Young love vs POCSO Act: The hidden realities behind the low conviction rates

This is Infocus. The Hindus, current affairs, podcast. Welcome to the Infocus Podcast. Today we are going to discuss a recurring theme in the media. One that surfaces every year whenever the National Crime Records Bureau releases its annual data. News outlets often cease upon this single figure. The conviction rate for different categories of crime. If the conviction rate is low, headlines typically proclaim that justice has not been delivered. In fact, this has become a familiar pattern. Even for the data focused themes like the one in the Hindu, where a low conviction rate is routinely interpreted as a sign that the justice system is failing. For many crime categories, conviction rates are indeed a usual barometer for the effectiveness of justice delivery. But there are important exceptions. Specific categories where relaying solely on conviction rates can lead to misleading or even erroneous conclusions. One notable example is crimes under the Poxo Act, the Protection of Children from Sexual Offensive Act. It's not uncommon to see data showing that conviction rates in Poxo rate cases remain relatively low across several states. The immediate reaction both from the media and the public is to suspect that something is seriously wrong. But is this conclusion always warranted? Is there more to these numbers than what meets the eye? To help us unpack these questions, we have joined by Vidya from Tulir, a non-governmental and nonprofit organization that serves as a center for our prevention and healing of child sexual abuse in India. Vidya, I will start off with this first question, which is that, in general, it is about us, in general, who covered these things in full. When we journalists look at Poxo data or any crime data, especially Poxo data, one of the first things that comes to our mind is look at the very low conviction rates. I mean, so few people are getting convicted in Poxo cases. This is injustice. Most of our headlines will be about that. In fact, you also have shared some such stories in the past with me. And we go on to cover the lack of convictions in Poxo cases. But in reality, the story is very different. Is it not? So can you please tell the readers what is behind these low conviction numbers, especially when it comes to Poxo cases? And what is your thinking about it here? So, Agnish, actually, what I would like to start with is the fact that people are actually very alarmed with this increasing rates, under section violence against children under the Poxo Act. I think here we need to really consider two points. One is that there is greater awareness about reporting, which is very good. Two is there is a confidence in the system, which is increasing, which is also very good. It's a different story, whether the system is able to, you know, foolful of that confidence, which is distored of them. But the point is there is confidence in the system and it is there. It is not that the incidents I believe has always been there. And anecdotally from the field, we can tell you the incidents has always been there. People's awareness and confidence is increasingly reporting. That's one. Two is the two aspects, which I really think need to be flagged in terms of incidents itself, increasing. But here in terms of the kinds of sexual violence is young people committing sexual violence. That is certainly increasing. And I'm not talking about the consensual relationships which young people have. And I say young people committing sexual violence. And that is closely tied to the fact that technology is omnipresent now. And that is a huge factor, which influences all our lifestyles, including young people. So the way crying is presented now is very different from earlier times. So these are, say, two definite aspects is to why incidents is increasing. But generally speaking, incidents always been there. It's just not being reported. Right. Right. Now you're that I am glad you talked about this whole conviction. Yes. Because honestly, we are very amused every time the NCRB or the SCRB release their data. So the huge shoe and cry, the media and the kind of almost, and you bloodletting between the media or being for various causes. Why the rates are increasing? Why the convictions are so low? Yes. It's very important, especially with box. So to understand that it's a very complex, it covers various complexities. And it's very nuanced and you have to look at it that way. Now when you talk about if you look at the kind of cases under POXO, till 2016, the age of consent was 60. Right. So you will find that there was not the suddenly from 2000 where you see one spiralling increase. Yes. That is because a lot of these people, the young people between 16 and 18 girls, for instance, who go to the hospitals for deliveries or who would go for an NTP would be booked under the person who impregnated them or the person whom they had a relationship with would be booked under POXO. Right. There is one huge factor. But nobody is taking into account in that huge increase, which is happening. How many of these cases are consensual? Right. I mean, any of us who work in the system will tell you at least 80% of those cases are consensual. So it is a complete, you know, when you look at the conviction rates, obviously it's going to reflect in the conviction rates. I mean, you're going to have people come to court and say, no, I went with this person on my own. And so you can't consider it really abusive and exploited. I was not kidnapped and adopted. I went willingly with this person. So obviously at the end of it all, after putting in all that effort because the law demands that everybody under 18 has to be involved in any kind of sexual activity. It has to