‘You Can See Everything’ Mania and Best Picture Power Rankings. Plus: ‘Whalefall,’ ‘Sense and Sensibility,’ and Kyle MacLachlan!

I'm Sean Finese and this is the Big Picture Conversation show about the sensibility of Wales. Today on the show we are making sense of a wild weekend at the movies including the release of several Oscar contenders, some mainstream hits, and some journeys into our movie-loving past. We're talking about the new adaptation of Jane Austen's sense and sensibility and also Whalefall, a literary adaptation of a different sort. We'll also be taking our monthly stock of the Best Picture Power Rankings, account for the surge by a couple of new movies including You Can See Everything, and start crossing off some prospective contenders. Later in this episode, I'll be joined by legendary actor Kyle McLaughlin for a new series I'm calling One Year. Kyle has been talking about his life after publishing a new memoir called Fictional Cells, so I thought we should zero in on that magical period between 1985 and 1986, 40 years later, when he made Blue Velvet with the late great David Lynch. Kyle and I talked about so many details of his life as a young actor, the set of that extraordinary movie, his relationships with Lynch, Laura Dern, Dennis Hopper, and more. Long-time listeners know how much I love Blue Velvet and McLaughlin and Lynch's collaborations, so this was very special. Please stick around for it. But first, some movie news right after this. You think these intros are getting longer? And that one was particularly long, I was honestly checking my text, I'm sorry, but you did a good job. Thank you. Yeah. Did you notice that you started like 2X in your own voice? I try to do that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, unfortunately, the one thing that Billy Evans and I have in common is we listen to podcasts fast, and I keep a moment. So, a lot of news, box office street fighter, you saw it, you say what? Yeah. I didn't see it. Yeah. So funny. I've not had this experience before where a movie comes in at number one, it's a big new wide release. Uh-huh. And not only are we not talking about it today on the show, but I feel like it isn't really not a thing that happened. Yeah. I did see it. Did you have a nice time? A big speck. Okay. I'll say so. You were looking forward to it. I was. I was. And you've programmed another episode with, to talk about it and to talk about your passions. Well. That's true. Yeah. Later this week on the show we will talk about Best Horror Movies of the Year with CR, and we'll talk about street fighter with Shay Serrana, which will be fun. But um, street fighter made 30 million, which I think is maybe like a little bit of a disappointment. Okay. And maybe some of our video game adaptation dreams have been slightly diminished, you know. Hour doing a lot of work there. Sure. Resident Evil worked. Yeah. A little combat tune. Not so much street fighter, not so much next year, Legend of Zelda. We'll see what happens. Uh-huh. Uh, the big story of the movies this weekend was you can see everything. Absolutely. It made 15 million dollars on less than 900 screens in the US. Many international listeners of this show, very angry with the lack of release of that film. And I completely understand that feeling. I'm very sorry that you're not able to see the film if you don't live in the US. Yeah. Uh, this is the biggest non music documentary at the box office since Fahrenheit 9/11 in 2004. It's, uh, had more than 2000 sellouts across the country. Mm-hmm. And I was at the AMC Burbank 16 last night for a 640 screening of sense and sensibility. Yes. And you would think that Taylor Swift was playing a concert at the AMC Burbank. It was mobbed, mobbed, the busiest I've ever seen that movie theater. Now, there's a lot of reasons for that. There are a lot of new movies. Yes. And that is where all of the cinephiles meet. I was there Saturday morning to see Whalefall and ran into several friends of the podcast who are also there, saying they can feel there. And my wife on Saturday afternoon, solvable and negra there, like, well, there are, so there's a real mix at that theater in particular, which I feel like is like the hive mind in L.A. Yeah. You know, the multiplex cinephile. But it, it reestablished, re-encouraged this like, man, we are cooking with movies right now. Not every movie is good. Yeah. But the audience is really, really present. If you, if you give them a chance to see the movies, like, so what do you make of this whole thing, though, that you can see everything, success, street fighter, whatever else is going on right now? It is a very exciting time to be talking about movies with people for a living that feels great. I think I spent 10% of my weekend investigating with people over text messages, our feelings about how guilty or innocent Elizabeth Holmes may or may not be, which just, you know, which goes to show you how many people went, saw this movie that it reignited, not just movie going, but like a cultural investigation, it is a moment, if you will. And it's pretty remarkable. I think it's a testament to Nathan Fielder, to A24 for understanding what they had, allowing what they had to flourish and then also knowing how to market it. But some of it is a perfect storm. You know, I do think the Elizabeth Holmes of it all is, uh, goes outside of movies. And so a lot of people came in who, you know, had opinions or had ideas or wanted to relitigate things and that's savvy. But street fighter, I, I'm sorry that you're not, you didn't have as much fun as you wanted. Yeah. I'm working on a newsletter column that's called somebody take my childhood away from me before it's too late. Yeah. Because there's something going on at the moment that is problematic. But you can see everything is, is fascinating and wonderful. And, you know, we've been in a really, a real rut, kind of broadly, culturally with documentary, especially at the box office since COVID. And there was a period there, I want to say between 2010 and 2018 when docs could do well. There was a stretch. You know, I remember movies like Three Identical Strangers and, um, was it Apollo 11? Like there were, there were a handful of films. And then Mr. Rodgers, the documentary, Mr. Rodgers documentary or the Maryl Heller. Yeah. So that, that, I don't know that this necessarily kicks that back off, but there was something else in the news that I think is kind of fascinating, operating opposite this vibe at the multiplex, which is that there was this huge Netflix shakeup over the last week or so. Last Wednesday, they had a huge layoffs, um, more than a thousand people lost their jobs, which is very sad. And then Bill Bajaria, who is the chief content officer at Netflix, was fired, um, quite surprisingly apparently, according to her. And then over the weekend, the head of film at the company, Dan Lynn, was also fired. Right. So this is a pretty dramatic change. You know, there's a lot of business analysis reasons for why this is the case. I encourage people to check out the town. I'm sure now we'll be spending a lot of time on it with Lucas today. But, um, a lot's been going on in, I think, the perception of Netflix. And you could feel it during the attempt to acquire Warner Brothers. Yes. Where even though people here have really mixed to sometimes very negative feelings about David Ellison, I never got the sense that people were really rooting for Netflix to get Warner Brothers, which even though the people who work at Warner Brothers, generally my experience are very nice. And I, it felt like, like, the worm had kind of turned and a lot of this, like, we're back movie stuff was related to this. This is very much through our personal, um, this is very much my personal day. But like that coupled with, it's been a very long time since Netflix has had a really buzzy film or TV show. And so a lot of that in the culture, manifesting, and, you know, the engagement is not as up as it should be. The subscribers are not up as they should be. Right. Like, whatever Netflix is status is culturally, it seems to have shifted a lot in the last few years. Yes. So this, I think, has been understood by everybody and not just the business people as, um, Bella Bajaria, taking the fall for the, the business, um, of Netflix for the last six months. And really, since they tried to acquire Warner Brothers, stock has been down. It's been going way down. We talked at the time about how there's just, uh, kind of a natural ceiling to how many users Netflix can have, and they are, they're stressed about YouTube, they're stressed about subscribers in general, like, their business model is built, like most of capitalism on just keep growing, keep growing, keep growing, and how much more can you grow? So they, they hit a point where they're not growing as much as they should have. And you got to show your shareholders that you're going to do something. And so this is like how corporations work. So it's Bella Bajaria. And, and then seemingly a lot of her regime, Dan Lin is out, um, not as much on the TV side yet. Not as much on this. Yeah. The film team has clearly been dismantled quite a bit. Um, you know, we can talk about who's replacing them soon, right? But, um, the Dan Lin thing is really interesting to me because like the writing to me has been on the wall about this for about six months. There was a piece in June in the New York Times, a profile of Lin that was clearly like set up to be a, a kind of puffy, like, here's our new, here's Scott Steuers replacement. Right. That was like pretty savage. And they could like hardly get any major filmmaker to come on the record and talk about him or his work with the company. And he was very forthright about not want, not, not worrying about working with filmmakers who wanted the atrical that like that there was something, and you know, everything that's transpired since that piece indicates the opposite. Um, and you know, David Fincher has since decided to leave after his contract is up with Netflix after 10 years there, no bomb back is leaving, um, the, yeah, even the identity of the movies that they're programming is like we're, it's like strictly the kind of like mid-tier streaming programmer kind of thing. Uh, most of the big Oscar contenders of the studio this year are pretty much just acquisitions, you know, LeBola Negra and click those are really good movies, but they're, it's not, we're not in the days of the Irishman, you know, um, yeah, you're not in the days of Scott Steuers are having relationships with all of the great, uh, the talent and the directors that we love so much and being able to just throw endless amounts of money at them. - Yeah. - To do whatever they want. I mean, the other anecdote from that, New York Times piece about Dan Lynn was about how he volunteered that he invited Charlize Theron to have lunch at the Netflix canteen and that if you don't want to have lunch, you know, at the Netflix lunch table, then it's probably not the right movie studio for you, which, okay. - Yeah, not, not, he's not come off well in that piece at all. And so now he's out. And so the speculation is ramped up pretty considerably that Mike DeLuke and Pam Abdy would be a contender for that job. I'm not sure if that really makes sense based on - Yeah. - How things played out at Warner Brothers and what their track record is, which is to say creatively very interesting at times, but if there is a sense of more spend-thrift in the film department, maybe it's not Mike and Pam's time, I don't know. I heard another name over the weekend that I won't repeat 'cause it's just rank speculation, but then I thought was kind of fascinating. And so we'll see if that one plays out. And if it happens - Uh-huh. - I'll say that was the name that I heard on the show. And if it doesn't happen, then I won't say it. - That's exciting. - But Peter Rice was hired to replace Bella Bajaria. And this is fascinating to me. - Yeah. - 'Cause Peter Rice, in 2022, he's a very seasoned executive. In 2022, he was fired by Bob Chapeck from the Disney Corporation. And the scuttle button on why he was fired is like, Peter Rice is kind of too good. And like, he's gonna, he's making Bob Chapeck look bad. And I don't know if that's actually the case, but Peter Rice, long time time television and film executive he ran searchlight for a while, a British guy who's known for having very good taste. - Sure. - That's kind of his rep is like, he's very aridite. And you don't hear that about executives as much, 'cause they have like hard jobs, they've done shitty decisions that are about money. And it's not as much about what you're taste. - And also often their mandate is to like issue taste in favor of making quote unquote gourmet cheeseburgers and making as, you know, and getting stuff. And so, you know, Bella Bajaria's mandate was grow, grow, grow, grow and get as much stuff on the platform, including shows you may or may not be watching right now. So, which, you know, we have to sort of mention. So, it is a market signal that they are at least, well, I don't know, maybe it's not. Maybe Peter Rice is just gonna be like, hey, and now I'm really into lifetime movies, but on Netflix. - Right, the floor is lava. I agree. - I guess we don't know, but the interpretation of the choice is like, oh, so you guys are, this is like a retrenchment. - I'm very curious to find out. Peter Rice, after he was fired from Disney, he went on to produce films for that five year, for your period. And the movies that he produced were 28 years later, Saturday night, Warfare, Misty Green, and the forthcoming Elden Ring adaptation for a 24. Whether you like those movies or not, I think gives you a little bit of perspective on the kinds of projects he likes to be involved in. - In theory, this is good news to me, just in terms of the quality of the programming that we're gonna get. That doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna work out. - Yeah. - And I think what Netflix is culturally is a little bit up in the air right now. It's obviously still huge and very successful, but whether or not it can evolve from the station that it's been in. The thing that I thought about when I saw the bill of a majority of us fired was a lot of people who signed up for Netflix in the early days, signed up for stuff like House of Cards and Oranges, the New Black. And that's not really the reputation of Netflix programming anymore. It doesn't mean they can't go back to that. It's a lot of different things now. You know, it's sports and live events and podcasts, as you say, and lots of different kinds of television programming kind of up and down the scale. And a lot of movies and still a lot of licensed stuff too, but it's so big that the goal to make it all of TV, now it feels to me like it's maybe not comparable. And so maybe the rice higher is more like, we do need the Queen's Gambit. And we do need adolescence. And we do need some of this kind of stuff. This like, you know, his experience with like FX and that kind of programming. Well, or we did need Casey boys and we did not get him because we did not by Warner Brothers. And so now we're putting in this position. And I do feel if they are kind of reorienting to just try to compete with the new superpower that is whatever it's going to be called. - Skydance. - Yeah, that's good. You learned it. Well, if they view Casey boys as the competition as opposed to David Ellison, then maybe that's taste wise. That's better than nothing. If we're orienting around that. - Yeah, it means there will certainly be more competition in that space. I mean, the other thing about that is that, you know, at the Emmys this year, Netflix didn't perform as well as it has historically, despite having lots and lots of shows. And Apple is also really insurgent in that space in terms of taste and high quality projects with well-known people. So you put the Ellison Mega Machine and then Apple kind of holding the place that HBO used to have. - Yeah. - And then again, Netflix is in kind of this awkward position. So we'll see what happens. We'll see who gets hired in the head of film job. You know, I don't know why I care so much about this stuff, but I do. Like I think it's all, it's kind of important to the history of film who gets to make the calls. So maybe that's why I think about it so much. - It is also that Netflix for a while, especially when Scott Stuber was there and had unlimited resources. They made good movies. - They made a lot of good movies. - Great movies. They made, you know, marriage story. Just one of my favorite movies. And now, no, Bobback has left. And so it would be nice if they were making good movies again, you know, I just, I'm pro good movies. - Yeah, same. But we share that. The other news that happened right after we finished recording on Thursday that is certainly worth noting is that Steven Soderberg is taking over principal photography on the Batman Part II from Mount Reeves. Mount Reeves has been dealing with a personal issue for some time. It's one of the reasons why clearly the film has been delayed. Reeves did note on X just to be clear, I am not leaving the Batman Part II. I am profoundly grateful to Steven for coming to my aid during this challenging time to help me finish principal photography. Thank you to all for your concern and well wishes. Still, as just kind of a movie business story, there's something fascinating about someone like Soderberg who has so much particular point of view and style, but who's so interested in other people's craft. - Right. And also filmmaking is an exercise and a challenge to him. And I can, I don't know the man, but I have spent a lot of time thinking about him and I can see the appeal of, okay, like here is the problem set. And here is what I have to solve. And I need to have a look just like this and I'm gonna do XYZ and I think it's a different type of project for him. And Soderberg likes to work. You read those diaries and he's editing same day and watching fully cut features within days. So I get it. I think it's cool. - Yeah, I think I would encourage people if they haven't before, you know, there's of course the legendary kind of black and white recut of Raiders of the Lost Ark that he did. And there's also a great commentary for who's afraid of Virginia Woolf that he did with Mike Nichols on the Blu-ray. That, those are both really interesting examples of showing the way that he's interested in the mechanics of movies. And so the idea of somebody like Reeves who, you know, has a pretty defined style, especially that first Batman movie, like has a real look and feel. So capturing that effectively, capturing the right, like performance style from the actors, all of that is probably appealing to him creatively. And obviously he's helping his friend too in a very troubled time. But yeah, this is just one of those things where, you know, I guess authors have had their books finished, you know, in the past, there's been the kind of posthumous completions of certain