Would YOU buy a Chinese EV?

(upbeat music) On today's episode, would you buy a Chinese EV Prime Minister Mark Carney's trade deal with China? Would see dropping of tariffs on Chinese-made electric vehicles. Reaction to that is mixed. We'll dig into it. And should Canada expand trade ties with hostile countries? Carney's doing a deal with China. David E.B. is wheeling and dealing with India. We'll break that down as well. This is the Mike Smith Show podcast. We start today with the trade deal between Canada and China. Wow, what an announcement from Mark Carney this morning in China. It's a canola for EV's deal. That's part of it. China agreeing to reduce those tariffs on Canadian canola products. That will make Saskatchewan premier Scott Moe very happy. In return, Canada's slashing tariffs on Chinese-made electric vehicles, Ontario Premier Doug Ford furious over this this morning. Says this is selling out Canadian auto workers. Heather Exner-Purro standing by to discuss first. Let's have a listen to Carney's announcement this morning in Beijing. I'm pleased today to announce that Canada and China have reached a preliminary but landmark trade agreement to remove trade barriers and reduce tariffs. We're returning to the levels of Chinese automobiles as a cap that we had two years ago. Secondly, just a reinforce. That's less than 3% of the Canadian auto sector. OK, so we say it's less than 3% to the auto sector in Canada as they start allowing these Chinese-made electric vehicles into the country here. But, man, Ontario is not going to be happy about this deal at all. Let's discuss with my guest now, Heather Exner-Purro, Mcdonald-Lorrie Institute. Senior fellow there. One of Canada's top experts. Heather, thanks a lot for coming on this morning. I agree to be here. It's great to have you here and thanks a lot for doing it. What's your first reaction when you heard this? I think there's maybe surprise some people of the extent to this deal, but your thoughts? Well, I didn't think Scott Moe was going to make the trip over to China if there wasn't going to be a Canola deal. That's-- he's been very vocal about this. Since the tariffs were put on, it was a quid pro quo. We, you know, we, we tariffs the EVs and China responded with the Canola. And that's been a thorn in Saskatchewan farmer's side since then. So I guess I was anticipating this. But obviously this is a very polarizing discussion. We're seeing some odd bell bedfellows and some odd, you know, adversaries in our country today, but yeah, Carnie made his decision. And certainly there's some, you know, aspects of Western Canada and the servers that should be happy. OK, let's have a listen to the premier of Ontario here. Unhappy about Canada dropping tariffs on EVs. This is before the deal was made with Doug Ford, warning Mark Carnie, don't do it. Don't drop those tariffs on those Chinese EVs. Let's listen. We can't back down as simple as that. Don't be shipping cars in, not manufactured by Ontarians. The only compromise I would have is if they open up here, they hire uniform employees, and they produce vehicles here. We have the best auto workers in the entire world. That's the compromise. OK, so he says that, all right, maybe if China agreed to build the cars here in Canada instead, that's not what this deal is, right? This is going to allow China to bring in Chinese made electric vehicles, correct? Yeah, and again, as Carnie said, to about the same level as we had in 2023, right? And I will point, obviously, you know, the Canadian auto sector has been under a tremendous amount of pressure, but it is true. And they have said in the auto, you know, just last week that 95% of the cars that we produce in Canada won't meet the EV mandate, you know, or not don't qualify as EVs under Canadian definitions. And the lowest hanging fruit, which even Doug Ford has acknowledges, you know, to get rid of or to, you know, change the EV mandate that we have in Canada, that would obviously be helpful for Canadian made cars. And so that is maybe a compromise that just about everyone in the country could get behind is to create a bigger market for the Canadian cars that we are making. Yeah, we could have like $35,000 or Chinese made EVs entering the country. They will be capped at a certain percentage of the market overall. Heather Exner-Perot is my guest, MacDonald-Laurier Institute, the trade deal announced this morning by Mark Carnie between Canada and China. Human rights organizations, Heather, already criticizing this saying that human rights violations by China have just become a footnote in a trade deal between the two countries. Carnie was asked about it in Beijing this morning. Let's listen. We fundamentally stand up for human rights. We stand up for democracy, territorial integrity, rights to self-determination. We take the world as it is, not as we wish it to be. I thought that was an interesting way that he phrased that. I guess he's essentially saying that, okay, we know that China is a bad actor on some of these, but we've got to engage with them, right? They're one of the biggest economies in the world. What are your thoughts? - Well, you know, I have, you know, I'm an ultra pragmatist myself. I guess a lot of the focus has been on Carnie saying, new world order, but I also thought that his, you know, that this sentence is pie more revealing about what Canada's strategy is going to be. I mean, you know, the United States is not a particularly reliable partner now either. Now, obviously, there's still more important. No one wants to lose any market share with the United States, but obviously, you know, things have changed and Canada needs to recalibrate. And that was not our choice. Our only choice is that we respond. So I do appreciate, you know, this is a time for pragmatism. It is, you know, there are many corners. As human rights, also the security community will be rightfully concerned about what it means to bring in, you know, more Chinese vehicles. We do know that they have used it, you know, for gathering intelligence and data on other countries. And it does, you know, it does, you know, what will be the American response for example, encouragement negotiations. On the other hand, we need to diversify our exports and China is the first stop for any country on diversifying exports. And they're perfectly well matched for what we export, certainly natural resources. Okay, speaking of the United States, I wonder what Donald Trump is going to say about this deal. Carnie was asked about it this morning. And wow, here's another interesting observation he had about dealing with China compared to the United States. Have a listen to this. This is Carnie this morning. The one comparison I will give you with the United States our relationship, this is no insight, is much more multifaceted, much deeper, much broader than it is with China. But yes, in terms of the way that our relationship has progressed in recent months with China, it is more predictable and you see results coming from that. Okay, China is a more predictable trading partner than the USA. Is Mark Carnie had said once that China was the greatest security threat in the world to China, but it sounds like he prefers dealing with them and then he does with Trump, what do you think? Yeah, I saw, you know, a funny meme it said, you know, Canada's choosing lawful evil over chaotic evil. And obviously that, you know, they're two superpowers. They do what you want and Canada's a middle power kind of has to adjust to both. I, you know, obviously, so obviously the United States has become more unpredictable. That's his Trump strategy. I guess now we'll wonder, you know, is Canada playing 3D chess? Or are we kind of swing in the waves and we can debate on what that is? I think, you know, you could make the argument, certainly those generous to Carnie will make the argument that he is strengthening our leverage, that that is one language that Trump understands, that we are trying to bring cards to play at Kuzma, we are trying to bring alternatives and not up here week. And so we'll see if that's actually how this all gets played out. But, you know, if you're, again, just an ultra-realist, ultra-pragmatist, I think, you know, diversifying, you know, the superpowers that you do business with in this time of changing geopolitics. Yeah, I would say, you know, is probably a consensus, a geopolitical move to make. Right. You mentioned that you're a pragmatist. Would you say this is a pragmatic deal? This is the right move for Canada at this time. I, you know, this, anyone who thinks this is black and white, you know, it's not. And so there are trade-offs involved in this. This is not an easy decision. There are some winners and there are some losers. There are some costs and there are some benefits. Of all the range of options, I don't think Karni has come out too poorly on this. I guess that remains to be seen. But, you know, in his goals of strengthening the G7 economy of doubling our non-US exports, this obviously advances that. And as you say, you know, what it will be the Trump administration's response. Certainly in some factions of MEGA, you know, with this is communism. And, you know, we are right to treat Canada poorly and we are unreliable. But you haven't heard that from Trump yet. What do you think Trump will say? What do you think he'll say? What will your prediction? I think deep down in his heart, this is the kind of thing that he would have done. This is something he would expect us to do. And so I think for, you know, a large part of the U.S. security establishment is just, you know, China is the adversary. And this will be met with, you know, a lot of concern. I think for MEGA that want to see Canada as a, you know, kind of a woke communist, you know, a stooge, this will be met through that lens. But maybe for Trump, who is the deal maker, he sees, you know, some, some method to this madness. But I guess, you know, we're all speculating today, we haven't heard yet what the American response. And frankly, Trump is busy with about another dozen more, you know, profile, uh, portfolios that will take more of his attention than Canada this week. Heather, thanks for coming on to your thoughts today. Yeah, great to be here. Okay, another quick reminder for all the listeners who are playing along with CK and W's U plus one for a year of fun contest. Lots of people out there are collecting the concert code words every day. We've got lots of emails about this from the listeners, great prize here. You get a chance to win a year long event prize package in 2026, including tickets to some of the biggest shows in town. And now normally, I tell you the concert code words at 10 a.m., right today, we've got cross-talk live across Canada at 10 a.m., like we do every Friday. So I will tell you the concert code word today at 945 approximately after the news, after the next news break, keep your ears open for the concert code word, just giving you the heads up on that. Lots of people collecting the code words, it'll be coming up after the next break. All right. Let's keep talking about Canada's auto market. Now, wow, what an announcement this morning in Beijing by Prime Minister Mark Carney, Canada agreeing to relax those tariffs on Chinese-made electric vehicles. They will allow a limited number of those Chinese-made EVs into the country, 49,000 a year. Carney is saying that's going to be less than 3% of the total market, so starting slow, but it will ramp up over time. Carney also speculating that there could be even more Chinese electric vehicles onto the market if China agrees to build them in Canada. So a lot going on in the auto market in reaction to this today, also just out the top selling vehicles in Canada in 2025. So the numbers are in now. We've got the best selling trucks, cars and SUVs here for you in 2025. Let's break it down now with my guest, barrashacuric, vice president at autotrader.ca. Barrash, thanks a lot for coming on today. Having me, Mike. Always a pleasure. Likewise, thanks a lot for doing it. Okay, let's talk about some of these best selling vehicles. SUVs are still the king of the road here for a lot of people. The number one selling SUV in Canada in 2025 was the Toyota RAV4. Does that, I'm sure barrash, that does not surprise you. That's been top of the heap for a while, right? Yeah, that doesn't surprise us, to be honest with you, it's been there for a while. Even with the Ford F150, it's been topping the top search and top top sold for quite a while now. So no big, big surprises. What do people like about those SUVs? Why are they so popular? I mean, they're reliable. They look good. Again, I'm being a little subjective here, probably. But their prices compared to their luxurious, more luxurious counterparts. Obviously, they're on the more affordable side. So probably these are the high level reasons that's the why they want to buy those. Toyota RAV4, they sold more than 75,000 of them in Canada last year. Second place for SUVs in Canada is the Honda CRV, just over 55,000, then the Hyundai Tucson. So those are your most popular SUVs in the country. Horrish, let's talk about the most popular cars in Canada, number one in 2025. It was the Honda Civic, the Honda Civic, the most popular model there. Horrish, your thoughts? Yeah, Honda Civic has been popular along with the Corolla, Corolla didn't make it to the top five this year, but usually there's some availability issues on the Toyota side. But overall, Honda Civic, Toyota, the Elantra, they're always popular. But on the other hand, when we look at the market as a whole, there's more and more SUVs and light trucks that are coming into the market. Canadians have been preferring larger vehicles, so there's less of them, therefore fewer sales. Okay, the Japanese vehicle is always popular here when it comes to SUVs and cars as well. But let's talk about light duty pickup trucks now. The other very popular category, as you mentioned, number one in Canada, number one selling truck, the Ford F-Series, that's the Ford F-150, right? That's the Ford F-150, 11 years in a row, most old, most search on the Toyota.ca, no big surprises, Dodge Ram 1500, also made it to the top. Again, no big surprises, they're relatively similar vehicles, there's quite a bit of availability on both fronts. So, no big surprises. Ford F-Series trucks, 138,000 of them sold in Canada last year, GMCC era up there, the Ram trucks, so it's like the American models do well in the trucks, but not as well on the SUVs and cars, right? Why is that? Right, so when we look at the composition of inventory, usually pickup trucks, and we have more domestic brands, and when you look at the sedans as smaller cars, Asians, they're more availability on the Asian side. Barsh Akirik is my guest, autotrader.ca, okay, Barsh, let's talk about electric vehicles now. What was the market like for electric vehicles new and used in Canada in 2025? Yeah, no, the market was pretty nuanced. So there was, when you look at the battery electric vehicles on the news side, they didn't do well. So, looking at the stats and data, Q1 to Q3 on a year-over-year basis, battery electric vehicles sales came down by 41.2%, yeah, so it's a big decline, and again, I don't want to say I told you so, but we've been talking about this for a while, because looking at research, we keep hearing from consumers over the years is that cost is a big obstacle, EVs tend to be more expensive than their internal combustion engine counterparts. So now, if you remember going back exactly actually a year ago, the federal government stopped the federal incentive program for EVs, so they have become essentially effectively more expensive. So they're more expensive, and now they're even more further more expensive, and sales as we had predicted have gone down quite a bit. But on the other hand, when you look at the hybrids, the stories are very different. Overall, new hybrids are doing really well, quote-unquote, the best of the both worlds. So there's obviously less anxiety on the range and whatnot, and they're very popular. They have done really, really well in 2025. So the situation is a bit nuanced, and now with the news that it's coming out from Beijing this morning, it's going to be probably interesting a couple of years ahead, for sure. Oh, yeah. That's for sure. When I talk to people about electric vehicles, you often hear about that range anxiety or battery performance, especially if you're living in a colder climate in parts of North or interior of British Columbia, are the batteries getting better, though, aren't they? Yeah. So batteries are getting better. Like, think about the first cell phone you had, Mike, right? Like, I used to carry two batteries in my pocket, but now I don't have to worry about this. Over time, it's going to get better, but when it comes to consumer perception, it's still a big issue. So again, going back to our electric vehicle survey that we run on an annual basis, 78 percent of the consumers who are not considering buying EV stated that that's the number one reason. Limited travel range, the second one is higher purchase cost. We just talked about it, and the third one is the lack of charging availability. So availability, charging availability, and battery-related costs and range anxiety is the highest, the biggest reason as to why some consumers don't consider them. Barra Shakurik is my guest auto-trader.ca. Okay, Barra, let's talk about the big news out of Beijing this morning with the trade deal between Canada and China. Mark Carney announcing that they will allow these Chinese-made EVs to enter the country 49,000 a year. The tariff on these vehicles will be dropped to chop down to 6.1 percent. Previous tariff was 100 percent. So a huge drop in the tariff on these vehicles. The numbers of these Chinese-made EVs will be capped, but it will go up over time. Some speculation could China start making these EVs in Canada. So a lot going on here when it comes to these Chinese-made electric vehicles. And Mark Carney, play a clip here for you, bars for your thoughts. Mark Carney asked about this today, he said, "Look, this is good. This is good for Canada because these Chinese-made electric vehicles are cheap. Okay? Let's listen to them." Sure, been an increasing portion of those exports will be in a new segment of the Canadian market. In other words, electric vehicles that cost less than $35,000 at the landed price. So there's huge opportunity here to get more affordable cars in the electric vehicle market for Canada. Okay, huge opportunity for Canadian consumers to buy a less expensive electric vehicle made in China under $35,000. We saw BYD, the Chinese EV maker recently overtake Tesla as number one in the world. Barush, do you think Canadians will want to get their hands on these vehicles? Yes, look, there is a lot to unpack here, right? So if we just like close our eyes and don't forget about anything else, but just think about the price itself. Look, they're cheaper, there's no other way around. So looking at the vehicles that we have on Auditator.ca, new EV battery electric vehicle prices on Auditator.ca, the average price in 2025, December 2025 was $66,724. So compared to the $35,000 mark that Mark Carney just mentioned, it is significantly cheaper. But on the other hand, if you open your eyes and look around, obviously, there are different things to consider, like labor standards, right, like the safety standards and other things. So I think there's going to be a lot to unpack here and we're going to have to do a lot of thinking as to what the impact would be. All these jobs that we have in Ontario, especially how would they be impacted? So there's a lot to unpack, but if you only concentrate on the pricing aspect, as I mentioned to you, looking at the EV research prices higher, causes is a big barrier. From that perspective, it's going to be good, but implications are going to be probably larger. What kind of reputation are these Chinese electric vehicles have, Barish, like for people who do, if you do a vacay down in Mexico, you'll see a lot of these BYD vehicles driving around. They're popular there. They sell a lot in Europe. Number one, electric vehicle maker in the world now overtaking Tesla. Do they have a good reputation for quality? Those BYD vehicles? Yeah, I don't really, I don't want to speculate, Mike. Based on what I hear and what I read, they're okay, but on the other hand, they haven't been around for that long. So even if they're good for now, what's going to happen down the line, I don't know. So I can't really comment on that, but what one thing is that if they're cheaper, there's going to be probably demand on those. How would that have an impact on the market? It's interesting times, for sure. Barish, thanks for coming on to talk about it today. Of course, my pleasure. Okay, let's keep talking about the big trade deal announced this morning, being Canada and China. Mark Carney on the ground in Beijing this morning, he announces the deal. It does include electric vehicles made in China being allowed to enter the Canadian market, 49,000 Chinese EVs a year. And that's about, well, that's under 3% of the Canadian auto market. But that would scale up over time, expected to increase to 70,000 vehicles. Carney also suggesting that Chinese automakers could begin building electric vehicles in Canada in partnership with Canadian companies. It got Gary Mar, standing by to discuss. First, let's have a listen to Carney talking about these Chinese made electric vehicles. He says, look, these are going to be affordable vehicles for Canadians. Have a listen. An increasing portion of those exports will be in a new segment of the Canadian market. Okay, huge opportunity for affordable vehicles for Canadians. That's how Mark Carney's spending at this morning, Ontario Premier Doug Ford is furious over this. He says, this is selling out Canadian auto workers. Here's Ford speaking a short time ago saying Carney didn't talk to him about this, let's listen. It's going to hurt every single auto manufacturer, every single supply chain that has anything to do with the auto sector. This was not thought out properly. It wasn't consulted. It was a knee-jerk reaction as far as I'm concerned, and this is going to be a big, big problem. Okay. Doug Ford, oh, he had been pretty chummy with Carney, but it doesn't seem like he's very happy about this at all. Let's discuss with Gary Mar now, CEO of the Canada West Foundation, Gary's a former trade rep in Washington, D.C., Gary, thanks for coming on today. Oh, it's a pleasure to be on, always Mike. Thank you. Okay. Likewise, Gary, thanks for doing it. Congressman here, Canada, China, trade deal, what jumps out at you? Well, a couple of things, the biggest thing is that we're prepared as a country to step up from being in lockstep with the United States. People may recall that the 100% tariff on Chinese EVs was implemented in order to continue to be in lockstep with what was then the Biden administration's imposition of tariffs on EVs from China as well. And let's put this in context as well. I mean, Canadians bought 1.3 million automobiles last year, approximately. And this number of EVs that are going to be permitted in is set at 49,000. That is exactly the same number that it was before the tariffs came in. And it is restricted to EVs that are under $35,000 landed price of which I did a quick search this morning. I don't think that there are any EVs except for maybe a couple of kias that are in that price range. And so this is a different market segment. Now the suggestions that Premier Ford says that these are cheap and they're not going to be reliable or what have you. I mean, I'm old enough to remember when Scotas and Ladas were imported from Russia and I think Czechoslovakia is it then was. They didn't last very long because how are you going to service it? How are you going to get it fixed? How are you going to get it? So, for all kinds of reasons, unless there is manufacturing of these vehicles in Canada and an ability to service them, they're not going to be an important part of the marketplace for very long. So I think that Doug Ford is seeing it from a fairly narrow perspective, but the bigger perspective is Canada sending the signal that the United States is not the only place that we're prepared to do business with and I think that is quite a sea change. And I think that the Prime Minister has also said, look, we have to accept the world for what it is, not what we want it to be, and in spite of the fact that China has been a country that has in many ways been opposed to Western liberal democracies and done things, including to Canada that are inconsistent with our values and tried to interfere in elections and so on and so forth. We still have to figure out a way to deal with trade in a world that is not the way we want to be, but the way that it is, so I think that that's quite an important statement on his part. Now, let me say that the only thing that I think the Prime Minister could have done better on this is that if he had gone as part of his mission to go to places like Tokyo and Seoul before he went to China and worked with allies that are in the region that we already have great trade relationships with and who have bolstered their diplomatic missions here in Canada, that probably would have strengthened his position vis-a-vis negotiating with the Chinese saying that we actually have deals with these two countries being South Korea and Japan. And so we recognize that operating multilaterally with other partners in the region gives a strength vis-a-vis China. That's the only criticism that I have of what the Prime Minister tried to do. And finally, I'll say, Scott Moe has demonstrated that sub-national governments like the province of Saskatchewan has been criticized for traveling to China and sending ministers to China. It's actually been helpful. This is a great day for Scott Moe and for Kenola producers across Western Canada and seafood producers on both coast of Canada. Right. China expected to lower, terest dramatically on Kenola and some other products as well as part of this deal. Speaking to Gary Mar, Canada West Foundation, talking about the Canada China trade deal announced this morning by Mark Carney in Beijing. And a lot of expectation about what Donald Trump would say about this deal, would he be angry about it? And Trump has responded a short time ago, are going to play a clip from Trump here in a moment. First let's have a listen to Carney because Carney was asked in Beijing this morning, he said, "Look, are you worried about how Donald Trump is going to react to this? You seem to be turning away from the USA, turning to China instead." And here's what Carney said about that, comparing China versus USA as trading partners. Listen to this. The one comparison I will give you with the United States. Mark relationship, this is no insight, is much more multifaceted, much deeper, much broader than it is with China. Okay. China is a more predictable trading partner for Canada compared to the United States. Wow. Donald Trump, Gary, was asked a short time ago, his thoughts on this trade deal with between Canada and China. A lot of there was some speculation this morning was his head going to explode. Is he going to absolutely lose it here over this? And here's what he said. And this might surprise some people. Here's Trump, short time ago. How do you see the deals, Canada and China, I've just signed trade deals between the two partners. That's okay. That's what he should be doing. It's a good thing for him to sign a trade deal. If you can get a deal with China, you should do that. That's okay. That's a good thing. He's doing what he should do. Gary, your thoughts? