that the first one. I was like, okay, she's definitely lying. And then you said the second one, I was like, well, given the rules of our game, I thought one was a lie. I tricked you. You didn't trick me, but because you were right, your instinct was right. But it was a lie. And my second one was even worse lie. So you were right. I was able to do it. That was what was interesting about it is I was able to pretend that I had drops. I was able to pretend to get the wetsuit. I was actually able, I've never done that before, but I was able to do it. So which means people can lie with gesture, but I was thinking about my gestures. Like I was purposely adding gesture to try to be more convincing and it worked, which is crazy. I just think of all the great liars. Like you always, like people use wardage. Like they have the gift of gab or like you think of like KGB officers, like people in intelligence and like they're like super still, like no hand gestures. I think that was actually a thing. It was like KGB officers had to start using hand gestures because they could like pull a gun or something like that because like Americans were used to hand gestures. It was if something like that was some strategic thing to distract people, but I like it. So the answer is yes, you can lie with gesture, but more importantly, the takeaway is allowing yourself to gesture actually makes you more charismatic on the outside, but also on the inside. It's like a beautiful feedback loop where like you are more fluent when you use a gesture and people see you as more fluent. So I want to bring back the gesture. So there's a reason I talk about hand gestures a lot, you know, is I'm like, we have gotten so formal and so stiff and zoom is this. So we're like, oh, no one can see my hand just anyway. I might as well just leave him limp. But actually, it would be really beneficial to push your camera back, to have the tops of your hand gestures showing and to add them for yourself and for them. So I'm trying to bring the gesture hand gesture back, trying to bring it back and not enough people are using hand gestures. Not enough people are using hand gestures. I agree. I also think the sexy is part of the body. It's the bone. It's the bone. People are going to be like really even I said, no, I really like a poem because it's a gesture of openness. Right? like the best interactions are like, hey, good to see you. And then we palm to palm handshake, we high five. And so when we can see someone's palm, it's like we can trust them, they're open to us. Like when I'm like, tell me everything, like you can see I really wanna catch it. It's the pre-jester for a hug. Like a hug is two open palms. And so I think like showing your palms more, especially in the first two seconds, I talked about good signals. Morning. Hey everyone, good to see you. The best first impression, jester. On smiling. Yeah. Do you like smiling? Yeah, I do. It's an interesting question. I just don't see you smile a lot, so I just want to ask if you like it or not. If I like it or not, I guess I don't have a problem with it. I haven't really thought about that. Do I like smiling? I don't know. I was just wondering, 'cause people don't like it. Yeah. Like they're like it feels weird. They don't like their smile, maybe. Yeah, and they don't like the act of smiling. It's like trying too hard. Oh. And so I was just wondering if that was you. Smile and photos. I know this. You know this. Yeah, I haven't seen any photos of you smiling. Huh. Yeah, I think it was because, I don't know, someone said it was like a masculine dating to smile and photos. And I just like stuck with me at the time, but I haven't really reconsidered it. Now that does seem a little stupid. Yeah, we should reconsider that for you. Also, if your brand is quite like competent, I would be, that's not a bad thing. Like it's good to have a competent brand, but I would be wondering if you did a smiling photo if it would, if it would change clicks, or views, or engagement, I wonder, 'cause all your thumbnails are super serious. Like I wonder if we do one where we're like, if you don't get more clicks, you know what I mean? 'Cause people would be like, what? Jack is smiling. Crazy. Yes, let's talk about smiling. I didn't mean to hijack it. I hate to stare too negative with it. I do want to ask what you can tell in general about a smile, but can you predict someone's divorce? By the way, they smile. Hmm. So amazing research by Dr. John Gottman. He's a Marriage and Family Counselor up in Seattle. He wants to know what is a predictor, is there a predictor of divorce? And so he did a massive experiment with many, many couples and he tested them on as many things as you could think of. So he filmed them, he interviewed them, he looked at their history, he had them stay in like a hotel environment and like filmed them, looking for patterns. And then he followed them for 30 years. Incredible amount of research. He found there was some couples that stayed together and there were some couples that had gotten divorced. The couples that had gotten divorced, there was one single predictor of who would get divorced and it was that in the video interview, one member of the couple showed contempt towards the other. Contempt is a one-sided mouth phrase. Sometimes known as a smile, this is not a smile. A contempt smirk is not a smile. It is most often mistaken for boredom, apathy or half-smiling. It could not be further from the truth. When someone shows contempt, that one-sided mouth is on another side. They are thinking they're scornful, they're full of disdain. There's a little bit of hotness to that expression, like I'm better than this, I'm better than you. And that I think was the killer of marriages. If you have someone in a relationship who is contemptuous of the other, they are scornful of that person, but they also feel like they don't know what they're talking about. I know what I'm talking about. And it's one of the few emotions that doesn't disappear. So anger in a marriage can come in a burst, and you kind of calm down, you regulate happiness, comes at once, and you kind of regulate fear, you're afraid of oranges, and then you calm yourself down. Contempt does not go away. Contempt, it sits in it festers, and it eats away at the respect the couple has for each other. And that's why at the end of a very bad marriage, you have two people who can't even talk to each other anymore. It's because their disrespect for each other is so strong. So contempt, number one, is not a smile. Contempt is a sign of negativity, and it's a warning sign, it's a red flag. Two, when you see it, immediately address it. That's when you're like, are we good? What's going on? Hey, let's talk about that more. Let's brainstorm this issue. Where do you feel about it? How are you on it? Tell me everything. That's a moment, it's an opportunity. Like when I see contempt and you see it at work, you see it with couples, you see it with friends, I see it with my kids' faces. You have an opportunity to become an ally against whatever they're contemptuous of. So you might have someone, like your partner, they're contemptuous of a budget, right? The financial issue is one of the biggest causes of fights and marriages, okay. They're upset about the budget. You want to make sure that their contempt of your finances is not a contempt of you. So when you talk it out and you're like, listen, like I get it, this sucks, it's really hard right now. Let's talk about a plan, we're in this together. We're gonna figure