'You Said You Were EDUCATED!' Victor Davis-Hanson vs Richard Wolff on Socialism

- Americans don't want capitalism anymore. - Well, there's a lot of things that are going well right now who are in the eye of the hurricane before the midterm. - These very charismatic, socialist, like, Mandani, El Said, AOC. - The problem is capitalism is an unequal monster of injustice. - The American empire is not in decline. - They're wrong. - Instead you were an educated man. You weren't, you didn't say you were uncouth. - I didn't, I didn't, you made that up too. - What is the point? - Well, if you wouldn't interrupt, you wouldn't. - If you weren't, if you weren't, if you weren't. - Yeah, well, if you weren't, if you weren't, I wouldn't bother interrupting you. - Whether the DNC did a ship like said or not, and most indications are that they don't, the Democratic Socialists of America, are having a moment, insurgent socialists and won many prime music and centrist opponents in this key election year, often defying big spending campaigns designed to keep them out. The leading lights include New York City mayors around Mandani and the popular Congresswoman, Alexandra Ocasio-Cotes, who may yet run for president. Republicans tend to take crews and the president say their progress is chilling. And then all Americans should fear what they call a burgeoning communist islamist alliance. Campaign rhetoric aside is fair to say that most conservatives think their economic ideas are insane, but that doesn't mean they're not popular. Then a world of billionaires is bogeymen, stagnant wages and soaring inflation, voters may well be buying what they're sharing. My next two guests have very different views about where this is all going. Richard Wolfe is a popular Marxist economist, often cited by the DSA. Advin to Davis Hanson, the leading history and a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and also with the counter revolution, the fall and rise at Donald Trump and the MAGA movement. Well, welcome to both of you. Victor, welcome back to Uncensored. I want to read you a clip from Donald Trump in 2024. So we are a nation in decline, a failing nation. We are a nation that has the highest inflation in 50 years where banks are collapsing. They are pretty apocalyptic view of the United States. Was he right? - Well, in the Biden four years, the aggregate inflation had gone almost 21% and at average 5.1% every year. But if you were to look at staples, vehicles, fuel, insurance, housing, health care had gone almost 30%. So he was right about that. His first year, he had about 2.6%. So he halved the annual rate of inflation. We'll see about this year. About decline, I don't think that. I think what he was suggesting is that we were an exceptional preeminent country and that that was a reaction to prior presidents that said that we were not especially any more exceptional and say the United Kingdom or Greece, but if you look at right now very quickly, most of the prognosis 15 years ago about the United States proved wrong. They said China was going to eclipse our economy. They have four times the population, yet they have $10 trillion less GDP. I can remember in 2006 we were told the EU was a new socialist paradigm. They have 450 million people. I'm 100 million more people than we do and they have a $10 trillion smaller GDP still. And you look at, say, eight or nine rubrics, space launches, satellites, bioengineering, digital media, software, AI, and you look at companies in the world that are measured either by market capitalization or UCG downloads. And out of those top 10, almost in every category, nine are America. Once in a while there's a Chinese or a European country. So you can use a lot of barometers, but the United States, I think we're in the eye of the hurricane before the midterm, but if you look at recent developments, we have the highest per family income. That was 2025 in history. We have the lowest crime rate in 70 years. We have the lowest poverty rate at about 10.2% of the population. We created 140,000 new jobs last year. There is worry because of the war about inflation and the price of oil, but we've increased oil production by about a million barrels and we're the largest producer of natural gas and history and exporter of it and the largest producer currently of oil. So there's a lot of things that are going well right now, but we're in a political campaign. And the war has clouded a lot of that news, I think. Richard Wolff, welcome to Uncensored. I think you broadly grade the American Empire as not what it was. I think you differ about why this is. You see that there's been a kind of inevitable death rattle of global capitalism. Explain why you feel that. Well, I take a historical view and I don't cherry pick my statistics in the manner of Mr. Hanson, which is a remarkable exercise. But he has a problem, which is, as you open the program, socialism is on the rise here in the United States, faster and more broadly-based than anyone, including Mr. Hanson had foreseen or expected. And there's good reason for that, unless you want to dismiss all of the people that are finding socialism attractive as being cloudy or uninformed and things like that. Here's the story about the empire, and I'm glad you brought it up. Empires were created starting about four centuries ago. In your country, Pierce, England is where this began because capitalism replaced feudalism. And when capitalism replaces feudalism, there's an internal urge to expand. The successful company is the one that makes a profit. The more successful company is the one that turns the profit back into the business to grow it, because with competition, growth is a condition of survival. So capitalism grows. If it starts in London, pretty soon it runs out of the workers and the