You Should Quit Being a Creator | @Tafokints NASA, Esports, Content, Tech

Most of the kids want to be influencers. 90% of Twitch streamers stream to like less than like five viewers. 4% of content creators actually make over $100,000. That's a really low success rate for an entire career. You can be struck by lightning and that's more likely to happen than being a successful content creator. Your livelihood's at stake. You might have a partner, you might have a kid. Honestly, working a mid-wage job is probably going to be more sustainable than seeing this journey through. If you want to do it right, it's all consuming. What does it mean to be the world's best? So I find myself in a midst of people who are not trying to grow up really just because it's better for their career that way. Welcome to Office Drama, where we define the modern career for Gen Z and millennials. I'm your host, Chloe Shi, and today in The Office, we have someone who has one of the most unconventional careers ever. It looks like he hit the RNG button on his career resume, LinkedIn. Literally going from Super Smash Melee coach to Tetris influencer to A16 speedrun engineer. And now going into tech, let's welcome Daniel Topokin's lead. Hey, thanks for having me. We are friends. We know each other. How do we know each other? There's actually an interesting backstory because we had a mutual and I was running a house party. And he was like, hey, you should bring Chloe and Kevin over. So I was like, great. You know, great people. Let's meet. And then our mutual. Didn't show up. He didn't show up. And I was kind of worried because I was like, oh, are they going to be isolated as a good guest host? I was just like, OK, do I need to accommodate to them? We stressed him out. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, if you invite somebody at a wedding, for example, you don't want them to be isolated and feel left out. But fortunately, I think we had a lot of mutual friends that ended up working out regardless. Yay. I'm so glad. I am so lucky to know you in L.A. and SoCal. It was like because it was the first year that Kevin and I moved down to L.A. And I think we were all very nervous about the influence. Our culture and how L.A. is fake. And so when he brought us to your place, not going there, which is annoying, but we figured it out. Yeah, we were really, really grateful. And we met really good people. And we never had the problem of feeling ostracized or isolated in L.A. I actually didn't know that backstory because I just assumed you guys knew everybody. And so when you came in, you just fit right away. So I was just like, oh, like I knew of people. Tomo, you're connected. Yeah. You know people. Oh, gee. So I will definitely do a little warm up. For the viewers, for the drama llamas, can you just state your MBTI, astrology sign, where you grew up, your favorite Pokemon, and who you main in Smash? OK, that's a lot. So I grew up in San Jose. I believe I'm a Virgo. I'm a September baby. Favorite Pokemon is Gengar. I main Sheik from Super Smash Brothers Melee. And I have a kid. Do I have to tell my 401k number and all that stuff, too? Yeah, yeah, that's correct. All right. Maybe for the Patreon fans after. Your username is Tafokins. Why? I just ran out of names. So back then I was playing. I was playing an online game called Warcraft 3. And my internet sucked, so it would disconnect. And nobody wants to play with a disconnector. And it would tell people, this guy disconnects a lot. So I had to keep thinking of new screen names. And I just ran out. And so Tafokins is Stinkofat backwards, but slightly misspelled. And when I realized it was misspelled, my internet had fixed itself. And I was already like 25 and 0. So I was like, I might as well just keep the name. Stink. Stink. Stinkofat. I'll give you why Stinkofat. So I don't know if you remember Homestar Runner back in the early internet days. So there was a character named Stinkoman. And my first screen name was Fatboy792 because I was really chubby back in the day. And I just combined the two and then flipped the name, which was kind of trendy back then. And that's how the name formed. You were our first esports gamer guest. And you were a competitive player. And you've been around a lot of the esports community. But you're like one of the nicest, kindest people I know. Do you have a toxic side I don't know about? I think when you play. Team games, like everyone just has a limit. And if you see me in solo queue for League of Legends, like there are days where I'm just not feeling it. And I have to mute. I think in my younger years, I was definitely like pretty toxic. And the moment they blame me when it's not my fault, I'm like just listing everything they do wrong. Like I don't like go super bad, but like I get really passive aggressive. I'm like, oh, like, why aren't you doing this? Why aren't you doing that? And like, I just try to like nickel and dime you until you just blow up too. That's a that's like a slow burn. Don't build up until they break. Yeah. You enjoy breaking people playing mind games. Yeah. And I think generally speaking, most of the games I played were more single player oriented. So like Smash is a single player game and you actually met in person. So you saw the human interaction. Yeah. And I think all the people you see Kevin play Smash in are like usually really nice. I think we just have a different culture. Because you have to do the fist bump thing. And there's like more. Sportsmanship. Sportsmanship. I bet sportsmanship because I watched some Smash documentary and it's like very different from like a league. Yeah. Yeah. And it was actually funny because the first time I went to a tournament, I lost. I lost really bad. OK. And the guy said, hey, this is where we need to shake hands. And so I shook his hand and he told me like, this is what I need to do. And so I was like, I like picked it up pretty quickly. Yeah. You were a Pokemon collector before it was cool. Yeah. What is your most expensive Pokemon card? There's a couple. So I should probably send you a picture of it. I have every single Gengar in English in PSA 9 or PSA 10. And I think the total collection at this point. Is in like the $250,000 range. Did you say $250,000 worth of Pokemon cards? Yeah. Just with the Gengar. Gengar. Just Gengar. Yeah. How many Gengars do you have? I think at this point it's like a hundred something. You haven't insured, right? I still need to figure that out. So collectibles are actually really hard to insure. So they're just a unique asset and you need a special type of insurance. So I'm doing research on it. My sister's also been chastising me as well. What does your wife say about this? Well. Shout out Vicky. Yeah. Shout out to Vicky. I think she's been in for it. I actually got in, like you mentioned, like really, really early. Really early. So I started that collection in 2018. Whoa. And my cost basis was probably like 30K over the years. And it was just like 8X. So she's happy, right? If I paid. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not selling that. We joke around and say it's my two-year-old's college fund. Like it will appreciate it and it will sell down the road to pay for college. So you just came back from the World Series of Poker. Yeah. Are you up or down? Down a bit. I played five events. I got fifth in one of them. It's pretty much like a winner takes all kind of format. So I finished fifth. And that was like $1,600. But first gets $10,000, right? So you really need to finish like really high or else it's like kind of hard to like make a lot of money. I'm not really sure. I can't poker, but I've been trying to follow your IG posts. Yeah, I think it's hard to really explain because it's like, oh, like you teach. There's so many terms that you're just like, what the heck is he talking about? So it's definitely tough. I'm trying to bridge that gap without it being too wordy. The short TLDR is I lost $1,400. And Vicky's okay with that? Yeah, I think so. Similar to the Gengar collection, like I entered a really large influencer tournament in like three years ago and I won $120K. And so like given that that was our starting point, like she's been cool with it. Whereas I think if I was constantly losing, she'd be like no more. So you're net positive. I'm very net positive. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted you all to get to know Tafo a little bit more. So we're going to do our personal shields activity where we talk about his core values, turning points, role models, skills, and where he sees himself. I have to preface, I'm not the best artist. So we'll work through this. No one is. No one is. Except for Jamie. Jamie is great. I think in terms of core values, like there's a handshake here and I think everything is built on trust. So, you know, just for the relationship with Vicky and also just with like co-working, like if I don't trust you, it's going to be really hard to make it work out. That's a big one. There's another one right below where it's just a person working hard in the late hours of the night. You know, I've been definitely lucky, but like I think hard work is just a core value. Just a core value that I feel like you need to succeed in this world. In terms of breakthrough, this is transactions. Turning points. Turning points. One was actually going from NASA, this rocket ship, to eSports. And it was one of the biggest risks I took because, you know, it's a dream job to work at NASA. And my parents were like so happy for me. And to go into a very unstable industry and make this risk. Like actually like really important for my career development, but also like one that I felt a lot of support from my friends. You mentioned B-Tran. B-Tran was the one that brought me over. And my wife said that she was going to break up with me if I didn't take this job. What? So this is how much conviction she had. And she was telling me, you don't seem happy at your current job. And just as a heads up, I enjoyed JPL, NASA. Like my co-workers were great, but I felt like I needed to make that jump. And so that was big for me. And then my other one, which I don't share that often, is like my faith. And so like we won't go deep into it. But I think I had. like a rough childhood. And just like my faith has just been a part of part of my life story. And just the grittiness I've developed have been founded by my personal faith. So those are my two big things. Now, in terms of my superpowers, I would like to say that I bring warmth everywhere I go. You do. You're a big, warm teddy bear. I think it's hard to measure. And I think like my strengths as like a coworker come and working like hybrid or in office where like I'm going to remember the little things and make sure that you feel seen. And I think that was one of the things that my old coworkers will always remember about me. The other one is like I have a really good pattern recognition between different contexts. So yes, if you have like a Venn diagram of three random things, I'm probably going to find some common point to it. And then in terms of my heroes, I think there's a broad theme like I butchered this drawing here, but I've had a lot of really good older male leaders, like whether it was at JPL or just mentors we've had that just. Yeah, I think it's important to really show what it means to have courage to make decisions, even when you don't know all the information and to have compassion and empathy in tough spaces. So like they've been a large part of my life. The other one's a little strange. Irvin Johnson, who's a TNT basketball reporter, also fits the theme of being like he can banter. He's really professional, really good at his job. But he has adopted, you know, disabled kids from Romania, like and he just has such a big heart. And I'm like, I want to be like like him in so many ways. And so those are like my genre of role models. And in terms of the last one. Why is there a question mark with the third? So this is just for context. I have one kid and this is the journey of, you know, where do we see ourselves in five years? So probably a second kid. And I mean, kind of joke and say, like, we're going to have two kids and then oopsie. Well, that's what happened to me and my brothers. And I think that's how it works. You underestimate you plan for one less than what you actually want. And then the third, the last one will happen by happenstance. That's funny. Thank you so much. We're definitely going to get break into that a little bit. So you were basically the dream Asian kid because you went to undergrad at UCLA and masters at Berkeley and studying what? I did chemical engineering as an undergrad in material science. And then you joined NASA JPL. Was that your dream or your parents dream? It was neither. Actually, I think you mentioned about my like, you know, draw this weird line that you define as my career. Yeah. And I actually was really scared. And I think the route to going to chemical engineer was actually really fear based. And I think. Had I known myself a little bit better, I would have probably done computer science from the get go. But I think there was just a huge mental barrier. And I don't know if like, I feel like this is my hero's journey come full circle. And I don't know if you've like made decisions based on fear that you regret. And this is one of my big ones, just because I grew up in Silicon Valley. My parents weren't doing well financially. And a lot of my friends, parents, they ended up losing their jobs due to the dot com bubble. And because of just how much fighting there was about finances at home, I was just like, let me pick the most stable major. Yeah. And that's what I did. And that's why I ended up going that path. Would you consider yourself a rocket scientist? I'm half jokingly. Yeah. I think the funny part. And I don't know if you get this, but like when I go to the bar and when I used to work at JPL, I would get the strangest conspiracy theories out of everybody. I think the most classic one, for example, is like, hey, like, are you hiding aliens? Or like, is there like outside life to. Oh, I heard like NASA's hiding this burrito tunnel to like I heard we're building an escalator to the moon. Did you take your job at NASA and JPL for granted? Oh, how? How did you find this? We went we went deep. This is a Reddit post eight years ago. What's working at NASA like? That sounds sick. NASA was really cool. And I honestly took it for granted how cool it was. Yeah. I mean, I think it was like my first job out of grad school and it was like the first time I worked for a large company. So for context, there were like six thousand people like working there. It's like a college campus in terms of how huge it was. I think they did so many culture team things. Correct. Like in my first meeting, they immediately said, like, hey, what do you think? And this is with engineers. I've been there for 30 years. So I know that was intentional by them to make me feel included. I always felt protected by my group supervisor. We did go through like a lot of trainings and culture. So like, you know, if I were to look back at everywhere I've worked, it was probably the best culturally and from a team's perspective. It's definitely inspiring. I think just by nature that it's NASA, like it's inspiring. Right. A lot of people want to come in to work on what we're going to fly out in a few years. So people came in inherently motivated. They want to do a good job. We don't want to see this billion dollar project be like a government. We don't want to see this governmental like embarrassment. So there's a lot of pride. People want to come in and it felt safe and it was probably one of the best starting points for me in my career. If people knew you before this video, this episode together, it's probably because of your presence in Super Smash Melee. You were the 61st best Super Smash Brothers Melee player in 2013, right? Yes. What was the most amount of bug cracks you saw at an e-sports tournament? I think you just have to go by raw numbers. I think some of the EVO tournaments. We were going from like small grassroots to now like we're seeing our tournaments on Twitch. Like we're starting to get production. But I would definitely say the early days of 2013 and 2014, we had thousands of people at those EVOs. It wasn't just Smash. It was like other fighting game tournaments. You would see a lot of people not pulling their pants up. I think in one stretch in like 2013, I probably saw like 14. Do you say anything or you're like, well? I think a lot of us just had like no shame. I think the sad part is it's like probably like 1 to 2%. But then like everybody else gets typecasted into that. And this also applies to, I think the running meme is like Smashers smell really bad. But like it could realistically just be like five people out of like a group of 300. And they're going to make the whole room stink. I know like a lot of tournament organizers, TOs will give out deodorant. Yes. And then be like, remember shower today, guys. I would like post reminders. And I used to host tournaments and I didn't know how to put it politely. I know in Yu-Gi-Oh, which is another card game. They actually have a clause that if you have poor hygiene, they can actually issue penalties. You can be DQ'd for smelling bad. I think Genesis wasn't too bad when I went the three times that I went. And then thankfully, like the girl line for the restroom is always like there. And Genesis in general, like the nice part is it's in a giant warehouse. So you have space back in the older tournaments. You were a packed like sardines. I feel like I saw you there once crossing the street with Mango. Yeah. And then I was like, wait, that's I think that's Toffo. And I feel like I knew of you. And then I knew Milk Tea. Yeah. Because she worked at Google and then worked at Discord later. You did a lot for the Smash scene. You were the Super Smash Brothers analyst on your own website, Toffo Stats. You also ran a Super Smash Brothers show at Yahoo's Esports. How in the world did you get that gig or convince Yahoo and give you a show about a GameCube game that was like made in 2001? Yeah. I mean, I think a large part was. So while I was working at JPL, like that was like my nine to five or realistically like a six thirty to four job. But nights and weekends. Like I just went to Smash events. And back then the documentary had come out. Yeah. Which I'm sure you. And I knew there was an appetite for people to understand our community. So I wrote 250 articles in a year. Like, oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Just to expose and just share stories of people that I thought were really cool. And then I started going to events that were intermingling with the larger Esports scene. So Riot, Twitch. Yeah. And Travis Gafford, who was running Yahoo Esports, was like, hey. That's right. Travis was there. Yeah. He was like, hey, would you want to