You Need Help to Help Her

What you are about to hear is a classic session of where should we begin with Esther Peral. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patience of Esther Peral's. In each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. Support for where should we begin comes from 6-Penny. 6-Penny is reimagining in-home luxury with supremely comfortable, slip-covered furniture for living, dining and sleeping spaces. Plus distinctive tables and accent pieces. And from now to December 1st, you can visit 6penny.com/begin to enjoy 20% of all orders using the Code Gentlesun. That's s-i-x-p-e-n-n-y.com/begin. Code Gentlesun. Support for this show comes from Nordstrom. Oh, what fun! Holiday invites are arriving and Nordstrom has your party fits covered. You'll find head-to-toe looks for every occasion, including styles under $100. Dresses, sets, heels and accessories from Bardot, Princess Polly, Dolce Vita, naked wardrobe, coach and more. Freeze styling help, free shipping and quick order pickup, make it easy. In stores or online, it's time to go shopping at Nordstrom. We don't understand what's happened or how to help her and what parts we even can help her with and what parts she just has to figure out. The specific things that this happened or this happened or this is going on, it's not as important as they need to get a better. I mean, whether that's next week, next month, next year, we just need to get a better. In a family, there are various couples. One, the intimate couple, the spousal couple, but the other is also the parental couple. This couple came in not for marital issues, but for difficulties and challenges that they were having between them and their daughter. She was diagnosed with bipolar and anxiety and depression, PTSD, all the above in the last two years. We haven't told. We don't talk about it with our family. There's maybe two people who know. Like, I can't keep lying. I feel like I'm lying to everybody. I'm lying to family, I'm lying to friends. I couldn't even imagine not doing this with somebody. I could imagine tearing people apart. Easy. Very easy. Yeah. The parents have sought help, but they received help as a couple. And it seemed to me that this couple doesn't need help as a couple. This couple needs help as parents speaking to their daughter. This is where should we begin with Esther Peral? She's gone from a successful, motivated college student on a scholarship to spending 22 hours a day in her room on the computer, talking with friends, but not interacting in the real world. She's really contained herself, maybe partly for preservation. It's a comfortable place for her. She's not going to school. She's not working. She's not interacting with family. She interacts a little bit with us. She's eating, but there's been days when she doesn't eat very well. She's taking medication. She sees therapists. We went from her taking credits and being on the dean's list and traveling internationally with school to this 180 degree change in what she's able to do. As I listen to them describe the voluntary confinement of the daughter in her room for such an extended period of time, two years. I'm reminded of the Japanese phenomenon of Higikomori, where young people withdraw into their rooms, become recluses, disconnect from society, except through the internet of which they are in utter control of a decoration of every detail of the story that they live. We want her to be passionate about something, to be happy and healthy in whatever her future holds. And we're trying to work with her, but we don't understand what's happened or how to help her, and what parts, what parts we even can help her with, and what parts she just has to figure out. You know, we have a really strong marriage. I think every day about the people or doing this alone, I don't know how anybody could do that, and I'm really fortunate to be doing it with somebody that I could talk to and cry too. Who cries more? I do. I cry too. You started before you. It's something I've always done. I have very talented cryer. Tell me something. What support do you both get besides each other? Yeah. We recently, like in the last month, we started to see a couple's counselor who was suggested by our daughter's counselor. What's helpful actually has been able to be in a place where we can talk with somebody who is besides the two of us, who's not a friend or family member. Somebody who is outside of the situation and can listen and make some suggestions, although she doesn't have the answers. But do you have a group of parents? No, we're not. No. I mean, we have parents. No, but a group of parents who have situations around their children, they're adult children, they're that challenging. No. No. And honestly, we haven't been talking about it a lot, so I'm not talking to somebody and somebody says, you know, I know somebody, a friend of mine or my sister-in-law or something like that, we haven't been talking about it. Whenever I work with a family where there is an acute crisis like that and they have not gotten the help they need, I think that for many therapies, there can be a trigger of wanting to have the savior in us that maybe I'll be able to offer something because I experience their disappointment, their depletion, their despair, and I want to jump in, but it's actually the moment where I have to hold back a little bit. Okay, here's what I'm going to suggest. We're going to talk together. I'm going to think out loud, but that doesn't mean I'm right. Okay, the last thing I'm going to do is barge in as if I have answers. I don't, but I have some ideas sometimes of, or at least I ask questions out loud and then we can kind of like, for example, this idea that you think you are protecting her by colluding with her in the withdrawal from the world because you are withdrawing from the world as well. You're doing a parallel process. She's not talking, you're not talking. She's hiding, you're hiding. So