“YOU’RE IN THE MIX” with Jane Deitch

[Music] Hello, I'm Mark Curry and in this episode of Backstage Curry, we delve into the world of the casting director, as I talk to Jane Deach. Jane was head of casting for BBC Drama Series for ten years. She also sat on the Drama Series Development Board, developing the production of new series, as well as negotiating contracts for series regulars. Jane formed her own business in 2007 and casts for a wide variety of theatre, musical theatre and films. She has too many credits to list here, it would take a long time. So let's talk to Jane Deach. Jane, welcome to Backstage Curry. The obvious way to start this is to say, what was your path to becoming a casting director? Accidental. When I started as a casting director, it wasn't quite the career path that it is now, where people target where they're going to go and they'll do some experience with agents and then they'll do some experience with casting directors. I was working for the BBC and I was what they call a contracts executive, which meant that any actor that was employed by the BBC has to have a contract and that had to be negotiated. And with actors, that was within the terms of the equity agreement that the BBC had with the union. And that was what I did. I was centralised to people in a TV programme and I had to contract them all. I had a budget and I had to go with the agreement and within the budget and also within the status of each artist. Their experience had been in the industry, did they bring a lot with them, where they knew where they should be on the minimum, all of this kind of thing. And I loved it. And one of the programmes that I was allocated was EastEnders. And it was when EastEnders went from two episodes a week to three episodes a week, which was a big thing at the time. And a new executive producer had taken over his name was Leonard Lewis, a wonderful man. And he looked at the thing and he thought, well, I've got somebody doing the contracts and I've got somebody doing the casting. That seems a bit counter-intuitive. Why don't we have the same person doing both? So that they bring the actors in, they know them already, they then negotiate their contracts. So he called me in and he said, look, I'm going to change things around. Would you take on the job of casting as well as contracting? So I immediately said, well, yes, of course. And this was just before Christmas. And then I had a really weird Christmas and you're thinking, what have I done? This is EastEnders. It's like the biggest show in the country. And I've never cast before. I have my background is drama. I had been contracting actors for a number of years. So I was well aware of that part of the industry, but it was a baptism of fire. But fortunately, Leonard was very, very supportive. And I quickly realized that this is what I should have been doing all along. But obviously he must have known or you must have known that you were interested in that side of it, that you were okay, you're doing the contracts. But did you have conversations with him about, you know, I think she'd be bed. I've been thought about this person and said, and that person did that ever happen. What before he asked me to cast it? No, not at all. I haven't even met him before. He just called me and then he said, you do our contracts, don't you? I said, yes. And then it, well, I mean, he did ask me a bit about my background. You know, he knew that I'd done drama degree. He knew I'd been a performer of sorts. And you know, he, he, he, he tested me out a little bit. I'm obviously going to say, but no, I haven't really met him before. But he was incredible. And everyone else on the team was, was incredible. And the directors were great with me. And it was just, but I just, it was a niche that I've, I didn't find it difficult. If you know what I mean, it sat very comfortably, very quickly. So then describe what you did, what that job actually entailed. Well, and any job really, you, the first thing you start with is the script. Once you've had all the conversations with the directors and producers, and you've been allocated a job or whatever, you start with the script. And then what is required of the script. And I suppose because I had done quite a bit of work as a student on script work. And I kind of knew, I knew that world as well. And I could pinpoint things like, well, you've got two policemen there. Why don't you just have a while. You know, but it doesn't mean that I don't want to hear that, Jane. No, I know, but as a creative environment, I am about saving money as well. It's about fairness and it's also about saving money. And just pointing out the obvious, but yes, it starts with the script. And you realize, certainly with the extenders, you have to have, you have to really get inside the skin of EastEnders, if you're going to work on it. You have to know the, the regulars, you have to know the kind of the way people work. And so you know exactly what, what you have to find. And in those days, breakdowns didn't go out on spotlight. Breakdowns went out by facts. And post, you know, post came back. Yeah. I ate in the series, which had to be collated. I mean, dark ages, but that's how it, that's how it started. So just to let people know because I can another process, obviously, because I've been around for a hundred years, but just to explain what actually used to happen. So you'd, the role would come up. And you would contact agents, agents would send it with facts, yeah. A number of agents. And then they would post in their suggestions. I mean, it must have cost a fortune. And then, you know, someone in my office had to divide them all up and say, that that pile is for that part and that pile is for that part. And then you'd just go through them and then essentially those photographs and CVs. You know, they're wasted in a way because you can't a CV. You can't file a CV because next day it's out of date. So yeah, that's how it, that's how it used to happen. But then great pressure because you, and this is what you do now, of course, there's, there's pressure now. You have to decide from those pictures or those suggestions or whatever. Who should be brought in? Let's segue on to what it's like now. So now spotlight have breakdowns. We send out a breakdown and it can go to, I mean, there's hundreds of agents on spotlight. And I suppose because of what I've worked, what I learned at the BBC, which was being having to be very inclusive. I do tend to send my breakdowns to everybody. Just to, you know, because you never know what comes in. That means more to go through obviously, but I think it's worth it. So you send out a breakdown and the suggestions come back through spotlight. So there's no paperwork involved in that. So. I mean, for a big musical, I can get easily 4,000 responses. Yeah, amazing people just don't realize how many, how many folk there are wanting to get a gig. I don't think they do. And if I were to expand that search to the actor database as well as the agents, you can imagine what, what that does to the amount of suggestions that come in. So it's yes, it's, it's, it's tough. I mean, it's tough to realize that you're against that many people. But what that does mean is how important it is to market yourself properly. To keep your CV up to date, to keep your photographs up to date. To. Lay out your CV. So it's easily readable and quickly readable. I mean, I give myself about 10 seconds with each CV. And I can, I'm so used to doing that now. I can, I can get what I need from a CV in about that length of time. If it's well put, well set out. And of course, there's pressure on an agent to do this. Because sometimes as artists, we rely totally on our agents to put us forward and put the right picture and say the right things. And some some actors haven't got the kind of agents who do that or they haven't got agents, you know, that's true. And I think sometimes there's a disconnect between the what is the actors responsibility and what is the agents responsibility. I mean, I can see I see these. I mean, I'm just looking at one yesterday. very busy actor. The last credit on his CV was 2013, I'm sorry Jane I just thought it was worth a try you know I mean give me a break. Well fortunately you and I have met since 2013 so but I think I mean yes he was a busy actor and he's he's reasonably well known however I do think they have everyone has a responsibility to try and keep things up to date and also if we're talking about CVs for a few minutes ages when I do a search you know you put in an age range and sometimes if people I mean again an example no names someone who I know to be in their late 50s had a playing age 26 to 40 no okay okay you might you might look you might be able to play 40 at a pinch if you're 56 but if you don't put the right age range on I won't find you you know you'll miss out on that search because your age range hasn't been kept up to date and that's a shame because and it's a waste of everybody's time you know you walk into a room and they go they look at the picture they go well what's happened this is ridiculous no I know I know but also you know I say to I say to actors are taught to actors quite a lot in workshops and things like that that if you can imagine a pyramid and the bottom of the pyramid is all the new graduates coming out and all the young people from you know university courses and all that who are just flooding into the industry that's your bottom line of the of the triangle at the pyramid if you once you start going up the sides of that pyramid people will drop off right they'll drop off it'll be a natural selection so a lot of people will give up other people may go into wonderful other parts of the industry like casting or like teaching or choreography or any of these wonderful things producing whatever so therefore the author you get up that pyramid and the more you're clinging onto that pyramid the fewer actors are in competition with you so you should embrace that fact and go right okay I'm here I've stopped the course I'm good I'm gonna own my age own where I am and get the parts that are right for me just follow Dame Judy just follow what Dame Judy's doing she's there she's still up for it she's realistic about what she's right for what she's wrong for you know it's so true it's you have to as an actor look at yourself regularly and go okay okay I'm whatever you know I'm in my case I'm 63 I'm 63 now and you know I'm I'm a good 63 and I'm lively and energetic to touch wood but you know and it's funny because I had a lunch with my agent Phil Bellfield as I was leaving wicked and it was a great lunch because Phil absolutely tells it like it is and we were talking about you know maybe things I could go for and I suggested a few things you went no two old okay I would about now two old ten years ago darling but not now but it was great because deep down I kind of thought that as well but he was just reminding me and that's what you need you need to be realistic but you need somebody on your side who looks at you and goes listen this is what you should be going for it's hard to find sometimes it's hard to find that reality it is hard and I I echo what you say about Phil he's wonderful where I've shared an office with Phil and Mark from Bellfield and Ward for a number of years and it was fantastic because they could see my side of the work and I could see their side of the work which was fascinating really but no and it's it's hard because actors you know you have to have a strong self belief as an actor but marrying that with with pragmatism is not always easy you know when you're in this business but also you know as an older actor I think there are there are so many more opportunities than there used to be I think and also if you the wonderful thing about an older actor particularly if they're an older actor coming into the profession or for example if they've had a quite a long break raising a family doing another job deciding to come back or whatever that's wonderful for a casting director because you've got a sort of older new face so it's it's it's a way of introducing new new talent at a different stage of life and that's I've always at my I always admire that I admire when people come back in I admire when people enter the profession a little bit older because they just never they've always wanted to do it but it's never been right or they could afford it and that's that's great for us because those are the people that will do the smaller parts to get the experience whereas someone else who was clogged onto that pyramid for 30 years is going to go no I'm not going to do two scenes why would I do two scenes whereas you know these are the people that have just started or just returned will happily do that two things on this casting of of older actors and I'd like to cover the first thing is actresses older actresses do say I've heard it a lot that it's very difficult for them as they get older that the parts are not there is that still the case I've heard that a lot over the over the years what's the state now for older actresses would you say in casting I think it's got it's always going to be tough isn't it I mean especially of musicals which is which is what I do most of these days it's a young person's game really but I'm struggling to think of a show I've done recently that doesn't have some older female parts and I mean you take something like flowers from Mrs Harris which we did at the Riverside wonderful parts for older actors and why Christmas I'm doing at the moment wonderful parts for older actors but it is it is it is tough it's always going to be tough but I think I don't know I think if you can if you can keep fit and if you can keep current I think that's the thing I think if you're an older actor that thinks it should be like it used to be then I think that's that's a hard hill to climb I think if you can be realistic and keep fit keep current and don't I'm hesitating when I say this but I'm going to say anyway don't be grand yeah major major don't be too proud that's the thing because you know sometimes these older characters and I'm and I'm in for these now you know I'm doing these parts and you look at it and if you if you're going through the lines you're going to the scene you think you know I've only got two scenes you can't look like that you have to think what's the quality of this role yeah you know yes okay I'm not leading the show anymore but I've got these lovely I mean take take the wizard in wicked you know which I did for you know I've recently and three fantastic scenes three stroke four fantastic juicy meaty scenes yeah you got a long time to wait yes you're not star of the show but embrace it exactly what you said don't be proud and don't look at well and also not just look at the quality of the quality of the quantity but also look at everything else around it you know is this an amazing cast I'm going to be a part of is this going to bring joy into my life as a performer that I that I wouldn't get if I go no I can't do that I've been a lead and I've done this and I've done that and is the rest of the production really classy really wonderful I'm like I'm gonna I'm gonna please audiences are they going to love what I do and the show are they going to love the show yeah yeah yeah of course um so quality over quantity definitely um I mean you know you can you can understand older actors with masses of experience not wanting to do certain projects of course um you know they've been there I've done that they don't need to do that anymore but um I think you're absolutely right you you look at the meat of it the nub of it and you know that's a man a magnificent scene even if it's just one you know yeah the other point I wanted to talk about is um how do you as a casting director sometimes have to convince producers directors that a certain person is right you know they're a little bit prejudiced about that person because they are seeing them from the past or they're seeing what they've done before but you as a casting director think no they've got something here that you're missing forget what they've done before is that hard for you to sometimes convince them to see this person or use this person it might have been at one point but um I'm fortunate in that I've been doing it a while and I'm I work with direct as more than once and they get, we get to know each other's styles and we get to know each of those foibles and prejudices and all this sort of thing. So I find it much easier to persuade and explain why somebody is better for the part, not better necessarily themselves but better for the role. I find that much easier as I get older, as I get more experience and as I have the relationships and that's a big thing in this industry is relationships with people. If you have that shorthand and that relationship and that trust, I mean when I talk about TV for a second, if you don't have a lot of time in TV and you maybe see six people for a role, for a guest role in a hobby or a casualty or whatever and you'll talk to the director about what they think the part should be and they'll say you know I want somebody with vulnerability or I want somebody who looks like they've been through the mill or all these things that they'll talk about physical points as well as kind of emotional range and I'll go okay fine. So then if take those six people, I'll bring in maybe four that I know really well, fit that brief, can do it, the director will acknowledge that I've hit that brief with those four. Another one, say the fifth, there'll be someone I've never met before, someone that has seems to me to have the qualities that we're looking for but I haven't met them before or I haven't even seen them maybe but I've just looked at their show reel, I've looked at their credits, I've talked to their agent, what have you. In that way that continues to enhance my knowledge and it means I'm not just bringing the same people in all the time so I'm