You are Vocal on the Criticism But Silent on the Compliments

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. So whether you're a fan of the original pumpkin spice latte or ready to mix it up with an iced pumpkin cream chai, the new iced pumpkin cream matcha, or the new iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso, you can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. Your favorite fall flavors are back at Starbucks. The one and only pumpkin spice latte and the deliciously smooth iced pecan crunch latte have arrived and are ready to sip all season long. Or find a new favorite. Like the new iced banana bread latte that tastes just like fall in a cup. You can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. Or find a new favorite taste of fall in a cup. You can find your favorite taste of fall in a cup. is i have a feeling remarkably similar to her and my goal or our goal would be to give you the permission to finally be really different oh my god i would love that i 100 agree with what you said i really think i'm doing different thing with the same energy and i'm listening to the boldness with which i instantly within 10 minutes of the session addressed with her the certitude of her story but it is exactly because she was so convinced that she's doing differently that what was so obvious was how similar it actually was indeed mom was always gone and she would never go anywhere but the first time i saw her i was like oh my god i'm so excited to be with her i'm so happy to be with her and i'm listening to the boldness with which i instantly within 10 minutes of the session the fervor the conviction the non-negotiable stance that was invested in this was actually really one and the same and here's this crucial moment of the session she could have looked at me and said what are you talking about and i would have had to completely step back and first create an alliance with her but what happened is that it landed so strongly that the alliance was created through the intervention and from that moment i felt that she trusted me that i could say things and i hear how stuck she is in her story in this narrative i heard it also in the intake interview same word same story and so those are the moments when i go back to one of the first things i said when i started the podcast which was when a couple comes to see me they come in with a story and the goal of at least the first session is for them to leave with a different story and with her it just went very very very fast from that moment on the door had opened before we move forward do you want i just wanted to very quickly touch up on what i think is great about us because i feel like i didn't have a goal well first of all like our relationship is like such a note that it's like directly about our relationship but the fact that my mom absolutely loves his mom you know i mean i think that's very right and like in laws but with us so we when i met him like originally he's right here and i think i felt like i've never met anybody like him before you just talked in the second person okay like i saw his you know i always think like a hands are very special on people and like i saw his hands and i saw him working and i saw him like stop stop okay okay here's the thing yes it's much harder it's much harder so i should tell him as like i'm telling him right now that's correct yes i'd rather birth a third baby but let me just it's about to say nice things you know there's not much really to be worried about look what happens when we've gotten so into the criticism and the negative feedback all the time i know how suddenly it becomes the most vulnerable thing to say something nice but i love the fact that you said i do want to first say something that i also value because we had left it out and it was really the right step thank you thank you so i love our sex and you know that i don't know if he loves it as much as i do but um you know i love you so much and you know my favorite part is when we are home because i feel very special you make me feel really good at home when you're not influenced of anything outside like your family or other people or the social norms you see me for truly who i am and i think that's why we have such a good sex life and how do you see me the way i am at home versus the way i'm outside of the home well you know that drastically different that's why i'm asking and because that's something that's not a strong point now we're highlighting the good things this is bad stuff but you love me being at home so much because of the way you are and also because of the way i am at home yeah versus the way i am outside of the home yeah that also plays into it right yeah which it's worth chatting about as well at some point well yeah try something else shall we sure if somebody says your soup was delicious i love your soup what do you think is a better response thank you i enjoy hearing that or but you don't like my apple pie that's true that's a good point okay i know you are eager but nothing will change if you can't re-establish that more tender kind appreciative part of the relationship and not just about the unit and she was talking about you she actually was not talking about the family that's right but i don't even know if you could hear it so we'll do it again you want me to keep going saying good things whatever else you wanted to say and you can do it face to face or you can wait i mean the easiest for me it would be me telling you no why because what for what because it's the easiest i know it it's easy to say things to me but it doesn't really change the dynamic between the two of you just practice it