you're trapped in her approach and there is no help that can come in. I understand. I think that's pretty well summed it up. You need help to help her. You understand, you need the input so that you can then help her. The idea that you are protecting her by colluding in the same silence as her and by withdrawing from the world like her is creating shame for you. Isolation and I'm not sure it's helping her. Isolation only works when you have contagious disease for pneumonia. She does not have a contagious disease. You need the presence of others and if you go into the silence, it only adds to the shame and to the lying and to the feeling that you are more and more removed from the world. And so now it's happening to her and now it's happening to the parents too. Is there an alternative? Yes, the alternative is, I don't have a clue what the diagnosis is but there's too many labels. What we know is you have a girl who was vivacious, talented, motivated but with enormous pressure on herself and wanted to do well. It may not have known to say this is too much or I don't want to do as much or this is a little too hard for me and fell apart and as a result is retreating but not completely. The beautiful internet allows her to type away for 14 hours a day and she's talking about something with somebody and for all we know she may be talking with a group of other kids like her because there are lots of them who are also locked up in their rooms. So that's very good and I would continue to encourage her connecting with those people but so do you need to connect with the people because if you don't get support you won't be able to help her and you don't need support so much as a couple. You need support actually as parents of a child who broke down in the midst of thriving and needs to rebuild herself, slowly step-step and it happens to the brightest of them and sometimes they saw it coming, they felt something but they didn't want to say they don't want to disappoint, they don't want to disappoint the parents, everybody's riding on them, there is pride of all what she's accomplishing and so there's the sense of I'm letting everybody else down, let alone myself. Am I describing her somewhat? Yeah, the labels to me are important but they don't describe anything, they don't describe the experience, they'll just give you a framework, I need to know her experience and that means I want to help you have conversations with her. Who did you talk to today? What are you discussing? Try to re-engage in a normal conversation that is anything but we're trying to get you to be better. She talks to both of you or only one of you. She decided recently that she doesn't want to have a mother-daughter relationship, not sure what relationship she wants but she called me by my first name the other day instead of mom. I didn't, I just let it go, I didn't react to it. If that helps, I'll take it. Yes, but inside it was like I, yeah well I can think maybe down the road it'll turn around, you know, I can look forward enough to see that. Do friends visit her? Nobody comes to see her. No, she's really, as far as I know, like you know her friends were trying to reach out for, you know, quite a while but I think she just kind of blew them off or whatever over time. So it's been several months and she's seen any friends face to face. Even family friends, who she's friends with the children, the last time we got together it was really hard push getting her to come out of her room and she did. Well, she told me she would but she told me she would not speak to me after that. I think to both of us. She was angry because they're literally at her door waiting to go to a restaurant and she wouldn't, she had to cover it over her head and just wasn't going to come out. So I think she got mad because I took the covers off her head or something and so she came out and interacted. We went out to eat. We got in the car after dinner. We got right after dinner. We got back into our car and things. It wasn't your meal good or you know just a small talk and she didn't answer and I thought oh she's doing exactly what she said she was going to do. Did you congratulate her for her determination? No, I started crying. But that would have been a good answer. That would have been a great answer. I love that you haven't lost your spirit. You always wish strong mind it and that is still there. I'll take it. Okay. What do you think? I agree. Yeah, we haven't done that. I don't understand the anger that comes out and I think she will admit that she's just very angry at her. Mom is angry at daughter or daughter? No, no, no, no, no, no. I think there's there's just very deep the way this whole thing came out with you know I really don't want a really a mother-daughter relationship when she told me and I said to her I said you know I you have to just you can't just not you know say that and not carry through and and tell her and then tell her why right now. When you said you told you daughter yes to tell mom why she doesn't want to have a relationship. Right. Communicated somehow where there's a continual flow so you get all of it out so that we can understand it. The question is very you seem to have very strong feelings about mom and you seem to have given this a lot of thought because you wouldn't be arriving at such a conclusion. What's been on your mind? That way you're not telling her to do anything yet and I wouldn't say talk to mom. You wouldn't? No. No, if I would in this moment if you're the one she can she's willing to speak this too you can go tell mom or you don't go tell mom the pet does you know that's a separate thing but the first thing I would just say tell me. One of the things that emerges is that the father is triangulated. He is caught in a triangle between his wife and his daughter and on occasion the daughter wants to speak to mom by speaking to that and at times that needs to be redirected and it is accurate for that to say this isn't belong to me tell mom directly but other times when daughter says I'm having struggles with my mom I don't want my mom to be my mom she's not the mom I want her to be those kind of things I think the opportunity is for him to simply say how did you get to that conclusion that's such a painful conclusion what's going on for you and not try to direct her in fact just offer the ear and offer the opportunity for her to be in conversation with them rather than just in conversation with her inner depression you know the question that often will emerge after that is is the parent who is having those private conversations with their child meant to keep this for themselves or is this actually meant to become a conversation that is then relegated to the other parents and I think it really varies in this instance I don't think there is a secret the daughter wants the mother to know how she feels the daughter doesn't feel she can tell the mother directly the daughter uses the father to be her mouthpiece and her messenger to the mother we have to take a brief break stay with us entrepreneur is my new home on substack for anyone who wants to live love and work with more connection confidence imagination and playfulness I bring to you the combination of clinical insight with cultural commentary and community dialogue what I want to do is kick off a collective exploration of the intricacies of our relationships at this moment please join me on substack where I'll be writing to you weekly hosting live streams with other creators and for my paid subscribers offering community discussion forums to strengthen our relationships and connections to one another paying members will also get at free episodes of my podcast where should we begin and all of our exclusive office hours bonus episodes I invite you to sign up and become a member either free or paid to my entrepreneur community at esterparelle.substack.com this week on net worth and chill I'm tackling the topic that stresses everyone out this time of year how to survive the holidays without destroying your bank account from gift giving guilt to those limited edition holiday temptations I'm breaking down practical strategies to save your wallet while still showing up for the people you love I'll share real numbers on how much the average person overspends during the season smart swaps that don't feel cheap and how to set boundaries without being the wrench plus I'm exposing the marketing tactics designed to make you panic by and revealing the framework for creating a holiday budget that actually works get ready for an honest conversation about staying financially sane during the most expensive time of the year listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com/yourrichbf what's the connection between the suffrage movement and prohibition you know they're thinking was hey one way to protect our rights to live and have a family and protect our children from violence would be to outlaw alcohol it's not a crazy idea given there's nothing else they can do they can't vote they can't charge their husbands with primes I'm Preet Bharara and this week Harvard historian Jill LePore joins me to discuss her new book on the US Constitution and the movements that shaped it in ways we've forgotten the episode is out now search and follow stay tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts I think there is often a unique power to the same sex between parent and child father son mother daughter there's something about the identification there not always but you know she was living out your dream she was living out her dream too but it was your dream as well and the turmoil about letting you down I don't want to do it but I also let you down your reaction to her which is part helplessness and part rage because of how helpless you feel rage is often the flip side of helplessness and if I cut you off then I cut off my guilt toward you my feeling of how much I let you down and my resentment for the pressure that I feel to please you because I always was the great daughter that pleased you and I don't know how to get from under this whole thing it's a jumble yeah I could see I could see how that could be that there could be something to that and why why wouldn't she have the same reaction to me because you are a different person because maybe you're not disappointed in the same way because maybe she thinks you would love her no matter what she doesn't have to please you in the same way because I don't know you tell me hmm I have no idea no um she's adopted and we thought maybe that she was having that a conflict with that and related to self-esteem and you know who she is and there's been a few things that happened in her high school time that she talked to us about one she looks different than all the like most of the other kids in her school and so I think she had self-esteem issues because kids sometimes teased her she knew because she was different she was born in South Korea and we went to she went to a school that was mostly Caucasian kids thinking at the time it seemed like the right right place for us but you look back on it and go it's just having no diversity at all just was not good not good you know and within our family we accepted and the diversity wasn't even there you just have family adopted no you know I've always said our son was born through a pregnancy that that I carried she was born you know on the other side of the world they're both miracles like it's just and we've always treated both of our children that they're just miracles and this was how our this is our family I mean just it is and we forgot that other people don't see that and also just her being adopted you know you know kids are cruel she was told she was a mistake but we didn't know this told afterwards she held this kind of stuff in and then I don't think either of those two things were the cause of this but I think she internalized a lot of things over time that we weren't aware of it's exactly what you say when things go well you think it's the right place when things don't go well you start to question all kinds of decisions you made with the purest intention the parents so wanted their daughter to be integrated and not to feel any different that in the end she couldn't be who she was which de facto was different at least racially different and they've now realized that by putting her in an all-white environment she was isolated bullied taunted and that she couldn't come and talk about it with them and so a question that we do have to ask ourselves is when a child doesn't come home to say I've been bullied at school we do need to ask is there something in the dynamic in the environment at home that silence is the child it is where it is now and she has been sharing all kinds of difficulty that she had and sometimes there's not much to say but just to hug her and just to say I'm so sorry I didn't know that you were hurting so badly I wish you had been able to come and tell me sooner but I'm here now and I'm so glad I can hear you tell me because what happens now is that you're so scared that you're becoming paralyzed and that has the strange effect sometimes of sending the message to the kid I was right not to tell because you can't handle it because you become so upset when I tell you something that now I have to deal with the fact that you're upset rather than you deal with the fact that I'm upset and what she's trying to say when she says I don't want to talk to mom you know does this that would be my question is it because you don't feel that you can legitimately be her child that she thinks that when we are down we have crazy thoughts crazy in the sense that we put ourselves down we don't think we're legitimate we don't think we deserve and then I guess maybe because then she's so isolated and she's talking with people who aren't part of our we don't know they don't know us I think possibly she's confirming whatever she's thinking could really yeah a terrible best or that she doesn't deserve you that you're not really her mother is what she's trying to say but not because you haven't been a good mother but because she doesn't feel legitimate this is not a statement about you as much as a statement about her and the hardest thing is to keep that in mind so that you don't feel so upset that you can't be there for her right and that's why you need support this is super hard to do it's easy to say for me but it's really hard to do and we need in those moments help support but that's what will make it different not waiting and hoping that at some point it will get better that that is not exactly how it works yeah I think we've been focusing on that chemistry that you know that you've been focusing on the brain and then focusing on the life yeah which is because I think it seems that you know her doctor is focusing just on the chemistry and doesn't there's no counseling so that's medicine then she talks to somebody you know to help her work things through and I've felt this over time because we thought at first you go to a doctor you get fixed you know your children are sick you wear sick you know you go to the doctor they tell you to do this and this and you eventually get better this isn't a world I know like I know about like totally not and I feel inadequate about not knowing more about it and so I think we were focusing on on the illness you know she got a diagnosis and you get a medicine and you talk to somebody and yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and with you just not working for me this is a family issue a family is made up of interdependent parts and some of the parts are the parents and the grandparents and the children but they're all interconnect and when one of the parts when one of the members changes their role because they are sick because they have a breakdown because something is knowing at them because they're struggling anything the whole system adapts has to change to make up for this to respond to this but the isolation is also part of how the system is reorganizing you know for example if she's depressed I have no idea but if she's depressed one of the things that happens when we're depressed and we don't feel like we can get ourselves out of our own whole is that everybody around us tries to get us out of our whole and they come up with one idea after another why don't you do this why don't you do that and the only power we have is to say no and so we defeat everybody so there's very interesting dynamic occurs in which I feel powerless because I'm down and I've checked out from all the things that used to be my life but every time you'd say do something I say no and in the end you feel as defeated as her so now we create a loop of helplessness you see how do you see this one you're both checking events and you're rolling you like I know this all too well yes you know it's a bizarre thing the person who is the most down in the end has all the power because they have the power to disempower everybody else's fantastic ideas and make them feel as helpless as them and so we all end up in the same spot yeah it just needs music the choreography said that is one of the things that family therapy wants to help you with or would help you with how how you get stepped out of the why don't you do this why don't you do that that pressure has to go not because it's not a great motivation but because it's not happening this way right I understand that that that you're struggling rather than here's what you can do to stop the struggle you know how do I join her differently so any situation where she can address you and speak and there is actually another person so that you don't have to be moderating each other like that could be very helpful okay and that you say to her Duke we have challenges there's some things between all of us that this is a great opportunity I think you have really highlighted that you know despite our best efforts and everything there's some things between us that that seem to have that are causing you great pain and that we need to address all together and we can handle it and we're going to go find a place where we can safely talk as long as she doesn't exercise that ultimate power again and say no you'll still go alone you'll get good coaching and it may take three four sessions of you going alone until you find a right way of bringing her that's been done okay that's been done okay there's a good family therapist know to work with kids who don't want to show up teenagers or school up by the children or I mean you know to you she's feels like she's in you know this unmovable thing but she she may I I don't know I'm just but they also give you the right frame of they analyze with you more you know they learn from you more about your daughter so that they have a good idea of how you can present it to her in a way that fits what is going on to say to her you know you've said some very important things here about mom about us and I think we should we need to listen to you because you've been trying to tell us quite a few things and I don't know that we've been as attentive as we could be and so we have chosen a framework where somebody's going to help us listen to you when I'm conveying to the parents is that without having a have a met the daughter I have a sense this daughter has been trying to say something to the parents and I have a sense that she will welcome a different response from her parents towards her I like that okay I like to understand it's a bit and it's true that's very different from we have found a person who's going to help you get back on track right now the back on track is us not feeling that every slide decision is become an existential decision if I say come for breakfast am I keeping her alive or am I killing her you know do I continue to treat her like she still is the girl I knew and this is the family we are right or is everything out of normality now and I have to forego everything I build and stood for and that feels so wrong to me but I don't yeah I don't know as she been suicidal yes yeah in the spring attempt yeah you call the ambulance and call me home from work and so she was in hospital for a few days um she said that she did that because of me I think she was really mad at me that's I wasn't part of the conversation that morning and I think that conversation really angered her or maybe not anger is not the right word pressure on it whatever that morning was just another morning of more of the same get a job to something we need a passion what's the matter mom trying to prop do to her up with the best intention but completely ineffective and that morning the daughter said get off my back I can't do it I won't do it I don't want to do it enough is enough we are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about we need to take a brief break so stay with us support for the show comes from a new york magazines the strategist the strategist helps people who want to shop the internet smartly its editors are reporters testers and obsessives you can think of them as your shopaholic friends who carry equally about function value innovation and good taste and their new feature the gift scout takes the best of their reporting and recommendations and uses it to surface gives for the most hard to shop for people on your list all you have to do is type in the description of that person like your parent who swear they don't want anything or your brother-in-law who's a tech junkie or your niece with sweet tooth and the gift scout was scanned through all of the products they written about and come up with some relevant suggestions the more specific you make your request the better even down to the age range every single product you'll see is something they written about so you can be confident that your gift has a strategist still of approval visit the strategist.com/gifscout to try it out yourself I don't know I never would have thought she would have done that tried to do that we don't think it was plain not that it matters I guess but we didn't think it was something that she gave a whole lot of thought about but did it in the moment we haven't we haven't really processed any of that either no or just have had time to together or with her either at all at all it feels overwhelming I don't even want to think about it I hope she never does that again and I think what we've realized not realized but like we can't control that if somebody wants to do that they're going to find a way because we are trying to like keep everything like not have anything out I mean and then you realize you can't that's right that's my head saying that not my heart you hurt your drum then put yourself in front of the bus right but we own our lives kind of want her to be passionate about something so bad she's so talented she loves music she plays instruments she has taught herself languages she's artistic and paints and cooks she's smart and I just like I've just wanted to fall in love with one of them and do it love it be passionate just see all the good in life and we can't do that for her what's happening to you and she speaks like this it's it's just been tough same more I mean we we've been a few words but we've done all this together so I don't think you know it's not easier for one of us I guess I don't know how we would do this without having somebody that we can go through this with I don't I don't I couldn't even imagine not doing this with somebody I could imagine tearing people apart easy very easy yeah do you have close friends uh huh and they still and you have not talked with them I've talked with two close friends you have got to this is like a medical recommendation going to go home with a prescription for friends yes friends or family but other you you can't keep this right it's not an embarrassment it's not a shame it's not a it's it's not going to determine what's going to happen to her but it's going to deal with you not creating a parallel life in which you end up doing what she's doing without a diagnosis I just don't have I don't have that kind of a network not that I would I mean I would mind maybe a prescription would help I'm assuming that your girlfriends are people that you also see with the partners well I don't want to burden them yeah and part of it is again it's not particularly their business but it but it's also what I talk about it if somebody came to you and said we're struggling with a situation would you feel burdened or would you feel honored that it trusted you I get that no I would feel honored I get that part but I guess what I'm saying is I wouldn't want to you know get together on a Saturday night to go out to dinner we're not talking about this becoming the subject of every gathering I just want you to have the opportunity of people saying how are you do you need anything you don't want to feel like you live with a secret life is not lived alone and these kind of situations you don't have to confront alone you're not there to talk about her you just said to say I'm going to something really difficult the way you're the way that we're approaching it and here with it being more holistic rather than focused on a particular illness it really seems to make sense to look at it as a family dynamic not as a person who has an illness and that that's the cause of things you know and because we don't have control over that but we can work on the family dynamic we do have control over that and so to to realize the parts that are within our grasp that's like if that has the ability to have an effect where we've been trying to have an effect in a way that we're not effective the idea of it being a conversation where we talk about the experience that we're having with our family or friends I think we've really gotten to a point or I've gotten to a point where like I can't keep lying I feel like I'm lying to everybody want a family of mine to friends and I'm like I just can't do this anymore I'm not somebody who lies but it's not just that it's that you're pretending that life is normal as usual and that's what she feels she did for all those years she feels that she's been lying that's what she's telling you and without knowing it you're doing the same thing now that's the parallel life as well right that really sucks I never thought of that I didn't until now either in the moment that the mother realizes the impact of her lying she also instantly understands the lying that her daughter has been struggling with and maybe for the first time she actually understands her daughter in a way that she has not before that the daughter has been trying to get her to and we are connecting some very important dots so she got to the point where she just couldn't do it anymore yep I'm not going I can't do this anymore but I just heard it with you and I could see how that makes it worse because you know every time like something comes out of my mouth I'm saying it's not mouse and to myself and why you deserve all the support you need yeah both of you mean I was saying so obvious though but I think I was just so enough so enough if I am in the weeds I'm as blind as you understand something this is not because of who you are this is because when we are drawn in a vortex our vision shrinks it's easy for me to see I'm not in it but if I was in my own you'd be the visionary thank you for that Jen I mean that I completely mean that I was and I probably know is very skeptical of coming I didn't really think anyone could help I think you have oh yeah first of all I highly respect you being skeptical and coming I always respect the skeptics more the others it's easy you know you always want to ask the others if they would go to something that they are skeptical about and now tell me how I was helpful well I think you know we we've been so focused on what can we do to help her illness that we didn't really see that how we're reacting to her and her illness is making it worse it makes a lot of sense when you see it from the outside you know when you just step back for a minute and go you know of course you know you should we should have seen it two years ago but when you see it it's clear and what is it you see well I think we don't have control over her illness we do have control over our actions and how we react to her illness so the best way that we can help her is to I don't mean to say it sounds be more normal but we should be more normal and find ways for us all to communicate what's going on with her so that we can deal with it as opposed to just trying to deal with something we have no control over. When mom speaks of the holistic view the way I would define it is this I am a family therapist I think systemically I think about problems in context problems in an ecology not just what causes them but what maintains them how is the relationship system how is the family organized around the problem and by having kept the focus so narrowly onto the daughter and on her mental health diagnosis the entire family relationship system was left out of the equation and yet the resources that the family can bring to helping the daughter were all in that relational system and so I tried to tap into the natural healing resources that are available in the family not just the medication. You just heard a classic session of where should we begin with Esther Perrell we are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network and partnership with New York magazine in the cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast for the transcripts or show notes on each episode or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter go to astereparell.com. Astere Perrell is the author of mating and captivity in the state of affairs. She also created a game of stories called where should we begin? For details go to her website astereparell.com