YES or NO: Dallas Jenkins

The Rapture. I'm a cat. We don't, I didn't know it, I never even heard of the Rapture. There are these lines in Scripture that at least present an image of like the like being taken out this is a figure it is. That's certainly very Catholic perspective when it happens and I'm gone and you're still here. It would be nearly impossible to make a show about Jesus without criticism. I've seen a couple theological quibbles from Catholics about the show. Where is most of the criticism? Welcome to Yes or No the Biblious Battle to discover who knows whom better. My guest today is Dallas Jenkins creator and director of the chosen. Here is how it works. I will ask Dallas a yes or no question. He will lock in his answer away from my prying eyes. Then I will try to guess what he chose. If I guess correctly, I get a point. If I guess incorrectly, I lose a point. No matter what, I will end up drinking. Then it's Dallas's turn. Neither of us has seen the questions beforehand. Whoever has the most points at the end wins. The stakes could be higher. Dallas, thank you for coming on the show. I'm so grateful to be here. I'm a little nervous, but I think I'm feeling good. I'm feeling confident. You've made it through now seven seasons of the phenomenon show about God. You might be able to handle this. I also love, has there ever been a more perfect picture of the Catholic and the evangelical? We've got the martini, we've got the glass of milk. This is beautiful. This is what I was raised to love and this is what I was raised to resist. So I have to do what my parents want. I know. For me, it was the opposite, which is why my bones are so brutal and sung this. In another life, I'm going to go first because I'm a man. If you were a lady, I'd say ladies first, but you're a man. Yes. Matt Walsh called the Odyssey. Well, this is my show. I have a great guest, Dallas Jenkins, the creator of one of the biggest shows in the world. And we're opening on Stupid Matt Walsh with the honor of another show and another movie. Yeah, this is bad-producing. Do you have any producers at the show that I could borrow from my show? No, no, too busy. Matt Walsh called the Odyssey a three hour long middle finger to its source material, to white people and to movie making in general. He's always very subtle in that one. Ben Shapiro called it a masterpiece. Do you agree more with Matt Walsh than with Ben Shapiro? Oh, this is. So I. This is violating the code of directors where we're not supposed to say certain things, but. Well, you're just opining on. Oh, no, I guess you are opining this one. Yes, yeah, you're right. Okay, so you're going right after Christopher Nolan. You're going to say no. Really? I thought you were going to be nice to Christopher Nolan. Yeah, you think it was trash? Well, again, Matt Walsh isn't always the most nuanced communicator. I didn't agree with everything that he said, but I do lean more towards that. I was not as big of a fan of the movies. I had this opinion that seems like the one opinion you're not allowed to have, which is. I thought it was fine. Yeah, I mean, that's. I thought it was pretty good, I guess. Yeah, I enjoyed it. I really did. And Christopher Nolan is brilliant, but some of the shifts and what the meaning of the story was kind of annoyed me. Yeah, there were these interesting takes, and it was in the Virgillian, and Dante, and Tradition, and whatever. But also, Sinon has to be a guy. If you're going to insert that character, it has to be a guy. The Cyclops should do the bit, you know, the whole thing. And even just how he was going to be basically emo through all of these extraordinary battles, and he's just like, "I don't think I should be doing this." And I was like, "Eh, no." That's not really in the source text, right? I know a little bit about taking iconic source text and trying to bring it to the world. And there are certain things you try to avoid doing, and I don't think he did. Is this a spoiler that season seven of the show's who does not have Ellen Page in it? Are we breaking news? Please, Michael. Are we. Hold on, all right. Please don't break me. I don't want to break. Okay, you're up. Yeah. Are most political podcasters playing a character rather than authentically giving their opinions? And it did not specify at the Daily Wire. Yes, that was implied by my mischief producer. I'm going to, I'm going to go with yes. You got that wrong. You have to drink your milk. Now, I'll preface this. Because we're asking about what it is to be a podcaster. Do I drink it now? Or you can drink it now, yes. We've got to kind of understand what that is to be a podcaster. To be or not to be. That is the question. Whether it is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against the sea of troubles by opposing and. To die? Oh, sorry. Yes, so are the podcasters just actors? No. A lot of that. Look, there's a lot of overlap between politics and show business. Always has been Ronald Reagan, Sunny Bono, Arnold Schwarzenegger. It's a lot overlap. A sitting U.S. Senator once told me that all senators are frustrated actors. They fail to act actors. However, no. I don't think that the podcasters and the influencers I don't think that they're playing a role to hide their true opinions. I think it's worse. I think I'm not going to name any names. I think a lot of them don't really have opinions. So, yes, they're following the audience sometimes. This is all the worst aspects of podcasting and influencers. They're following the audience. They're captured by the audience. They say the last thing they heard in their ear from some other guy. But I think they really believe it. I think they would pass a lie detector test. I think to create a character is actually more complex and too difficult for many of the podcasters. No, that's very true. And I think I didn't focus enough on the second part of the question. Authentically, they're giving their opinions. I think their opinions are for the most part authentic. And of course, there's exceptions to all of this. But I think I was thinking more about the persona. The attitude, the aggression at times or the kindness that I think that sometimes I thought maybe you might think that only at the daily wire are people truly authentic. Only are we really authentic. But I'm not even that big on authenticity. Look, I think sincerely myself, I say what I believe. I want that clip taken. Yeah, but I'm not big on authenticity. I'm down on authenticity. I think this is one of the great errors of our time is we're told that the most important thing to be is authentic. But I don't think that's true. I think the most authentic thing to be is good. In other words, yeah. I don't want to, I have all these bad habits. And I have all these sins and inclinations to sin. And I'm just to get no false modesty, true humility, or we're all broken people. So I don't want to be authentically