be considered, you know, a victim and in case of young people who are also in that situation, can be considered as a child in conflict with law. Then automatically you will have an increase in faces. That's the crux of the problem. Right. So you this like when you say that it's mostly consensual. But the safety over 80% of the car. So in fact, like we're trying to understand this with a like if you can give specific examples without mentioning some names. So that the listeners can understand what you mean by consensual cases and how and who is actually, you know, putting the case on them and what, you know, something specific so that we understand what is going on. So for instance, love though strangely, also believes that or anybody below 18 is a sexual and suddenly at the stress, the stroke of midnight when you turn 18 years and like one second, you suddenly become a sexual being. But suppose that is ridiculous. It is being acknowledged by the health health professionals. It's been included in and to acknowledge by the committee in the right of the child that children are sexual being you are a sexual being from the time you are born. It evolves over a period of time, developmentally appropriate and we have to take that into account. So I'll let you give you some examples and this is especially wanting to ask when both the boy and the girl are below 18. Why is it that it's so skewer that only the girl is considered the victim? Right. Both the boy and the girl are below 18 then both should be either way, what should be victim molecules, but it's only the boy who's always both. It's almost like whoever reaches the police station first. Right. So interestingly, the contrary in that being just last week, there's been a case which is being coming up in a district in Tamil Nadu. Where there was 18 to half to 19 year old girl who was in a relationship with a 17 year old boy and she's pregnant and they got married and the girl has been booked at the Poxo. And fortunately because in Tamil Nadu, we don't believe in a resting and consensual relationships. The 41 A has been issued or see old CRPC, 41 A new BNSS 35 has been issued. But the funny thing is the boys parents have also been booked. Right. So they don't understand why the boy, how can the boys parents be booked when this couple, you know, actually went off and they had a relationship and then we got married and they just happened to stay in the boys house. Right. If at all you can book the boys parents, you can say under section 21 of Poxo for not reporting it, you should be reported. Right. But why book them on a kidnapping? So you know, this is a kind of a strange situation. You know, in this case, it's just the police themselves are booking it on your own or it's just is, is the you. So this when the police are finalizing their report to present a court, right. They always, almost always take the opinion of the PT. Right. Now we have no clue here in this case. Sometimes police directly find the case in court. Sometimes they take the opinion of the prostitution. So we really don't know where the bus stops in this particular instance, but it's, I mean, it just exposes the whole decreases of the whole thing. So that's one. Now we actually got really interested in this area when in 2022 when there was a case of two young people who without meaning this tricks or without naming everything. The girls suspected the boy of being interested in somebody else. She said, the only way you have to prove to me that you love for me is, you know, just for me. She's, she brought a yellow thread and she asked the boy to tight around her neck in a public space. Right. And all their friends, of course, that teenage group, Mulhang, you know, gathered around and threw rose petals in record it and etc. Now that video went viral and it was decided that this boy has committed a boxer offense. Right. In a yellow thread around the girls neck, I don't know where it comes out of the box. So anyway said now you need to understand what was happened after that. There was a complete destruction, not even not just in the children's lives, but in the entire family's lives. Right. The girl was taken and put into a reception home. Why? I don't understand. Her parents didn't even want to file a complaint because I mean, this is just a teenage prayer getting all of us to be put on the box. So as even school and college with the track, you know, and then the boy was put into an observation home. He was, he was subjected to a preliminary potency examination to see whether he was potent. Right. And then he, the preliminary assessment was done to see whether he had the intellectual capacity to do to understand what he had done and what the consequences are. And all this involves a lot of economic hardgills families. And I mean, it might be what goes down the drain because you have to go to court, you go to the hospital with your pride. You look at the emotional toll. There's a whole sabotaging of education. I will call it sabotaging because this girl was in the twig standard. She had to go because she was sequestered in some home. She couldn't continue. But you know, it's a gap in her education. The boy was in a skill of development institute. That had to be stopped. And it just think about what does it do to these young people who want to walk idea of intimacy and affection. It gives young people that if you do something like this, you're going to be in any of being friend of the legs. Yeah. So I think that was, that is one instinct. Then I can tell you another instance when there's a second she was 16 when she met this boy. And then, you know, they got married. She was 17 years of four months when it was discovered that she was going to have baby in a short while. And when she should be going correctly