'You are a sapphire' - When Divorce Threatens to Crush but Jesus Affirms

Season 2, Episode 12, Carry Shales with Katie Amanda. You are a sapphire when divorce threatens to crush, but Jesus affirms. When you say I do, it's till death do you part, so you know you're going to die. One of you is going to die before the other. You know that that's the ultimate end of the marriage. You know that's life's course. Whereas this is an unnatural part of the story. One particular time I was chopping veg in the kitchen and the presence of God just came down. Like nothing I've really ever experienced and he was just so close and so present and I knew he wasn't going to leave me. You know I knew he wasn't going to forsake me and it also knew that he had compassion on this very situation that he could see it. Well hello and welcome back to Carry Shales. I'm Catherine Grimes, I'm your host and it's always amazing to have you listening in, to have you connected with us. We are now Carry Shales media, a charity and a team of women who believe the same thing, which is about providing a very special space for you as women and listeners, to encourage one another, to empower one another and to connect one another ultimately of course, by pointing to Jesus through the stories that we have unpacked and unearthed in our life. Those stories of treasure today in my little studio here. I'm connected via zoom with a beautiful lady. I've been starting to get to know Katie Amanda. Hi Katie. Hello. So good to connect with you today. So yes, it is a zoom recording. So we apologise that if there are any sounds externally that come into the recording, we'll do our best to minimize them for you. So Katie is based in Whitney Oxfeter. She is a photographer and a mum to three adult children and one very chilled co-cospanial buddy. She can always be found with a camera strung around her neck and she loves to create relaxed photographs that show people in their happy places. When her camera isn't in her hand on those rare moments, I have to say, you can find her dancing around the kitchen to Whitney Houston or anything from the 60s. I wonder which Whitney is your favourite Katie. I'd have to think about that. Okay, maybe we'll ask you a bit later again. Katie loves God. She loves putting him first and she wants everyone everywhere to know how valuable they are to him. So welcome Katie. Thank you for joining us. So, I'm so glad you're joining us. So, I'm so glad you're really honoured to be. But I'm happy today. We're honoured to hear your stories. That's amazing. So, can you recall which is your best Whitney moment? I'm actually heading more into Elton, John again with Crocodile Rock. Whitney, maybe it's that. So, let me close every door. I'm not going to sing it because that will. You're not going to give us a red dition. No, no, no. They don't need that. But just to add, my youngest is not an adult. She's 15. So, they're two oldest adults now. But, yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. Yeah. Little amendment to the buyer there. Absolutely. Okay. Brilliant. So, Katie, just take us straight back then to your early childhood memories. What was the shape of your family growing up and was God a part of it? Just set the scene for us right from the outset. I was the eldest of three. My mum and dad, my dad worked very, very hard. And my mum was a homemaker. And I've got one sister that's 15 months and 15 days younger. And then a brother that's four years younger than me was God a part of it. My mum took us to Sunday school and she curled our hair, put us in floral dresses. We went to Holy Trinity, Wellington. Sometimes you'd get shushed by the old bitty. And my sister and I didn't love it. There was a definite sense of who God was. But we would kind of dare each other to blow raspberries in the hymns and get louder. And, you know, there was a lot of people think we would make sure that we weren't being, you know, overshadowed by the song. We would a little bit cheeky. And they're under under duress rather than the outer choice. Okay, okay. So, I mean, when you turned 12 KC talking about this before we recorded together, you told me there was a real gear shift. So your mum gave you the option to choose whether you wanted to attend church at that point. And with all those memories with your sister growing up, you were blowing raspberries and trying to eke out those hymns. You said no, as surprisingly, and made your own decisions from that point. So tell us, what did you say yes to at that stage at that point in your life? I was always basically staying out without telling my parents and yeah, I was just really rebellious and went in the complete opposite direction. And kind of wanted attention from anywhere else. And, you know, I was in the wrong crowd really. At school, I was on three different reports in year eight, I think. I was just a proof that I was there, one to say that I'd done my homework, one, I can't remember the other one. Yeah, just bunking. But basically, boys was my definite focus. So you're saying that you played true in during that time as well? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, I didn't really love school, always felt like I was stupid, always struggled in that, you know, that comparison to others. My family are really bright and I'm not saying I'm not, but I definitely at that time didn't believe that at all about myself. But I mean, presumably that sense of self belief or lack of it must have come from somewhere. So you've told us a little bit about your family setup. You were clearly very close to your siblings and your mum was a key figure. You haven't yet talked about your dad, but you did say to me that things weren't always straightforward as you grew up and that there was actually a measure of abuse that you experienced in that he sadly treated you quite aggressively and called your names that left you feeling worthless and presumably created that sense of not knowing who you were. I know and it's beautiful that you've since worked through this with your dad and you have an amazing relationship with him as a dad and a daughter. But at that time Katie, it must have left an imprint on you on what must have been a formative stage of your development as a young woman. So tell us in that place of struggle and navigating that dynamic with your dad and your family. How did that make you feel and how how did you seek to fill up that gap of love you've talked about boys and reaching out to boys but tell us more how did you find love in other places. Yeah, so I have asked dad's permission to share this and he was fine just to say and I do love my dad and it is good. But yeah, things definitely I would say it wouldn't feel necessarily safe all the time and he worked a broad a lot. He worked you know long hours and there comes a level of stress with you know that pace of life. Yeah, I was quite young. I can remember some things happening that weren't great and not to my siblings but although they did witness things so more on the aggressive side of things and entering into high school age. Age 12, I would just you know go to things like the role of disco, which was brilliant. We had my first kiss there. I was quite physical. I'm quite a tactile person. So yeah, being out and about and you know I didn't drink loads but they were the odd time where I was completely you know almost paralytic. So there are definitely some choices that I made within that time that weren't good including kind of a reaction to some things that had happened I you know took an overdose when I was 14 and things were difficult with probably more my dad than anyone around that that age. I mean that that's very harrowing for you Casey that you took an overdose age 14 literally to end it all can you tell us a bit more about that you know looking back. I don't know that I definitely wanted to actually end it all but it was definitely a cry for help and like I think as a child I remember picturing living on Mars and in Mars I had safety and friends and I think that is that that is gapism that in your brain I think our skills are really good at fantasising a land or like you know thinking about things you know we sometimes looking at things we've rose tinted specs and you know we we're quite good at building the picture up and I think I was quite good at that. But yeah so taking the overdose was just enough a symptom of pain and a reaction to. just feeling kind of humiliated in a situation and just wanting to get away from it. So I wouldn't say I was clinically depressed or at that time it was more of a "I need attention and I need it now, it's desperate." You know? And did you find that attention, that hunger for attention, asswaged to some degree in the arms of subsequent physical relationships you had through your teens? Was it a driver that you were just desperate to find that affirmation? Yeah, yeah for sure. And you know, around that age I started a relationship that lasted about three years, which that was pretty love-hate relationship. It was very dramatic and stupid sometimes, but you know he was into drugs and I just wasn't really into that, but yeah that's just needing to feel held and accepted and you just, you know, people are different aren't they? But that was my vice I suppose, yeah. Well not so much of a vice as you say, a cool for help, you know, a constant driver actually because you described how you'd been ultimately denied love and security from a paternal figure in your life as a child. And so naturally you were looking for that, you were looking to fill that through other male figures that you encountered. But what's absolutely beautiful Katie about your story and I'm sure that many listeners can resonate with this is that there is one male figure who has the capacity to transform everything and we know that his name is Jesus Christ. And I'd love you to tell us how in the midst of these different relationships with guys, you actually had an encounter with Jesus. Tell us about that and how it impacted your decision from that point onwards. Okay. So I was going out of this guy. I had mates, I didn't trust them, we'd always gossip about each other as soon as one of us left the room. So you knew it was happening about me behind my back as well. So although on the surface it looked like I had these things, there was something missing and my French teacher was leading a CEO and it was Carton and girls. So it was a pretty massive school and one of my form was going to it. Now given the size of the school and the size of the CEO in comparison, you know, the fact that I was in a form with somebody that was already going. So it was going to be easy to get into it. You know, you need a friend, don't you, to go to these things. Yes. And also this particular teacher has by that point probably lived in 20 different places. So that timing, I always just think is amazing that she was actually teaching in my school. And you remember I was, didn't have a great reputation with the teachers. When I went, I thought, well, I know all about this because of mum, but I didn't pray and that was the Wednesday. Then they invited me to a talk, you know, a evangelistic talk called Complete the Picture. And it was Jonathan Conrath speaking. This was the 24th of the 10th 97. So I would have been 15 and he just shared about Jesus dying and what have you got to lose? And yes, it was, it was quite black and white. But I just knew that Jesus was who I was missing. So I went up, prayed the prayer, that sinner's prayer gave my life to Jesus, got filled with