okay you know i love how you are with the boys of course i think you're the best dad thank you in some ways when you as far as your interaction with them of course i think you could spend more time with them when you come back oh my god now we're doing the same thing um excellent i caught myself you see that yes that filter is essential perfect editing thank you she heard what i had said to him and she caught it when she did it herself basically it had come to a place where they couldn't say one positive statement that wasn't qualified and that didn't have a butt in there and when there is a butt we tend to hear the second part of the sentence more than the first so there was a reason that i started the session asking them tell me about what's good what's strong what's an asset partly is because i could sense they were just eager to plunge into the problems and we are better able to deal with the problems when they sit on top of a foundation of something that is good so that's why i had asked and it's such a powerful diagnostic question are people actually able to say this without qualification are they able to say to the person that they're saying it to or do they look at me because it's actually too vulnerable to look at the person and say you know you are a fantastic father you're my preferred lover i loved your hands from the first day i met him and she tells him a lot of very special things but she realizes that when you've developed a kind of a carapace and a defensive position in a relationship saying nice things to the other to their face has become quite vulnerable and um of course i also love how you are with my family i see why everybody loves you at your job but just because the way you treat people you know it's so rare and you know i kind of love how we did everything alone in a way and i love how we always toughen up like the hard times yeah because it's like we're always alone right because like we're so good together sometimes we're i feel like we're so perfect because we know each other so well and because we i think at the end of the day we still feel like we've never met anyone like each other you know yeah yeah i feel the same way the word alone is at the heart of her experience and in part she was alone when mom wasn't home and was always out but her experience now is that we are alone we are two breathing the strength into one and therefore i am not alone in the way i used to feel i'm alone and strong i'm not alone and scared because we are together but there is an aspiration toward merging that also is part of the way she describes the oneness. And then one of the things that's difficult for us is how different I grew up with my family and when I interact with them. I wonder how you see me and what it does to you when I interact with my siblings, with my parents. I often feel like you think I love them more and like I want to spend more time with them. Or when we involve other people in our family, sometimes it's hard because of how different they are culturally and because of my relationship and the way I am with them. I guess because of the way I was raised, we're so close. And that put a lot of extra tension. I mean, that's why I filed for divorce because the way his family is a massive problem for us. And it's like there's this part of me which I love them so much. You filed for divorce? Well, I mean, like almost. I emailed his mother that I'm doing it. It was like five weeks ago. I was like, that's it. This was the closest we've ever been to splitting up. And it's a situation where. One second, one second, because we're about to shift. He's an amazing non-sequitur. From all of what you just said, that's why I filed for divorce? From family, yeah, because of his relationship. And what happens to all what you just said? I was that hurt that I thought it erased it. I don't know. It was secondary. Because at the end of the day, I feel like if he's not going to be with me all the way and take my side, I need to be around and healthy until at least the kids are like 18 and can go and do whatever they want. So if I am the only one making sure I'm standing, then, yeah, I did think it was bigger than all the good stuff. The very behavior that she is bemoaning vis-a-vis his family and how he takes their side and how he loves them so much is exactly what initially attracted her, which was that he loved them so much. And so she thought, here is someone who knows to love, to be kind. To be loving in a family. To be a good dad. To be a good husband. To be everything I never had. But now that it wasn't all about her, it became intolerable. Too painful. And I was very surprised when she said, that's why I filed for divorce. First of all, given what had just proceeded. But also because, in fact, that is partly why you think you filed for divorce now, but it is equally why you married him 16 years ago. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Quince. Hate to break it to you, but now that it's August, that means summer is almost over. For some of you, that might be a relief. Autumn means cooler weather, which also means it might be time to find some cozy cold weather staples. Enter Quince. Quince specializes in effortless, high-quality essentials, like ultra-soft organic cotton and premium Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're beautifully tailored, built to last, and transition seamlessly from morning meetings to a nice dinner out. 