Yes, Also - Mel Cowan

Welcome to Yes Also, I'm Susie Barrett and my guest today is my long-time improv pal, Mel Cowan. Mel and I have played on our UCB team's sentimental lady together for 20 years. He's like a brother to me on stage and off and those of you who know his improv know that he is hilarious and generous and smart and just the best. This is a particularly great episode for anyone who finds a little bit of trickiness with premise-based improv. Mel talks about his own challenges with that and a reframing that caused a breakthrough for him and changed his improv for the better. If you love this conversation, remember this is just the first half. You can access part two by going to yes also dot supercast dot com and subscribing and you will get a whole boatload of benefits. And you'll be supporting the show and you'll help us pay our guests and we will love you forever and ever. For more Mel Cowan, check out sentimental lady the fourth Friday of every month at UCB live and live streamed or if you can't wait that long, here he is right now. Mel Cowan. Hi Susie Barrett. My buddy, my long-time buddy. My long-time buddy. You are one of the people that I have done more in-prob shows with than anyone on the planet. And I'm incredibly honored that that's true. Good and that's the correct response. Great. Good. Yeah. And I feel just neutral about it. Yeah, honestly that and that is the correct response. Good. Well, well, well, here's another show with Mel. Yeah. Oh, oh, Mel's here. Oh, oh, oh, oh. Mel's in tonight. Okay. Don't you have something going on with Katie or? Yeah, I mean, did you want to go to another place? There's a great restaurant next door. It just opened up like 18 years ago. La Valita. Have you tried the eight menu items? I guess I could pop on over but we have a show, don't we? I mean, we could but you could go over there and we could just pop over later if we want and just run into you another time. Oh, yeah, that sounds good. Okay. I guess I'll call Katie and see if she wants to come over. Great. Yeah. All right. We'll see you later then. Okay. Okay. You have a job, I mean. Okay. I mean, sentimental lady is our UCB team that was a Herald team and is now a house team. And this year is our 20 year anniversary. How does that make you feel? It's interesting. I'm so delighted. I'm so delighted that we're still doing it. It does make me feel a little old but also in a cool way. Yeah. A well seasoned chili. A real bust flavor. Yeah. No, I mean, I like that we still do this dumb thing. Yeah. I'm incredibly delighted and privileged in honor that we get to do this dumb thing. We still like doing it. Yes. And I hope that if we as a group or whatever there is that moment where we're like, we don't like doing this. We won't do it anymore. Yeah. But like, I think this group still really likes it in each other and we're having a good time. Yeah. I don't see, I don't catch a whiff of any jadedness. Even to the extent that we just started rehearsing again. We're rehearsing again. Yeah. With the coach for no reason. Just to get better. Just to get better. Yeah. Yeah. The process of it is still a lot of fun. And I was actually thinking about them in the context rehearsal. I won't try to describe the scene we were doing other than the only bit was that we were clapping a bunch. Oh, yeah. And when I say like, my body was filled like I was almost crying. I was trying to keep from laughing. Like I felt like it was a full body experience to keep myself in that scene when all I wanted to do was just clap louder and louder because that was the bit. That was a bit. We were just all clapping. We were supposed. Berg was trying, someone was trying to direct us in an acapella rehearsal. And as soon as we started singing, we all started clapping. And then that was what we chose to heighten. That was it. It did get us to your pun. I thought this is an acapella group. I thought it was acapella. If I was not keeping it together before that point, I was definitely not keeping it together after that point. And then we hit the sidelines and Berg looked at his hands and then slowly showed them to us across the stage and his hands were like beat red from clapping. From clapping to much. Here's the thing that that, so that was our first practice. We have like three more coming up. That experience made me go, oh right. Something isn't just to figure out forms. We're trying to noodle with a new form right now or new, yeah, I guess new. Yeah, I was going to say new to us, but it's new to everyone. So we're trying to figure out, like iron out what that is and how to do the mechanics of it and whatever. That aside, the best part of practicing is all the outside of the lines play that you can do, the ways that you can make each other laugh, the bits you can do on the sidelines because you're not in front of an audience and you don't have to be tight and together. So all of that shit where Berg shows me his hands and I start cry laughing. His hands look like they're bleeding from clapping. But it's like we wouldn't do that during a show. We would be paying attention. And the looseness of practice is really fun. I think musicians call it woodshedden. Oh. Yeah. It's the version of just like fucking round of the garage, dicking around. It's like, yeah, we're not not trying to get better, but sometimes it is important to just dick around. Yeah. And yeah, maybe we're going to learn the show. We're working on a form or whatever, but also it's super important to just make each other laugh. And that kind of be the most important thing that we're doing for at least some of the time. There's like a kind of flavor difference of the two is like after a show during and after a show, we're all, we've got like our hyper critical hats on because we're analyzing it and going like, okay, well, did we like putting the monologue in the middle? And, okay, oh, I'm sorry. I moved to the chair at the wrong time. I know we said we were going to do just a strong cross instead of moving the chair. We're doing that. Right. So we're looking at it critically. Whereas in practice, we're all just fallen in love with each other again. We're making each other laugh and we're like remembering why we love each other and this stuff in the first place. Absolutely. And I think the big part of why the team is has kind of continued to be a thing is that we mix those two things really well. I think we as a group are like, no, great. To this moment, we're getting into the weeds. We're going to get hyper analytical and the next moment, we're just going to dig around. And like, I think a lot of teams are one or the other or kind of skew maybe like we're going to get it right or they said, they said, they said no rules. And I think we are like, that is maybe our biggest strength as a group of eight people is like being able to balance both those things. And when it's time to dig in, we dig in and when it's time to fuck around, we fuck around. And that the ability to kind of blend those things is maybe the dig and fuck, the classic, the classic, some people call it dig and fuck, other people call it a fucking dig. It's sort of a regional thing. Yeah, where you start at, yeah, it's regional. It's regional. Let's talk about regions. What's your favorite region? I love the Northwest. The PNW. Yeah. The N-no, sorry, the Northwest of Mongolia. Oh, okay, great. The MN Dub. Yeah. Let's represent the goby does. You grew up in Texas. It did. Let's start back at the beginning. Let's start back at us. Yeah, how did you find improv? How did you, you were like a film guy? Yeah, yeah, I came to it really late. Or comparatively late, I think from, compared to a lot of people like you. I know how comparatively nice. I, so yeah, so I grew up in Victoria, Texas, which is a couple of us in Houston, couple of us in San Antonio, Boston, Queen of Texas. Queen of Texas. Yeah, she's got, she's gorgeous. She's still got it. She's still, she's still very, she's still alive. She's, the Queen of Victoria is still, still alive. Oh my God, yeah. I mean, there's some questionable science propping her up. I just, I don't know, I want to get into it. But yeah, no, she's, she's doing great. Went to film school in Austin, UT Austin was there for a couple years after I graduated and then came out to Los Angeles in '02. But yeah, I was a film school kid. And then, yeah. With the aim of being a director. Being a writer director, that was, you know, and a very serious one, very serious writer. And Ochoa. And Ochoa. And, but I had always performed, because my mom was a choir director and we would do musicals. I don't want to brag, but I was snoopy in your good man, Charlie Brown. Twice. Back by popular demand. Twice, two different years. Wow. No, no, I played him twice. There was sort of a, there was snoopy and shadow snoopy in the same production. I did a, I colored us on the lines. The other one was black with white ears and you would run back and feverishly change your costume and then run in from the other side of the, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, wrote my own songs. It was the whole thing. But, and, you know, it was like in my mom's like Renaissance, fair dinners that she would put on via the choir. Yeah. No. And, yeah, I was, I was like she would put on these full on like dinners that the choir would perform throughout. I was like the NC dressed up as a gesture. Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh. and anytime, like if there's, if I'm getting too full of myself, which of course happens all the time, all she has to do is just, just keep it in her pocket. - Exactly, hold it up and it'll just-- - She just keeps it in her pocket. - Hold on though, when you say her Renaissance fair dinners that she would have, that's not a thing that I know of. So she would do like her own Renaissance themed, like medieval times, I guess, not medieval, Renaissance is after that. But she would just, yeah, people would come and costume and-- - Okay, so the way it would work is, (laughing) yeah, sorry, bye bye. - For those of us who may or may not want to repeat this, well-- - Well yeah, and this may be, again, a regional, Victoria thing, but no, my mom, so my mom is choir director, she had a community choir for basically my entire life. It was a children's choir. And one of the things that she would do every couple years would be this, like, you would put on this one night Renaissance dinner and it would be in this lake. It would usually be in like a church, whatever, you know, like the, I'm trying to say it gymnasium, but like the church cafeteria, I can't remember. - Sure, yeah. And-- - The rock dreary? - Yeah, yeah. And, you know, we'd all learn, you know, summer's are coming in and all the classic, the Renfair classics. - Are we talking like she's rent an adult summer and a harp and stuff like our people everyday? - I don't know how to add adult summer. - You fucking nerd. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, no, like, I mean, yes, we would-- - A lute to flute. - We didn't go quite into the full on, like, period instruments, but yeah, everybody's saying, everybody ate turkey legs at the thing. And yeah, it's the, it's so geeky. It's so geeky, but very sweet. - Yeah, I am in love with your mom. - Oh no, she's single. - She is single actually. - Yeah. - She's, yeah. My mom is the coolest, 100% the coolest. She's, she was a teacher for her entire career, quite a different entire career. And absolutely gave people in this small house, Texas town, an artistic experience and an artistic, a taste of the artistic that they might not have gotten otherwise. And I know for a fact, so many of those people are still incredibly moved by that connection that they had from doing this very silly. It's not for a lot of people. We're not professional, we're not gonna go on and become, you know, but I think I learned from her early on this idea of, no, you can just doing it is enough, doing it and working really hard at it. Like, is this is not, I wanna be clear, this was not like, we're phoning it in. Like my, we-- - This was Burning Man level. - We, it wasn't even so much like the production of it, but like, it was a lot of rehearsals. Like, we got it right. Like, my, you know, the, the, I was in some sort of weekly choir rehearsal, at least my entire life from third grade through high school. - Wow. - You know, either with the Jones choir or eventually in the chamber choir, which is the one that she started for the high school kids. Yeah, she, she, she operates in a different level. - It's the best life lesson that, that overlaps so nicely with improv. Like, doing it is enough and doing it somewhere where there isn't a lot of access to other, in some of these towns that Broadway tours aren't coming through and there isn't a lot of like, funding for the arts, improv is springing up everywhere. And it is such a wonderful creative outburst that anyone can access and do. - If you've got a corner of the room and one other friend. - Yeah. - You can, you can do this, you know. Yeah, and to your point about, about lack of funding and everything, yeah, I mean, this is all where, you know, where she's getting grants and funding from anybody that she can and, you know, I mean, the town of Gripin was a, you know, 30, 40,000 people, we had a big high school, like a 5A high school for Texas. We did one, one act play per year in our cafeteria, which was, there was a slightly raised area at the end of the cafeteria. - Like a six inch, six inch lift. - Six inch lift, yeah, yeah, yeah. We tried, we tried to get nine, couldn't do it. That would take money away from, - Football. - To the front football. - Yeah. - We had, we got to get these new jacks, Drafts. And yeah, so that, that wasn't indicative of the kind of, but of course, like so many places that don't necessarily have a lot of just access, there are a lot of people that want that access. And that want to be doing creative things. So this is not a, there's no creative stuff in small towns. I think the truth is, it's exact opposite. I think there are a lot of people that are very hungry for it. And so the people in those small towns, or wherever, those people who, wherever they are, who like foster a scene, foster access, foster some sort of community, there are saints. There, they, you know, they deserve to be celebrated. My mom's definitely one of them. You're gonna make me cry. We need our beacons. Yeah. And those like, those beacons that light up on their own, you know, like your mom sounds like she's her own self starter. And she's like, I'll do it. I'll find the costumes, I'll make the rehearsals. Once that lights up, it calls all the creative mods to it. - That's a great way for that. - So people who maybe don't have the energy or the wear with all, or don't know how to rent the room, or do the thing, or wouldn't be motivated, or whatever, they see the light, and it lights up whatever's in them. They're instinct flocks to it. And that's so important. - It feels like a lot of times it comes down to like permission. - Yeah. - Like, oh, you can do this? Oh, and then it's like, then it sort of creates a soul momentum and other people get involved and want to be part of it. But a lot of times you do need someone, someone or something to kind of like light that fuse. And then to your point, it's like it tracks like. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Gonna be all the more crucial as we head into these more separated AI times. - Slightly darker times. I just, slightly darker times. - Just dim. - She said, "It's a little dim." I just need a squint and need my readers. No, the thing that makes me the most hopeful these days, specifically about the AI and everything is like 15, 16 year olds fucking hate AI. And I think that rules. - Yeah. - It's an insult, like AI slop. - Right. - And they're going back to analog. They're going back to technical. They're skipping back a few generations in terms of technological stuff. They're choosing to use less screens. - Yeah. - Buying DVD players and record players. - Walkamans and tapes. And maybe that's just my Gen X nostalgia that's responding to that. But I think there is a broader thing that it is, they're going to focus on not, I don't know, there's something about AI that, I'm just AI, internet, whatever. It flattens everything. - Yeah. - And you don't have, you're always wondering what someone else is thinking about something. Because there is, there's a lot of great stuff to find out that out there. There's a lot of great other people thinking about things. But I think of a certain generation, we kind of figured out what we thought about things on our own, because we had space and time to do it. And I think a decoupling from the primacy of the internet, AI, et cetera, will give young people time to just be like, "Yeah, I'm going to figure out what I think about this, "and figure out what I want to do about this. "I'm going to fuck around with my friends "and do improv, start a band, et cetera, et cetera." - And it matters if something is real or not. And if it's coming from someone's heart and mind or not, it matters. The point of the video is not that I wanted to see someone like wrestling a stick out of the dog's mouth. Once I find out it's fake, I hate it. I don't need to see that image. I wanted to, I was responding to the connection relationship between this person and their dog. It's fake? Okay, fuck you. Don't care. - It's just, it's the whole difference between, and this is my version of it, but like, once we started calling stories content. - Yeah. - Boy, it's just