myself and be wrathful, lustful, prideful, vicious. I want to be good. And that'll seem kind of fake like the first few times I try it. But if you keep working at it eventually, it's going to get into your bones. So that's certainly a very Catholic perspective. The evangelical perspective is that we are authentically evil and we need to embrace it about ourselves. We love our Savior even more. But with you on it, yes. But even then, we are to be seeking righteousness and pursuing sanctification. And that does often mean putting aside our instincts. And sometimes the cliche is fake until you make it. Now there's actually a lot to that. There's a lot to that in the health and wellness space of like, sometimes if your body is hurt and you will act as though it's not hurting you and it will start to follow. And so I do believe in that as well. Totally, totally. And the podcasters need to get that lesson. Yeah, all right. Well, we're off to a rough start. We're off to a rough start. OK, so you're getting hammered on lactose. And next question, we have to watch this video before answering. OK. Wow. I have my answer. OK, let's see. You're not going to hurt my feelings. No, well, I'm just answering for you. I'm trying to get into the rules. None time rocks. Not as though our friendship depends on this. I literally just spent an hour with Kurt Cameron half an hour ago. Depending on your answer to this question, you might never spend an hour with him again. Is Kurt Cameron the best buck Williams of the Left Behind movies? And what is-- We're asking that because my father, Jerry Jenkins, wrote the Left Behind books and the movies were based on them. So yeah, I'm going to be authentic and answer it truthfully. No, OK, now are you trying to throw me off instead? I have a poker player, so sometimes you try to deceive people and sometimes you tell the truth. So it's all a game. Yes, he is, he is, huh? Wow. What about those poor other guys? They're lovely, too. I'm going to be very authentic and say, I'm not a huge fan of the Left Behind movies, even though they're based on my dad's books. Yeah, yeah. But they were all lovely. Kurt, I think, he really got into it and really embraced it. And so he did a lot of-- What don't you like about the movies? Is it a technical thing or is it a theological thing? Oh, not a theological thing as much. I love many of the people who were part of making them and all that, they're not great movies. You're like the most refreshingly honest filmmaker I've ever heard. Everyone's got-- oh, no, it's really good. God is not dead. 52 is like the greatest movie ever made. And I've made some movies that aren't great either. So I'm willing to say that. But the faith-based movie space has a tortured past. It's getting slowly but surely better. But I'm not-- I don't think-- And it's kind of sad because my dad is a huge movie buff and raised me to love movies and all of that. And when the Left Behind books blew up and the movie ideas started to come, we were kind of hoping for like a big. thing that really lived up to the size and scope of the story of the end of the world. And one of the things that I think suffers in the faith-based filmmaking world sometimes is that we sometimes drink wine on a beer salary, which is means that sometimes it's like, this story should only be told on screen if you've got the resources to do it. But then you go, "Well, the message is what's most important." So even though we don't have the resources, let's just do it anyway. And it ends up looking like a poor man's version of a decent movie. And I think sometimes, and I think we tried to do this in the chosen and season one, we didn't have a fraction of the resources that we had now. So the story was a little smaller. We made it more intimate. We shrunk the world a little bit. So it didn't look like we were trying to look cool and big, but we didn't have the resources to, so now it exposes our lack of resources, our lack of skill. And I think that that's happened in the left behind movie. Yeah, that's a great point. Just being realistic. You always hear this, whether it's in the Christian space or in the conservative space, up into so many of these dinners and meetings and conferences where you say, "Hey, you know what we're going to do, we're going to film Jonah and the Whale, you know, we're going to film the apocalypse of St. John, we're going to film the whole thing, we're going to just give us your money. If you don't worry, we'll do it on a $7 budget." Yes. And the message is all that matters. The message is all that matters. That comes through. And so I think that's a mistake that's been made. And to be fair, the producer of the left behind movie is a friend of my name Paul LaLonde has said, "I've been wanting to make a great left behind movie and I haven't quite gotten there yet." So, to be fair, he understands that in an agrees that he hasn't quite done what he had set out to do, but I do appreciate the intense genuinely and there's been some good stuff in them. That's great. If they do it again, I want to throw my hand in a ring to play the part because I want to beat Kirk for the best protagonist. We'll wait until it gets funded. Yes. You're up. Watch video before reading. So I think we have a video. Okay. I don't know what you're saying, Stacey. So I think Stacey is referring to the obvious fact that Alex is a— What? Well, I mean, as brave and beautiful as he is. She. She is brave and beautiful. Of course. But she does have certain advantages over a real woman, right? Well, Stacey, Drake, all I can say to that is, how dare you trans women are real women. Unfortunately, Michael could pass as a first-century Middle Eastern Shepherd boy, but does he have the acting range to have played a character in the chosen? First-century Middle Eastern Shepherd boy. So physically, you could pass as one. You have darker features and— It's a Shepherd boy. Yeah. But does he have the acting range to have played a character in the chosen? So he's saying I'd look like an underfed child, but I also might be a bad actor too. That's the implication. That's the question. Yeah. It's an objective question. Yeah. I think the answer is what we'll say, which— Which thinks it. Yeah. Now, if I— So, you have to guess how I would answer, but depending on how I answer, I'm affirming the premise that I look like an emaciated, lavantine child. I'm just reading the questions, my friend, I didn't write them. Yeah. Yeah, I don't want to be caught up in a— But if I answer no, then I'm saying that I'm insufficiently trained as an actor. Well, because you've already claimed that podcast hosts are authentic, I'm going to say you said no. I said yes. Now, did you say yes because there's so many ways to read this. You could be saying, Michael, you don't look like a Middle Eastern Shepherd boy because you're too fat, but you're still a fine actor, but you're too fat. Or are you