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So whether you're a fan of the original Pumpkin Spice Latte or ready to go, ready to mix it up with an Iced Pumpkin Cream Chai, the new Iced Pumpkin Cream Matcha, or the new Iced Pumpkin Cream Shaken Espresso, you can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. You know, you completely, unfoundedly accused me of all these things which are a complete lie. At home, he said he's taking my side, obviously, because I didn't do anything. But to his family, not to upset this relative who he's not married to, he's mentally all there. I felt like he betrayed me more than like if he had an affair, basically. Because he knew how hurtful that was. And for me to find this text message, after he's telling me he's not socializing with this person, not talking to him, I find this text message saying, oh, I love you and I want to hang out with you. She's with a kid we can hang out. So this guy makes up a story that I need to tell him. And I'm like, oh, I love you. That I tried to belittle their relative by calling our dog, making up the name, choosing this, like, most insane. Can I just. Where are you going while all of this is happening now? Uh, I can respond to it. Like, I can. You're just waiting for your turn? I can certainly speak to it. No, no, no, don't. Don't. Because the whole situation. has very little to do with the dog and the relative and the names and all of that. You are mired into the story. It's the same as what I said about your parents. You're mired in the story and you're not seeing the pattern. You're not with me. That means you're against me. It's either or. You cannot. You cannot say this and do that. Ambiguity is inexistent in this situation. Finding ways to appease people so that one can continue to be in relationship cannot feature here. And you're about to throw your entire family, 16-year relationship, everything you've just highlighted that you value so much into the dumpster because of this? I don't want to demean it or devalue it, but it's like, seriously? Because I feel like the justice of being accused of something I haven't done and then he accused me of witchcraft if I send bad vibes to his art projects. Okay, where is your sense of humor? Where is your. Oh, this is an interesting plot. This is quite a play. It's so insane that it should be. Of course. A freaking. And where is your. Bonding around what families sometimes can create such elaborate schemes and stories. And where is your good deal with your family? I would have all of that if he was with. No. If I felt he's with me. No. Here is the thing. If he agreed with you and just said yes, like a good puppy, you would lose much respect for him. Because if he's a good puppy with you, he's going to be a good puppy with you. He's going to be a good puppy with everybody. And you like strong people with personality and integrity. What you're asking him, if he was to do so, would lessen your esteem for him. You'd feel better because he sided with you. Which he did at home. But you won't have much respect for him. Because what you just said is, I like your decency. I like the way you treat me. I like the way you treat people. I like it for others, but when it's me, I need you to just join me. So you find him expressing his love for the person who caused me so much hurt, you find that decent. Because I find it pacifying mental illness. It's never going to get fixed. I think that by putting yourself in the center of the plot, you are not helping him and he can't think. Well, that's for sure. Because he's busy making sure that he doesn't have you on his negative side. And then he can't really look at what's happening with the family. Because you've made it about you. And imagine my mother is not well and her receiving an email about how she. decided to end the relationship and being asked not to contact us, my mother is not in a good health. Yeah, but now we're going to start blaming people for heart attacks. So wait a minute. No, yes, yeah. I'm just saying, your families get along. Your first sentence is about how the mothers love each other. Your next thing is about how great of a dad he is and how much of a sense of family he has. And then the next thing is about how you are going to regulate how he's going to handle his family. I mean, if the guy is not well and out of his mind, then he needs to be the central figure. But you've made it about you. And now it's about the two of you and he's betraying you because he told you one thing and he went to handle his family another way. Because that's what we do in a collectivist culture. You tell everybody what they want to hear. I think you're right. And it's an art. If you want to navigate all these relationships, you have to tell each one that their soup is the best there's a lot of new ones there's a lot of oh my god it's not simple and especially when it's your own family too like we're talking about someone that's very close to me that i see as a close mentor and in someone that i owe as well like most of my family they they've done everything they could to make sure that i'm okay so for me it's not as simple as just speaking my mind saying why i immediately feel there's also this currency that goes back and forth right right but your strength is that you say things just as they come out his strength is that he can hold it a little bit scan the landscape and then navigate and negotiate the multiple connections and you can turn to him and say you are betraying me you are weak you are pandering to everybody and all of that but you can also look at him and just say it's quite amazing how you are able to juggle all these things and then you can say to him what do you think because you become artful at knowing what everybody else thinks and needs and wants and that usually goes hand in hand with not really knowing what you think anymore because