this out. I know we got in it together, we're gonna get out of it together. That kind of conversation is saying, you can be contemptuous, I can't fix the contempt. But I can be your ally and we can hate this thing together until we fix it. That's a good marriage. Same thing with friendships, same thing in a job. If you're talking to someone across the table and you see your employee make a contempt face or a team member or a boss, you wanna immediately figure out how can I become the ally against this thing? We're in it together and that becomes a much more solution oriented conversation, a much more productive conversation instead of, oh, we don't like this thing. And so I think that contempt is an opportunity and it should not be mistaken for happiness. - Are you positive that when people have contempt often in a personal relationships, it's because they have an enemy and they kind of posit that enemy to be their spouse or their friend, but in reality it's like some external thing but they just associate them with it and that you guys need to team up and you need to identify that thing to tackle it. - Slightly different. I see contempt as like a very bad cloud. So your inner conversation and something makes this person contemptuous. It's the budget, could be you, could be something you said, could be themselves. People often show contempt because they hate themselves. So there's a cloud of contempt. If it's not untangled, if that cloud isn't sort of cleared away, you become a part of the contempt, right? So I think like with financial issues in a couple, you hate talking about finances and contempt is showing and you're really stressed about it and all of a sudden that contempt about the budget, it's like a cloud on you and you're now tied to that finances. If you can verbally untangle that, you can be like, no, we hate this together. Like we are in this together. So it's a cloud clearing verbal activity from the contempt because you don't know what it is. It could be themselves. And if it's you, you sure as heck wanna know it. It's usually not though. You know, it's usually not like, when people are like, they can't ever use a meat. No, usually it's themselves or something they heard or an idea you shared, it's not you. - It's usually placed on them though because people are like, why don't you, why aren't you asking me how I am? Like why don't you understand this thing? Why don't you understand why I'm struggling? Like why don't you see me? - That's something like clarifying it is really important and empowering and also bringing you closer. Uh oh, what's the question you're about to ask me? You just showed contempt at me. You just showed contempt. What is this question? - Uh, it was, can you predict someone's a narcissist by their body language or Machiavellian or sociopathic? - Look, I'm not a specialist in psychopaths or sociopaths or narcissists. But I think that you can predict a troubling personality before we even get to the labels. And I also am not a big fan of high-conflict people, but I think we should also need to bring one more category there which is high-conflict people. So we talk a lot about narcissists and psychopaths, sociopaths. But actually there's another category that I think is far more prevalent and far more dangerous and it's a high-conflict person. - I love that. - A high-conflict person who they're the ones to watch out for and they love drama. You know what they really love? Getting other people to act out their drama for them. So oftentimes they might not even be the cause of the drama but they're good at getting enablers to go do their dirty work. So they'll have an idea to create a lot of conflict in a family and they'll say to their sibling, "You should tell dad this or in a friend group." You know, they'll say to their friend, "Can you believe that she said that about you? You should confront her about it." They're often actually one step away from the conflict which is why they're so hard to spot. So I'm more worried about high-conflict people and I think a lot of them are Kenby Narciss. Some of them can be sociopaths, psychopaths. So I like to talk about them first. I have no warning signs for them is they get delight out of other people's suffering. They light up when they talk about the bad things. Like in conversation and all my students know this. So I have a big course called People's School. People who join people's school are growth-minded and typically optimists, typically not always. And so we do a lot of like your job in conversation is to ignite excitement. Ask what's good. Ask what exciting plans are coming up. Ask her, "You're working on anything fun or exciting these days." There's a certain group of people that if you use all those optimist techniques, all those techniques we teach, they don't like it. They don't want to talk about what's good. Exciting. They like get annoyed by my questions. - 100%. - Yeah. - And I'm like, "Ah." So actually, a lot of my conversation tools that I teach, they're tricks in the sense of, yeah, they're gonna create really fun, engaging conversation, they make you more memorable, they trigger, don't mean, hopefully, they trigger oxytocin and serotonin, right? Like they trigger all these chemicals. But they're also red flag getters. Like if someone is like, "There's nothing good." Or exciting, I guess. I don't even know. Like they can't even engage with you. This is a major red flag. - Or they say something and then change the topic immediately. - Totally. And they love to complain. They love to blame others. They show up to your dinners or your lunches with the same problem over and over again. And even when you give them tools to change it, they're like, oh no, that wouldn't work. That wouldn't work. I've tried that. They typically know everything. And they ask for advice, but they don't take it. This is a red flag. This is there is something about the way that their social brain works that is hunting for negativity. Negativity bias has kept us safe, right? We need negativity bias. I think as a recovering awkward person, my negativity bias was too strong. I was always like, everyone hates me. Everyone's mad at me. And I had to disengage that because I was like, not everyone hates you. Like you're seeing something that's not there. People who are high conflict people, they love their negativity bias. They're always looking for reasons when people are angry at them and they want to hate them for it. They're happy to be martyred. And I think that conversationally the way that you can suss them out is very simple, optimistic questions. Working on anything exciting these days? What's been good? Hey, had any big goals this year? Hey, was your summer vacation great? Catch me up in the life highlights. Those questions make a high conflict person super uncomfortable because they don't want to go there. And so that's the major behavior red flag that I see in conversation. I like that you teach that because it kind of gives people a razor for cutting out those who shouldn't be in their life. Well, let's talk about that. It's really scary to cut someone out of your life, especially if you're a helper. And this is really hard because the kindest, most beautiful people in the world are helpers. And helpers, their entire self-narrative is about service. I think that there are three different types of people. This is very generalizing, but basically, people with a hero self-narrative, so they had challenges and mistakes, and they overcome, and they are very high achievers. Victims had