the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues and then had, you know, left to go and get the cab. And I had to get from this hall across the dual carriageway. And so there was a big bridge. And I literally just skipped across that bridge. I was just so elated and so happy and just, I just knew God had done something pretty amazing. And for some people when they become Christians, they, you know, don't feel ready to share it. And it takes some time. But for me, the first thing I wanted to do was share this because this was too good to keep to myself. So the cabbie got it all full throttle. I love that. That should be a TV presenter or something. And then I got home. No one was home. I was desperate to tell them. But so I wrote my mom and dad a letter and just put it under their door. And I also found my ground and left a message on her voice mail. So I was desperate to share Jesus straight away. No, evangelist. You were, hey, Casey. You're like, "That's fantastic." But I was still going out of this guy and he said something about it's like, we're at the train station and you've got on the train and I'm not ready to get on the train. So can you just wait for me and then we'll go on the train together. And now I see that was just, you know, kind of way of controlling the situation. And I should have just gone, this is, this is, Jesus is real. He's true. I believe in him and I want to follow him. And I should have just abandoned that train station and got on. But I was in two camps for a while because I felt that false sense of responsibility didn't want to fit him to feel abandoned. And so that went on, you know, a bit longer than necessary. And then it was our youth leaders who sat us down and said, "I think you need to have a three month break because they could see it wasn't a great relationship." And I needed that permission. I needed somebody else to come in and help me kind of get out because I was trapped and in a relationship that wasn't healthy for you ultimately. And I couldn't quite do it myself. And of course, Australia, I got into another relationship and another relationship and just, there was still, there was still work to be done in that. I really did believe in Jesus and I really wanted to follow him. But I was still stuck in a bit of a cycle of behaviour that wasn't great. And I think that's that's very real, isn't it? The way you've described it there, but that's often a dynamic that we face. That even when we bring Jesus into the picture, it doesn't mean necessarily that all those behaviours in our lives that perhaps aren't God honouring just gets apt straight away. It can be a process, it can be a gradual thing. God is a loving father. He's so gentle and yet like tender steel. He's so gentle, isn't he? But he's firm and he will deal with the things in our life that aren't healthy for us, but bit by bit by bit generally. Sometimes it's a once, but usually it's bit by bit. I absolutely love that image of UKT as a 15-year-old running across that bridge skipping. I mean, it's frallicking. It just, it sounds such a beautiful, beautiful image. I mean, as a photographer, you could probably encapsulate that. Couldn't you? And one of those, this is a happy moment, supremely happy moment. And I think it's really important to say that, with Godless, if what happened after it for you, in continuing to navigate that question of, you know, do I still continue this relationship or do I step out of this? You know, actually, there was no condemnation from God, you know, and it didn't negate the decision you'd made at 15 to say, "Jesus is here in my heart." You know, it was a process you were working it through. So Katie, let's fast forward, then, to when you were 19, you were studying photography at college at this stage, a real passion for you, and you went on to actually become a female youth worker. So tell us about that journey, and how you met the man who subsequently became your husband. Okay, so 19, I was working for a lovely guy called Colin Smith at Stonecoach Studios, and my French teacher was getting married. She'd asked our company to go and shoot the wedding. And so I'd not really been going to church, I'd kind of fall in a way. And then what I love about this is that God used the very thing that He's gifted me at, in photography, to bring him back to Him. And He knows that so well. He knows, you know, what's going to make us wake up. So I was shooting her wedding as a second photographer, and the worship, I was just like, "Oh, man, yes, I'm all in. I'm all in." And I'm very quickly, we went to a main year on a mission. We went to Devon on a youth thing as well. And then very quickly, I became aware of this thing called Bible College, which I had no idea that existed. And a week later, I'd moved from Sarri to Oxford to study the Bible for a year. So not, as my dad would sometimes tell people, "Going to Oxford, uni." No, no, it was just a diploma. It was just a year out to get here. So at Bible College, I see it, okay. Yeah. But nonetheless, it taught me like so much about friendship and community that you, I don't know, it was a really precious time. And also meeting so many godly guys that I totally trusted and just restored my hope in what, what man is, and the purity and integrity that was just all wrapped in, you know, with those guys there. From there, didn't feel like it was right to go back to Sarri and didn't really know where there. but felt I had been going, I'd been part of the church in Gloucester, each of us got placed in a church placement that you needed to go and serve. So mine was Gloucester and I was there eight months, but the whole time thinking what am I doing here Lord, I don't really know. But you know, I think had I had that experience at Bible College and gone back to Surrey, I'm not sure that I would have been free enough to not go back into that old cycle of behaviour. So I think it was a fresh start for me and then got asked to do the youth work in Blackbird Leasing Oxford. So, age 21, I came back to Oxford to do that and the guy that became my husband was also was the male youth worker and we got to know each other very well, very quickly and got married, something like nine months after meeting. We worked together, he was very funny and very tall, six foot five and we just became really close. And you talked Katie about being at Bible College and really having a sense of your perspective of men restored by witnessing those around you who had real integrity, who wanted to honour God and how healing that must have been for you. Subsequently, you met your husband, you know, perhaps in your mind you're like, yep, I'm living the dream here I am, you know, I'm now married to a man who can fulfill me to some degree that God is my first. But actually things, things unraveled for you and it's deeply, deeply sad and it just cuts me still to think that 10 years into your marriage things changed unexpectedly for you all. And as a result of moving house and your husband taking on a new working role, he was working much much longer hours, but you did later discover that this was actually the start of an affair. So that must have been devastating for you Katie, take us back to that time in your life. How did you feel in the wake of that discovery as a woman as a wife and what happened next for you? Yes, so I would say the marriage was good at first. We had three children and we moved to Whitney together. He joined a different role. So we both left the youth work. We were there for about 10 years and yeah, shift work is hardcore. It's hard for a, you know, family. You know, I know people that do manage it and they are able to have good marriages, but for us that wasn't the case. It was just really stressful moving house having three small children. There was a lot of stress, a lot of outer things that were difficult and, you know, I want to say, you know, though, you know, there was adultery. I wasn't as honoring and I wasn't a perfect wife, not that they exist, but there were things, you know, I'm 100% at fault for the things that I did in the breakdown of the marriage as well. So I think that's important to say from my point of view, but, um, yes, of course. Yeah, but it was absolutely devastating to find out that he'd had a two year affair and then and I felt, you know, I remember phoning up one of my friends and her husband answered the phone. And it, I mean, I was on the floor and he just said that explains it. I've just been sobbing on my bed and I had no idea why that what that was and I just, I still now think that was the Holy Spirit preparing somebody else in my church family that there was something pretty devastating going on. And just feeling like someone else was carrying a bit of my pain with me and even now it chokes me up to think so anyway, his wife came round, scoop me up. She stayed with me, tell about 2 a.m. My husband wasn't due about to four. Yeah, I thought, oh, well, I can't really come front in the middle of the night because I've got three children don't want to wait them out with shouting in ever to shouting. Let him sleep and then her husband took the kids to church. I went for a walk with the pastor and then the pastor came back with me to wake him up to confront him without any children around. And because he's a bloke and a godly bloke, he asked questions that I wouldn't have thought to ask in that moment because it was the pastor. Sorry, just to interject, you're talking about the pastor asking your husband these questions. He asked if it was still going on, which, you know, what I'd read in the email that I discovered was he was ending it. And you know, so I was like, well, at least it's end to get and, you know, I need to forget. I knew I needed to forgive. And I remember getting up and kneeling down by him and holding his hand and looking at him. Knowing that I needed to forgive, but of course, there's an element of a hook there that I wanted to win. I didn't want to lose him to another woman and that feeling of I've lost and, you know, I wanted to cling on for the sake of my children. But, you know, actually, that wasn't meant to be really. And, you know, we were, I prayed for two years. My friends and I would fast once a week. Obviously, you don't get married to get divorced. And it is, it's heartbreaking. But holding on to something that is dead. You know, being in that limbo period is, you know, very painful because you're living in false hope. And you know, it says something like a multi in the Bible. It says something about hope. Hope deferred makes the heart sick. That is the one. Yes. And yeah, so it was a long time. And we did mediation and things. But yeah, and, you know, my kids are at this stage, 76 and three. They were young enough for it to be kind of hard and a hard hard road to walk. But for the whole family, as you say, I mean, I've never experienced divorce myself personally, but I've witnessed it. I've seen the impact the aftermath. And, you know, for everybody in that scenario, it's devastating, isn't it? Including the one who may have wanted ultimately out. It is still devastating for them. Also, there is a severing that has been there. Isn't there physical emotional? Yeah, sorry, can I say on that severing bit? I think there's something just with I can't speak to losing a husband through death. But there is that you are severed from somebody you've become one with, you know, it's not just like, oh, you kind of let go of a friend or whatever seasons move on, but you someone you've been one with. And then it is suddenly like, it's two sides of the same coin. And I think it's that feeling of rejection that you have to walk out. There were times I thought emotionally, you know, when you say I do, it's till death do you part. So you know, you know, you're going to die. So you know, that's, you know, that's life's course. And yet after divorce, you still have to encounter that person. If you've got children, you still have to do the either co parenting or parallel parenting or sometimes non existent other side of parenting. You still have that having to walk out and forgive even though they're still alive and they've chosen this choice. So Katie, I mean, you have been so raw, so vulnerable, so honest with us. And I really want to honor you by saying thank you. But also, you know, you've sought to honor your spouse who, who hurt you so deeply, you know, you've sought to forgive. You've sought to walk through and navigate that very, very painful place after that divorce. And I think, you know, we know as listeners, don't we? That the crucial ingredient in those circumstances actually being made be beautiful. Dare I say it in all that pain is the influence and the action intervention of Jesus of God in the mix. So you've talked about the realities of how painful it was for you. But how did you experience the reality that God was with you in this enormously painful set of circumstances? You did talk about the church coming alongside you. And I think that's an amazing tool for all of us as church family worldwide that we can come alongside those who are struggling, you know, in our communities and our families, whatever it is. But how did you really experience the sense of God meeting you directly? Okay, so it says in the Bible, God is close to the broken hearted. And I listened about seven times to this preach on love and forgiveness. I listened to it so much. But there was one particular time I was chopping veg in the kitchen and the presence of God just came down like nothing I've really ever experienced. And he was just so close and so present and I knew he wasn't going to leave me, you know, I knew he wasn't going to forsake me. and also knew that he had compassion on this very situation that he could see it. So I knew that he wasn't distant, he was so close and you know he lives in me and he doesn't let us go in those times. But you know you've talked about God is close to the brokenhearted and he really is and isn't it amazing how one of the particular characteristics of God is to reveal his presence most handgently when we need it most. So I love that. That's utterly beautiful that you really experienced that. But he also, he whispered something to you, didn't he Katie? And I know that the buzzword is sapphires, beautiful jewel of sapphires. So tell us what was it that God spoke to you and why did it mean so much to you? I can't remember the date or you know what where we were in the divorce you know all the separation but I remember driving and just feeling like I really just miss my husband you know like he's my teammate and he's just gone and just really missing and I just felt God and it okay there's no actual physical ring but felt like he put this sapphire ring with surrounded by diamonds on my ring finger and felt him say I'm your husband and it is that in the Bible you know he's our rock he's our salvation and he is that covering and yeah okay he's not a physical person he's invisible so you can't actually give him a physical hug in that sense but just felt you know that real I am not alone and he is with me he is not going to leave me and I just felt him saying that really as I was driving no I yeah it was before the divorce so it took me about two years because I thought I want to give it two years before I proceed with this and then I met three different vaccines with the different different lawyers that was sort of phoning and finding out vaccine I thought I've got to look up what this word means listen name means and it means noble and I thought yes like that's how I think God wants me to handle this and not that I always did but felt that calling into that and the vaccine that I found was wearing exactly the same ring that God put on my finger in that car and it was just that confirmation that he sees and he knows yes you are a sapphire you are precious you are beloved you are you are valuable to me yes yes and you know let's be honest as you said Katie no one gets married to get divorced you know it was never your intention to get married and then elective or swallow that so you know that's not what goes through our heads when we're walking up the aisle is it as women in the aftermath of that divorce did you feel demoralised and that your image of marriage had been tainted what's your vision of marriage today oh my vision of marriage I mean my kids over the over the years have had moments of saying I'm never going to get married because this could happen and how horrendous it is but I encourage them to look at people that do have good solid faithful marriages where they're honouring one another and you can just see the love and playfulness as well so I guess yes I fully believe in marriage I'm a wedding photographer after all of course of course love I love the romance so yeah so there's a complete absence of bitterness in your heart Katie which actually is testament to your journey of forgiveness which which is beautiful really beautiful I mean it is a journey there's still moments where you go you know am I stepping into judgment here because of this or that and it is a definite journey forgiveness is a process it's not a right I've done that now that's that's that's healed that's all over I think yeah they'll you know some people in our lives give us more chance to exercise that forgiveness muscle than others I love the way you phrase that because it is so true yes yes that forgiveness muscle we can all exercise that can't we Katie yes and God very often gives us opportunities to do so so yes I hear you I hear you so you are as you say you love the romance of the weddings that you photograph and you know that comes across in the photos that you capture so are you content in your current circumstances now as a single woman I mean what do your dreams and hopes look like for you I mean I'm on one sense I am happily single I'm pretty content and life is full you know I'm busy with lots of jobs that I have and different roles but I would love to get married you know I do believe in it and yeah there is certain elements that I think are just that would be you know lovely to have that but you have to be content with what you've got and being thankful for what you've got and actually you know comparison is the for joy isn't it so if I spent my whole time being jealous of these particular these couples or even you know families you know like sometimes I'll shoot families and some dads the photos are so much better when this happens the some dads are so hands-on to the point that the mums are barely doing anything because they've got that teamwork sust that's another kind of point where the enemy can push my heart to feel jealous because we don't have that we don't have a male but we all have those triggers Katie as women we all have those triggers where the enemy can ultimately target us and leave us feeling oh gosh you know we've moved away from God's best we've allowed thoughts into our mind that are then impacting our actions in negative ways so I don't think that's about condemnation but I do think you're right it's about transparency isn't it and you know that's that's part of your ongoing journey so is there anything Katie that you would say then to women who like you have experienced that heartbreak of divorce it was through circumstances beyond their control and they've wrestled perhaps with a sense of betrayal due to a spouse or partner's unfaithfulness how would you come alongside those women how would you encourage them to cling onto God as their most important relationship ever okay I would be singing songs of God's faithfulness declaring how faithful and good God is I would be encouraging them to look at his fingerprints in your situation so you know like with my dad my relationship with my dad got restored through the divorce in in many ways and we do have you know a great relationship it's not perfect what relationship is but seeing how God has brought good out of bad has brought me life and hopefully it sets my children up for success in that that they can you know if they're moaning about something I'll say right three things you're thankful for you know just go like speak out and count your blessings and hear it hear it and let it land instead of dwelling on the victim mentality because actually yeah there is a season and you know plugging into people in the church that you just really respect and love and you know that they're further on in the journey than you even if they haven't walked your particular path you know plugging into pastors or you know somebody to disciple you in it because the daying in bitterness is it is erosive isn't it it's just so destructive so and I'm not saying by any stretch that I've always walked that in the right way but I think praising when it's really hard you know my car broke down the other day still in the garage there are a lot of things that were really difficult in that situation even when it looks really bleak and difficult and complicated really seeing God's hands in it and being grateful for what we've got so I think you know even if I end my days as a single woman that is okay because I know that God you know Jesus is the one I'm going to meet at the end of the day in heaven and that's my main relationships my priority and that will be the case whether my status changes or not but my status isn't the most important thing about me you know yes is a choice of perspective isn't it you know that we and that's what carish houses all about that we are intentionally seeking out those glimpses of beauty in the darkest places in the most painful circumstances that very often are beyond our control because let's be frank you know any control in our lives isn't illusion anyway we don't have control and I just think it's been remarkable hearing your story Katie hearing you're really stark honesty about every aspect of it and you know would you say that looking back through let's say the whole thread of your story, the whole image, you can really see God's presence weaving through it and you can see His grace. He's brought you to this point now and mature godly woman who puts Him first. Looking back over your life, even at the points when perhaps you felt He wasn't even in the picture. Actually with eyes of hindsight looking back, can you see that He was present, that He was alongside you? 100% yeah, I mean even when that day, you know, with the boy he's going back to them, I remember a niggle and sometimes you know you're getting niggled about something you think I should not be going out this guy. And sometimes that is the Holy Spirit and it's a nudge, but I remember having a picture of, so we were flirting and there was this vivid picture of a red horrible, rainy hand coming out of his house, coming out of the woman's house that we used to hang out and coming out of another girl's house that was really manipulative around that time. And these hands, these kind of demonic hands were grabbing me around the waist and then I saw a hand coming from my parent's house that was white, it wasn't grabbing me, but it was offering itself to me. Now at the time I took that to mean that was kind of God's hand and it was representing safety, but I