always looking at a new person here and there. The six person I'll bring in will be nothing like the brief at all. I will think maybe this person could handle this in a completely different way from what the director thinks and I'll just bring it in as a completely wild card and you'd be amazed how many times that works. The director will go I just didn't see it like that but actually yeah why not. So beware the wild card and also as an actor be aware that sometimes you might be the wild card and don't question why you're being brought in. You know people come in sometimes and say I'm nothing like this person or I'm far too old or I'm far too young and you think no shush, don't say anything just just be glad you're here and you know bring your uniqueness to this part which is which is what I'm asking for. So now I think that what you've just said that sentence should be on every actor's world just shush, just bring in your uniqueness, that's it and then go for a cup of coffee afterwards. That's going to be my mantra now that's on my wall. Just shush, just shush, stop asking questions. Yeah, just what we do is act as we analyze and we let you know what we do and it doesn't get any easier you do it's just, I know that there's so much to talk about it but one thing I wanted to cause the fact that you're credited with helping to implement a groundbreaking diversity strategy for on screen talent. What led you to that? Was that a push from everybody or was that you personally? Well, it was a joint effort. It was when I was head of casting in the drama series and my boss was Mal Young and we were both passionate about on screen diversity because if you if you don't see you then you don't believe that you can be that but be there and it was a hard climb because I'm getting into I'm getting into territory now so I'm going to have to be a bit careful. Rites don't necessarily, it's better now but writers don't necessarily think about that. They write this script and then it can be up to us. Sometimes parts will be specifically race oriented for various reasons. Sometimes they're not and so they're up to us as creatives in the end result to create that diversity to include that diversity because we want young people to see themselves on screen. We had an instance in we do obviously a lot of procedural things, a lot of cop dramas things like that where I wanted to cast a chief superintendent ultimately as a woman and I was told by various people that I couldn't we couldn't do that because there wasn't one. There was no instance in the country of any of of this rank being a woman and I said well that's all the more reason why we should do it then you know and I don't think it doesn't have to reflect actuality it has to reflect what you're trying to achieve if it's got to be aspirational not just responding to what's going on now so that was kind of the start of it and then again this is controversial but we introduced quotas and we had to provide a report every week saying what percentage of our casts across these drama series were diverse and it worked I'm not sure I mean I then went to a conference where somebody quite high up in the BBC said the BBC have never had quotas and I said I had to say I'm sorry I'm sorry but we did and I don't actually make any apology for it it's got something has to happen has something has to be put in place and it shouldn't need them and we don't want to have them but that was a means to an end and I think it did it went it went up and up and up and it became which was the aim it became organic it became that it got to that point where none of the team needed to even think about it it was just yeah that's what we do well I think people forget a very important thing and it's been pointed out to me a couple of times by actors of colour for instance going back to wicked the current Elphaba is Alexia Cadime and she was my first guest on this podcast series and she said to me she remembers sitting in the audience when she was I think 15 or something watching the show and crying for lots of reasons she loved the show she'll love the music it affected her emotionally but she thought to herself I will never get a chance to play either of those parts because of my colour yeah and there she is and we've got Lucy St. Louis playing Glinda yeah who also sat there years ago thinking I'll never play this part and there they are playing it yeah and nobody questions it nobody should question it and that's when it hits me and I go yeah absolutely great yeah you've now got a chance it's so it's so refreshing and just to think that you know I mean I saw a little clip the other day on can't remember what it was but it was um it was a little girl and um she had cerebral palsy and she was in a wheelchair and she was given a gift and it was a Barbie I think or something but it was a doll in a wheelchair and she just burst into tears because she'd never seen anything like that and that's the heart of it isn't it's it's that that's me me being represented um because you know that then you look at the drama school intake because again we a while ago for many years I was part of something called the NCDT the National Council for Drama Training that became drama UK and it was the body that accredited drama schools doesn't exist anymore sadly um but um there was constant discussions about the diversity within the intake of drama schools and the the answers were well we just don't get the applicants and I was like well then somehow you have to go out and find them you know and this is where it starts from people seeing themselves on the tele or on the and realising that there is a route that there is a place and that they deserve to have that chance and go for it. So, you know, it's much better in drama schools, but not all drama schools. And we have to educate audiences just to be colourblind. Yes. We do. We have to say to audiences, don't analyse what they look like. Just look, watch them. They're playing a role. Get into that. Get