saying no, Michael, you're a bad actor, but you do look like a thin child from the first century palace. I'm saying I thought that we were going to be speaking truth to each other. Yeah. I was assuming you would have a greater level of self-awareness. Yeah. That's on me. You're saying I'm— I miss the boat. A fat, a fat and a round bad actor. I agree. That's what you're— I agree with the premise. You could pass as a first century Middle Eastern Shepherd boy. I don't know exactly how old you are, but you look like you could be about 17. Yeah. And there's not exactly a hefty to your physical appearance. Yeah. So I'm just saying— Well. The acting range to have played a character in the chose, and I'm not saying I didn't like your performance in that clip, but I'm just saying— It wasn't the full—do I need to go back to— Oh, for a muse of fire that would descend to the brightest heaven of invention. I think, for the next left behind movie, you'd be perfect. All right. All right. So I have to— I just ripped that out. Okay. So you drink—I'm going to drink after that, too, I think. You were right. Oh, because you get to drink because you were— I was wrong. Because I was wrong. Your answer, yes. Okay. So you're getting a little bit more drunk. I'm getting a little bit more bloated. We're on a good path there. Your bones are very hand-stuffed. Yeah, exactly. Okay. You consulted religious figures from various denominations while creating the chosen. Has most of the criticism you've received come from the Eastern Orthodox Christians? Well, is that—I think it just says, in this question, it says, "Orthodox." Capital O. I know this. Okay. We'll ask for a clarification from— Yes. Are we talking lower case O or capital O? Capital O. It is capital O. Oh. So referring to the Eastern Church. Okay. Has most of the criticism you've received come from capital O, orthodox Christians? That's a good—that's a good clarifier. That's a weird one. I haven't followed the criticism all that closely. And I know you're not used to getting criticisms. I've never—no, never, not me. Most Christians, you would say no way. That's correct. Yeah, no. It's not from the Eastern—they don't even agree with each other on anything. I know what would they— I don't even know if they have televisions. Yeah, of course they're not. No. They can't see it past all the beards and the hair. Where is most of the criticism coming from? Evangelical Christians. Really? American evangelicals. Without a close second. Why? Well, I think Protestants tend to be—everyone's strength is their weakness. We're very, very passionate about the word. We're very, very passionate about the Bible. Solo script to our—all of those things. And I think some of the visual representations of the story that other faith traditions, like the Catholic Church in particular, have been comfortable with. We see as potential idolatry, and so there's always a hesitation in this kind of thing. So now you combine that with the fact that the majority of the show, the content, isn't directly from Scripture. It's inspired by Scripture. It's based on Scripture, but gosh, anytime Jesus says, "Hey, how's it going?" That's not in Scripture. And so the people who are uncomfortable with anything that's not from Scripture, they've been very critical of. Critical of my association with LDS folks that there's multiple Mormons who work on the show. Yes. I read something about that. Yeah. And so anytime we do anything that doesn't quite fit into the box, I think Evangelical Christians have a tendency—tendency, not always—to be a little bit ferocetical, ferraceical, yes, Mariah. Much of this, if you had. Yeah. But we've gotten it from all corners. I mean, there's Catholics who aren't comfortable with me being a Protestant and telling a story in that way. Well, yeah. For Catholics, we're never comfortable with anybody being Protestant, but that just goes with that. So that's not a particular knock on the series, because, you know, I've been to a number of Catholic events with Jonathan Rubin as a matter of fact, and Catholics seem to love the series. I do. And largely because I think that one of the—you've got strength as your weakness—one of the weaknesses sometimes—of the Catholic emphasis on reverence and statues and stained-glass windows and these buildings. Generation. Yeah. It sometimes creates a bit of a distance. There's sometimes the reverence becomes emotional distance. It becomes formality. Yeah, yeah. And so I think that some Catholics who have seen the show and it's told me, combined with our practice, this has made this—our relationship with Jesus even more personal. And to see Jesus meet Mary Magdalene in a bar to see Simon Peter, some of these heroes of our faith, these people we've venerated as saints, also living—sometimes in the same way we do, making the same mistakes we do—is a really beautiful thing. And so that's where I think one of the reasons why this show has had the successes had. There's this kind of Protestant Catholic almost tension that has really helped the show. Jonathan, who's a very strong Catholic, claimed Jesus, he's going to bring a little bit more of a formality to it and I'm a little bit more like, I want to see you screwing around with the guys. We found this kind of middle ground that I think has played really well. Yeah, because I've seen, you know, everyone has a criticism, but I've seen a couple theological quibbles from Catholics about the show, but not a lot in that significance. And that's interesting. I hadn't considered it that within evangelical traditions, there is a kind of iconoclasm, so the very act of depicting Christ in the story that itself is kind of controversial. Yeah, there's been people who've even said this violates the second command about worshipping an idol or worshipping a representation of God. And we're always like, Jonathan is not Jesus. We're not worshipping Jonathan. No one is worshipping Jonathan. I'm not God. The show is not the Bible. Jonathan is not Jesus. We know that. We hope you realize that as well. But yeah, I would say still though, the majority of Christians of all faith traditions have been immeasurably supportive of the show and grateful for it. So I'm not the type who gets caught up in the minority who are critical. I went into this show knowing what was coming. I've been raised well by my parents. I was confident. I was doing. I care about what God thinks, what my wife thinks, after that, as I'm sure you agree, social media comments aren't going to solve 2,000 years of theological debate, and certainly aren't going to change my mind about what I've been prepared to do. No, and the more the more that people yell at you in the replies the more Elon bucks you get. So it's really pretty lucrative. Yes, really, too. Okay. You're up. And I need to clear my answer. So that's my turn. Yes. This question feels like it's from from you to me. Are we sure we're