like you're telling on yourself. - How discontent? - I am discontented with this. Yeah, it's, you're making, and you know, to a certain extent, if you're making movies or TV, whatever, we've always been sort of at the wins of corporate entities to a certain extent. But with the idea of just like putting, like everyone's putting their life, they're giving it away as content. Like they're taking these moments that are theirs, their memories, and they're making content out of it. And I hate to be like an old man about that, but like there's something philosophically about the, like the little or the semantics of changing it to content. - Here's totally right. - That is, and that is not a new thought, but like, but just like that. I think it's a bummer. It's mine. It's mine. I thought that I thought that. You know, when I hosted an original thinker, um, I just, it bum, it bums me out. Yeah. Everything is monetizing attention and hacking brains and eyeballs to funnel us all towards whatever sponsor owns that memory. Oh, it's so dystopian. It is. Like, you know, the, the, we used to make zines just to make them. People still do. And they still do. Yeah. And that is a, a, a, it can't go back to the, the, the, the, the shift. I think those, they, obviously, never stopped making them, but it feels like there's a, oh, this. Let's make stuff with our hands. And let's make stuff with our friends and let's make stuff that, that reflects a scene and a moment and everything. And it's exciting. Yeah. Uh, and improv, uh, it thankfully is something that you know that it's being created right in front of you. It's using your input. Yeah. Uh, what better time for improv to still exist than now. Like, never more important. Yeah. You're welcome. Everybody. We're still doing it. We're literally sentiment, lady, and UCB are going to save the world. Yeah. Yeah. We can say that. You're welcome. Uh, I just got an email saying, our show is now called sentimental lady presents content. Oh boy. But that means we still got a show. So you moved to LA. You want to be a big serious writer, a big serious writer and, um, director and everything. And I didn't mean to cut director from. No, no, no, no, I don't mean. Yeah. I wanted to do all the things. Um, no, I, I, I, I came out, uh, like, I, um, who did hear with the woman I was dating that of course, uh, imploded spectacularly, pretty, pretty quickly. Super. Super. Super. Noma. And then, you know, I was, I guess I would describe myself as depressed for a while. I am working like the shittiest jobs. I worked like three graveyard shift jobs in a row, living in this, like, devils of and of an apartment in Sherman, and like, so like, trying to sleep during the day after working all, all night. Can I describe the apartment that I'm envisioning? Okay. So you said devils of and there's no AC. Uh, there, there's the oldest, shittiest window unit in the front way far away. Yep. You know, nowhere near where you sleep. I'm picturing like a cavernous living room with gray carpet, uh, hardwood floors. Okay. But they're very, but they're very old and bad. Yeah. So that means you hear everything. Yeah. Yeah. Do the windows have like hanging vertical, of course they do. Yep. Yep. Of course they do. Uh, all the walls are, are like, uh, meant to be wider off white, but it's tired and it's just tired yet. It's not white anymore. It's just tired. Yeah. It's a tired way. Uh, it does the kitchen have like a half wall, half counter thing. Uh, uh, yes, actually, yes. Yeah. Pictureing every, like my early apartments and then like all those, uh, kind of Sherman Oaks old buildings. Yeah. Is there popcorn? Oh, that's the last popcorn, baby. Yeah, baby. Yeah. It's like old movies every night. Yep. Um, yeah. Yeah. It was, it was, uh, not great. And, uh, can you tell me really sorry to cut you off? Can you tell me that's the graveyard shift jobs? I just, I was a, I worked a, um, a PA gig on a reality show called the next action star. Um, that lasted one season because it was bad. And, um, I was literally just supposed to be like one of the three people who were at the house where these next action stars were living at this, like, I think we were, I think we were actually living next to the house, it's next to the lean order decaperous house up in the, the sunset hills, whatever. Um, and, uh, uh, so I never really interacted with anybody on the, on the show. I was just sort of a ghost that came and went and like, wrecked a car, like wrecked truck because I was too sleepy. And, um, nearly got fired. Weirdly, the reason I didn't get fired was because I wrote what I wrote a little, uh, like memo of what I, what had happened. Thinking no, the only person that's gonna read is, is like, some insurance person. And I unfortunately made it funny. And the producer read it and was like, this fucking kid, what is actually like? Cause I like fucked up a door on a truck, you know, and it was very stupid. And, but if the line producer, um, read, a different producer read the letter and was like, oh, this, this guy's funny. Blocked my firing and we've now, we've now been friends ever since. You just never know when you're gonna get discovered. And this is what I'm always telling people, be funny. If you're filling out a form at the DMV, why not make it funny? Make it funny. So yes, you're, you're definitely gonna wreck cars along the way. You're, you're going, you're going to be too sleepy to drive and you're gonna drive it into a pilot. That's gonna happen. But make, once you get lemons, make some funny lemonade. That's what's what, that's, that's the truth. Yeah. The most important ingredient in any lemonade is humor and make it yours. I don't want to hear the same car statement jokes. Give me something spicy. Talk about why your girlfriend sucks in bed. Yep. Yep. It was, it was 14 pages of, basically that. Um, yeah, it was, it