cover Smash? And he originally wanted. He wanted me to do written content. And I was like, hey, look, I know you have a YouTube with videos. Like, I promise you, like, there's no high production Smash. There are like numerous channels doing League, Counter-Strike. I was just like, let me get one video and I will show you that we can get the views. And he took a bet. And then? And in that video, like, hey, like 120K views. And he was like, OK, like, we're down to do this. And that's how it all started. Bro. Legendary. Yeah. And it's funny because we talk. And I knew there was strong product market fit. And I was like instantly like, hey, if you let me do this, like, I promise you, this is going to hit. What year was this? This was, I think, 2015. I think the other interesting story is I hated being on camera. Like, and I knew that to spread Melee, that I need to have an online presence. So that's actually what forced me to be in content creation and to become a presence, like a visual presence. And I was so bad at it. Like, if you look at some of my old videos, like, I can't watch. I can't watch it because it's so cringy. I didn't watch your old videos. Yeah. So I actually took improv class at UCB. And I actually took camera hosting classes in LA. How was that? I read that, too. It was amazing. I did it with, like, Suzanne Sennett, who's like a Fox, like, former Fox reporter. Oh. And she just pointed out everything that I was doing wrong. Like what? Like, were my hands, like, what clothing you should have. Like, technically, like, having design is not kosher. Right, right, right. And it was just immediate feedback. We would do, like, a script. I would read it, understand it. And spend a minute talking about it. And then they'd record it. And they'd re-watch it. And we'd just point out things. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. I think when I did improv, it was actually really beautiful. Because, like, I think I'm really drawn to people who follow their dreams. And we had a lot of, like, half the class was people who traveled across the country in their young 20s just trying to make it in LA. Aw. Dude, yeah. Those are people who take risks. Yeah. I love improv musical theater. I think the hard part is I watched Whose Line Is It Anyway growing up. So good. They make it look so easy. I binged that so hard. That was iconic. Yeah. That was some really good media. Okay. So you were also a coach for Mingo, famously, at Cloud9, who was one of the best Melee players of all time. My impression of Mingo is that he is an adult child. How was it like being his father? How was it like being a father before being a father? Oh, it's, like, super interesting. Because I think the big thing for him was he wanted more of a life manager more than a coach when he first got hired. Things that he was doing, right, is, like, just being, lack of better words, like a man-child. So he wanted me to make sure that he was getting his stuff on time so it was more personal management. And, like, the story always tells that he, like, just didn't know what taxes were. Yeah. So I had to get his finances in line. And so I think the tricky part in first working with him is he doesn't like to be told what to do. He doesn't? Yeah. I mean, you know, he's a rebel, right? And so I kind of have to play this, and I don't know if you've ever dealt with this in tech, where I have to incept that this is an idea that he created. Oh, yeah. You guys have a really cute relationship. Like, we say this all affectionately about. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think the hard part is, like, I knew his background and his upbringing, and I think there's, like, the classic, like, the athlete that got too rich and then goes broke, right? And that was, like, my one life goal for him was, like, hey, when you're 50 down the road and, you know, like, maybe we're not friends anymore for whatever reason. We still are. Like, I want you to have a piggy bank, and you can look back and say, like, Taffo helped me survive life. Yeah. And he's doing well. He has a wealth manager. He has a tax accountant. And I've set up so many things for him so that he can have that, like, I wouldn't call it generational wealth. but things that he could live to retirement with. I know everything about Mango. Like, I know his social security. I know his bank accounts. I know all his passwords. You've had to round up influencers. Sometimes they're just impossible. And there are certain things for, like, getting his taxes together. Like, it's like, I have to get you to log in to a certain time. I have to have you two-factor. I need documents from this. And it's so hard to get a person to sit down and do that, that it was just faster for me for many of these services just to get the login so that I can just get the documents done in time. Yo, you, like, took care of him. Yeah. You really did. And you did all this while working full-time at JPL? Yes. I think the nice part about JPL was they had really nice work-life balance. And you were dating Vicky. Yes. How? Vicky, for a large part of it, was actually in NorCal. So, like, she was busy being a student. And I think she was in grad school. There were certain moments where she got angry. There was a summer in 2016 where I went to six tournaments in eight weeks. And the only time we hung out was on the weekends. And so she was not happy with that. Understandably. It's not her fault. Yeah. I would tear you apart, too. Yeah. So, then, in 2018 and 2021, you became a League of Legends general manager at CLG. Yeah. Your first full-time esports gig. So, that was a jump. And so, I did do a few jobs before I promoted. So, I was working at CLG as a BD and a data analyst before promoting to general manager. Got it. When you made that jump, what did your parents say? I didn't tell them. I didn't tell them I left NASA. It was my sister that told them. Because I couldn't reconcile and figure out, like, what is the. My dad used to brag all the time that I was a Berkeley graduate, that I'm working at NASA, that I didn't know how to tell them. And they historically have never supported me playing video games. So, I just didn't know, like, how I could explain it to them. So, your sister broke the news? She narked. And by then, I think enough time had passed that by the time I got brought up, like, during Thanksgiving or something, like, I saw that they were just like, okay, like, he seems happy. Okay, that's good. That it ended up being okay. Were you mad at your sister? No. I mean, inevitably, it's going to come out, right? Yeah. A cathartic thing out of it was I showed a video of, like, to my parents of, like, these giant stadiums. And, like, this is how much the industry has grown. Yeah. That they just kind of accepted that this is a thing. Whereas, like, when we were growing up in, like, 2000s, right, it's like the two phrases I would get are, like, hey, like, your eyes are going to go bad if you keep playing video games or, like, this is going to make you stupid. Those are the only two things that were told for me. Actually, from my mom. And so now they saw that it was, like, legit. Yeah, that's good. That's good. Okay. And then you, is this when you became, like, a top Tetris 99 player and streamer? That also happened in the same time. I think most people, honestly, if they were to do a straw poll, like, 100 people that randomly meet me that haven't known me, they would say Tetris. Yeah. You were big. You were, like, pulling a lot of views when you were playing Tetris, right, on Twitch? Yeah, like, at one point, I was getting, like, 2,000 viewers. Nice. And some of my YouTube videos hit, like, a million. You were the Tetris guy. Yeah, and it was just such a fun time. Like, I think it was just so exhilarating. So many people were into it. Everybody knows Tetris, right? And my claim to how I disrupted the existing Tetris market was I was the only one that was talking while playing. Oh, because people would just, like, silently do it? Because other versions of Tetris are sweat games where, like, you're just mashing as many pieces as you can. So it's really hard to talk. But Tetris 99 is a little bit slower that I can just re-chat and just talk and just. Explain, like, what's going on. How long would it take for me to learn how to T-spin? 20 minutes. Okay, what is T-spinning? So T-spinning is, like, a modern mechanic where, like, you have a T-piece and you slide it in and rotate it in a certain, like, cave. And it gives you a bonus. Oh, I think I've seen it. Yeah. Oh, that's cool. So I actually created a cool guide for it. And that's actually one of the other reasons why it got big was because most people would say, like, memorize these 50 diagrams. I was like, this is not how people learn. So I just explained this is the concept you're looking for. And after I explained it in PowerPoint slides, I actually went through a game and I explained step by step. And I did it, like, 15 times. And I think another big streamer, I don't know if you know Northern Lion. No. Like, he started looking at my tutorials and was like, hey, this guy is, like, it's the best teacher ever. Bro. Yeah. I feel like you were a historian during the esports days and creating guides on how to take, like, players to the next level. Yeah. I think one of the big things is I just love sharing stories. And as I learn something, I love to teach what I'm learning. You love teaching. Yeah. You're so coached. You're so coach-coded. Yeah. Aww. And because I think I want to bring other people, like, elevate other people with me. And I think that's why, like, I stopped competing. There were some tournaments where, like, I finished top, like, 24 for Smash out of, like, thousands of players. And there was a certain point where, like, my personal journey stopped in that where it was just not thrilling. It was more like, hey, like, how do I elevate people around me? But then in 2022, you then joined Heroic Story as an economics designer. Why the switch and what even is that? By the tail end of esports. Like, I was so exhausted. I think that's the other coin flip of working in esports is I worked, like, 72 days straight at one point. And I was just dealing with so much mental stress that I didn't think it was sustainable for me. So I actually went into consulting after. And a lot of my friends went into the Web3 space. One of my good friends from both poker and esports was like, hey, like, you can figure this out. You're smart. And so that's how I made the pivot. So I worked with Heroic Story, which is, like, a YC-backed company. But I also consulted other companies on, like, economics and community. You said you were doing tokenomics. Yeah. What is that? So it was, like, a more popular term, like, five to six years ago. And it was more like when a lot of companies were releasing tokens. Like, how do you make sure this, like, ecosystem develops healthily? Like, it doesn't crash. So there's a lot of, like, community design, product design that all incorporates. So, like, imagine you're starting, like, a new country and you need to develop a currency that isn't, like, hyperinflation or doesn't crash. So it's, like, there's a lot of, like, little things that go with it. It's hard to explain. Tokenomics is. It's an innovative self-abuzz word. But basically, it's, like, a product-oriented thing where you're just trying to make sure that a Web3 company succeeds. So you had a poker stint on the side at this time, right? Yeah. Cash game. Effective stack. 100 bigs. Under the gun. Plus one. Opens three big blinds. MP calls. Hero has ace four suited on the button. Action. I would probably take an aggressive route and I'd probably re-raise to eight big blinds. I have no idea what I just said. Yeah. In short, somebody decides that they have a good hand and they raise. And I'm in a really good position. So, like, the. The question now becomes, do I want to just match the bet or do I want to take a really aggressive approach and raise them even more money? I had to practice this line over and over again last night with Kevin. And he was like, no, you have to say it like this. Okay, now we can move on. Head of Web3 strategy and product at Lethos. Yeah. A lot of people came from, like, AAA gaming. Yeah. And they wanted to utilize, like, Web3 resources to build their game. So both on the, like, backend infrastructure and both from, like, a token. NFT, like, digital collectibles standpoint. So I think they were a little bit ahead of their time. Like, they wanted to create, like, an IP, like, in a character and then build around that universe into eventually making, like, a video game and other assets. And so I was in charge of the Web3 portion of that company. That's cool. And then you pivoted into venture. Yeah. At Andreessen on Speedrun as an AI engineer? Initially, I came in to do, like, talent engineering. But then, like, I think as. I came in, the technology of all these frontier AI companies were just getting really good. Yeah. That there was just such a demand. So I was in internal tools, like, trying to think of the best way. Like, internal tools, ranking, algorithm, person. And as AI got better, I was building a lot more internal tools, like, that were AI-related. Will you announce your next chapter or no? So I'll give a sneak peek. I actually left Andreessen Horowitz not too long ago. And the reason why is because I'm starting a new gig. I won't reveal the last, but it is a big tech. Do we call it, like, my. A mang or, like. I think I still say fang. Okay. Even though it's mang-a-mang. Okay. You can narrow it down to, like, five companies. It's a fang manga company. I'm so excited for you. Congratulations. That's huge. Yeah. And I think to bring this full circle, I mentioned that I didn't want to do computer science. And so I think the process getting into there actually was really healing for me. Because I always thought that, like, hey, like, my intelligence is here. And everyone who's in software engineering is up here. And there's this. No, dude. There's this barrier that. There's this barrier that I had. I think the big challenge was when the recruiter reached out to me, they said, oh, you have to do LeetCode data structures. And I can't say what exactly is on it. Yeah, yeah. But I had to study LeetCode. And that's something I've never done before. How was that? It was stressful at first. Because with all the AI tools out, I haven't written syntax from scratch in a while. And I had to, like, go and go on, like, blank text pad and make sure that I knew the syntax exactly. Yeah, from a blank page. Yeah. That's hard as hell. And then I had to study data structures, like, which is something. Something I haven't done before, like, from, like, a traditional. How long did it take you to do this? I grinded four weeks for 50 hours. What the heck? And you learned data structures and programming and LeetCoding in four weeks? Yeah. And keep in mind, like, I did do, like, Java classes and I did have to take one or two programming classes in college. No, but that stuff is still hard. Yeah. I did a whole semester of data structures and it was hard. And I think that, like, there were two things that were really healing for me. One, I demonstrated that I could do it. Yeah. And I think that broke the barrier. And number two, it was like, hey, like, I could still learn at 37 in a post-AI world where we're just auto-completing everything because I just thought, like, there's no way I can do syntax anymore. I haven't done that in forever. And, like, I was able to do it. Wow. You're cracked. You're so cracked. Did you know that? So here's the thing, if I'm being, like, real and honest. So, like, my wife hates this about me. That you learn fast? No. It's just because I think I have really high standards. So if you ask me, like, hey, Daniel, are you good at Super Smash Brothers? I would say no, and the reason why I would say no is because Because I know how good Mango, I know how good like Honeybox and all these other people are. And that, of course, infuriates you because then it's like, OK, like if he doesn't think he's good, what does he think about like everybody else? That's just what my wife said. Oh, my God, you're so right. My brain didn't even go there. Shit. And I think part of it is like I like to elevate other people. So I think everyone is better than me. But it's hard when I have that mindset to properly articulate where I'm actually am. If you were to ask me with my logic side of the brain, like, hey, are you going to Super Smash Brothers? I would probably say yes. I feel like you got into really successful roles. Yeah. But you're really hard on yourself as an immigrant child. At what part of your journey do you finally feel like, wow, I think I'm actually kind of crapped. I'm like successful. It's such a double edged sword. Right. Because I think the insecurities that I've had have been the drivers. Right. Like, I think there are insecurities that I've used to propel and motivate me towards action. Right. Like an example I could go is like, hey, like I used to be like overweight as a kid. Right. And that might be like, hey, like, I don't want to go into a swimming pool because I'm overweight. That anxiety and that fear could drove me to like want to lose weight and exercise. And so it leads into a good outcome. And I think my worries of like, hey, am I good enough? Have I made it like have driven me to be really ambitious? And I think the consequence of that is I haven't rested well. And I think that is something I'm learning. I don't know if I will ever have an answer to that question of like, have I made it? There's so much that has to be unraveled before I can say like, you know what? I'm really cracked and really happy. Well, maybe it's not tougher brain that's telling you it's like logic brain. Yeah. Can you logic it out? I think the tough part is, you know, if you look at who I am and like what I've built over the years, you would think I'm like a very logical person. I'm actually very emotional driven. Sorry, what was your MBTI again? INFJ. Huh. But I realized in my F that in order to grow that the T logic side of me needs to grow that I can be a more complete person. So out of my feelings of inadequacy, I realized that I can be a more complete person. So I realized it's necessary to learn the logical, like objective things. Yeah. That is so valid. Yeah. But I think it's tough, right? Because I think we come from, I would like to say the best way I could describe is like a scarcity mindset, right? Like, I don't know how well off, right? But like, I think that's very different when you grow up of like, hey, like you don't have resources. And I'm not sure, like, how's that like affected you? Oh, no, I'm very scarcity mindset coded, which kind of sucks. I think that meeting Kevin has helped. Like he also didn't grow up well off, but he, he was happy and I think like the fact that he wasn't well off and happy. And his parents were