doing this right? No. I'm never sure of it. But Davey says we are doing it right. All right, because you're supposed to answer. Okay. Given the history of production difficulties on Christian film sets, the some might cost spiritual attacks like Jim Kovizel being struck by lightning while filming the crucifixion scene. Did the chosen team or did the chosen production team take any spiritual precautions while filming? So that's being asked of me. I'm supposed to answer. You're guessing my answer. Yes. That's the thing. No, I thought I loved to fact check my producers who get most of their information from like reddit and the magic eight bulls. I don't think Jim was struck by lightning during the crucifixion scene. I thought it was a difference in who was struck by lightning. I thought that he was during the crucifixion. I might be wrong, but I won't admit that. You could be wrong. I don't think that's the point of the question. You're right. Oh, and I are both wibbling. We're being a little assburgers. We are. So yeah. So Jim Kovizel. Specialityism. Yeah, exactly. It's all it's touched us for sure. Jim Kovizel being struck by lightning at any point. I don't I think. Okay. Okay. That did the chosen production team take any spiritual precautions while some. Okay. And you've got your answer like that. Um, I hope so. I hope you did. Yeah, I would assume you did. Yes. Yes. And what did you do? Just things just prayer. I mean, just, you know, we have we've had people. I had a guy reach out to me early on who just said, God be the name of Mark who said, God has put it in my heart. I'm a prayer warrior to pray for you and to pray for the show. And just every day he would send certain insights. And I was like, this guy is clearly communicating with the Lord about this and is felt led by this. And so I invited him to set and you just walked around the set and prayed over it. We don't do some of the more formal things that some other faith traditions do, but just a lot of prayer. There's literally, and literally hundreds of thousands of people who are in a kind of a prayer group that's global that was organized by come and see the nonprofit that helps finance the show. And they organize this prayer team that's made up of hundreds of thousands of people who take our prayer requests, you know, weekly. And so that's the kind of thing we did. We didn't we didn't pour oil on anything or do anything at that, but sacrifice any chickens or you don't want to do that. Just lambs. Yeah, good, good. Yeah, I find sometimes if I'm going to go do an event or a speech or start a project or whatever it is, get on an airplane. Yeah. And I think, well, hold on. This is my soul in a good state right now. Am I hold on? Have I done I miss my prayers yesterday? Did I? And it's easy to kind of brush it off, but if you think it's all real, like if God exists, and sin and the devil exists, and like Christ died for our sins and then was resurrected bodily and like seated at the right hand of the Father, and like if all of that is real, then we need to be a lot less flippant about things like spiritual protection. I was I was reading St. John Henry Newman, a great guy who was at different points in his life, both Protestant and Catholic. I was reading John Henry Newman on particular providence. He said, do you, you say that God, God is everywhere and God, you know, sovereign over history and God sees everything and goes over here of your head and on the sparrows, but yeah, you say that. So you know, he's like right there right now. He is particularly interested in you. He is watching you. He is caring for you. And you just sin. And you'll still just sin. God is like right here, right this very second, looking at me lovingly, having made the ultimate sacrifice for me. And I'm just going to go sin. And you read that and you think, man, I'm a big dumb idiot. Right? No, it's crazy. And the premise of my show actually is that the creator of the universe dwelt among us physically, not just not just spiritually. Now he exists among us in the form of Holy Spirit. And one of the things that I've talked about as what I hope the show does, it's not that the show brings God closer or brings us closer to God. It removes the things that we've put up, the veils that we sometimes put up between us and God sometimes to justify our own sin. Yeah. I mean, how many times have we been alone? And like you said, God is with us, but we go, not right now. Subconsciously, maybe. But like you said, how can we do some of the things we do if we really truly believe that he was among us? Yeah. And that, but what we do is in our humanity, we can create many things that get in between us and God. And sometimes it's religion even. Sometimes it's the, sometimes we put things up in our lives that we idolize. Make idols out of things. Yeah, we might idolize out of things. Or we are so focused on our religion. And not the person that our religion is seeking to connect us to, that we can, and I think that's true in life. And so I hope that our lives can be an exhibit, an exhibit of the belief that, no, this is real. I really do believe this. And I do believe that there are forces at work that are, that are competing. We know who's going to win and we know who's going to win whenever we, whatever they choose. But we do need to live in that reality. It's not, it's an eternal, the term we use is we need to live on the eternal perspective and not on the temporal. Absolutely. With our eyes toward everlasting life. It's time for the rapid fire around three questions, 30 seconds. No time to outthink each other. The score right now, whoa, am I winning? Really? Right? Okay. The score right now is one for me. You have negative one. I don't know how you can get negative behind you. Are you ready for the rapid fire? Yeah. Okay. I go first. Okay. Okay. Do men who put lotion on their lips have something to hide? You put? No. That's correct. I don't do chapstick because it's actually bad for your lips. Long term. I have chapstick on right now. It's bad for your lips. Long term it is. So I just do face lotion and it covers the lips. I'm not hiding it. You're not. I don't want to hide this light under a bushel. I need to, I need to give the world what they want. You know what I'm hiding? My dry chaff lips because all I drink all day is booze and coffee. Well mine are never dry because I just use lotion. Okay. No. No. You leave that. I still got more. I know I'm supposed to do rapid fire, but now I'm talking about your lotion. Okay. Okay. We'll clear that. Are healthy people who obsess over cold plunge is basically the same as hippies who swear a new colored crystal is the key to wellness. I know my answer, but I don't know. I got to hold on because you're all fit. You're all fit in like muscular ends and you're like hip to the jive. I didn't say no. I'm a little impressed with your with your team for some of the research