Yerba-maté (Gourd Herb)

Hey everybody, Casey here. This is our fifth year making completely arbitrary. And to celebrate our cone of the month for this month, December 2025, is actually five cones. That's right. We're making a sticker sheet with five individual cones on it, one from every year we've been making this show. And we want you to get them, which means now is the best time to support the podcast at arbitrarypod.supercast.com. But we're not just leaving it to that. Right now, 760 of our dearest fungal associates are supporting the pod as Tremium members. If we get to 800 subscribers by the end of 2025, then we're giving everyone a bonus sticker. That's right. Every single supporter, regardless of the tier you're signed up for, if we get to 800, everyone gets a bonus sticker. Now to sweeten the deal even more, if you sign up now this month only, you'll get 15% off your first three months at either support tier. 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That's a good, good, good question. Yeah, but we got some tea here. Some nondescript, completely unrelated tea. Completely unrelated. That's right. Because we're not talking about anything that makes tea today. We're talking about the Gord herb. Gord herb. I love saying that. Gord herb. I wonder if they, if you can go to a restaurant and have Gord herbs served as an order. I know that I was wondering that. I want to. Yeah. Well, that's an area. I know we need we got to do that because it sounds hilarious. Yeah. I love that word. Those words. This exact. Gord herb. Gord herb. I think I knew a Gord herb in high school. Yeah. Very round hollowed out when he got to dry. That's pretty cool guy. That's right, Alex. We're talking about the Gord herb today, which is otherwise known as Ilex periguarian sis. Oh wow. So that is the Paraguayan Holly. That's right. Ilex. Exactly. So this is of the Ilex of Paraguayan. Okay. Cool. Again, I'm going to say that Ilex Paraguarian sis. Paraguarian sis. Exactly. That's my best favorite pronunciation of the scientific name. I think it's great, Casey. And we're going to talk about all that Ilex goodness. We got to do so after a break. We will be right back with completely arbitrary cheers. Cheers. Oh, babble. My babble. What's up everybody? Alex here. Let me ask you a question. Why do most of us want to learn a new language? It's probably not about memorizing grammar tables or topping a leader board or keeping your streak alive. It's because we want to speak it out in the real world with real people. And babble can help get you there fast. Learning language on babble is about small steps, big wins, and progress that you can track and feel these bite-sized lessons fit easily into your daily routine 10 minutes in the morning, 10 minutes in the evening. Whenever suits you, you can learn a new language. And did you know that babble is so much more than just lessons they offer very large collection of you guessed it podcasts where babble experts reveal language secrets and offer an inside look at local cultures. Casey and I both used babble me to brush up on a little Spanish him to learn Italian from scratch. And they're both going great. And guess what? Every course comes with a 14-day money back guarantee. But here's a special limited time deal for our fungal associates. Right now, get up to 60% off your babble subscription at babble.com/trees. That's right. Get up to 60% off at babble.com/trees. That's spelled b-a-b-b-e-l.com/trees. Rules and restrictions may apply. Hmm, welcome back. Too completely arbitrary. Welcome back indeed. Now, if you guys are hip to it. Wow. I hope you're drinking the same gourd or we're drinking. Oh, we're drinking gourd or Alex, we are drinking gourd herb right now. Let me see. I don't see him in there. Yeah, there's no herbs. We use a little tea bag. It's not quite traditional. That's right. But traditionally speaking, this tea that we're drinking and I say tea because tea is what we call it. But most people call it more uninfusion. We're going to have to talk about that. It's a little bit different. But if you are smart to it, then you're also drinking this because Alex, do you know what gourd herb means? Well, I guess in character no. In character, luckily Alex is always in character. He is a method podcaster. That's right. Gourd herb translates to yerba mate. yerba mate. Exactly. Right. In fact, so in Spanish, yerba means herb. Okay. If you just look at the two words, you can say, oh, yeah, sure. yerba whenna means that's good herb. There's a lot of places called that weed. Actually, I don't know it. Okay. But there's a couple of places and things that I've heard called that. But I don't think it's actually weed. I think it's a different plant. Oh, like towns and cities and things? No, no, no. What am I thinking? Buena vista. Not Buena yerba. But maybe there is. I feel like there's a place in California or something. Okay. I don't know. It is unimportant, Alex. But that means herb. herb. Yes. Yes. And then mate means gourd. Okay. And that actually comes from a quencha word, which is a native, a native group down in South America. That's right. We've talked about them before. We have. We've talked about them. And today, we're not going to be talking as much about that group as we are a different group called the guayaroni. Guayrani. Oh, gayani. I don't know how to say these words, Alex. I'm trying my best. Okay. Let me look at it. I'm not saying I can do better. All right. This is a group of people called the. Okay. I would say guayrani. Guayrani. Yeah. How do you spell that with a G? Well, that's how I would say it. Guayrani. Guayrani. Guayrani. Yeah. What? You don't really say the G in Spanish. Hold on. It's a Spanish. What? Yeah. Is that real? Is that true? In this context, yeah. In no idea. Like you know the restaurant Guero. It's actually Guero. No way. It's true, Casey. I mean, somebody can email me if I'm completely wrong, but I'm now I'm 99.9 per cent sure. But a second ago, you were a thousand or a hundred percent? Yes, exactly. All right. But then when I say it, I become less short. All right. Well, we'll talk about that in a second. Guayrani. But that's Guayrani. Oh my god. Okay. So the Guayrani people. Yeah. They are the initial folks who actually found this herb and they traditionally also grew gourds. And they would hollow out the gourds. They would cut the top off and then they would have this little vessel that they could infuse these leaves in. That's right. We take leaves and put it in there and they'd have this fancy straw. And then it became this really amazing drink. How lovely. But before we do that, there's other things we got to talk about. Oh, wow. Well, Casey, let's imagine that you and I are traversing the ancestral lands of the Guarani. And we come across some. And Urba, we come across some gourd herb. Guarani. What the hell? Casey. Let's idea this tree. Oh, right. So here's the thing. This is a holly. It looks like a holly. You walk around, you see it and you're like, that's a holly. Yeah. And you'll be right. It just looks exactly like it. It's got the whole kit in soccer terms. Yes, in soccer terms. But she's honestly a little, little anyway. Oh, my team's all my team's loose. That's all the enemies. That was the case. Sorry. Anyway, yes. Okay. So the native lands of the Guarani is in South America. Okay. Kind of in the southeastern area of the continent. Okay. So it takes up Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay, and Argentina. It's kind of a wide birth. Yeah, it's kind of where where they generally were. But they were people just like any other native peoples with different tribes and sex and kind of areas where you would now look at them and say, ah, here are these people. But generally speaking, Paraguay is where they were really kind of centered. Okay. And this is where these trees grew and continue to be grown today. Cool. So they are a native four species that like to grow kind of up in the mountains in this otherwise tropical, the semi-tropical area. So they are able to grow to about 60 feet tall, 18 meters. And they look like hollies in terms of kind of their bushyness. They kind of grow up with this big form. That doesn't really create a giant canopy like an ochre and maple. It doesn't really get like a big wide tree. It looks just like a big tall bush. Okay. More or less. And as a job, so to speak, it looks just like old big old gym. Big tall bush. So it runs up. So