Wrestling: How to Love & Lead Your Spouse with Kurt Frisbee

(upbeat music) - Access more. - I'm reading in Deuteronomy where if we obey the Lord, then fields are gonna be blessed. You're coming and goings are gonna be blessed. Your wounds are gonna be blessed. And I'm like, Lord, I'm holding on to that promise for Maddie and Maddie's holding on to this promise. Like how do we wrestle with the fact that we're not seeing this yet? - Hi, I'm Jan Harrison. Welcome to "Ruted Podcast." This season we're going to talk about wrestling with God. My hope is that you will be able to discover that we don't wrestle against God. Him fights us in not to break us, but to draw us closer to himself. Let's go to this week's conversation. Today I'm super excited to welcome a friend to "Ruted and Have a Conversation About Something" that I am gonna guess is not a very common conversation that comes from the heart of a young man. So I am thrilled to share a friendship that I've had over a number of years, but a couple of years ago, I was on a bus and met. He and his wife for the first time, we were traveling through the, I'm gonna call it that outback or the mountains outside of Mexico City on a mission trip. And we began to have a very deep personal, intimate conversation that had to do with a struggle that the two of them were encountering early in their desire to begin to build their family. I am welcoming my friend Kurt and asking him to just catch me up. I've missed all the things that God has done in the last few years. So welcome, Kurt. - Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here and it's funny. I don't know if you remember how that trip started off, but two things, one, whenever I ask, hey, what type of closed, Maddie and I need to bring, someone who is helping coordinating, we're like, hey, you need to bring just some stuff for warm weather, some stuff for cold weather, some business casual things. And so we show up with these things. - Some of everything. - A little bit of everything. So we show up with these two monster suitcases. And everybody else is like, has these small check on bags with just a couple shorts and T-shirts. And y'all gave us trouble. The whole time as we were waiting to check in our bags. So we felt like-- - Sorry, sorry, believe me, I've been the guilty party checking a big bag many a time. - No, so that was fun. Y'all gave us a hard time and it was humbling. But yeah, we were in Wohaka and I remember the conversation because we were really just catching up on really since we met each other in 2015 and had journeyed for a season together. But it had been years since we had had a conversation personally. And I think that was probably the first time we really had an intimate conversation like we did on some of the stuff that both of us had gone through over the past few years. And that he and I were in the thick of a transition season. But also in the thick of a season of just really wrestling with an infertility journey that you knew about through quarter, you had some encouragement. But I'd love to talk about that and catch up and we're counting our conversation too. - I really, really appreciate that. You know, I'm gonna be really honest about the generational difference. When I had children, these were not the things that people talked about. And so a great deal of suffering and sorrow and questions and doubts went unspoken. And it was not only very tense for couples, well, for the individual, the man or the woman and for the couple, but for the people around them too. In those years, I've also had just the honor and the privilege to walk alongside some people very close in my own life and still want to learn how to be that voice of encouragement, be that friend, be that mentor, be that prayer partner, give words of hope, be able to just listen. So I consider this today to be an opportunity for many of the listeners here to begin to learn more in a context that may not have touched them personally, but it's touching people all around them. And for those that it's touching personally, I'm so thrilled to be able to hear it from a man's perspective. So let's go. - Well, thank you so much. And it's one of those things that really, it kind of catches you off guard. Like you said, it's just something that really is not talked about too much. It's talked about more, I guess, than it was years ago, but especially amongst men, this conversation, I hadn't been privy to in the past. And so whenever we get married, it's kind of like, hey, when are we gonna have our first kid, when are we gonna have our second kid? And you start mapping your life out. And it may or may not have been easy for some folks around you. And then whenever you start to, you know, months turn into years, you start to have a lot of questions. Questions as a husband, questions, you know, as a desiring mom. And so Maddie and I had a lot of the wrestle. And that really opened the door for us to realize, hey, we're not the first person's going through this. There's other people. But like you said, there weren't a lot of tools and resources. And so most of what I'm learning is an active learning too. - Which is the best kind of learning, derias, right? - No doubt, in the middle of it right now, through experience. And I'd love to answer any questions and even start. 