they've done. Yes. I'm a cold plunger daily and also not a hippie. Yeah. But there it is a fine line for sure. Is it good for you? Because I don't I have all my buddies, all my big giga chat buddies. They do the cold plunge thing whatever. But I that seems bad for you. No. If for no other reason than it teaches your body how to handle challenging situations, it teaches you how to handle manage stress and all the other stuff that I'm not sure how scientific, but it has really been a huge life saver for me like over there. And every morning I do it and it it's better than caffeine. So it's good for managing stress. That and also just good for just waking like in the morning. It's better than coffee. You can literally that's been measured as what it does to your dopamine and all that stuff. Because you know what I find for managing stress and for waking up in the morning is good. Boots. It's great. It's crazy. You don't you you feel good all of a sudden. Yeah. Along with nicotine is very good for that. I don't cook caffeine. Of course, I almost has no effect on me at this point. And so I've always considered those to be health foods. You're saying otherwise. This is why I'm a Protestant. I'm just telling you you are outing yourself. Boos and cigarettes to start your morning as our Lord would say. So yeah, I'm with you. No, I'm not with you. No, no, that's fair. I did. I actually not to make fun of any drunks in the audience. But I remember I was walking around New York and you were very heavy drinking time. I walked past a bar and the outside the bar, there was a sign that said half off eight AM eye openers. I said eight AM eye openers. What kind of degenerate do you have to be? That's I think you got a problem if you're doing the eye opener drink. Okay. Next question. Do you now regret not? Now I see the whole reason that you were brought here specifically for this game. Do you now regret not casting Ben Davies as Quintus, which led him shortly after to apply to be a producer for someone named Michael Knowles? I have you to blame. Yeah. Ben Davies did audition for the role of Quintus. One of the known as one of the great antagonists in the biblical media space and Ben did audition and actually did a very good audition. So the question would be do I regret it and now that he's he's working with you. So I'll let's see. Can we do a question of whether or not I regret you're not casting him because that led him to be my producer? Okay. It was correct. You do not regret not casting him. Ben's a lovely, a lovely actor and did a lovely job. But Brandon Potter who plays Quintus has done a phenomenal job and I'm very proud of it. And the show Michael Knowles show who my wife and I are fans of is clearly being produced well and I'm learning why it needs such good production. I was going to say I was with you right until the end there. So would you say one of the reasons he didn't get the part is that he didn't look convincing me enough like a Middle Eastern shepherd boy? Well, Quintus. I don't, I mean, I know Quintus. Quintus is a Roman leader. Yeah. Yeah. Quintus is a Roman preter of Galilee who is very much against what the Jews are doing. So Ben looked the part, he's got the good look, he's got the good, he's clearly doing cold plunges and he's doing a lot of cold stuff. But no, he's, wasn't Quintus, I think he's where exactly where he needs to be. - Yes, yeah, that's fair. He looks too angloat. - How do you feel? - How do I feel? I'm never gonna forgive you for not giving in that part. Think about right now. Think about my show could be, I could be living on Mars. You know, it's like that meme of the world if, and it's like flying cars and everything like that. So the world if Dallas Jenkins casts Davies as Quintus, I'd be a network TV, I'd be, my ratings would be 10 billion, I'd be, I'd be the next vice president. - Far less controversial. - Religated into this little cocoon. - Yeah, what is this? I can barely get, you know, I was gonna-- - No, we need to do, we need to drink too much. - Cheers, I was gonna say, I can barely get a new, a good Martini, but it's actually, it's a very good Martini. - Good, and this milk is lovely. - Okay, you're up. - Right. - Rapid fire, I'm glad. - Right, I'm glad, I'm glad-- - Glad Ben's producing is really paying off 'cause we're really, you know-- - Oh, you have to clear your answer too. Says Ben Davies, you can hear just the deep resentment in his voice, every time he gets in my ear, okay. - Will AI replace independent movies within the next 10 years? - My answer. - I'm gonna, what would you have said? I'm gonna go with yes. - Wrong. - No way, no way, do you think they will? - The reason that I do, again, this is a very broad question. Not totally, of course, but one of the benefits of AI can also be a negative, but one of the benefits of it is it does democratize a little bit of the ability to do, like lower budget projects, people who don't have all the resources of Hollywood, have always been unable to do things that are a little bit bigger, have more scope and production value. The time it takes to make movies is oftentimes financially improbable, I'm not saying that right. But my point is, like even working with animals, working with babies, some of these things that I can't wait to, when AI gets better at that. Like, I'll never work with an animal or a baby again. But for independent productions, it's not generative AI, like not the type where I hope that people aren't just-- - So make me a movie, okay. - Maybe I'm this red. - I'm talking about like-- - Yeah, I mean-- - They'll integrate it into everything. They'll integrate it into everything. But I think even, like I would never use AI to write. I just, that's a line that I would-- - I'm the son of an author who's written over 200 books. Yeah, I never will either. - To write is to think, but, you know what, I'll use it to research all day long. And you gotta, you still have to check it a lot and everything, but it's very good at that. So, do you think, take it to the extreme, is there, we're all worried that AI is gonna put us out of work, is there ever a world in which AI just supplants filmmaker? - No. - No, not a chance, right? - It will reduce the number of, like we're saying, independent movies that are made by a filmmaker relying solely on their own resources. - Yeah. - That will be eventually very, very rare. - Okay. - It will become a tool to get better movies made on limited budget. - I was talking to another filmmaker, also named Dallas. And I said, what's the effect? - Yeah, you say, you know, like, sometimes walks around these parts, the Alessone, yeah. And I said, what's the, what's the effect of AI? And this was six, eight months ago. What's the effect of AI on filmmaking? He said, right now, it basically take away zero. The effect of AI, if you implement it properly in making a movie, says it reduces the budget by an order of magnitude. - Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That checks out. - When used properly, it is extraordinarily helpful. Is it okay to cast Meryl Streep as Aslan in the new narrative? - What do I say? 