challenges and mistakes and problems couldn't overcome. See themselves is very unlucky, are always trapped. And healers. Healers or helpers are all their entire life is dedicated to helping others. They are typically in careers of service. They are doctors, nurses, teachers, masseurs, physical therapists, their coaches, they're in that line of work, and they are taken advantage of. High-conflict people seek those people out. And so what happens is they get into a conversation like that where they're like, what's good? And they go, oh, nothing's good. Everything's been bad. I'm stuck, I'm struggling with it. And the helper goes, let me fix it. Let me fix it. Can I help you? Can I support you? I can fix this person. And so, yes, heroes will be like, ooh, razor. Cutting this person out, this is not my person. Put my poor healers. They pick these people over and over again. They get into the same horrible friendships. They get into the same romantic relationships. They pick the same terrible bosses. Because a part of them is like, I could fix them. I could fix them. I could help them. I could change them. I could heal them. And so they hear those kind of conversation as like, opportunity. And I'm like, look, I love that you want to help and heal people. But you have to make sure they have the capacity to heal. Like, do they actually? Are they in a bad moment? Or are they having a really bad time of it? And they do need the support and help? Oh, what a gift. But has it always been a bad moment? I know, have to be careful. I know what are these people? And she literally always complains about everything. As long as I know her, I know her for a long time, over two decades. And she's in a new job. And I asked her, she was complaining about the job. And I said, hey, have you ever had a job you liked? She looked at me like I had slapped her in the face. Because I have been with her through 10 plus jobs. And every single job is the worst job ever. And so I asked her, have you ever had a job you liked? First of all, she was very offended by the question. And second of all, she literally couldn't answer me. And then she started to lie. Then she was like, I mean, a job I liked. Is that even, I mean, you know, I loved my job. And she mentioned a job and I was like, no, you didn't. I was like, I was there for that job. You did not like it, remember? You hated your boss, you hated your colleagues, you thought it was stupid, you hated the brand, you hated the time, you hated the commute. And she was like, and she really struggled because I was calling her out on her live because I see this pattern for her. And she always complains about everything. So you have to make sure that if you want to help or heal someone, do they have the capacity to help and heal? Ask them about past difficulties. Ask them about past bad things. And did they overcome? Were they able to have a good moment? Make sure before you help them. Because otherwise you will not be able to help them. They'll take you down with them. I think that is super valuable advice. Help people take it. My healers are so beautiful. They join my course and they're burnt out because they're like, I've been in so many bad relationships. How do I spot them? Because they mean so well. And they're typically people, pleasers. But they so want to help people. They also want to be liked. And they have a really hard time saying no. And they over commit. And they're stuck being so burnt out and so disheartened. And oftentimes they've given so much of themselves, their finances, their safety, their security, their mental health, that there's not much left. And so I'm like, please, please, yes. Well, we can help. It's literally this. It's saying no to the people who cannot heal. You cannot heal them. How can people pleasers feel useful to those who are kind of on that hero's journey, like the people who don't need any help? Well, I think that there's always hope. There's always hope. Even with the highest of conflict person, I think there's always hope that they could change. So one way that you could help is say, OK, I'm not sure about this person. This person might be a high-conflict person. They might not be able to heal. But I think I could try. Give yourself a kind of time limit or a box limit about how you can help. So, for example, I guess, sorry to stop you. But more so, like, you said the three groups of people, like the people who think that they're the hero, that you said they don't like help, right? Is that what you said? Oh, OK, so heroes, they think of themselves as they can achieve anything, they can overcome anything. They're happy to help. In fact, sometimes they turn into healers, but their whole mission, their self-story, is not about helping. Their self-storing is more about it cheapened. But OK, so the middle group takes advantage of the healers typically. And then the heroes, it seems like they would be best with healer, but they can't feel useful. Like the healer can't feel useful to the hero, do you know what I mean? Oh, no, oh my goodness. A helper can support a hero, reach anything. Those are some of the most beautiful relationships. You see a lot of power couples. A lot of the time it is a healer, I think, and a hero. Because the helper is like, wow, this person can do big things. I'm going to support them emotionally. I'm going to support them and tell them they're doing great. I'm going to be their rock. So oftentimes they are paired with heroes, and heroes are like superstars because of them. I guess I would just classify myself as a probably a healer that turn into a hero maybe. But I guess when I meet people that like, it's like they don't want any help. But they're doing well, you know what I mean? So it's like hard to feel useful to those people, but as opposed to the other hand, it's like the people who are like, yeah, this sucks, this sucks, this sucks. I'm like, OK, I got you, I got you, I got you, but-- I mean, I would posit that you don't always have to be useful to people, right? Like, that shows me you probably are a healer over, is that you feel you're only worthy of a relationship if you're being useful. And I'm here to say that is not the way, right? You can just be in a relationship with someone because you like them, and they like you. You can have a relationship with someone where no one's getting anything out of it. You're just enjoying each other's company. And so I think that that's also healers. They tie their identity to how helpful am I? Like, that's what people who's those are doing, right? They're like, I am not useful or helpful if I'm not taking care of someone. A lot of the times, it's the eldest sibling, I'm noticed, that the eldest sibling is so used to caretaking, and they were so instrumental to their parents because they're the eldest sibling, that that becomes a lifelong pattern where they're like, I am not lovable if I am not taking care of. And so they get into relationships where they're doing everything. They pick friendships where they're always the one taking care of the other because that literally makes them feel lovable. And they have a really hard time if they're not useful because they're like, well, then I won't be loved. What should you do if someone tries to intimidate you in a conversation? Oh, those people are disgusting. What would they do? Like, what would they do? I'm trying to think just like some move like, like they just say something about you that you probably, like reveal some piece of information about you that they shouldn't know, or like they