active, yeah. You're not. I know that, well, you certainly did. I don't know if you still do it, but didn't you teach professional audition technique for drama skills? Do you still do that? Oh, I still do that. Yeah. No, I do. I mean, I visit a lot of drama schools. I love it. Sometimes I'll, I'll, they'll do mock auditions with me. And we give instant feedback. And sometimes they don't realise that the mock audition starts the minute they walk in the door, not the minute they start singing or whatever. And then sometimes I just do Q&As and just go through many of the things we've talked about, but, but more specifically drilling down into how to market yourself, how to do your CV, what your photo should look like, how to set out your credits. And also just, just how to navigate the industry because it's harder and harder to do that. The industry is, is getting bigger with more opportunities, actually. I mean, if you think of streaming services and Netflix and, you know, all these, it's massive now. So there are lots of opportunities. If you can navigate your way to thinking, that's my niche or that looks good for me. I see that, you know, my, my unique selling point, my USP would be very good in that, in that particular production or whatever. So yeah, no, I still do that. And I absolutely love it. I love talking to new actors and students. So Jane, as we, as we approach the end of this episode, just, just try and give us some, some basic dues and don'ts for auditions, particularly for young actors coming in. There must be some things that you just said, this is what either, I mean, that was interesting when he said, the audition starts when you walk through the door, because that's true, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, one of the biggest things you need to do as an actor, there's two, two things, I would say, there's loads, you could say, but two really key things is, you need to read the room. So think about what's going on in that room, the minute you walk in, what's the atmosphere like? Are you late going in, which might mean that we're pushed the time and a bit stressed? Are we not speaking to each other? Is the panel a little bit, you know, stressed or worried about things? Is the panel sitting back, laughing, having a joke? Does the panel engage, do you engage with the panel if we ask you to? Yes, you do, you chat. If we don't, if we're like, oh, well, we're a bit pressed for time, then you just professionally get on with it. So it's, it's called, it's just reading the room. What's it like in there? How do I, how do I fit into that atmosphere in the best way to shine? The second thing is never forget that you are a professional. You're just a different kind of professional from the ones sitting down the desk. I'm a professional casting director, someone's a director, someone's a producer, someone's a writer, you're a performer. That's the professional route that you have chosen. So you have every right to be there. You are equal to any single person who is sitting there, so-called judging you. Yes, we have the right to give you a job, but you equally have a right to say, no, I don't want to do that job. I didn't like the people I've just met. I don't think I want to be in a room with them again or whatever. That's your power. And I think if you can really embrace that thought, you can approach your auditions with much more confidence and much more comfort really in a way. And also to know that you, that's your job. You know, you may not get the job, but it's your job to try and get the job. And also, I said only two things. I'm now on about four or five, but no audition is ever wasted. I, you know, there'll be lots of actors who can tell you that they've come in for me. They haven't got it maybe two or three times, but I'll stick with them and they will be right for something. So it's never wasted. And don't you think also it's important to remember that that panel, however big or small it is, want you to do well. I think sometimes as actors we walk in thinking they're all hating as well. They're not hating it because you wouldn't be in the room if they hated it. No, they're not. Particularly the casting director because you are an extension of me when you come into a room, you know, I've put my trust in you. And I've said to these people on the rest of the panel, this is a person that I rate that I think could be really good in this job. And so, you know, I'm the one that's really rooting for you. And also remember that I probably had to interview to get the job as well. And the director, the director will have had to interview to get the job. We all have to go through that process as freelancers. And, you know, we're all kind of in it in it together. And as you say, nobody wants anybody to do badly. That's the last thing. And people can see through nerves, can't they? Because we do get nervous as performers. And it's a very nerve-wracking situation or a potentially stressful situation. But the panel, you know that. You know that actor is probably not as relaxed as they will be when they get the job. Sure, but I can see through that. You can, you can, but if it's overwhelming, then it's a bit of a red flag because if somebody is so nervous at the audition stage, when they're allowed to experiment a bit or, you know, to get it a bit wrong and then get it back or whatever, then it does, it does make you worry about the job itself, particularly, particularly in television, which is so quick, you know, you just need to nail it. So yes and no, yes, you can see through the nerves. And sometimes people use nerves to really good effect. And it just really sharpens their performance. And sometimes, so that's the one you can see through. But the nerves that allow the performance to fall apart is the nerves that you need to be a little bit worried about. Because as an actor as a performer, I do kind of expect you to cover that up. Interesting. So you've got to work on that. That's something that you've really