'Cause you've surprised me in your analysis of movies before, so I'm, is it okay? - I won't look. Try to guess. - Okay, this is so hard. This actually cuts at my soul. When I'm not, I'm only being slightly hyperbolic. I might view on filmmaking. - Yeah, I don't think we're asking from a libertarian perspective, should it be allowed? Obviously it's Greta Gerwig, who you've praised. - Who I praise, yeah, I praise. That's the problem, is it? - So you were very, very positive about Barbie and Ben. So we're not asking, I don't think we're asking, is it, should it be allowed? Is it a good decision based on the source material? - Okay, I've got my answer. - I would say no. - Yeah, the answer is no. And look, I hate, I will counter-signal Greta Gerwig, if I have to, if the movie's bad. But I don't want to preemptively counter-signal her. To me, she is like Trump. She has this quality where it sounds like everything she's doing is horrible. And the walls are closing and it's gonna be up. And then you watch it and you say, wait, Lady Bird is about a girl who concludes she should stop sleeping around, call her mom, and go to church. I'm in. - Barbie, Barbie, this feminist movie where, hold on, the conclusion is feminism makes men and women both worse, you need to talk to God and then instead of getting a job, Lady, you should go have a child. Sign me, where do I sign up? This one is a little bit of a bridge too far. I think because God, yes, God in a certain sense, transcends the sexual difference, yes. Also, God has pronouns that we should respect. Also, God is incarnate as a man, it takes on human nature and the attributes of human nature actually matter in our understanding of the film, right? - And I also sometimes think why unnecessarily distract your, an audience that would be excited and passionate about this project, why even before you start kind of put things on to the wrong foot. - Now, is it the thing that-- - Now, Meryl Streep is the greatest-- - Yeah, she's a male actor in the history of Hollywood bar none. I am a huge Meryl Streep fan, it's not a criticism of her. We're of Greta Gerruga, who's a masterful filmmaker. - Yes, I would have done it differently. - Yeah, I can't, is she doing the thing Christopher Nolan did? Some people thought what Nolan did with Casting Ellen Page as Sinon was just to get a lot of free press. And if that's what he was doing, it was very effective. Is that what's going on here? Is it, yes, Meryl Streep, is it an extremely talented actress and very skilled or my kind of religious read on it is? Greta Gerruga was educated by Jesuits. And the Jesuits, there are two great questions in the Catholic Church. How much money do the Franciscans have and what are the Jesuits actually believe? We don't, you know, they're confounding order. And so the Jesuits are amazing because they get results. Jesuit education gets all these lives, all these non-Christians always, and it just kind of infects their minds and they become more Christian. And it's like, it's very impressive. But the Jesuits are also kind of live. And so they don't, so then you're like, okay, Greta Gerruga is like a unitarian or something. She was raised to unitarian. And you say, okay, she's got all these great Christian images, kind of conservative images in her film. But then you get, she makes God a check, you know, and you're just like, I've never been more happy to be a Protestant than in the last 10, 20 seconds. Hearing all of that analysis, I'm like, I-- That always, I'm right up to confess my anti-Evangelical-- Yeah, exactly. Active action. All right. Michael, do you refuse to work out and let your body waste away into putty because you think the rapture will happen before you see any gains? Yeah, that's so great. It's like almost every show. He somehow says, this one was now too about how my body is not attractive to Ben Davis. So whatever predilection he has in his mind, he has to include that, he called me putty. He doesn't want your body to be waste away. And I'm assuming this is because he cares for you and loves you. Yeah. But it doesn't read that way. But it does say, do you refuse to work out and let your body waste away into putty because you think the rapture will happen before you see any gains? And waiting for the rapture, yeah. Right. I got to think-- I got to get rid of what I would say and think about what you would say. Yeah. No. You say no. You're totally right. You didn't even push the button in your setting. I think you'd refuse to work out and let your body waste away into putty just because you don't want to work out. Not because of the rapture. I think that's such an unfair question. And it's insulting to be honest with you. Can I give-- OK, the bad reason-- Do I get the milk because I was right? You do. You do. Yes. And I'm going to keep drinking every time you insults my adonic body. The bad reason that I don't work out is I don't make time for it. I'm disorganized. And I'm kind of lazy. That's what I-- that's what I-- But now the good reason I don't work out is one. I don't have any time. I've got a bunch of kids. I overcommit. I'm late on everything. So I don't have any time to do it. I, on the other hand, have unlimited work out. You're just hanging around all day on the yacht. Yeah, that's why I work out. And the other reason is, this is what I tell myself. I say, why don't I want to make an idol? I don't want to make an idol out of my physical appearance. Now, isn't that good? Isn't that saintly of me? I don't want others to make an idol of my physical appearance either. So maybe I need to stop and just let my body race into putty. I learned something on coming on this show. Thank you for leading me to the truth. All right. The rapid fire is done. OK. I think-- oh, no, wait. We missed the second part of that question, though. The rapture. I'm a Catholic. I didn't know what-- I never even heard of the rapture until I was seven or eight years old. And I don't know, like a Protestant friend or something mentioned it. Protestants all disagree on the rapture. Some believe the rapture's happening. Some don't believe it. There are these lines in scripture that it will be a little more. At least present an image of like the elect being taken up. This is the sort of Catholic traditional reading as this is figurative and but there is a literal reading of this. For me, what's the 20, what's the 22nd pitch of the rapture? So here, well, let me just say this. As the son of the guy who wrote the definitive literature on the rapture selling 70 million copies talking about it, both he and I will tell you, we don't know. And it's actually not nearly as important as what you do before it comes if it comes at