you're busy in everybody else's psyche and that's where your strength comes in and now you start to have complementarity of high quality but this is a missed opportunity in effect this becomes a marital crisis you fight for divorce and my mom is very heartbroken over all of this another thing i could maybe share is that us moving back to the states from europe part of what we were excited about is to have the kids close to my family and so this changed everything we didn't expect it it put a lot of tension and pressure created a lot of problems for us what she's sharing here is probably just a percentage of things that have come up in the family that have caused issues for us but they're all about the same thing who do you fight for yes doesn't matter what the situation is that's why i'm saying don't get mired in the story in the details of the plot the dance is the same one each time you stand up for them not me you're in a triangular competition all the time the tension that's highlighted between them is that he cannot speak about himself outside of the context in which he sees himself vis-a-vis his family there is something in the way that he sees himself in the way that he sees himself in the way that he talks about the mother the uncle the sister that it's understandable why she experiences this in somewhat of a competitive way in which she needs to carve her place but on the other end it is also so that she really feels that he's there for her only when there's nobody else around not physically and not internally for him and that triangular competition you learned where and when because that usually doesn't start in adulthood it's a triangulation the only thing i can think of is um when my dad grew up the girl was extremely favored you know like my dad always wanted a dog never got in and the second she could talk and said she wants a dog there was a dog you know things like this were you your father's favorite he implemented identical like i mean i could burn the house tell him that he kept putting you first no my mother completely emotionally neglected me all my life and turned all her love to my brother and i was like oh my god i'm so sorry i'm so sorry my mother to even it out all right welcome to the family plot you will recognize that it's the same thing each time it's always about who comes first who gets the affection who gets the loyalty because the way i grew up that i was competing for my mother's love and him proving to you that you are number one is the greatest victory you can have i mean it's interesting we've talked about the two of you yeah and in a way we've talked more about your families than you so they're very very present in this but you're not always clear what their presence is doing to the two of you when you start talking about how your mom is still affected you are in effect saying to her my mom's well-being matters more than yours and i feel she's not off you don't experience your sense of self as separately from the family that you come from yes and you have tried very hard to create a sense of self that is different from the family that you come from without realizing how tight you are and so the question is how do you bring some more freedom and space and independence between the two of you and more adult connection between the two of you so that when you ask him things you don't just ask him things from a family triangular perspective but you ask him things as a partner the things you want from him are not from your partner they are all corrective measures to your childhood that's so crazy but i also with the kids i don't want to defend myself but i also never want them to feel the way i felt i know that oh do i know that the choice of homeschooling them and the choice of not finding anybody to leave them with over years when that happens it's i'm going to protect them from ever having to feel what i felt and hurt me so badly and you're doing it probably beautifully your kids don't feel lonely but the two of you are feeling more lonely than is necessary at this moment he can't convince you to go do something with him fun playful alive and there's a resentment that builds up inside me because there's a lot that i bottle in as well like my emotions i don't express them all the time i'm more thinking about feelings rather than feeling them in my body and so when we don't get that time to ourselves i become more resentful i start to distance myself then if i spend time with my family i feel like sometimes she might be a little bit jealous and i'm like oh my god i might go out with my sister and she might tell me like oh what did you guys do and i can already feel that there's some kind of a questioning or attention and i can tell you why because he has like a different measurement for people or the whole world and his family and when he's with his sister she's the most brilliant person he knows he wants to take pictures with her he loves her so you know all these things he never does with me he never wants to be with me he never wants to take photographs with me don't do that because you're doing it on the heels of him telling you i want to go out with you i want to have fun with you i want to be playful with you and you are more hooked to your jealousy and your competition than your desires with him it's off you understand he doesn't want to take pictures with you you repeat that all the time and it becomes a habit it becomes the story because relationships are our stories and we have this tendency to confuse our stories with the truth all of us but honestly like when he says his mom is not well i want to eat this table right now how mad it makes me because