to the primary health center for her checkups and everything, no problem at all. The last month before the delivery, that is the 9th month. The doctor said there that you have to get an FI or FI to have your final scan. Now that whole process took to, you know, took its toll and there's this young woman who is having her baby going around trying to get things sorted out. And the police in fact, are very sensitive to this. They have called us in and they says, you know, she's going to have a baby. She's going to turn 18 next year. She's a really worth looking the case. Right. This boy is looking after her well. They are married in every take. But the law demands that it has to be booked and there's a social welfare department in Tamil Nadu has given strict instructions when these cases when the families are not even willing to book the case. Right. The social welfare officer books the case. So the family does not want to book the case. The persons involved does not want to be just that the government themselves take it upon the insults from our position and then the book the case. Yeah. Right. Spined in fact in last year there was about 800 cases in Poxo. Right. Of these kind of consensual relationships where the social welfare department has. Is a complainant. Right. Right. You know, you have these poor field workers committed a complainant. It's completely ridiculous. In fact, in fact, one other thing which we were discussing the other day also is this that the girl in one of the statement types which you said. I don't remember it's 41 A or something where the girl herself says that this is a consensual relationship which actually comes at the very start of the investigation where the girl is called. And yeah, yeah, what's 61 where she is asked like is this consensual and she clearly says yes, it is so there may be very few cases of coercion here and there. But then in most of the cases, the truth is this not a very I mean valid argument to take right then and there. And then in this case quickly, you're supposed to be a sexual to 18. So the police have like have really have no legal. Even if it is consensual, the loss is that it is said is a crime and so you did therefore and but the purpose when they are both below 18 would you both. Yeah. That's that's one thing. The other thing is that even when you book the case, is it nobody's looking at what happens after you book the case. The easiest thing right now is to book the FI right to find it. If I are what happens subsequently how do the courts view it? What is the medical examination going to show? I mean, are you looking at you do you think by criminalizing teenagers exercise exercising their sexuality by criminalizing it? Do you think it's going to curtail them? It's not. Yes. The scales have to fall from your eyes to understand that teenagers are sexually active. And what they need is guidance and support to be appropriate in their exercising of this exploration of their sexuality, their identity, etc. Not criminalizing it to just go underground and you're going to have more problems when things go underground. Then you know, kids actually being given the opportunity within the informed parameters as to to kind of explore the items to I think you're about the example when you're thinking about young people and their exercising. RKS state which is supposed to be the government of areas flagship program and adolescent health. It has a whole mandate looking at, you know, menstrual, menstrual hygiene looking at section and reproductive health information, etc. That it's completely that is hardly practiced across India. Great. You hardly have and we're talking about sexual repressive health. We have talked to a lot of young people who ended up pregnant at organ and hospital. We were called into a system. All of them almost all of them say they didn't intend to get pregnant. They were in this relationship and as a relationship progress physical intimacy, especially when you know you're young and you're seeing you could take on a work. That became a primary thing and they didn't want to get pregnant. Now think about it. If they had access to it birth control, etc. At least the trajectory of their lives would be very different. Then when you get pregnant and you have a case and you have to have an therapy, there's a lost education. You know, the effects the whole family. We've had families who move lockstalk and barrel because the girl cannot be shown that the girl was pregnant. Look at the whole economic class there. Yeah, that is what I wanted to ask. Like, are they very starch? She says it's consensual and then starts the process where almost this statement is completely ignores. Yeah, and then about one to two years later, you know, and then this guy is acquitted. You touched upon a bit, but then there are two things which I want to ask you. One is this look at the economic cost involved in this what not just for the government, but even for the individuals who have to repeatedly come to courts. Who have also this so the reputation loss. One particular is actually to the Supreme Court was so sensitive about. So this was a case again, I speak only from Tamil Nadu. I experience Tamil Nadu because I live in Tamil Nadu. So this was a young woman who was 17 years, almost 18 years, where and she was starting nursing. And she was the relationship with a local boy and then a parents got rid of the relationship and they said, who are you to decide on who you want to get, have a relationship with and they were promptly looking for an alliance. This girl panicked, she told his boy and this is invariably the case is the girl who initiates any kind of a lockment which happens. She told his boy if we don't go together. But once the case starts, she becomes the victim. In