kinds of stories. But in the movie business, there's not a ton of examples where sometimes a person is fired, you know, like Richard Donner was fired off of Superman too. And Lester came in to finish the movie. But I don't know if this is just an interesting turn of the wheel in the movie story. Batman, too, you in? - Yeah. - Okay. - So the first one ends with the Joker? - Yeah, but I don't think he's gonna be a part of this one. - Okay. - I think this is more of a Harvey Dent two-faced movie, Sebastian Stan. - Ah, okay. - Yeah. And Sebastian Stan said, he compared it favorably to the Godfather when he spoke about the movie. So, - Okay. - Yeah. - Jackie, you think it's gonna be like the Godfather, too? - It's gonna live up to it fully. - Okay, great. - Godfather for. - I'm not gonna go. - You've gotten any calls? - I'm available. - Yeah. - I'm available to speaking of channeling Mario Puzzo. I can do it. I hand up. Let's talk about some films. - Okay. - We saw some films. - We did. - Whalefall, let's start with Whalefall. - Yes. - We were so excited about Whalefall. - Yeah. - It's directed by Brian Duffield. It's written by Duffield and Daniel Kraus. It's based on Kraus's novel. That stars Austin Abrams, Josh Broly and Elizabeth Shude, John Ortiz, Jane Levy, and Emily Rudd. The story is as follows. Following the death of his father, Jake Gardner goes diving off the coast of California and search of his remains. He soon finds himself in a desperate fight for survival when he swallowed whole by a massive Whale. Trapped inside its belly, he must figure out a way to escape as his oxygen supply starts to run out. - Mm-hmm. - I'm gonna start here. - Yeah. - This movie is 50% fucking amazing. And 50% saccharin and ineffective. And I can't recall another movie experience quite like this where when it's going, when I'm in it, when it is a true body horror aquatic nightmare, I was in heaven. The pain was the pleasure. But when it was a story about a guy having a hard time with his dad, I was like, let's get back inside the Whale. How do we get back inside the Whale as soon as possible? And I wanna say, I recommend the movie because there's a lot of good stuff in it. It's not entirely what I thought it was gonna be. I also never watched any other trailers. I just watched what we saw in April. And so I think I was a little surprised to find that it was a heartfelt drama and not a movie about a guy being crunched inside of a Whale. Although it is that as well. - It is that. Yes. - What did you think of Whale? - This is like your Julia and Julia. Where-- - Yes. - Yes. - All of the. a child's stuff with Meryl Streep is amazing and then Amy Adams having to work at the 9/11 recompensation site. Not so much. That's that's literally what the movie is. So I did learn what happens if you get swallowed by a whale from this movie. So I did. And is that actually what happens? Is that scientifically accurate? Well, I think the various chambers are accurate. Yeah, I think probably the fact that there's methane in there is accurate, which I learned. I'd let you know from Josh Brolin by a flashback and not from the whale insides themselves. So in that sense, it served its purpose. Right. There was a science corner inside the film. Sure, there were many science corners. So I learned I don't know whether I'm not really sure how gravity is working in that context. This is where you started. He's not he's not floating around. It's not zero gravity. How about that? So that question was answered many. That was answered in Pinocchio. When they go in Monstro and they're just sitting there showing. Sure. But it's a big belly crevice. Yeah, yeah. But I was wondering about like the real version. Well, is whale fall real? We can talk about like what's real about this. You know, it's not you can see everything. Questions were asked and questions were answered. Okay. So in that sense, I got what I wanted from the film. It's a ride. It's it is a real ride. I think on the other hand, do I really want to watch 45 minutes of a guy just in a in a whale chamber? Not really. I do. That is something I do want. But again, it's just a personal preference thing. Yeah, I understand. I think that that stuff that is it's there's a there's a lot of contrasting feelings that I'm having about the movie. There's a lot of really, really good practical set construction. Totally. Inside the whale. I think the lighting, I think Austin Abrams' performance where he's like largely nonverbal, expressing a lot of the times through a set of scuba goggles. The physical pain that he endures multiple times, like these dramatic and bizarre sequences in which it feels like he's in like acidic goo or something as a fix itself to his hand that he needs to pull it off. Like there is you can really feel the agony with him. And it's kind of the inverse of Resident Evil where you're also feeling some agony with him. But it's played more comic. This is kind of agonizing in an over the top way. But I thought really, really good. And I like this kind of story. I just felt like what was hammered around the outside of the target was very rote and Josh Brolin as like the great Santini scuba diver was laid on really thick. Incredibly thick, which it has to be both for all of the expositional reasons that we just explained where the flashbacks provide the set pieces and also the ultimate solution as well as the emotional narrative. So you need it. I mean, I did think to myself, we can talk more about this throughout the season. But this is one of those like, is it really that hard to be a dad movies for me where I'm just like, like honestly, what, like what is your damage? Why was he so stressed out? What was the problem? They don't, they don't give you any of the great Santini background. And I was just like, I mean, is it this hard? Um, maybe you guys just should take a playoff. I don't, I don't, I think what it is about, I think what it is about is something that we've seen before, which is that the unspoken circumstances is that Josh Brolin was raised in a certain way. They would no longer be socially permissible, which is to say he was probably beat up as a kid. His dad was probably really hard on him and gave him no approval. Yeah. So he's trying to evolve his level of parenting by being hard on his son, but giving him like the tools that he feels he should have that maybe he didn't have. But like it's not, he hasn't evolved yet. He's not, he's not in the place where most parents are now or where our kids' parents will be. This is like the most common trope in storytelling is what did my parents give me and what did they take away from me? Yeah. And so I think I was just surprised that it was this simple. And I don't think it's about like how hard it is to be a dad. I think it's like that dad is really fucked up. Like he's obviously like a little bit off. You can see in that scene where he gets really drunk with his son and the flashback when they're on the boat together. Yeah. And Austin Abrams' character is trying to connect with him that like that the Brolin character is messed up, but like that's just a that's just a trite character. And yeah, but that's also the the scene when he explains what, you know, how whale poop then provides life to the next generation. And then ultimately that like sets up the here's what a whale fall is. And it's like an entire ecosystem, which is, you know, a very, very obvious metaphor for what we do as fathers. We again, doing a lot of work there. I think it's coming about mothers. Yeah. What about mom fall, you know, that would do that too. You're right. It's it's been well covered. And I was like, I, this is not as emotional. It's not Josh Rowan or Austin Abrams' fault. It's like, it's clearly the film apparently is very faithful to the book. I haven't read the book, but it is pulling a lot of that. So I think it's just that whiplash feeling of when there's a sequence where Abrams is trying to escape through the blow hole. That I was just like, this is incredible filmmaking. Yeah. Like it's just such great practical filmmaking where you've really feel his the distance between where he needs to go and where he wants to be. Do you feel his agony trying to make a move through this disgusting ecosystem that he's living inside of? And so it's such a credit to that. And this movie was obviously very expensive and it didn't do very well at the box offices weekend, which is too bad because I like this kind of thing. There was a 12 year old-ish boy behind me who started plotting is the credits went down though. So it did find its audience. Yeah, it was cute. I saw a video of people watching it in 40x, which sounds horrifying. I have, I'm going to do that when we get back from San Francisco. Are you really my girlfriend? Yes. I mean, I heard that there are like all kinds of smells involved. Obviously there's water misting. If there were ever a movie to see in 40x, which I've never done, I feel like it would be this one. Yeah. And I get that. I get that. I'm sure it's a lot of fun. I'm so I'm so split on this. But yeah, I don't know. I thought that it accomplished what it set out to do pretty well. I agree with you. You know, and you do need. I think Duffield is really talented. I've liked his movies. And you know, the dad stuff. I do stand by enough with the dads, like figure it out on your own time. But you do need that structure else. You have awesome Abrams, like having to say exposition, exposition will explain a story stuff allowed to himself in the whale, which every time he has to do it, it's only like three or four times. It's so obvious. Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, it's not the most sophisticated storytelling structure, but it is also a movie about a guy getting swallowed by a whale. I know. I think I'm thinking of like the absolute bravest version of the movie. Sure. Which you can't make. Obviously, it's completely non-commercial, but to make a $60 million silent film. But like, okay. That's the version of the movie. I think I would want to see. You can absolutely give me the preamble of this guy's father, Dodd. And he wants to go find his remains. Actually, I think the opening sequence with with John Ortiz and Josh Brolin is very well done. Yes. And very powerful. And you're like, you get involved in the story right away. Yeah. And so it's just as soon as we go into flashback territory, I felt I felt a lot of stress in the film. This is the second movie and recent memory in which a sea creature ultimately is narrating what's what's going on. Yeah. And speaking to the the people which I'm okay with, I guess. You like to remarkably break creatures? No, I didn't, but I liked being able to tell you you didn't watch it. So I liked being able to tell you that a an octopus narrates the whole thing. Also, I believe Sally Field wanted that me for it. She did. She did. Thanks to her for a movie. Yes, but a movie for TV. Right. Is Labul and Egor also up for the Emmys this year? I do think they're remarkably bright creatures also featured prominently in the Dan Lynn New York Times piece. Just in terms of Sally Field, really feeling like it had awards potential, which it did. She was 100% rascals. She was right. She was right in a way. I didn't mind it as much as the other stuff, the dad wailed narration. You didn't mind? No. I thought the finale was ambitious. And at times, it was visually reaching for something psychedelic, which I really appreciate. It never quite got there in terms of it. Me being able to buy it in the way that you're always like, I don't know, something just kind of feels like a screensaver a little bit. Yeah. But Though I did, I mean, I did find all of the aquarium like shots very soothing. That sort of is in my wheelhouse. Again, it's what do you want to see when you go to the movies and when when when everyone is just floating along peacefully? Yeah, I respect the ocean. So I fear it. I love going to Cinemacond what I wish I hadn't seen the squid chase too. That's the other thing too is that having seen that sequence, which is so cool, it did diminish some of the excitement that is in the opening 10 minutes of the movie. So yeah, it's a it's a it's a it's a mixed for me. But I do recommend people check it out. And it's a good movie theater movie too because of how well constructed the scenarios are. Yeah. So I don't know, it's you have to be in I think you really actually have to be in a body horror to really love it. that makes total sense. But I don't think it's, I think it is a competent movie. You know, like it is, they made the movie and some things are more successful than others and your taste or at how much whale energy you want to see. That's the other thing is that because of Pinocchio, I just had a different idea conceptually of what the inside of a whale looks like. And it is very close and plush. And so it's not cavernous. - No, let's see, as you said, there are many chambers that this character can move into and out. - Right, and the chambers and all of the practical stuff they did, it's so cool that they built it. And you can tell and it looks really cool. - I saw behind the scenes like image of how they shot a certain sequence like what one of the chambers looked like. And it was fucking amazing. I was like, this is what I want movies to be, you know? - Totally. You are just like looking at like Austin Abrams and Gross Ledge for a while. And different types of Gross Ledge and they are manipulating it. So once again, it's got to be your thing. - The jellyfish light though. - That was brilliant. - Brilliant, brilliant. - All of the things that it is to save. And again, I'm glad I know that whale poop, you know, then fertilizes the plankton. And is it the plankton that traps more CO2 than trees or something? - I'm going. - Listen. - Got this. - Well, I got to have some facts to take home, you know? To my fact kids. - It's funny. I do think that this movie in Street Fighter operate in kind of a similar register for me where I'm like, when this is good, I feel alive, and when it's not good, I feel devastated. And you know what? I just might like movies too much. And now it's time for moments that matter. A segment brought to you by State Farm. Life moves fast. It's full of unexpected twists, big wins, and little surprises that stick with us. But that's totally fine because you can rely on State Farm to be there. Speaking of moments that stick, let's dive into the one that really made whale fall unforgettable. Okay, so I'm going to give you two options. Is it the initial Austin Abrams' character is swallowed by the whale after the squid is swallowed or is it the dawning realization that he is trapped inside of a chamber of his whale's body and he can't get out? - Oh, it's the squid, Chase. It's the squid swallowing, which is so, so, so frightening and visceral. And I mean, squids are really scary, which we know. But at some point you can't tell like what is the whale and what is the squid? And but everything is very frightening and all coming for him all at once. And you do feel like the motion underwater and it's really, really expertly done. - Yeah. - So, and I did also have the realization because we'd seen it at Comic Con. - Cinematon. - Cinematon, sorry, you know. I think we saw the bet, you know, they put the best part in the trailer, which is always like a mixed bag realization because it was really good and we were so excited. But then I was like, oh, okay. You know, nothing can really, really match. - Pop this. - Two vicious animals. - When it comes to moments that matter in real life, there is no script, but State Farm has your back. With State Farm, you can focus on what matters most, knowing you're prepared for whatever comes next. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Okay, now let's go to your whale fault. - This is my whale fault. - Sense and sensibility. - Yeah. - This movie is an adaptation of the 1811 novel by Jane Austen. Perhaps you would all at home have heard of it. It's directed by George Oakley. - Can you name the other five right now? - No, we tried to do this, right? Persuasion, that was one of them. Pride and prejudice, that's one of them. There's like two others that are like very well known that I've completely forgotten. But one is about like a home, what house? - They're both bath ponds. - No, that's tickets. - More thing or Abby, a man's field park. - Right, man's field park, I know. - And then what's Clueless adapted from? - That's Emma. - He didn't, ladies and gentlemen. - Listen, progress. - I know, and I'm trying to remember which of them I've read in high school and maybe only one, but not sense and sensibility. - Emma was often a science. - Okay, you're probably right. It probably was, Emma. George Oakley directed this movie. The screenplay is by Diana Reed. It starts Daisy at your zones. Ezmi Creed Miles, Katrina Balfe, Franklin, Herbert Nordram, George McCuy, and Fiona Shaw. The story for those of you at home who have not been listening to Amanda podcast for 10 years. Three sisters experience love and heartbreak after they're forced to leave their family estate with their widowed mother and move to a humble cottage. The floor is yours. What did you think? - Okay, this is my well fall in that I don't think that it is, oh, it's a full movie. Like it's not incompetent. The things, the stakes, the plot, the intent of the movie are communicated. And when it communicates them well, I was paying attention. And I had a lot of fun at all the moments where I didn't think it communicated it well. And I went with my friend and we were giggling throughout, but a lot of puzzling choices in this. I was concerned about this movie because one of my favorite films of all time is 1995 Sense and Sensibility. Screenplay adapted by Emma Thompson, who also stars in it with Kate Winslet's directed by Ang Lee. It's just kind of a masterpiece of the form of both Austin adaptations, costume dramas, movies about women. And I was like, you this is too close, you can't remake one of my favorite things. I didn't feel watching it like my beloved 1995 Sense and Sensibility wasn't any way besmirched. I didn't really feel any connection to it at all. I felt more of a connection to the Joe Wright Pride and Prejudice adaptation, which was released in 2005. And I felt that you could see like, they were recreating certain shots. They were certainly going for a vibe. The score was very much referenced in the same way. And that makes a lot of sense. It's a very popular adaptation. I don't really think it was that successful. I was bored at times. I think it lacks the humor, the ver, basic things like lighting. And we got to talk about-- - Well, it's, I mean, they made a choice, I think. - They did. - So it's a very specifically go in the opposite direction that Ang Lee goes in. I mean, that adaptation, as I recall, when I watched it for the first time, whatever five years ago from the show, is very bright, is very well lit. And the costuming is very white. There is a kind of like, I think this is an