'Cause I think whenever we first met, we were probably two years into our journey of trying to get pregnant. - I feel like when we first started to talk about it, it had been long enough that I could sense that there was an anxiousness about the reality that this does not just happen on cue. - Absolutely. - So about two years that you were married and you, of course at first, wanted a little bit of time together. I'm assuming. And then you decided, okay, we'll start our family. - And we got married a little bit later. So I was 32 and Maddie was 31. And so it was-- - That's really not very late. - It is really not. I guess to our siblings. And so we, a year in, we're like, oh man, like we want to have multiple kids. We're going to start trying. And that can so see y'all be in like, just sees awesome parents and build in a family. I'm sure it was part of how you knew you were right for each other. - Oh, definitely. And so we had those conversations early on in dating and specifically for Maddie. She's like, my greatest desire in life is to be a mom. Like she just felt such a call from the Lord. She felt like that was going to be a huge part of her ministry. And in mind to you, I remember like, I don't know if most guys feel like this, but I'm like, growing up, I just dreamed of having my own family. And taking the kids to a sporting event or showing up to a recital, whatever it was, I was so excited about that. So as we started dreaming together, that was, yeah, it was really sweet to dream only to be met with some pretty significant disappointment. Did you ever go through any of that struggle whenever you were first married or were you able to get pregnant pretty easily? - Pregnancy for me was not a challenge. So that really, I mean, everything didn't always time out. Like said that it worked out. We had four children, nine years apart. I mean, nine years from oldest to youngest. And that sounds real even, but the first three were like in right at five years. And then the fourth one followed. Like almost four years after. And so the timing, you know, one time I looked up and I'm going to parents' weekend in college, back to school night in high school, parents' night in middle school and parents' night in lower school. And I was like, oh my word, the timing of my family has me everywhere all the time. So, you know, it didn't always work out the way I thought it would, but I never, I never faced that what if I can't have children? Which is very, very, I would say devastating. - Yeah. And that was, so whenever we met, you were right in the sense it was that disappointment was starting to turn into discouragement in that season of just, you know, struggling for two years. And there were, there's also the wrestle that happens in there where I really felt like, and Maddie did too, like God had shown up in so many ways to encourage us that we were going to have children. And you're trying to just like, you're trying to wrestle, it's like, hey, I'm, I'm reading in Deuteronomy where if we obey the Lord, then fields are going to be blessed. You're coming and goings are going to be blessed. Your wounds are going to be blessed. Like, how do we wrestle with the fact that we're not seeing this yet? Or people, you know, we had some wild stuff where after a miscarriage, somebody reached out the next day on just the brink of really feeling like we were starting to lose hope. And I talked to this person in probably over a year, and they were like, I had the weirdest dream last night. And it was a guy. He was like, I had a dream that I was at your house. And it was you and Maddie and y'all had multiple children there. And it was just like that timing was encouragement. So across the two years, you know, friends praying, people reaching out that multiple people having dreams about our babies that weren't even in close proximity with us. And so here we are, you know, in the world. Holding on to hope. And starting to feel hopeless, though. Yeah. So that's a great tension. Can hope live right on the brink of hopelessness? Is that the way you would say it? Like, is it possible that you feel hope? You cling to it? Yeah. And yet it sort of just slides right on towards what do you do when that's going on? I think we experienced that. It's the passage of scripture as like hope deferred makes the heart sick. And I think repeated disappointments can lead to discouragement. And so it's like, oh, I'm disappointed that this isn't happening in our timing. I'm disappointed that, you know, we started really, we went to after about a year to get some medical help and get some opinions. And it's like, hey, everything looks good medically. And so just feeling just like this is unexplained in fortilities what they said. Okay. And so we're feeling disappointed. So that's a term, a diagnosis. So it is that they will leave you with is unexplained infertility. Yeah. And so it's like, everything is good from, you know, a physical standpoint. So that's the good news. Don't have a reason for this. And honestly, like one of the crazy things that happened in this too, which I'm super grateful for, Maddie is, she was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis probably a decade ago. And whenever the symptoms hit, like she was in the shower, couldn't lift her arms above her shoulders, just really just pretty debilitating around her joints and