look into you, or like, I don't know, say you were a man, and that's your girlfriend, I was like, just like looked at her and then like looked at you, like something like that. Okay, okay, well, that's terrible. So, see you're up and rising as I really, like someone says something that's like personal to you. I think nagging is a way that people can do this. I'm very happy that nagging is sort of, is a thing of the past. I hope it is. It was very big in like the speed, seduction community and I refuse to be nagged. I do not like it when it happens to me. So, I've had that happen to me before, where someone will say, what's a nag that I get? Oh, you're so much prettier than your picture. What? Or someone told me, you're not as mean as you look. So much, that's a nag. I usually laugh first because that like lets me like relax, like laughing is a defense mechanism, but also brings oxygen into your body. So like, I don't want to go into fight or flight because of their comment. So usually I'll laugh and then I ignore them. I'm like. I will do it where I'm like, you're not my person. So I'll either walk away or I will say something very, very cold and dismissive so that I can get out of the conversation. So I don't allow it. I don't allow it. So I think if someone's in a conversation with you, why is it, you shouldn't have a conversation with them? They're not your person. - Your speaker, but as well you're a business woman. When you're in a big negotiation or something and someone is trying to assert power, like how do you reclaim that? - I think that staying in your power is really important so not letting it rattle you. So what does power come from? Power comes from first nonverbal. I do think that's first. Is what is the amount of space that I'm taking up in the room? So am I maximizing the distance between my ears and my shoulder, right? Like I'm not gonna shrink down and shrink in and I don't know why you said that, right? That's what people typically do. Is when they're challenged in a negotiation, is and they shrink. All of a sudden you see no distance from their ear and their shoulder. The one is staying, claiming your power, maximizes distance. It's a cue of winning body language. Second, keeping space between your torso and your arm. I think people do is they'll type to their sides and I like, they'll start blocking. So I would widen my sit. So I would have space between my arms and my torso. We'll keep my shoulder down and back. So physically keep my space claimed to show like I'm still claiming my space. Vocal is the next way we have power. So when people get nervous, they tend to go a little higher in their voice tone. What are you talking about? I don't do that. What? No way. When I do that, I have given up all my power, staying in my maximum resonance points, which is the lowest end of your natural tone. So both men and women have a range and when we are nervous, we go in the highest end of our range. So this is still natural for me, but if I were to give this entire interview in this tone of voice, you would think, that's really annoying, right? So I'm working to keep in my lowest end of my range and stick to topics I'm comfortable in. When I'm nervous, you'll hear me, you'll hear it. So staying nice and low, like not going up in here. Second is not holding my breath. And you're saying men do the opposite of that? Or the same? No, yeah, men don't do things. They go higher, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why my voice will crack. That's why like voice cracking is funny. It's because it's like, you sound low confident. That does what happens is your voice cracks. Not holding my breath. So when someone attacks you or physically strength you will, and then we're like talking on the top of our breath and that creates all this kind of tightness in our voice. So if I were to keep speaking at the top of my breath, I would sound very tight in my voice. We don't like that. So we tend to suck in our breath. I would make sure that I'm breathing and I'm speaking on the out breath. So as I'm speaking, I'm sharing that with lots of volume. I have nice, relaxed vocal cords because what else could happen is vocal fry. So if I hold my breath, I don't have enough oxygen. I go into like vocal fries so it sounds like this. People say I have this. Oh, they do? Yeah, and I don't know if I do it. It feels like I do a bit. Okay. Yeah, do I sound like I have vocal fry when I ask questions? I haven't heard it, but I don't think you've been that nervous. It's every time that's fair. It's every time I do podcasts with people who are in behavior or psychology. Like all the comments are like, what's with this vocal fry? And they never say, unless it's that one, because they're familiar with that word. Let's do negative practice. So there's embodied language. There's negative practice and positive practice. Positive practice is doing the good thing and negative practice is doing the bad thing. So let's do negative practice. So give me some vocal fry. So go what happens to your voice when you do the vocal fry? What's the most charismatic way to leave a conversation? Great. So if you feel yourself doing that, stop and speak on the out breath. So it's really important to do negative practice so you can feel yourself do it, right? So I know what happens like in my voice and my jaw and my tongue when I'm starting to go into this. So then I can reset and go back into my maximum resins point. So later I would have you, like if we weren't on camera, I would have you do a little bit more vocal fry practice. You can really feel what that's like, what it feels like when it's like, this is not the way. Then you can go into positive practice, which is, okay, what's the lowest end of your range? That's not too low. I think you usually use it, like asking what my name is. Use the lowest of my range. Oh, what's your name? Yeah. So you already do that, which is great. A lot of women typical struggle with this a little bit more than then is they will take in a deep breath. And then they're speaking up here. So the meeting today, we're gonna go over a couple of different points for everyone. And we're gonna wait for everyone to log in. That gets me excited. Yeah, totally. So I like, I have women or men who struggle with this practice with speaking in the higher end of their range. They can know what it feels like. There's a specific feeling in your voice so that moment you hear yourself do it on a date or in person, you're like, I'm doing it. And then you're back into resonance. So I would just do that for yourself later so that when you hear yourself doing interview, then you speak on the out breath. How much for body language is in our DNA? Ooh, I'm gonna say a lot. And the reason I'm gonna say this is because of a beautiful set of studies that looked at facial structure and perceived personality. Meaning, introverts have a certain face. When they look at introverts and extroverts, they literally have certain facial features. If you know what they look like, you could probably predict who's going to be an introvert just based on their face. They have the same thing for perceived competence and incompetence. They have the same thing for perceived or agreeableness and eroticism. They get less predictive as we go into the harder traits. So it's harder to hard-priced them. But that shows me if introverts have a certain facial structure, it's probably because they were exposed to certain hormones in the womb. And that's probably based on some DNA that told their face to develop a certain way. And then therefore that affects their behavior. So I would say that a lot of it has to do with our innate what we were exposed to in the womb and our coding, our wiring. Because extroverts even speak a certain way, like extroverts use way more movement. They use more gestures. They have more expressiveness in their head. They have more expressiveness in their face. They have more vocal dynamism. Sometimes they're up here. They can't believe how exciting it is. And then they're like, but then there's something really parallel. They're very like their range of movement is so big across voice and nonverbal. Whereas introverts tend to have less gestures, less movement, less expressiveness. They can be very charismatic. They just express it a different way. And so I would say a lot, but that doesn't mean you can't learn it, right? That doesn't mean that you can't optimize. Let's say that you're introverted and you know that you need to be seen as warmer. Like people have told you you're cold, you're intimidating, you're hard to talk to. And remember the research is very clear on this. You could have very high competence, but if you don't have enough warmth, it will lead people feeling suspicious, very clear. So you can be very smart. And there's all my students, they're super smart, and they don't understand why people don't believe them. It's because they've forgotten the warmth. So if you know that about yourself, you just have to work a little harder on dialing up those warmth cues, especially in the first impression. It's a feeling. When you look at the graphic of an extrovert, you're like, boy, do I want to talk to them? And introvert, you're like, they probably don't like me. That's literally how I feel when I look at the graphic. Yeah. I think you just brought up the concept of signal amplification bias. It's one of my things. Why do intelligent people or competent people appear less trustworthy? And why do attractive women get approach less? Well, these are the same. Same bucket, same bucket. Very attractive people and very smart people face the same problems, right? Which is signal amplification bias. As humans, we think that our thoughts and our feelings and our intentions are obvious. So we think if we are into someone, like we have a crush on someone, they know it. They for sure know it. How could they not know it? In fact, we looked over there two or three times. They must have seen it. They, I am so obvious. I am too obvious. That's the thinking of all humans. This is especially difficult for smart people and attractive people because it's even more uncomfortable for them to be obvious with their signals. So what happens is they miss opportunity. A smart person thinks their ideas are great. And they often are. And they're very smart. And they think everyone knows it. 'Cause they know what it's like in their brain. And they assume everyone else knows what it's like as well. So when they show up focused all on the idea, the biggest thing is they go into a presentation and they prepare amazing slides. Amazing data. They have great ideas. They have the perfect opener. And everyone's like limp with it. They're like this guy. I just can't don't like him. He's a, and they get more pushback. They get more hesitations and sales. And that's because they are focusing so much on the idea they are under signaling and warmth. Attractive people tend to think I'm attractive and I'm being obvious about it. So I'm gonna let people approach me. But actually what Dr. Monica Moore found is that less attractive people are approached more if they signal more. And it took a lot. Like more than 10 glances. And we tend to think two or three is a lot. But two or three is not enough. It's 10 glances, 17 glances. Like that's how many it took to get someone to come over. And so I share this with my daters. I'm like, you think you're being obvious, but you're not, don't miss the opportunity. And, and please take out your AirPods. Please take out your AirPods. It's almost impossible to be attractive with AirPods in. - We should go for this frame of what's like, how do you guarantee that you never get approached? - Okay. Never get approached. Look at your phone all the time. Always have it in your hand. Never put it down. Put AirPods in both ears. Do not make eye contact with anyone. Angle your body away from people and keep your feet closed. Don't have your feet ever in croissant position. Always have them in closed position. If you're going to glance at people, glance at them furtively like this. Ugly. No one's going to approach you. Oh, and close your body. Like, I know, I know crossing our arms. It's comfortable. I know it's because it's safe. It's protective. We love to be safe and protective. But if I were to sit in my entire interview like this, you would literally see me as more defensive. It also, interestingly, they found that if you cross your arms, you are less creative. You come up with less creative ideas when you're forced to sit in this position. So even by yourself or even in a meeting, you will have better ideas if you sit in open body language and you look more open and creative. So it has both. So you shouldn't even just be neutral. You should be like, ah, look, look. There's a fine line between socially aggressive and charismatic. Like, is this winning posing? Yes. If I were to be doing this in this interview, people would be like, what is wrong with her? Right? So I always think of the amount of space you take up should be proportionate to your context. When I am on stage, I am gesturing a little bit more out here because I have the context. It's okay for me to be that way. In this conversation, I'm not going outside the strike zone. So look, baseball, I'm keeping my gestures all in the strike zone because we're in a box. Right? And so the bigger the room, the bigger the gesture, the smaller the room, the smaller the gesture, same thing on zoom. Right? Like, if I go like this on zoom, you're like, why are her hands out of the screen? Right? Like, you can gesture much smaller. So it should shrink based on your context. Safety is always the, I love a baseball analogy. So it's the strike zone. That's my favorite zone for any kind of gesturing. What's something that you think to be true, but don't have the research to support it. That's a fun question because we are going to start researching again. So we took a little pause on researching for a while. Research experiments are, they're very time-intensive, money-intensive. So we're actually going back to research. So what is the burning? I don't have the resources for it. Oh my gosh, there's so many. I would like to know if you could predict someone's personality traits based on how they move through the world. So I would like to do a research saying, I don't know how you would do it, where you have people take the big five personality traits, right? And then you film them, interpersonally, and then you code them interpersonally. And you see, do agreeable people move a certain way? Do neurotic people listen a certain way? I would like to know if there's a way to predict behavior based on body language. Because if I know someone's big five, if I know how they're rated, I can almost, I won't overestate it. I know a lot about how they're going to behave and I can probably predict some of their choices. So if I could observe that from like, just watching a video, that would be powerful. Is there anything that you're like, this one thing keeps happening over and over again in my life and people