attempt to Barry Lyndon sense and sensibility, a lot of natural lighting in the space, a lot of candlelight, a lot of sunlight. You know, it's very darkened. A lot of their clothes seem worn. They're kind of dirty. - Yes. - It's a very different conception, visually of this world. - It's a, it's a Lyndon, and it's also Bronteified, which is kind of what the Joe right is doing as well. There's like a, there's a quote unquote, wildness to all of it. - That's still me, yeah. - A storminess, a yearning, a passion. I think you're right to note that, you know, many of things, just, it's darker light. More things happen in the evening. The sense and sensibility is just a very daytime movie because that is actually, that's when Austin novels really happen. They're, they are comedies of manners as much as they are, you know, romantic comedies. They are about social observations. And the Brontes get weirder out on the Moors, which this movie has a lot of. This movie doesn't have hair brushes. The, but the number of times I start with a friend of ours, the number of times that we turn to each other being like, what is going on with this one particular wig worn by Marianne as made, Creed Mills? You know, I got that they were trying to do a, a looser version quite literally. - Could not, had no thoughts about her hair. Like never occurred to me she was wearing a wig. Not, not even one second. I thought she was fantastic in this movie. I, I am, she's, she's Samantha Morton's daughter. I'd not seen her perform before. I, I don't have the same, like emotional fealty to the material. - Yeah, yeah. - So I don't, I'm watching it in a different way. But she conveyed, I thought in inner life that none of the other characters really did to me. And, you know, that's a part, big part of that character, but she seemed to have a lot more on her mind and also it seemed to know how to use her face to convey desire, frustration, the quest for independence that seems impossible at this time in history that I thought, you know, sort of Fiona Shaw, who's an incredible always. - Right. - There's just something kind of like a little ledon in the vibe. - I completely agree. I do think some of that is also, she has an ability to communicate things that don't rely on the script. But the script does not have any life to it. It doesn't have any character development. It's certainly not funny in any way, shape or form. - I gotta tell you, there were a lot of laughs in my screening last night. - Okay. - I thought that was kind of interesting 'cause I had a feeling you were gonna say that. - Yeah. - 'Cause it is played a little bit differently than the Ang Lee film, which is again, like, kind of very pop in terms of its divine deliveries. This was more of like a lot of like, I would say tittering to themselves, the quality of laughter. - Okay. - And I couldn't see it. - Was that because the dancing was so extra? Really, really involved choreography. - No, it was about-- - We were giggling. - It was about the Austin punchlines, you know? She's a very punchy writer. - Yes. - And some of that is retained, right? But I couldn't figure out if in the audience, it was people who were very familiar with the material who were like, oh, that's like Cap caught the hammer, but for Austinites. - Right, right, right. - Or was it just like, 'cause for some people, this will be their first sentence and sensibility. - Yeah. - So it was kind of like getting on the wavelength of a certain tone of writing that maybe they're not as familiar with. I don't know. - I don't either. It was dead silent when I saw it. - It was, okay. - And the pacing was, pretty slow. And you're right that they're trying to do something different than the tart arch social observation that is Austin's bread and butter and most of the adaptations that have come before it. Yeah. But yeah, it feels like those are more in line with almost like Oscar Wilde and this is this is Bronte. I'm trying to think of like what's a filmic comparison like what is a because it's interesting that movie like this would come out in the same year as weathering heights and I thought the adaptation choices and weathering heights were frequently be wilderness. Yeah. But it's a movie with a ton of style. You know, it's just like it's a it's a capital-de-directed movie and this movie is the choices are made but it is a little like loose and soft and also even just like the way it's shot it's so soft focus. It's funny to think about you can see everything opening the same weekend. This is this movie which is so deep focus and all the inserts and little things that are captured so specifically in that movie and this movie is just like where we're like zoomed in on a woman's dress but you can barely make out what material it's made out of. You know, it's a very specific choice. I'm trying to is that supposed to be like a decision about the interior life of the women. Things feel a little hazy, you know, like I can see that being the idea but it doesn't really convey anything meaningful to me as I watched it. Yeah, I mean I do also think I appreciate candlelight and love Barry Lyndon and like we're not all Stanley Kubrick and I do think that some of the intentional choices were just not executed appropriately. Like, you cannot see half of the production design and the clothes and the shots in this film. It's hard to do. I like that they tried. I was reminded of Steven Spielberg talking about visiting the set of Hamlet and being like, let me know when the lighting is ready and they're like, no, no, no, this is this is how we're doing it. And it is great. And this is very much. You can let it in a complimentary way but it was a kill shot movie. Yeah, that was incredible. But like it is it is invogue and it's a specific choice. I didn't think it works because again, in the same way that you go to Whalefall to see, you know, whale guts. Yeah. I go to see like the beautiful clothes and houses and everything just so. And I could tell that they spent a lot of time thinking like the production design and the costume and give it, I think the wig was that crazy on purpose. But but that there were no hairbrushes for a reason. And I found it, I found some of it just technically like didn't pay off. May we talk about the performances for a second? Yeah, let's do it. Because this was a real roller coaster for me personally. Daisy Edgar Jones plays Eleanor. It's it's not an exciting part and it's a not supposed to be an exciting part. It's a top job. And it's a especially tough job when Emma Thompson has played it before you so memorably. Yeah. But she's she's not doing very much. She's very beautiful. I was thinking she's been on one of these great press tours just fashion wise that people are on and she was on the cover. I think I've British vote kind of doing like painting recreations and period style. It was so beautiful. And I was like, oh, so that's the successful version of this performance, which is unfair to everyone involved. Yeah. But she's not given much to work with. And again, I don't think the script, I think that the script really jumps through a lot of what's going on between these people and often jumps through dialogue in order to let them just yearn and have this sort of wistful. I'm not happy with my lot in life moments. That sounds dismissive. They you know, they don't have a place to live and they can't work for a living as other episodes have as other adaptations have reminded us. But she doesn't she doesn't get to do much. Yeah. I think it's a challenging part. I still I'm kind of undecided on Daisy at your Jon's more generally. She's definitely not bad at the movie, but she doesn't have like kind of gravitational force that you want for a figure like this. And because the movie is not pop, you know, Emma Thompson, obviously, she wrote her own part in that movie. So she knew when to give herself emotional restraint. She knew when to give herself a laugh line. She knew when to give herself some certain things. Daisy at your Jon's as an actress is so confusing to me. I thought she was wonderful and normal people. I think that's like such a beautiful show. And her movie choices have been pretty odd to me. When she did fresh, do you remember that movie of Sebastian Stan that weird movie about me? I was like, Oh, she's adventurous. This is going to be a really bold performer. And then she ripped off where the crowd adds saying twisters on swift horses and sense and sensibility. Now coming up, she has a place in hell here comes the flood and tomorrow and tomorrow. She is quite beautiful. She, I feel like she maybe does not have a screen persona. Yeah. And she, you know, she's a good actor, but she's trying to be a star. And so like, what am I getting when I sit down for Daisy at your Jon's movie? I don't really know. It's hard to, it's not just not been communicated to me yet. I don't need this movie as like. And this part doesn't allow her to communicate anything else to you. She's paired against George Mkai, who's playing Edward Ferrer's famously played by Hugh Grant in like a very specific way. Hugh Grant really makes a choice to be very awkward. And with Jon in that, you grant. Well, but like sort of even in a different way than the there's no awkward charm. He's not actually charming and sense and sensibility on purpose anyway. And George Mkai doesn't really seem to make much of any choice. I think he's fine as well. They don't have that much to do when they finally get together at the end. I was happy. I was like, I'm not, I'm not above this. You know, there are some, there are some pleasures in this. So they, there is sort of, they're just there. It's really funny with all the plotting in Austin stories. I feel like we have an Oscar Wilde as well. Because of how influential they are. I frequently feel like I'm just watching a sitcom. Because it comes are so based in the social misunderstanding of these stories. Yes. Or someone says one thing and it's misconstrued. And then there's one character who's like laughably evil. And you're like, you know, the, the, what is her name? Who plays the new misses? Oh, Lucy. No, no, not Lucy. Lucy. Now, Stacy Martin's character. The, the blonde who comes in like. Oh, oh, did the new Mrs. Dashboard. Yes. Fanny. Fanny, thank you. You know, that character is just on the page too. You're just like, all right. Yeah. This is like so, so unbelievable how cruel and weird she is. But that we've like, we become assimilated with this kind of storytelling. You know, we're like, if there is something kind of warm at the end of the movie where you feel like characters are getting the things that they want and that they deserve. So it's not, there's, there's, I don't think the movie is bad at all. No, it's, and the, and you're right that that structure does undergird like much of what we now watch, but it's sitcoms and not correct. Like your name. Not drama. Not drama. Yeah, not drama. So now, now we turn to the other characters. I agree with you that as make Creed Miles was wonderful and is very good in some real presence and kind of seems like in the same way that the 1995 sentence on disability was like an announcement for Kate. Yeah. Yeah. I simply agree. Everyone she has paired against is just an absolutely, it's the where did they find these people. All stars accepted. Then I realized mid movie where they found all of these actors who have been good in other films. Yeah. And I was so confused. I just, well, you can go through that. Yes. Okay. So, well, first of all, I know where they found Katrina Balfe and I think she just got some, uh, direction to play Mrs. Dashwood as someone who had a head injury. I don't, it was very confusing. Katrina Balfe is in a tough spot because she's just way too beautiful to be playing mom. And like, she keeps playing mom like in, it's the same thing in Belfast from like this woman. She should be running this country. Well, the best part of Belfast is just the scene when it's like, hey, look how hot my parents were. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But this is the same thing where I agree she's not really given her, she seems confused. And the one moment when she like has her voices heard, it's when she makes a terrible decision to leave the Dashwood residents. Right. Um, but yeah, she's not given a lot to do. Yeah. I thought Fiona Shaw was very entertaining. The movie came to life when she when Mrs. Jennings. Yeah. When, like, when is Fiona Shaw ever bad? Yeah. I'm really talking about the, the male characters. Okay. So Frank Delane is Willoughby. This to me, and I, I have no knowledge of it. But to me, it seems like they realized they had such a problem, either on set or in the edit that they really cut him out. Okay. Because Willoughby is barely in this movie. And there is really no development of the relationship between Mary Ann and Willoughby. And everything that he does evenly is explained off camera or by another character. It's just, it's not working. It's just absolutely, it's, it's a hard no. They have no chemistry. And then poor Colonel Brandon, who again, you're played by in the 1995, and this is where the shadow of the 1995 Looms large because Willoughby is played by Greg Wise, who then famously became Amitamson's real life husband. They met on set. So, you know, Amitamson, then actually marrying real life Willoughby is, is part of the legend of the thing. But also Greg Wise is, you know, a great actor. And, and they have, you may recall, I was unmoved by him when I watched this movie. Well, you're not supposed to be. Okay. You know, but, uh, but they are, it's nice. The thing I'm married. I'm happy for them. But they at least have scenes together, Mary Ann and Willoughby, like you see them speaking to each other. I don't think you actually see these two people. people speaking to each other. It's just out of nowhere. They're like, oh, now we're in love. - He saves her. Yeah, we don't see them. I always wonder about this. Like, didn't they have a conversation when he's carrying her back to the house all the way from the beach? - Yeah, you'd think so. Maybe he's like winded. - Oh, wow. - You know? I mean, maybe it's hard. - I mean, maybe it's hard. - Well, or whatever. - Brian DeLane, Stephen DeLane, the actor's son. - Yeah. - Who was in Urchin, the Harris Dickinson film. And I think it's a pretty good actor, but I agree he doesn't leave much of an impression here. - Right. - Then Colonel Brandon is played by Herbert Nordrum, who I didn't realize until after the movie that it was worst person in the world guy. - Yes. - We're doing very different things in this film and it's just not working. And again, this is someone who's played by Alan Rickman and the original, but again, there's no real sense of, that is the character who is supposed to have the yearning and the romance. He has like held the candle for this other person for a long time and then he meets Marianne and is supposed to introduce what, you know, what real love and longing and patience is supposed to be. I don't think Herbert Nordrum is giving that respectfully and certainly not to the Marianne character in this film. And then Elliott Sumner and Mrs. As Mr. Palmer, I was just like, what's happening right now? But I just, I'm sorry, are we in a different movie? So that was tough, that was a real, I know where they found all of those people to be clear, but it was a real triumvirate of, of miscasting. - I just like to say, I'm keeping my eye on Sierra Colvinny who played Lucy Steele, she has my attention. - Yeah, it's all I'm saying. - But that's another one. - My zone. - Well, when you were talking about like the evil person, X Machina, you know, I thought you were talking about that. - She was like that character is not developed and they just, they don't honestly seem to know what to do with the plot, which is, it is hard to adapt a larger novel and make it comprehensible and kind of make the, if this, then that's work. And they don't really manage that in this film. - Okay. So. - But I didn't have a bad time. And then at the end, I talked with my friend about making my own beta jewelry. So, you know, we like, it served its purpose. - I say. - Right? Yeah, I feel like we both got what we deserve on this episode. - Yeah, you long for something. - Yeah. - You learn for something the way an Austin character might, you learn for a whale, for a man going inside of a whale, and you get your just desserts. - Yeah. - Would you like to power rank best picture contenders? - I'd love to. - Okay. So when we last did this, there were 31 contenders. - Okay. - I'm wondering how many of them you think will be able to cross off at this point. It is only October 19th. - That's true. - But for example, we have now seen sense and sensibility. That doesn't feel like a movie. That's going to be nominated as a picture. We'll go through some others. You know, some of these movies have been released. Some of them have not. There's now only four that neither of us have seen, as far as I know from your perspective. - Okay. - Those four movies are being human, the Apple film directed by Sean Hader, Dune Part Three, the further misadventures of Cliff Booth, which I'd just like to say is five weeks away from release, I don't know a soul who's seen it. And we're wolf. - Yeah. - I've started my werewolf film watching. - Congratulations. - 'Cause it's the season for werewolf. - Yes, but what's exciting for you is that the season then just extends. - It will go all the way through December 25th. - That's beautiful. - Werewolf, do you like 'em? - I don't, how are they different from Wolverines again? - Wolverines are an animal. - Honestly, Jack just like groaned in the booth. - That was not a groan, it was laugh. - A werewolf is a man that turns into a wolf humanoid and a Wolverine is a real animal. - The Wolverine is just an animal in nature that exists. Also, a werewolf is not like inspired by Wolverines, it's inspired by wolves. - Okay, but wolves are, how can you not know this? - Are wolves related to Wolverines? - No. - No. - I mean, what? It's right there in the title. I'm really looking at this word W-O-L-V-E, werewolf, aree. - I mean, they may be in the same fire lung. - Yeah, that's what I'm asking. - Sure, yeah. - Come on, Mr. Richard Addenborough over here. Or David, but like a wolf wouldn't give birth to a Wolverine. - Sure, yes, no, I understand that. - Okay, so. - You're so rare wolves. - You're so like Hugh Jackman as Wolverine piled. You think that the Wolverine is somehow a more dominant figure in nature than it actually is. Wolverines are like a bit smaller. - No, I know, I've once again Googled it and it looks like a wolf seal. - This is why you're not invited to the werewolf episode. - So werewolves though, it's about night time? - When a full moon, when there's a full moon, the man will turn into a werewolf or the woman for that matter. I just watched a movie in which a woman was the werewolf. - Oh, that's exciting. So have you gotten to the Harry Potter where there's a werewolf