got to work on. I'm not getting off of that really. But that's something that the feedback can help you with, because, you know, when I'm doing talks and things, people's actors say, you know, when should I ask for feedback? Should I get feedback every time? And I say, no, not every time. But if if you've been in for like, if you've had six auditions and no recalls, and you know, you know in your heart that you're good at your job, you know, you're a good actor, you've done good work before, but something's going a bit wrong. Then I think it's really important to get feedback at that point, because it could be just one small thing that you're doing at each time that could be easily ironed out. It could just be a slight, a slight attitudinal thing, or maybe, you know, maybe you're not presenting yourself quite in the right way. It might be something as as simple as that, you know, and you haven't got enough Twitter followers. Oh, don't go there, please. No, I know, but that's something else. That's the whole new conversation. Oh, yes, it is, isn't it? Oh, my, oh, my, no, let's not go there. You've been on Tele for a year, so, you know, yeah. So yeah, I mean, feedback is important. And I think, I mean, just just of an Israeli, I think, I think one thing that I feel is a little bit tricky sometimes, is the amount of time you have to wait. It is, it's excruciating, you know, but I understand why sometimes the show is cast in America, so it's got to go to somebody else. If it's tele, it's got to go above, somebody's got to see those final tapes and decide, and it takes time, but that waiting for performers is excruciating sometimes. I know it is. And I do, I do try to that there's a lot, there are lots of different levels when you're going through the cast, you know, you have maybe a first round, then you have the dance call, talking musicals, then you may have a recall with with cover material or with show material, so it can go through. But I will always make a point of telling people that it's not going any further. As soon as we know, it's not going any further. There's no point in making people wait, thinking they might get a recall and they're not going to get one. And also, you know, I mean, something I've done recently has been a long process. So people who are in the mix, people sort of hate that expression, but I can't think of better one, need to be told they're in the mix. Also, not just for you, not just for you. but for us, you know, if if we've got, say, three or four people in the mix for a big lead, we want them all to know that so that if anything else comes up, they'll tell us. Yeah. So, you know, it's good for you to know, but it's also good for us to be kept abreast of availability and stuff. And it's good for performers to know because they can keep that additional that piece or whatever they've learned or whatever they're feeling. In their brains, keep it there because you tend to forget sometimes you walk out the room and then you put it away. But there could be a six week process on that. And the feedback fit. I mean, in terms of when you get to that sort of stage and every people have been in the mix and you've been told you're in the mix and then you're not, then I'll, I'll be able to say, well, you know, what's the feedback and truthfully, the feedback at that point is that there probably is no feedback. If you've got that far, then you've been considered for the part, definitely otherwise you wouldn't have been at that stage. And somebody just pitched to the post, that's it. You know, yeah, the diversity, you're nearly, oh, they're really nice. But you know, one of the auditions I did at the BBC a chap came in and as an actor, I really have a mind and I'd seen him in theatre a lot. And he said, I said, oh, you've been up too recently. And he said, oh, I've, I mean, I'm the nearly man. Oh, I said, well, I'm not heard of that. What, where is that? Anyway, no, I'm the nearly man. I nearly get every job I go in for. Oh, great. When I, if I'm doing interviews or talk or something, I start off with all the shows I go on and I go, I mention all these big, big shows and people go, woo, I'm going to go, yes, those are the shows I didn't get. The shows I didn't do because it's great level here. Jane, the time has just absolutely flown by. I just want to thank you for your honesty and for, and for taking us into your world because it's fascinating, not just for performers, but for people who don't understand what, what you're doing. Yeah. The process of this, it's just absolutely fascinating. We could, we could go on forever. So, massive, thank you. Go on. Go on. I mean, you want to say, I would just going to say that I would like the performers that hopefully listening to this to know that we really, really, really work hard on it in our jobs as, you know, and we do get some stick sometimes, but the casting director is always the last to be, I mean, I've lost count of how many reviews I've read, which have listed, been fantastic reviews, listed lighting director costume sound, you know, choreographer quite rightly. They will then say that the cast is wonderful, but they won't say who the casting director is. And we really, really, really work very hard. And as well as sending out these breakdowns and getting stuff back, which we go through with a fine tooth comb, there's also a great big database in, I'm pointing at my head now, my brain. So, it's not just down to whoever comes at me. I'm checking people out all the time who I've met before or I've seen in something. So, it's a massive mix of collaboration between agents, casting directors, to get the best talent and to make sure that people don't get missed. Yeah, that's such an important thing to say. It really is. People should realize because without you, we don't get in the room, basically, we don't get in the room. Jane, again, massive, thank you. Thanks so much for listening to Backstage Currie. And if you can, please go to actingforothers.co.uk/donate.