it grows up along a couple river valleys. And it's kind of just the species that grows along edge habitats and kind of in little openings around the forest. So it would be found commonly upwards in elevation. It can actually take a little bit of snow. And go down to about six degrees, negative six degrees Celsius, which is about 2021 in Fahrenheit. I think that tracks those those those hollies are hearty trees now. Yeah. Well, they are especially the ones that grow in northern North America. And over in Europe, the English holly, which is the one we've already covered previously, which is Ilex aquifullium. That's right. And then there's the American holly, which is Ilex opaca. Both of those grow way up in like New England. They grow up in high Europe. That kind of space. Okay. So those ones are really tough, but there are others that actually grow natively to the south and the southeast of North America all the way down through Mexico into the Amazon. Wow. There's a lot of different species of Ilex. Okay. But only four really have the things that you would want to put in a tea. It turns out for four species of hollies. Exactly. But we'll get to that in just a second. Wow. I want to I want to focus down on our one species and then we'll broaden it out. So it's bark is just like any other holly you've ever seen. It's just it's kind of gray smooth really nothing to it. Just normal bark. It means nothing. It means nothing to me. That's it. That's it. I promise. You mean nothing to me. But the leaves look just like holly the way the normal species that we're most familiar with, the kind of the northern reaches of the world. Except it is not pokey. It doesn't have any pokey big spines along the edge of the leaf. It's right. It's a whole margin. Entire. Farge. Hey, that's good enough. I think that's fair. Whole margin is an entire margin. Good for me. I just went to whole margin for lunch. Oh, you did. That's crazy. That's your whole paycheck. A whole margin. Oh. Yeah. But the funny thing about them is that they are actually obovate or ob long. I know what this means. What does it mean? Obovate means kind of reverse egg shape. Yes. So where is an egg has a fat bottom in a narrower top. Obovate has a narrow bottom and a fatter top. Yeah. That's it. That's it. That's it. Perfectly. It's exactly right. I think of it like a real life besides an egg. Something it looks like. It's like a like a canoe paddle or something. Yeah. But like the end of a canoe paddle. Yeah. Yeah. Just that the paddle part. Not the handle. Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I would say. You're like a long rounded fan of some kind. Totally. It's a good looking leaf. Exactly. It's thick. It's evergreen. They're deciduous and they're alternately arranged down the stem. So if you see a holly. You said it's evergreen and it's deciduous. Oh my god. I'm adecious. I don't mean I'm trying to start to be on top of you. No. This is good. This is good. I don't know what's going on. I'm reading it as I'm licking at it right now. Just saying the wrong words. Maybe you're you know you're you're over reading it. I think I'm overstimulated from drinking this tea. Oh wow. And with that let's take another sip. We have some thoughts on this tea. Yes. But those are the leaves. Those are the leaves. They're so I'm looking leaves. Yes. It is an evergreen diescious plant. And the leaves are you know they're kind of a light green medium green below. So you know you're normal. If you look at the top it's really dark. You look at the bottom. It's a little bit more matte underneath. And the thing that I think looks exactly the same. Like the thing that you just cannot get confused are the flowers and the fruit of this plant. Yes. So the flowers of holly as we talked about the last time we talked about holly they're in groups of four. So they have four petals, four sequels, four little stamen that pop up. And they're really like just cute. They're adorable little flowers. Is that pretty unique? The four things. I'm used to five parts. Yeah. Not really. It's not super unique. It's just it's notable in that you're all right. Most things have five or they have six or three or nine or something like other families. But yeah in this particular instance I think four is just cute. It's not necessarily unique. Okay. I think there's lots to have that. Now the thing is the being diesias you're only going to have flowers that produce pollen on one plant and you're going to have flowers that produce the fruit and have the ovule on another plant. Right. So pistolet and stamina flowers. So once those little adorable flowers and they all grow I should note in kind of these clusters that pop in the axles of the leaves. So right kind of from the armpit of the leaf you'll get this big poof of little flowers. And they don't really hang down. They're just kind of like they're held up quite tightly so that then when the female plants produce the fruit which are little tiny red berries and look exactly like hollyberries and to a tea. They're all these kind of little bunches right in the right in the axles of those leaves. Just kind of poop poop poop. Going all the way down the stems. It took me a long time to really realize even though I know even though I knew that fruit came from flowers. Yeah. That like if you see the flower arrangements on a tree or a shrub. Yeah. That is what the fruit arrangements will also look like. Totally. Yeah. Or at least some way that you can trace. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. I will say these flowers. You don't like them. I think they're so cute. I think they look like utility flowers. All right. That's fine. I suppose. I am. I am. Okay. All right. Whatever you think. Whatever your always. That's why. Okay. See. Riddle me this. That was funny. Are these fruit actually berries? They are. Wow. True botanical berries. Yes. My understanding is thus. But if you remember I believe the last time we talked about I like there's a little bit of like me. Is it like technically I think so but I've also heard that they are close to a poem or they're close to something else but my understanding I'm going to I'm just going to put my foot down and say this is a berry. Thank you. It's got a hard stone in the middle but not quite like a a droop. It's more just like one seed that is inside of a more or less fleshy outer bit. Cool. So it looks like a droop but I don't think it is. I think there's technically a berry with more intense flesh. I love it. I love when something is what it is. You know me too. It's so rare isn't it? It really is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Everything seems to be like well it looks like this but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Botany also just causes so much trouble with that. Totally. Yeah. Don't approve of it. No. So moving on. This is the berry actually is not what you'd expect normally often. We think ah well if you're going to if there's going to be a thing that humans or animals or something uses it's often the fruit that's the thing designed to be given to plants or given to animals from plants right? These berries look like a no go. Yeah. You don't want to eat them. I think it's just because you know Holly doesn't taste good. Potentially. It looks like Holly. But it's a small red thing. I'm like that's poison. All right. Yeah. That's fair. Okay. That's just my my lizard brain. You know loser. Hey. You know what? So far it's worked for you. Yeah. It's saying still alive. Still alive. So it is and that's fair. Birds love it though. Okay. Good for them. It's all about birds. Yeah. Which is the same as over here. You know you we get invasive English Holly because birds are like yeah I'm going to eat that and then they go poop off elsewhere and then yeah you got a little plant growing there. You don't want. Sure. So the leaves are what ultimately are used for a lovely drink called yearbamonte. And with that we say cheers. Every time we do it it's like saying beetle juice. Either drink three glasses of this before the yearbamonte man ship. Exactly. It's terrifying. I'll introduce it right now just because it's on my it's on my brain. But there's a I found an article in my research and that is let me see it's called the the oldest archaeological data evidencing the relationship of homo sapiens with psychoactive plants. A world overview. I'm so stoked. I didn't even have to read it because it literally has the table of the plant or rather the thing and where it was found in when. So it has the the old world which is you know just the world that is over in Europe Asian Africa. Yeah. And they have beer from Hornium 11,000 years ago found in Israel hemp cannabis 8,200 years actually I'm sorry I shouldn't say years ago this is BC so that's actually 10,200 years old. Oh yeah. They found that in Japan. So cannabis was first found but used by human in Japan. Cool. And this is like where they have evidence where they see their director indirect evidence. And then where they found it. So it's really interesting to look like what was found where and used by who. Wow. Theoretically these are just like okay we can say yes that's a start. But we can't 100% say like well it was probably like used way before that. We just don't have that evidence to say exactly. So often if something is let's say how about we say Mate, I like Paraguani Inzes. This says 650 BC in Argentina. Okay. That is the most that we can say for sure that there is direct evidence that humans use this all the way back then. Interesting. That's a long lived consumable. Yes it really is and it has been used like that. This entire time because it has such amazing properties. I hope this is a transition case. It is. I am so excited to hear about these properties. Excellent. Because I will say since we started to drink in this tea. Now what are you feeling? I feel like my IQ has gone up about six or seven points. Okay. I can remember every character's name and start right the next generation all of a sudden. What? And I can picture them in my head. This is amazing. That's incredible Alex. What else? You should really start to do this. I think I'm going to run for mayor. In fact I think I'm already running for mayor. You're supposed to. This has to vote for me. Oh I can't Alex. I just designed it. I just designed it. I did it just now. Let's talk about the properties case. Well let's talk about it. Other the side you know what are they? The effects of it. Benefits. Benefits. So Jesus. Jesus. I was like you could just let that out of fact. I know. I like it. We're both having a bit of a day aren't we? I guess so. I'm having a good time. I am too. I'm glad you're here. Yeah thanks man. I'm happy with you too. Let's get a refill here. Okay. So here's the situation. So this plant was initially found by the. Why Rani? Why Rani people see the accent is on the last. I do. Why Rani people? Yes. So again these are people down mostly in Paraguay which still they make up a huge proportion of the population. In fact a lot of people only speak that language by the same name. No kidding. More than Spanish. Yeah wow. How about that? So it is a group of indigenous people who initially are given credit for finding this but they traded it with everyone across South America. And this included peoples to the east to the west and to the north. So that would go into Brazil further into Argentina but as you get further north they didn't necessarily trade this one particular species because in the Amazonian rainforest so taking up like Ecuador and Peru and Colombia. There is another species there that also has this same kind of effect. Rivalry. Exactly but not really rivalry it's kind of like just separated. So it's kind of like I don't need to trade way over there which really far away because we have our own so they kind of have their own developed kind of drink off of this. Okay. And it is that one is called well this is even more confusing Alex. So it's Ilex space. G-U-A-Y-U-S-A. How about that Mr. I speak another language? Yusa. Yusa? I think so. All right well they call it the Yusa or the Ysa. Okay. So in the Ysa it's spelled W-A-I-S-A. Did they like drink it? And they were like oh Ysa hot. They probably did. They probably didn't. The name just stuck. Sometimes you get the onomatopoeia becomes the name itself. I love that. Okay so this is like their regional version of yerbimate. Exactly. Yeah. And that feel the need to like trade. Yeah exactly. This one just grew up in the tropics already so they found their own essentially. Okay. And that one there is evidence 1500 years ago they found it in a medicine man's tomb in the Highlands of Bolivia. Oh my god. It's like very nicely perfectly packaged leaves. They were like bound together. They were set in there in the tomb for this person. Wow. So pretty cool. And guess what Alex it doesn't end there. Oh my god. The Yupon Holly which is Ilex Vomitoria in the Dahoon Holly. Ilex Cassine. Those are two species that grow in the United States, Mexico, in North America. Oh wow. And they grow down the South Southeast down in Florida over into like East Texas essentially. The Colorado river comes through. Okay. So these are the main four species that have caffeine and theobromine in the leaves. Theobromine. Yes. Okay. Do you remember where that name comes from? No. I'll give you a hint. It's going to make a joke but no. It's tasty and it's chocolatey. Chocolate? Correct. Yes. I told you my IQ has been raised. Yeah. You're crushing it right now. Yes. So that is the that is the stimulant that you get in cacao. How about that? Okay. Yeah. So it's found in this. And like I said, it's found in a bunch of others. Tee has been made from Holly for centuries and centuries. Melania all over the place. But there's only four that really have substantial amounts of these properties that people actually kind of used to this day. Okay. So this is caffeinated. What you and I are drinking right now. Correct. Okay. Bummer. I'm sorry. It's okay. I should have looked at the back. Yes. You should have looked at that. It is caffeinated. But it also has just like 10,000 other important things that people apparently got from it. So it would help you poop. It's a diuretic. So it'll help move things through. And it also is apparently anti-carsinogenic, which is really great. Cancer fighting. Exactly. It's an antioxidant, which is good in some places. Other people say, "It's not really that good. It's not going to help you live longer." Sure. But that's a whole other story for another time. But it also as a stimulant helps people, you know, wakes you up and it keeps you awake. But it also has the same things that coffee has. So anything that you've ever seen, someone says, "Here's a benefit of coffee. This has the same thing in it." Heart health. There you go. Just about 10,000. Just ironic, isn't it? You were because like speeds your heart up. It's a stimulant. Yeah. I guess it is a little bit right. Yeah. Should I just drink coffee instead of exercising? I think you should. That's going to do the same exact thing. Yeah. You've got it down now. I figured it out. Yeah. So this was one of those drinks that is the reason that it's popular, at least up in North America and elsewhere, is because it was popular down there. But the interesting thing about this is that it was not popular in the days of your, the way that coffee and tea and all these other things that we've talked about in terms of trees that spread across the world and caused monopolies and wars and conquests or things like that. Because coffee was like and is, I suppose, and chocolate. Those are like the big hitter, like capitalist characters. Yeah. Your remonte seems more side character. Right. You know, more regionally loved character. And that is really kind of what it is. It's a fascinating history and how to read through a couple things to kind of find a good one. There's a whole book about this that I didn't know about or else I would have got it read it before. What's it called? Um, I don't remember. Good. The Bible? It's not the Bible. The name of the book, Alex, is your remonte, the drink that shaped a nation. Oh. Which nation? I don't know, but I bet you it's power going. Sure. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. So this initially, like I said, was found and really developed first by these native peoples down in this far flung section of river valleys in South America. Okay. Now they traded it as we noted with all these other people around, but that was kind of about it. They would go into the forest and they would find these trees that are growing natively out, you know, just killing it. And then they would go snag a couple of leaves and they'd enjoy it. And then they would just use it as almost a, um, a foraged kind of thing. But it is very popular. And all the rest, all these other species we've talked about through the rest of North and South America were popular for the same reasons. They would keep you awake. So one of them would be used with a mix of a small alcoholic drink in the Brazilian Amazon. And they would mix them together so that you'd have a stimulant and a little bit of alcohol and they would drink that for like long marches and walks through the forest. Wow. Which I'm like, you know what? I'm totally with that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to make it a little more fun. Exactly. It's a classic four loco. Do you remember those? Oh, God. The thing with four loco is that they would be like super high alcohol and a bunch of caffeine. Yeah. This was like an energy drink alcoholic energy drink. Yeah, exactly. And now they're still technically out there, but they're they're way different than they were like 2010. That original formula was like a part of a huge controversy. Yeah. It's because it was like too much. Yeah. Like killing people. Not having a good time with them. Yeah. So this is like the low octane version of that. That'll help you walk through the forest like a two and a half loco. I know. Yeah. Maybe something like that. Yeah. So it was like this. It was used very much like that. They would make really strong versions of it and drink a lot. So the Ilex Vomitoria. Yeah. What is that? So that is the yeah. That's the one that grows up here in the United States in North America. And it was used as a drink that would give you a cleanse. So you would drink a lot of it and fast. And then you would end up getting this really strong version. And then you just end up vomiting because you had no food in you and you got this like intense kind of drink. So the tree's named after the vomiting. Exactly. Yes. But there's nothing there's no there's no like bad compounds in it. And there's nothing that would cause you to it. It would cause an emetic is what it's called. Which is something that makes you vomit. If a cat is one of those. Yeah. So there's nothing in there that would cause that. Okay. It just happened to be if you drank it the way they were, then you would vomit. I see too much of it too fast. Exactly. And the Europeans or just too much of it and nothing else over a long period of time. I see. The Europeans saw this and they're like, oh my god. And that's why they named it that's like that's where the scientific name came from. Interesting. Okay. And they would call it well, it was called white to drink by the native peoples because it would be a cleanse and purity was associated with the color white. Sure. But then the Europeans would call it black drink because of the color of the drink was so dark. And they just didn't really know what it was. It was just weird tea that the native peoples drank that then made them kind of vomit and go crazy. But the craziness was just being like a stimulant so they were like hyped up. You know, okay. They would drink a bunch like really strong ones before they went off to war or battle or something like that. Sure. So it'd be like just getting yourself jazzed and ready to go. Wow. Like just chug a couple of spressos and then go to a median or something. It's kind of like that. My modern day version. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay. So it's a it's similar like that. So down in this very far like the most southern kind of areas, South America, they was really getting developed, right? But the thing is Alex as soon as you enter in Europeans, everything gets kind of fucked up. For sure. So pre this they were when you said that it was just more of a forage thing. I mean, there was no like agroforestry involved. Yes. Correct. Yeah. So they would just go out and find a find a plant growing and they would harvest leaves from it. Sure. So fast forward to the time when Spanish come in and the Spanish start to say, Hey, this is kind of interesting. Okay. And that's really about it. Like they did not have a market for it elsewhere. Interesting. There was a market for it there. And of course, the market was people go out and collect it and then trade it amongst themselves or they use it for themselves. That's what a pre European market was in this part of the world. However, soon they started to essentially create plantations of it. Okay. And they started to try to grow it and they couldn't figure out how to grow it. So they just were like, we cannot make this the little berries that we plant don't grow. They soon learned that you have to actually scarify it, which is a very classic thing for seeds. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. What does that mean? Well, like when you when a bird or whomever eats a berry, the stomach acid kind of breaks up the outside or scarifies the outside. Exactly. Or like in the in the jaws of an animal, like they actually get crushed or etched with the teeth or something like that. I see. That makes more sense. I always thought I was stomach acid. It's a little bit of both. You're you're you're totally right. Cool. Regardless, it had a pass through the gut of an animal. Then the seed would grow. Right. So it activates it a little bit. I think I think maybe I'll add this down. I think that's the same thing that's kind of happening with like cat penises and vaginas. Oh, tell me more like a cat penis is barbed. Yeah. So that it like it's harder to take out of a cat vagina. Sorry, everyone. Okay. But but I believe that the the kind of like the scratching of the inside kind of like activates the cats. A uterole function and makes it easier for for a germ to interesting. Yeah. Well, I am not a cat expert, but that is fascinating. I know any of that. It's like but cop that fact was like cobbled together with bits and pieces, but I'm pretty sure that's what's happening. That's amazing. Yeah. All right. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to just agree with you. Yes. It's like that. Just like that. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, man. Or at least that's what it reminds me of. That's fair. Yeah. And I think that's the good reminder. Cool. So what hey? So moving back to our year Bermonte here. Thank you. Yeah. So this was like a very traditional plant, a very traditional thing. And even to this day, it is essentially the same as tea anywhere else. Or you know, coffee, I think in the United States, but it's really not quite the same kind of tradition where it would be down there served all the time. It's always available. It is a household item. Just the same as what in England, they serve tea all over everything. Yeah. Same idea. But this is this different kind of tea. Your Bermonte down here. Yeah. So way back when initially the Spanish started to try to get it and be like, Hey, this is pretty sweet. This is, you know, gets everyone a little hopped up. This is wonderful. Let's go see if we can tell it. Nobody was interested. This is interesting to me. I'm like, what can we theorize about why it didn't hit? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have an idea. Let's hear it. Well, thank you, Alex. Traditionally, the way you make it is you take the leaves and you do this whole big processing of the leaves, which is not like it's not quite the same as tea. It's a little bit different where you actually just kind of let it get you have to blanch it, which gets like get it really hot and wet. Then you dry it, then you let it age for a little bit, then you pack it and it's ready to go. Okay. For fresh or for black tea or green tea, you take the fresh leaves and you let them wither. You let them just kind of go, and just turn brown. Then you dry them quickly so it keeps like the certain flavor and aroma. Okay. So the tea leaves, which is Camilla sinensis, that is a very particular kind of thing that has a nice flavor. Our yerbamate, you take the leaves, you chop it up into little bits and pieces, you include the twigs and you include some stems, you throw it in this water. It's not quite boiling and you put in this gourd and you drink it from a very particular straw called a bambia, or I guess if you're in the forest, bambiccia. Nice. And you drink it, but you just refill it then and refill it and you refill it. So you get like a tiny amount of all the good things over a period of time and refill it, almost like to half a liter or so that goes through this little gourd. Wow. And this is this is post processing. Correct. Okay. This is when you're actually drinking it and it's it's ready to go. Oh, so they