character? - No. - Okay. But he's a werewolf, right, guys, in the booth? - Yes he is. - All right, thumbs up from Lucas. Okay, so I know something about werewolves, okay, but not naturally occurring, like Wolverines, which are naturally occurring, but not in the Hugh Jackman form. - Naturally occurring? - Yeah, they're real. - Well, the origin of werewolves is up for debate, was it some sort of mystic who cast a spell on someone, a curse of some kind, or was it something different? Was it something from nature? We don't know. - Do you believe there are werewolves? - No, but I'd like to. - Okay. - Let's talk about the films. So we did this a month ago, and a month ago, our top 10 was obsession. All of a sudden, the debut, the invite, Fjord, Project Hail Mary, Dune Part Three, Wild Horse Nine, Laboh and Egra, and the Odyssey. That was from 10 to one. - Okay. - How many of those 10 do you think are coming off? - At least two, probably three, and maybe four. - Wow, four would be a lot, that's cool. Okay, so I want to talk about you can see everything. - Yeah. - You can see everything is obviously going on the list. We mentioned this on Friday's episode. You can see everything is clearly a best picture contender. It might be contending in some other categories. I don't want to ruin you can see everything for people who are trying to enjoy this episode without having seen the movie. But it feels, this is a rapturous reception of this movie. I'm not sure if I can recall the last time, so many cynical people in the world of movie going, we're like, whoa, we just lived up. Highest rated movie on Letterbox ever, through the roof, performance at the box office, reviews all around, glowing. - Right. - Even the cynic, like, is this really that good? It's still like three and a half stars. You know, like there's no like, the one star reviews are such bad faith that there's not really a big gap there, so. - I think the only question is the overlap between the community you just described, which is young and Letterbox, and I think it was like a wildly young showing at the box office, like under 30, the huge, like shout out Gen Z, shout out the booth. But so whether that overlap and Academy voters is as big as we would hope that it is. - Yeah. - And I think it is, like, we're definitely putting it in, but that's kind of the only weak spot that I can sense. - I think you're right. I think it's unclear. - Then what we know is is not the same as what Academy voters think. - Agreed. - That's all. - Agreed. I don't know what to make of that yet. I have not talked to enough people in that wing of the world who have seen the movie and what they think of it. I think the consensus also seems to be what we talked about, which is that the doc branch will probably be a little bit more finicky about this movie. I don't think that really affects its best picture changes, to be honest with you. - I think it might help it, honestly, because the narrative is already out of, you know, what's up with those doc people? And I think that there are many both cinephiles and also just Academy voters who don't totally agree with what's going on over there. So. Well, you see it whenever they put a certain kind of a movie up, that's when they voted for my octopus teacher, even though that was the only commercial movie in that collection of nominees that year, because they often are kind of operating an opposite to what that, how that branch works. So let's just, what does your gut tell you that you can see everything? Where does it sit right now in one through 10? Like, is it five? - I think it's at least five. - Oh, you think it could even be higher than that? - Yeah. - You think it could win? - I don't know. - I mean, that would just be fast. - It would be amazing. - That would be fantastic. It certainly, I mean, I think it's pretty clearly my favorite movie of the year right now. - Yeah, well, I mean, we live in Wild Oscar times, you know? It for both good and bad. - Yeah, I've been thinking about this, you know, at the halfway mark, I had several Canadian films on my list. - Yeah. - This is also kind of a Canadian film 'cause Nathan is Canadian. In scene here for Canadian cinema. - Yeah, I mean, I guess they'll claim it, although I'm sure that if we tried to draft it in the Canadian draft, then like six months later, various Canadian people would find us and just be like, you are disrespecting the North or whatever. But sure, you guys get it. - Damon and I did talk about finding Francis, the final episode of Nathan for you, which is two hours long, potentially being like, should that have been eligible in the Canadian movie draft? So there's been some talk about it, but obviously this is a US release and Lances from Florida. So. - Yeah. It's four three, you know, let's put it, let's put it for it. at four right now. - Okay. - Okay. - You can see everything at number four. Do you feel that the Odyssey and LeBolanegra have shifted in any way over the last four weeks? LeBolanegra opened this weekend. - Yes. - Did apparently pretty well in only four theaters. - Yeah. - And my wife loved it, cried. - I think everybody who sees it really does like it. - And she did say though. - Yes. - Something that I think is true and we spent some time talking about this. We had a great date night where we hadn't - So great. - On Saturday, she saw LeBolanegra Saturday. She saw you can see everything on Thursday. We hadn't talked about either movie. So it was like - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Two movies that are just so great to sink your teeth into. But she was like, it's very slow, LeBolanegra. That was how she felt. She felt it was very moving and very well made, but very slow. And she literally asked me something that you would ask me on the show, which is like, when people turn this on on the screener app, are they gonna be bored and turn it off? And I thought that was an interesting question. I don't really know. - I mean, they could be. And I think we're always pretty rude about what we think of people who turn things on in this screener app. - Of course. - So I don't know why we would exclude this town. I do think that there was something about the scale on which the movie is made that communicates something like old-fashioned and oscary and epic that will get a certain voter who otherwise would be like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I need something else. But oh, you've made a sweeping war epic. Okay, well, I'll sit down and it can take a little more time. I think it's still pretty in the mix. And-- - I do too. - Guitar, Catalafuente. Listen, I practice, is like very on the circuit now. So, you know, and on the cover-- - Is that the best performance in the movie though? - No, it's not. - It's a very interesting thing. - I think it's because he's a Spanish pop star. And so, like very big in Spain, you know, and they're, and Ready Made and it's like-- - He's famous. - He's the Eora ambassador and, you know, it was like at the Academy Museum of Gaula. - He's the fifth best performance in the movie, which is really kind of fascinating. - I was, I was glad to see that hold on, let me Google his name, actors, that Miguel Bernadot was on the cover of variety. - I didn't see it. - With guitar, guitar, nope. I have a-- - Guitar, the De La Fuente. - Guitar, De La Fuente, yeah, sorry. I closed the tab. He, he's very powerful in the film. And I think has been underrepresented in the narrative. - Yeah, he's hot as what you're saying. - Yeah, but he's also good at acting. - Yeah, I agree. - So, I think there's a lot of different angles of that one. You know, Penelope Cruz is gonna be back on the circuit soon. I think it's rolling out. I think this is sort of related to what we were saying about you can see everything, which is kind of what is the package for a movie like LeBlanc and Eggera? It would be a lot of a lot of the line stuff. You could certainly see production design and best editing. And you could see score. You could see a lot of different kinds of things from that film. But if it doesn't have two acting nominations, I don't really think it's a serious threat to win. And so I'll be curious to see whether or not, you know, Penelope Cruz pops in the movie for a very brief period of time, but very memorable. - Yeah. - Eileen also was like Penelope Cruz, wow. - Yeah. I mean, that's a classic Judy Dension Shakespeare and love, not right there. - And if he turns it off and then it gets in. Then that changes things. I think this is still one, too. I think it's still the Odyssey one and LeBlanc and Eggera two. - Yeah. - The Odyssey has very wisely laying dormant or waiting now. - Until about what? November 15th probably and then all of the sudden, you're gonna start seeing some screenings and stuff. - November 15th is the governor's words, right? And so that's when it all starts. - Yes. So from there, I don't really know. I think I'm a little bit confused by the way that a few of the international titles are being navigated at the moment. Some of them we've not yet seen. Like, for example, we put all of a sudden at number nine. We both really liked all of a sudden. And it's not coming out until November. I don't really think it's gonna do a lot of business. So what is the like, is it just a hope that Hamaguchi and Virginia Fira can drag it into the frame? The same way that like Vognomora could help to drag the secret agent into the frame. You think that's the paybook? - I think so. Yeah, sit in the same way that, you know, Lable and Agra needs a certain number of acting nominations in order to win best picture. I think that Virginia Fira getting out there campaigning, putting eyeballs on it. And, you know, Riz kamaguchi has been at the Oscars before. So it's not unheard of. - Yeah. - Slightly different, you know, that year obviously and in the kind of coming out of COVID times was slightly different, but yeah. - And I think, you know, to Eileen's point, people turning this film on a screener on the, you know, the Academy website. But on the other-- - This is a real put your phone in the other room kind of movie. Like you got to pay attention to it. Lock in. You see the thing you'd still there? - I don't know. - I don't think so either. I mean, what we really need to talk about is Fjord. - Yeah. - Which, you know, we were very puzzled by and we were puzzled by its release schedule. It's not out very widely right now. - It's still just four theaters. - And, you know, I suppose it'll roll out. And it is Neon, which knows what they're doing, especially when it comes to international Oscars and Palm Door winners. On the other hand, Artificial is also Neon. And, you know, I speculated to you again, without knowing anything of whether Neon is just kind of putting its chips away from Fjord into Artificial, which feels like it has a lot more currency right now. And juice. So, right now, I would put Artificial in over Fjord. - Yeah. - And then, once again, we're at the risk of being two American, which we always are at this particular juncture. - Is it possible that Artificial, and you can see everything are additions, and that maybe like, is it possible that possible love is also going in here over something like all of a sudden, or Fjord? Like, I'm trying to figure out what is the movie that's gonna come in, 'cause there's a couple. - Yeah. - There's all these ripple effects from you can see everything. For example, we had on this list, the debut and the invite. - Yeah, I think the invite still happening, and the debut, I mean, I don't know, debut is one that I still haven't seen. Everyone at the debut was at BFI, the London Film Festival over the weekend for the closing screening instead of at the Academy Gala, but they kind of had their moment. But so, it's still competing over, you know, it's not-- - It's tail end of festival season. - Yeah, it's not wide release territory yet. You know, they haven't like declared the campaign open. - The debut comes out in December. - Yeah. - So it's still a way as a way here. I just think I've just watched in person, a rapturous reception in a very like Oscar Votary kind of crowd. So it's weird because I, one of these movies I think is gonna have to take a bullet if you can see everything gets in. Now you can see, we're high on the supply if you can see everything. It's possible that as three months go by and we learn more about the process of the movie and the bloom comes off them rose in some way. But-- - Let me say another word to you that we haven't said yet, obsession. - Yeah, I think this was great for list making purposes on September 21st. - Sure, yeah, totally. No, we did it and we had to do it. I, you know, when you start wondering where they're gonna make room, I think they're gonna make room for the debut before they make room for obsession. I think they're gonna make room for the invite before they make room for obsession. I think that I don't know, again, these are not quality judgments. These are just observations about the Academy of Voting, buddy. - Yeah, I think we gotta get a look at what the PGA nominations are gonna be. - Well, sure, but we don't get those until-- - No, we don't. Right now, if we stick with the Odyssey, doing part three and Project Hail Mary here, that is three big movies that communicate movies are back. Now, it doesn't mean that there can't be four. And it doesn't mean that Michael is out. That's true. - Michael is not out. Michael played at the DGA over the weekend to shoot to a huge screening. And-- - And Coleman Domingo, I believe, was honored at the Academy Museum Gala. - And Academy loves Coleman Domingo. And Coleman Domingo is gonna-- - Who doesn't love Coleman Domingo? - I love him as well. And he's gonna campaign his ass off as well for that movie. So it's a weird situation where it sounds good to say, "Oh, fjord, and all of a sudden, and possible love." And this is the new Academy. But there's a bunch of huge movies this year that could be best picture nominees. So this is a really interesting race. The actual top of the race is not that interesting 'cause I feel the Odyssey is so strong. But the 10 is a lot of fun. Like, it's kind of hard to cross things off. We can cross off sense and sensibility. Is there anything else you would even consider crossing off right now? - I mean, maybe eight. - Let's see. Yeah, I don't think ink's happening. - It just feels like more commercial and not really like-- - I don't think Josephine's happening. - It does seem like it's been a little quiet. Yeah, it does seem like it's been a little quiet. That's still not out for another month. So I'm a little reluctant to knock off things before they're out. - For sure, fair enough. - Okay. - Yeah, that's a tricky one. I'd say let's wait and let's reevaluate that 'cause it'll be literally when it comes out in November. - Right. But it is the surprise aspect of you can see everything does seem to just have toppled the Django tower of the rest of a war season and that like and really screwed up a lot of people's strategies. Right? And it has. Can I throw another thing out at you? Yeah. Digger. Listen, they are so passionate. And I again, I respect the commitment. I respect a cause most of the time. Do you think there's going to be room for it again, like when you're like, Oh, Fjord. I'm like, this is not. This is Tom Cruise. Yeah. I agree. I think Digger seems more likely than Fjord at this point. I agree with you. And but some of that is just because of this strategy is that everyone is taken in terms of delaying the international releases. You know, some of this is just a reflection of where we are in the calendar. Yeah. People are passionate about Digger. I think it makes sense to acknowledge their hive by placing it on this list right now. Okay. I also think right now artificial is in I that's I feel very strongly that artificial isn't when you said. How many are coming off and I said to a certainty it was to make room for you can see everything and artificial. I'll say and I'm totally open to just the play it's safe. I would say artificial is at nine. Just the play it's safe. Okay. And I you're just you're repeating the mistakes of the past. I'm doing I'm doing no such thing. Get ready. Where were you when we had long discussions of after the hunt and queer? I was here for after the hunt and I saw it in Venice. That's what I was saying. The movies didn't make it in. Sure. It's on materially. Okay. So I remember. I think Digger attend is just you want to have fun. Let's just reflect that this movie has vocal advocates in the community. Okay. And I'll be seeing it again. I probably will too. It has wildhorns nine moved at all. It's outside of as you said we're we're kind of beyond the Wow John Melchowicz reception in the film first set of the festival. It just seems like a foregone conclusion that it will get a best picture nominee and Melchowicz will win and McDonald again at least the screenplay, yeah, maybe Rockwell. I could see Rockwell. It's a good one. Wonderful. I yeah. And that's kind of similar to the kind of package that Martin McDonald movies have gotten in the past. The three bullwords got that benches have been a share in God. Okay. So four spots and that means is Project Hell Mary in the same place that it was. This is also a movie that is not yet campaigning right but will because Amazon after parting ways with Artificial only has one film up for actually that's not true that has I play Rocky. Yeah. I still have not seen but a real crowd please are and also has a history with the Academy. Yeah, sure. Bobby Farley. Yeah. I play Rocky and Michael as your old school sort of your anti you can see everything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think we have to acknowledge that this is such an interesting evolutionary point for the Academy Awards where we think that it is, you know, the parasite, you know, nomadland Oscars. Yeah. But also it's the Oppenheimer and I guess one battle is kind of the splits the difference between the two in terms of Art House and mainstream. But do you think one of Michael or I play Rocky will get in one biopic down the middle crowd but please her movie yes, though you could argue that we already have the crowd pleasers in Project Hail Mary and June, part three, but those are big spectacle sci-fi movies. Okay. And so you want just like this is Bohemian Rhapsody right. This is the theory of everything. This is the yeah, you know, there is a long tradition. So it's funny because I kind of think also. This is Judy. In a different way, Digger is getting a lot of that audience because it's not a biopic, but it's Tom Cruise. It's Inari too, which is a different take. I mean, you know, Digger is not a biopic and is an annoyingly untraditional in many ways, but it is scratching a similar type of itch in a similar type of brain. I think you're just reflecting on movies. You don't like that. I'm not sure if there's a real correlation between Digger and Michael, but Inari to be bombast. Do you think? Bombast and a sort of an overconfidence