Yadim Carranza + Darian Darling | Building beauty culture from the underground

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Today, we have guests that I personally know very well, and I personally worship. My guests today are actual beauty experts, and they collaborate together. They've been friends for a very long time, and I'm going to let them introduce themselves to you guys. So I would like. Yadim, can you do me a big favor? Of course. And brag about your friend, Darian Darling. It's my pleasure, yeah. So this is Darian Darling, everyone. She is a makeup diva, glamour girl, multimedia artist, New York downtown it girl, party animal, I mean, all of the above, champagne guzzler, blonde bitch. I mean, yeah, look at her. So Darian is someone that, in my view, has impacted pop culture and nightlife for so many years. She always challenges herself to push into new directions, into new ways of being an artist, and I'm just so proud of her growth. And now she's here in L.A., and she's the L.A. girl. Darian Darling! Darian, can you brag about your friend and collaborator, Yadim? Yadim Carranza. Yadim Carranza, one of the top fashion makeup artists working of the last decade. Done everything, worked with every fabulous pop star, model, magazines, fashion houses, just has such an amazing aesthetic and point of reference for beauty. And it's always, like, so outside the box, but still so beautiful at the same time, and is just, like, such a pleasure to know and work with. And it's just, like, a dream. Okay, so since we focus on collaboration, and you guys have worked together in many different ways, but just to give context to anyone listening, how did you meet? When did you meet? Where did you meet? Be as literal or as scandalous as you'd like to be. Well, I think you remember meeting me before I remember meeting you. Oh, the shade. The shade. Oh, yes. We both worked at MAC. You worked at the Soho store, and I worked at MAC Pro. You tell the story about how, I guess, you came in, and, you know, MAC Pro was kind of, like, where the really seasoned employees went to retire. So it was, like, the really, like, cool people that were, like, too cool to work in retail, but, like, weren't going to get promoted further for whatever reason. Or, like, was for people that were at a higher position that wanted to, like, retire. Went and worked there. And you tell the story. Apparently, I was a bitch. Yeah. So, so, Darian didn't like me. At least that was my perception. I mean, keep in mind, like, you're right. I feel like that store was where people went to when people, MAC was just, like, we don't know what to do with them. Yeah. They hate customers. Were you just, like, going in as, like, a customer, or were you assisting a makeup artist or what? You were probably there for, like, a training, right? I was there for a training, yeah. Oh, as an employee. As an employee, because I worked at MAC as well. Yeah. And, you know, for me, I mean, I knew that Darian, at the time, was doing all the face charts internationally, like, company-wide. Can I stop you for a second? Because it's, Darian's face chart work is iconic. For people, I'm a makeup geek, so I know what that means. Can we, because we need to hear the story of you being a bitch to him. But I need to pause really quick. Explain what a face chart is, one of you. What does that mean to anyone who might not get it? So, a face chart is, like, a blank template of a face on a white piece of paper. And it's, like, a. It's like a coloring book, almost, for makeup. So, you are able to illustrate a makeup look on this piece of paper. They use it in a retail aspect. But in the context of what I was doing at MAC was that every six weeks, they would come out with a new collection for the season with colors. And so, I would see the stuff maybe, like, eight, nine months before it would launch. Because, you know, cosmetic stuff takes longer than you would think. And I would get, you know, the lab samples of all the colors. All the different shades. And then, kind of, create looks. So, your artwork on these face charts was sent globally to every employee. Yeah. And it was on the websites for the fans of the customers, blah, blah. So, like, how do you use this new collection? And what are some ideas? Because, see, this was before social media. It was before anything. So, for customers to get a sense of how to combine these colors, use these colors in interesting ways. And I remember before I started doing it, they were, like, very excited. So, I started doing a free editorial, which is fierce. But, you know, because the employees also had to wear the looks at the counter. So, you know, if you're working at a Dillard's in Ohio, and you have some, like, green sploosh in your eyebrow. But, you know, not everyone at MAC is, like, super fierce, right? Like, they can pull off that look, right? So, I tried to make my looks, you know, still, like, New York and high fashion and editorial, but in, like, more wearable. Yeah, accessible. So, you walk into MAC Pro. You see Darian. You already know who she is because of her face charts. Yeah, I know who she is. But also keep in mind, like, in New York at that time, the people that worked at MAC Pro were kind of, like, superstars. Yeah. Really. For the brand. Kind of legends of the brand. Like, you, Marla Belt, obviously, who ended up going to work for Power Breath. And, like, all these. Starlight. Lady Starlight. I mean, all these, like, people that now have gone into, like, their own respective fields in really incredible ways. And so, when I went in there, I was, like, meeting a celebrity. I was, like, oh, my God, you're Darian. You're Darian Darley. Like, you, not only that, but what you just said right now, that you made the face charts globally and that everyone had to wear some of those looks. You were actually designing looks for everyone to wear at MAC. Like, I never really thought about it that way. It's crazy, right? You were literally, like, saying these are the looks everyone's wearing. Did I get paid for it? No. So, I was just about to say you would think that that would happen, right? But, like, unfortunately, it was, like, you were lucky. You were fortunate. I was fortunate. You were lucky that we've chosen you. Yeah. But it's still fair. Anyway, we won't go into all that. So, Yudim, you walk in. You know who she is. I'm starstruck. I'm, like, this is the Darian Darley. And I'm, like, so excited. And I think I even waited for you to help me because I was, like, I want. And I had, like, a list of things I wanted to buy because it was, like, maybe my first time at MAC Pro. She was just, like, what do you need? I'm trying to check my MySpace. What do you want? Yeah, like, what? Like, and I was, like, you know, all eager and excited. And I think I even said, like, oh, I'm friends with Frankie. And you were, like, oh, are you really? Like, and, I mean, I didn't, I didn't, at that time, I didn't think, like, necessarily she was, like, that nasty. I was just, like, oh, whatever. She's over her. Just not as warm as you want. But then that eventually, so her and I share a mutual friend named Frankie Boyd who's now also. A major makeup artist. Yeah, a major makeup artist. And Frankie and I became very close friends when I was working at the, when I first moved to New York and I was working at the Soho store. And during that. That time, I was moving around a lot. I had just moved to New York, starving artist. I was, like, you know, initially living in Brooklyn, then East Village. And I was literally living in the projects in