was, so was that, that stupid gig. Um, I, I was a, it was like a nighttime transcription gig. Uh-huh. I had that. And then a third one, I'm actually kind of blanking on what, um, but you worked at a graveyard. I worked at a graveyard. Yes. Uh, I was, I was, I was digging the, uh, the people up though. Oh, yeah. Oh, you were, you worked for the robbers. Yeah. So that's actually the, that's actually where the graveyard shift comes from. If you work at a cemetery at night, you were actually digging the, and you're just taking them to the mad scientist on the hill to potentially harvest and use to create some, yeah, got it. Yeah. The cemetery business is not a good one. No, no, no, it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's a, it's a vertical integration. And it's symbiotic because they're going to need that land space. So you're actually giving them a plot back. And, uh, and they've already taken the jewelry. As soon as the family leaves, they scrape that dirt off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on. Wait, I think we're working. Um, uh, uh, yeah. Yeah. So, so I was, I was in insane person, but, um, during that time, I was like with some of the, my friends from UT, we were making sketch videos, um, that we, like, this is, this is literally before YouTube existed. Oh, well, so we made DVDs. We made DVDs of our sketch comedy shenanigans. And put them where, like nailed them to just telephone calls. Yeah, just, uh, just through them out the windows, we drove around. Um, yeah, I was the dumbest thing. But where, what did you do with them? Do we, may we, we ended up, I think we did end up actually like right. We made a website. Okay. And we'd have, and that, and that was when the fun thing was you could put a, like, a tracker and see like where people in the world had clicked on your, on your videos. And it was, it was always a, it was always pretty fun when it was like, oh, there's, there's some of you're like Slovenia that watched our dumb video. Yeah. Um, uh, no one ever gave a shit about those. It was great, but it was so much fun. And, and we, and we, we learned a lot about making stuff. And then I, weirdly, from the, the friend who kept me from getting fired, I met, um, an abilator on, on the set of a, uh, the top of a short film. We started doing sketch, uh, like, it's it's stand up together, did sketch together. We also then had a sketch group together for, and that was doing like weird backyard. Was that animals from the future? Yeah. Okay. It was you too. And another yeah. It was, is me, uh, Eric Philip Kowski, Matt Offerman and Bill and, uh, any relation to Nick Offerman. He has relation to Nick Offerman. Yeah. Yeah. He's his little, little brother. Um, uh, not little brother. I'm sorry. Matt, if you're, I know you're listening to this. I know you prefer baby, baby bro, um, baby bro, um, uh, Matt could break my spine. Um, so you guys just started doing sketch, uh, on your own that wasn't through a, uh, yep, like got you. Yeah. Yeah. Both of those were just again, kind of to like do it. Yeah. There was no reason for it. Um, we, you know, in fact, like with, with animals, uh, we just did backyard shows, we did almost zero promotion. We like, kind of, we were like, uh, we're not going to do showcases because people do showcases. We should have done showcases. I have Mal, I have the same, yeah. Absolutely should have done showcases. We should have put everything we could have on any, I, it is a, it is the dumbest thing we, I like, it's the hugest career mistake I've ever made, was what, and I have to admit it was me. I was like, nah, let's, let's not do that. I think probably that other people in groups like, well, should we? I was like, no, no way. I'm not proud. But I get that, I get that instinct. And it's, and when you're young, you don't know the, all you see is timeline ahead of you and potential. And you're like, well, we're already doing this. I'm like, people are liking it. Let's move on our own steam and do it on our own. And we don't have to go corporate. And yeah, I, uh, I turned down the CBS diversity showcase every year because I was like, I don't want to get cast and stuff because I'm queer. Right. I want to do my own thing like book, and I want people to cast me because I'm talented and I'm right for the parts. Boy that blew me by here goes Drew Tarver But you know but but the the flip side of that is that we didn't go corporate We did we it was very much our thing and I think we kind of in that same spirit of Hyper-focused we're absolutely working our asses off about this like we we drilled these shows that we would do once you know and Combined with this sense of like we're really just trying to make each other laugh like it like we Was it was like our first rehearsal and I was like yeah, I was like you know me again in like a month And I was like no we're meeting again in like three days right and you say well plucking your dulcimer Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you slide But like yeah, I mean like I wanted to treat it like a you know I remember hearing about the pixies who like rehearsed Three times a week three to five times a week Yeah, and I was like and this is that so that got good. Yeah, and I was like no, let's if we're gonna do this Let's do this yeah um, I appreciate when I see shows as an audience member especially sketch which can be tough When something is really tight and really just on it like the first time I saw back in Jordan due to white guys and They were practicing all day in the park without their props just like for like eight hours at a clip Just to get all of their timing and all of their moments and their entrances and chair sets and I was like damn That's and it works It's like then you see the show and everything is just elevated to a polish level that is fun to watch and then and of itself is not The