include when they do the processing of the leaves, they include the stems and twigs. Yes, it's basically. Wow. So that also gives it like a bitter flavor. So my theory is that when you have tea, it's nicely succinct. You have only these leaves. You put in this little, you know, at the time, it wasn't a tea bag. It was more like a little metal container. And you dip it in your water and you take it out and you got this nice, clean, very kind of fresh and, I don't know, a nice aroma kind of thing. Uh-huh. Then you have this, which is a little more earthy. It's a little more bitter. It's not quite as pleasant in a easy way. It's what one would call an acquired taste. I see. So I think people in Europe had no interest in acquiring this taste. Okay. They've already acquired coffee at that point, right? I think so. Yeah. It had already been a while. I was also kind of an acquired. I mean, all these things are bitter. Everything kind of has that bitterness to it. Yeah. Interesting. So I don't know why this was not taken. But for whatever reason, the only markets that they ended up finding were just right there. I want, here's my theory. And I like yours. Thank you. It's perfectly fine. But here's mine. Uh-uh. Tea. Ah. I'm assuming by this point, coffee and tea already existed in the hearts and minds of a lot of people, right? I think so. Maybe not the scale that it will be. Yeah, definitely not the scale because this would have been the 15, 16, 1700s. Oh, okay. This was first happening. Yeah, maybe not then. So tea had definitely been traded. There was drinks like this all over the place. But it wasn't quite, it wasn't quite the global commodification that we have today. But it definitely was around. Tea had been known and traded. Coffee surely had been known and traded. But it wasn't quite the extent of what we could imagine right now. Okay. Well, then my theory kind of shifts. But it's like, I don't know. I already got a thing. I already got my coffee. I see. Yeah. You're saying, we don't need a new thing. We got to wrote this. Yeah, maybe. I mean, people like trying new stuff. Yeah. But that and also, I think I agree with you. As far as I know, traditionally, your bimote doesn't include like sugar and milk. Yes, I don't believe so. Okay. But coffee and tea, uh, you know, to most people, I would say, do include sugar and milk, definitely. Which make the bitterness a lot more palatable. Right? You can take it. Yeah. So maybe this is just like a step too far. I think you might be right. Okay. Interesting. And so that's, uh, that's kind of where the first problem started, though. Right into my jaw, Casey. Are you okay? Yeah. What's going on? They're all this caffeine. Oh, yeah. I'm ready to go to war. That's what I'm talking about. Alex. All right, everyone, go get your your bimote. We're going to go conquer a small country. I got to grab my sling. What sling? Yeah, for you to go to war. Yeah. Okay. This is a very biblical war. We're going to go to appreciate that. So, um, so the problems started happening here. Oh, because there was no market for it there elsewhere. There's a market for it still right here, right in the south of South America. So inevitably, the, uh, the Europeans tried to take advantage of this. And the people who really did the most damage at the very beginning were the Jesuits. The Jesuits? Yes. You familiar with a sect of people from the Catholic church? Yeah. I know the high school. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Jesuit high school here. Yeah. Okay. Yes. There is that. Well, they are, they're essentially a sect of Catholicism. Okay. And they almost like a cult in the old sense. Yeah. I think in the old sense. Correct. In like the Greek sense. Yes. I think you're right. Yeah. Totally. So they ended up going down and created a bunch of plantations and missions. Oh. And this is where instead of being like, hey, let's go out and, you know, we'll traditionally go out the forest. We'll find these plants and we'll bring them back. This was like, and now we're going to run plantations and they figured out how to propagate this very particular plant. Okay. So they made these huge plantations and then essentially used slave labor of the locals to grow a bunch of it and then sell it to different markets throughout the area. Okay. So that was the beginning of it all. Wow. And then it just kind of kept getting worse for these poor people. So they like took over the local trade network. Exactly. Jesus Christ. They created markets where before it was just a standard kind of trade, you know. And you know, I don't know the exact dynamics of what life was like in terms of trading and warfare or, you know, how happy it was. I have read one thing that said that the YRE people were a warlike people. But everyone still trades with everyone else. So I know that there's some amount of commerce down there. So rather pre Jesuits, there are some kind of commerce. So my, my understanding is that the Jesuits then said, yeah, great. Now we're taking control of all these markets. You guys are now just going to get it for us. And then they just turned it into profit, which is what all plantations ultimately are. Sure. You cut everything down and you turn a profit off of growing things in bulk, which is how it's growing. Mostly today, Argentina creates, I don't know, something like 280,000 tons per year, just Argentina. Whoa. So they ended up figuring out, oh, this is the most economic way to go about it. But the Jesuits in like the late 1800s ended up getting completely ousted from Paraguay and from this kind of whole area. And I don't remember exactly what the socio economic things that were happening that basically said you guys are out. But they got kicked out entirely. And all their plantations kind of just disappeared or went into private or government hands. Okay. But the people who were working them basically said, okay, we're going to go because you guys are treating us like slaves and they just kind of disappeared. And then there was no one who knew how to continue to grow these plants. Because the Jesuits only were the only ones who figured it out. They didn't tell anyone. Of course. So then Shouki went away and then you started getting people going back into the forest. But they're still a market for it. Alex. So now the market became you need to go out and you need to go collect a bunch of pounds of this this leaf. I don't care what you have to do. I don't care if you die while you do it. Bring it back to me or I'll kill you. Wow. By hand. Yes. Plant by plant in the jungle. Exactly. Jesus. So the Jesuits like if you can't think that it gets worse, it got so much worse for you know anyone who's down there running these kinds of things. Then over the next, you know, this is now late 1800s. They ended up kind of figuring out this balance. Now there's plantations. Now some of it is gathered out in the forest. But there's also this middle ground where people kind of will plant it in the forest and let it grow and then go out and harvest it. So it's almost like some form of agro forestry to this extent down there. It's like holistic or something. Yeah, exactly. But to this day, it is now a commodity and it's getting this huge, huge resurgence in the modern world. I think in the late 80s is when I read it really started to come back up. It's kind of this alternative to coffee or tea and something that was a little bit more, I don't know, felt more natural in a lot of senses. Like I don't know. Do you, does that feel right? I think so. I mean, you can buy it in cans at Fred Meyer, you know, and whether that's like we talk about that's not like an authentic experience. Exactly. But that happens what you can buy coffee in cans and that's not enough authentic experience. You can go to a coffee shop and have an annoying elitist hipster make your coffee. Hey, I like those coffees. I know you too. I don't think they're all elitists. I'm just thinking about one in particular. Okay, okay, there's one in your mind. Rosalind. Okay, okay, shots fired. But anyway, yeah, I think it's like, I don't know. I think it is maybe, I mean, the people I knew, I can speak for an experience that who drank your bimote were like you know, skewed hippie, you know, or like they traveled. Yeah. Yeah. But I get the sense. I mean, it is just, it is essentially tea, right? It is, yeah. Not maybe not literally or like botanically. Yeah, and this is the big thing. I don't know why because people like have a hard time calling it tea. Because it's not from a tea plant. True, but like 99% of the tea you've ever had is not from a proper tea plant, which is chameleous, I ncis. Sure. Most of it comes from a different kind of thing. Like chamomile tea. That's from a little astor kind of plant. Yeah. It's the flower of this non-assurances. Like a truly different related thing. Yeah, interesting. So I don't know why people kind of have a little bit of a version they call it no, it's your bimote. It's not your bimote tea. Right. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if one thing is like proper in terms of the local like the actual people who grow and drink it every day. Sure. You know, but yeah, that's tea. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. It is. It is. It's tea. You don't, you're the one thing that makes me think that it's like why people don't want to call that. So you're not supposed to use boiled water. This is interesting. Traditionally, when you poured in the gorg. Yeah. Now you came over this morning to record. And I was steeping the tea for a record. And you said, is the water boiling? I said, oh yeah, I've already, I'm steeping it right now. And you got so rage filled. Yeah. I knocked a bunch of stuff off your tv's broken. Yep. You threw a potted plant. I did. It's shattered. And you said, no, no, no, you fucking fool. You're not supposed to boil the tea. I rage you for a half hour. Carrying in your kitchen. And I said, oh shit. Okay. Some of the cops we had to act nice when they came. Everything's fine. Everything's fine. Office or shut up, Alex. It's all fine. Yeah. So you're not supposed to boil the tea. This is very curious to me. It's set on the package to boil the tea. I know. I got these in tea bags, which is the most, you know, it's a very streamlined process. Totally. And it's super common, not it? But the in the old fashioned traditional way, this is what I've read. So that makes me think that like that has something to do with it. Oh yeah, maybe like the temperature, maybe if the temperature of the of the waters to high, like burns something and makes it really better or yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Because even with stuff you're supposed to boil, there is that sweet spot like my thermometer on my kettle has a little red area. It's like get it in there when you pour it over coffee. Yeah. Exactly. And that's the same thing. Coffee is a great example. You're not supposed to have it at a boil. That's too hot. Yeah. And it is also not something we call tea. We call it coffee. Sure. Yeah. We don't ever say, oh, I want to get some coffee tea. Right. And we don't use it the same way as coffee. So in terms of the traditional way of drinking your bimates, you have a gourd nowadays. It's just like a rounded kind of vessel. Sure. And you put all the sticks and all the leaves and everything in there. Then you pour water, let it steep, and then that straw called a bambia. That is put in with little holes at the bottom. So it's like a filter in and of itself. That's right. Yeah. Then you drink it, then you refill it and you do that again over and over and over. However long until the flavor is really gone, I guess, or maybe the effect. And that's the same thing with coffee. With coffee, we would do a similar process where we put all of it in there, a bunch of ground up beans. And then with different presses, you can you push all of the bits and particles out or you have a filter that filters out the water from the particles. So it's there's like these two different kind of interesting ways for the two things that we don't call tea. But then tea is traditionally made in all the same ways. No matter what we call tea, generally speaking, you take it in a bag or small little, what are those? I don't even know what to call them. They're like the tea spoon things. Well, clamps. Yeah, exactly. I just I love just holding those and moving them. Those are great. Opening and closing. Just think it's great. It's like the tea rex head thing. Exactly. Yeah. You put those in there and then that's where you have. We call tea, anything that is in a tea bag like that. And we generally use it in different ways. So it makes me wonder if something about the preparation is what is important in terms of the distinction. Sure. But if we go with that route, I bought these and they came in tea bags. Yeah. I steeped them in hot water. We drank it. So this would make a tea. This is tea. All right. There you go. So if you do this with coffee, if you get coffee grounds, put them in tea bags, dip it in. Sure. You got yourself a coffee tea. Now we're talking. Now that's good. Think in Alex. I wonder. Yeah. If we have any listeners in South America who's like who drink yerba mate or who's family, they grew up with lots of yerba mate around. I'm very curious to hear if it's like all traditionally like we drink it out of this particular cup with this particular straw. It has to be this particular temperature. Or if they it's come to the point where like listen, we've been drinking this for hundreds and hundreds of years. We can just put it in a bag and just put some hot water over it. And I think that's what it is. I mean inevitably there are companies and groups and organizations that have that serve it in the same way. You know, there's everyone that is exporting it is also selling it down there to do everything. So my guess is that you are somewhere in between because I think in South America they will buy it in like bulk. Where you go to the store you'd buy like a kilo of it and you just like put that on yourself and then take some of it out, put in your cup and then you have it. Sure. So that's my understanding. Okay. I would still like to hear from everyone to see if there's like yeah we don't drink it like you know quote traditionally but we drink it the modern way. You know the way everyone else does. Yeah very interesting stuff Casey. Yeah it's a weird tree isn't it? It really is. The fact that it's holly just blows my mind. That is odd. It's really odd. Like what is it about holly? Why did the tree do this? Why does the tree have caffeine in it? My only guess is that it's just like everything else. It's you know a means of keeping insects and other herbivores at bay. Totally. Which is why it has all these great things in it. They're great for us in terms of our ingesting but they're bad for insects. You know insects don't like nicotine which is why it's in tobacco plants. So on and so forth. That's interesting. Yeah we love all these things. Exactly. Yeah. Like give us a little bit of poison and then we're like yeah baby. Give us just a little bit of poison. We just want nothing other than it. But yeah it is a really interesting thing and then if we look at the all the science there are all the other plants that are out there which I just cannot I just think this is so fascinating. So here you go actually the Yusa Ilex. Yusa. That was found 375 AD in Bolivia and then Ilex vomittoria the black drink. That was 1050 AD in Illinois. That's when they first found we actually drank that. 1050. Yeah. Well that just like broke my brain you saying 1050 AD and then calling it Illinois. Like 2000 feet no weight. Yeah tobacco 1500 BC in North America. Okay. So we have been looking for these kind of plants that give us this as they say psychoactive effect for so long and it really is kind of a curious idea like this is just one this is just one tree one instance when plant where we have found something that is delightful about it that doesn't cause harm at the end of the day like nicotine will cause you certain amount of harm. A lot of these other plants that people will ingest have these really negative side effects so far the only thing they can find for this is it sometimes has been found to produce mouth cancer and throat cancer. Oh. But they have looked into that and said I think that it's actually just impurities in the actual like the the vessel or the the stuff you put in it at some point. Okay. So it's not like. Oh interesting. Yeah. So like it's just pure leaves and stems then you're probably not going to get cancer. But oftentimes they smoke it and not smoke it is in like rolled and smoke it. They smoke it in ordered like prepare it like dry it. Yeah. It's smoked like a smoked meat and that I think also probably has a bit of carcinogenicness in it because then whatever's coming up from the