the eyes of the law. Precisely in the eyes of the law. So they said she told us that we don't get, we don't get to have together. And I'm going to cook it so said, so of course this family, they do things. My god, the lady love of my life is going to do this. They run away. Then of course the usual way of the police deal with it is they somehow real them in some way to speed. So then the boy comes back with the girl and he gets booked. The boxer case was never proved at the session score. Right. Because the goal of the girl said, was we were together. We were together and we mean anything. And the other thing is what big mistake which nobody is early addressing. Is that a medical examination is entirely depends on the consent of the girl and the family of the girl. Right. If she's over 12 years old, if she says she doesn't want a medical examination, you don't kind of do a medical exam. Right. But that the medical examination proves anything. Yeah. There are 30% but the time only does it have any kind of evidence. WHO has very clearly stated that. Right. That any kind of sexual assault, even gang sexual assault. There is a certain time period of certain way in which you address it that you get evidence. 33% of cases that be established don't have this anyway. So this the girl with the boy was a picture of popso. However, because she was under 18, he was convicted for kidnapping and abduction. Oh, okay. So then he appeals to the high court asking for a suspension of sedicence because it's in just one example. The high court again invokes the boxer act. Even though there was not in the it was not on the table at all. Right. Because they're already being disposed off. They invoke the boxer act saying, oh, she was a simple village girl. She would not have been able to say what happened. Right. How they again invoke the boxer act and they convict this boy under boxer under boxer. Right. Yeah, which makes no sense. This is the only earning member of that family. Yes. Don't we don't mother. He's helping the family. There is this does she lost her baby by the way. She was pregnant. She lost her baby with the stress of all this. And then look at this. The boys in jail. She goes every week for wherever she is. She goes to visit him. The place involved. She drops out of nursing college. She's the victim visits the supposed the accused who's supposed to have. Yeah, right. And then she and then she drops out of nursing college. So whatever skills she was also developing that goes west. It's really sad. These are poor simple village neighbors. You know, feel laborers. They spend 50,000. Even though they were supposed to be free legally. I will put record is that they spend 50,000 getting this boy during the session. Sit and port. Right. And it's transferred to the high port. They spent another 50,000. So it's a lockdown. Now you think about a lack is a huge amount of money for. Yeah. You know, for the for the. Yes. For labor for farmers. And then finally it went to Supreme Court. Supreme Court within two minutes. This dismissed the entire face. It's like what nonsense. Why are you breaking up families? It's so old. You know, she's she was now 19 and after he was released on that initial. Remark period. They got married to. Despite that the the high court said, oh, you know that she was below 18 when they first had sex. So therefore, and even though she did not say they had sex. Right. The high court says they should would have had she would have been told the bash should talk to the man near mad straight. I'll tell you. So it's so it's so unfortunate that our system is bogged down with going after these cases and the real cases. Yeah. Getting subsumed. Yeah. And the fact that Fox was actually passed to deal with abuse and exploitation. Where is the abuse and exploitation real and what happens to their use and exploitation which is really there. There are right 86% of this 86% tendency of boxer the India. Do you know that I'm right. 86% of which I'm sure if you take away this whole attention amount. At least the real cases will get the kind of attention they deserve. Right. So even in the side of the court is a huge time-based don't they? There is a waste of the police time because in the end of the day, don't end up in a ongoing nowhere. Police time, prosecution time, hospital medical health departments diet, the court time. Look at that. How much of you know that the system the cost to do well. All this process is going on actually these two individuals were very golden night very consensual relationships. Yeah. Even now we have just the family comes to court. So you got it to two no two breaks and it's to come to court and it really gets you know equated and washed. But look at the amount of both for the families concerned as well as the system. Look at the look at the whole positive and intangible. Right. Yeah. I think when we started this podcast, we started as with this conviction rate now. I think you know, understood something that looking at just this conviction rate and then saying that hey, it is low. There are so many acquittals, especially when it comes to poxo. It's actually meaningless. And another thing I have to say is we are really different about using data and simply. And to me, that is a problem and you just come up with policies and programs and ads without actually it being data driven in space. Yeah. And this is a classic example. Right. And I think we really need to go back to drawing board just not look at NCRB statistics, but look at the kind of cases coming to the health department. Look at the kind of cases dropping out of school. Right. What is happening? What is the follow up of child marriage cases when yes. Most of the times you also say mention this sometime before that most of the times or five years later, they would have been married and then having a family and then. All this turmoil that they went to. Yeah. Talking to you about who you know by this you said bring the yellow thread and title and. Right. They are now married. Yeah. He's he's he's we're a very steady job. He's 21. She's finished her nurse and she's married. And I mean, there is it was one of those cases which all ends well despite like Shakespeare said, no, the cause of love to love. They will be dance. Oh, that's right. Yeah, it is, but then at that time when they were going through this turmoil, yes. I mean, the families were really the as the parents of the girl told us we don't even know where our doctor is. They just they can put on some more. We don't know where it is and look at them. Even for them, the cost of bus fare to go from there. Really. Yeah. It's a huge. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's completely unnecessary for them. Totally. Yeah. Which is why I think it's really great. At least in turn, I do now. We don't arrest straight away. Right. The DGP passes circular based on our I could committee resolution. And we had very clearly said that do not be hasty in it at resting in these romantic conceptual relationships. Yes, we have come to the very end of this podcast where I want to ask I'm not I won't term it as a solution. You have told me many times before that there is no one solution for this. But you often you have said that reducing the age of consent from 18 to 16 is one definite way to go. How will this help if you can detail about it first? Let's look at it first of all where reduced. I don't tell you very important thing. Well, that box code bill was introduced into the address about was 16. It was 16 when it was introduced about May 2012 or June or you know whatever. February 2012. Right. By the time it got passed and became enacted, it had gone to 18 right because the government and the legislators by fully aware of what is happening. In fact, it's really interesting to listen to debates in the lockdown in the morning. Right. When the bill was being passed, you have people who are very, you know, in tune with the realities of the constituencies they work with. This is going to unnecessarily be a burden for people. And yes, we do agree that everybody needs to have a chance at being educated and to have you know all that. But this you color criminalize it to expect this change to happen. Are you trying to tell me then that by bringing in boxer and by throwing these boys and into the into jails and you know obviously with the older bunch, all the observation homes is going to change young people. It's not. Yeah, I mean, we were aware. So we need to look at a whole way of looking at these things where we're looking at comprehensive sexuality education. We're looking at better school of facilities, for instance, in schools. If you want to go to Ohio, secondary school, you have to go to usually to the next village. Many families are very worried about sending their girls to the. Yes. So unless you improve your educational accessibility, you are going to have a dropout. When you have a dropout, what are families going to say, oh God, we can't give the girl a loan at home because you get into all sorts of situations. So they will get her married. So you know, we had to look at all look at the health. And me frankly teenage pregnancy is one of the most worrying thing right really. I mean, I look at it as that I would even go on record. I don't have any evidence because everybody wants to obfuscate the data and want to keep it suppressed. But if you really are able to get good data and analyze it, you will know to realize that most of these young people did not want to get pregnant. Right. I would have liked to have continued with their lives and the you know future work opportunities, educational entities, but are now stuck in this situation. And that is really worried. So what is the health department? What is this access to health, birth control that these people have sexually reproductive health that these young people have almost lent it. So it's also about, I mean, you tell me with you, I don't think somebody who is 16, 17 will be aware. I mean of these of this thing called a box or doll and how serious it is. Yeah, yeah, you draw this up when you were doing a program in a school. But we did a school. So we said, do you know that even the is this not the girls who are the victims and boxer boys can also be victims of also. And he the girls can be booked also, you know, when you should have seen that they were so thrilled the boys chaired and whistled and needed and said, you know, people they don't know. Right. It's like child marriage. Most people don't know that you cannot get married below 18, even if your parents arrange the marriage. They think only for the self-arranged marriage, will you be are you breaking the law. If they think if you're marrying your atta payah, your uncle or your cousin, it's perfectly okay. And the family is arranging it. It's not. But they don't know it's the same with boxer. Most people don't know to understand that, you know, it the nuances of boxer the way it's calibrated. So is it correct to say that right now the system is acting after what they think the crime has happened. But they're not acting before I mean in terms of increasing the as an assent then they're not really addressing the fact that Adelson's are sexual being like and to help them exercise that right they have in an appropriate guided supportive way. They're not addressing that they're only dealing with the aftermarket. Yes, it's crazy. Yeah. Yeah, if that money and time be better spent. Yes. Thank you so much for your talk of sharing all these things. Thank you. Thank you for listening.