necessarily like that's the only way to do it You can also absolutely do sloppy fun improvisational whatever but like whatever you decide your thing is like Try to do that. Yeah so then Bill got on S no no five and UCB open up in like a few months later and it couldn't have come at a better time because I was like I really did think you know So hey great. We're gonna be this is a really good group. We're gonna keep doing this you know until they arrest us and and We know I was like well, well now what and Not having I had not done him before but I went and saw saw an ask and I was like that's it. This is it what grabbed you the I think it was the The contrast to other improv I'd seen which would have been short form stuff a little you know That that I was like yeah, that's funny, but it didn't grab me. I I Think it was the level of controlled anarchy that really appealed to me and just This kind of oh you oh you can do this and it kind of kind of goes back to where time I like the kind of beacon thing like there's a little bit of like until you see it You kind of you in some in some cases you're not sure that it that it exists right and then you see it and go great That that exists Sign me up right. It's like hearing a familiar like your your mother tongue Like you hear a familiar language that you've long forgotten, but once you hear it it comes back It's like oh, yeah. Oh no. This is my home planet. This style this genre that controlled anarchy is such a great description to for especially for Like Besser and yeah and that time of you see be where it's like it was all you know The seats were dirty and falling apart and everything felt a little bit like we're putting up a show and mom's basement Yeah, yeah, the it had that sort of punk rock vibe It felt like you're getting away with something. Yeah, there was there was a there was a little bit of Disrepidability about it that I that I liked and it felt it also felt very much outside of It existed in its own space. It was you know, obviously it's you know Two songs have been commodified, but like at sorry Please don't ever do the microphone. Yeah But at the time it really just existed in its own on its own planet and it was a planet that I wanted to get to let me on that planet So I started I took Certain class in October of '05 with John Ross Valley Legend treasure national true national treasure good match for you because you guys are both music heads Tim I I really lucked out with him with getting you know Getting a guy who had also started a little late, you know like I think he just you just wrote this like like I didn't want to be I didn't want to just be the funny guy at my office You know and I you know I started when I was like 28 I think he started maybe about the same time which is also more or less what will Heinz did Just a little later that we kind of done some other things and then found this thing and was like great This is the you guys are for me um and I will say it's never too late to start It is never too late truly yeah I'm my friend's mom started in her mid to late 60s Uh and and even that is not too late to start Uh yeah, so uh it does it does you like uh if you were to look at it from the outside briefly you might be like Oh, it's just a bunch of kids in that mess around. It's probably not for me But man if you if if you're If it Strikes your fancy at all you should do it totally if you're like maybe then the answer is yes Yeah, cuz why not when when else are you gonna live your life? You know uh and if it feels too late now well then it'll feel really too late in five years And you're gonna spend those five years anyway. Yeah might as well spend them laughing and goofing let man more goofing Yeah It's also like we touched on this earlier, but it's like one of the few creative pursuits that you can do right away with no gear and no and Yes, and you're doing it from day one like violin takes a few years before it sounds nice Yes, and like drums you have to really think about like every you know painting You got to buy all the paints and this is just like do you have a chair? Yep, do you have this classroom to go to with some buds? Yeah Uh, yeah the the barrier to entry To just getting up and doing it is low is lower than a lot of other art forms and um There's obviously so much stuff you can learn there's obviously training, you know that that you can get but at its fun on it's At its fundamental core it is just you just you and someone else and hopefully a fun group and and uh You're trying to make it to the left yeah, yeah, and that's the whole pursuit make each other and the room and that's it And I wanted to say I don't want to diminish the accessibility can be hard for classes because of the cost But thankfully we're in a world now where there's like more accessible stuff and jams that are free and stuff you can learn online So it doesn't have that same like you have to have three hundred dollars or else yeah And you have to go to this one theater and see only plays and it's like no no no like the in in a in a good way we have spread out the Um the entry points, you know, and it's also becoming think you can watch online you can you know that there the there there are books You can read, you know and It's it's better and man. It's just like like I'll like a lot of things is better to do it and maybe suck for a while then to not do it And also suck for a while for different reasons That's just suck for a second for normal reasons But suck suck for a brave reason suck suck for a cool reason I Want to come back to that idea or I might will just pause that I just wanted This dub tails to this is but I want to come back to improv You're making a movie right now and the thesis of your movie is it's better to make a ban with your friends Than to not make a ban with your friends and I read that thesis or that whatever that log line and I was like well That's perfect. That's exactly it. That's kind of it. Yeah, we so uh I wrote a movie a feature script with will Hines uh friend of the pod friend friend of the pod enemy of the pod Friend for life Good. I didn't want to enemy of everyone else enemy of the world But we have stuck by him good good for you good for you Um, uh, truly one of the one of the best people on the planet will raise uh Road just movie with him inspired Or very loosely by like his story But it's called we're starting a fucking band and it's about a middle-aged computer programmer with no musical skill Who Just one day decides to start a band and then does that yeah, and the whole thing is about him For a variety of reasons doing the thing that most of us would go well, I can't do that like uh, I don't know But he just kind of keeps doing it and it kind of keeps working and The they don't get a record deal or there's no battle the bands It's like there's no there is no sort of story-pick ending the the end of the the movie is their first show You know, um, but the but the point of it is As as you said it's better to do the thing than not do the thing yeah Whatever it is and in that example it's when you're like there's no the the whole thing that's building to the grand finale is just a show But it's like the point is it's not just a show. It's like on the outside it's low stakes But internally it means the world and and means the difference between a good life and a bad one for the sky Or like a life fully lived versus one full of regrets. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, and we shot it over, this is not by design, but we basically shot it over two and a half years because of the strike and fires and pandemic and da, da, da, da. So it's a movie we shot, you know, say 20 days. And yeah, if we shot that over a month, we would have gotten that, though, that would have been cool. But the fact that we shot it over two and a half years meant that the band became a band. We actually got to experience the songs changing. Everybody kind of got better at their instruments as they went along and we all became better friends like we weren't faking that like the lot of woodshedding. We would shed it. We got, we got it on tape, you know, one of my favorite moments from we were like, we were recording the music that the actual like tracks that we were going to be using for the final show. And we were listening back to one of the takes and Giovanni just hauled it out. You can tell we're friends. And like that, that, that's, that's, that's the best. Feels like that should be like after at the end of the credits role at the end after the music fades that that line is just that we just hear that in darkness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The, the, I always said that my goal for this was finish it and have us all still be friends. Yeah. Great. And then something about like setting a, like you, I do think you need to set goals, but like the, that's also not the point. The, the, the, it kind of comes back to that like, detail oriented, you know, like goal oriented versus process oriented, you know, the hyper focused analytical thing versus the fuck around thing. And you kind of need a mixture of both to get any, to get anything done. Because you can, you know, with AI, you can get anything done, but it doesn't mean anything. Yeah. And if you just mess around, you've kind of just messed around. And so there is this sort of a balance that you kind of have to maintain of how you kind of keep the, he keeps things moving, but also really, really enjoy the process. Yeah. I love that. And the goal is not the point. It's maybe the thing that starts the engine and gets you going. And kind of like, signpost and sort of keeps things motor and along and like, you know, but if you're only goal oriented, everything becomes pointless and it becomes work. I want to tuck into improv more. I see. Did you find that you kind of took to it right away or was it a clunky process? Both. I cannot express to you how awful I was when I started. I was so bad. In what way? I, every once in a while, I think about a moment in, in that one-on-one class where I, the suggestion was chewing gum and my scene partner and I ran around looking for chewing gum. That was it. We were just looking for chewing gum under the invented furniture. Like, is it there? Is it there? And I remember Jamie Dembo who was subbing that night. I remember just from the darkness, just her going, stop. Just stop. Which was the correct response like that we needed to be stopped. And I did nothing good in those first, one-on-one through four-on-one, everything. I just, a conglomeration of really, really, really bad scenes and I loved every second of it. And that's the point. I, every class, I left going, oh my God, I'm so bad at this and I love it so much and we would go to the bar and we'd all be embarrassed about what we did and we all still loved it so much. And then magically, I also talked about this in terms of just like timing. I got to audition for a herald team back when it was kind of just like 50 people and it's like, hey, are you breathing? I think I was at your audition. Is that right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I remember being like, it was very, very good. And I remember being like, he's so funny and I love his mustache. You know, big waxed curl at the time. Did I have a. I think so. No, maybe it was just long. I think I just had a mustache, you know, anyway. But yeah, I was, then I got on heraldite and I was still so bad for a while. Like I think I would, like I, like I, like I went to rehearsal every week going, I should leave this team. And then I would, because I'm, I'm dragging them down and then I would get to the rehearsal and I'm like, they'll have to carry me out like dead because I just had so much