Harlem. I was renting a room from this older Puerto Rican woman who was schizophrenic. And the room, it was like a mattress on the floor situation. Fierce. Like, it was really, really shady. Sexy. And I was basically, I mean, she was obviously on, like, welfare. So I was basically paying her entire rent by renting this one room. Well, that's kind of you, though. Yeah, fine. You know, and, but eventually I was, like, I need to get out. I need to get out of here. Like, this is really getting to me. And so, and I finally had gotten, like, a good job. And I was, like, looking for a roommate. And Frankie was, like, oh, my God. Like, Darian's roommate just moved out. Darian needs a roommate. You two should, like, room together. And I was, like, oh, I'd love to. And I think Darian was kind of, like, oh, God. No, I know. I was just, like, I need a roommate. And, like, another makeup artist. And, like, we know, you know, know each other sort of very casually. Yeah. So, anyway, we ended up meeting and talking about living together. And then we did. And it was, like, two years. Two years, yeah. For you, what was the first time that you, like, saw Yadim's work and you were, like, oh, fuck. There's something happening here. God. I mean, because when I met you, you were working at Makeup Forever. And you were, like, the national artist. So, what does national artist from Makeup Forever mean? You're, like, the face of the brand. Like, repping the brand in, like, media. Oh, wow. And, like, you're doing training. I was doing their education material as well. So, I was, like, their national education manager was my title. Which, I mean, I was way too young to have that title. I was like 23 or something. Yeah. And what happened is I was at Mac and like some woman just came in and scouted me and I was like done. And I just faked it till I made it. I had no idea what I was doing. I just pretended I did. And somehow I weaseled my way in there. And it was also the first time that I was making like decent money. Like I was like, oh, I'm actually not starving anymore. I mean, at 23, that's crazy. Yeah, it was crazy. So you and you, by the time you met him or you, he was already doing that. Yeah. When we moved in together. But mind you, at this time, like I wasn't working editorially. It wasn't like there was no Instagram. So it wasn't like we were like posting our work or anything. Yeah, it was. So I don't think at that time, I think it must have been much later until you saw one of mine that you were like, oh, that's really cool. I mean, I do remember after we moved out and got our own places. And I remember you did it. I remember you did Amanda Lepore's makeup once, but it was like all that Guy Bourdon like blush. I forget, which I had never seen on her before. But this was, I don't know, like 2009, eight something. That was really fabulous. What's so crazy is I listened to you. If anyone who's watching this, listening to this, Darian and I live together. There's stories I've never heard. And I know you better than maybe anybody. Also, I'm like hearing buzzwords I've never heard before. Like, what kind of blush did he do on him? Guy Bourdon, he's like a really a famous photographer and all the models. What era? 60s, 70s. Yeah. And it had all like the pink blush all around the eye. So he did Amanda's makeup, but that was the first time you're like, oh, fuck something. It was all this like over rouge doll like girl, women in like bikinis. Like you'd know the images. Or like Darian. You'd know the images if you saw it, you'd immediately recognize it. And yeah, I think like at the time, like Amanda was probably another like first kind of. Celebrity, right. That I, that I got to work with. And, um, and I, and she was also the first person that was like well-known and famous that let me do her makeup. And so there was a period of time where I was doing her makeup like every week. Yeah. Did you just like meet her out or? I met her. This is really funny. Amanda Lepore is like a gay nightlife icon in New York City. Needs no introduction. Yeah. If you don't know who she is, you're probably listening to the wrong podcast. So at Mac Soho at the time, sometimes when there'd be like freelance gigs available, they would post it in the back. Like, oh, gig, you know, call this number. Whatever. And there was one that said, uh, makeup for Caswell's video in the East Village. Yeah. Caswell, gay rapper, New York City. Yeah. Also known as Feminem. Oh my God. I've never heard that. That's hysterical. He's a dear friend and I adore him and he's amazing. Um, so I, so it was to assist who's someone who's now still my very dear friend named Danilo, Danilo Omo. So I just showed up at this six floor walk up in the East. It's in Alphabet City. It's like shithole of an apartment. But at the time it was like so cool, you know? And, um, and I, I go up there and Caswell opens the door and he looks me up and down. He goes, great. You can be my boyfriend in the video. So he cast me as his boyfriend in the video for, in the, it was for the song, um, all over, all over your, all over my face. Yes. Yeah. It was that video. And so Danilo, who was the makeup artist for the video. No, I don't have an assistant. Who also, by the way, had a crush on Caswell. Like a long standing crush on Caswell. This is the tea we're looking for. Vivid. No. Vivid. I could just see the face. He was like, he was so upset and I didn't end up doing makeup, but I met Amanda that day. Shut up. And I, and, and so because being Amanda that day and I started slightly, maybe quasi dating Caswell for like a month or two, didn't work out, but we were like, are still friends. And so we like just hanging out with him and going out to the clubs all the time with him and Amanda and the crew. And then Amanda and me just hit it off. And, um, and she was just like, oh my God, if you don't want to come to my makeup and I was like, are you joking? Like, I can't believe you're asking me, like you've never even seen my work and started going to her house and doing her makeup and it was fab. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Um, I have to give credit where credit's due. Morgan, who's producing this podcast for me, wrote this question and it's really good. I think it's really, uh, it can apply to all types of friendships and collaborations. So Morgan's shouting you out cause this is a really good question. Did your chemistry come from a shared aesthetic? Or from surviving the same industry nonsense? I think more shared aesthetic. And when we, cause you know, when we moved in, we didn't really, we only like really just met. Um, and then we realized we loved so many of the same things. We really bonded over our love of Madonna. Of course, that's like a huge, that was huge. Um, and I think, and I think I surprised her with how much I actually knew about Madonna. Cause I was like obsessed. Darien is. If you, if you, if Darien likes something, you become an encyclopedia. It's obsessive. Yeah. Which is why you're such a great makeup artist and such a great creative director because your references are so deep. So if you're going to claim to like Madonna, you better. Yeah. I mean, I knew like every quote from every. So we're just like geeked out and like watching all the music videos and the movies and, and then we just, yeah. I mean, we, I feel like when we lived together, I mean, we did obviously go out quite a lot, but I think my favorite times were we would just like watch TV all day and like fun, you know, kikis at home. She also introduced me to a lot of films and like shows that I had never been exposed to. My apologies. We watched. I've been through her. No, I loved it. We've all been through her education. Well, no, every movie and TV show that she likes looks amazing, but most of them are unwatchable. I love it. I love it. So that's why we get along. Yeah, because I am a total like obsessive film and like TV and show buff. Like I. Same, but I like that to be good. This one, as long as it looks good. She's like, what do you mean? That was the best movie ever made. I'm like, I'm such a visual person. I was like, yeah, there was some script problems, but look at how it looks. Yeah, there was holes in the story, but who cares? Did you see that outfit? Do you have any memories of like what would have been like the, besides Madonna? She introduced me to Xanadu. I mean, thank God someone had to. Someone had to. What an iconic, incredible. I have chills, honestly. It's so amazing. Yeah. It's so amazing. Yeah. Isadora Mars. Isadora Mars she introduced me to. Alias. Alias. Well, yeah, that's actually great. That's actually good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Alias and oh, so many. Do you remember the first time that there was like a proper collaboration or was that much, much later in your friendship? That was later. Later. But I think, what was it? Like maybe when you got your first contract. Yeah. And it was. Maybelline. No. Maybelline. Yeah. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. unless she thinks that people love it. So if you follow this podcast, what do the old school YouTubers say? Like, subscribe, and follow. If you do that for me, then you will help the unfamous message of the beauty of the art of collaboration reach more people. So please do me just a cute little favor and follow this podcast. asked and share it and do all those fun things. Bye. Okay. So then like, just, this is actually not even for people watching. This is like, for me, I'm just so curious. So then you get this job as what's international makeup designer, such a glamorous title. And then, so you say, I need new face charts. I want to hire this brilliant woman. And the brand came to me and said, we really would love you to do face charts. And I was like, I don't do face charts because I know my strengths and like, putting makeup on a face chart is its own work, its own art. Like it's really an art form and you have to know the different texture, the way makeup lays on paper is very different. I mean, you really have to be a painter, really like an illustrator painter to do good face charts. And I'm not that girl. Like I knew I wasn't that girl. Like I'm, I could be the face, but it's very different on a canvas. I got a flat canvas and I just like, there was no other person to. Suggest other than I was like, I know the perfect person for this. What, how beautiful of like you going into Mac pro and you're like starstruck by the face chart designer who was not getting paid for it, but you're starstruck by her. She's a cunt to you, but then you become, then you become friends. I don't think I was that, but let's just say you were, cause it's a better story. Okay, great. Thank you. And so then, so then, but then how beautiful, then you guys are friends now. So when you got her the job at Dior, how long have you been friends at this? Uh, I was already work. I was, we had already lived together. I left Pat in 2010. And when did you guys meet? 2005. Gotcha. So five years later, like after what a beautiful full circle moment of like, no, you're actually going to get credit and paid for this amazing skill that you have. How did you develop a skill? Cause obviously you're great at putting makeup on someone's face, but how did you, was it just at Mac by just doing it? No, I mean, I've always been drawing and paint. That was like my favorite thing to do as a kid. And I, you know, didn't have a lot of friends. I always spent most of the time either looking at myself in the mirror or drawing or dressing up as Madonna, perfecting Madonna makeup on myself all day. Yeah. Um, so I just always loved art class. That was my favorite class. So I was always drawing and painting and using different things. And so when I got hired at Mac and that was a requirement to do face charts, I just sort of excelled at that. Darian has this way of adding shadow and shading, to a flat piece of paper that literally brings the face to life. It pops out at you. It's like crazy. I've never seen anything like it. Well, and your guys is cause right. That's, that's 2010 now. That's longer than I remember. So it's 15 years of you guys working on projects like this. Is there ever been like, what was like one of your favorite moments? Like the, like the biggest, like, oh, we really slayed and two part question. What was like, was there ever like a, you weren't seen eye to eye? No, I don't think so. Well, you know, cause then we had like a very, you know, every time you would get a new contract, it was like Maybelline, you brought me in as a face chart. I mean, for Maybelline, not only did I bring her in as a face chart artist, she actually designed a new template for Maybelline that the company, which Maybelline, if anyone doesn't know, is the like largest volume mass makeup brand in the world. Like it's part of L'Oreal. It's like, it's such a huge brand. So for Darian to have the opportunity to design the face chart template, that's going to be used globally for the biggest makeup brand in the world is like a big deal. Pretty fierce. Pretty fucking fierce. Yeah. And they use that. I mean, I don't know if they still use it. I'm sure they still use it. Ad nauseum they used it. Like everywhere. Also, which I think is so beautiful. And I, as someone who gets interviewed a lot and everyone just endlessly asks me about being a huge homosexual, I don't want to talk about that too much with you guys, but I do just want to point out in this world that is oddly just so upset with trans people for no real reason that like people don't even realize like the face chart template for the largest makeup company in the world was designed by a trans woman. Like it, a trans woman, like influencing and a homosexual, the two of you working together, beauty for cis women all over the planet. This isn't new. It's never, this has been, this has been as old as, as humans have been here. Trans people have always influenced the art, have always influenced cis society and culture and beauty and art. And, I mean, it's just, it is what it is. It's fabulous. It's, it's really, it's really fabulous. So then, so if there was never a moment where you guys disagreed, which is fabulous and amazing. We never disagreed, but like, obviously we worked together in designing the looks often. Like for example, when I was working, when I had my contract with Maybelline, um, Maybelline sponsored New York fashion week at the time. And so a lot of the shows that were done at New York fashion week were sponsored by Maybelline. And so Darian, I would have Darian come to the show and work on the show with me. So she'd see. She'd see. Yeah. Yeah. That, I mean, that was, uh, when you got the gig and the face chart was one separate thing, but you're like, bitch, I need you on my team backstage. And I was like, Oh, I don't really want, I'm stopped doing makeup because I just like, I don't know. I did all that when I was at Mac and like assisting other makeup artists and whatnot. And it's just like, the experience wasn't great for me backstage. And I think there was a lot of like transphobia that was like, happening. Yeah. Um, there were some makeup artists that were really lovely to work with backstage, but then like the people in charge of like booking me for shows too, were kind of, um, there's some, I think some shade and, um, I just wasn't really like a positive experience. And then, so I basically like stopped doing makeup and you were like, no, I need you on my team. This and that. And thank God you did because otherwise I wouldn't be here now because, and it was so great to have that experience with someone. That I love so much and respect so much and know so well to be in that kind of environment and not feel like you're a big, because half the time you would leave a show and be like, Oh, I'm the worst makeup artist. I'm like the biggest piece of shit. Cause the key makeup artists are just like tech error. Um, so like, even with you, if like there needed to be something tweaked, you'd be like, Oh, maybe just like add a little more to that or, Oh, that looks great. Or just a little more just you here. And it wasn't like, what are you doing? What are you doing here? Terrible. So having that kind of positive outlook on that kind of experience, I really like got me like, Oh, maybe I should do makeup again. Yeah. But I sort of lost my confidence completely. I feel like there was a time right before that where I remember you told me like, I don't think I want to do makeup anymore. Like you were kind of really over it. I think, I think it was a number of things. I think it was, it was, um, it was working at Mac for so long in that environment, which is an absolute blessing. But can also kind of make you a little jaded after a while, you know, I think it was also, like you said, rampant transphobia. And I talk about this a lot with, you know, our mutual friend, Nikki Monray, who's, you know, also trans and a makeup artist. And I think the industry pretends to be so inclusive and cool and like under, you know what I mean? And all that and celebrates and allyship. But like in actuality, I mean, I think it's starting to inch its way to a better place, but like really for a long time, it wasn't. And like Nikki would often tell me, and I'm sure you, and please let us know. If you experienced this as well, but Nikki would often tell me, um, I feel like people want me at their parties and they want to show me off, but they don't want to book me because they're scared of what the client's going to think or like what the, you know, designer is going to think or what, you know what I mean? They're scared to like be seen with them. And I'm like, that's just so awful, you know? It's, it's, I mean, I see it all the time in the music business where the music business wants to celebrate, Ooh, look like so-and-so is a star now. And it's like, but you guys, you're really not, you're not doing the numbers. So, so there's like three openly gay pop stars. And now we all have to like celebrate amongst the there's, there's 3000 pop stars in the last 20 years and three of them are gay. And you think that we like slayed like that. It's fucking exhausting. So when you guys are both building beauty, trans woman, queer person, you're both literally like architects of beauty. And yet this, the society and the society is like, why are men talking about makeup? And like, why do trans people even exist? Like, how does it feel to like be architects of it, but also like, it's technically not supposed to be for you as far as like mainstream society is concerned. Oh God. Such a good question. Um, I mean, I think I'll start. I think, I think that this narrative that this technically is not supposed to be for you is a lie. I think that's the lie. And I think, I think these narratives and, you know, this misogynist patriarchal oppressive system that we live and work under, and that will continue, unfortunately to live and work under for the foreseeable future. Um, I think, I think that narrative is actually the lie. And the truth is that we get to write our own narratives. And one of the things that I find so fulfilling and compelling about working in this industry is that I get to play, hopefully, I hope a small part in breaking those narratives and showing different narratives and showing different possibilities. I'm also Mexican American. I mean, I grew up in an area, you know, that was like all, you know, my, all my cousins were cholos and gang members and like, but there was a beauty aesthetic that is actually now really being celebrated by designers like Wally Chavarria, Luar, you know what I mean? Like this, like this Latino American aesthetic that It's like such a specific aesthetic that for years was found, I mean, That's not part of, you know, cis, het, white beauty standards, you know? And now, and so there's opportunities because of people like Willie and, you know, hopefully people like Darian and hopefully people like me and you that get to start challenging these narratives and presenting a new idea of beauty and a different standard of beauty. And that is like, honestly, I have chills again. Honestly, to me, like there's nothing more fulfilling as a makeup artist than the ability to move that needle forward a bit. Well, and what I have enjoyed so much about this conversation that's not done, that sounds like I'm wrapping it up and I'm not, don't you dare. Don't go anywhere. Is that like for me, right, like being so, luckily I was like so happily queer so young. I had never, I had shame for like a week and a half. I don't know. I just like got so lucky and I just like, once I came out, I was done with like any drama. I think you're, I know you kind of the same too. You came out really young too. 13. Yeah. 14. Yeah. That what, but the examples of queer people slaying, it's so, there's so many different ways that we have influenced culture besides being the famous person. I really wanted to be the famous person for a very long time and I'm really glad it didn't happen for me. But I think what's so important about like a conversation like this of like, look at how you guys are impacting culture, even though to a lot of people, you're not famous. You're unfamous, right? But to people who- Thank God. Thank God. But to people who love beauty, who love fashion, you guys are really important. You know what I mean? And that is where like to, as always, representation is so important and this and that, and that phrase gets overused right now and there's so much drama about it, but it actually is fucking real. And I don't just mean like representation. What annoys me about that conversation is like, we always just talk about famous people, but like to let- LGBTQ people and people of color know that like, we're slaying in ways that you're not seeing and you should strive for those jobs too. Don't just strive. And I do love beauty influencers. I actually am a fan. I follow a lot of them. But like, don't just strive to be the beauty influencer. Strive to be a beauty architect. And like that to me is like- Actually influencing. Yeah. Which you're actually, right. What you guys do is influencing the influencers. And then the influencers- The influencers, like a year later are telling their- Or a pop star or an actress or- All of it. Fashion or whatever. Yeah. It's like actually having influence as opposed to like, not to be shady. Yeah. You can be shady. You're not famous. You can be shady. You know, I hope that a lot of people listening to this are people who are trying to like learn about collaboration, learn about finding their own way through whatever. Fucked up industry they're trying to find their way through. Do you guys remember a moment together or apart when, when, before you