keep telling me about it. But whenever I Google AI, look at the research documents, like there's nothing there, but it feels like there's something there. I mean, a big one that I get asked a lot that I don't think there's enough research on is eye contact and gaze patterns. There's a big fight in the internet right now about eye contact. I don't know if you've seen it, but we're careful about talking about eye contact because eye contact is very difficult for certain people. Eye contact is distracting for certain people and other people need eye contact. So I've not been able to find the research answer this question, which is like how much eye contact do we need? Can we manufacture it? If someone doesn't want to make eye contact, can they be likable? The research right now says no, but I don't think that's true. I think that's true. I think that you can still be likable if you're not making 100% or 60% eye contact. But there's no answer right now. And I think people are really distracted by it because it's such a huge part of our interaction. And so the amount can't be manufactured authentically. If you don't like eye contact because it's distracting for you, what could you do to make up for it? Could you make up for it? That's a hard one. I will say I do deal with that that I'm likely unable to speak and gather my thoughts in a cohesive manner while making eye contact with someone. I always go to the side. I'm sure you noticed that. By the way, I know you're processing. I know, okay, when you're listening or making eye contact with me, but when you are thinking of your next question, you have to look away. And by the way, that's a great thing to know about humans is when we are making eye contact, we're producing oxytocin. Oxytocin, very complicated, but for us, it's the chemical of connection. So it's telling us we're safe, we belong, we can answer. When I am not making eye contact, because I'm thinking about something I'm trying to remember something I'm trying to formulate a question. My brain is like, no oxytocin, I need to focus. It's like a cognitive load. It's called gaze aversion affecting cognitive load. It's literally a study defect. And so I wish we had a little bit more grace for that in our culture. I think in Western cultures, we like demand eye contact. We're like, never look away. These stupid studies that I don't even think this is ever replicated, where people are like, if he looks up to the left, he's lying or whatever that one was. And I'm like, no, that's not true. People process, they remember looking up to the right, looking up to the left. And so I think that that's a very complicated issue. And I would love for people to study how gaze aversion can still be charismatic, because a lot of my students are high-functioning on the spectrum. And they really struggle with eye contact. And I'm like, I know this is hard because our culture demands so much eye contact, but I want you to be able to process. So I would love to be able to solve that problem and haven't solved it. That's fascinating. Yeah, I had a previous guest who talked about this exact issue. And he said that the one pattern he noted from like someone that had studied this with 3,000 people, but like it wasn't like a official study was there's internal dialogue and external dialogue. And that's about all he could. They found that. That's what he noticed after like 3,000 people. And he said that that's about the only reliable thing he's found with eye contact. I think it's when you look to the left, it's, oh, shoot, he's going to tell me external dialogue. And then to the right is internal dialogue. So like think about what's, what was the first text or what was the first thing someone said to you this morning? I go up to the left. I just just now went up to the left to try to remember what was said to me. Okay, think about our conversation that we had when you were over there. Yeah, maybe that way. Maybe with my right. Right. Okay. Interesting. So it's like spatial as well because we're in here. I don't think that is reliable because also like in our lie detection research, I was like, everyone talks about this looking up to the left means we're like, so I was like trying to validate it. And we didn't have like a massive study by any means, but I was paying attention to it for many years. Like I would literally watch people lie. We have a little experience. We have people submit videos of themselves playing two truths in a lie. And we would code the videos. We also had them do share your most embarrassing moment. Now tell me a fake embarrassing moment. And those are great because they're still nerve wracking. So it's like a nervous baseline. We coded those videos. And it was not reliable because people have different access points for how they process. Even like right and left handed could switch it. And so there was no pattern except when someone is deeply thinking they have to look away. But if you ask most people how do you know if someone's lying, they say shifty gaze. Doesn't work, right? Like that means actually probably someone was just thinking really deeply. In fact, liars who are very rehearsed, they know they're lies so well, they'll make eye contact with you and you're like, well, they're telling the truth because they're not recalling anything. They're memorizing something. And so liars will often not always make more eye contact because they want to see do you believe me? So they're looking at your face to see, are you believing this? Are you are you swallowing this? And they're not recalling anything so they can make eye contact. So the very complicated issue and I feel like we've oversimplified it and I would love to untangle that one day. I don't know if you've been asked this. I'm sure you have not I think about it. I just, this is my bias as a guy to assume that no guy has asked you this. Do you as a body language communication expert? Sure. Do you ever read people's energy like spiritual intelligence? Do you count energy or spiritual intelligence as intention like I mean you harm or I mean you well? Do you count that? Because I do read that. I would say that for it. Yeah, because there are people I have been with. I don't know exactly what it is that's leaking. I'll be like, I don't see anything obvious, but I feel that their intention is negative. I feel that their intention is to find fault. Is to harm. Is to doubt that there's almost nothing I could say or do that would make them positive. And then there are people who I feel lots of flexibility and leeway with where like I know their intention is solidly good. And I feel like I have a lot of freedom. Even if we were to disagree, they would their intention is goodness. I think intention to goodness or intention to evil is something that I think about a lot. I guess after everything you've learned what do you trust most like people's words, their cues or your intuition. I can't always trust my intuition. And that's because I have a very strong negativity bias. And this is really good thing to know about yourself and just be very honest with yourself. But I know I'm prone to a quite a strong negativity bias. I'm also a high neurotic. And so neurotics we produce serotonin more slowly, meaning we worry about things because it actually affects us more negatively. Also, there are some studies that show that we can misinterpret neutral faces as negative. And I know this about myself. And so I don't always trust my intention, because that's why I read cues. Because I know that my intuition is likely more