fun. What was that first team that you were on? Cinnamon Lady. But didn't you move for a while? Yes. So I, so started with Cinnamon Lady. There was a little bit of a shift and they moved me over to a very short-lived team called Empty Threat with some great people like Clay Larson, Todd Fasson was on the team, Kurt Schrainsberry. It was a great group that was, that we just didn't cohere. It wasn't a great team. And we lasted about six months and the best thing that happened was I was put back on cinnamon Lady. By that time you had been put on cinnamon Lady for like a little bit before that. And so then that group sort of stayed a unit. Yeah, that was our big click. Yeah, until we added the incredibly talented Hillary Matthews. Better than any of us. Oh my God, she's good. Yeah. But yeah, that, that, that group was basically, we got to perform weekly from 2006 to 2020. Yeah. To be between Harold Knight and another regular show. What do you think made you better? Or do you have like a breadcrumb on the trail that was like an aha moment or things that stuck or. I think it was, they're, yeah, actually, weirdly, I remember a, like a scene with Fernie where, I think for years I was worried about, I think still to this day, but like my thing is I'm worried about getting your scene right. I'm worried about fucking up your scene. I don't, I, you know, like that, that, that, that's my common mistake is like, and it's, it's a version of like, well, I'll just sort of follow what you're doing and then what that becomes is I'm not bringing anything to the scene. You're not making any choices because you're shredding water, making sure that you don't make the wrong choice. And, and waiting to see what the other person wants and being polite. I mean, I was a very polite, scared improviser for a long time. I mean, I'm clever enough that I can do some things that would like kind of make a scene work or it kind of pull a half joke out, but I wasn't ever really to use Chad Carter saying picking up my end of the couch. And I just remember one scene where like it just popped out and I don't remember what I said, but like there, there was a, I remember a choice being made and there was, it was a difference in the laughter between, haha, okay, you kind of did a thing right and a really solid like pop of surprise because it wasn't what anybody expected because it wasn't what I expected. And that thing has been something I've been sort of chasing and trying to identify and sort of when I feel on stage like I'm kind of just being being careful or polite. I try to find a way out of that. And it's not like, and now just make some fucking crazy shit. It's more like lock in, find a way to connect with both the improviser, whatever character the improviser's playing and try to be as honest as possible in that moment. And if that honesty is then be a lunatic, great, it's be as grounded as possible. But like that, that idea of really making sure that you're picking up your end of the couch and not letting this whole thing about, yes, ending the end of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You don't, you're, the scene is not your partner's thing that you're just there to witness while inside of. It's both of you building something that's outside of both of yourselves. I loved when you talked about like the big laugh came from something that also surprised you. The biggest high in improv when you realize that you've placed your surfboard on a wave that's coming from you, but you are along for the ride also. Absolutely. Yeah. It's the, the our version of flow state. Yes. And I do have those moments like I like two or three or four moments where it's like the, the line popped out of my mouth and it was the perfect button, whatever big like fuck you laugh, response and it was 1000% not planned. Right. Like I remember just like somebody else said it. Yeah. Like and it was, it was the closest I've had to like an out of body experience and that's the thing I'm chasing. Yeah. You know, where, where it is truly not planned, it is. It's what we talked about since the group mind thing. Like this thing that we've built, whatever, whether it's the herald or whatever it's show, like kind of just crested in this perfect moment where it was not playing, it wasn't me over thinking like, and now here's, 'cause the flip side of that is every single time I've been like, look out. - We're big brothers calling us shut. - Hey, everybody shut up. Mel's about to fucking kill it. If that is where I am in my mind, let balloon. - Yeah, air balloon. - Yeah, it just, you know, and it's the, the jazz musicians talk about, I think musicians in general just like, as soon as you're playing, and as soon as you think, who I'm playing pretty good, you fuck it up. - Yeah. - As soon as you think, I'm in the pocket, you fall out of the pocket. - For part two of this episode, go to yesalso.supercast.com. (upbeat music) If you like this podcast and you want double the content, head over to yesalso.supercast.com and subscribe. You can also help us out for free by subscribing to us on YouTube and talking us up to your improv communities. If you have a question that you'd like us to answer in one of our Q and A episodes, or a topic that you think would make a great bonus episode, put it in a five-star review. If you're a theater who would like to host us for a live recording and improv show, let us know at yesalsopot@gmail. A very special thanks to our producer, Ryan Rosenberg, audio and video editor, Brian Kessler, and Britt Faye, who does our marketing. Thanks for listening and we will see you next week. No, we won't, Susie, that's not how podcasts work. They will see that they won't even see us. They will listen to us, so it's actually the opposite of both things you said. Thanks for listening and you will listen to us next week. Maybe, we don't know. [BLANK_AUDIO]