didn't really trust going, you know, thinking I'd be safe at home. So I didn't really, it's only lately that I've realized, I know that was Jesus offering himself. And you know, in that moment I decided to go the opposite way. I know that one, he loves me exactly the same as he did before I made that choice to follow him as he does now, that that hasn't changed throughout my obedience or my non-bittiness or my forgiveness, it doesn't change his love. As his daughter is as valid as it was, you know, when I was doing the worst things at 14, whatever. But I've seen his provision in so many ways, I can't even list it. If I went through all my diaries, I'd be able to account to all the things that he has miraculously provided, including as a single mummy mean after the divorce and just seeing him meet those needs. Yes. I guess as a single mum on a single income, you know, there's going to be a level of dependence on him that perhaps if I was married to a rich guy or whatever, I probably wouldn't need to depend in this way. So there is a level of it that, you know, that living closely and really needing him to step in and he does, he really does. And he has and I don't think he'll stop whatever my status, I think he's, you know, he's good and he's more provider. Yes, yes, most definitely. Wow, been amazing to have this conversation with UKT and I know that it's going to be a source of massive encouragement and inspiration to listeners. Let's wrap up then by praying. Let's pray for those who are listening, specifically those who perhaps have struggled with childhood situations that have left them feeling worthless. Let's pray for women who have experienced that heartbreak of divorce and indeed for men actually because it's not that men are immune to it. And you know, perhaps these individuals feel their vision of marriage has been tainted. Let's pray that God restores a vision of marriage that is beautiful and life giving and that he meets them in that place. Let's pray as you said for single parents that they really know God's provision. And yeah, just again and again, what has come through this conversation with you has been, you know, that sense of saying the most important relationship in our lives that we can ever cultivate, that we can ever depend upon and enjoy is our relationship with God as our father, the Holy Spirit dwelling within us as the evidence of that relationship but Jesus, you know, so let's pray that we really all just leap into greater depths in that relationship. And maybe for those listening who don't know God, maybe there are some out there who don't know Him, that actually they would be really challenged by what you've said and ask those key questions of do I need to know this savior for myself as well? So do you want to pray Katie and I'll join you in them? We'll finish. Yeah, of course, yeah. Jesus, Holy Spirit, I just want to thank you so much for all you've done and all that we've talked about today. And I want to lift those listening right now that don't know you. Would you come and reveal who you are and be close and your presence just come down in those rooms, wherever these people are, Lord, that they would just know your tangible presence. And Lord, I want to pray for people that have struggled with, maybe not feeling accepted or loved by their earthly dad. I want to pray for your restoration to take place and that healing of the broken hearted. You bind up the broken hearted, you bring your healing and you are so close and I want to pray for those who are facing divorce or maybe even suspecting in a fair right now or whatever's going on in each person's hearts in their marriages and in their lives. Lord, I want to pray for restoration over that vision of marriage. Lord, I want to pray that you would radically re-align our hearts and our minds to what your vision and what you see marriage looking like and how it can be godly and honouring and safe and loving and kind Lord. And yeah, I just want to pray for those that maybe there has been an affair in the past as well, but the marriage has continued and maybe they still feel a little bit insecure in that area despite coming through lots of things. I want to pray for that you would bring your protection and your governing and your healing and that actually they would be so strong in it that they would be able to help others going through it, that it would be something they would really overcome because of your grace in Jesus name. Amen, Father, I echo all that Katie has said. Thank you for her boldness, thank you for her willingness, thank you for her honesty. Father, you have spoken to us today and I pray that what you've said would just remain deep in our hearts and I pray that above all each of us would run into deeper depths of knowing you, that we would make cultivating our relationship with you as the most important in our lives. Father, thank you for your grace that meets us in every set of circumstances and your ability to bring beauty out of the most painful places, beauty out of the ashes, treasure in unexpected places. We commit this to you now in Jesus name. Amen. Thank you so much for listening in to Carry Shales today with me, your host Catherine Grimes and our beautiful guest and a big thank you to all the women who make Carry Shales podcast possible for your generous support. You know who you are and we are eternally grateful. A big thank you goes out to David Campion of Open Sky Media for editing and producing this episode and this is where you come in. If you have enjoyed listening to this episode, please help us by growing the Carry Shales community of women of faith. You can leave a review or a rating, pass the stories on and look for the stories in your own life as well. Thank you and look forward to talking with you next time.