negative than actually what it is. So the reason I got into reading my current questions, the reason I got into reading cues and even like looking at word patterns, verbal patterns is because I can trust that more than my intuition. But some people have great intuition out people and I love those people. And I don't know how they have they smell it or they feel it. It's a vibration thing. I don't know color aura. I don't know. But like they are so good at it. And that is not me. So I would say that I, I probably trust words and word patterns the most. I love body language. I love micro expressions. But sometimes you can see an odd red flag that doesn't mean anything. Sometimes someone has a tick that will throw me off. So I like verbal patterns, word patterns, and psychology the most. What they're asking me, how they're interpreting what I'm saying, the kinds of words they're using. I feel that I can rely on that more. Do you feel that way? Do you have a good intuition about people? Wait, wait, my guess is no. Only because of what you do. Like people who are usually like me, like all my students were obsessed with psychology because someone heard us. Like we're obsessed with psychology behavior because we got wronged. And we often don't have a natural intuition. So we're like, give me the tools. But that's just my guess. I would say I'm not great at it. I would say I usually find myself in hindsight being like, yeah, my first impression was right. And I was misguided after that first approach. Totally. Because people show you who they are when they meet you. Yes. And then they adapt to who you want them to be. Totally. Like the people who have duped me, I did have an intuition at first. And then I ignored it. And it's like, oh, well, they're probably like this because of this. Right. Oh, they were in a bad mood. They had a bad day. Yes, I do the same. And so that's why I don't know we just trust it. Well, like I get like in my head about it. So then I'm looking at behavior patterns or like their verbal responses to things. I think people show you who they are. And they often will tell you exactly who they are. Like here's a really weird one. And it's hasn't been studied. I would love this to be studied actually. I have this weird theory that people who insist they are a certain way are actually the opposite. So like people who are like, I'm so kind. Like I'm taking advantage of all I'm like too nice. I'm so nice. I'm taking advantage of like kindness is my thing. They are secretly so freaking mean. It's like people who call others a narcissist. Oh, totally, totally. So I think like the words that people use about themselves, about others, it's very telling to what they're like thinking their priorities are. And oftentimes what they're calling out in others might be themselves. And what they are saying about themselves is a wish. They're actually quite mean. And they wish they were kind. And so they're saying it because they're hoping it's going to be true. And they are not kind. Like the meanest people I know often insist they are very, very kind and haven't assisted to me that they're very kind. And I'm like, or like people who are like, this happens in dating sometimes where a friend will be like, could you meet my date? I want you to see if you like them. Or not. Because they're worried if there were that they're being tricked or they're like, you know, this is a good partner for me. Is oftentimes the people who are like, oh, I'm so spontaneous. And like casual. I'm like, I'm go with the flow. I'm like, they are the biggest secret control freak. Get ready. And every single time, especially women, but not always who say that they're super casual and super spontaneous and go with the flow. They ain't. I'm like, no, they're not. They wish they were. And that's okay. But they're not actually not always. That's interesting. Like just what people say in general and the words they choose is really just a reflection of their insecurities and like what they're trying to make up for. Yes. And what they're and what they're wrestling with. Like it's so top of mind for them that they're bringing it up all the time. And like you can learn a lot about what someone's like ruminations are based on the kinds of words. And you're they're using the questions are asking what they're calling other people, what they're calling themselves. Like I always am very listening very carefully for labels that people use. Like what label are you using for your friend, your parents, your kids, your dog. Like I once had like a theory. I don't know if it's still true because I don't own a dog, but I think sometimes the way people speak to their dogs is the way they speak to themselves. So like someone who's like, hey, cutie, hey, sweetie. I love you so much. They're actually quite kind of themselves. People who are like, oh my gosh, really? You had to bring that in here. Come on. They're like a little harsh on themselves. I have not studied it, but I think like they're verbalizing like an internal rumination, but it's safe on a dog or a cat. That's fascinating. I'm not a dog owner. So I haven't really been able to test it. But it's like a light theory that I have that I love listening to people talk to their pets. I love it. I love listening to people talk to their pets. I love looking at people's trunks. I think that says a lot about that. I love the trunk of their core. Yeah. I love to see people zoom backgrounds. I think what people choose to portray on a zoom call is like very telling. There's a book called Snoop. If you've read it, I cited it a lot in my book Captivate, which he's a researcher who literally snooped through people's houses and their things looking for patterns. He found that there are very specific patterns in people's trunks and purses and houses. Like, for example, high neurotics. Guess what we love? We love it. You can always know how you're walking in a high neurotic's office or house if they have this. I don't even know like I can be too far. I do have one of those. I have four of them. Actually, I do have four newly married spots. Nope. That's not it. But that's a good guess. What do we need a high neurotic? No. It's like some sort of call. Yeah. That's into oil. It's like, um, hmm. Close. Inspirational quotes. Oh my. Neurotic's love posters of on their social media quotes on their wall posted nose in the computer. They love a motivational quote because they have a lot of internal. I'm seeking myself. We have a lot of like internal like, am I okay? And you define neuroticism as just like someone who like is trying to control. Oh no. No, I won't even define neuroticism. I will take the research definition of neuroticism, which is your approach to worry. Okay. So high neurotics are actually they don't have to be control freaks. I'm not a control freak at all. I'm so spontaneous. So typically high neurotics are control things, but not always. So neurotic neuroticism is how you approach worry, meaning a high neurotic worries because they are so scared of the bad thing happening. They won't be able to handle it. And so they worry. They're less emotionally stable. They're more moody. And that's because any outside influence could chain their internal state. A low neurotic, they're like a no-worry attitude. They're like, why worry is such a waste of mental energy? It'll be fine. It'll be good. No worries. Don't worry about it. They love stuff like that because they're very emotionally stable. They are sometimes unemotional. They can lean towards that. And so