smoke it gets kind of on and in the leaves. Sure. So interesting. Okay. Yeah. So it's this thing that like the more they look into it the more they're like yeah there are no bad side effects and of all the plants of all the world that I have this giant lich that I can read off to you. Yeah. This is one that people's before there was science the way we understand it today. Before there was really anything that we know is like the trial and error system that we you're like okay does this work let's measure it let's consider it people figured it out and they were just like yeah this feels good and nobody's dying from it. So let's keep on using it and now we kind of found that this and you know tees and a couple of other things are really good for us yet we've just learned. Us humans just learn. Totally yeah. It's great. We love these things that just like fuck us up a little bit in a very like non non violent way. Yeah. Now did I tell you though that beer is by far the oldest thing on here 11,000 BC. Wow. So yes we do like it when it fucks us up just a little bit. But if it can get us a lot of it. Sure. Yeah. We liked that something like 13,000 years ago. It is funny that we went to like beer before we went to tea. Oh yeah. Exactly. At least we have you know official official things for. Yeah. But yeah who knows. Well Casey I want you to I want you to want you to tell me again that your Bermatte may cause throat and mouth cancer. Oh god. You're a monster. We'll be right back with completely arbitrary. Oh get them up. Welcome back to completely arbitrary. I've cleaned up the mess and um Casey it's time to give our review of the Gord herb. I'm excited about this and I'm excited that you brought some so that we could actually try it. That helps that helps helps me clear my brain. Yeah. No exactly what I'm thinking. Wow. Good. Me too. Great. I even I even uh I think it's lowered my inhibitions a little bit. I just spat water all over my floor. Wow. And here's how the review works Casey. I have said it's an ad for DZ. Good news for me I guess. Here's how it works case. We're going to have some final thoughts on this tree and then give it a rating of 0 to 10 golden cones of honor as our resident expert will begin with you. That sounds good. Thank you Alex. The uh a year of a mod tape. So I've never really been a fan of the year of a mod tape. I've tried it once twice before. Yeah. I really jumped at it. Um it also I don't know a part of me sometimes feels like you see someone drinking it and they're really like going traditional. Mm-hmm. And I'm like yeah man cool. It like that seems out of place here you know in the middle of this city. I don't know. I think I completely get what you mean. I feel a little bit bad about that because I don't want to like yuck someone's yum. Sure. And like you know and if you drink it traditionally then that's like yeah you're you're kind of honoring the thing. I suppose. But also I'm I see like like it being drinking I'm like you you're really just overdoing it. A little performative. Yeah a little bit a little bit. But you know I also like doing that you know it's like you see a hipster typing on a typewriter in a coffee shop you know asking what's the what's the Wi-Fi password? Yeah me. That's a perfect equivalency. Yeah so I think that it's fine. I think it is uh as a drink I think it's just okay I've never really been a tea fan. I'm a fan of coffee. I like the I like it's a little more robust I prefer that flavor. I have acquired that flavor. Sure. More than others. So for the drink I'm gonna consider it as a part of this. Okay. But for the plant itself it is a tree that I think is worth I think it's I think it's worth a good review. It's worth good rating because it's a plant that gives so much to everything around it. Except for anything else but humans it gives to birds gives to humans. I can't think of much else that it does. Sure. It doesn't really jump out of me to be a big gorgeous beautiful plant that creates this huge big gorgeous canopy or anything like that. It's not like an endemic habitat for this specific centipede or something. Yeah yeah exactly. It's kind of like uh it's like the road of dendran and we're like you walk by and you're like oh that's a pretty flower and you're like okay now you're just like in the way everywhere all the time. I can't walk through the forest right now. That's fair. So it's not that I have anything gets road of dendran it's not that I have anything gets your mate. Yeah. I like that it's a holly. I like that this is a non-poke holly. Mm-hmm. And I like that it's a holly because I'm like a hot what? Totally. Whenever I learn something that's like in one regard is something I know very well that I hate and then in the other regard is a very interesting plant in some other way. I'm like that is what a weird what a weird family you guys. Yeah. So for that reason I'm going to give it a I feel bad but I want to give it just like a 6.8. Okay. Because I'm like you don't you don't do a lot for me. That's okay. But I kind of dig it sometimes but even the things that I dig I don't like personally. Yeah. I like that other people like it. You just like that they exist. Exactly. Yeah. I like to watch it on TV. Sure. And that's and that's about it. So here's an armchair quarter back when it comes to your bimosa. Exactly. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I really appreciate that. It's just fine. Yeah. 6.8. A 6.8. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Because if I went 6.9 everyone would have had to respond nice. Sure. And I didn't think that it deserved that. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Fair enough. It's a plant it more so that you can go find it in the forest and give it to those plantations. Great. Okay. That's my thought Alex. Well. What about you? I've got I've got a great analogy I think. Oh okay. I love that this is a I'll start with the plant itself and then move on to the tea. Okay. Finding out that the Urba Mate this like very like to me in the past has been like this exotic drink. Yeah. Yeah. The only people I knew who drank it were like a women I had crushes on who like traveled to you know studied in Argentina for a semester and Bono. And Bono who is also someone I have a crush on. So finding out that this cool like alternative tea drink was like a holly tree. It's like listening getting really into like flamenco music. Okay. And everybody's like this guy's great. This band is awesome. And then there's this artist. And his name is like Gustav and you're like oh and he's from he's from Germany but he's a he's a superstar in the flamenco scene. Okay. Okay. You know it's like oh this really cool delicious earthy teas like a holly plant. To me. Yeah okay so the dichotomy you you don't dig it you're more like that's weird that doesn't flow. Yeah we're like oh that's interesting that such a such a big South American drink would be like we have I saw a holly yesterday in Portland Oregon. Yeah. Yeah. I just think that's kind of interesting. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I can't tell if you if that's a positive interesting or negative interesting so I mean this is good. This is good stuff. I feel pretty neutral about this. Okay. Oh okay. The rest of the tree fine. Okay. Yeah. It's pretty utility. You didn't like the flowers which I'm a little upset about honestly. True. And even a holly berry. I'm like that's fun. Yeah. You don't like holly berry. I didn't know fruit. Yeah. I thought she was good in the Star Wars. She was in Star Wars. She was Catwoman Casey. She was Catwoman. That's right. Yes. Olly berry was Catwoman. Oh my gosh. Yeah. She was in a bunch of other things too. Yeah. But I you know I feel I feel pretty indifferent about the plant itself now the tea. Oh. I don't like you don't yeah you haven't even finished yours. I finished mine like a week ago. And I'm okay with that. Mm-hmm. Like I think it's I think it's fine. It did give me a bit of a buzz caffeine buzz. Yeah you have been off caffeine for three weeks. Yes I've been drinking decaf for a few weeks and now I feel like I need to go to the emergency room. But it's great. And I think the flavor is let you know it's pretty earthy and even among teas I'm not a fan of this particular tea. Okay. Okay. But I'm also I'm like you where I'm not much of a tea drinker. I prefer coffee. So but I will say this you said it was a laxative of sorts. Yeah. Yeah. My stomach is grumbling. There you go. So perhaps send it out. We'll have a little surprise at the end of this episode. That's what it sounds like. It's you taking off. Okay. Your rocket ship. From the propulsion energy. Exactly Alex you get it. So yeah I love that this is I'm the same about as you Casey I love that this is important to other people. I'm not one of them. I'm gonna give this a six point five. I love that this makes me think that the name of the show needs to be that's gourd for you. Perfect. Get out of here. What is it? The same is popular kind of funny day where someone says I love that for you. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I feel like. I'm worth thinking like. Yeah. You're Monté. I love that for you. Cool. Gourd for you. Yeah gourd for you. Well that was our review of the Gourd herb Casey. Gourd for you. Casey it's time for our completely arbitrary AMA. Oh right my favorite part of the show. Yeah I like this one too. It's from this one is from Addy. Hi Addy. And Addy says hi guys. I love the pod. Thank you Addy. Thank you. I'm inspired by Casey and I've started collecting cones around the National Forest I work in. So far I have a couple cones from Western white pines. A cone from the white bark. Some hemlock cones. And a ghost gray pine cone. Nice that's excellent. What a good what a good start. I haven't acquired jars for them yet and some of them are pretty pitchy. Yeah. So I have them outside on my porch until I can get jars. I've noticed that when it's rained the past couple of weeks all the cone scales close up. Oh yeah. This is absolutely fascinating to me and I'm dying to know why that happens. It almost feels like the cones are alive. I love that. How does this work? This is great. Great question Addy. Great work. Also continue on your righteous journey. You're never going to regret it. Casey, I knew that cones opened up when they got warm. Yes. In fact, one time I wanted to open a cone. I put it in a frying pan on my stove. Wow. Okay. And it worked. Yeah, it does. Yeah. I'm not surprised. That's part of a fire adaptation as far as I know. It is it can be. It can be. Correct. So what I did not know that cones would close back up after already having opened. That's right. This is like a sea anatomy or something. Yeah. Okay. I like that. That's a good example. So what's going on? This is great. I got also give a shout out to my friend Scott who had brought this up to me a couple of weeks ago. Not in a way where he was wondering what it was. He was making a bit of a joke about having a weather cone and you have a you have a cone and you set it outside. He's a it's a Jeffrey pine. And when you set it outside in the sun, it opens up. The reason that it opens up in the sunshine is because it dries out and the cone scales dry out. Not necessarily at different rates, but they dry out with a different amount of moisture that is retained on either the top or the bottom of the cone scale. The reason this is important is you have essentially two layers. Let's say the top and the bottom. Now I'm saying essentially because there's not really a like I it doesn't really exist is like, you know, a layer here and then a distinct layer here. It just happens on the outside of the cone scale. If you're looking at a cone and it's closed up, the sides that you can see, those will dry out and shrink as wood does when it dries. It tends to shrink. So they will shrink and as they do, they open the cone because they are getting smaller while the inside that cone scale that is attached or that kind of closes in next to the axis, the technical terms would be add axial, which is the top side and ab axial, which is the bottom side. Okay. Or the side closer to that central axis and the side further away. Okay. Because you can't really say the top and bottom. It's not very clear exactly what you mean by that. It's kind of front and back almost. Exactly. And you're like, okay, but front to one is when it's closed, it's when open, right? So when it's closed, the outside is what we're talking about. That will start to dry and it will start to shrink, which will pull open the inside or the entire thing because the inside is still saying about the same length. So imagine just as anything, if you have if you have one side that's connected to another side, you just have two layers of something and you shrink one of the layers, the outer edges will start to bend towards the thing that you're shrinking. Sure. Because it's getting pulled because the literal fibers are drying out and going kind of sucking up together. So because of that. It's almost like flexing or something. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you end up getting that outer bit that's intention that opens and pulls that cone scale open. Shortening the space in between. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. I get it. So this is what happens when a cone dries. So you leave your weather cone outside on the porch and you put it in the sun. The sun is going to dry the outside. It's going to force the scales to open up because the outside dries quicker than the inside. And then boom, you get yourself a nice open cone scale. Okay. Then as soon as you add in moisture, then that wood starts to expand again and it does the exact opposite. So it's sitting on your porch. Your weather cone gets hit by a new bout of rain. That rain will suck into the wood into the moisture. That moisture will suck into the cone scale. And then it will as it is getting absorbed, those fibers will expand back out again. And then they will push the cone scales closed that when they dry, they open prior. That is really odd. Yeah. And I think the reason it's so odd to me is because once it's dry, I guess any wood can absorb water. Yes. And it is woody material. It is. Yeah. 100%. Okay. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. So all it is doing, it's not like you can have kiln dried wood and that kind of thing. But any wood that you allow water to get on, it will absorb a little bit. It may not go all the way to the very center of a wood. Like if you have a log or something. Sure. Sometimes it will, especially if it's a little bit older and starts to get some decay and some fungi in it. But if it is a brand new piece of wood and it dries during an entire summer, then it gets wet again. The moisture will go into the wood, but it doesn't necessarily penetrate all the way to the middle. There's a lot of little tubes and holes that it has to go through. It's not necessarily a sponge. But with a small scale, you can have just those outer sections get a little bit of moisture and then they will expand. But they're the things that are intimately involved. Those fibers in polling as they dry to open the scale. So if you add a little bit of moisture to that little bit of outside, then they expand back out and they close again. Interesting. So I learned something new today. Yeah. There you go. So that is the big thing. That's how cones will disperse themselves. It's how they open. They have to get hot and warm and then they open up. What you were talking about with serotonous cones, the fire adaptation, they're sealed shut with like sap or something. And it takes really high temperatures to get them to open to melt the sap or something. Exactly. And that would be the fire. And then when they get the fire, then the open themselves up. Thanks, Addy. And if you have got a question for us, become a completely arbitrary, Tremium member over at arbitrarypod.supercast.com. You can go there or our Instagram has a link to it in the bio. Become a Tremium member, tab over to AMA and ask a way Casey clap. Wow. That's me. Okay. Yeah. It was really. That was a very good clap. It was ringing in my ears. Yeah. As I do. Every time I clap, I think. I wonder how Casey's doing. Oh. I'll see him in 12 hours. I'll see him some time very soon. I hope everyone else thinks that too. Yeah. I'm sure they do. You think anytime anyone sees a baby crow, they're like, what are Alex's? Yeah. Usually I usually do. That's great. All right. Thanks so much everybody for listening to completely arbitrary. And we will see you next week. Goodbye. Bye. Completely arbitrary is produced by Alex Croson and Casey Cloud. Our artwork is by Gillian Barthol and our music is by Aves and the Minivanes. If you want to support this podcast and become a Tremium member, head over to arbitrarypod.supercast.com. Thanks for listening.