things like that. And she had been on a pretty strong medication for, you know, a decade. And so she starts doing some research, you know, into unexplained infertility around what you eat in medications. And so there's a lot of question marks out there. And so she really was like, I am going to be super conscious about what we put in our body. Jan, it will, I come home and like everything that I'm using is getting changed out. It's like the healthiest version of toothpaste, like laundry detergent that smells like dirt and all. Or deodorant that may or may not work. And I'm like, Hey, I'm okay with this transition, but we got to make sure that like we're using some stuff that works here. I'll stick with the chemical. I need to be clean. I need to feel clean and smell clean outside of that. But it was cool because okay, were you kind about it like that? Or did you finally get where you were like, you've got to take your tree hug and stuff? Absolutely. Sometimes I was like, I'm drawing the wine. But she is persistent. Okay. Okay. And honestly, as much as I scoffed at the beginning, like she found out that some people had been able to live symptom free from RA by a gluten free diet. And she didn't feel like she had the resolve at first or the discipline to modify just like her life for that degree, yet to that degree. But she jumped into it. And like we started watching not only her RA symptoms, Wayne, but she stopped taking medication and hasn't had any RA symptoms since she stopped ingesting gluten. Oh, wow. And so I became a believer through that. It's like, Hey, there are some stuff going on in the environment and what we're eating and what we're putting on that impact this as well. But I say all of that to say like, we're in the thick of, hey, whatever we can do on our end, if it's unexplained, like we want to just like make sure we're partnering in God with this. And so that was the first step. And so the other thing that, you know, kind of the 2.0 of that that I'll share is Maddie, you know, is starting to look into it. She's like, I feel like we need to take the next steps medically, whether it's I UI or IVF. And I was opposed to that. Oh, okay. Yeah. I was opposed to that. Because I think that's a great question. I think I know now, but at the time, I would have said like, Hey, this, like if God wants to do this, he'll do it. This is, you know, a lack of faith where I'm not trusting or even a feeling like I'm taking this timeline into my own hands. Like, those are conflicting questions for a person who believes God's told them, you will have children. And yet, there are no children. Absolutely. And I'm like, you know, hey, are we going to be like Abraham and Sarah, like, you know, 80 whenever that happens. Right. Like, okay, Lord, but I don't want to be an old parent. Well, and there was, I didn't even recognize this until after. But one of the things, Maddie processed this in a way more the way that she processed was healthier than it was for me because it's easier for me to just like kind of say, Hey, God's going to do this and not really wrestle with the emotions that I was really feeling, right? Hey, I, I believe you're going to do this. Let me put my head down and distract with everything else going on. Okay. So maybe I'm not sure. Yeah. You might call that our tendency. Sometimes if we've got a lot of church, not, not, not just knowledge, but sincere commitment to the word to the truth if we're very rooted. But we can bypass the emotional part of things and just make it spiritual. 100% from having to dig around where it's painful. Absolutely. And that was like the journey that I was, you know, I was choosing because it was easier than really wrestling with it in the way that Maddie was in a very raw and real and authentic way. And I was probably even guilty of having the charge almost shame to admit this. Like, hey, I think that we need to have more faith instead of being present and really like wrestling with those emotions. And it was actually in a church service that this pastor was sharing. And I felt super convicted. And God started to just untangle some of this for me. And he was really talking about Hannah. And we show up. This, you know, message is about Hannah yearning for a child. And automatically, I feel like I'm in the crosshairs. All right. Praise for impact. This is, you know, for us. Yeah. And he wrote the pastor honored just like Hannah's prayers. And he specifically called them like a trivailing prayer where it wasn't this pretty bow of Lord, we believe you're going to come through for us. Amen. It was this wrestle, this, you know, this gutterhole yearning and tears and like the exchange that Hannah and the Lord had in these moments was one of the most God honoring prayers that you could pray. And I felt so convicted because Maddie sitting here praying those types of prayers. And I'm like the polish like, and I really did believe God's going to do this. But I didn't want to process like, man, what if he doesn't? Like we said all the time, like, you know, there's the story of me, Shadrach and Abindigo of like getting it, you know, getting ready to be thrown into the fire. And this honestly was the posture of our hearts of, you know, they said, hey, God, we believe you're going to do this. We believe you're going to deliver us from this. Even if you don't, you're still God and you're still good. But there's like, I'm kind of I came back and I'm like, I'm sad. - When was that the first time you had let yourself say that? - I think so. I think I was like, I'm sad, tired, I'm frustrated. - Is this like three years in now probably? - Probably. Yeah, I was like, I'm frustrated. Like, where are you at? We've got these promises, we've got this encouragement. And at some point, like, you know, even people's encouragement, which I'm super grateful for, - Right. - Started hitting those wounds. - Uh-huh. - And so I'm trying to process all of this and watching my wife do it in a healthy way. And God invited me into this journey through the disappointment, through the discouragement, through the prayers of, "Hey Lord, I'll go through anything. "Just don't let her lose hope in you." Like, that was what the prayer became too, because I couldn't imagine. Honestly, like. - So you were covering her, her spiritual strength to not whine. And she's sort of covering, I don't have covering, but you all are meeting each other. She's meeting you in a place of raw emotion and truth. And you're just making sure she doesn't lose faith. - Absolutely. In vice versa. - Which is the beautiful thing about being a couple. - I couldn't imagine. - Two become one. You were becoming one in such a true way. - And we look back and we say, we're so grateful, relational of going through some hard seasons at the beginning of our marriage, because of what you said, that us becoming one and really leaning on each other. And so, yeah, it was painful and looking back. It's beautiful, but there was a wrestle. And so one of the things that you kind of alluded to that I recognized I was wrestling with was a religious spirit around what our pregnancy journey was gonna look like. And so as we started talking about IUI and IVF, I'm like, well, God, that's not the story that I wrote for my pregnancy journey. I don't know if you ever had this conversations with God. - Well, yeah, but I, yes, I've had them not over there, but I've had them like this is not what I envisioned things would be like. And then all of a sudden you had wet, like a light bulb or a. Yeah, it was a moment where we were in our apartment in South Asheville. And it was at nighttime and I was on the back porch and I was like, I was praying and my conversation was like, Lord, I don't want to do IUI or IVF. I feel like the story that I've got envisioned for my life and my pregnancy journey will give you more glory than this other version of the story. And I really felt the Lord tell me, Hey, I want you to lean into Maddie's desire for IVF. And like I'm wrestling in this moment and I'm like, yeah, but I want this, this was my retort. I want this baby to be birthed in intimacy. And I felt the Holy Spirit say just because it's not through sex doesn't mean this baby isn't birthed in intimacy. And then I felt the Holy Spirit say, I can do amazing things with unconventional pregnancies. Look at Jesus. And that was the moment for me, or I was like, all right. - Okay, so I've got to stop right here and just say, first of all, I am so blessed because I hear something that I know is true from my own life. And I say it often if given the opportunity, God speaks personally to you. And he meets you wherever you are. And I just love that you just so clearly shared. God spoke so personally to you. And he confirmed it with his word. - Isn't that the best? - Yes, it's the best. And it's real. It's as real as if you and I are talking right now. - It's as real and it doesn't mean that sometimes you don't doubt that. - Right. Especially whenever you're a year down the road and we jumped into the IVF journey and our first IVF journey was a failed IVF. And so it's like, man, God, I feel like I heard you speak. There was this excitement. There was, you know, this is the answer. - This is the answer. And then what do we do with this? And so it was the next iteration of allowing ourselves to really mourn. Go ahead, you got it. - Well, I do. - I can see the wheels turning. - Okay, so you've had A miscarriage. - Yes. - And you've had now a failed IVF. - Correct. - And I mean, I just know a little bit from observation that's meant all kinds of appointments and timing and hormones and physical demands. And then I'm just thinking about the ending things, particularly for Maddie. - Yeah. - Amudes and swings and just physical, mental, emotional, all of it, colliding. - Yeah. And the one thing that I loved and this is, you know, Maddie was really intentional about this and watching her walk through just this journey of even, what we were doing on our IVF journey worship. So whether it's taking the medication or us, you know, traveling to see a doctor really like, it just became this thing that could be painful, could be taxing mentally, emotionally, physically, just flipping it on his head and just say, "Hey, if this is what it takes for us to, you know, partner with the Lord and meeting our little baby girl or our little baby boy, like, we would walk through this fire a thousand times." And so, I was grateful for that perspective but I'll go back into the disappointment. We were like, "Well, we really walk through this fire a thousand times because like, okay, so we really started processing again." It's like, "Hey, Lord, if you want to do it naturally again, if it's IVF." And so just like you said, we had witnessed God, you know, and it's not just in this, it's in everything God wants to speak to us. Whether it's through his word, whether it's that still small voice, whether it's through the community of believers around us and somebody sharing a dream that you hadn't talked to in a year, God cares to intersect. And so as I started asking God why, which was also, it's like, "Hey, Lord, if you're telling us that we are going to get pregnant, here's the, the wrestle, what do you want to speak into where we're at right now? Because we don't want to make this an idol." And I felt like that was one thing that, I don't know if you've ever been in a season where your prayers become so singular and it's important and you care about or whatever. And this was taken up the lion's share of our time. - You're obsessed. - We're obsessed. And it could be, you know, considered idolatry, even though it's a good God thing. If I'm thinking about this more than I'm, you know, if it's the first thing I think about when I wake up, what I'm thinking about during the day, what I think about, you know, at night, I'm missing out on so much of this, honestly like this rich life that God has for me, even in the middle of a storm or a trial. And so I started recognizing. - That's a good word. That's a good warning for any of us right now when we, to just remember, when you were coming consumed about this one thing, you're missing the abundant life. That God has given us just, there's lots of parts to his abundance and when we get like hyperfocus. - Do you ever feel yourself doing that? - Of course. I mean, all that, you know, parents, if you're struggling with a child, you know, you can be, you can, you become so single-minded about this one thing or if you're struggling with finances, this one thing. And the other children, you kind of dismiss the other children in prayer time and because you're so hyperfocus or if it's your health, they're just anything. I just really appreciate that word. Like check yourself and your own heart and what, you know, even if it's in your prayer dialogue, what are you consumed with something? - Yeah. That's so good. Did you feel like in those moments for you that how did you become aware that you were drifting towards being consumed with, you know? - It's just what you said. You wake up every message that you hear, every conversation, you have a way to apply it to that thing that's going on in your life. It's like every, like it just becomes this over and over. hyper focus. I mean, he's got us. Yeah. He's got us and we say that, but then we find ourselves with just this like, I can't even let this go for two seconds. I mean, this is too much. So yeah. And I think that that's for me. Like, I don't know if I had this realization or I heard it from somewhere, but it impacted me. And I'm like, Hey, what if this is something that I feel like God is saying no to or not yet. And if this is, you know, what I'm praying about morning, noon, night, fasting over all of this, but there are all these other things that I'm leaving on the table that I'm not taken to the Lord. He's like, I want to answer this. I want to answer this. Like, I want you to bring your whole heart to me, not just this one area. And so I recognize that like, yeah, this was probably drifting into unhealthy for Maddie and I in the season. Wow. Okay. So you're now going to bring us to the change that began to, you've brought us to the change in your heart and your openness. And where are you? Yeah. I think that that was. So for me, I was, I was reading in the scripture and one of the thing, and I don't know if you've had a season like this, but whenever, you know, that hope deferred turns into heart sickness, it manifested in just apathy towards my relationship with the Lord. And, Hey, I believe this, but I'm frustrated and I don't want to show up in the same way. You kind of, everything becomes so internally focused that you're not pouring out as much. And it's crazy because, you know, if a pond doesn't pour out, rivers are healthy. It's teaming with life. The Dead Sea is, you know, stagnant and lifeless because nothing flows from it, right? Everything deposits in. And so I started recognizing like, oh man, this discouragement has led to an inward focus. There's not as much flowing out of my life in this season. There's this wrestle with the Lord. And I was, you know, reading in scripture and I felt the Lord speak to me specifically around the story of Asa. And in this story, you know, Asa, who is a reformer, believes, you know, God's called him to champion tearing down idols and seeking the Lord and all of these things, you know, a prophet shows up and I think his name is Ezraia, but I could be butchering that. And he tells Asa, he was like, he tells, that makes me feel better. So he tells, he tells Asa, God is with you when you are with him. And I think that that really hit me in a fresh way because it's like, I go through the, you know, the motions that, hey, God's with me. And I'll do my, you know, my own thing in this journey, especially in this apathetic season, but I really wasn't with him. And then, you know, it goes on to just like kind of highlight the verse as a part of this story that God searches the earth to and fro for one person whose heart is fully committed to him. You know, another translation said like searches the earth to and fro from for one person who is wholehearted. And this word, wholehearted really just like started just really started resonating. It's like, hey, I'm not being wholehearted. I'm not being wholehearted and the things that I'm putting my hands to because there's this wound. I'm not really being wholehearted and inviting God into every single day, every single conversation that abundant life that he has for me. I'm kind of putting that on, you know, on the table because I'm frustrated at him. And so that's where I really feel like things started to change from me. Maddie's story might be a little bit different. It would be, I'm sure. I think so. I just have a feeling. A sneaking suspicion. Yeah, because you're two very different people going through the same thing in a very different way. And so I felt just like the encouragement is like, okay, I want to be wholehearted. I don't want to waste this season. And so really, you know, we decided prayerfully that we felt like we were going to do another round of IVF. And I don't know if you've been like this, if you're in a season that's like foggy or you don't know where to go, like our encouragement was like, hey, one step at a time. Right. Like we don't have to map out the next five to 10 years so that actually don't think I have the emotional capacity for that. But just one step at a time. And I feel like I'm supposed to say this too because there's probably, you know, either somebody listening or, you know, an encouragement to myself. One of the things that happened in that wholehearted season, I had a conversation with a friend that I had just recollected. And he was really disappointed with God. And he had a mentor that said, hey, have you told God how you feel? And he was like, no, I haven't. And he was like, why don't you tell God like how you really feel? And what bubbled up out of his mouth in his quiet time was like, I hate you. Like maybe some exploatives involved seriously. And I was like, you know, on the edge of my seat, like what happened in that moment? And he was like, like God showed up in such a kind way of like if we look at the Psalms and it's like this, you know, the ups and downs. And so learning to pray like that imperfectly and in a very raw way was one of the things that changed too. So as we step back into this IVF journey, really felt like God was speaking again that this is what He had for us. And He was going to show up. And so we go and without getting into too much, you know, details on the IVF stuff, essentially we prayed, all right, Lord, we want the right number of embryos for children that you have for us. And we got one embryo. And there's this like fear. It's like, oh man, like what happens if we have to go through this again? If it's, you know, if this doesn't result in a pregnancy because it still takes a miracle. Yes. Life is such a miracle. And it gave us, you know, a really deep appreciation for that. And so we're like wrestling in the journey too of like, all right, God, like we're going to trust you. Even if you don't show up this way, we started praying through adoption. And every time we started the adoption journey, we felt like the Lord was like, no, that's not what I have for you. Wow. And so we wrestled in, we found out I got back from a trip with a group of people and I came in and I knew that Maddie was finding out whether she was pregnant or not. She told me, hey, I know you're going to be with several guys. So I'm not going to call you either way because if I'm sad, I don't want to relay this information while you're in the car with, you know, a group of guys. Yes, this is not public assumption. Am I right now? No. And like, I want to like celebrate with us. Like if that's the thing. So I come into the house and I'm like walking on eggshells. I'm like, oh, she's found out if she's pregnant or not. So I'm like, hey, Maddie and I don't hear anything. I'm a heart kind of drops. I'm like, she might be in the bed. And so I come in and I walk into the living room and she's sitting there. And the first thing that I noticed was like over the years, which had been close to five years at this point in time, we had bought, you know, one season faith or somebody had written us a letter like, I believe this is going to happen. People had been prompted to buy us diapers or moccasins or whatever like partnering with us. This faith journey of like really believing this is going to happen. She had all this stuff laid out in our living room and I just lost it. And so it was so sweet. We got to celebrate this moment. And we are I guess 32 weeks pregnant right now, which is so awesome. It is wonderful. It's wonderful. God is so good. And it's like, and through this journey, I become so sensitive to what people might be going through. Yes. And that's the gift that you've given us today, by being willing to be so open about this conversation. It's like I started this isn't something that most people are so willing to talk about. And I think there is no question in my mind that there are so many people that will be so encouraged by your words, by your truths, by your own self-checks, by being willing to admit that there were times that you weren't angry. There were times when you were obsessed. There were times when you were just over it. There were just all of the things because in all of our faith and all of our desires and belief that God is going to do what is best, He always does what is right. even when it feels so wrong at times. We believe that, but we aren't, he doesn't, it doesn't negate the emotions, the relationships, the feelings that we have to continue to work through and learn and he uses it to draw us all so much closer to him. He does. That's so good. And I heard a definition for prayer in this too and it was like, "Hey, get in God's presence, get his perspective and get in line with it." Amen. Amen. I was like, "I like that definition." And you know talking about wrestling, it is like Jacob, God in God's presence. And then he, what was the next one? God's perspective. God's perspective. He didn't even really know who he was wrestling, but I think he did. And he's like, "I'm not letting go till I get the blessing." That's it. What is it? That's it. You're right. What's it? The wrestle. And you know, whenever you first reached out and had the conversation and asked the question, like, does it take grace to wrestle? Specifically, you know, around Jacob's story and our story. And I just asked myself that question, like, does it take grace to wrestle? And I think it takes grace to wrestle well or just to keep holding on. Yes. Yes. In humility. Absolutely. And brokenness. Okay, so I'm going to close with this question. Okay. Maybe it's maybe two parts. Would you say, I mean, I know you're thrilled to pieces. And I know your heart is jumping for joy. And I know that you are full of great expectation. Do you walk with a lamp, a metaphorical as a result of this wrestle with the Lord for this baby that He has given you? Do you walk from this experience marked in a different way? 1000%. And so that's a great question. And I haven't thought about what the lamp is. So some of this might be some real time processing. But certainly marked on, you know, through the prayers and watching God come through and honestly, like him showing up is that Romans 11. It's like God is faithful even when we're faithless. I love that. And that's what encourages me because it's not on my efforts. And I want it to be in the times where he shows up, probably in the most profound ways in my life or when I'm floundering or you know, he loves a flounder and an amazing. He just loves. He loves a flounder. Kurt, what would you say right now if you had 60 seconds to speak into a listener's life that's going through this right now? I think that the part of my lamp in what I would say is just like, it's like, hey, like Jesus is Lord. Especially like culturally, like that's why presence and perspective are so important. And I had to remind myself that it's not my plan, it's God's plan. And he showed up and it looked different multiple times than I expected. But he spoke into those things too. And so being rooted in the Word, being rooted in community to help me discern his voice, being rooted in prayer and showing up to him in an authentic way, knowing I'm my humanist, my brokenness, my raw emotions aren't going to scare him off. It's actually an invitation into intimacy. He's big enough for all of that. And then that delight in the Lord, even if it's a painful season there. So Thessalonians were joyous always pray continuously, give thanks in all circumstances, finding those things to be grateful for even in the middle of a storm. Or finding those moments that you can rejoice in or find joy in the midst of your pain, it. You can tell I'm kind of. It's good. No. I mean, you're just. It's just been. It helps redeem the pain. The pain. And the disappointment. And that is a good, good God that knows how to meet us and do that. I want to close by praying for you and Maddie, you came, baby. And just thank you. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for being so open and honest. Father in heaven, we praise you and thank you that you are the giver of every good and perfect gift. And God for the gift of your presence, for the gift of your long suffering and patience and gracious kindness towards us, those have been gifts that have been more precious along the way. God for the gift of a couple that's been pressed closer to you who has experienced what it is to be one at a level that they never dreamed possible. And God, of course, for the gift of life and the gift of this baby, we give you praise, we give you thanks. For those that are waiting, for those that are searching, God, we pray that you would just continue to remind them, to root themselves in your Word, to root themselves in prayer, to root themselves in one another, encourage lifting up, covering, blessing, correcting, helping each other to be all that you have called them to be. We pray for these precious couples, Lord, that long to build a family and to bring that family into the greater family of the kingdom of God. So Father, I pray blessings. I pray your richest, richest promises of presence and peace over the delivery, over all of the things that will happen. And soon and very soon, God, their faith will become sight. And we rejoice because that is who you are. In Jesus' name we pray, amen. Amen. Thank you so much for joining me. Be sure to subscribe now on Access More, or wherever you listen to podcasts so that you never miss an episode.