broke, before you found the success? And I know that question is always funny because I feel like I'm, I'm still looking for success. I feel like I'm just getting started in my career. I feel everyone feels that way though. Cause like, what is the idea of making it? Like, what is that? If it's, I don't think internally you'll, I don't feel like I've made it. Right. But if someone on the outside would be like, oh, of course you did years ago for that thing or whatever. But like, it's such a, like, it's, it's, yeah. I think that's, I think there's milestones and there's many milestones. Yeah. Well, and also I think when you're a creative person, like truly creative in your heart, you've never made it cause you're not done. Yeah. I'm not done. Right. Just cause I have hit songs. I haven't made it. I'm not done. And no matter what hill you climb, when you get there, you see another bigger Vista that you want to get to. Or even just a different Vista. I was just saying it can be completely different. It doesn't have to, it doesn't mean necessarily climbing up the same hill. To another height. It could mean, let me try a whole new hill. Yeah. That I never thought I could even get into that has nothing to do with what I'm doing now. Maybe like, it just, I think that's part of like the creative process. When you touched on a moment when you were saying like, before he brought you into the Maybelline orbit, you were kind of done. Yeah. Do you, and then like through his encouragement and your guys' collaboration, you kept going and now you're killing it even more. Do you remember a moment for your, cause I have a moment that I'll talk about too, of when I almost quit. Do you, do you, do you ever have one of those? Many times. It was more when I first moved to New York because the first year and a half of living in New York was really brutal. I was surviving off of cheese slices and like Big Macs with no meat. Cause I was a vegetarian at the time. And, um, and I was like, which is just cheese and bread and a pickle. Um, I was just broke, broke status. And I like once a month had to call my mom. To like beg her for a hundred dollars or like somebody to help me complete my rent. And it was just like a lot. And then I, when I, you know, I had to move from different places a lot for numerous reasons. And every time I had to move, it just was so overwhelming. And I was just like, oh my God. Like, and I just remember many times thinking like, I just have to go back to San Diego. Like, I don't think I can survive this. I don't think this is for me. I don't think I can do it. I don't know if I'm good enough. Right. You know? And then there was also many times throughout, even when I started doing well, where I'd have a really bad day at work or really stressful or worked with a photographer. That was just nasty. Yeah. At the end of the day you go back to the hotel room and you're just like, am I even good? Like, what am I doing here? Who do I think I am? There's all these, that I think level of insecurity. And I still have days where I'm like, am I actually a good songwriter or am I just like really cunt and people like to hang out with me? Like, but of course I'm a good songwriter. Like, sure. People like to hang out with me in the room, but like the fans don't know that I'm cunt. They don't know I'm going to exist. The fans don't even know I'm alive. They just hear my song, you know, like, but I think that that is like. Such an, we were talking about the other day of just like the imposter syndrome sometimes never goes away. There's some weeks where I'm like. It really depends on the day and the shoot and the this and the that. Cause like, yeah, some days you're like, oh, I'm really fabulous. And other days I'm like, I am trash. What am I doing? Yeah. I think the days when I feel the most fabulous, if I'm honest, is when I'm not equating my worth to my work, which is very hard to do. I don't know how to do. It's very hard to do. How do you do it? Cause I literally don't, because I feel like, especially when you're an artist, right. Maybe if you're like a CEO or something, you're like, it's just a job. It is what it is. When you're an artist, it's like, but my job is my hobby. Like what I love is fucking music. So it's so hard for me to not equate my success to my worth. How do you, how do you do? I'll tell you how, how I found a path. To it. Um, I'm sober and before I got sober, before I got sober six years ago, my life literally imploded and I had got, I'd burned so many bridges at work and like, just, just ripped my career to shreds in this process of a completely insane downward spiral into severe addiction. And in that process, like right before I got sober, no one would work with me anymore. I lost every client and my biggest client Gucci at the time, I had just signed a cosmetic contract with them, like a million dollar cosmetic contract with them. And, and they literally sent me like a lawyer sent me papers being like, this is done. Um, cause it was really, I mean, it was next level, brutal, like, whoa, you know, rock bottom. And, um, and because of that, I had to, uh, finally admit I had a problem as well. Go move back to San Diego because I had nothing left. Like I just was like. At that point, I, I had even, I was living in my friend's place and all my stuff was in storage because the apartment I was living in wouldn't renew my lease. And I was working so much at the time still with Gucci that I didn't have a chance to get a new apartment. So I literally had nowhere to even live. And I was like, I guess this is the universe telling me like, go back to San Diego and go to rehab. And so when I went to rehab in San Diego, um, I was like, I mean, I was suicidal. I was like, everything I worked for is gone. Like I'll never work in this industry again. I really truly believe I'd never work in the industry again. I didn't see how there would ever be a path for me. Reconnect or like build my reputation back. And not only that, but I was also so mentally unstable at the time that I was just like, how am I going to stop using drugs? And I ended up going to rehab. And during the process of getting sober, when I still, for the first year of sobriety, truly believed that I was not going to work again, I had to find a sense of self outside of work. Right. And that taught me. Right. How to disconnect my sense of self because I had to, I had to discover, okay, like I'm, I'm, I may never work again. I may never work again. I worked so much, like blood, sweat and tears and like all that New York, you know, moving there and all this stuff, everything I worked towards is gone. It's just like ripped from under me. And it's, and it's no one's fault but my own. Right. And now I'm here. And what now? And I had to find a place within myself where I can say like, I'm still worth being here. Yeah. Regardless, because, because we have innate worth of just being, being a lot, anything that exists, just existing has innate worth and value. And I didn't know that until then. I didn't know that. Right. You were like, you were forced to learn it. Well, I, I, I truly believe and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think anyone who is overachiever or like really strong ambition, it comes from oftentimes the place of pain. Right. Oftentimes it comes from it. And maybe not everyone. I don't want to speak for everyone. I can only speak for myself, but for me, it came from a place of pain. It came from a place of proving people wrong, proving to myself that I'm worthy, proving to myself that I have a place in the world and something to do in the world and then contribute, which I don't think is a bad thing. Yeah. If that's all the worth is, is what I can produce. Yeah. then it can be negative. And I think that's what actually led to my addiction. And a lot of like the issues that I had was that I couldn't, I couldn't separate my sense of self and identity from what I produced in my work. And so all of my mood and sense of self was on this rollercoaster ride all the time. I'm like, it's a good work week. It's a bad work week. Like I lost the job. I'm going to kill myself. I'm doing great now. I'm on top of the world. Like it was up and down. And so when I'm at the, you know, at the mercy of people booking me or what my last job was like, that's not a great place for my emotional self and my sense of spiritual self to be. And so I got to get to this place of finding real self-worth underneath all of that. And then, so now obviously reconnecting to the industry, I have that in me and I remember that I know how to connect to that. What I relate to so much and what you just said was that I, so much of my, I'm one of the biggest overachievers I've ever met. So much of my overachieving, I know, it comes from, I'm going to prove everyone wrong. And like, I was bullied so bad. And what I always say I'm so grateful for is that it didn't, the bullying, like it, in some ways it never like, it never destroyed me because I just kept going, I'm going to do something great. I'm going to show you. I'm going to show you, I'm going to fucking show you, but I'm good. It was like out of spite and revenge. Which I'm grateful for because I slay, but you can't build your whole life off of spite and revenge. You can for a while, I think. And it works for a while. It's a great motivator. Yeah. But at some point, once you do achieve some version of what you wanted, once that you can, I know for a fact on my hometown's Wikipedia, I am the most famous person to come from that fucking town. But that doesn't actually make me happy. It is like fun to be like, fuck you, stupid bitches, shut that school system down, but it actually doesn't bring you happiness. So it's so inspiring and beautiful. You know, I hate that you had to hit rock bottom to find that. I love that I did. But how great that you found it. I love that I did. Do you know what I mean? It was such a blessing, honestly. Like you, you kind of, we all need to, you want to hope that you learn the lesson that like, I'm more than just my work. Right. Um, but maybe you, sometimes you have to be forced to learn that lesson. I have to. Yeah. I mean, I know we talk all the time of like, when she, like, if, if a celebrity client cancels just because their schedule changed, it has nothing to do with her talent. They're just, their week of shoots got canceled. It's hard not to like feel bummed. And it's like, we have to, at some point, not care. When we go into this, like, you start thinking about the last time you worked with them and it was something that I said, it's something I did. Would I wear something they didn't like? Did I look at them? You just think that there's so many variables. Oh yeah. Did their schedule actually change or someone else? Yeah. Who knows? I mean, it's. Yeah. It's that was, thank you very much for being that vulnerable. Cause it's, it's, I think it's important for everyone to hear. Let's go a little bit lighter. Thank you for going heavier though. I very much appreciate you. Um, so I'm going to do a segment in every episode of whether it's, if the person's a musician, it's songwriting. So I'm going to do a segment in every episode of whether it's, if the person's a musician, it's songwriting. I'm going to do a segment in every episode of whether it's, if the person's a musician, it's songwriting. I try to set some boundaries for things I know going to be good for me or fun are there at this point of things that you're like i can't i can't do that i'm not looking for you to spill tea or say names but just like yeah yeah i mean i think like it's just people that you vibe with and like or just like some job that's like maybe it's going to pay or maybe it won't or it's like what's that going to do for me like i don't need to do that yeah um or just you know i think it's such an intimate experience working with a client um you have to like the person yeah so if it's like i mean obviously if you get booked on some kind of shoot with someone that you've never worked with before and they could be great they could not be great and um that's only for a day but you just know never to work with that person again but most of you know i don't really have like really bad horror stories of like horrible experiences thankfully that's good you do things that you like won't certain types of jobs you know like i just can't do that anymore yes absolutely um i have this thing where i have to um i won't engage in a behavior for very long or like do something for very long that doesn't fulfill two of these three things that doesn't bring me joy is it harmful to me or is uh is it not harmful to me and is it not harmful to others ah so like as long as two of those three are there um i won't i i can't keep myself doing it for very too long like i have to have to fit in there somehow yeah and especially they're not harmful to others i feel like that has to happen yeah what can you explain that like what do you um for example i will i work with a brand that i know has um you know maybe some shady history or like right doesn't got you know what i mean like you know for whatever reason like has had some like shady stuff or scandal or something like that's not for me it's harmful to others and yeah will also be harmful to me so like that's an absolute no you know what i mean and so like yeah and so i i so i obviously like does it bring me joy sometimes we have to engage in jobs that don't necessarily bring us the most joy in that moment but like it helps sometimes it's still a job obviously there's times where i get i get booked for a brand that maybe or like a company that has you know an incredible amount of money that maybe does have a scandal but like uh the people are lovely and i you know what i mean it pays me well and like you know we have you can take care of your family our families right i'm you know mexican i say to to young writers all the time whether they're signed to my company or not just like you just have to decide what the goal is though like if the goal is to just have hits so that you can have financial security just fucking go to work if you have if you are mentally blessed enough or financially blessed enough from your family or whatever that you just only want to do writing sessions that you love that's a different conversation but like if i'm going to mentor you or help you we have to decide to do it in a way that's not going to help you and that's not going what the goal is are you here just for hits and just go to fucking work yeah so when when i i don't know about you guys but i get asked by young songwriters or even young pops trying to be pop stars all the time of like what's the advice what's the advice and for me i'm always just like work harder than you've ever imagined but i know for some people that's not a healthy way to do it do you guys have advice that you ever give to young people asking like how to because both of you are young and you're young and i think that's like the mystery of like how the fuck do you even get in there right like how does this even start so is if people ask you guys for advice what would you even begin to say i think if you're young you do just have to like say yes to everything because you never know what it's going to lead to what kind of connection you're going to make from it um and i think that's important when you're starting out is to just like do everything assist everyone do all all all of it yeah and see what where you land and like what kind of like genre of the makeup world that you like doing yeah because there's so many different you know there's fashion there's red carpet there's celebrity you're yeah and what's your voice and what's your aesthetic and like you might not know what you're best at until you get in there and try it like yeah i just assumed i was meant to be a rock star i actually didn't realize i'm much better at helping other people tell their stories and i would have never fucking learned that if i said if i was like no i'm not gonna write a song for someone else ew i'm the stupid i would have not i won't i wouldn't have the life and the creative fulfillment that i have it's like you do have to say yes especially when you're starting to everything sure and just like working with all assisting other makeup artists that have a different aesthetic than you like that's so important because you're learning every makeup artist is different they paint a certain way they like certain things different products different aesthetics and so assist like as many as you can that kind of you can cherry pick different things and techniques from all these different people and then make it your own yeah you know i think that's really important yeah i mean i would say to young people that first of all i want to say that i think some of like i hate to be this like the old lady like the younger generation but i really do feel and i've noticed this it's like i've had direct experience of this that um because of how much the landscape has shifted and because of how much culture has changed because of social media because of all development for very young people that like oh i all i have to do is get like instagram famous and then i'll be i'll get to this you know be makeup artists of the world yeah and unfortunately like that's just not going to bring you the skill set necessary to be a truly architect like you said right of the beauty world or of any industry like it's just not enough it's not well i was looking at i mean i look at your instagram all the time because you're amazing and we're friends but i was looking at last night because we're about to do this and i was like this is i swear this is a he only has like 30 000 followers fucking gucci maybelline dior valentino and there's only 30 000 followers and that to me is so fucking beautiful and i'm fine with it and you should be yeah i swear in my life it's a compliment of like no like the amount of but you the skill set that you have that does not involve the internet yes is what actually makes you an architect of beauty is what actually makes you a successful leader of the whole fucking beauty division i'm just never gonna be that girl i i just it's not in me like i i've tried it a couple times i'm like this feels so inauthentic to me to be doing that kind of content and like pumping out how to's and content and videos like it's just not me it doesn't come naturally to me yeah it comes naturally like like harren parsons i i could never do what she does is she the natural she talks to her phone like it's a fucking stadium and she loves it yeah she she revels in it you know and like i just feel like i'm not gonna be so awkward and terrible in that situation like i don't like it yeah and i also don't like selling things to people like i don't want to have to sell we did that already like i i rather just like do great work and let it speak for itself and like that's what yeah yeah well and also how beautiful that you have both busted your asses that you don't have to be just selling shit on your phone you can actually just be creating you know whether it's face charts or or doing actual makeup or whether it's the stuff you do with brands or on celebrities like you have paid your dues that you don't need to be talking to your phone and if you love talking to your phone that's different like erin does it and she loves it and it's amazing and the great thing about erin as well is that she actually has the real world firsthand experience of working in the trenches of fashion and beauty so like she is a true expert like like like you said like follow her like go check her out because that is an influencer that's so good at that portfolio that part of it yeah but that also has the goods to back it up yeah and i think we need more of those yeah you know what are you guys last question before we play that stupid fun game what about because i think as collaborators we like we don't hype each other up enough it's like you get so used to working with that person that you like don't hype each other up enough like what is it about each other that you love working together like why do you think it works so great when you guys collaborate on something i think we just speak the same language and we totally under i understand what we speak in reference so like even if like you know we haven't done this in a while but like when i was assisting you on like a campaign or a show or something and you can just like spit out like some obscure reference and i completely understand what you're talking about and what to do yeah yeah there was a there was a gucci show that she worked on with me um years ago when alessandro was still at the brand and we were in the south of france in this town called arles experience incredible this town called arles and um and one of the look like alessandro was like i would do something kind of punk heavy metal on someone like on this one specific um model uh just like play around and do something really like kind of like metal rock something and i was like okay so i went to darren i knew darian had to do this look i went to her i literally just said that i was like i don't know something on the forehead that's like heavy metal slightly kiss slightly punk and like i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know and i just literally allowed her to like go off and that's probably one of the favorites my favorite looks that i did while we were at gucci and it would have been impossible without you like you literally contributed so much to that moment and it was such an incredible but it was such a collaboration too because you know i was executing the makeup because obviously there's you're when you're on a show like that you know there's so many models there's so many you know you can't possibly do every makeup um but you know i'd start doing and you'd be like, oh, I like that. And like, maybe fill that in with this and then do that. add some that there and you know it's such a you know yeah collaboration yeah it's very rare you're gonna ever have a good collaboration without trust it's like why collaborate with that person you know it's every good song I've ever written it's like even if it was just for three hours we trusted each other you know hopefully you have a long-term writing relationship with that person you trust each other for years but like you're not gonna write a good song if someone like doesn't trust the other person's taste level for that three hours you're just yeah it's impossible it's impossible okay so um here's a fabulous fabulous game that our friend Morgan invented that I wholeheartedly approve it's called gagged or dragged okay so I'm gonna list an example of something and you guys just you you each have to say is this a