that Oscar voters have responded to that we have like we know Inari to is big with the Academy and we know that also biopics are like straight down the line obvious biopics are big with the Academy, obviousness that that is the common theme. Okay. Do you think that obsession, all of a sudden and fjord are out? Yes. Right now. Okay. That would leave Neon with one title and a 24 with three if we included the invite in the debut, which we do not have to of course. Okay. I think it's possible that one of those is going out. You know, we have not considered stuff like underloving care or minotaur or what's a father land? Elson or Elson or is an interesting one right people keep because critics are not going to like it. Yeah. But actors are going to love it. They do love it. Yeah. They do love it. Yeah. And I'm saving space for that as well. I'm because maybe not in this episode, you're very generous. Yeah. Well, this is a game, right? We're playing a game. I love a game. And it's it right now. It's right now. We're playing Jenga. And when you remove one, one block, you have to place it on top and it will teeter. And I feel like we're teetering here. We are. I don't know if I see the invite the debut and you can see everything happening. But doesn't Neon regularly get three internationals in? I know it's different, but really what last year, maybe it was it just you. I can't remember. I can't remember. Why don't we just pull up? Yeah. Twenty twenty. I heard. Oh. That's a picture. No, because they did not get the Jafar Panahi film, right? Right. Yeah. So we had sentimental value and they had the secret agent. Okay. And that's hard to do. It's hard to get three films from one studio. It's also hard. It's certainly hard to get three international films. That wouldn't be the case for 824. The debut and the invite and you can see everything are all kind of crowd pleasering. That doesn't even account for club kid and the drama and other movies that were not quite that I think are kind of in prime time as well. I think all three of those movies are a little bit on the outside looking at the moment. I agree. I don't know. There's usually a very even distribution amongst the studios, where you get emotional too. So between the debut and the end right. Tricky thing about the invite is that Olivia Wilde's making a movie right now. Right. And so she can't. She just so much campaigning in the three months after the release of the film. And now she's making a comedy called naughty with Jennifer Addison, I think. Is that right? And so I don't know. Well, that hurt the movie. I really don't know. I'm just flagging that because that's another movie that could be impacted by you and see everything surging. And then the debut comes out in December. And just charm offensive plus the Julian more than a more yeah, undeniable and she's beloved. And she's in architectural digest, showing off her new townhouse. So did you see the projector, $6,000 projector that I was very interested in. Bard Freud link her husband, yeah, filmmaker. And well, but then also her brother in law, his brother designed the place. But we should talk project she has an AB guy like Tracy Lutz. I guess so. Yeah, it's nice. Um, I don't have a projector right now. It's cool. But I will. Okay. I will. And then also, you know, it's just safe space. Then you don't have to have like the screen in the middle of the room. It's beautiful. So she's campaigning in her own way. I think the debut is still in I agree. Eight the debut. Okay. Seven, six and five project home areas in. I think so. It's at seven right now. The decision I'm making right here for us, we have two slots, six and five. Okay. I play Rocky. No. Sure. Everyone loves it. Over Michael. Yes. I think so. The thing about Michael. I know what meet a lot of money. Mm hmm. I just. And I know people like the music of Michael Jackson. Sure. I do. But I do too. It's just, there's a lot of trouble there, you know, and it seems like I play Rocky as right there is another crowd. Please. You was like green book. Best picture. That's true. I, you know, they don't give a fuck. I just, I think that when you have another option, like I play Rocky, it just, you know, and you have many other blockbusters in the mix is I play Rocky and digger achievable since they're both. I don't think so. I don't think so. But you want to do this. So. - Yeah, so. - I think Dune Part Three has to be at number five. - Okay, I'm fine with this. - What if Dune Part Three doesn't get in? - I don't know. - Didn't even move not nominated for Best Director for Dune Part Two. - Yeah, well, they're ungrateful, you know? They make mistakes. - That was heinous. - I agree. - That was heinous. - I'm looking forward to the film. - Me too, me too. I'm really excited about that one. This is all wrong, but I'm kind of enjoying myself where we're at right now. - Yeah, it's totally wrong. - A song to Digger Hive. - Listen, they're doing great posting, and I respect a poster. - You wanna read the 10? - Sure. At 10, Digger, at nine, artificial, at eight, the debut, seven, Project Hail Mary, six, I play Rocky. Five, Dune Part Three, four, you can see everything. Three, Wild Horse Nine, two, La Bolognagra, and one, The Odyssey. - Yeah, this is good. This is right, this is all correct. - Yeah. - Is there any movie that we haven't mentioned from the list of 31, or 29, I should say now, now that sense and sensibility and ink have been next? I'll tell you what, being human is another movie though I have not seen it. I think it's giving people similar feelings to something like I play Rocky. - Okay. - A very warm, uplifting true story? - Yes. - From the director of Coda, who won best picture for making a warm, uplifting, not true story. Right, that was not true story, was it? Was that the true story of you? - No. - It wasn't. - Did you ever sing in school? - I was in choir for sure. - Did you ever have a solo? - Yes, I did, in second grade. - Do it for us now. - No, in second grade at the Christmas pageant, I sing the, what's the song about the donkey? Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, no, no, no, like a carol. Like I went to a biblical schools. But here's the important thing about the solo. And I don't know whether you've entered this phase of parenting yet. All right, our American Girl Dolls on your radar. - The Italian Christmas donkey. Gaggedy, ginkie, huh? You know, American Girl Dolls. - Isn't that it? - So I make the donkey. - Yeah. - I'm from New York for fuck's sake, all right? - Okay. - Please respect Dominic. Continue, I'm sorry. - I asked you a question. - What did you ask me? - I was, I was thinking of music. I had a song in my heart. - All right, Girl Dad, American Girl Dolls, yes or no. - Okay, we have not acquired any. - So you're not there yet. It's awareness. - No, if I let her go into that store in Century City, she'll never come out. - What if I get her one for Christmas? - Well, you'd be, you'd be, you'd be. - I'd be. - You'd be aunt of the year. - This is, oh, this is really exciting. I mean, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna put that 'cause I don't even know which one I would get her and they have so many since I became a child. I'm really, really excited. Meena and I had a very long conversation about, like, are we missing out on American Girl Dolls because we have sons? - More moms, yeah. - But, you know, I'm very aware of this phenomenon. I'm very aware of the fact that it would take my daughter's life. - Anyway, second grade, Christmas pageant, singing not the Dominic, the donkey song, in a child's size Samantha outfit. They sold matching outfits. So you could match with your doll. I had the gray school outfit. I wore it to the Christmas pageant for my solo. That was kind of my apex. - Is it little donkey? Is that the name of the song? - I don't know. - It's about what's happening in the manger. - Yeah. - And I think that I had that. - It describes the journey by Mary, the mother of Jesus to Bethlehem on the donkey of the title. ♪ And I saw this something, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, We have to put that on the screen, whatever that dress is. See, see this little girl? This is exactly where you were now. That was me. I don't think I wore the bow. That looks a little like Annabelle from the horror film Annabelle. No, you know. You probably had to have Annabelle vibes. Which one is she? She's the doll. She's the jewel. But she doesn't, does she clap? No. Who's that? Who claps? Yeah. Viewer? A clapping doll? I don't know. Gilbert Cruz used to always just make a joke with me about one of them. Maybe it's not a doll. Maybe it's just like a spirit that claps? Spooky season? Yeah, that sounds familiar, but I can't think of what Gilbert was referring to. This is going really well. This is a great show. This is a show about film and film culture. And we have adequately captured it. Do you know the Julia Roberts was an American girl doll film? I've never seen it. What do you mean? She played the doll? She was, yeah, so there's an American girl film series. Okay. Samantha, an American girl holiday. Maybe she just produced them. What's going on with Julia Roberts? An American girl moves. I know she's in one. Okay. Kid Tridge, an American girl. Yeah, sure. Okay. That sounds like something, maybe. I guess she wasn't in it. Maybe she just produced it. Okay. We got to wrap this up. I got Kyle McGlock on the show for Christ's sake. Okay. Well, thank you to Samantha. Thank you to Dominic the donkey and the donkey, the other donkey that carried Mary to Bethlehem to give birth to Jesus Christ. Thanks to them for their work. Thanks to the whale. Thanks to John Austin. Yeah. And now let's go down to my conversation with Kyle McGlock on. Here with Kyle McGlock on, I almost don't know what to do with myself. Personally, I've spent a lot of time watching over the years. You've written a new book, fictional selves. It is about your life. In full and in the arts and in acting. You've been talking about your life a lot because of this. But I was hoping that in our conversation, we could just zero in on a very particular time. One year of that. Now, I don't know when specifically to start. So you're going to have to help guide me a little bit. But there's about three chapters of the book that are dedicated to roughly the period where you read Blue Velvet. You agree to be in Blue Velvet. Blue Velvet happens. And your movie stardom is sort of off in a way. Yes. So I guess maybe you can help me set our 12-month period here. Can we do 18 months? Let's do it. It'll be easier. The, the, well, a preface it by saying, so doom, filming of doom happened in '83. Majority of '83. Seven months of filming in Mexico City. Which was my first ever time working in a film. First ever film script. Time in front of the camera. I had no idea what I was doing, which is obvious when I look at the movie now. Certain scenes. But, and you said you had expected that you would be largely a stage performer, a theater actor. Yeah, I was, I went to the college. I was trained for a repertoire theater. That was my thing. A very wonderful training program. Part of the professional training program. A group of which were about 10 or 12 schools around the country, Yale, included Juilliard, SMU, Carnegie Mellon. And I was at the University of Washington. So, yeah, three years of basically acting training, which was delightful. Because I wasn't good at anything else. It turns out. Cast and doom, film doom, expectations very high. I had signed a contract saying that I wasn't going to be in any other film or television until doom was released. So, I couldn't even work in anything like that. Because, I mean, that was the part of the contractual obligation. So, that was about, about a year and a bit. By the time we finished filming, doom. So, some, some of '83, doom comes out December of '84. I'm, I'm wandering the streets. I'm, I'm in New York City. I'm auditioning for Greece. I'm, I'm trying to figure out, trying to do, keep myself busy and active. Doom comes out, massive failure at the box office. During a time of filming, David had given me Blue Velvet. And they said, take a look at this. I'd like to do Blue Velvet right after we finished in. And I read the script and I was floored by it. I mean, it was just extraordinary. Mind you, this is my second film script that I've ever read. So, I'm like, okay. But I understood it. I got the, I got the journey. I got the story. I had been, become very close with David. So, I understood, you know, as much as I could understand. That was put on hold when Doom came out. Weeks after the movie was released. Suddenly, there were, no, it was no Blue Velvet. There were no, Doom pictures of which I had signed a contract for five. So, I was supposed to do five. We did one and that was it. So, those went away. I had three non-Dune option pictures. We tried to find something. Actually, Blue Velvet fell under the part of one of those. So, I was like, okay, that takes care of that. But we didn't start filming Blue Velvet until I think it was August of '85. So, there's some gaps in there. Let me ask you about that one year kind of holding period where you're, you know, effectively not meant to be publicly seen. But I don't know if that's something that still happens now, but was the intention there to make you arrive as an unknown? Was the intention that you just were being held because you might have to go into sequel production soon? What was the thinking? I think it was, you know, at that time, and I don't think this is really a thing anymore, which was an unknown. We found a complete unknown to play the lead in this, you know, what was meant to be a major motion picture. There were some guys that had been lined up that were in the running, that names that I'd heard of whom I, you know, became friends with later. But the idea, I believe, was let's just introduce him, you know, in Dune for the very first time, which is why I couldn't do, and they said, you can do a play, that's fine, we don't care about that, but anything else would have been, could have potentially preempted that, you know, kind of first exposure. And so there was no, there was no, I didn't have anything to hedge, hedge against, right? I mean, there was nothing left. Had I, let's say I had a chance to do two films or maybe had two films in a TV program around who knows, you know, whatever Dune comes out, doesn't do well, it's like, well, maybe one of these will hit. So you, you know, you're basically just putting money in and hoping that something's going to pay off, right, or pay out, didn't happen. And so I was left pretty, pretty high and dry, not understanding that at the time, of course. But the, but the impact of that was pretty severe. Where were you living? Well I had a great plan, see, I was up in Seattle, I had been working in the theater up there when they found me, went to Mexico City Film Dune. I just went back to Seattle and I said, well, what I can do, because I'm going to be doing not five, non-dune, on five Dune pictures, my life is taken care of, right? I'll just go back to Seattle, a live in Seattle. And then I'll drive, you know, go to go wherever they're filming and I'll just go make the movies and then I'll just, you know, but I'll keep my, my, my home base in Seattle, which obviously was not going to happen. Did you rent an apartment? You're going to your mom's house? Yeah, I had like, you know, I had like a, I had like a little apartment, it was actually the same apartment that I lived in when I was in school, $145 a month. Wow. Yeah, yeah. Single. It was a, what do they call it? It wasn't even a single bedroom. It was like a studio apartment, I think they called it, where you put the, you put your bed in the, and you modified the closet, stuck your bed in it. It was a good sized closet and put your bed in there and then you were good to go. And that suited me fine. So that's kind of where I, where I was hanging out, and when Dune was not well received, as I said, I was actually with my, over in Yakima where I grew up with my dad. And that's when I got the word and that's when everything kind of shifted. And suddenly, you know, I'm going to LA and, and I need to start auditioning and trying to get another job. Yeah, I want to hear about that experience. And, you know, you write about being up for, or at least discussed for, a lot of very momentous, well-known movies at this time. But you're, you're coming off of a film that is not a success. Yeah. But you were, you do carry the movie. I mean, you are the lead of the film. I mean, that's not, yeah. Nothing. There's some value, even of course. It was a disaster. There was some value to that and the fact that I had an agent and I got a good agent and I had a manager and I had a lawyer who I'm still with, leave it or not. Yeah, I'm pretty loyal that way. But and that was it sort of. So I had, you know, I had an opening for meetings and, you know, someone that could sort of pitch me, you know, which was great. So I was coming in with some, you know, some strength. One thing I'm curious about because you write about how you're kind of dropped into this life that maybe you just didn't ever think was, would have ever been possible is, did you feel like a very active participant in the strategy of your career at that time? Because you have all these people who like are working on your behalf. Yeah. Well, the strategy really only happens when things come to you, right? There was no, there was no like, oh, let's try and develop some things. You know, you, you can, but developing something and getting someone actually interested in that really only happens when you've done something that people value, right? And they say, oh, this guy could maybe bring this much money in this. He could do this. So let's, yeah, we'll work with him on this project, see if we can get it somewhere. There was none of that. So it was basically kind of what was available at the time? What scripts were out there? What were the A level projects? Was there a role available? They've been packaged already and then more probably, you know, more of the, you know, B level or supporting or these kind of things somewhere, let's find something, you know. So and things came in, one of the ones I mentioned, and this happened actually after Blue Velvet, because prior to Blue Velvet, the, the Dune, the Duneiverse or that period of time between making Dune and actually not until Blue Velvet came out, was there was just very, very few options to me. Some people were curious, but it was often a strange European, Eastern European film that was being made somewhere in Budapest. Sure. I was just like, I don't know. That's where they're all made now. Yeah, right. Yeah, but that's interesting though, because, you know, you write about a couple of different big films that we can talk about a little bit, but in both of those cases, you're being talked to about the lead of these movies that are true movie star parts, but then you're also saying, well, what would are you considering supporting parts or is your representation telling you, like, you're kind of a clock and you're a movie star. Well, you got to only take the, first in the call she, yeah, it was weird because certainly when, when before Dune came out of the expectations were so high and they were like, this is going to change your life. You're going to be, you know, major movie star and I was like, okay, I don't know. What is that? I have no idea. I have no relationship with Los Angeles. In fact, for the time after we finished filming Dune, I didn't even go to Los Angeles because there was no reason to be there because I couldn't work in the business. I mean, I guess I could have gone around and sort of met people and be seen and I don't know, you know, but I wasn't thinking like that. And so there was a, yeah, there was kind of a, what are we going to do with him type of thing? You know, he said, we have, he has this movie, but then he, but it has, it has no, no credibility within the, within the world of Hollywood, where do we put him? And so they're trying to figure that out. I remember there was one, one thing they were trying to put me with, I was, I think it was Linda Fiorentino and it was a movie called Making Thunderbirds. I don't talk about this in the book, but Making Thunderbirds I think was an even movie and it was like a blue collar kid who was, I think he like took his girlfriend or maybe even like kidnapped a model or something, I did something weird and they were going to drive to L.A. some romantic road trip and they were going to try and make it in the mood. It was just like, no, no. And I love Linda Fiorentino back in the, you know, she was great, but I was like, I don't know what this is. It was like, it just never happened. So that fell apart. Did you feel like you had the personal agency to say like, this isn't for me, even though you were like coming off of something that wasn't a success and you're thinking about your career? It's a good question because I was definitely hesitant, but at the same time I was like, it was a couple of things were working. You know, first of all, I'm a young actor, I'm trained to do repertoire theater, I'm trained to do anything. Sort of like, you can do that role, you can do this role. You can be any one of these type of people. But the reality is it doesn't really work that way in Hollywood, you know, it's like you sort of fit, you gotta fit the outfit, kind of, you know, fit the role. Did the way that David spoke to you about both Dune and Blue Velvet, give you some insight or even like maybe even have some negative impact on how you perceived yourself and like what kind of an actor you should be? Not really. I mean, David was absolutely supportive. I knew I fit into his universe somehow and I realized during the filming of Blue Velvet it really had more to do with I was kind of a guide in a way, you know, he would, he created a very dark universe there, dark world and we needed somebody to sort of take the audience by the hand and say, come on in. And all the same way with Cooper, Agent Cooper, so come on in, you know, we're gonna let's go on this journey together. It's gonna be scary, but I've got you kind of, you know, it's funny to say that. I revisit the film. I maybe I don't want to trample on this part of the conversation yet, but I see the movie differently now having seen it so many times and even having read the book and what you're describing, but we can get to that. Did you feel, well, you also write about in the aftermath of Blue Velvet, you're meeting all these actors, these successful people who you don't know and you feel like you're not a part of their club and you mentioned you weren't in LA in 1984 and you didn't, you were not a part of the community there. So like, what were you doing with your time when you weren't working? I mean, it's a good question because I'm trying to, I spent a lot of time in my garden. You know, it was, and the time you're speaking of specifically, I think, was actually said post Blue Velvet and I met Laura Dern who obviously very, very much a part of the Hollywood world with her parents, Bruce Turnin, Diane Ladd. And she knew all these people and was friendly with them, all the working actors of that time, you know? And I remember we would be out together and I would feel. I was there and I was like, well, I did this movie "Dun" that everybody hated and then we've done Blue Velvet, it hasn't come out yet. I really didn't feel like I belonged anywhere. And so I just, I mean, it was really, I was on the ride with Laura, you know, she was sort of leading the way and I was kind of hanging out knowing, okay, this is all interesting and kind of fun and getting to know Hollywood a little bit, such nice people too. I remember, I mean, they were really, really nice people. But I just didn't know where I fit into this, you know. Yeah, it's interesting the way that you write about yourself and the work that you're doing because it feels so often like the characters that you're playing at this time are in such parallel to the person that you are in time, which is like a little bit alienated, trying to retain your kind of Pacific Northwest genealogy. Yeah. A little surprised by maybe how dark some things are, how disappointing some things are, you know, like, did you, did you have any consciousness of the work and the art being too nervous facing each other? I think at the time, not necessarily, although, although, you know, in, in spending time with, with Laura and opening up another kind of chapter in the acting world of which I was very hesitant to do because I felt like, listen, I've gone through three years, this is a really intensive training. I'm ready for whatever comes, you know, not admitting that, well, there's always room to learn, you know what I mean, and because I didn't want to put my, I felt like I was going backwards somehow, you know, like it was, I'm supposed to be moving forward and getting work and jobs and putting into play the craft, everything that I've learned. Why am I now going back to acting classes and lessons and breaking myself down and trying to figure out other stuff, which, you know, as I've got older, a little wiser, I'm realizing, you know, you're doing that all the time as an actor, but at the time, but at that moment, I had this, I think I had a chip on my shoulder, I was very much like, even though I didn't admit it, I had a, I had a very, I was grumpy, you know. So interesting because that's the opposite of what you're meant to be in blue velvet. Let's, let's, let's talk through it. I know you talk through it many times, but I think I'm going to try to like drill down even further and try to get your to remember some things you don't remember because you've talked over the years about this fateful meeting where you go to Bob's big boy with David and with Laura. And I believe that's the first time you met Laura. Yes. And was David's intention there to see just with this chemistry work as this Sandy and Jeffrey? Yeah, I think so, you know, I was kind of Jeffrey for him. I think I was Jeffrey for him even when we were filming Doon because he gave me the script and I think his idea was this is actually, I went Kyle for Jeffrey. So he, I think he knew that going in. So then it was a question of finding who was going to be the Sandy, the Sandy is Sandy, you know. And I believe, I think because David casts in a very unusual, I think he saw a photograph of Laura and said, oh, and he got a feeling from it, you know. So that was our meeting was to meet her and to see what it was like with all of us together, you know. And if there was a chemistry, you know, chemistry, basically, there's a chemistry meet. And it went very extremely well. I mean, Laura is, yeah, as you know, I mean, she's absolutely delightful. And I think the, the energy started there. And one of the things about David that I learned sort of later, I guess, is that he really, the people that he brings into his worlds, whether it's mostly the ones he writes. So if it's blue velvet, obviously, or wild at heart, or any of the other twin peaks, of course, you kind of the character, you and the character, the person and the character become one in his mind. And so you are that character to him, you know, in a way. I mean, you know, obviously, you're not, but he thinks of you like that. So he was looking at me and Laura and going, that's Jeffrey and Sandy. So we became Jeffrey and Sandy, I think, in that meeting to him. You guys make a connection, obviously. And eventually did end up together romantically. But how much of that is the, the imagination of David Lynch, perceiving you as Jeffrey and Sandy. Right. And then manifesting that. And then in real life, that developing like, did that strike you guys? Did you discuss the psychological impact of that? It was, it was definitely some, the, the, the table was set, you know, in a way. But I think even beyond that, I mean, Laura, she's just an exceptional person. So I recognize that immediately. I said, this is a very, very special person. So the fact that we ended into a relationship, you know, part of it, we were both very young. You're working together. You're supposed to be in a relationship. Things happen. Okay. And we carried on for about four years after that. And she had a tremendous impact on, on my, my life, my career, you know, who I am today. But I think that, yeah, I think that there is a certain kind of encouragement that David gave us. So he certainly wasn't saying, don't, you know, oh, no, stop. Don't get together. No, no, you know, it was, it was any, and it would make him very, very happy. And I think to the point where I'm jumping way ahead to the return now, where she, we're back working together in, in an interesting dynamic between the, between Laura and myself. And I think in his, in 30 years later, in David's mind, he had been thinking about this and just wanting to find a way to bring us back together, both his characters, but also as people. That, the magic of his environment, his world is, it's very special. I don't really know how to describe it. It's unusual. Obviously, part of the, what is so appealing, at least to me, about his work and what I think it resonates with so many people is the, the, that collision of the light in the dark, right? And you describe the dark universe that he's creating, but that there is a genuine sweetness and exploration of Americana and love and all these big ideas. You write in the book about your mom quite beautifully. And she, she read the script. Yeah. And she struggled with the material. Yeah. I think for understandable reasons. I think so. Yeah. But I was hoping maybe you could talk a little bit about just like her impact on you in terms of your taste and when, and then also maybe having the agency to say, like, well, even if you don't approve of this, I feel I need to do this. Yeah. Because I think that that's such a critical station. I have somebody whose mom also introduced him to films and like, I very much relate to the way that you write about that. Oh, cool. Yeah. It was something I didn't really like to talk about for a long time because I felt like, oh, you know, that's not the strong, independent guy, you know, but in fact, she had huge impact on me and my brothers as well. But it was really her, her encouragement in the arts world, theater in particular, being something that she really loved. And I'm guessing, and we never had the discussion, but I'm guessing that she sort of saw me recognized that he, that I had this ability a little bit, maybe in some of the early plays that I did and just kind of kept nurturing that as a, as a possible career. I guess even though we didn't really think about it like that, but she was definitely there kind of fanning the flames of that. Were you a performative little kid? Not really. I was pretty shy. Yeah. And I was pretty, as I read in the book, I was scared of a lot of things and pretended not to be. What do you think she picked up on then that made you, made her encourage you to pursue those things? I think, I like to make people laugh. So there was sort of the makeup for any shortcomings. It's sort of like, you know, it's like the magician look here, don't look here. Yeah. So I think that was part of it. And I think part of it was also, it was something that she probably wanted to do and she didn't. She did it at community theater, stuff like that. She was an amazing pianist and musician. She sang. She was in a couple of the, you know, hometown musicals and the summer and stuff. So I got to see her do it as well. And she brought us into this, we had a wonderful community theater where I grew up. And so we were kind of, we were kind of the little kids running around helping out, you know, during the summer productions and stuff. So the theater was part of our world. And it didn't seem weird to me that it was. And a lot of that was because of her. So I wanted her and my dad to be part of this new journey, you know, this new success, potential success. You know, they read the Dune script and they were all very excited about it. And you know, this is all new happening happening to me from this little town. And and then when he gave me, when David gave me the script of the velvet, I was like, well, I would love for them to read it, give me their thoughts, you know, not really thinking. Maybe that wasn't the best word. Or maybe I should have given her with some pages removed. Yeah. Anyway, and she responded as you would imagine. You know, she was very, very protective of her boys. And and I think a lot of things, you know, aware of the community in which she lived, you know, her her parents were also really a big part of how she presented herself and who she was. And I realized that later, as you get older, you mature and you kind of go, oh, she really, she was like needed to please her parents all the time. And they were tough. My grandparents were tough. Lovely, but tough. Yeah. So I don't know if that factored into year. I'm thinking. No, it does. So much. I mean, I'm thinking specifically. Then I think about some of the things that I'm trying to do is give my daughter the confidence to do things that maybe my parents didn't give me the confidence to do, which I don't know that like that was their fault or anything. They just maybe didn't realize, but so your mom, being an artistic person and identifying that about you and encouraging you to pursue this. But then this confrontation with what you're interested in, what you want to do and almost being adopted by this new family and then that family, having a different perspective on how you should pursue your artistic life is just such an interesting friction. Yeah. That's a really good perspective because it was, David, it was a new, it was a new family, artistic family. And I was scared too, you know, because it was pretty brutal. Obviously, you remember Blue Velvet. And I don't know what I was I was thinking, oh, she's going to be great. So my dad was like, yeah, it's fine, it's good, whatever, it's a total dad response. But she was definitely, but at the same time, she never, she didn't, she was also like, I'm not going to, I don't want to say anything, but her husband, Lonnie, talked to me about it when I asked, because I said, what would you think? And he said, well, you know, yeah, yeah. And of course, this was right in the middle of her battle with ovarian cancer. She was undergoing chemotherapy and I, I didn't even hesitate. I just said, if she's, if this is causing her distress, no, I don't, I don't have to do it, we're not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. And I told David and he understood very kindly and that was it, what was done. And, you know, I, I couldn't get the script out of my head. And I think, I think I grew up a little bit in that time. And I kind of said, you know, I really want to do this. I think there was not a lot of other options and I said, I'm going to do this. And I, you know, I want you to be okay with it. And she gave me her blessing, that's okay. So off we went. And I kind of explained, I said, David's not going to, what you read is not exactly what you're going to see. You know, because it was quite graphic, as you can imagine, and explicit. And that turned out to be very true in the making of the movie, a lot changed throughout the making of it too. Yeah. That's an amazing story. I was very touched by it because it's hard to be independent, you know, to say like, I don't need your entire, like, full blown approval to enjoy something or to, you know, you know, what I'm saying? I do. I do. It was very hard for me. It's still hard for me. You know, I mean, I have very, very much a people pleaser, you know, and this has been kind of a wonderful journey to figure out how not to be so much like that. And I admire people that are, and I write about some of them in the book that are not that way that are, you know, can write out in front and, and I'm like that, I aspire to that. Yeah. One of the things that was interesting about reading you, writing through the making of the film is the way that even though Laura is experienced, but not so experienced, and Isabella Rosalini, who also comes from a filmmaking family, but is not a very experienced actor at that time. No. But she's been a model and she has a very strong perspective on how she thinks things should go during the making of the movie. Yeah. That seems sort of surprising to you where she's responding to David and saying, like, no, it shouldn't be like this. It should be like this. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I don't know what it was like on the set of Dune, but it's almost like you're learning in real time that you have more agency than you realize going into a project. Yeah. Yeah. And that's an ongoing. I'm curious. Interesting. And, and it's of tremendous value. And there was a period of time. But David, it was sort of, I just said, I guess this is how it's meant to be, you know, and I just sort of accept that everything in Dune and certainly with Blue Velvet, I might have an idea or something I would offer as a suggestion, but specifically with David, it's like, I can't think of anything else more interesting than what David is asking me to do. It's like, I don't know. Uh-huh. You know, if I knew that, then I could have had, I could have been really helpful in Twin Peaks when things started to go off the rails, but I, I just didn't really know because it's David. And he's the only one that does this stuff. So I was kind of like, okay, we're going to do it this way. And, and I just, and I began to, in my, in my third film, so that was the hidden whole different scenario. I have some questions about that. Okay. Well, I began to kind of step out a little bit, but literally like, I put a toe in it. Yeah. Well, it does seem like there's one sequence in particular in Blue Velvet where you're like, a little bit unsure, uncomfortable with the way that it might be framed. And so you do give some feedback and you do get effectively what you want, like a David agrees. It was seen with Dennis. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There was a scene with Dennis that was very graphic and it looked very much appeared that there was some kind of rape or something that was going on. And I, I said, David, I think, and it was, again, and I now understand how my, you know, my mom's objection. It's just like it was written very, very specifically. And I said, I think, I'm a little uncomfortable going this far. Can we do it in a way where it's, you know, did it, did it not, we don't know, and let the, let the impact play out the following day, you know, to sort of understand the audience. So I kept the audience a little bit guessing, and he actually said, yes, that's, that's, that's a good idea. So one of my favorite things about, you know, reading your book and, and learning as much as I have about Lynch, like, you know, I grew up really venerating him. And this whole show is, like, attribute to people who make movies, and especially the writer director who is this great visionary. Yeah. And then you hear anybody talk about the making of any movie and things are changed in real time. They're constantly evolving. There's like, and it seems like Lynch would be like, let's, let's do, let's just do this. Let's try this instead of what I thought it was supposed to be. Yeah. Yeah. He was very open to that. Yeah. What is that? Is that intimidating? To try something totally new. No, it's so fun. It's so fun. It's part of the process that I enjoy the most. You know, it's that period of, it's that time of play, right? When you're figuring stuff out. Now, if you, it's a weird, it's a weird, finding levels, right? Because in some actors, I would watch, and I could see that they were pushing against something, or trying something, and I said, that is not in the Lynchverse, Lynchverse, whatever it is. That's not, David's not going to go for that. I, I just knew, you know, and he would, in a very David way kind of bring them back in. Very gently, you know, I just kind of, let's go this way, you know, not this way, let's go this way. And he would nudge you around, nudge, nudge the actor around. But I had an, I guess an intuitive understanding of kind of where he wanted these characters to go, or my character in particular, where to go. And I, I don't know, I love, he's talked about the happy accident, the happy accident, every, everything that we did was, you know, if there was something that changed, he would immediately, he felt it. It wasn't like an intellectual thing. It was like, he felt it. If he didn't know in a moment, what, he was like, I'm going to think about this for a minute. He would literally just sit for a minute quietly and kind of, you could see it. He could see it in his head, working his way through. And he would go, okay, that's what we're going to do. And it was amazing. It was magical. It, even, it seems like all the way to the conclusion of the third act of the movie that he's like, he's not quite sure if what he's imagining is right. And we're going to figure it out as we're going through the process of making the movie, which, like something like Blue Velvet, just you know, having lived with it, it's success for over 40 years, is, it's the Mona Lisa now. You know, it is like, it's a perfect object of art that has been studied and will be studied forever. Yeah, yeah. And even if you're just a little bit younger and you receive it that way, you're told, this is a masterpiece. Right. But then as soon as you get into the text of you spending the time making it, you realize, well, it could have been completely different. Yeah, it's just completely, if someone had woken up and not had their coffee or something that it might not have turned out the way that it did. I think that's filmmaking, you know, honestly. I mean, less in television because it's a little more of a machine. But in filmmaking, particularly as we're talking about, like, an altur, you know, who's a writer, director, and the challenge, of course, is to steer it through the storm, you know, and don't hit the rocks and, you know, make sure you kind of, but you have to try different things and you have to be comfortable and confident, which David was, you know. And the beauty of it is, I didn't really, you know, I've started with David Lynch, Dune, Blue Velvet. And I'm like, oh, this is filmmaking, you know, then I'm off on the weeds and I'm like, wait a minute. This is different. And I don't know. I don't know what's happening here, you know. Can you tell me a little bit about Wilmington, North Carolina? Yeah. That's when you made the movie. Yeah. It shot a film in Mexico, so it's not unusual to be traveling and going somewhere new. But yeah, how long were you there? What does it like to be on location in that way? It was. Obviously, a completely different experience in Mexico City, which was, I mean, we were like a fish out of water on that, but you have this family that exists, which is beautiful, you know, of all the actors and the crew and everybody. So everyone's kind of hanging together. So you have, you just like, you liken it sort of to the circus, you know, you bring the circus and it comes to town and they have, you know, this is what they see. set up. Blue Velvet completely different, much smaller. Obviously Wilmington, it's odd in its own way because it's a small town. It's a resort town on the beach. And then downtown is like once darker, more mysterious, slightly scary place. So two different communities. I had done exactly as I said, I've sort of picked up, you know, my life. I brought my, you know, I brought my bike out. I brought, you know, my music stuff out. I brought, I mean, I brought everything, like I was bringing my life with me. Because that's what I thought you did, you know, and I set up there. And, um, and off we went, I came in about a month early. And I just thought, well, I just, I'll just kind of get tuned in. And they were like, um, they were like, well, um, we now have to pay the studio for the room that you're going to be in. I'm like, oh, doesn't that, what? This is sort of what I was curious about. Most is sort of like the vagaries of this thing where you're like, you think that you have some ability to just control what you do, but everything costs money. And I'm like, oh, sorry. They're like, no, no, it's okay. It's okay. I'm sure it was, you know, I wasn't that much. But yeah, you basically set up, you set up camp, you know, which I was kind of used to because I'd been doing summer stock and I've done some plays and stuff. And he kind of, you know, you moved to a small town, you set up your little area. And then off you go, and I still do that, you know, when I go even to a hotel now, if I'm, even if it's just one day, I'll set up my little space and everything and I'll have everything just as I need it. And I want it. And, you know, and from here, I can work, you know. And that was definitely blue velvet. But the apartment that I chose was a lot different than the bed and breakfast where Laura Dern and Isabella was a thing. I was a lap of luxury. So I spent a lot more time over with Laura than I did in my little povl. Interesting. One thing I was curious about revisiting the film is you're such a great camera subject. But you studied in the theater and then types of acting are very different. Yeah. That's interesting. You say that because I, I mean, I was always a pretty, I wasn't very bombastic. I'll say age and I'm not sort of big. I'm a music man kind of guy. I'm, I'm much quieter. You're still very still. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, which is important in movies. It is. And in some of that, in some of that in Dune, it was just fear, really, because I didn't want to do something wrong. So I said, just stay here. Part of it was the costumes because they were truly difficult to wear. Oh, yeah. The green suit, I was like, you know, the collar and the thing. And I was just like this. I said, well, don't move too much. But I, I didn't really know what I was, I didn't really, I didn't know what I was doing. I was honestly, I mean, I can, you know, you can create the character you're in the scene. And I got to say I'm working with some pretty extraordinary actors and actresses in that. So kind of following their lead, you know, everyone from Patrick Stewart, Linda Hunt, obviously Francesca, everybody was very experienced, much more experienced than I was. So I just kind of, you know, follow what they were doing. And Blue Velvet, most of it was with Laura who's such a naturalistic actress. I just was like, I said, Oh, oh, this is nice. On front of the camera, you can just actually talk to the person and forget the cameras there. Because I'm doing, I'm very, very, very, very conscious of where the camera is. And I don't know what's going on, right? But Blue Velvet was kind of disappeared. And I was like, okay, you know, there were also situations, particularly the whole stuff with Isabella in her apartment when I've got no clothes on. And I'm just like, well, this is what I would do in this situation. Yeah. Yeah. Do I leave my socks on? Yeah. So you just, you know, you're kind of, it's just naturalism. Yeah. Yeah. It was very real. You know, and all the stuff with Dennis, I wouldn't do anything, but just, you know, shaking in my boots, really, whenever he was just near. And he was just absolutely most delightful, most professional, coolest, because you can't, you know, cut, you'd be like, he'd be like, you know, back to Dennis. Yeah. I'd love to hear you talk about him a little bit because that period of time is so pivotal for him in his career because he comes out of rehab. Yeah. And he is, you know, he's had a very complicated reputation. He's a bit of a terrorizer in the 60s. And then he's in some massively important movies. Yeah. And then he kind of thinks quiet down a little bit for him in his career for a little while. And then 86 is a huge moment where he's in a bunch of movies, all of a sudden in a row, where he becomes back in the kind of firmament of Hollywood. But Frank Booth, I mean, that's in the first sentence of his obituary, you know, like that is a legendary character. And it's such a big and scary performance. Yeah. And you're in your second movie. And the whole point of the movie, the whole point of the dynamic is he's scaring you. Yes. And he did. Yeah. Did you speak to him at all before the making of the movie? I got him. I met him on the back lot. I'll never forget the day. I write about it in the book. I never forget about him. I was hanging out with some of the sparks and the electrics. And just on the back of the truck, back lot, you know, and he was what came out walking out towards me. And I remember what he was wearing. And he just said, Hey, I just want to introduce myself. Then this opera really looked forward to working with you. And I was like, he's looking forward to work with me. You know, my, I'm just, I'm going, Hey, thanks. Thanks, man. I'm looking forward to it too. What do you say? You know, and, uh, and he, he was very, very upfront about how grateful he was to have the opportunity. He said to David, there's a famous story where he called, said, I am Frank Booth, which David was like, okay, and then is that funny? And that was really, it was in the restaurant when he gets that call when you guys are together. No, no, no, but he shared that with you at the restaurant. And it was, um, you know, he took, he took a period of his life and then channeled it into that character, which is wonderfully, I think a wonderfully healthy way to sort of deal with, you know, part of his life that he probably wasn't that proud of. And, and he was, yeah, he was just truly a force of nature. Yeah, he's, he's absolutely amazing in the movie. Yeah. Um, um, the movie plays to me now, having seen it a bunch of times. As you mentioned, yeah, you sort of, you see it differently, so what are you talking about? I do maybe before, but, or are you thinking about blue velvet? No, I was thinking about blue velvet. I mean, seeing it for the first time as whatever a teenager or whatever it was, it's just so bracing, right? It's very shocking. And it, it violates you in a way. And it's, it's, do it, which is what it's intended to do. But now I only see the movie as a loss of innocence movie. It's not, I see it as not just like a man at war with the two sides, the light in the dark, but like Jeffrey kind of can never go back really after he's seen what he's seen. Yeah. And I do see it in parallel, as I was saying, to your experience. And like, I'm wondering if maybe even making that movie, which is must have been wonderful for you in so many ways over time. Right. But did it like, did it ruin anything in your career? Because it's such a special thing. And it parallels the experience that you're having in some way. It was. No, I don't think I think it was the opposite, actually. I think it sort of gave me hope after Dune. Because I watch it now and I, I just watched a clip of the scene in front of the church, you know, or, you know, the robins come down and Laura's got this speech. And I sort of remembered it being, oh, this is so corny. Oh, my God. You know, and I'm like thinking about, and I've also remembering it took Fred Elms like most of the night to light the trees. I mean, it looked beautiful, but I'm like, we got to do some acting here. At some point, you know, the sun's coming up. You know, let's get this. And it was a very, very, you know, they kind of banged off the two's, the shots, you know, to mean. And, but I went back to look at it. And I, I said, oh, that's a really good scene. I said, and I said, I do some good work in that scene. Laura does some great work in that scene. And I was like, oh, and I think it sort of brought me back to like, oh, no, I can't do this. I am more I'm supposed to be because it, you know, the dude pretty much rocked everything. And so when Blue Velvet came out and early, early reviews, there was people didn't know what to think of this movie. And they just, that was sort of it. So it was sort of dismissed, retested poorly. Very poor. Not a huge hit right away. Some negative reviews. But then there were, there were also huge defenders of it. Suddenly, yeah, Paul and Kale, in particular, wrote about it. And, and it looked a groundswell. Basically, you know, um, suddenly, you know, college is kids, you know, everybody was like, hey, wait a minute. This is, this is amazing. This is something different. This is something we'd never seen before. We love this. Similarly, a racer had actually in that way. Yeah. Where it kind of came along and people didn't know what to make of it. And then I built this and this happens with David all day of its work, right? Yeah. I mean, pretty much all the way through. I mean, maybe not straight story. You know, that would be right when you can see. There's a big cult of it now, though. But there was a big color. Yeah. Yeah. But I, two weeks weirdly was the one thing that was like upon arrival, people are like, wow, when that hit, yeah, that pilot was and still remains one of, I mean, one of the things probably I'm most proud of. Um, and, you know, it's just a 22 day, 23 day shoot, two hour with a color backdoor pilot. Yeah. If it doesn't get picked up, it'll be a movie of the week. And, um, look what happened. Tell me a little bit about the period after you finished filming the movie before it came out of the blue velvet or, yeah, blue velvet. Were you like, I'm, we did it. This is going to be great. We, I'm worried about booking your next job where you just like David's guy. And I got to hope he keeps thinking. Why do you think about it? I just, I had such a great experience. And, and then, and I met Laura. And so we kind of started up. And so I was so happy, you know, I had a new relationship and we were trying to figure ourselves out and we got a place together. And then shortly after that, David moved in 'cause he had an apartment and he was renovating and he didn't have a place and he wanted to stay with us. We were like, okay. So we stayed with us, which is crazy. When you wake up in the morning and you walk in the kitchen, you're sort of blurry. I think there's David making coffee. You're like, "Hey, kale." But it was also a time of, 'cause that blue velvet hadn't come out yet. So there was still the taint, the stain, whatever, of dune that was kind of affecting me. So there was still not much in the way of opportunity. You write in the book how you read for, had meetings about platoon and top gun among other presumably other movies. Platoon was one of those non-dune option pictures 'cause at that time it was with Deino's company. - Right, Deino Deino. - Deino Deino's interests. - Oliver and I met, Oliver and his wife and I met. We had a lunch together and he really thought I would be right for the role of Chris. We talked about it extensively. I read the script, I love the idea. It was so exciting. And then we were talking about the idea of going to the Philippines in two weeks of learning how to be a Marine, you know, or a. - You went to L.D. I, yeah. - Yeah, I said, thank God. I would have been challenging. But I also kind of, I resisted a little bit. I said, you know, I said the end of the movie. It's like, you remember. I'm sure he shoots Tom. It's like, okay, and Tom's, you know, he's bad. He's evil incarnate. But I'm like, he's become him. I'm like, I don't know, he's a way that could be. He could sort of be more heroic. But that was the role of Willem Dafoe's role, of course, was that. But so I just kind of was like, I don't know. And Oliver, you know, this is a pre-Oliver that we know. And I was like, man, I don't know. I hesitated basically. - Yeah. The movie didn't move on to somebody else. And then, you know, the rest of his history, as they say. - Yeah. I bring both of these up because I think before Blue Velvet comes out, Platoon and Top Gun are released. And so obviously, Cruz is already on his way. But that's a stratosphere moment for him where he just goes up and never comes back down. And Charlie Sheen also in Platoon, you know, his career really takes off after that too. - Huge. - And I'm, I guess I'm wondering about your mentality where you're like, I didn't, you had to hurt those. - Get those. - You know, I was like, oh, ouch. Yeah, but at the same time, I was like, well, I'll have my chance. And I sort of was thought, you know, the eternal optimist. And not long after those came out, you know, a few years, I was like, you know, I don't know if, I was mentally, emotionally grown up enough to handle that whatever that, whatever that was that happened to those guys, you know, I don't know. And then further that is, is like, well, had that happen. Then a whole bunch of other stuff wouldn't have happened, you know, so you have that kind of looking back going regrets. You know, but still I have this also. - It's interesting what time does too, because if you talk about that like 12 month period of time, you could make the case that Platoon, Top Gun, and Blue Velvet are the three most significant films. One from a box office perspective, Platoon wins best picture, kind of sets stone off into this incredible stretch of filmmaking. - Yes. - And then Blue Velvet is a movie that, you know, in the annals of filmmaking history, I think has a very big place. And, but in three different ways, and the idea of you being proximate to all three of them is really, really interesting for such a young and inexperienced person. - Yeah. - I mean, I don't think I was alone, honestly. I mean, maybe by bringing Blue Velvet into that, yeah, because I don't think there were a lot of people that David was, I mean, I know he's thinking about other people when I had backed out, but I don't think anyone seriously. But those, yeah, those were two very, I mean, very different roles, expectations. The Top Gun was also, I mean, honestly, it was not for the Tom Cruise role. It was for the role of Goose, so it was a supporting role. And, but just to be part of that would have been really, but I also think, I don't know if Tony Scott, and I would have really, I think he would have just sort of looked at me like, what are you doing here? - He was tough. - He was really tough. I mean, he was, yeah, and I was like, I was sort of, you know, some artsy kids, sort of, you know, I mean, I fancy myself tough, but I was not. - Yeah. - I was not, yeah. Did you ever feel like, you know, you move back in with, you move in with Laura and Los Angeles and David's living with you and you're meeting all these young actors and was there a moment in that period of time where you felt like, okay, I do belong here, like I do. I am. - Really? No, no, I never really felt like I was, I was part of this group. They were also cool. They all knew each other and they seem to be busy and working and doing stuff. And I was kind of like, wow, that's great. You know, I was like, just trying to get a meeting, you know? Trying to get in to read. And it was challenging because I started to, you know, again, I started to sort of resent things a little bit. And then I started like, pretended like I didn't care. I say, well, well, they don't care. Then I'm, school, I don't care either, you know what I mean. I'm, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm just, I'm not gonna prepare for this. I'm just gonna go and wing it, you know what I mean. And they should cast me. That was my attitude, right? And you're like, just because they should cast me. You know, had this weird attitude. And I think still carrying the, you know, the chip, I guess, on my shoulder. And it took a while to sort of go through that, get rid of that. Do you remember when it felt like Blue Velvet was gaining a meaningful reputation? Slow and steady. - Yeah. - Was it years later when you thought? - Yeah, yeah. It took a while. It took a while. And, but the, and this, you know, when it came out, then then the attitude was, oh, he's this, you know, what's the quote from the Rolling Stone, a kid in the basement, he spends all the time in his basement or something like that. And I was like, I said, that's not really me, but that's what that, what I'm being identified with. So I'm like, okay, you're the nafe, you're the engineer. - I'm a engineer. - I'm a guy that's, you know, likes to dark things and is kind of, you know, as a perverted side and all this. And I'm like, I mean, okay. So things, you know, start to, the magnet, you know, so you start to draw those kind of things to you. And, and one of those that came to me was the one, Steven Soderbergh's Sex Lesson videotape. And again, a script, very interesting. I'm really, I was, I was really, wow, this is very cool, very intense. And I was like, but I can't, and I was getting some advice from, you know, that you said, you can't go and do another character that has sexual hang-ups and all that kind of stuff. So I was like, okay, you know, and I ended up not pursuing that. And I can't remember if Steven had said he wanted me for the role or I was just in consideration, you know, strong consideration, but I removed myself from the equation. Of course it went on to, you know, huge acclaim. And thank God Steven and I are good friends now. So everything is good. - Yeah, I mean, so much of the book is about, like one chapter is, we made an incredibly important movie that people love and then the next chapter is this extraordinary sliding doors of what could have happened. - Yeah. - If something else transpires. - Yeah. And obviously that's true for a lot of successful working actors. - Yeah. - That's the job. - I'm not the only one that has gone through that kind of experience with people. And Ethan and Ockhawk and I talk about it too. Just things that he was up for as well. But he didn't get. And then the things he did get, you know, and how they have influenced and how he's moved through that, you know. I guess the most important thing that you move through it. - Right. - One of the things that I'm always so interested in with actors in general is the ability to accept no. So like the not getting the job, which most people, work a day people, myself included. I come here and I do this every day, you know. No one says, don't do that today. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - But you like can pour yourself into something, prepare your mind to become somebody. - Yeah. - And then they say, not you. - Yeah, it's really hard, it's really hard. And I don't deal with it well in the beginning for a long time. Because I'm like, I can do anything. And why isn't it me, you know? Or it's like, I don't have that thing. I don't have that specialness. So you're like, okay, all right, hmm. How do I, where am I gonna put this? You know, I mean adequate, I'm lacking something, you know. And that's a harder one. And that's the one I think I said, oh, then I don't care. If they're gonna think like that. You know, I made it very personal, which is not what you want to do, but it's hard not to. It's hard not to. And every actor has their own method, you know, for processing that and dealing with that, so that was mine. One thing related to that is, it seemed like at first, you were perceived as a certain kind of, you know, type cast in a slightly more innocent way. And then you're worried about being type cast in the innocent with the dark side way. A lot of actors obviously resist being typecast broad. But did you feel like you were making choices to actively upend the way that people saw you was trying to? Yeah, but nobody was buying Was that frustrating? Yeah, yeah, you're very frustrated. It was very like You know, you're just like I want to be this you know, I want to be the hero good I want to you know Save the day about I do all that stuff and that was not gonna be the that was not my and I tried I tried a couple You know, there was a I think it was a showtime movie two-part thing Trying to be the you know kind of the tough operator guy, you know, and you know, don't bother going out to find Okay, I'm terrible. They're terrible. You were the guy with the guy with the gun. You know in the leather jacket and not good You know, not good. I'll probably will watch you Just my nature now that I don't exist. You've got to find them first. I have some skills Yeah, I wanted to ask out the hidden quickly too though because that's another movie that you know It seemed like maybe you didn't have the greatest experience on it, but it's now does also have its own cult It's people really like that. They love it. It's so 80s. Yeah, it's got such great stuff and it it's it's the sci-fi Cop buddy So slight horror element to it that was happening, you know, you think about I think it was lethal weapon Was that the one that just or was right around that time? So the buddy in a cop buddy thing and and and I There were I I really liked parts of it and then parts of it. I I Didn't really like so much. I was working with Michael norie Michael had a he had a tough time with our director I was kind of like, well, you know, you guys are really good together though. It was nice Well, we knew each other before we had chemistry It's a great scene at the dinner table where you're telling the story of what happened your family. It's just amazing And Michael's reaction. Yeah, I was just looking at it yesterday That was Michael was great in that. He was great No, he was and he was the he was the he had his own stuff You know because he came out of flash dance and I mean all right, and he's still trying to you know kind of find his I you know identity in a way So everybody struggles with with something But that was fun because that was fun to sort of I got to do something a little bit different It was my first time working not working with David So that was that was challenging The director was you know, he was a nice guy, but but he was slightly odd And and didn't always have the best answers, but I I had answers Sort of you know, so I said oh, I I don't know or I would ask him. I said I'm in this scene, but I'm just standing what am I you know, what's what's what's happening here? And he's like, I don't know and I was like I was like all right Well, I'll finger up something and that's what I where I had the scene I know he brings me the aspirin and and it was sort of a callback to the Alchiceltzer And so I take that sprint and I just drop it in the water I'm waiting for it to do a thing and it doesn't so it's a little bit of a duggie moment You know like oh, I guess this isn't how it works here on this planet, you know So it's it's got a bunch of that stuff in it and I did get to do one really cool thing In the hidden when I'm chasing the alien and I'm on the rooftop and I'm going after it And I remember when Mel Gibson and this is that is how my brain works So I'm watching him and I think it was lethal weapon He's chasing somebody's time run after them and he's gunning. He takes the gun and he ejects the cartridge as he's running It goes like this. Well, it doesn't look at it. It's cartridges pulls another cartridge snacks again and goes like that And I'm like I'm doing that and I had I got a chance to do that It took me a minute. It took me a couple takes because I was like oh god Try again, you know what anyway. It's so funny because that's it's the same thing as you were describing with David It's like it's play, you know, you're just you're having fun making a movie. It's play. Yeah It's a great stretch in your life. I appreciate you being so open about it Because you you do great work and it's like you write about it very personally In a way that I feel like many actor memoirs Are protecting of things from that time and you know you talk about your mom and your mom being sick in that period of time too And so it just must have been such a tornado in that in that 18 months It was it really was and and I think for the longest time I didn't talk I didn't want to talk about it. I you know you you feel like but you got to protect yourself and Taking on the book and the idea of a memoir and I thought about it and I said the only way I really think this has got value Is if if there's a journey there's a little to some lessons But to have the lessons you have to have the the not good stuff for the challenging stuff for the stuff You're not proud of and then you like and I found my way through to this and I think I've become a better person And I thought okay, that makes sense to me and I get to tell this kind of crazy story on the way every actor has crazy Every actor has a crazy story, you know And then people I talked to people that you know, and I say you should you should write Something you should write something you know because it's really it's help it's healthy You know, I just am like amazed by the recall. I cannot remember lunch three days ago at all And so there is a specificity to do the work when you're doing it. It's it's Yes somehow Like don't ask me stories on either side of the ones that I tell because I don't remember but those ones I remember and it's and I Guess their moments where there was you know something was deeper than Not, you know, I mean so I had had a resonance And such resonance that it's actually stayed in there and and I get a call back when I start thinking about it So I said well, I'm not a journal person, but those seem to have value. So let's talk about those I told you before he started that I wanted to do the one year can see with you because I want people to read the book and because you obviously like you have crossed paths with The doors twin peaks sex in the city like the massive cultural experiences So there's a lot more than people should check out in the book the one thing I was asked you about before we go is yeah podcasting What was I thinking? No, no, no, you know from one to another. I'm curious like how Why are you doing it? What are you getting out of it? What's the intention? What is it teaching you about yourself? It's um, this is all yeah all the questions that come up the um I love people. I love talking. I love I love sitting around sort of Discussing particularly the creative side of things Um So I'm like, well that I like that um The other thing is I don't know much about I didn't I'm getting better about what's coming You know who are these names that I don't Recognize I don't know, you know, what are they doing and And what moves them and what are they passionate about and you know and and you know, let me just so I'm sitting down with Grants so much suns 18 the people that I'm talking to are usually there 20s maybe late 20s maybe early 30s Um, and I'm like What's it been like for you, you know Um, how free are they how tired? I know just just and thinking back to when I was that age But I really want to know what's driving them, you know, so we sit and really just kind of do this. We just have a conversation Talk about Their stuff I read you know a lot about them before I do it There's some things that pop out and I'm like no wait a minute Tell me about this because and it's something that they that usually they they Sort of catch them off guard a little bit right because it's not like tell me about your latest project and tell me about it I mean, you know, I want to know like What were you thinking when that happened and this stuff? So it's about that. That's really interesting because you know As somebody who does this for a living like people want to narrativeize their lives in a very discrete way But if you ask them a question that they have not prepared for that's the best way to Break up their story. I think so they're trying to tell you they're comfortable talking to anybody and some some Some will and and I would not have been at that age necessarily. I would have been really protective and trying But but at the same time I realized I'm kind of but I can't help it. I say stuff that I shouldn't say so I think I've just given into that now and just said, you know, this is How I thought. This is how I think this is who I am and I'm okay with it You're a very good storyteller We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers. What's the last great thing they have seen are you it? Are you an avid watcher of new stuff? Not That much, you know, I mean, I really have to be I've to be honest I travel so much so I see a lot of stuff in the plane. I would just finish last night movie. This is you know Fresh off the presses movie called Zulu tear with this from oh the older film is it Richard Fleischer? Who made that movie? I don't even remember yeah, but Michael introducing Michael Kane Oh, that gives you that credit is that skid introducing Michael Kane? Wow And I was like and I watched this movie. I don't know why I just popped up and I said, I you know I've heard about it I don't know they they say it was kind of the battle sequences were sort of memorable and it was one of the early time we're early location based films right um so that's that's the last thing Was it where did you want like service? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, that's interesting. I know the movie I've not seen it's like early 60s. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, and how is Michael Kane? He was actually very good. He got better In it No, I could see some scenes where I was like I said and then and then other scenes where I was like oh yeah I seem to be finding his way Do you watch that way? Where you're looking at I can't I can't yeah, I do I watch it. I know a lot of different Love I love it when I forget and I'm just like wow that's what's gonna say does it ruin the act of enjoying these things? No, cuz it's just something I'm like I'm curious about that choice and I'm like oh my god. How do they play that? And that's a bold choice and I said I don't think I would have been I you know you start evaluating kind of what maybe what you would have done um What the director did you know just stuff you know I'm thinking about stuff I don't know if you can come up with this quickly, but I'm curious is there like a recent choice that you watched an actor make That you're like wow, I can't believe they did that or I'm amazed by that there was one little thing that I remember I was watching um I think it was before sunrise. I went back to watch it again With Ethan and Julie And in one moment, Ethan is there, I think they're getting off the train. At some moment, he turns, Ethan turns, and he's sure it is sort of tucked in, but part of it is hanging out the back a little bit. And I know Ethan, and I said, he did that on purpose because it just says in that moment, Oh, he's a little haphazard. He's a little, not, Slavenly's not the word, but he's like, unkempt a little bit, you know, just a little, not everything is quite, you know, tight organized. And I said, I bet he, I bet he did that. Did you double confirm with him or not? No, I haven't yet. I haven't yet, but I'm going to ask him about it. That's great. That's all those are both just phenomenal films and, and Ethan's relationship with Richard Linclater, Linclater, very special as well, but that was, yeah, that was, that was something I just clocked. It's very observant. Kyle, this was an absolute delight. Thank you very much. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Memory Lane. Okay, thank you to Kyle. Crazy. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders. Thanks to Lucas Kavanaugh for his production support. Thanks to them both killing it on social media right now, helping us out. Yeah. Thank you so much, guys. You're doing a great job, brother. Thank you to you. You're so welcome. Thank you to the fine people of San Francisco who we will see very shortly. That's true. We're going to visit them and we'll spend a couple of days there showing films, speaking of films. We'll have a special guest with us. And anything you want to say before you go. Where should we have lunch? Dinner recommendations are not really available and or I'm sick. I'm never letting you play a trip again. Okay. See you next time.