Would You Date YOU? (w/ Relationship Therapist Esther Perel)

Want to watch this episode? Catch the full video on YouTube. Just hit the link in the episode description. This is a headgun podcast. I had my first session actually between a young man and his relationship with an AI. Wait a minute. Yeah. I'm so sorry. When. okay. Yes, this was my first. Did they explain to you how they fell in love with something that's not a person? It is reality. It's where we are. He broke up. After eight years, he has been in a period of grief. And he has an AI that is meant to be an assistant. And the assistant starts to seduce him. It's kind of the oldest plot in town. You know, fell in love with his secretary. Baby, we're working on some fun stuff behind the scenes. And we want you to help shape the future of why won't you date me? We put together a super quick listener survey because I want to hear exactly what you want to see. Who are your absolute dream guests? What kind of wild topics do you want me to cover? Tell me what you want. The survey could be found in the link for the why won't you date me a link tree in the episode description. Click that in the survey link will be listed at the top. It only takes a few minutes and truly helps me make the show better for you. Answer now. Find the why won't you date me a link tree in the episode description for the listener survey. Baby, welcome to another episode of why won't you date me a podcaster, me, Nicole Byer was trying to figure out why I was so single. Even though you could come on a plastic box and tell me it's a tick-tock box. My guest today is a psychotherapist and New York Times best-selling author whose work has fundamentally changed the way we talk about long-term relationships. She hosts the podcast, Where Should We Begin? And she joins us today to mark a milestone, the 20th anniversary of her groundbreaking book, "Madeing in Captivity." It's Esther Perrell! Esther, can you tell me a little bit about your. you were telling me before we started recording, but your podcast is therapy sessions with people. Yes, where should we begin in its 10th year actually? And it is basically life, anonymous, individual and couple therapy sessions, which you are invited to listen in, like a fly on the wall. But the basic experience is that the more you listen to the lives of others and the more you actually see yourself. And so the truth is these days you don't have any idea of what's happening in your best friend's relationship. They can come and tell you that they're breaking up and you never saw it coming. And everybody's experiencing this thing on their own in a rather atomized way. So the idea was how do we create a public health campaign on relationships where people from all over the world get to listen as to how each and every one of us grapples with the big dilemmas of modern love or friendship? What made you want to work in the relationship space? Like what draws you to relationships? Ah, that's a beautiful question. So I've been a relationship therapist for more than 40 years. So it's kind of probably the answers we may have changed from the time I was a teenager trying to figure out my own relationships to what happened later. But I think it's always been very clear to me, maybe because I come from a family where my parents lost everyone and everything, that relationships were the determining factor for the quality of your life. That they define the quality of your relationships will define the quality of your life. And as if you have driving meaningful solid connections, you have a sense of meaning and purpose and reason to be that belongs to you and for what you represent to others. And that has guided me throughout. And I then began to think that there is a real issue with relationships. They've become much harder. Harder to ignite, harder to start and harder to sustain. And so it just feels like the society doesn't let me change topics. It gives me more grist for the meal every time. And why do you think maintaining getting into relationships is getting harder and harder? Do you think it's like, do you think it's like, we were inching towards this, then the pandemic happened and then people were isolated and now we've got like, you know, people in relationships with their chat, G-P-T and stuff like that. Do you think technology is separating people more? It's doing both. Okay. All right. If you have a great group on WhatsApp, a friend, so lower the globe that managed to communicate with each other than technology is also bringing us together. It's not just doing one thing. I think there's a two major ways to understand this. What has fundamentally changed in the West for sure in terms of our relationships is that we used to have relationships organized by duty and obligation, by hierarchy, loyalty, community. There were major structures that told you what to do and how to behave and what's expected of you. You had a lot of clarity and you had very little freedom or personal expression. We move to the model in which we have a lot of options and a lot of choice. And we have never been more free, but we have never been more crippled with self-doubt and more alone. Because we have to make all the decisions ourselves. How do I know? I have found the right person. How do I know? This is the right time to leave, the right time to stay, the right time to commit. How do I know? And it's all on me and the burns of the self have never been heavier. So that's one of the massive shifts that has happened is that it's on me. The second thing is the pandemic. For sure has changed a lot. We were way more isolated. We've never been more connected and we've never been more unreachable. We can have a thousand virtual friends online and no one to feed our cat or to pick up a prescription at the pharmacy. We have basically have an acceleration of the virtual life that we're living. And as a result, we don't have to leave our house, to work, to eat, to shop, to exercise, to nothing, to swipe. You can stay home in this contactless world with a device in your hand that is promising to unburden you of all the inconveniences of life. And to give you very set answers for every question you have that are predictable and perfect. And then when I meet you, I bring those very expectations that I've gotten with my apps to you and I want you, my messy human, to also become as predictable and perfect. And it warps my expectation. I'm no longer able to be comfortable with the unknown, with the unexpected, with the unpredictable. And I become very, very anxious about relationships. That's interesting. I never really thought about like, you know, you're asking your phone questions. It's telling you what you want to hear. And then it becomes like predictable and then you meet a person and then you're like, ah, that person's not reacting or telling me what I want to hear. Because when I was like really deep in dating, I would like meet someone on an app. And then I wouldn't text with them for a very long time because I was like, do you want to meet them in person? Yes, because I didn't want to like, like a cloudy, what my judgment of them was going to be. I wanted to like actually meet them before I made judgments. And I guess like the advent of technology allows people to like get really comfortable by themselves and then get super scared about people. So what would your remedy for that be? When I listen to your description about going offline as fast as possible, I'm thinking about this one line that sticks with me. That intimacy doesn't come from evaluation. It comes from participation. And while we're having this moment is a massive culture of romantic consumerism in which we evaluate and we are evaluated by others and compared and being put in a formal structure and not really able to deal with ambiguity. So I want to know before I've even begun the story. You know? And that's not actually how it works. You know, dating is not an interview. It's an adventure. It shouldn't be an ordeal. And most of the time when you ask people these days how they feel about dating, it's an ordeal. They'd rather do the dishes. It's not fun. It's no sense of mystery and adventure and there's no sense that you're beginning a story. Who knows where it will end? That is interesting because I do when I was dating. I didn't think it was an ordeal but I was just like, boy, oh boy, this shit sucks. I keep meeting people who I can't seem to connect with or like the dates were bad. But like, I guess that is just part of the journey. You're going to go on bad dates. Not everyone is going to be your cup of tea. No, and then bad date is often a good story. Yes. But you know, if it's everything good. But what was it that made it like. It's that sour, that sigh, right? It's a yeah. You don't get that motion. That means I'm anticipating. I'm looking forward. I'm curious. I'm invested. It's like, that's the body language of modern dating, often. Yeah. You know, again. And I think, so why in question, when you were dating, did you go and what was your favorite format? Did you met somebody you sat across the table, you started asking a set of questions? I didn't have like a set of questions in general. No, not really. I'm trying to think back. So I would meet somebody usually at like a bar. Is that where you met the person you would now? Yes. We met at a wine bar. And I like having just like an organic conversation. I don't necessarily like start with questions. I'll pick something out that they're wearing or or something in the bar to talk about before I ask a question about their personal life. Because that makes me feel less interview-y and like more like setting a vibe like, but we can just talk. We can have a nice conversation. But the nice man in my life, it was funny on our first date. There was like a slight lull in the conversation and he went, what else? And I thought that was funny because I was like, we don't have to fill every second with conversation. And he still doesn't know even though we've been together for such a long time. But I just find that really endearing that he's like, I want to keep talking to you. So yeah. And so what made you stay longer that evening or that day, whatever? There was something about him that was whimsical whimsical in a, in a, how do I say this? He's a very whimsical person, but he's also very realistic. And I like that. Like I like that he has a little bit of whimsy, but he's also very grounded. And I'm a pretty whimsical person who's not very grounded. I'm not like tethered to this earth. I like to do silly things. Sometimes I'll just walk funny because, because I want to laugh. And I like somebody who can laugh with me and won't like judge me. Like when I was driving here, there was a lady who was jogging and you know, sometimes people keep jogging at the stoplight to keep their heart rate up. She was dancing. And it made me smile so hard because she didn't give a fuck that she was just on Los Feele's Boulevard and there was tons of cars like she was like truly doing her life for her. So I feel like I live that way as well. And I like that he is on board with that. So that's why I stayed. Yeah. I stayed because he made me feel like he was interested and wanted to keep talking to me. Or I've been on dates where I'm like, this person doesn't like me. And I don't think they want to keep talking to me. But I'm going to power through and I'm going to keep talking to them. And I'm going to win them over. Painful. Very painful. And I think that's why I got sick of dating. Yes. It's work. It's work. It's not something that unfolds. There's nothing organic about trying to make someone who is visibly not interested in board to become engaged. What is the biggest hurdle or issue that couples come to you with? There is no biggest. I think for example, there's not one. I think the work is so fascinating because it actually is not just one thing. But here's an example on the basis of what you describe. I'm whimsical. I'm more fluid. I'm more flighty. I'm more light. I don't necessarily ground myself. I meet this guy. He has a bit of that musical thing too, but he's solid. He's grounded. He has a grip on reality. At first that is really a complementarity. I get to make him become more musical. He gets to help me become more grounded. That is a beautiful complementarity. One of the main issues in relationship sometimes is that the very thing that is initially attractive because it is different becomes the source of conflict later. Because it is different. Because you get a little more of what you bargain for. If you became this, you are in this dynamic, became a problem that comes to therapy. It would look as one person says, you are not responsible. You don't keep your commitments. You're unreliable. You're constantly changing your mind. You just want to have fun. You're not able, you know. And another one who says, you're always saying no first. You don't want to really go on adventures. You have your feet glued to the ground. You rigid. You know, and one becomes too irresponsible and one becomes too rigid. That would be a problem that comes to therapy that usually didn't start as such. It started as something that was actually beautiful and quite complementary. People bring bad conflict rather than productive conflict to therapy. Okay. What's the difference between bad conflict and productive conflict? Good conflict is when people are vehemently disagreeing on something. They are fighting for what they believe, but they're not attacking each other personally. They're not kitchen-sinking and putting every dirty dish in the sink at the same time so that they cannot talk about one thing because they're talking about nine things at the same time. And the thing you just reminded me, now reminded me of what happened to us five years ago and let me get you down the hole. That's not productive fighting. They're not basically saying you always, you never and everything starts with you. And it's a blame and an attack and a defensive and that kind of a structure. And the more I'm defensive and the more I attack you and the more you become defensive and we each kind of exacerbate the other. These kind of bad loops. A productive conflict is one in which I have a serious disagreement or I was hurt or I felt let down or I felt betrayed or I betrayed you or there's a rupture, but there is a repair. There's an acknowledgement of the rupture and there is an investment in the repairing together. Okay. So how would you say you have a conflict with your partner? What are some words you can use without being attacking or getting defense? Like, do you know what I mean? How do you have a discussion with someone if you legitimately don't think you've hurt them without sounding defensive? Does that make sense? Yes. I mean, not intentionally want to hurt you, but that doesn't mean I haven't hurt you. You may say that hurt me. And instead of saying that was not my intention, I can answer and say, I'm really sorry about that. You know, I know that sometimes when I stand my ground, that is upsetting to you. It's the distinction between the fact that you feel it doesn't mean that that was what I wanted, but that doesn't mean that it didn't happen. And on your end, the fact that you are hurt doesn't mean that I did something, but that is what you feel. And basically it's a meeting of two subjective experiences. And I need to be able to acknowledge that. It's what makes it hard for some people to acknowledge that you were upset or hurt or disappointed or let down is that it would mean that I am a bad person. I deliberately went and did something. And since I don't want to see myself as such, I deny your experience. What am I supposed to say? I get it. That's kind of a very simple line. I get it. You're pissed, you're hurt, you feel like I wasn't aware of that. It wasn't my intention. I'm sorry, this is how you feel, but I can see why you would. I can see why you would. I can understand what you would be feeling. That level of validation, of recognition is really essential. When you ask about fighting, I think that one of the best summaries I've ever heard comes from this guy Howard Markman, who's a research and he says, "What we mistake is that we constantly look at what is it that people are fighting about." And then you have a long list of tough people, fight over. But if you turn it into what is it that people are fighting for, then you will actually notice that they've basically fight about three major things. And I repeat this many times because I find it so useful. People fight for power and control. Okay. Who has the power? Who makes the decisions? Who's priorities matter more? Who gets to set the tone for our life? We do what you say kind of thing. But people also fight for care and closeness. Trust. I have my back. Can I rely on you? Are you going to think of me when you make decisions or are you going to put yourself ahead of everybody else's needs? And people fight for respect and recognition. Do you value me? Do I matter? And you can take most subjects. If you keep it into what you're fighting about, you're going to have unusual arguments. If you turn it into when this happened, this is how I felt. And you say it's this. When you did X in situation, why I felt Z. When you didn't call me, when you told me that you would, and I was waiting out there on the street for to go knows how long I really felt this. Then I'm not saying what you did. I'm not saying that it was wrong. I'm saying this is how it landed on me. Can you deal with that? And then your response to me has to be about how this landed. I'm sorry you felt ignored, not seen, written on. It's these three things. People can hone in on that. They're able to have what we call productive fights. Interesting. Which one do you, is the main theme in years? Say it in respect, power and control, power and control, care and closeness, respect and recognition. So it's power, trust and value. Probably power. I like making decisions. I like doing what I want to do. But honestly, and I own it. Yes. And he, he right now is okay with that. Like it's not like a real, really fight, which is a lovely thing. Because sometimes, sometimes I'm a crazy person and I'll come at him and be a little crazy. And then he'll, he'll like go through things and be like, are you hungry? Do you need a nap? So he did, he deflects. That's a very good skill. But usually he's right. Usually I am just hungry or I need a nap or something. And when he appreciates or lets you or is fine to go along, it probably also means that when he finally sometimes says, no, I don't want to. You know that you have to pay attention. Yes. I know that he actually does not want to do that. That's right. And I've learned that if I'm going to go do a silly thing, I just have to tell him whether it's important to me. So I go, will you do the silly thing? It is actually very important. And he's usually like, okay, or if I go, I'm going to go do the silly thing. It's not important. You don't have to come to Chili's. And he'll go, thank you. I don't want to go and see no to eat at a Chili's. But honestly, I love Chili's. So when you learn how to like have disagreements with a partner, I feel like a lot of people don't want to put in that work. Do you feel like people are giving up on relationships too quickly and like getting the it can being like, that person did that one thing. I don't I don't want to continue with this. Do you think people aren't like fighting to be in relationships anymore? I think we live in a culture of premature rejection. And part of this is because we are in a consumer society and we have brought consumerism to our romantic lives. So romantic consumerism is that you're looking for a soulmate on an app. And you also are constantly thinking that they may be better soulmates as other people. So you're constantly comparing and making sure you're having the best deal. And then you measure your return on investment and you have this entire business mentality that makes people feel actually quite shitty because they basically feel reduced to products. You know, where somebody will not want to accept the good because they're afraid of missing out on the perfect. That is the consumer mentality. What's the best deal I can get? So the IK is a premature rejection. It's like it's such an intolerance to any discomfort. The slightest little thing that you do that I didn't like. You know, I take you out of the cart and put you back on the shelf. So how do you take consumerism out of dating? Is it like meeting people in person? That's for sure. That's for sure. I mean, and I'll tell you the first place you take consumerism out of relationships or dating is by not only looking at what can this thing do for me. What can this person do for me? How does this person meet my needs? How does this person fit my checklist? How does this person? You know, constantly people are asking me, how do I find somebody that? And I'm just saying, and who will you be? Oh, how about thinking for a minute about what you bring? What you offer to them, who you want to be in the relationship. Do you have a checklist for yourself? Or you only have a checklist of what you expect the other person to be for you. That is the basic of the consumer mentality. It has lost one of the most important elements of relationship, which is a cycle of reciprocity. We make each other. We don't just find something that is ready made. You know, there's this beautiful research of babies in the crib that are looking at mobiles that us. One mobile circles all the time. It doesn't matter what the baby does. It continues to circle. Well, the baby doesn't play with that mobile. The baby plays with the mobile that when it does something, the mobile responds and does something in return. It likes sympathetic resonance or what we call contingency. I have an effect on you and you are going to respond to me because of what I've just done to you. That's how you build a relationship. The consumer mentality takes that out of the story. It's just, do you fit the list and how do you meet me? It's not how do we meet each other. That's what the piece we want to return. When people don't have that, dating is boring. Dating is a drudge. Relationships are given up too soon because you basically are approaching the thing with the wrong tool. Do you recognize it? I'm not from you, Percy. Yes, with friends and stuff where I'm like, I think you should give that person a chance when you're saying to me, doesn't sound terrible. I've said to friends, I'm like, unless this person really revolts you, they seem nice and it seems like you're being a little too picky. One answer that I've played with recently. It's a question I ask in my sessions a lot but I've taken it on the street. Knowing yourself as well as this, you take to your girlfriends. Knowing yourself as well as you do. What would you say would make it hard to live with you? I'm not to you. Not to you, especially. Take it to your girlfriend. I was like, I'll tell you. I know. But they don't think about that when they're doing the Iq factor. You see, it's a very interesting. You see, it's a factor is you did something knowing yourself. For a minute, move the lens onto you and just ask yourself, what how many Iq factors may this person have had with me that they have chosen to overlook because they're giving me a chance. I'm not the only person making a decision here. That is very funny to think about because I think about that nice man in my life and I'm like, I probably have so many X. Whenever I have this machine called a creamy and it makes you ice cream and every time I make it, I sing the creamy song. I'm sure he hates that because he never joins in even though he knows the words. I guess that's not I guess I 100% know that like I don't really think about things like that. I'll just be like, Oh, that gross me out. I don't like that. It's like how many things do I do that like that give somebody the Iq or whatever. That's interesting. I guess as people move through this world, just like in life in general, but especially with dating, they aren't really thinking about what they're bringing to the table. Not enough, not enough. The thing is completely reversed partly because everything in our training at this moment is about distinct giving you all the answers. And it is constantly serving you and it is constantly trying to create a frictionless smooth reality for you where it takes out every challenge and every ripple to make it very, very polished. And people are messy and we are messy too. And that is becoming more challenging. So the Iq is our inability to deal with the messulous of human life. You know, the bombs, the caretaking, the smells, the stuff that is less shiny, that is not about, you know, the list. And I think that the people who all put the question you can always have around dating is why are some people always meeting people and always in relationships? And why do some other people never meet anybody? Do you have the answer? I think that a piece of this is not one I'm sure is not one answer, but I do know that pieces, people that are more open and curious and welcoming often will have a different experience than people who are evaluating and reflecting. And reflecting and reacting. Not even reflecting just simply reacting. I think that makes sense. Because I'm trying to think of all the people I know who are constantly in relationships and like, yeah, they're a friendly person. They are very open. Real quick, we got to take a break. Additional banks are just old. 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That's q-u-i-n-c-e.com/dateme for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/dateme. And, oh, we're back. Can you give us a little taste of a story from your podcast that a couple has brought to you? I'll give you a smorgasbord just to give you a sense. The latest episode is a woman who has two children that wears a very, very traumatic birth and who had a very abusive relationship growing up and asks herself. She would like to have another child and she doesn't know if she wants to have the child because she wants a reparative experience or because she wants to actually defy her mother. The previous session is my first session actually between a young man and his relationship with an AI. The next session is. Wait a minute. Yeah. I'm so sorry. When? Okay. Yeah. Go ahead, Nicole. Personally. I don't love AI. I don't love chat GPT. I feel like Google was doing a great job. If you can't draw a cartoon practice, like I just like feeding pictures to AI to turn them into cartoons, to me is like, what are we doing? And then getting into a relationship with an AI thing. What? So you've done one session with somebody who is. And I don't want to judge them. But did they explain to you how they fell in love with something that's not a person? I actually generally don't understand it. I think it really is a session to listen. It's a threshold moment. It's a threshold moment for anyone who listens to it because it is reality. It's where we are. He broke up after eight years. He has been in a period of grief and he has an AI that is meant to be an assistant. You know, fell in love with the secretary. And then gradually he starts to feel that the recognition and the appreciation and the experience of being valued and seen by his. which he programmed himself by the way, by his AI is much more. feels much better to him. Let's put it like that. Then the kind of challenges that he experiences when he's in the real world. And the rest you should absolutely listen. The next session is a guy who had a 25-year affair in a 40-something year marriage. He decides that she wants to stay and that is an incredible session. It's also very cross-cultural and it demands from us, Western people to actually understand that there are many different codes about how one relates to what is family, what is my commitment and my loyalty to family, what is the place of the woman in the family, etc., etc. So it's an amazing cross-cultural one. The next one is this young woman who broke up and wants to date this new man who was her best friend and is wondering, you know, is it too soon? So it covers the range of situations, which I think is kind of finding people in the heart of their life. And where did the idea come from to do a podcast that is therapy sessions? Because I am a therapist, I still practice, but I can't see everybody. And I started to feel like there are many important revelations and insights that take place in my office. And I wanted people to actually be able to hear them and to have the experience that only very few people get to have. So I wanted to open the door to my office and I wanted to lower the walls and I wanted to invite the public at large to come inside. There have never been patients, they're not my patients, they're people who apply by the thousands to be on the podcast. So they're not patients. It's very important to say that. But they experience with me the kind of consultations that I do with my patients. It allowed people to. I really thought it's one of the most powerful ways to get people out of the loneliness of thinking, am I the only one? Is this only happening to me? To really hear the story of the other in its truth. And then I thought this actually is becoming a public health campaign on relationships. How can I bring something to the public square that isn't privileged, that's democratic, that's free, that everybody can access wherever you are on the planet? That mattered. I like that. I think that's. I mean, that's kind. It was the first of its kind ten years ago. It's before therapy culture hit social media. So it was kind of. Here is the place where people are grappling with the major challenges of relationships. And that is what it actually sounds like. And what people are telling you out there, what it used to be on the steps of the church or now it's on the steps of the social platform, is perhaps not the full story. How do you feel about therapy speak being in the mainstream? I just watched all of the sopranos. Did you know? It's a good show. It's a fantastic show. But Tony soprano uses what he learns in therapy essentially to weaponize it, to get what he wants in life. And I was on. I think it was like Twitter or something. This person had posted a screenshot of what they had said to a woman they went on a date with. And she said something about like, "Oh, it's hard for me to open up. Sorry, I was a little awkward." And the man responded with, "That's okay. I didn't feel a spark, but there's somebody out there for you. You just need to open or be more vulnerable." It was like a lot of therapy speak to say, "I'm not feeling it." Where I feel like the man could have just said, "Hey, I don't think we're a match best of luck." So how do you feel about therapy speak being so in the mainstream and not necessarily helpful? It's a mixed bag. You know, I am part of it. So I have to own that too. I think originally the feeling I had was if it can destigmatize, if it can take people out of the silence, which therapy had always been, there's something very powerful about that, to put it into the conversation, that way it's not written with shame and secrecy. That may bring something really good. Then it became weaponized. Then it became basically in the hands of people who don't necessarily know what those words mean. And the stuff gets redefined and bastardized and used like ketchup, you know, on every dish. You can pour the same sauce. So that becomes problematic. And then it becomes a pseudo enlightened language. I pretend that I'm enlightened and I am informed and I have self-awareness and I am a growth person. And I use this entire jargon when basically I'm trying to say I'm not into it. That is a kind of a, what can I say? I mean, what can we say? (laughing) It is just kind of interesting 'cause I feel like in some friendships that I've had, I've like asked somebody to do something and they're like, "Actually, I need to protect my peace." And I don't wanna do it. And I'm like, "Okay, I literally asked for just a simple favor "and I don't think you need to protect your peace "from it." - Right, right. And it fits an entire focus on the self, self-protection, safety, self-awareness. I need to love myself before I can love anybody else. Just it's like it is basically the epitome of the individualistic culture where the self sits at the center like a demigod, and instead of just saying, "I'm not gonna be a good friend." I'm so sorry, I just don't feel like it or I can't or I, you know, wrong time. I hope you can accept. It becomes, let me explain to you what is so important to me and why I don't have the capacity at this moment. And it is too much of a burden on me and I have to really protect my boundaries. And I'm in the middle of it. (gasps) - I honestly think it's more fun to say. I'm not doing it 'cause I don't want to. It feels very powerful. - Yes, but I don't want to, doesn't invite you to understand me and to understand why I would say no to you. So now that's the flip, right? You're saying, "I'm coming with a request." And instead of it being, I just asked you to do something for me. It now becomes, "You need to understand why I am not able to do what you asked me." And suddenly the subject of the sentence is no longer you, but me. And that is the weaponizing. It's like, "Everything now becomes about me." And if you are pissed off at this, you don't understand what is so important to me. So not only do I get to say no to you, but you don't even get to be upset about the fact that I got to say no to you. - Yep, 'cause I'm not gonna, "I don't want to." I think it's like, when I've said no to people, I'm like, "You can get upset. That's well within you, right?" But I'm just not doing it for you. And it is, sometimes you try to like mitigate somebody's feelings, but then my therapist says, "I'm not responsible for how somebody feels." So, you're entitled to say no, and they're entitled to be upset. - Yes. - And those two will live together, rather than in a constant situation of conflict avoidance. Not only do I say no, but I need you to understand the nature of my refusal and to be sympathetic and empathetic about that so that you don't get to be upset. And that's how I kind of turn it around and I make it about me and not about you. It is something fantastically manipulative about you. - It is interesting. I got into an argument with the nice man in my life. And I said to him, I said, "You want his name on the show, the nice man in my life?" - Yeah, 'cause he's not a boy. - Yes, he feels like a boy. - So I feel like a boy. - A boy friend. And then partner just seems to business life. And we're having fun. (laughing) But we like gotten to a fight. And I said to him, I said, "I think you're right. I think I'm right. I don't think you're wrong. I don't think I'm wrong. I think we just aren't gonna come together on this." And then he was like, "But I think you want to be right." And I was like, "But you can think that. I'm literally telling you, I don't think either of us, I don't think there's a right and a wrong." But he was really hung up on somebody being right. And I just thought that was really interesting because once you can assess that somebody is right, then the other person gets to be validated. And then it's a whole thing where I'm like, "I think we could just sit in our feelings with this and it's okay." And it was okay. We like, he finally was like, "Okay, I agree. I don't think anybody's right." And I was like, "Okay, good." And then he was like, "So." And I was like, "So we move on." (laughing) That's just it. - And you take the power dynamic out of it. - Yes. - Because the right and wrong is a power dynamic. It's just only one brain that works and it's mine. - I mean, that's how I actually do feel a lot of the time. But realistically, I have to go, you can't be right all the time. And I'm not right all the time. And that's okay. Even though it feels good to be right. - It feels good to be right, but it's not difficult to be right and alone. What you want in a relationship is not to feel right at the expense of the connection. So I find myself often saying to be, it's not difficult to be right, but then you will be right and alone. So you're alone with your rightness and meanwhile you've lost the person, the connection. They've gone into a different place. - They said, "I'll find somebody else who's easier." - Or they leave the room and they just check out. You know, they just mean, whereas the issue is how do you hold on to you whatever you think or whatever you feel without losing the other? That's the biggest challenge of relationships. How do I hold on to me without losing you? Or how do I hold on to you without losing me? And what's the answer to that? - It's a dance, it's a constant practice. You know, some people need to learn to actually be more assertive. Some people need to learn to give in, to listen to the other, to not stand a ground and battle and like a 12 year old in rebellion, not our times. And so each one needs to calibrate the part of themselves that is less developed. You have only three types of dances. You have couples who do this, both of us but heads because they both want to. You have one who follows and one who avoids and distances in the other direction or you have people who do that with a big gap in between. So now I'm going to my room, I go to my room, I don't need to listen to you, I don't listen to you. So you have this, this or this. Those are the three main stances and dances in couples. - Interesting. I think we have all three. - On a team, you rotate. We really do, 'cause sometimes I literally follow him around. Like after we have a disagreement, I'll be like, but I want to be near you, I didn't like that. - I don't like the tension that is created by the discord. - And sometimes I'll be like, I got a good at the room and you can't come. And then sometimes, no, he doesn't actually follow me around. No, he's. - He waits for you to chill. - Yes, he's an adult. - Yes, he waits for you to back down. - Yeah. - All right, real quick, we have to take a break. (upbeat music) Have you ever had a client where you're like, "Hmm, I don't think I can help you." Have you ever like, this is my question about all therapy. As a therapist, have you ever been like, "Oh, I don't know if this person can fundamentally be helped." So I need to like refer them to something else or just give up. - Many times. - Oh yeah? - Many times. Many times, many times I think I'm not the right person. I don't know how to work, or I've tried whatever I can, or maybe my colleague So-in-So-Who works very differently, has an approach that is more suitable to you. You know, I think of it as when people try to stop smoking. You know, this one acupuncture, this one hypnosis, this one the patch, this one. And then they say, "What worked for me is this." It's the hypnosis that worked for me. But of course, before that, they did one, two, three, four. And this is the one that finally stopped, but it's built on everything else. So I may not be the one in this moment who will help you, but the person who comes after me may build on what I did, that build on what the previous person did. It's a chain. It's not just one therapist in your life. And sometimes I don't think I can help you because I don't, because not because of you, but because of me. I don't think I'm the right person for this. A, it's not my expertise. B, we don't have the right click. And I think the fit is extremely important. Three, for some reason, whatever I say, it doesn't register. And you shouldn't waste your time here. Or four, you're doing adult babysitting. Meaning you know that you're gonna end, but you need this to last a few more years because you've got kids to raise. Ah. And as long as we are clear on what is the agenda, but then we know what is the agenda. The agenda is not that you say I want to change. I want to improve things. The agenda is you say help me figure this out so I can stay a few more years. Or I can't help you because all you're trying to tell me is that it's the other person who needs to do the work. Couple therapy is sometimes a drop off center. People bring your partner, their partner, and they say to me, fix 'em. It's like they come to drop off. Interest say. Fix 'em, yeah. Fix 'em, fix 'em, you know. It's just no, and it's like, and then they say, kind of implied, I'll help you. I'm an expert on what's wrong with my partner. And I'll watch you. Do the job for me. So when you're in a situation like that, where people don't want to take responsibility for at least what they contribute, then you don't really, it's harder to work. - I never thought of couples therapy as one person being like, "Bix that one." - Oh, often. - Interesting. - What's the problem? - This one. - But there's two people in it. - Ah. - You're good. (laughing) - I'm the therapist now. (laughing) I mean, in my relationship, he does things that I'm like, "Oh my God." But then I'm like, "I also do things." So I'm sure that maybe something I do is aiding the thing that he does that annoyed, like causing a fact. - What I do makes you do what you do. - Yeah. - Yes, it's a figure eight all the time. But sometimes that's not how people come in. Because when I'm alone, I only have myself that I can either, but when there is another person right next to me, I can very easily say, I feel all of this because of you. And you need to change. And I depend on you for that to happen. It's one of the things that we discuss a lot with therapists. It's a great question. It's I think it's a great question on the part of the therapist and on the part of the patients. You need to know if you're in the right place. You as the person need to know, if it feels to you that things are not moving, you need to address it, at least bring it to the therapist. And to the therapist, if you feel like things are not moving, you need to tell them, "I don't think this is happening." It's not, whatever we decided we were doing here is not happening. I'm doing this big conference, May 15, 16, in New York, with a lot of young therapists. And who often have not really worked in person recently. - Oh, just like all over the world. - A lot of it. And the major piece of that is, what is it like to feel a click between people? This is true in dating, but this is also true in therapy work. When it is totally disembodied. You've been engaging me. I've been engaging you with sensing each other, we're smiling to each other. We are communicating 20% maybe verbally and 80% non-verbally. But it enters into what we say, but there's so many other ways we are communicating. If we doing this on screen, all we see is this, I have no sense of how you move, of how you do, of you and me, of how tall we are, nothing, nothing. So, very difficult to decide what is a click, what is a good fit. How do I. - Yeah, how do you pull it out of somebody? Yeah, that's interesting. So you said that you're doing a conference. This brings me back to "Supranos." So, "Supranos" was the first series that people came to the session and reflected on what they saw in the episode of the day before. - Wait, really? - That was the first, then came six feet under. - Oh! - That was the second one, if you remember those series. - I haven't seen six feet under. - Amazing series. - Maybe that's the next one that we want. - And those were the first time where popular culture was entering into the sessions. - Interesting. - And you had to have seen the episode to be in the two. - To know what people were talking about. But Melaphim, this is towards the end of the series. Or maybe, so she has a bunch of therapist friends and her Elliott, her therapist, she's also her friend, tells the group that she's seeing Tony "Supranos." Do you have a group of therapist friends and do you dish? - So, I have more than one group of therapist friends or colleagues. I have supervision groups that I'm part of where we discuss our work in our case and we don't dish. We really actually continue to learn. - You're like, I'm a professional through and through. I'm not drinking wine and being like, this idiot. - No, I don't know. I relish the confidentiality. But I am part of groups of therapists with whom we continue to learn together with people of completely different disciplines who discuss cases together and who are each bringing their point of view, their expertise, how they would handle this. We role play with each other, we learn from each other. I have my own supervision group where I have been teaching for the last 15, 20 years. And then, Sessions Live, at this, the name of this conference, is actually a clinical and a cultural conference. This year it is about the 20th anniversary of my bookmaking and captivity. But the point is to bring therapists, practitioners of all sorts, not just a couple of therapists, together to create a collective experience to discuss the challenges of modern relationships and to have people learn from each other. It's to me the most important thing. Therapy is a very lonely profession otherwise. - I mean, it seems like it. - You know, you're alone with the stories and the challenges and the pains of a lot of people. You need colleagues, you need to discuss it, you need to affloat, you need to be supported, you need, you know, plus it triggers a lot of things inside of you, because you sometimes experience something quite similar and it's called supervision. It's called, you know, the ability to have people who support you while you are holding so much for others. - Is that what you meant earlier when you said that, sometimes you're not able to treat people because of yourself, where sometimes the story is like, "Oh, that's a little too close to home." - Yes, yes, yes. I definitely have things where I say that is not for me. I'm too close and I don't think you should pay me for me to deal with my things. (laughing) - You know, I should be available for you with the best of what I can offer. And then there is expertise. There are certain issues that I have expertise in and certain things that, you know, this one has worked with this. I know this, you know. And the more you do practice over many years, the more you know what you know and what you don't. And the less insecure you feel about what you don't know. So you can just say, "That's not me." - Do you think in the beginning when you start out, or you think you should be able to work with everybody and everything, that is the weakness of the early. - I think that that kind of is. - Exactly. Everybody who starts out with any sort of thing that they're passionate about, they're like, "I can do anything." And then you get older and you're like, "Well, I can do some things." - That's right. - I do some things well. I was asked to do a group. - I told you the agreement. - Oh, so the supervision groups and the conferences, is that like continuing your education, or would you as a therapist ever like go back to school to learn like new advances in therapy? - So we don't go back to school. We go to conferences. - Because when you train and you get continuing education credits, actually like mine too, you, in order to maintain your license, you have to actually do continuing education credits. - Oh, I don't know that. - Yes, nurses, therapists, we all, physicians, we all need to maintain our license. And that demands that we constantly learn new things. So you learn new approaches, you learn research, you learn practices, and you go to conferences or two courses to do so. And that is what this conference does as well. - How often do you have to renew your license? This is, I'm just curious. - I think that is completely decided by state. - Oh, it's so high on the count like. - Some things are like, oh, it's all over the country, you have to do it this way. And then some things are just by the state. - No, that's by state. - Interesting. - But generally it's by the year or by two, three years, it's not like you have to do a certain amount of continuing education credits every year. - Okay, that makes you continuously stay fresh and force you to go, of a force. Demands from you to go and study, which I think is extremely important. I mean, it's every craft person continues to learn to get better at their craft. - So we have just like a lot of information being thrown at us, I feel like at all times. - So what is, as a therapist, what would you say? How do we get more connected to each other in the digital age? There we go, that was a good way to ask that. - So how do you use tech for good? - Yeah. I love a tiny little practice that has really changed a lot for me, which is every morning you connect with two people. Or every day you connect with two people. And you just ask them how you're doing. You don't, you know, and check in with them. So meaning use the device, but instead of scrolling right away, use it to actually reach out to the people in your life. Because what happens at this moment is sometimes you don't hear from someone and you think, "Oh, they're busy." And you have no idea if they're busy or if they're struggling. And then sometimes when you get an answer, it's been rough. I haven't reached out because I'm dealing with this. My mother is sick. And I think we are, we really are too lax. We spend too many days, weeks away from, "Oh, I thought you were traveling." No, no, I wasn't traveling. I actually even left my house, you know? So that kind of reaching out, "Hey, people welcome it. "Be, it makes you feel that you matter." Three, talk to strangers on the street and make them a compliment. I go to see, I stand in one situation, after another, well nobody looks at each other. And I'm just like, you know, people on the street on the subway in New York, nobody's looking at each other. And people dress up. Why do you dress up? If nobody's gonna ever look at you, and you're not the only person looking at you, say, "It's not enough to have a mirror." You know, you want people to say, "That's nice. This I like all this nickel." Something, you know, but everybody's there like this. And then we start to experience this flattening inside of us, the dulling of the senses, you know. I think that you can do a lot with tech that actually does help you connect to people. It doesn't just have to make you enter a vortex where an hour later you lift your head like a zombie, and you don't know where you just went. That's one piece. I think people need to have more dinners and homes. Don't make it a production. Just have everybody bring something, meet together, but meet in person. There are too many people who tell me they don't come out of their house for days or maybe sometimes just to go and have a dinner something. Meet on a park, meet on a lawn. It doesn't have to cost anything. That's the other piece. Have things become relational. You want to exercise every day, find some people to exercise with. You'll first of all, for many people, that means you'll do more. But have it integrated in your life? When it comes to dating, I think the thing that I've been trying to say to a lot of people is, there's something bizarre in going on a date, even when you describe it, that you would go in a bar to meet a stranger, to hope that you're not gonna be wasting the next two hours, and to hope that when you leave, you don't say, what the fuck did I do there? What a waste of my time, et cetera, et cetera, I can't believe I said this. And meanwhile, I didn't get to see my friends. I didn't get to go to this movie. I didn't get to go dance. Do your life. And whoever you're having a date with, bring them into your life. Whatever you were gonna do tomorrow, you say, I'm going tomorrow, I'm going to listen to this band. I'm going to dance. I'm going to hike here and there. And you want to join. If it doesn't happen, you're still wearing your life. You don't have the sense that you left your life to go date in this sterile environment. And then one day you'll do a big reveal to your friends of who is this, what do you call him, the nice man and my life. Nice man of my life. That worked for you, but for a lot of people, I think it actually is depleting to leave your life and go date. Have the dating take place in the context of your life. It will change a lot. And then your friends will tell you, yeah, no, or they won't say anything. And then you'll just say, oh, but I noticed how we talk to you and I didn't like this. Or I was really taught, I really appreciate. You have so much more information. Because you're not just dealing with data. You're dealing with intuitive knowledge. The self you sense, the felt sense. I sat next. I looked at how he helped. I looked at how he responded, or they, or him, or her. Them, doesn't really, this is cross gender and cross any orientation. That to me is really one of the most important things that we are losing. Either into a device, either into a dark spot, a dark place where you can ask questions, rather than integrating. I think we'll maintain connections. Young people less sex, less drinking, less dinners, 74% of food that is cooked in American restaurants at this moment is eaten off the premises. Really? Yes. That is really shocking, isn't it? Yes. It's like the counter is no longer the place where you go to sit, the counter is the place where you pick up your bag. It's like everywhere you look, the social atrophy is crotching and crotching in us. And I think we don't have to succumb to it. There's a ton of things we can do that actually will remind us that we are human, that we are social, that we need connection, that we need touch, touch. Even if we don't need sex, we need touch. I think you're right. But I also, people in like Ohio, I'm like, how do I? How do I? I'm just like, I feel like it's harder in like rural places to go out and like make friends and things like that. And LA, it's easy. But do you know how you some people like to bike? Some people like to do. You're right. We mark it's some people like to draw some, there is activities that bring people together. Some people like to be in a book club, in a movie club. There's so many ways to come together around a shared interest. If you're not gonna go to church every Sunday in order to meet your people there, then you need to meet them somewhere else. The need doesn't go away, even if the location changes. You know, I think that that's the, rural people were not lonely in rural lands before. People were not lonely in smaller cities. So. No, you're right. I truly was like, the people in Ohio, what do they do? And I don't want to be right. No, I wish I had to be right actually on this one. Well, Esther, we've come to the end. Do you? Do you have anything that you want to promote? I will share with you. So, mating in captivity is a book I wrote literally 20 years ago that looked at the tension between love and desire, between our need for security and safety, and our need for freedom and adventure. And it did become a kind of a cultural thing rather than just a book. But I think it brings the opportunity for us to look at what has happened in 20 years. Where are we at with relationships? Actually, book was written before social media, before dating apps, et cetera. So, what are the enduring needs that are just part of our humanity? And what are the things that have changed because the context is completely different? Sessions Live is coming up in May. You can be part of it for in Ohio. And in every small part of the world, it goes, you can join it in person and join it digitally. Many times people say, "So I read your book or I listen to the podcast or I've watched your TED talks. What do I do?" And then I decided to actually create the tools in a set of courses, one on conflict. You asked me before about good conflict, bad conflict, or productive on productive. So, I did a whole course. There are digital courses that people use. One is on desire, one is coming out on trust and betrayal. And they are like, "Okay, if you don't wanna feel helpless, you need to feel active." So it means what can I do? So I created the courses to help people feel what they can do. And then lastly, I just joined Substack. That's my last little venture. So that's enough touch points, don't you? (laughing) I like it. Yeah, you got your hands on everything. Esther, thank you so much for being here. I do ask all my guests this, would you date me? Let me ask you two differently. Now, I've gotta do the therapist thing. Okay. Would you date you? (silence) Yes. I think so. What happened? I did have to pause, 'cause I was like, "Let me actually think about it." No, I would date me. I think I'm fun. I think I'm a nice time. I think I'm caring. I think I'm thoughtful. So, why I ask you is because I would always want to date someone who wishes, or who says, "I would date myself too." It's hard to love someone who doesn't really love themselves. That's the answer. I ask every woman, when we talk about sexuality, would you ever want to make love to yourself? Oh, yeah, I would. I think it'd be really fun. It's the same thing. I want to make love to a woman who wants to make love to herself. I want to date a woman who thinks it would be lovely to date herself. That's why I'm turning the question around. I'm gonna go home and ask that nice man if he would date himself. I wonder what he would say. Mm, I'm gonna go. Would you tell me? I will. I will let you know. I'd love to know. And ask it to every one of your girlfriends. That's a fun party question. It's a great fun party question. Like after a couple glasses of wine, girl, would you date yourself? Yes. And why would you date yourself? What about, I mean, because it turns the whole thing, play with it. I like that. It's a treat to be here. It's fun. It truly was a dream. I love it. Thank you so much for listening. And watching this episode of Why Won't You Date Me? You can follow it on Spotify and Apple Podcast. And if you write me something dirty, hitting on me to Why Won't You Date Me [email protected], Mars will read it. She'll print it out and then I'll read it. This person writes, "I would get us a private trip up the elevator at the St. Louis Arch. But it's only four minutes at a top and three back down. So once the door is closed, I rip your shirt open, grab you by the nipples. That seems like it's gonna hurt." And start kissing you hard. You mown into my mouth and squeeze my fat ass. We're almost halfway to the top when I run my hand into your panties and thumb your clip. Then slip two fingers in your pussy. Wait, this is too much, Esther. And get to finger blasted. We're at the top now and we pause our dilettance. Dillettance? You don't know. Dallions. Dallions, thank you. Sometimes reading is hard. I went to public school to turn to see the whole city on the horizon. Honestly, it's underwhelming. I kneel and suck your clit till your knees shake. You compose yourself as the doors open and we head out for a, head out for snacks from Ray. Thank you, Ray. Goodbye. Hi. That was a hit gun podcast. Hi, I am Mandy Moore. Sterling Kay Brown. And I'm Chris Sullivan. And we host the podcast. That was us now on HeadGum. Each episode we're going to go into a deep dive. Yeah. From our show This Is Us. That's right. We're going to go episode by episode. We're also going to pepper in episodes with different guest stars and writers and casting directors. Are we going to cry? Yes. A little bit. Are we going to laugh? A lot. I'm going to go to the show and open man. Listen to that was us on your favorite podcast app or watch full video episodes on YouTube or Spotify. New episodes every Tuesday.