raw materials, and the food needed in that area. And it expands. The history of the last four centuries is masses of rural, agrarian people being drawn as in a magnet into the urban industrial. And the capitalism created these new countries, Western Europe, to begin with, spanning to North America and Japan. And they genuinely built a world economy. Marx was one of the early thinkers to point that out. They are generating a world economy. The problem is that the economy, capitalism generated, is an unequal monster of injustice in which Asia, Africa, Latin America, and much else are used to funnel wealth. Belgium is a small country in Northwest Europe. But if you give it the Congo, it becomes wealthy. But that's because it takes the wealth of the Congo and moves it to Brussels. So it looks pretty as Brussels indeed does. And that is now the revolt of the third world, the global south, whatever you want it. The other feature, which goes most to your question, is that the culmination of European-led colonialism were the two worst world wars in human history. When they ran out of the globe to take for each other, they began to intrude on each other, the British on the French, the French on the German, the Russians on the Japanese. You know the story. And world wars one and two are the culmination. What people don't understand is that when the colony, the colonializing countries, destroyed one another in world wars one and two, they had an exception. Because air power and air technology weren't developed yet, the Atlantic and Pacific oceans protected the United States, so that it was the country having joined the colonizers that inherited the colonial system from all the others. The second half of the 20th century is the century of the wealth of America because it became the uni empire, the collection of all the others. As the British lost India, the United States went in, as the French lost their colonies, US corporations, US government, US military went in. We enjoyed being the one big empire. But given that the world was building up to an anti-imperial, anti-colonial era, which we're living through, it is now the time for the United States, the inheritor of all those empires, to suffer the result they all did, which is as every empire in human history, it was born, it evolved, and then it passed away, and we are now passing away. And nothing illustrates it better than this kind of war with Iran, where one of the empires [BLANK_AUDIO] Corners turns out to be able to fight back. Victor, you know, it seems to me because I'm sure that with lots of that, you may have agreed with, a lot of it, you don't agree with. What is inarguable right now is this very palpable rise of the democratic socialist, and there's these very charismatic socialist, like Mamdani, El Said, AOC and others, all different, slightly different forms of socialism, but socialist at their heart, really. And there is clearly a movement going on. What'd you put that down to? I mean, if you think that what they're espousing is disastrous, why are so many young people in particular gravitating to these younger, dynamic socialists in the way they are? - Well, before I answer that, I'll just say that if you take worldwide socialism and empires and American decline, if you look at when, if you look at the Western hemisphere five years, six years ago, the left had used a word pink tide that they felt that Brazil was a model, Venezuela was a model, Colombia was a model. So if those 32 nations that consist of South Central and the Caribbean, there's only five now that are socialist. Brazil, Nicaragua, probably Mexico, and Paraguay just flip. All of the rest are either capitalist or consensual governments and most of them are pro-American. And if you look at where the China is right now, which is, I don't know what we would call it, it's quasi-capitalist, quasi-socialist, surely totalitarian, it is an internal turmoil. It's just fired all of its general staff. It's got a 1.0 fertility rate. Its GDP has not increased as everybody told, said it would. In some ways, you could look at as one American produces 40%, 30% more GDP in goods and services than his four Chinese counterparts. So the American empire, if that's the term and we were not a colonial empire is not in decline, it's in ascendance relative to the EU, relative to our neighbors to the North, Canada, relative to Russia, relative to, that's just, I didn't sherry pick those statistics. That's just the fact. - Yes, you did. - Mr. Worcett, no, if you wanna say that the GDP figures are wrong, you tell me, but as for here, - You're wrong. - Let me tell you, you just made it. - I didn't interrupt you, please. - No, no, look, I let you go, I let you say three or four things that were reasonable. - You talk a lot longer than I did. You talk a lot, I happen to have an answer with the question. - That's another cherry pick, you know, it's not the length, it's really the substandard matter. - You might learn that. - Maybe if you were, if you were a little bit more educated, you'd learn it. That I'm a professor of economics. I study economic history. One of the things we study is economic development. There is no country on earth in the history of our race that has developed its economy faster further than the people's Republic of China. Whatever you wanna play games, that is the reality. For the last 40 years, the average growth of GDP in China - I didn't question that. - I didn't let that, oh no, come on. - Either you say it and you get directed. - Or you interrupt the correction. - No, you're the two options. - The other option. - No, I'm not talking about the day. - I'm talking about the day, it's tall. - Today, in the year 2026, using the numbers of the IMF. The economic growth of the GDP of the United States is anticipated to be 2.1 to 2.2%. The same number for China is 5%. Now, even you can understand who's doing better. - I'm just telling you that for 1.4 billion people produce about 30 to 40% GDP as Americans do, given its population, and you were talking about American decline. I just quoted all of the statistics of major companies in the world that are dominating the new technology. - They're all, I'm not trying to interrupt you, but you let me answer his question, if you please. I didn't, first of all, I didn't engage in ad hominem, and I didn't interrupt you when you were giving your oration. I'm just telling you that the socialist program in America is there's two catalysts, number one. The DSA's membership has been about 75 to 85% white, and it's mostly confined the nucleus into urban areas in blue or purple states. And when you look at the profile of education, they, not only, most of them have DAs, but most of them have advanced degrees. So you're talking about a very affluent group of white, largely white people who feel that their educational certification, the letters after their name, have not brought them the level of affluence that they feel that they enjoy, and which they is in stark contrast to the people they associate with in New York, in Denver, LA, in San Francisco, in Boston, and they cannot afford, I mean, they don't have the money of doctors and other professionals, and the prices in those cities for housing, which cost of living food, or beyond their reach. And that has made that elite group of people organize, and they vent their frustrations, and they are spreading that message. There is a second group. We have about 53 million people who were not born in the United States, but 17%, that's a record in percentage and actual numbers. A small minority of that group come, as first or second generation, from largely the Middle East. And I'm talking about people like Rashida Talibe, Ilyan Omar, Zoraan Mondami, Hassan Piker, I'll be well, Said. I'm just taking in examples. Are you really going to try once again to pin socialists, are dangerous immigrants? Are you not? I'm not. I'm not. I did. I crumpt in the end, that you repeat that. Wow. You can't do better than that. My goodness. Here, this is the first part. You know why 75% of the people in the country, me? I think you should let me finish this. What are you doing? I don't want you to finish the point. You said you were an educated man. You weren't, you didn't say you were. I didn't, you made that up. Let me finish. Let me finish. And so I wasn't talking about their immigrant status per se. I were saying that we have an elite elite group of people. This is the second component of what makes up the socialist leadership. And what do they have? And what do they have in common? They're very, very wealthy people. Well, the other socialists. Yeah, so me finish. I just said that there was an elite in the cities that are highly educated. They come from upper middle class. They're largely white. And they're dissatisfied that their credentials did not result in the type of life they deserve. They think they deserve. As far as the immigrants, I'm saying that there is a pattern here. Zoran Mandami, you could argue is a, he's a dual citizen of Uganda. He came from what you would call a settler colonial 1% of India that owns 60% of the GDP of Uganda. He's very wealthy. His parents, one's a PhD, one's a filmmaker. Haasan Pikers, Turkey's family, or multi-millionaires. He drives a $200,000 Porsche. He bought a $3 million home. Are you kidding? Is he having an analysis of socialism on the personal property of two people? No, I'm not finished. I'm not finished. I said, "Illian Omar, file it." What is the point? Well, if you wouldn't interrupt, you would learn. I'll say something. I wouldn't have a bother interrupting you. Illian Omar just filed a $30 million. I don't think it's accurate net worth statement as required by federal disclosures. Abdul-El-Sahid filed a tax return of $600,000. So what I'm getting at is, when you, these two groups of people are the driving force in the socialist movement. And we don't know yet that we're not. You just made that up. You just made that. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't have the driving force of anything. Yeah, they are. They're in the news. They're in the news. In American politics, one of the reasons we have socialism is that American politics is a game for rich people, 99% of the time. That's what we have. You just name the rich of the Senate and you look at the house, you'll see that the number of millionaires is overwhelming. What are you doing? They're degrading the Democratic part. They're greater on the left than they are. Oh, stop. That's true. I tell you nonsense. Listen, we have a country dominated right now by billionaires. The people sitting on the platform behind Mr. Trump, when he was inaugurated in January of last year are the billionaires of this country. If they were Russian, we'd call them oligarchs. but we don't, we leave that for them. If you look in there, if you look at the top two, if you look at the top two, if you look at the top two. - Let me ask Peter, let me ask Peter a question. Isn't the big problem for Trump? As you've got this rise, a popular rise of the democratic socialists, you've also got the whole fall out from the Iran war, and in particular, the impact it's had on cost of living, and in particular, say, on gas prices. So data released by the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, gasoline was $3.08 a gallon in January 2025. It's now $4.48. Diesel was at $363 per gallon in January 2025. Now $653, you know, Trump's day of reckoning for the Iran war may well be through the prism of gas prices come the ballot box in the midterms. Isn't that a cold, hard reality of why you'll see it? - Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. - Well, hang on a second. - No, I'm asking Victor first. I will come to you, Richard. But why do you do that? Why do you interrupt all the time? - Just on that point, Richard, do you know what I'm saying? Let me ask Peter, I'll come to you, Richard. But is this not going to be one of the major determining factors that Trump, far from reducing the cost of living as he campaigned on, and far from not going in attacking middle-eastern countries which he campaigned on, has done the complete reverse and people may vote with the reality in their lives? - We'll see it. It could be. In 1992, gas prices out of the first Gulf War, I would argue, made George HWB's not be re-elected. And he was not in a recession. It had ended 20 months earlier. But people felt the price of gas was high. And they believed that the Democratic message was very well articulated by Bill Clinton that we were in the worst, including literally, the worst recession since the Great Depression. That 91 recession had been over for 20 months when he said that. But the price of gasoline had soared when the oil fields of Kuwait, as you remember, were torched. So yes, the price of gasoline is the most evident increase will the inflation rate get to 3%, it probably will. But it won't get to 5%, which was the average of the Biden administration. But that's not going to matter because it's the perception. And as far as the Iran War is unpopular, but it's a very different war. I mean, Iran is a country of 93 million people. It was considered the strongest country in the Middle East. We haven't had a ground war. We have only had about 38 days of kinetic activity. And then we've had negotiations, a brief interlude of back and forth missile fire, negotiations and negotiations over these seven months. So it's a very strange, we've tragically lost 19 people. But if you look at the entire seven-month war, the accident rate every day in the US military is one fatality. We have had 11 times more fatality during the war than we'd lost in a way. But the problem, I think the problem, and I'll bring Richard back in here. The problem with the Iran War is the asymmetric war that the Iranians have been waging by controlling the straight-of-all-mouse, which has 20% of the world's energy flow through it. I interviewed the Prime Minister of Qatar at the weekend in London, and the economic damage to Qatar alone from the liquid nitrogen, liquid natural gas that goes to the straight, has been rendered almost to nothing for seven months. But we're right in the middle of something. Yes, Trump should have said that he should have explained exactly what he was doing on day one. And I think they were too optimistic based on the Maduro and the first round. Yeah, I think they agree. I think they can take the regime out. And it's not realistic. I've got a lot of money. We're running out of time. I want to leave Richard a chance just to have a final word just on this, because it seems to me the rise of the Democratic Socialists, the rising gas prices, the rise of cost of living, Trump's, you know, in a way, repudiation of his own campaigning with what he's done with Iran and the impact on the economy, that this could be a day of reckoning in the midterms. What does that mean for America post-midterms? Should he lose both the House and the Senate, do you think? Well, he would be right in the same position. This is Trump is in Trump. Mr. Trump is in Trump. 39 or 41 is in 39 or 41. What happens? And the Republican Party is in trouble no matter what happens. And that's because of larger social issues. The reason I gave the history was to give a sense of the larger process. The United States at the end of World War II was less unequal than the European countries. Now it has outpaced all the European countries to become the most unequal at all. You know, it is an incredible study in capitalism's failure to generalize or to bring prosperity. Wherever capitalism settles, it creates such inequality that it eventually erupts. That's when the inequality is reduced until they can reestablish the capitalist system which then resumes the rush to inequality. That's what fuels socialism. That's why the government that's why the poverty rate is low. That socialism isn't there doesn't work. It's like the old joke of Mark Twain. The reports of its death have been greatly exaggerated. Socialism is the governing party in Spain. Socialism is about to become the mayor of Berlin, not just the mayor of New York. There are reasons for that that have to do with internal transformations in those societies. That's what's going on. The mass of Americans don't want capitalism anymore. That's the, they don't know much about socialism. How could they? It's been banned since the Cold War began in '45. What you're seeing is the expression of anti-capitalism as the appreciation of socialism. That would get you to understand where the support for it is coming. OK, I'm going to leave in that. Fastening debate in the poverty. I'll just, I'll end with one statement. The poverty rate, as I speak, is the lowest it's ever been recorded. And that was the goal. No, that's not correct. It's another one that is true. Magic, magic cherry-picked statistics. No, you're, that's what I do for a living. You can, it's what I do for a living. You can yell at home and you brag about yourself and your criticism, because you don't have an argument when you don't have an argument. Well, the beauty of this show is that people can now scurry to the internet. They can Google it and work out. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And for the record, I love picking cherries. Anyway, I'll leave it there. Jettelon, thank you both very much. 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