his mom is not well for a very very long time hold on because we were talking about the two of you so for a minute we're not going to bring a family member in here okay we're going to just meet the couple and i want to make sure that you get the space you know you were talking about how you're holding things in yes and how it's in effect, you find yourself constantly in a choice between speaking up and saying what you think or feel versus managing her reaction. And the more you manage her reaction and the more resentful you are becoming and the more resentful you become and the more you take distance and the more she starts to feel jealous and the more you have to navigate the competing needs of other people. And the less, what did you say so beautifully? I think about my feelings because I can't feel them. Right. And that's detrimental to me, to my well-being. It's funny, he told me the other day, he's like, the second I saw you, I knew I can be like a yes guy. So you find me interesting, basically. Yes. I couldn't agree with you more. And you're losing that. I'm losing that. And you're not going to like yourself and you're not going to like her. And instead of waiting till she agrees with you, bring your initiative, not as a task, as a need, as a wish. Right. So I should stand my ground, be more assertive. But not in opposition to her. You are assertive at this moment when you are in opposition to her. Sometimes you may just say, let's do this and then be reassuring. To her. Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. And what I would expect is her being in opposition to me at that point. I tend to be very optimistic and I tend to be like, hey, let's do this. This is going to be fantastic. It's going to be good for us. We're going to experience some joy. Right. And she might be like, no, you might only want to do this for selfish reasons or like you're making these types of friends because it serves you in a particular way. And so that's why she's not interested. And she doesn't join that call to like do something like different. She won't join me in the experience. And then what happens? That can escalate into an argument. It could turn into something quite big where she starts bringing up things from the past that I haven't done well. And then at that point, I'm just like, all right. So. So that's part of the reason why I'm very careful about what we choose to do. Like the holiday party is an example. Like I knew that maybe she wasn't going to be like a hundred percent thinking this is going to be a good thing. I didn't want to be the funnest thing in the world. But I did know that at the end of it, she's going to be very glad and happy that she got to do it. But there was some work. How did you do it? How did you manage to get her to join you? Get me out of here. Yes. I like the humor with which you, if you could have some of that in your house, would go long. The humor. Humor is important. Getting her to really imagine herself being next to me and how important it was for me to have her there. I kept telling her it's going to be great for you. I kept telling her it's going to be great for you to come. I want everyone to meet you. Lovely. And she was in and out of it. Like she was like, no, I'm not going. Yes, I'm going. There was a dance. She gives you a run for your money. You're good at this. My God. This is to hone your chops. Every time she resists, you tell her, I so love how you're making me stand up for myself. How you're strengthening my will. The example of the holiday party, they highlight once more what I called earlier in the session, the high quality complementarity between them. On some level, not consciously at all, he chose her because she would help him stand up for himself. She would actually help him say what he needs, say what he wants, which she's very good at, including when he wants her to come with him to the party. And on the other side, she chose him with a sense that he could bring her the warmth of family that she never had and the love that he could share with them. She imagined he could also bestow upon her. And that complementarity by which one person brings connection and the other person brings individuation is a very powerful pool of attraction between two people. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break. So stay with us. With Share My Trip from Uber, you can send your live trip location to the ones who matter most, like Dan and Hannah, who always wait up to make sure their daughter gets back to her college dorm room. Or Tiffany, who's running late as usual. And her friends are tracking her trip to make sure she's actually on her way. Look, she's right there. She's three minutes away. Or Sam, who never goes anywhere without her roommate knowing exactly where she is. Some journeys are meant to be shared. Share your ride in real time with Share My Trip on Uber. One more way Uber is putting safety at every turn. Learn more on the Uber app. Hey, friends. Olivia from Oli. Between new routines and the ultimate group project known as parenting, you need science-backed solutions that work with your life. That's where Oli comes in. Start your mornings off right with Maltese-made to support nutrition and immune health. Choose from our lineup of gut-supporting probiotics. And we've got occasional sleep support to help the whole fam chase their big dreams. Head back to class with the number one gummy supplement brand. Stock up on Oli.com today. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling? Smart move. Another smart move? Getting help from one of State Farm's 19,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto. Bundling. Just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. One other small thing that I might add here. So for New Year's, we went out of the city, we went upstate. Not the best time of my life. Those are the things she loves to do the most, where there's the fewest amount of people, where we're not in public, where we're in nature. That's what I was going to tell her. While I tend to now go more into the serenity of nature, like we were making fires in this upstate property. There was absolutely nothing else to do. We were making the fires with the kids. At night, we were making puzzles. There was no technology doing. My husband's idea of good time, take the kids, grab them, and eat junk food and watch movie on Times Square. For me, that's a big screen. You take them from screen they looked at home, from screen on TV. And then I was like, well, so since you were already up there, why didn't you take them to Central Park? You know, because I like present activities. I like much more pure and healthier in every single way versus his idea, the things he wants to do. Of course, I like to see movies here and there, but like so many times he offers ideas and he doesn't offer help with the logistic. Like how are we going to do it then? So if we're going to do this, are you going to help me too? Okay. May I? Yes. He comes with an idea. You say, what should we do to make it happen? Instead of even vocalizing it. You are in the criticism and into the resentment before anything. And if they want to schlep together to Times Square, your kids are being homeschooled. It's not like they're going to get contaminated. Yeah. You care about certain things and it's very important and you value them, but it doesn't have to be purist in order for it to stand. It will stand. So when he comes with an idea, you're not responding to the idea. You're responding to your abandonment of this man. The response is instantly, I'm all alone with everything. It's a response from your childhood. Me with the kids is like me with my brother. And I have to attend to everything. And you fall in the trap every time. You see it? What can I do? Well, you tell me. You're smart. It's a pattern. It's a pattern. You know, don't play helpless. Because you take on the role of the victim in the house. I'm so good. I'm so kind. I care about everyone. I'm always happy to be wrong. And maybe that's part of it too. You come home with an idea. And she goes into the book. But who's going to do this? And who's going to do that? What do you do? Sometimes it does upset me to the point where, you know, we argue about it. It makes me feel like I hate that I have to get to this level where we have to discuss it in this manner. Don't. See, the thing is that you respond as if she's the one leading you. I have to lead more. Yes. Yeah. Some ideas are. Some ideas are easier to implement than others. Sometimes I tell her, hey, why don't you go with your friends? Because I see it does her a lot of good as well to be doing things on her own. Of course. So I'm like, why don't you go with your friends and just take a trip? And that's something I do bring up pretty every now and then. So it's also those types of ideas. Never. He's never been with the kids and the dog alone. I took the kids to Europe. I had all of them for six weeks. He goes on business trip seven days at a time. So why don't you? She has the opportunity. sometimes we all know that but why don't you is not about you because you're gonna think i'm crazy even more but no i have not had that thought one because i don't think he takes care of all of them as well as i would i have not had that thought and i want you to not necessarily okay take that detour okay so what did you say because i don't think he takes care of them as well as i do yeah yeah and i'm not there and i guess at the end it goes back to my childhood where the fraction of me leaving them and possibly them having like a lower quality of everything in a way you know i mean like they're not gonna go to park for as long they're not gonna maybe you know now as i'm saying it sounds so insane honestly it's not insane it's raw it's fragile it's traumatic yeah i feel like i can't leave them right but not because of him and it's actually not because of him okay we need to establish that once you need to establish that it's not because of him there is a level i called it rigidity i will control this to the nth degree to make sure that there is not an ounce of what i felt in my childhood that my kids will feel what is that jesus christ how did i took it to that level it's almost like unreasonable you know it's not almost but it's understandable there's something so not grounded in reality but grounded in trauma grounded in early deprivation where it becomes a dogma to the point where him one minute with the kids alone after i've described how much is a fantastic father is inconceivable to me and it's not about him 100 agree but what i would love is opportunities for me to also grow as a father to be alone with my kids for me to like do things my way not just the way she wants them if you are able to vacate the space and let him take over it's not just to see if he's capable and if he can do it his way or as well as you because you're not the boss of the of the criteriums here of what is good parenting but the most important reason for you to do this is that if you can allow him and you can begin to trust him you will finally take care of the original wound that you're not all alone with everything on your shoulders No, I agree. I have a hundred percent to do it. It's not just to see if he's capable. It's actually. It doesn't even matter if he's. I mean, we all know he's capable. He's more than capable. Okay. Can you say that to him? I know you're capable of doing it, even if you do it a little bit differently. I know you're very particular, but yeah, I can. I know nobody's going to be dead when I come back. There's things that I could do at home, but what I also need is like the feeling good and that you trust me and that we're like on this mutual mission. So when she doesn't trust you, this may help you. It's not because she doesn't think you're not capable. When she doesn't trust you, it's because she is holding on tooth and nail to that voice inside of her that says, there's nobody there for you. And you have to do it all alone. She's dying. She's dying to let go of that voice, but she also has built an entire life around that voice. And so she is afraid that if she loosens it a little bit, the whole thing can dissolve on the spot. It's irrational. It's not real, but the fear is very real. And that I'm a bad parent also. Yes, yes, yes, of course. Because you're trying to be the parent that your mother never was. You know, it's all that theme. So when you are talking to her and she doesn't trust you, don't start saying, I'm capable. Just tell her you're not alone. That's a great tip. I love that. Do you understand? It's about talking to that part of her that is afraid to loosen this thing even a millimeter because her entire coping, survival, survival strategy is organized around this. This idea that if you, what was it? Don't take them the same amount of time in the park is going to make her be a bad mother. It's intense. It's extreme. It's debilitating. And it's not allowing her to go away with her friends, to go see a movie, to go with you to a party. She's drying up in her own well. And when you think she's controlling, which of course she is because control is the mechanism with which she tries to protect this identity in your head, just think fear. Fear is not the word terror. Tell me what has been your experience hearing all of this? Well, absolutely. Mind blowing. First of all, I can't believe it. It sounds so true to me. It rings like with every fiber of my body, I think that's what it is. You know, that's where it all comes from. So I'm shocked that I didn't see it myself where it comes from. I'm shocked. I didn't see how rigid that was, but I almost feel like I have a green card now. I'm like, I'm not a bad mom. If I do that, you know, well, that you have like now some kind of permission or confirmation that you can take care of yourself. It doesn't make me. I'm not a bad mom. Of course. It's so embarrassing. It makes me feel like I'm not intelligent person. You know, no, like how could I not see that and put it together myself. It's always easier to see it in others. And it's not that you didn't see it. Is that a part of you that made that vow a long time ago is organized around. You're not. Seeing it. Otherwise you're going to go off for a weekend and it has tried to convince you your entire life that one evening away is going to affect their entire future. Yeah. And it is first of all, inaccurate. Second of all, you may end up proving your mother wrong, but you may not do right by your kids. I'm in my marriage. Probably your marriage. That's a given that is not a, maybe here's the irony. This is the first time in the history of human kind that the survival of the family depends on the happiness of the couple on the long list of what your kids need. Attending to your relationship is huge because it actually will give them the family that you so much wanted them to have. It's the most. Important thing. This is actually not where the session ended. They had planned to go all together with the family because the children actually had accompanied them and we're waiting the entire time in another room and the family had decided to go for lunch in the neighborhood where she used to work. And the suggestion was that after lunch, Dad and the kids would do their thing in town, picking up on him being alone with the children in the city, but for her to go and do something of her own and especially to walk around in the old neighborhood where she used to work before she was married when she still felt free and playful and partied a lot and had a very different connection of who she was then. What happened to them was actually quite interesting and invite you to listen to the first part. And invite you to listen to the follow up on my subscription on Apple Podcasts where I put all the follow ups of many of the sessions that we do. But in listening to this session right now as I arrive at the end, it's clear that I did a lot of work with her and less with him. I didn't focus on her because the issue was bigger on her side. I focused on her because I. I tend to go where I think there is greater flexibility and nimbleness for change, and I felt it whenever I would say something. I knew that she was loosening the knots that were tying her together, and so if she could shift, he would follow this is in. you want to know a little bit about what goes in the mind of this particular couple's therapist. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianne Atten. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul. The one and only pumpkin spice latte and the deliciously smooth, iced pecan crunch latte have arrived and are ready to sip all season long. So whether you're a fan of the original pumpkin spice latte or ready to mix it up with an iced pumpkin cream chai, the new iced pumpkin cream matcha or the new iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso, you can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks.