‘You Called Me a CHILD KILLER!’ Norman Finkelstein vs Israeli Activist | Marwan Barghouti Son Speaks

After World War II, my parents loved the Germans. We didn't just hold the German government accountable. We held all the Germans accountable. And I don't see why now we have to adopt a double standard and say, "It's only Netanyahu and the Israeli people bear no responsibility, no culpability." No, I'm sorry, you do bear culpability. You're in Israeli sitting on this panel. You've just had normal thinkers to say, "Israel is a nation of child killers." Am I a child killer? I would say the higher probabilities, yes. You understand how unhinge you are. Did you serve in the IDF? I served as a humanitarian soldier. Where your propaganda is during the genocide, that doesn't make you much different than gerbals. Well, coming up, we will return to the issue of Ed Sheeran's self-inflicted psychodrama and the growing claims about censorship for artists who say free Palestine plus we'll debate another perilous moment for the Middle East, as President Trump says. He's deciding whether to wipe out Iran. But first, joining me right here in the Uncensored studio is political scientist, professor. Normal thinkers too. Well, normal. Welcome to Uncensored. In the studio. Thank you. A rare honor. Thank you for having me. It's great to see you. Before we get into the interview, you know, I was watching you do a clip of your appearing at an event here while you've been over. And the adulation that comes your way from a section of society is palpable. How do you feel about that? For me, it's actually, and I'm not putting on a pose. It's for me a burden because it means I have a much bigger responsibility. It means I have to study harder. It means I have to be more intense. It means taking on responsibilities, which at my age, are not easy to bear. So even though, of course, I appreciate the appreciation. My first thought is, "Norm, you have to read more." "Norm, you have a lot more work to do." So, the appreciation comes with the realization. You're reaching a broader audience. You can have more impact, and to be more impactful, you have to work harder. Have you at any stage of your career ever been through a period, quite like this, that's in your wheelhouse? I would say it's a combination of two things. One, it's an accumulation, it's incremental. I started off with a small audience. I worked hard. I worked very hard. And my credibility increased, and you can say to some extent, my indispensability increased. Because I knew more. It's 10 years, then it's 20 years, then it's 30 years, and now it's 40 plus years. But the second aspect, of course, is what happened in October 7, which catapulted Gaza to the center stage. And it marked a huge change in public opinion. People were very angry. People were indignant at how governments were carrying on. So, I'm a product of hard work, plus coincidence circumstances, in this case, the Gaza genocide. The interesting thing I think about the narratives in October 7, is that to start with, not exclusively, it has to be said. But there was broad horror, shock at what had happened. A lot of support for Israel, and for Israelis, who'd been massacred that day. I think that all of that is undeniable. And, you know, for a long time on this show, I got a lot of criticism from Pope Panastinian guests for saying that Israel had not just a right, but a duty to defend itself. And as time wore on, and I saw the full scale of the response from Israel, in my belief that it was disproportionate group, and it was a degree that now I've been very openly critical about what this Israeli government has been doing in the name of its population. We're facing two critical elections, actually, in many ways. One in Israel, one in the United States. What do you think is going to happen in these two elections? And how materially different could things be for the Israel, Hamas, conflict, the war in Gaza? General aspirations of any kind of peace in the region? On the case of Israel, I do not have high expectations simply because it is a democratic society for the Jewish population. It is, which means the governments inevitably are reflective of the population, again, Jewish population. And all the opinion polls showed throughout the Gaza genocide that enjoyed whole support, you could find, in any poll, no more than 5% of Israelis believed that Israel was using too much force in Gaza. So to the extent that whoever wins, or even whoever loses, across the spectrum, is reflective of that public opinion, it's very unlikely that anything significant will change. There may be more deference paid to Western sensibilities, not all, not. I think there's still a way in the one that public opinion has been moving warringly fast against Israel. I mean, I never thought the time would come in America where more than, you know, 2,000 or 3/4 now of Americans have a negative view of Israel. I didn't think that would happen in my lifetime. And yet here we are. You know, Israel, this Israeli government has made the state of Israel become increasingly a pariah. Do you think they know this? Do you think they care? Do the people really understand this? Or is the media in Israel so pro-wast been happening, they kind of. they sort of fall through the cracks? I think that the Israelis, first of all, they have that siege mentality. The whole world is against us. So this just for them, their reaction is confirmation that the whole world wants the Jews dead, as he said sometimes. It'll only make a difference when there are real consequences. Right now, the consequences are, you're not exactly welcome around the world, which isn't the end of the world if you're in Israel. If the consequences become real, then I believe they will react as any population would if they. What would you like those consequences to be? Not to jump the gun, but I kind of agree with Ed Miliband. Ed Miliband said in his last speech, he said that the UK is realigning itself in a very critical respect. We're going to now stand with, align ourselves with, anchor ourselves in international law. That's what he said. He said all the settlements are illegal. It's not some settlements, settlers can stay, and some can leave. No. He used the figure of 770,000 illegal settlers. That means all the settlers in East Jerusalem, illegal. All the settlers in the West Bank, illegal. The next thing he said was very surprising. First of all, I was surprised that the 770,000 figure, because it's real easing their supporters always like to separate out the settlers in East Jerusalem from the other settlers. He did not. Then he said, "We support the ICJ opinion. The occupation is illegal." That was a historic moment. Why? The essence of that July 2024 International Court of Justice opinion was monumental. Let's call it momentous. What did it say? It said, "The days of negotiations are over. The days of the peace process are over. The days of how many settlers will stay and how many will leave. Where should we redraw the border? All of that is over." The ICJ said, "Israel has only one right at this point, and that right is to pack up and leave." They were very precise. They said that several times you have to leave the entirety of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and Gaza, including all the settlers must leave. Now, Ed Miliband said, "We support that." Now, of course, he didn't spell it out as I did, but I know that opinion very well. That's what the opinion said. "I'll assume he's either read the opinion in full, or his international law experts briefed him on it." Then he said, "And I believe you will be surprised." He said, "We believe it's plausible Israel commit war crimes." But then he immediately said afterwards, "We will wait for the ICJ's opinion." And whether or not they committed genocide, that's still forthcoming. He said, if the ICJ finds that Israel committed genocide, he said, we will support that decision. And then he further said, we want and we will demand accountability. If you committed genocide, you have to be held accountable for that genocide. So all told what Ed Miliband did was to say, we are now on board fully with the law. And what comes with that is, if they don't enforce the law, and for your listeners, allow me to just state it, the ICJ said, Israel has the withdrawal from the whole of the occupied territories as rapidly as possible. Now if they refuse to leave, they are lawbreakers. And then you have to bring to bear the full international mechanisms available, the General Assembly and the Security Council, which is what the ICJ said, to force them to leave. That has to mean sanctions. There's no getting around that. And they say, we're not leaving, you're breaking the law. So the slogan henceforth, in my opinion, must be very simple, straightforward. Enforce the law. If that's the position of Miliband and if that's the position of those who support the Palestinians, I believe a formidable force can develop and force Israel to withdraw, which goes back to your original question. If that force is brought to bear in the form of sanctions, say, then I think Israel will have very little maneuverability. What significance, if any, would Donald Trump and the Republicans losing control of Congress in the midterm elections have on all of this? Well, what I mentioned with Ed Miliband, it was quite interesting, and I'll get right back to it. During the parliamentary debate, the conservatives tormented him and they said, you know, basically what they said was, you know you're just doing this for votes. You know you have constituencies who are very angry and dignified, outraged by how labor carried on during the Gaza genocide. So you're just doing it for votes. And I thought to myself, hey, that's actually a good thing. It means people can influence policy. Now pre-figuring the Miliband or the current government change, of course, was, of course, the US. You know, two or three years ago in the US, if you had a pro-Gaza plank, it sunk your campaign. By 2025, a pro-Gaza plank buoyed your campaign. It lifted it. There were many people, maybe they would have won, maybe they wouldn't have, but certainly being pro-Gaza brought them over the finishing line. There's no question in my mind. So what happened here is an echo of what happened in the United States, where there are really many candidates, even at high levels, like Senate and governor, where the Gaza issue has turned into a vital force to gain election. So I think it's a positive development, for sure. I also want to say, in the case of Miliband, of course, he's a politician, for sure. And of course, as a politician, there's going to be a certain dilution of principle as you navigate the political landscape. However, I happened to have known his father, Ralph Miliband. He was a fixture on the left, a very smart guy, very decent guy. And there were certain moments in the parliamentary exchange after Miliband speech, where you saw, maybe a little bit of the heart of Ed Miliband and not just the politician, allow me to give you a couple of examples. First on the question of the world's central kitchen, right? So three brits were killed, you're remembering the delivery of the food. So during the parliamentary debate, one of the persons asks Ed Miliband, he says to him, "Well, you know, Israel has said it's not going to carry out any further investigations, places over, no crime was committed." And then Ed Miliband responds, "You know how he responds?" He said, "You know, that makes my blood boil." And then he said, "Usually a head of state says Israel should carry out another investigation, it has to be a full and fair investigation." He didn't say that. He said, "I think they co-bloodedly killed them." I was very surprised. Of course they co-bloodedly killed them, but it's unusual the hair ahead of state say it. And then he kept saying, "The conditions in Gaza know." He said, "Attrocious, appalling, unspeakable." That's not the current party line. If you listen to people like Nikolai of Lebanon said, "I think it's because of Israel that humanitarian aid is not getting in." And he said, "I think it's part of their strategy." So at certain points when he went sort of off-script, it showed, I believe it showed, the son of Ralph and Mary, I believe his mother's name is Mary and Ralph it. I remember in one day where there was a question about whether there was starvation in Gaza. And I remember you got kind of indignant. And he said, "They haven't let anything in for two months. What are you talking about?" That was, you remember, March through May 2025. So what are you talking about? You know, you reach a point of just, this is ridiculous what you're saying. You're not letting in any food. You're not letting in any water. So what do you think is going to happen? You've got a book I call "Garza's Grave Dig" is an inquire into corruption in high places. It basically tells how international institutions, credit after World War II, fail the Palestinians and how international bodies and human rights organizations have minimized or white-washed Israel's actions in Gaza. As you said, this may well be changing in real time. You know, one of the criticisms that people have about a lot of people on the pro-Israeli side is they tend to categorize all Palestinians the same. They kind of say they're all either Hamas or Hamas sympathizers. And there's rightful blowback against that. There is an argument, Norman, that some of the things you say suggest you feel that way in a collective way about Israel. I want to play a clip from an interview you did with Taco Carlson last week about this. The Israeli Army is representative of the Israeli-Jewish population with one tiny exception, representative of the Israeli-Jewish population. And so they are a nation of child killers. I mean, that's a brutal thing to say about an entire population of millions of people. You know, it would be like when Britain, illegally in my view, evaded Iraq in 2003, I was extremely critical of Tony Blair and the government at the time, but the idea that made all Britons somehow collectively a nation of child killers because so many children were being killed in Iraq. I would have found that a very offensive thing to say and inaccurate. And you repeated this quite a few times. Why do you feel this? Well, I feel it for the following reasons. Number one is I already told you earlier, as I already said earlier, all the polls showed that the Israelis overwhelmingly support what was going on in Gaza. Israel is the highest per capita user of the web in the world. Is it plausible? Is it tenable? Is it believable? If the people don't know what's going on in Gaza, they never saw a TikTok. They never passed their screen. What was going on in Gaza? Number two, Israel has a citizen army. In general, that's a good principle. It means every citizen has to be willing to sacrifice his or her life in order to preserve your country's freedom. That's a correct principle. On the other hand, if your army is carrying out the genocide, that casts a very dark light on your country, because that army is representative of your country's population. Number three, if you look at, for example, the most recent UN report, you know what its title is? Israel's deliberate targeting of children in Gaza. That's not a aberration. The report, there's 120 pages, single spaced. Just repeat. You would also know that Netanyahu and his government have repeatedly said, we don't deliberately, no, putting aside the argument about whether they do or not, I suspect history will judge this and we'll find out. But they've repeatedly said, we don't deliberately target children. Hamas live amongst, you know, the general population deliberately. We target Hamas and in the process of attacking terrorists, innocent people including children have been killed. That is their argument. If you're in average Israeli, and you're told that by your government all the time, you may well believe that that is the strategy, right? I don't think that makes you a part of a nation of child killers. Okay. Number one, everybody who serves in Gaza, you think they don't go back and tell their families what's going on there? Yeah, but we don't know how they explain what they're doing. They may well say exactly the same thing. We are taking out the terrorists, and in the process, a lot of other people are getting killed. Right. That's not what the documentation shows. No, but it may be what they're conveying back to the people. And my argument is purely, what's the population of Israel? Six, seven million? Right. The idea there are a whole nation of child killers. If I'm an Israeli hearing you say that, I'm like, well, what's the difference between you saying that about us, and then you getting indignant about people saying all Palestinians are Hamas. Okay. You remember when Israel was described as using starvation as a method of war? Remember that here? Right. Yeah. And that was not disputed by any international agency, any humanitarian agency, any UN body. That was a commonplace. Even the foreign policy chief of the EU, Borel. He said, yes, he was using starvation as a method of war. How do you think that's carried out? It means you have to block all the food from getting into Gaza. It means you have to bomb the agricultural fields. Everybody in Gaza was a participant in that starvation who was affected by the starvation. Forty eight percent of the people in Gaza are children. If you impose starvation, if you use starvation as a weapon of war, aren't you culpable for it? But again, that's the government decision. And yes, you could argue, right? The IDF are doing what their government tells them to do. The British Army would do what their government would do. I mean, I had a brother who fought in the Iraq War. He did that because he was told to you by his government. But Pierce, you must recognize. I just think demonizing a whole population, Norman, if I'm honest, he just, I don't like it when people do that with all garrisons and say, you're all Hamas. And I don't like it when people do it with all Israelis because I don't think they, I've met a number of Israelis in the last few years who vehemently disagree with what their government is doing in their name. So the idea of their old child killers is an unfair characterization, isn't it? Not really. Of course, even the ones who vehemently disagree with the government. But Pierce, Israel is among the most pulled places in the world. We know public opinion on that. As I already said to you, throughout the two and a half years, no more than 5 percent of Israelis thought that Israel was using too much force in Gaza. Now, you might say they didn't know what the results of the force was, but they did know Pierce. It was all over the place. You would have to be blind as a bat, not to see it. During the Vietnam War, and I'm old enough to remember it quite vividly, there were some people who said there were no atrocities occurring in Vietnam. And my late mother once said, if I can quote her, she said, those who want to know, no, and those who want to, don't want to know, will never know. That's just the nature of the game. But the fact that certain people don't want to know does not mean they're morally exonerated from what's happening. I just see that. And I would like to just say one last thing, one last thing at this point, speaking personally for myself. Now, Ed Miliband was very careful in his speech to say, we have no quarrel with the Israeli people. We only have a quarrel with the Israeli government. And he kept repeating that. It's a quarrel with the government. It's not just the quarrel with the government. It was a national project. It wasn't a state project. Take the case of my own family. As I'm sure you probably know, but you're so much younger that you forget these, I forget the district. No, it's significant. So after World War II, my parents loathe the Germans. You couldn't say a nice word about the Germans in my home. You would probably be throttled if you did, actually. And every Jew in that period, I'm talking about the 50s, the 60s, they all boycotted Volkswagen. No Jew would buy a Volkswagen. As Mr. Miliband now wants it to be said about Israel, we held all the Germans accountable for what happened. And I don't see why now we have to adopt a double standard and say, it's only Netanyahu. And the Israeli people bear no responsibility, no culpability. No, I'm sorry. You do bear culpability. It wasn't broad daylight. It was on the web. It wasn't real life. It wasn't real time. You bear a lot of culpability about what happened. And I don't agree. They feel the same about every Palestinian in Gaza after October the 7th. Bearing culpability. Are they all responsible for what happened? I talked to many garrisons about that. Actually, I told my first question. Did you blame them all collectively for not doing more to stop it or to condemn it afterwards? I would say in the case of the people of Gaza, I adopt the position basically that people I talked to said, they said, when you put people in a situation like we were in from the day we were born till October 7th, they said what happened was inevitable. Did they are a nation of, well, not a nation? But are they, is Gaza a place of child killers? No, I wouldn't say that. I mean, they're going to be, I'm going to, I'm going to have to bring in the other panelists. But there will be, I'm sure, people coming in, we're going to have a, a view about your distinction between the general categorization of both, but we'll, we'll see. Imagine setting your makeup, then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all day comfy grip. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue. Just plum, dewy, hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York. Maybe it's Mavilyne, but they say, um, turning down to Ed Sheeran, it was apologized to fans after, uh, McLemore was dropped from his tour for supporting Palestine. As a reminder, here is what McLemore said. The reasons why I wanted to come on this tour was because I wanted to stand up here on stages and stadiums across America and say two words that are very near and dear to my heart. Free Palestine. I said free Palestine. After McLemore's removal or all other support acts quit the tour and his first concert since the controversy exploded. Here's what Ed Sheeran told his fans. This week, the criticism was about something much more important and I've had to take, uh, make difficult decisions and I am making mistakes and I'm so, so sorry. I don't want to disappoint fans and I've never wanted to be an activist musician, but this has put me in the middle of an important and passionate argument about freedom of speech and the most complex political issue on the planet. I am deeply worried about the idea that venues should pre-approved content of performers. This happens in so many places that I perform around the world, but it should never happen in the free world. I have tried in my career not to be a political commentator of any kind because I want my music and shows to be about unity, not division, about humanity, not politics. But this is a humanitarian issue and I cannot hide how I feel about it anymore. What happened in Israel and I don't know if music festival on October 7th was horrific and compounded centuries of Jewish pain. What is happening in Gaza is a catastrophic and unjustifiable and disproportionate. My heart has been broken by the scale of devastation and loss of civilians' lives, of children's lives. And the systemic injustice we're seeing unfold in the West Bank cannot be overlooked. Well, Jordan Norman is going to say with us in the studios is ready to commentate a hen magic and alongside Winston Marshall who has cancelled himself from Mumford and sons and now host the Winston Marshall show. Well, we also have Glenn Greenwald host of System Update joining us from the States. Welcome to all of you. Winston, you are the cancelled musician of the panel today, albeit you were uncancelable. It transpired. It seems to me, I don't know if you're in that well, I've interviewed him once and I, from what I gather from people who know him well, is a really nice guy. Possibly badly advised here. Maybe doesn't have that many good advisors around him, actually apparently makes a lot of these calls himself. Always wanted to be non-political, non-partisan and now finds himself right in the middle of the most toxic partisan debate imaginable and seems to me to have made a series of bad decisions. I'm putting Macklemore on the bill to start with knowing what he's like, knowing his history of dressing up like Shylock on stage and so on. I think it's a clear pattern of anti-Semitic antics by Macklemore that ought to have given Ed perhaps pause for thought on an American tool right now. But then secondly, Ed Sheeran bowing to the whim of a billionaire stadium owner, Robert Kraft, who he just decided, you know, decided he didn't want to have someone saying this in his stadium, perfectly entitled to do that. But actually, it might have been better looking back and it've read Sheeran to go, well, if my support acts aren't allowed, I'm not going to play either. And called his bluff, I suspect that might have resolved things. And then now all his support groups have all gone and disowned him. He does a kind of tearful, slight me a caliber on stage and then plays both sides and so on. It's sort of like even disagree with what he said. I kind of broadly do agree with what the way he outlined his views about it, but he's now the com political having said he never would. And it just seems to me every step of this, he's made a mess of it, but I don't view him as a villain. What's your view? Every Palestine is the new Black Lives Matters, the new silences violence, it's this new sort of rhetorical trick used to sort of morally bully people into taking a side. And unfortunately for Ed Sheeran, he's ended up in the middle of that sort of, in the middle of the picket line and been forced to choose which way to go. I think there's a few things that could be true at the same time, which I think you've pointed out. Firstly, it was absolutely wrong for Robert Kraft, the owner of the New England Patriots and the stadium that they were playing to cancel him, Macklemore. They should not have done that. It's not against the First Amendment, but it's against the spirit of the First Amendment. Of course they have a right to decide who isn't in their venues, but they shouldn't have done that. It is also true that as far as what I've seen with Macklemore, he said some things that are pretty nasty. I mean, on this very tour, he was calling out to Jews in the audience, "Hey, if I call out a genocide, I'm not attacking you, I'm sorry, if I was going to a gig," and someone said, "Hey, do all the white people here just so you know then sort of reference something that's going on in Australia." I'd be like, "This is completely, why are you bringing up me being Jewish? I don't come here for that. It's a family night out." But this was known about Macklemore before the tour started. He don't book rage against the machine, and then halfway through the tour say, "Sorry, Lads, just play the songs, but no communist stuff, right, this is, you know, you know this in advance." So that was a big mistake. As for Ed Sheeran, "Look, I don't personally, I know you said you agreed, here's with what he said. I don't personally agree with where he landed in describing the war in Gaza, nevertheless, the pressure he has been under." I know. But for me, it was Black Lives Matter at the time, and Antifa, I'd call those out. You remember $2 billion worth of damage done across America, 25 people killed between George Floyd and the end of October. A lot of that damage, by the way, was to black businesses. It went black against Black Lives. So I called that out, and I went against the Velwoke mob, as we call it, and they came after me. So as far as I concerned, it's a horrible place to be in. It might be that Ed, who by the way, has a great reputation. This guy lifts everyone up. He collaborates with everyone, and if you, actually, this is really interesting to me, Piz. He said, "Friends and family." I saw that, yeah. Well, we've seen his cousin coming out, Trashy, I mean, Glenn Greenwald, you know, there's a lot of complexity to this. But ultimately, if I'd been Ed Sheeran, I think, having made the decision to have Macklemore on my bill, and he worked with him for many years, and if I'd had a stadium owner trying to ban my support act, I think I would have instinctively felt that the smart play, never mind anything else, would be to support my support act, and to not let this happen and to say, if they can't play, I don't play. What do you think? Yeah. I mean, I think that sometimes it's understandable when people capitulate to immoral or unreasonable demands because they're dependent on the financial support they get from their employer or whatever, and they need it to sustain their family. The idea of being so obscenely rich, talking about hundreds of millions of dollars of net worth like Ed Sheeran has, and then being so needy to perform in Robert Kraft Stadium, and it remember, Robert Kraft didn't just ban Macklemore himself. He got other Zionist billionaires who were also owners of the stadiums where Ed Sheeran was planning to go to do the same thing. So it was like a consortium, and to not be willing to stand up to that, like, we just heard, you know, oh, I was canceled during Black Eyes matter. Sorry, like, if you are a public figure and you take a position that's controversial, it's totally reasonable to expect that people will criticize you. And it's a little bit difficult to endure Ed Sheeran self-victimizing in this way, crying on stage when you have In Gaza, the highest number of child amputees ever, tens of thousands of children dead, those are the real victims. The second thing is, it's not really true that Ed Sheeran has always wanted to be apolitical. He took, for example, a very clear and definitive stance when it came to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. He even did shows to raise money for them. And yes, I realized that was easy to do in the West, but that's a very polarizing position around the world. And yet he did it there because it was easy for him. And I do think that people in the public platform have a moral obligation, not in every case, but when there's a genocide happening, would we accept, for example, during World War II, a public figure said, oh, I don't really have an opinion on the Holocaust. I'm not really political. I don't really want to speak out. I don't think we would accept that at all. And then, yeah, finally, I do think that music artists have a responsibility, especially ones extremely wealthy with the gigantic global platform, to stand up to the kind of censorship that he just confronted. And yet he completely felt to do that, gave a both sides version of this conflict that somehow began on October 7th, even though the Israelis were murdering Palestinian children long before that, including throughout 2023 before October 7th. It was just a whole failure on every level. And I think it comes from this weird need, not to ever offend anybody to the point that you're willing to have no principles or values, even though financially yours riches you can be for life. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'll bring it back in, Winston. I'm going to welcome back to Uncensored. And just before we get your response to, to the share in, uh, Furory, you know, you're in Israeli sitting on this panel, you've just had normal finkelstein say, Israel is a nation of child killers and explaining why he believes that. What's your response to that? Uh, I'm just asking Norman, am I a child killer? That's what you just said. Am I a child killer? I would say the probability is the higher probability is yes, sorry, the child killer. That's correct. You understand how unhinge you sound. You had such a great career. Professor, it's such a shame that you're throwing it all away with this unhinge, capitalizing to the freaking mob. What? For what, Norman? For what? It's, you're such an embarrassment to your family, to your people. Honestly, like you calling me a child murder without even knowing me and then you're saying that I am. I worked to save Palestinian civilians in West Bank, where you're propaganda, the Israeli army. When you're propaganda during the genocide, that doesn't make you much different than Gerboules. Do you want me to answer you or you're just, uh, or you're just going to call me a Nazi? I think you're the one that is dominating it. Are you calling me a Nazi and you're calling me a child murder? You are a rape denier. You spent years writing a book that, saying that Amit Susnah, a victim that said, I was raped by Hamas. You're saying that she, well, maybe you shouldn't call it rape. Like, look at you. You haven't had some distancing, man. Come on. And then you're, you're asking you have to learn for years. The beginning is learning to read. Yeah. I read very well. I'm not sure. If you go through the book, I just wrote a bit, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Allow me just finish. Yeah. He made an accusation. Oh, you made an accusation. You think you're a Nazi and you're going to be a child killing. And now he said, I am a dishonest scumber. Yeah, you, that's not me. It's your colleagues. So long. So long. So long. It's not me to finish. If you look at a Nazi's honest testimony by the Civil Commission, by the Civil Commission, she never said she was raped. That's the problem. Why did you say no, man? Why did you say that? I suffered extreme sexual assault. She said that the king of Hamas there was held a gun to her head and forced her to conduct sexual assault. That's what she said. That's the quote. That's what I can do later. I invite everyone to Google it into my question. No. Allow me to finish. No, no, no. I want to keep it on. I want to keep out. No, no. I'm at you. But here's the point. If I had a Palestinian commentator sitting in an amazing seat right now, right? Would you say about whoever that was? You are a child killer because of what Hamas did on October the 7th. Would you use the same broad brust road to condemn every single gazon in the way you have now condemned every Israeli, including him, Mazik sitting there, who, to my knowledge, has never killed a child or anyone, right? So I just think when you do this, but you don't want to do the same with garrisons, people will look at it and say, there's a double standard because it's not the same thing. If I were to say bodies of children that were killed in captivity like Hamas did. Right. Another fantasy. - There's footage of Ariel and Kfir Bibbas. Come on, I have this man, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm trying to hold it together, but Ariel and Kfir Bibbas were killed by Hamaz and we all have seen how Hamaz has tried for the bodies of them. - Did you say right? There is not one. - You can't hear well. - There's not one. - Hearing it, okay. - There's not one single frame. One single photograph, one single digital segment. Not one, there were 10,000, I hope your audience is listening. There were 10,000 photographs and digital segments of October 7th, 1800 hours. That would take Pierce Morgan. If you were running through it, it would take him eight hours a day, seven days a week for seven months to go through that digital evidence. Of that evidence, there is not one photograph. - There are victims of the same thing were raped. - I know you're saying they were raped. - They were raped. - Well I've seen, I've seen, I've seen, I've seen reporting by Christina Lam, who I think is one of the best. - I know you think she's one. - I think she's one of the best correspondents in Fleet Street history. - I look at the evidence. - And she, yeah, but I'll read the evidence. - I'll be not spitting horrific hairs here. - I mean, you're talking about three. - He raised the environment. - I'm making a point. - He raised the issue. - I'm making the point. 3,000 Hamas terrorists poured over the border and committed 1,200 murders. - Totally agree. - Including setting fire to families homes, kidnapping a baby, holocaust survivors, dragging women, shooting them in the head from a music festival, dragging them back to Gaza to treat them horrifically back in Gaza. The idea that somehow, because there's no photographic evidence of a rape that day, somehow that, you know, we're exaggerating the horrors of what Hamas perpetrated. And the reason I think it's important is again, I can just come back to you, just calmly turning to the guy sitting next to you on the panel and saying you are a child killer. And yet if he was a Palestinian from Gaza, I do not believe you would say you are a child killer or you are a holocaust survivor kidnapper or you are a baby kidnapper. In other words, you wouldn't generalize with a Palestinian the way that you are within Israeli. - Because the Palestinians were not members of an army representative of the Israeli population that went into Gaza in which there are prolific, pro-occupious examples of targeting children, targeting children. The latest UN report states, the deliberate Israel's deliberate targeting of Palestinian children. - But Hamas, he didn't target those children. - No, no one said he did. - But if you participate, which you agree with, if you participate in the mass starvation of Gaza, if you use starvation, - I didn't even, I mean, you said I am, and you call me gables. And you said it on a propaganda. You don't even know why I am. And just because I'm Israeli, do you understand? - I don't understand how angry him today is. - Were you a propagandist? - What does that mean, Gaza? - What is a propagandist? - I was not a spokesperson, exactly. But that's your problem. You don't know a propagandist for the externalist. - Well, as I was saying at a moment, all due respect, someone say, you're being a bit of a propagandist for Hamas. - As far as I'm saying, they didn't abuse any women that day. Well, they blew their heads off. They murdered them in cold blood. They kidnapped them. They tortured them. I mean, you know, someone say, you're attempt to try and downplay. - I never tried to downplay. - Said it does sound like it. - Okay, one second, here's, I'm your guest. So I want to treat you with respect. I'm at your dinner table, not at my own. - Sure. - Who brought up the question of rape? Did I bring it up? - No, that was the question of rape. - Who brought up the accusations of rape? - And you spent two years. - No, I have not. - You spent two years writing book, the Bun King, rape victims, and telling them that they were liars. That's who you are. And then you call me a child killer. - No. - And then you said I'm like, "Govras, of course I would react to you." - And you have no discency when it comes to Israeli Jews. That's your problem. - Here's, when I was on your program several times, did I say I don't quarrel with facts? Did I acknowledge your trust? These occurred on October 7th. Did I say they were of a significant magnitude? - I just want to be the one trying to say, "Well, they didn't do this, but they didn't do what." - Here's, I still care about facts that didn't happen. There's no evidence that it happened. - But there's plenty of reporting to say that it did happen. - Excuse me? - There's plenty of reporting, but people like Christine and Lamb and others. - I went through, I'm not trying to promote a book that's not my style. I go through all the evidence in the book. I go through the most recent report that was put out by something called the Civil Commission. There is no material evidence of rape. In fact, even survivor testimony, there's one fellow who claimed he was raped on October 7th. - First of all, why is this the hill you want to die on? - I don't want to die on it. - There was kidnapping, there was murder, there was arson, there was stealing bays, stealing holocaust of a, who cares? - He was the one who said that they raped. - He poured up that issue. - So I should ignore it? - I don't think he says, "I am the remedy that I hear." - You're using that. You've sat next to a guy, I don't think you know it, you sat next to him, you immediately called him a child killer, then you called him a knife. - I'm serious, it's probable. - Then he was gobbled, then you called him a propaganda, so I'm merely making the point. If it was a Palestinian, I don't think you'd apply the same tactics against a Palestinian based on the fact that it happened to live in the same places as Hamas. You know, I want to ask you about the Ed Sheeran debate, because it seems to me he is in a loose, loose, really. From the moment Mack Lamour is banned by craft and Ed Sheeran allows that to happen. He's kind of hoisted by his own retard. Many people thought it was cowardly of him. I think it was just naive on his part to think that he could let that happen. And he says he couldn't think about it. Well, he could. He could have said, "Then I'm not performing," right? Which would have been probably the morally courageous thing to do, particularly as it turns out. It sounds like he agrees with most of what Mack Lamour was saying, right? But I'd feel very uncomfortable about all of this story, really. You know, I just think we've got to a stage where people are getting bullied into making public statements when they'd rather not about these things, purely to tick somebody's box about their virtue. And I feel uncomfortable with that. Yeah, and that's why Norman and others are making the case that Israelis are Nazis or that we are child killers, all of us. The goal is the humanisation campaign is meant to make every celebrity and every artist think twice before. They're not only that they're not defending Israel, but even if they don't say free Palestine. And then we hear arguments that, "Oh, well, you know, we need them to. " It's about censorship. We don't want them to be censored. But then if someone stood on stage and said free Israel, those guests would be out here saying, "Absolutely, cancel all of them. They can't speak." So it's not about free speech. I don't believe it's about free speech. Well, if Mack Lamour had been saying pro-Israeli stuff, there's no way Robert Kraft pans in from that stadium. So there's the hypocrisy there, right? Absolutely. I mean, there's a wider point, Winston. You've been a top music star. You are. You're still a great musician. But, you know, the truth is, if you've been saying supportive things about Black Lives Matter, you have never been cancelled, right? And I also am curious, I mean. And if you say supportive things about Israel, by the way, you're cancelled. Look what happened to Boyd George last month. Well, that's true, so it works, but it doesn't work, though. It works, but it works. Look what happened to Radiohead's guitar player. I don't agree with it. Should they support acts? If you're doing this at all. If you're supporting a headline act, like Ed Sheeran, on a massive stadium tour of the United States, should any support act be using it as an opportunity to score political points that they care about when they're not the headline act? Because if Malamor doesn't do what he did, none of the rest happens. It does seem like, from my perspective, it looks like Malamor has torn down the whole tour as much as he can. And so I'm just sharing under a bus, really. But we don't know exactly what's going on behind the scenes. If I may address Glenn from earlier, Glenn, you said, if you get cancelled, boo-hoo. Do you think Malamor got cancelled, boo-hoo from the stadium? Does it sort of boo-hoo, you know, tough like, mate? You said what you said, and there are consequences. Is that your position on that? Malamor actually got cancelled, which is why it's so bizarre that Ed Sheeran is now somehow the victim of cancel culture. But do you put huge difference in trying to be criticised? But Glenn actually being cancelled by a couple of Zionists believe it. >> Glenn, you just said boo-hoo to me. >> But even Malamor has said, don't feel sorry for me. I'm not a victim. I'm extremely wealthy. I'm safe in my life. The real victims are people in Gaza, which is the kind of perspective that a rational person should have. Not, oh, I'm a public figure. I've been expressing polarizing views. And now I'm being criticised. Everyone feels sorry for me. This is the pathetic grievance that people have been invoking because they're being criticised. >> Nobody, by the way, was the man in a chair and taken a position. No, but Ed Sheeran hadn't taken a position on Israel and Gaza for three years. Nobody was angry about that. Nobody was harassing you. >> I mean, somebody made a point. >> So you look, on that, somebody made a very valid point. There's no record of Ed Sheeran publicly saying anything on his stage. After October the 7th, for example, right? So, you know, for all the attempt to portray myself as non-political, he has Maclamore as his supporter, knowing what he feels. Let's make. more say what he say without any condemnation from Ed Sheeran. Is it only when the backlash comes that Ed Sheeran feels compelled to say what he says? I think he shouldn't have said anything, and I certainly think crying on stage when this debate really comes down to Maclamore saying it was a genocide in Gaza and too many children are being slaughtered. It seems a little bit me, me, me, and self-pity. So I don't think that Ed's played this at all. I think he's been very naive. Let me ask you, though, Glenn, before we wrap up here, you know, I think it's been a fiery exchange here between Norman and Hen, and I understand why. When Norman turned to Hen Masek and says, you are a child killer. I said probably. Okay, but how do you feel about that, Glenn, when you hear that? I mean, I do think there's a difference between a democratic society that constantly ratifies certain policies overwhelmingly. I mean, they elected Netanyahu, they probably are about to attack again, even if they don't. It won't be, the alternative won't be somebody who thinks there was too much force use in Gaza, if anything, they may think that there wasn't enough. But, and I also think here's very quickly that as a journalist, I don't think you should be so dismissive of lies that are told kind of like, oh, Hamas is bad. So just say whatever you want about them. There were so many lies spread in that first week that they beheaded babies. They cut wounds out of women's wounds that they baked babies in ovens. It's like saying, oh, who cared about that? Yeah, I would say they were quickly debunked. I remember those stories. It was 40 ahead of your babies. None of that was true. A baby was. Like, Huckabee just said it again. And to be clear, it's not true. And I think we had it in the first week we were on air after until the seventh. I think it was repeated here. And we then made it clear, there's no actual evidence for that. The difference between that and the rape allegations, sexual assault allegations against Hamas is that Norman says he's seen no photographic evidence. No, I'm just here really. But I have seen a lot of evidence reported by the likes of Christian alarm. He's a fantastic award-winning foreign correspondent from her interviews with people who say that they were sexually abused, right? They may not be. They may not be. They're definitely. They may not be fully told it. They just mean to say again. I'm just dying to ask. I'm just dying to ask hand one question because Norman said the reason I say this is because you see my paper propaganda is for the idea of it's question of starvation and the Israelis using starvation is a weapon. And what was your position on that? Did you deny it? Did you justify it or did you deny it? I need them. I have a bank here during the war. It's such a nice gotcha. If you look at my ex-account, you would see that I condemned it and actually supported the people that were protesting. The Israelis that were at the Gaza border calling to allow humanitarian aid. And for five years in my military service, I worked to provide humanitarian aid. And I was liaising with UNRAT the Red Cross and international organizations in the West Bank in Gaza and in Chevron. So, I mean, you all immediately decided that because I'm Israeli, I am a Nazi. And that's the problem. You guys are not able to see the other two are. I want to think about anything. I want to look at your audience. I'm just going to plan in the plan in the context of his response, which is pretty robust to put him ugly. What would you say? It's not. It's not. He mentioned Ben Gavir. There's said nothing to do with Ben Gavir. It was you'll go on to the defense minister who in the very first week said we are not allowing anything into Gaza. No food, no water, no medicine, no fuel, nothing. These people are animals. And then for the next two years, multiple times the Israeli government blocked all food from entering Gaza to the point where the population is normally set half of whom our children were starving, starving to the point of famine as every organization set around the world up on us. I also, what was your position on that? I said they deserve to have humanitarian aid. I said that continuously. All I said right now is that I could then what Ben Gavir said. And yes, and I think what you have, Galen said, he said later that he meant Hamas. He wasn't clear that he was speaking about Hamas. And the action was problematic and I was calling it out. I still call it out. What's your point? What are you trying to prove here? Are you trying to put something about the things possible? The Israelis did one of the worst things possible, which is use starvation as a weapon for collective punishment against the population half of whom our children every potential candidate that might become the next prime minister of Netanyahu doesn't agrees with that policy. Never has the announcement. Yeah, but now it is going into Gaza. There is been a rally coming into Gaza. You've been out there. The population declined. What you're saying, that there's one thing reaching the one thing. We talked about freedom of speech, freedom of press in this debate. I do think I can wrap things up by saying the one thing I'm sure we can all agree on is that the ongoing ban by the Netanyahu government not allowing international media to operate freely in Gaza, despite there being a supposed ceasefire, isn't ongoing disgrace. Yes. And a terrible suppression of freedom of speech of a free press. And actually a lot of the answers to the questions could be answered if journalists were allowed to do their job. Which is why they won't be. Which is why they're allowed. I don't disagree. I'm sure we would all agree that that ban is completely wrong. Is there anyone who doesn't agree with that? I'm more interested in talking about what's going on in the West here. This is why I was invited onto the show. We have got the silencing of people with people disagreeing with them either using different methods. There's a culture of silencing. And there's a lot of lies. One of the lies that's been very simple lie here is that of genocide. If you want to look at a genocide, at the beginning of the Second World War, there were six million more Jews and they were at the end of the Second World War. If you look at what happened to the Tutsis in Rwanda, there were a million fewer Tutsis after. But that was never the case. Look at what I mean instead. This is why I wanted to get back to the Glendts Point. It's an important clarification because in the genocide debate, the reason I've not used the word is precisely actually for what you've just said. You cited Rwanda as being a genocide, but that has never been officially classified as a genocide. And so I think you have to be careful about words. I believe what we've been seeing is ethnic cleansing, which is horrific, but is not genocide. Now, it may be the history will determine there's been a genocide. Although that may be down to whether journalists can get in and do their job properly, work out what's really happened here. But you cite Rwanda as being a genocide. And yet that was never formally declared a genocide, which is one of the million fewer. I understand. I think it was a genocide. I think it was the point. It was a genocide, but my point being, it was never officially determined that it was a genocide. And for that reason, a lot of people who look at this are reluctant to say it's been a genocide in Gaza. People when officially say it is a genocide. Because so many fewer people have died in Gaza than died in Rwanda. Well, that was a classification of Gaza was increasing before the war. During the war, we know that 100,000 left via Egypt. We know that 70,000 or so were killed in the war, started by Hamas that could have been stopped by Hamas. If they return their hostages, it was a just war. Horrific things happen in war war. It's horrific. No one likes it. But those things, that is the light at the beginning, at the bottom of this, that there's a genocide. And there are many scholars who believe, well, we run out of time one, but there are many scholars who believe that it is a genocide. There are others who do not. Including Israeli and there are What are the others who do not? I'm not even the liars. One of the psychopaths on this Israeli government, and I've used that phrase repeatedly and quite deliberately, 'cause I think they're doing enormous damage to Israel's reputation. He posted a video of himself taunting your father in his jail cell, telling him in the video, you will not win. He who messes with the people of Israel. He who will murder our children. He who will murder our women. We will wipe him out. As your father tried to interject, he added, you need to know this throughout history. It was the first time the father had been seen publicly in many years, many commented on how he looked, that he looked well older, gaunt, not very healthy. When you saw that video, what did you feel about it? - I mean, I felt appalled. I felt really angry because here is a man who has advocated for the peace process, who has supported the peace process, who has supported international law, who's getting threatened by a bully, by a terrorist in Bang Vier. And unfortunately, Bang Vier is still operating. He's still doing whatever he wants with the Palestinian people, with the Palestinian prisoners. And I think as a son, it was a shock to me to see my father in this condition. This is important to highlight that my father has been put in solitary confinement right after October 7th, even though obviously has nothing to do with it. He has been tortured, assaulted multiple times. - You haven't yet to see him or speak to him? - I haven't been able to see him in four years. I haven't been able to speak to him in four years. I haven't been able to hug or even touch my father in 25 years. And this is an experience that thousands of Palestinians go through, I wish I was alone in this experience. - The opinion polls consistently say that your father's the most popular Palestinian leader, the last month's poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and survey research found that he would receive 54% of the vote if he was to be the next president of the Palestinian Authority, puts him well ahead of the current mass leader and much further ahead of President Mahmoud Abbas. Do those polls tally with your sense of how popular he is? - They do. I mean, he's been consistently the most popular Palestinian leader for more than 20 years. And I think it's very important to understand why. The first thing is my father is someone who's willing to sacrifice for the Palestinian courts. He is very brave in the peace process and very brave in the struggle against the Israeli oppression. The second thing is that he gets his credibility from the street and this is very important in Palestinian minds. And also he's a unifying figure. My father, he brought all Palestinian factions in 2006 to the President's document, which he initiated. And it drew a clear political vision for Palestine based on the two-state solution and it got signed by all political factions, including Hamas, Islamic jihad and all of them. And this is very important because we are taking initiatives as Palestinians towards the international law and the application of international law. The problem is that we don't have a partner of peace in the Israeli side and that's the biggest problem that we're facing. And we're still facing that and we're paying the steepest price for that problem. - He was convicted by an Israeli court in 2004 for his role in directing deadly attacks on Israeli civilians during the second interferter. It was said he led the Tanzim, an armed wing of the fat political faction. He was found guilty to the murder of four Israelis and a Greek monk attempted murder and belonging to a terrorist organization. And as we said, he's currently serving five consecutive life sentences plus 40 years. I mean, when it comes to those charges against him for which he was convicted, what is your view about what he did or didn't do? - I mean, virtually Israeli courts see every Palestinian as guilty. If you look at the Palestinian history more than a million people have been imprisoned and that includes the worst of type of arbitrarily arrest the administrative detention. They justified oppression, apartheid, all of that. So I don't think it's a crazy idea that they would label a Palestinian leader as a terrorist quote unquote. And of course, no Israeli is guilty under Israeli courts. It's a tool of the occupation. It's very important to understand that the Israeli judicial system is a tool of the occupation. - Do you believe that people were killed on your father's orders? - Of course not. My father has been arrested. - My father was a violent uprising. Many people were killed. Your father was one of the people helping to direct this. Is it not logical? - My father. - But he would have been responsible for deaths even if people want to justify them historically. - No, I don't think so. He was a parliament member. He was the head of Fatah and West Bank, which is the party of the PA that signed those law courts. And I think what happened, we need to go to the reason why my father was laid as a terrorist by the Israeli government. It's because he's a true partner for peace. It's because he is a strong, credible leader and someone who would never give up on Palestinians' rights. And willing to sacrifice himself. - Have you ever asked him directly if he killed someone? - Yeah. He would know, even the Israeli courts let me be very clear. Even the Israeli courts said that he's never killed anyone. - No, but ordered the deaths for some reason. - Yes, my father has been always on and off the record. Very clear of his refusal of targeting civilians. Israeli civilians or Palestinians' civilians and to abide by international law. He takes-- - And he said that to you? - Yes, of course. And he said it also on the record to Lindsey Hilton, which is the one who did the last interview that he did 20 years ago. He said on the record that I would never condone the targeting of civilians. They should be outside of the game. And this is a clear position that he's taken always. And he takes pride in the fact that his work is always based on international law. - What is your view of what happened on October 7th? I've had a lot of guests on in the years since then. I've always asked everybody on the pro-Palestinian side, do you condemn what Hamas did that day unreservedly? So I'll ask you that question. - My position is very clear, which is my father's position. I would never condone the targeting of civilians. Regardless where they are, who they are, what they represent. They shouldn't be targeted. And I think we should be very clear. Any Palestinian who would support the targeting of civilians would be a hypocrite, because we're suffering from that. For three years, we've been through a genocide, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who have been killed or wounded. Our children are not living an ordinary life, so I would never condone the targeting of civilians. - What do you think is going to happen here? Obviously, everything was thrown up in the air about October 7th, a horrendous day. My view is that the Israeli response has become increasingly disproportionate and unjustifiable. I don't think there's any intent by Netanyahu to have a two-state solution. There are elections coming in Israel, which may determine that. The big theory, as you know, is that Netanyahu wanted to funnel billions of dollars to Hamas, believing it would create a divide and rule between Hamas and the Palestinian authority. Do you think that theory has validity? - I think that we need to be very clear as Palestinians, my father always says, we need to worry about what we can control. And what we can control at the moment is to have a political renewal, a democratic renewal within Palestine, to have a new representative leadership that is ready for a political settlement in the future. We need to remember that as Palestinians, where the biggest beneficiaries of peace, were the ones who are paying the steepest price for violence. And I think the last three years have told the whole world that there is nothing called peace in the Middle East or stability in the Middle East without answering the Palestinian question. A perpetual apartheid for Palestinians is not a peace. That's what Israel's selling at the moment, which is to keep Palestinians under apartheid as second-class citizens in our own land. And I don't think that's going to work. What we can do is that we can have that representative leadership. We can start building relationships and bridges with the international community, encourage the sanctions that have been put by the British government alongside 11 other countries. And I really welcome that position because one year ago, the recognition of the state of Palestine was a great move in the right direction. But it's not enough. I think that taking steps on the ground will be what will make a difference for peace. And I think the biggest step at the moment is to support Palestinian political renewal and to ask call for the freedom of my father as someone who can unify the Palestinian people and can be a credible partner for a future peace. You've been a brilliant campaign, if your father, regardless of what people may think of him, that's undoubted. You're a very eloquent talker. If he never comes out, have you considered the possibility of taking the torch, the barguity torch, and actually doing this yourself? I want people to understand what my father represents for the Palestinian people. And I'm not trying to shy away from your question. I think if you look at, you mentioned Nelson Mandela at the beginning of this interview. And I want to ask you as someone, if you go back to the early '90s and ask the Irish people, the British people, do you envision peace between the-- Yeah, I think I raised this parallel a lot, actually. And no one would say yes. And it took, actually, fresh eyes and leadership from John Major and then Tony Blair and Bill Clinton and Senator Mitchell and others to come at this and just be determined to try and win. force through peace and at the moment there's nobody it seems to me that is doing that in the region but it in many people think your father is the person that can do that and you know talking about Mandela one of my favorite quotes is from Mandela which is it always seems impossible until it's done sometimes people thought it would be impossible to bring peace in Northern Ireland and here we are 26 27 years later and there's been a lasting peace not completely perfect but a lasting peace and an end to the troubles it can be done you just have to have a will to do it and my father has that will I think you know even though he's been attacked assaulted multiple times two months ago he got shot by a rubber bullet in his leg while he's in a cell and and yet he still is committed towards peace towards coexistence and all of that but also towards freedom my father believes that these can't be divided freedom and peace can't be divided well this will only it will only get resolved I believe by two state solution where Palestinians and Israelis all are afforded the exact same human rights yes until that moment is reached there's never going to be an end to this and it needs leaders who understand that clearly and work towards that happening Araboghuti a pleasure to meet you thank you very much peace Morgan on censor is proudly independent the only boss around here is me you enjoy our show and also only one simple thing it's subscribe on youtube and follow peace Morgan on censor on Spotify and apple podcast and in return we will continue our mission to inform irritate and entertain and we'll do it all for free independent uncensored media has never been more critical and we couldn't do it without you [BLANK_AUDIO]