gag do you love this or drag it's terrible okay like not like drag queen like dragged this sucks drag yes great okay okay okay um um wearing birkenstocks to set I don't know how we got to this place I feel like we've given up on society I really don't hate it drag drag yeah 100 percent um graphic liner that is so sharp it could wound someone oh what's gag gag horse gag yeah the best gag okay great um having to do a full body beat down on someone before 7 a.m like body makeup drag I mean that's kind of my bread and butter these days so I'm gonna say um yeah we love her she's paying the bills baby we love her um clients who say do whatever you want and then panic most of the time clients don't know what they want no no one knows what they want no one knows what they don't want yeah right celebrities doing makeup tutorials with four filters on I mean listen you better be putting a filter on this what's a what's a current makeup trend you can't wait to end any kardashian based beauty look I'm just it's just like give it a rest yeah already like it's over it's over it came we saw it yeah it's gone yeah and people are still holding on to it so much and trying to keep it going and I'm like girl like give it a rest what what I find so interesting and the kardashians are a big part of this but the amount of makeup trends that were invented for kardashians are a big part of this whether it was drag queens or trans women people assigned male at birth to appear female that then like the conservative cis head community is still wearing like you realize that whole thing that you're doing was inspired so that people assigned male at birth could look like women whether they want to look like a woman for the night or every day that is what yeah you're not only the face but also the surgery oh my god that you're doing to your body affirming care that's gender affirming care and you're wearing a fucking mega hat yeah that's great like what so true like really a wild thing to wrap your head around it really really is but that being said i do miss vintage boob jobs they were oh my god amazing yeah they were much more exciting they're much more canyon gap oh the grand canyon gap so good what we're gonna name the title of this episode the grand canyon gap is there anything that you think that we haven't said about collaboration that you think people should know and if you say we've said it all that's fine too i i know i know something um one of the one of the strengths that i think darian and i have in our collaborative relationship is that we can always be honest with each other right and if she for example back in the day when she was doing the face charts if a face chart came that i was like i was never afraid to hurt her and she would never have her feelings hurt because she'd be like oh she just okay she wants it to change so it's not taking things personally yeah you so a prerequisite of being honest with each other is not taking things personally yeah and knowing that that that feedback or whatever critique or change that has to be made is not coming from a place of like malice or shade it's coming from a place of like we just want this to be better than it is now we can do this we can do better than this like let's figure out a different way um and i think that's been really yeah important and you kind of have to like learn that to not take it personally and just sort of learn like what i said before you know no one knows what they want until they see what they don't want so you just have to like do things and like they this is just what it is but be prepared to get notes yeah you know whether you're a writer whether you're anything notes you get notes yeah so you have to be able to take them in a like healthy way and i think what like about like having a long-term collaborator like you guys are like many of my co-writers are is that you don't take it personally because you really respect that person right right there's an element of respect and trust and you're like like like if you say to her this chart isn't my fave you're probably like i don't want to speak for you but like oh i trust yajim he's probably right let me fucking change this or it's not even about being right or wrong it's just about for this specific project it's not right for this yeah it's not right for this moment and also like i think another thing that i've learned and i've i probably learned this from working for and with people that weren't good at this and i realized what i didn't want to do is that i tend to i really love to lift my collaborators up with me like i want my collaborators to be known for what they contributed to the project um any assistant i've ever had has gone on to do really great things and we're still good friends and i want to be i want to like embrace that and embrace them and i'm proud of them which is not the norm it's not the norm necessarily and so when darian does projects with me like i want her to be i want it to be known that she worked on that i wanted to be known that she did that face chart i want to be known that she contributed this you know what i'm also i love about what you just said is that you're not you just said so much is that like i think so many times when we are trying we're on the come up and people do shitty things to us a lot of people once they get the power they want to redo those shitty things they want to continue the cycle that's the norm that's the norm no like once you get the power you fought so hard to get the power change it change it be fucking nice celebrate the change that you're i mean it sounds so cliche but like truly be the difference yeah i love it what is that what is a makeup what does a makeup do a makeup do is do whatever the fuck you want i think like be bold as bold as you want to be or as pared back as you want to be but just make it a strong look a strong choice i just believe in a strong choice i love it um and it could be bad but in a good way i mean i love so bad it's good that's my favorite kind of good it's bad i love it yeah i love it i think just don't be afraid like it it's just makeup it comes right off like play do be obsessive explore do your research like know your reference going get into references like if you really want to work or be an architect of beauty or fashion you have to learn about the history of it um otherwise it's just you're only recycling what's happening i mean some people kids today that is like anything happened prior to 2009 they couldn't care less and they don't even know let alone we're all walking around with supercomputers people don't know that madonna did truth or dare and brought ambition to her they literally don't know about it it's crazy it's like this is a huge a huge contribution to beauty and fashion i love it be intentional know your reference and know your history know your references and i my my wrap-up um could be something funny about like don't overdo your contour at at noon but i think you should actually i think that'd be fabulous um is actually what you said at the end of like if there's no point to have collaborators if you're not going to respect them and like uh being constructive criticism is okay but uh deconstructive criticism is gross as fuck if they don't have collaborators if you're going to treat them like shit that's crazy thing to do watch unfamous on spotify subscribe for no ads i'll see you there have you heard that mcdonald's spicy chicken mcnuggets made with spicy tempura and a blend of aged cayenne are back remember to grab a few extra napkins for a limited time at participating mcdonald's