like, we got this. I think we live in excess culture in LA, e-sports, content, tech, web three. These are just extremities. People are just so insane here. And the fact is, and like the average American can live off of much less and he's from Michigan too. So he was like, we already, we already got it. We already got in the bag. We've already accomplished it. We make enough money. And worst case, we just moved back to Michigan, like no big deal. And I turned out great. I think the one thing that I've noticed, right. Is comparison such a double-edged sword. Right. And I think the hard part for us is like, I hang out with high achievers. I've been in industries of very ambitious people and I'm sure it's the same. And I think the temptation for me is like, how do I like avoid the game of comparison and like, in terms of like, what have I accomplished? And I think for you back when I was doing content creation, it was numbers, right? Like, I don't know how you deal with that or like, how do you balance the, like, Hey, like every resource should be used to up the numbers versus like, Hey, like I have an idea of what I want to do and what I don't want to do. And I'm like, I don't know how to do it. Yeah. And we complement each other very well. So she's my Kevin. She also reminds you that you are very accomplished and achieve, like you achieve the top of the industry that you're clouded and that you're a legend and that everyone knows you. Yeah. And I think when you brought up that Kevin comes from Michigan, right? Like if you pull us out of like California or LA, like it is, I often realize that I'm in a bubble. Yeah, we are. We're, it's coast mentality. Yeah. We just, we just got to chill out. I think the biggest thing that I've had to learn is like the costs of my time and my mental energy. It's like, I could always throw more hours, right? Like it's like, Hey, work harder means to put more hours, but like, I only have so many hours to give now. Right. My nights and my weekends are spent towards Asher and you know, when you have your kid, you're not sleeping anymore. So any time that you can spend during the day is resting and recovering and making sure the kid, your, your baby is fed. So I think the short end of this to wrap this kind of rambly thought is like, I've been a lot more stingy with what I say yes to with my time. Yeah. I'm glad. I'm glad. And going back to the being in LA and e-sports, like even in the business for 20, 15 years, at least. Probably on and off for like 20 if I'm 20, 20 years in the entertainment gaming business and content. Yeah. So you've been in such close proximity with high power people and very highly influential online, famous people. And you're just randomly in videos. Like I think there was like a Ludwig makes a thousand three pointers video and you're just in the back throwing basketballs. You're friends with people in offline. You like mango. What is it like being in proximity with all those people? And when you're kind of not doing what they're doing, it is weird. It's weird, but I think I have a really good position and I'll explain why I'm no longer really in content creation, even though I'm in this video today, I knew Ludwig and mango before they got big. Um, so like I got to see their rise and, um, thank goodness they're still down to earth and there's still the people that if I were like, Hey, you guys want to play poker at Ludwig's office tonight? We're down. So they haven't gone to the, you're we're too big for you. And so we still have that good relationship. I think with offline TV, like I'm in the extended universe. So like I see Scarra from time to time and I see like people in the legal legend space. And I think the advantage I have is I can relate to them in many aspects, but I think the other nature that kind of comes up in these streamer relationships is like, Hey, is this person using me? Right? Yeah. It's a weird thing. Like people thought I was cloud chasing once upon a time. And I was like, bro, I don't even know what you do. Like the, I don't care about e-sports and gaming. That's crazy. And I think once people realize that I'm, you know, taking a step out, like, Hey, like my MO is not to be more popular or gain more power. I think people like got a lot more friendly with me and I actually became a safe space for a lot of the big streamers to vent. How did you like set that MO though? Do you just be explicit or? I think I was like a little bit guarded in some ways where like, I think I would go to events if I'm invited. Right. And it was definitely important for my job at CLG, but like I tried to just relate to them as humans. It's like, Hey, like, how are you doing? Like, is there any way I can help at this party? Can I clean up just to show that I'm not like looking to collaborate with them? And I think over time I built a trust with a lot of people where we see each other and it's like, Hey Taffo, like what's up? And like, Hey, like, how are you doing? Like, how's this going for you? I think that's just the magic sweet spot that I have. Has anyone, because you already built these distrust with people who are very, very, very popular. Has anyone ever tried to use you for clout to get to them or yourself? I think a lot of my friends and the people I curate. Directly that are in my circles, aren't ones that are really going to do it. So if they like really ask me for a favor, like, Hey, can you connect me to X person? I know that they put a lot of thought and intentionality to it. So I'm like, Oh yeah, like, let me connect you. And there's a trust to that. I haven't really had like a up and coming influence or go like, Hey, can you connect me to X, Y, and Z so that I can selfishly gain from them? Yeah. And I think by nature, like I'm drawn to people who are authentic and so like, I think a lot of people, especially from smash, which is my OG scene are just great people that even have a stone play smash. We're still friends. I'm kind of curious, like for you, like, I'm sure you get a lot more, like, what is, do you have like a discernment that you use to go like, Hey, like I should help out. Or do you just kind of go like, Hey, like if I help this person, they may help me out. Like what? How does that work for you? That's a really good question. I'm generally quite helpful. Yeah. Like I will do everything I, it takes for me to deliver on the request that is being asked because I don't believe my life is competitive. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I have to live in a world in which if you got that resource and I didn't, and I feel like I lose. I'm not playing the right game. Yeah. Yeah. That's like, that's so weird. So I was like, there's a scarcity mindset in my own resources in terms of my longevity and sustainability, but I have an abundance of mindset and in terms of opportunities and I'm just feel like if it's me against you, then I'm playing the wrong game. I have a different type of follow up question, right? Cause I think one thing I really admire about you is you have a lot of mentors that pour their lives into you, right? That are helpful nurturing, right? Like, and I think you are very intentional about that. And I'm sure there's a lot of like 18 to 25 year olds, like, Hey, like I would love to meet Chloe. Like what's your limits test to go? Like a person reaches out for you for coffee. Like what makes you decide? Like I have my own, if you want me to share what I do before you, so I have a ton of blind spots from my upbringing. If we mentioned our Asian background, when it came to resumes, selling myself, playing politics, I'm a zero out of 10, like, or I started off as a zero out of 10. So I'm like thinking like, I wish I had older people who had my background that could have taught me these things before I tripped and fell on myself, like 20 times. So here's my limits test. I used to mentor like about two random people a year and my approach was terrible. I was just like, Hey, I have two time slots on Monday nights, half the people wouldn't show up. And so my first limit test, it was like, Hey, my time is worth more than this, but you have to give $20 to my Venmo. Okay. $20 is actually really cheap. Yeah. So that you have collateral, otherwise they don't show up. Sometimes if they're friends, like, I don't know if you get this, like my parents did this a lot to me when it was kind of annoying. Like my friend has a son that, um, yeah, or like he's graduating. Can you get him a job? I'm like, I can't do that, but I'll talk to them. I usually give like one homework assignment and if they can't do that, then I'm like, you know what? You don't value me. That is so sad. smart. Yeah. Because I've gotten the homework assignment and I freaking do it. Yeah. Because I would go like, hey, and it's not even that hard. It's something you should probably be doing. It's like, hey, can you give me your resume in two days? Not that hard and probably something you should be doing anyway. If they can't do that, I'm like, you don't respect my time enough to have this conversation. Or if they're like asking stuff that they could have Googled. Like, I think that is very disrespectful. It's so disrespectful. Your questions have to be good. I used to do a lot of mentorship and leadership stuff. Like I was part of a leadership nonprofit and I was very into community service and mentoring and business leadership, whatever. I did a lot of mentorship programs where you get matched up to mentees. And when I had those moments where mentees would show up, they would come to a meeting and then they would be at a cafe and they would put their phone like this and then talk to me like that. Are they just reading a list of questions? No, they were just like this. I see the sky and I see like kind of their forehead a little bit. Yeah. And I'm just like, what are you doing? Yeah. And of course, like if it's like a family friend or like a younger relative, like that's someone I know, like I'm going to be like, hey, like this is actually how you approach it. So I'll do a meta level coaching of like, hey, like if you're taking someone's time, this is what you need to do. If this is the only 15 minutes I can give you, this is the most helpful thing I can do for you. I'm kind of curious. So my sister definitely feels this. And I think she's like reading up on like eldest daughter, like expectations. I don't know. So I think there's like a subtle expectation with my parents and my sister that she has to like take care of them. And so like she almost feels like the burden of not only having to take care of her younger brothers like me, but also her parents. And I don't know, if you like experience that way. I do. I just I just accept it. Yeah. Yeah. It's tough. I take care of my brothers for life and my parents. Like I just assume that it's me and not them. Yeah. And I think I just have a caretaker personality to everyone in my life, too, with friends is why I try to take care of them. That's why I'm so gritty. Like that's probably why you're gritty to like to be a provider. Yeah. It's a lot of stress. Yeah. I mean, I think there was like I feel like there's a moment and I think there's like a psychological. That comes in kids. So like we were very financially stressed out growing up, a lot of like verbal violence and like and like physical violence sometimes. And I remember there were certain moments in my childhood where I'm like, hey, like if I want stuff in life, I need to be the provider of myself or else it's not going to happen. Yeah. And I think part of the reason why, like I work hard answering your earlier question was I realized that. So there's a story in like high school where I was just terrified to ask my parents for like anything. Yes. And so I really want to go to junior prom. And the way that I did it was, do you know the Korean drink milkis? I think so. There are these like carbonated sodas. And I knew I recognized that there was a Korean market selling them for three, three cents. And at the time, soda was a dollar twenty five for a bottle. And at other supermarkets was a dollar. So I just thought, hey, this drink tastes great. I'm going to bring samples to school, my classmates and see what happens. Everybody loved it. So I would every Sunday buy like 60 milkis cans, sell them for a dollar each and I'd make like ten dollars a day. And I would buy like 60 milkis cans and sell them for a dollar each. And I'd make like ten dollars a day. Oh, shit. Is that arbitrage? It was an arbitrage, right? But like I made fifty dollars over like six weeks. Yo, you're rich. And that's a lot of money, right? It's like two hundred dollars a month. And if you bought five, I give you a dollar. Or if you bought six, I give you a dollar off. Yeah. But that paid for junior prom. Yeah. And I just saw like how stressful my parents were with money that I'm just like, it was really hard for me to like entertain that. Yeah. Even as much as I wanted, because like I wanted Pokemon cards growing up. Oh, yeah, that's right. I forgot you were into that. That's expensive stuff. It was expensive. I mean, now it's even more expensive. Back then it was like three dollars a pack. So expensive. It is expensive. But like now there's cards that are like hundreds of thousands of dollars. And kids are buying that. Yeah. I went to a show and there was a kid that was trading like forty thousand dollars a product. And I was he was like 14. I saw a clip of Kim Kardashian and her child. I don't know who which child's walking through a card shop. And then, you know, people have like little cameras at their stand. Yeah. Is that Kim Kardashian? It's crazy. Profs to them for recognizing, you know, her. That's true. There's like a 20 percent chance I may have been like, oh, who's that? Amazing. Yeah. You're you're into a lot of hobbies and work where I think people are hella extreme poker, e-sports, high tech, Web3. And I feel like people in these spaces have really big egos, big personalities. I actually am a little bit abrasive now. I learned a lot as a product manager. I just cut people off. Yeah. I mean, I think it's important because if someone's not steering the ship, then you go directionless. Yeah. And I got really confrontational. I'm very self-aware. So I think that's like the thing that's helping me. So I have to go to like my mutual friends and be like, can you please role play this conversation with me so I don't blow up and step on this person because I'm afraid I'm going to stomp. Yeah. And I think different people take it differently. Right. And like, I think there are some people that actually appreciate the directness and there are some people that you kind of have to be softer, gentler. Yeah. I mean, I think the hard part is this, right? Like there have been people who've given me what would be harsh feedback, but I leave the conversation feeling really edified. And I think that is my goal. Like you feel edified and that you felt like you're being taken care of. Definitely there's the other end where like, oh, like I feel like shit like after this and like I have to kind of regain. But I think there are good, healthy things where like, hey, the conversation was really hard. Right. Like I did this really poorly, but I left feeling hopeful. That's good. I try to make it. Like I wouldn't say this unless I cared about your growth and our relationship. Yeah. Yeah. I think when I don't care is when I don't engage. Yeah. I mean, I think the cliche, right, is like, hey, like I'm doing this because I see the potential you're not reaching. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Maybe that's because like I think for you and I, like we see the gold in people that has not been fully like unleashed. Right. And we want to see that reality. It's true. It's true. I really want to talk about your journey going from content and then going into tech because you're the reverse of me, basically. And I read in your Medium article on why you left content creation in 2023. And you said work stress and performance led to a loss of confidence in my content that made it difficult for me to go live. And I really feel that today. I feel like I'm kind of cooked and I definitely think it's in my head. And my question for you, since you've seen the gambit of all types of creators and people who stayed in content and people who went back or went to corporate or went to another path, what kind of people do you think? Actually have what it takes to thrive in a career in content versus what kind of people you're like, I think you should look for other alternatives, my guy. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a really good question. It's something that I've thought about a lot because Twitch now has been out for like roughly two decades, if you include Justin TV. There are a lot of people that have come and faded over the years. And I kind of view a lot of the creators, they're like blitzing, right? Like they're going all in. They're spending like 80, 90 hours. And I think when you're young, like, that's fine, right? You need to hustle. You need to put in your hours. But if you look like that only lasts a certain amount of years before you burnt out. Like I have jokingly said, like, cause when I was researching streamers, I'm like, everyone has some sort of mental health issue because it's inherently not healthy. I think the ones that succeed create a system. And I think the best example I can give is Northern Lion, who like me has a kid and a wife. He has built a system of sustainability where he streams like four to five hours a day. And he's like, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know how many hours a day it's enough that he's built that he can play whatever game he wants. And that's all he does. I think the issue is a lot of people to succeed are working 90 hour weeks, right? Like I looked at the top streamers and some of the streamers were streaming like 2,500 hours a year. I think Shifter at one year was doing the 3,000 hours. And those people aren't going to last. And I think a lot of people who are successful do it just because the money, the hourly rate of their money and their sponsorship. That's so good. But I've seen the trade-offs. And I think for a lot of people, I'm just talking about the ones that succeeded, right? There are people who hit like 200 viewers who are grinding or even like 50 viewers. Kudos to you. That's really hard to do. But like, hey, like your livelihood's at stake. You might have a partner. You might have a kid. Honestly, working a mid-wage job is probably going to be more sustainable than you than seeing this journey through. Okay. So it sounds like there's obviously a threshold. There's like a money. There's a baseline of if you couldn't have sustained it in this way. Yeah. You should consider other options. And I think the big issue is this. Like, I don't know the exact statistics, but like 90% of Twitch streamers stream to like less than like five viewers. That's a lot. And I think a lot of them, I wouldn't say delusional, but like they don't have the self-awareness to go like, hey, like you've done this for like a year and a half. This is not working. I see. Yeah. I think there's also another article. It's kind of dated now that 4% of content creators actually make over a hundred thousand dollars. Yeah. 4%. That's a, that's a really low success rate for an entire career. And I think the big part's this, right? Like you can look at the numbers of like NBA players or athletes, right? I think that's often the comparison that you make. It's like, you can be struck by lightning and that's more likely to happen than being a successful content creator. So I think the large part is like, if you don't have the drive to have the self-awareness to figure out like why your content's not working and elevating, like it's probably not going to be for you. And it's probably good to go like, hey, if this is a fun hobby where you're in a diss work, and they're in your Twitch chat and you want to hang out with friends, like that's fine. It's a hobby. Yeah. That'd be a hobby. But it's hard to make this like a full-time, you're going to live off of this. So it sounds like one trait that you think will make that you're like, okay, you got the sauce. Is this drive for self-growth? Yeah. And just someone who's like really gritty to reflect and be like, why didn't this work? And what can we do next to make it work? Yeah. Like that is a one through line in all the creators that continue to make it. And you also need to get lucky, right? Like if you didn't get that collaboration or that stream rate or that shadow. Now that like did you end up there could be dozens of successful streamers. So I think the reality is you have to get lucky and you have to acknowledge that you have to get lucky on top of being really good. You said that your wife has worked with a lot of middle school students. Yeah. So I think this is like a statistic that's been brought up in the Internet. But like she would go and they would ask the kids in middle school, sixth, seventh, eighth grade, like, hey, like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I think when you and I grew up, I want to be a fireman or I want to be like, you know, a policeman or whatever, a doctor. That's crazy. Do they say the word influencers or do they say streamers? I think it used to be streamers, but now it's shifted over to influencers. Whoa. Middle school kids, the youth, the Gen Alpha. Yeah. I mean, because you look like they see people on TikTok. They see people like maybe a little less Twitch now, but like on YouTube and stuff. And that's what their aspirations are. Should anyone and everyone be a content creator? I think you could at least try. I think for me, like it would be kind of hypocritical because I tried it. Right. And like, I think I needed to get it out of my system, go like, hey, like, actually, this isn't for me. So if a person has an itch, I would tell parents, like, don't outright eliminate it. At the very least, we talked about limits tests. A lot of parents have asked me, like, how do you get into YouTube? I said, hey, if you want to make a small investment to see if it works, get your kid a camera and a mic and see if it works. Very quickly, most of them after doing it for a week, they're like, hey, this is a lot of work. And I think that is. Like, because I think people have this disconnected idea of like, hey, all I get to just play video games or I just get to stream what I'm doing. Like, there's a lot of work that goes into it that I think is that is not realized by like a high school or middle school kid. The basis of content creation, no matter what vertical you're in, is making a video. And if you don't want to make a video, you're not a content creator. Yeah. And I think for context here, like, so we're doing this podcast. I don't know how many hours it is, but like how much work was a ratio of work to actually film this versus the prep and the post prep work that you do. What do you have to do? Like, what do you think it is? Oh, there's a ton. Like the earlier interview, it took me over eight hours to prep her interview guide. I choose guests who don't have a big digital footprint usually. Thankfully, you do. And we're already friends. So that makes it easier. It's like it's like if you want to do it right, it's all consuming. It is. It is. It's not chill. But I think podcasting, unfortunately, is not seen as something that looks hard. Yeah. Yeah. But I think what isn't seen right is like this survivorship bias of like who shows up on the top of list. Yeah. Yeah. Like it is such I mean, I think in VC we call it like parallel dynamics for it's like the top point one percent get that thousand gains. And that's what everybody says. Yeah, winner takes all. But like and like to like if you think of it, like if there's a thousand Chloe's doing podcasts, like what differentiates you is like going to be the effort and willpower and also strategy. And like I kind of go like, hey, like, what does it mean to be the world's best? That's the amount of effort that's taken to be a successful content creator. Correct. I think one of my principles is we are we're going to do what it takes. The bar is world class. We're not going to be. We're not going to be average because what's the point of doing something creative if we just be average at it, then we just might as well go to like a corporate job where we can be number like one hundred thousand person. So we got to set the bar. Yeah. And so I think if a person has those aspirations, but they're not stopped. And I think like Ludwig, as he was growing up and of course, he's the one that survived and did really well for himself. But he was nonstop thinking about like, how can his content stand out better? And I think he was one of the first streamers to go like every stream I do is going to have a premise that puts something at stake that the audience is going to latch on. I love that. Whereas everyone else on Twitch at the time was just I want to just turn on my camera and play like and see how it goes and chat. Yeah. And so, I mean, I think the world like I live in now, like I'm just not in that world. Like I think the only few times I've had that at the time where I've had that peak obsession was actually Melee, where I was waking up sleeping. If I lost a match, I was just constantly just thinking like, what do I do in this situation? How do I do this better? Like creating training plans for myself, making myself a product. Like and I think that's what it really just takes. that obsession the obsession to be like a growth junkie yeah yeah i would say i'm pretty obsessed as well yeah i think it's so hard because i remember there was like two years in particular when i was growing my esports content where i was just gonna say like i'm gonna say yes to everything and i think there is a time and place where that's important and i don't regret i i think i spoke at gdc i spoke at this mit sloan conference i did a lot that year and maybe i don't do that now but i think there's a time where you really need to push and i think there's a time where like it's okay right yeah and so i haven't nailed it i don't have the magic formula but i feel like the people who have accomplished a lot seem to figure that out i know kevin has my veto has a veto card and i'm like oh gosh darn it it's time for me to back off i think that it's also tough in the la space being in la and being a content creator and being a parent is really hard because like everyone just has freaking peter pan syndrome and no one wants to grow up and not because maybe they don't want to grow up but because the lifestyle that is required to create and capitalize on that momentum and be as like relevant and push out as much and overnight to operate that fast you kind of need to have a life with no responsibilities yeah yeah it's like even the founder life right like it's just easier to live that life when you don't have anything tying you down or things that you have to go away for so i find myself in a midst of people who are not trying to grow up really just because it's better for their career that way yeah you know you're the first parent how was that in some aspects it is in either or right like my dad didn't spend that much time with me but but he had to provide for us right and if i want to be like a good functioning father like even just like come going out on like a thursday night let's say i want to go play riff down with kevin right that is another night that vicky's gonna have to sacrifice in the week to watch asher and that is another night i don't see asher right and so like now it has to become us not just vicky and me but also asher and every decision includes him damn being a parent you really gotta give to this this baby yeah i think the hard part is this right like you have your anime hour of decompression like i don't know if it's an hour but you have decompression time i think what happens and like you have to kind of just figure out how it works right you have your finances babies cost a lot your time but then also like i realized like i needed like an hour in a day and you don't get that with a talk with a baby and so like everything gets sacrificed that's so rough i think what's naturally gonna happen and again i know you're a planner you like to be excellent it just kind of happens and i think it's one of those things where you don't have to overthink because like you're gonna make those sacrifices and lifestyle changes as you realize like you're sleep you're gonna be sleep deprived right like so like frank calls you out nine o'clock for an influencer event you're like i gotta sleep like those things will just naturally change for you got it yeah okay i just gotta accept it i get it so i think there's a delicate balance right like i've shared the the harder sides of sacrifice to raise a kid um it's also great right but like i don't think we have to pretend and lie to ourselves that is the best thing ever i have no regrets and like hey this is really hard and i think sometimes we gravitate towards the other where we try to pretend like hey parenting is perfect uh your baby's perfect and i think oftentimes like having that mindset's very isolating and as a dude i don't understand like what you're going through and i don't know what you're going through and i think one of the things you're going to have to remind kevin of is like hey you're on mom brain meaning that you're sleep deprived if i tell you something like hey pick up the food at 6 p.m there is a non-zero chance you're going to forget that yeah and you have to remind kevin like hey like i'm not a functional human being i may forget things i'm not going to comprehend things i'm not going to be able to think straight and that is just the reality of the situation so i wanted to ask you how being a father has affected your personal ambitions but i'm not going to be able to comprehend things i'm not going to be able to but you've kind of alluded to it you had to recalibrate yeah i think to like encapsulate the thoughts a little bit further like there is a daily surrender i have to do of like hey like this isn't just my life i'm living for i'm living for my kid and i have to have that mental resolve when i look at myself in the mirror that i'm living for other people and not just myself and that i'm going to make the decisions to reflect that so it's a daily bad there are some days where i'm very frustrated i think the first year like i didn't go out and see friends um i think i counted eight days that i went out to see friends in like a year whoa yeah this was last year it was like a rough year stretch and so i think one of the big challenges right is like hey like your identity is going to be a mom but you don't want to lose yourself either in the process and there's a balance and tension there too and i think one of the things i told vicky was like hey ever since you became a mom i want to be as supportive as possible to you but i feel like number five on like i don't feel like i'm your husband and so the other thing you don't want to lose because the baby has so much it's like hey you got to wash and sanitize the baby bottles you got to feed it there's just an endless amount of tasks of and your jobs and maintaining the household that you start to become roommates and like i think what i also recommend if you can as a luxury like get a babysitter once in a while and date each other like if you it's very easy to get lost in the sauce yeah before we wrap for better for worse we gotta do our very final act the performance review legally this does not affect your compensation or your job title but it does affect your aura so i'm going to ask you some rapid fire questions and just give me your gut reaction are you ready yeah let's go for it would you rather have asher be an esports professional or crypto day trader or full-time poker player uh esports player ew why just because i think it has the least amount of downside because esports you have your time that you spend but and those other two you can go into heavy debt would you rather spend 36 hours at a poker table with all knits spend 36 hours at a poker table with all knits and spend 36 hours at a poker table being wobbled by ice climbers in your favorite game or 36 hours watching all of the seasons love island at 1x speed no skipping. I would rather watch Love Island if given the choice. That's so funny. Do you watch Love Island? You're not a Love Island guy. I'm not a Love Island person, but the other two sound like Death by a Thousand Needles. Would you rather be right or promoted? I think realistically, if I were to be real, right. Oh, are you living with main character energy right now or are you in your NPC era? I definitely feel like I'm Asher's NPC right now. Asher's the main character. Meetings before 10 a.m., human rights violation or a personal problem? Personal problem? I think I like the 7 a.m. meeting personally. I'm disappointed in you. Out of 100% for a promotion, what percentage is skill and what percentage is visibility? I would say 70% visibility, 30% skill. Whoa, low on skill. Is Gen Z cooked or trainable in the workplace? Trainable but different. I think that you're going to have to be very accommodating and like if you have preconceived notions, it's probably not going to work out. Fox or Falco? Definitely the bird. Mango's character definitely has a lot more hype moments. Dude, I thought you were going to say Fox. The way that I see it is Fox is over-commoditized just because of online. You just see so many Foxes that are just like, oh, this is the same old. But when you watch a really good Falco, I'm just going to say Mango's Falco, it just hits different. All right, that was the last question. Thank you so much. You have gotten an Exceeds Expectations. Yay! Thank you for being on Office Drama. If people wanted to reach out to you, where can people find you? I mean, the best way is Twitter, at TaffoKents. You're not on LinkedIn. I am on LinkedIn and I'll probably start posting again. I guess we could post it magically somewhere here. Magically Daniel. Daniel Lee 912. Are you open to people cold messaging you to get advice? I think if they watch the episode and know what I dislike and do their homework, I'm okay with it. That's true. I don't want the, so how do I get into eSports? Oh, you get that a lot? I used to get that all the time. I'm like, do you want to be an accountant at eSports? Like, what do you, what does that mean? So put some thought into it before you reach out. Yeah. Be thoughtful guys. Yeah. And would you, Taffo, ever want to come back on a future Office Drama episode? Absolutely. I mean, if you need me, just call me. What kind of like life chapter do you want to get to before coming back that you want to update the drama llamas on? I mean, I think what would be a good entry point is like a year from now when you have your kid and we can talk about the postmark about the kid postmortem of like what the first year has been. Okay. That's, that's a fair checkpoint. Thank you so much for being on Office Drama. Yay. Thank you, Chloe. Shout out to our drama llamas on Patreon. Last week we shared Jamie's tarot card reading of my life. So if you want to see that, check it out. I'm slowly seeing people join the Patreon. So it's amazing. And we also broke a thousand reviews on Spotify. Today, I just checked where we are and we are top 15 on business. We're still, I think the number two female led business podcast on Spotify. And remember by episode one, we're going to be doing a podcast on Spotify. So if you want to check that out, click the link in the description. And we're going to be doing a podcast on Spotify. If you're in the corporate world, it's just really easy to fantasize about leaving and doing creative or content stuff, but it truly isn't that glamorous. Remember the grass is always greener. I wanted to bring Tafo on to share his unique journey from NASA to e-sports to content and now back to tech. And if you follow his LinkedIn, you'll see which company he ended up joining. We did not go into this because we don't quite know what the policy is, but we're social media stuff there. So that's why we're going to be ultra careful and respectful of that information. Tafo's experience is really fascinating to me because he's been around some of gaming's biggest and most influential figures and still stays true to himself. He's really kind. He's responsible. He's giving. He just has a really good heart, but navigating this space is super weird. We have a whole section on working with narcissists on the Patreon. We have a lot of fun. And I kind of have too. So, you know, people are crazy in gaming, web3 tech, and I'm sure some of you've seen it too. I'm currently getting ready to head up to SF this weekend to interview Deb Blue, previous CEO of Ancestry and VP of product at Meta, who founded Facebook Marketplace. I'm also interviewing Srinija Srinivasan, who was employee number five at Yahoo and editor-in-chief. Actually, I got connected to her because I just did an interview with Taf, the Asian American Foundation, interviewing her as well as Jerry Yang, who is a co-founder of Yahoo. So that was like a really big interview. So that'll come out, I don't know, like September or something on Taf's channel. But then I was like, Srinija, I'm in love with you. I'm obsessed with you and your story. So I asked her, I was like, would you be down to be on Office Drama? And she said yes. So I'm really pumped for that. I just finished their interview guides, which honestly take me forever. Sometimes they take me like eight hours to do because I do so much research on the guests. And I want to tackle it from a fresh angle that isn't just, tell me your life story. So I hope you appreciate the background work to frame how Office Drama stories are told. Thank you so much for watching today's episode and I'll see you next week.