all. Yeah. So can we, can we? Cheers. Yeah. No, that, because this is the point, I think it's, I think it, it comes from a literal reading of scripture, which I think is a good way to read scripture, but I think there's also poetry and scripture and all that. But I think that. A logical all these things. Yeah, but the Protestant approach towards when and out air on the literal, I think is a good approach. But I haven't thought about the rapture in a very long time because I'm focused on, you know. Yeah, this is where we're at right now. No, because I love that. It's just a reading about the sort of four senses of scripture, give the literal, the moral, the figurative, the anagogical, and there are some where the Catholics have very literal readings. John 6, you know, the Eucharist, obviously, is like, we lean on the literal, there's also figurative in that and moral in all the rest. But, but others, we say like, Joe, but you don't read it all that literally or, okay. So I get all of that. And then I have these Protestant friends and they feel very passionately about the rapture. One way or the other. And then I think in my ignorance of a lot of these debates, I say, well, I don't, I don't know, man. I don't know the day or the hour. I don't, it doesn't totally, it's going to happen or whatever it's not like, I'm not really in control. So really all I can focus on is my, the state of my soul, when, whenever the thing that happens happens. Right. Theology matters. Doctrine matters. These things do matter. Sometimes a certain theology or doctrine can become a priori over direct and personal and intimate relationship with Jesus. And so when it comes to the rapture, look, I've, I've loved the benefits of the rapture discussion because my father wrote a lot of books about it and did very well with it. I got, got me through college for sure. I'm very happy about that. But I, he would be the first to say, he's like, this is our interpretation. He worked with this co-authored, you know, Tim Lahey and this was his, his doctrine, put two pages. It happened this way. This is what it would look like. But I'm not starting a church over whether or not it was in this way. Yeah, yeah. Okay. All right. That, that doesn't actually answer my question. Because I want like a vision, but you know what? I'm going to figure it out. I'm not the guy to pitch you why the rapture is happening or not. You know what? I'm going to figure it out when I do a better job than Kirk Cameron in the next version of the, yeah. Well, here's when you also figure it out. When it happens and I'm gone and you're still here. Yeah. It's like, Dallas, you're going to die. I've gone at the Protestants. For right. Yeah. But it was anagogical and then you're just, by my call, see you later. By the way, in the left behind books, the Pope is rapture. Really? Which Pope? I guess it's kind of a mixed bag in history, mostly good, but the books are fictional. So there was not the actual Pope, you're just saying whatever Pope was existing in that time period, yes. Wow. All right. So, huh. So we don't believe all Catholics are going to, I have, I have a lot of jokes that I could make that would be scandalous if I'm not going to, what I just said, don't do with it. But all Catholics are going to hell. Excluding me. I was being lighthearted, so I just want to make sure that. Oh, I thought you were going to say, Michael, when I said not all Catholics are going to hell, I want you. There is certainty when it comes to you. There is certainty that you are destined for perdition. It is time for the final round. The prompt will be read, will both lock in our answers, then move our glasses to yes or now to see if we can read each other's minds. This round is worth double points. It could change everything, could it? So the score is, is, I feel good. I don't always do well in this game, but I could lose two points and then I'm over. It's four to nothing, me. But it could four. I know. I don't know. I don't know how they're going to give it a score. They're doing a little bit of funny math back then. My goodness. But it could flip right now and then we could tie. Okay. So if I get for time to be nice. Is it possible that the chosen has converted more people to Catholic than Christian or Christian? I love my freaking Protestant producer. He won't count Catholics as Christians. So I think what you're referring to Ben is baptized Christians of the Protestant denominations. Is that what you mean? Okay. No, I think the question's right. Yeah, you got it right. Is it possible that the chosen has made more people Catholic than anything Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, whatever? Is it possible that the chosen has converted more people to Catholic, to Catholicism than to evangelical Protestantism? I think it's even bigger than I think it's evangelical, mainline Protestantism. Sure. It feels like Princess Bride. Don't answer you. You got to move money to how you think I answered. To how you think you answered. No, to how you think I answered. Because I know how I think I answered all the time. I'm wrong and he's right. No. Oh, shoot. This is crazy. You could tie. You don't think it's possible? I think it's possible. I mean, in a general sense, it's possible. I would say it's unlikely. Okay. Hold on. He says, in a general sense, it's possible. But I'm going to answer no. Well, it's highly unlikely, it's happened in both, I mean, I've heard from many, many Catholics who have been converted to Catholicism or a lot of times they've restored their Catholicism and left the church and this kind of brought them back to it. But the number of evangelical Protestant stories is overwhelming. I mean, it's just, so I just say it's, "Here was my art." Hold on. Hold on. I'm going to take your answer. Brazil, which is a largely Catholic country in the show, like exploded in Brazil. So now I'm rethinking my answer. Hold on. Hold on the judges. Hold on the judges. Is he going to change his answer? I mean, in a purist, I'm going to change my answer. He's changing it. Let's go. It's, of course, possible. Yes. And, see, that, what an upstanding moral man who gives the honest, so Brazil, so it exploded in Brazil. People, the Philippines, like there are several Catholic, like predominantly Catholic countries where this show has actually grown faster and per capita is bigger than it is in the states. And it's a lot of Catholic countries and I was thinking, I'm a typical ethnocentric viewpoint of like, I was thinking of America and, of course, anecdotal conversations that I've had. But I spend more time in the Protestant world than I do the Catholic world anyway. So. This happened to me early on in my show where I did some flip-in episode kind of making jokes about Germany. It was like, oh, Germany's the worst country in the world. It was like a joke show. And then, but because I just assumed that audience is all