neurotics because they're worried or is they they love a motivational quote. We put them up all over our walls because we're like, am I okay? I'm going to be okay. It says I'm going to be okay right here. And so we post them all over our social media. We post them all over our house. We knit them. We stitch them. They do lots of affirmations. That kind of thing. Love an affirmation. A mantra. An affirmation. They have affirmations tattooed on them. I always am like, and I love tattoos too. I don't have any tattoos, but you're basically walking around with symbols to tell someone about you. And so if I see someone with an affirmation or a mantra on their arm, I'm like, oh, hi neurotic. How can you subtly manipulate someone to agree with you? So never do this. Never do this. I want you to see if someone's doing it to you. It means they're trying to manipulate you, which is if I move my hand like this, it actually subtly cues you to nod, right? So you actually begin to nod with me. And that's because it's like a we pace where we follow someone's hand gesture. So if someone is trying to manipulate you, they might be explaining an idea in this way because they're trying to get you to nod a lot. And once you nod along, you're like, why I really agree with this person. This sounds really good. Don't do that. Don't do that. And I'll let someone do it to you. Is there anything else that you don't teach because it's too so many things manipulative? Yeah, I'll give you an example. I once was consulting for a law firm. I don't even consult anymore because people have such ill intentions. I don't even do it. I walked into a law firm and they said, we would like you to consult with us on all the things we could do in our boardroom to make the other side feel powerless. And they were like, so here's what we think based on your research and your books. We're taking the opposite of what you suggest. So we're going to lower the height of their chairs. We're going to take away the armrests on their chairs so they have to sit small. We're going to make it so that the light is behind our heads. They can't read our facial expressions or our body language. We're going to offer them warm water because that's like not as refreshing. And I was like, I got to go. I was like, I have got to go. So I think there are a lot of dirty tricks like that where I don't teach manipulation. I think it's a really fine line between optimizing behavior. I'm manipulating someone and it's all about intention. Their intention was bad. Their intention was to make people feel bad and to negotiate. worse and to doubt themselves. If your intention is, I want to understand someone more deeply, I want to be able to read their personalities so I can serve them or talk to them or understand them better. Those are good intentions. And so I think intention matters with every single Q. That's great. I was like, we can't teach someone how to move a little bit. It was useful. I would never use it, but I was like, I can see where that would work. And that crazy. You'll see speakers do it. Last question. I wish I had a more creative one for you. I would just say like, it's really awesome what you've done. And I think you're making a lot of people recovering awkward persons and two less awkward people. And I think that this conversation and conversations that you've been having are so important in the age of people being addicted to chat GPT, social media. If you could give everyone one thing to improve their communication, improve their ability to read people, find more success in life. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received? Introorts are not going to like my answer. Talk to people more. We are losing the art of conversation. Being able to converse well is a muscle. It is a muscle. It requires so much social strategizing. You have to be a good listener. You have to be able to quickly adapt. You have to be able to vulnerably share or authentically share. You have to understand the mechanics of body language, of nodding and tilting. And when do I reach out? When do we high five? We have to be able to understand facial expressions. We have to be able to have feedback. If we don't do it enough, you lose it. The principle of if you don't use it, you'll lose it is exactly right in conversation. So here's what's happening is our communication is becoming very one directional. Someone comes on social media and they talk at us, but we're not talking backwards eating popcorn. We're watching. And then we're in a classroom and people are teaching at us. We're in a boardroom. People are teaching at us. We're on a screen. We're emailing to people what they're not communicating back with us in real time. If we keep talking more and speaking better and having better questions and better conversation, we don't let that muscle atrophy. We also get a gift of incredible chemicals. Conversation is the only way to get that sweet hit of dopamine. I love talking to this person. Boxytocin, I feel so connected to this person. Serotonin, I feel like I belong and I can be who I am. We don't get that through email, we don't get that through social media. The only way is really beautiful authentic conversation. And if we stop doing that, we will lose the ability to connect with people. And so have more conversations. Have more conversations with the people who matter to you. Have more conversations with people who don't matter to you. Just as practice. The more we can in person speak, the people we care about, the better we are, the better they are, and the more we protect ourselves. And this isn't an occupation against what's coming, which is we don't talk to anyone. And so we have to keep talking. And I will keep sending out free public education to give people the tools to have the confidence to talk because the problem is we're afraid. If you're an introvert or recovering awkward person, conversations are scary. They take courage. So if I can keep posting tools, questions, tips, and you're like, okay, okay, Vanessa gave me this icebreaker this week. Okay, I'm going to ask it. You are exercising a social muscle. We have to think about conversations like we go to the gym. We go to the gym regularly to keep up our biceps, to keep up our glutes, to have our heart health. We're having regular good conversations, asking good questions are like reps. You're strengthening it and we have to keep socially fit. That was awesome. I any Gen Z icebreakers for people struggling with conversations. Okay, my Gen Z. I love my Gen Z. I've been told I have cringe millennial humor. I do. I totally do. And they have told me that my conversation starters are too optimistic, too positive, and I'm trying too hard. This is true. And you know what? Let's try harder. Let's try harder. Let's not be too cool to be like, what's good? What's your highlight? And so my tip is like sometimes trying harder makes you better. Even if it's a little uncomfortable or a little bit cringe, you'll find your people. Because the wrong person will be like, you great, not your person. And the right person is going to be like, oh my gosh, thank you for asking. It's refreshing for me at least because I speak to my friends or Gen Z, but like I speak to people who are a little older than Gen Z on the podcast. And when I meet a Gen Z person that speaks professionally, I'm like, oh wow, you're like a real professional. Yeah, yeah. Everyone, this has been your guest, Vanessa Van Edwards. This is the Jaguar podcast. I appreciate you coming on. Thank you so much for having me.