American. And then I got all these angry messages from all these Germans. They don't have the greatest sense of humor. That's to be fair. They've got a lot to kind of, that's still a little too soon, you know? So there's reason for them to be kind of just like, let's just give ourselves another few decades before we start. They're going to start more again. They're going to write into me again. That's amazing. But my thought on why you might get more Catholic converts, well, it's possible. I'm not saying it's even likely, but it's possible, is that there is this kind of Catholic moment happening right now in France, especially in the UK, in America also, where you'd say, maybe you get a guy who's just now he's reading his Bible for the first time. Maybe he's kind of tuning in for the first time. And part, I mean, look, the Holy Spirit converts, you know, the Holy Spirit, but the show would be the proximate cause, and you say, well, maybe at another time, maybe people culturally would have converted to Anglicanism because of it. Yeah, well, I would say the American Bible Society does an annual report of Bible reading and Bible sales, and it's been going down for decades and both with reading and sales. In the last few years, it has stabilized, or in some places, gone up a little bit. And in their first paragraph of their analysis, they mentioned the chosen as one of the key facts. Because we Protestants value the Bible more than you do, unlike if they come to the Bible, they're coming to our sense. So I'm just saying, before he changes it again, I'm going to keep that answer. Okay. You're up. Hollywood has been failing, but once produced excellent biblical films like Ben Hur, the 10 Commandments in Samson and Delilah, winning 14 Oscars between the films. Excluding a future Dallas Jenkins or Mel Gibson film, Will Hollywood ever make another great Christian film? Gosh, I'm excluded from this. Yeah, hold on. Are they excluded? Yeah. Are they viewing it? Because now, in a weird way, you are kind of Hollywood because just the show was so successful that Amazon, for instance, had to deal with you. Well, in some of our other projects that we're developing, we just did a project called Joseph Egypt that's coming out next year that was financed by Prime Video, and we made it. Yeah. And so that's Hollywood making a. Right. But they're excluding me. Excluding a future Dallas Jenkins or Mel Gibson film? Will Hollywood ever make another great Christian film not made by Dallas Jenkins or Mel Gibson? Remember the scene in Princess Bradley? So I'm thinking what your answer is. What if I told you right now? what if that were the set of tell you I put "I Begain" in your milk and you just collapse right in it's that would be amazing. And I unearthed all my previous trauma that I wasn't aware of on your show. Both, obviously, right? Of course. Why? Well, two reasons. One, I think there are sometimes great Christian films that Hollywood doesn't, well, weren't even necessarily where we're Christian, right? But also, I mean, there are still films being made. I mean, Lionsgate is a Hollywood studio and they have financed and made multiple films by some wonderful Christian filmmakers, including good friends of mine, and that will continue. And so, yeah, I think we're currently in an age where there's more opportunities now. Let's drink. Cheers to that. Cheers to future Hollywood Christian movies. Yeah. The other reason, I don't know, maybe I'm more basic about it. You're obviously much closer to the industry. It's all true. And so these are the stories that resonate with the human spirit and have for three thousand years. So, if you want to make great stories, they have to play on these themes. And if you want to make really, really great stories, a pretty sure bet is to make a Bible story. Well, and also like the Matrix, for example, is filled with some of the most eye-opening Christian imagery and themes. Now, the filmmakers were not setting out to make a Christian film, but they specifically said it. Yeah, we are borrowing from the Christian story because it's the greatest story I've ever told. Well, that, just because their intention wasn't necessarily to do a Christian film, doesn't mean the film isn't a Christian. Right. Doesn't have Judeo-Christian values. It's got to, so there's lots of movies like that that I think can be considered Christian. You think the Cohen brothers, to me, are like a really clear example of this. I mean, Hale Caesar is one of the most Christian films I've ever seen. It literally, the punchline to the movie is faith with the centurion at the crucifixion scene. The villain is a communist homosexual, and the protagonist is a guy who's opening scene is in a confessional, confessing. It's so blunt. And I think, well, that, if that's not a Christian movie, what is it? Well, Lady Bird is another example. Lady Bird is another great example. Yeah. So, and so, yeah, there's lots of examples. I think that sometimes we have a tendency to be so proud of our resistance to Hollywood. And I mean, I grew up in that environment, not necessarily my father, but like the environment I grew up in was a Hollywood is evil in trying to destroy the world. And that becomes this monolithic thing that we assign to everybody who's part of Hollywood. Yeah. Exactly. I think we don't want done to us. We don't want people lumping us all into one big group. And I think that that's a dangerous way to look at things. And I think, I mean, I've, I've met absolutely lovely, wonderful people in Hollywood who have been extremely supportive in every conceivable way for some of my projects that are explicitly about Jesus. Yeah. And so, I'm not, I'm going to be the last one to say, I think Hollywood's dangerous and all this stuff can be, but so can I. I mean, all of us are capable of, of ill. And so, I, I love the fact that right now we're in an age where all of the major platforms are all open to and in fact, seeking out projects like this. It's too balanced and charitable for this show. I'm afraid. Yeah. So the final score because, because of Dallas's great integrity. Magnanimous. Magnanimous. Magnanimity and integrity. Final score is eight to four. Now, speaking of numbers, seasons one through five of the chosen are streaming now on Prime Video. Season six will debut with three episodes on November 15th, followed by a new episode each week through December 6th. Check out this teaser. [Music] [Music] My, my, oh. [Music] I'm kidding. [Music] [Music] This is the way. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] So there's time for you to catch up on the show. Wow. That's for season six. [Music] You know, I'm not, it's not flat or whatever. I teared up a little bit at the, at the, at the crying outness. [Music] Thank you for watching. Get ready. Get ready to watch all the old seasons and the new season. We will see you on the next episode of Yes or No. [Music]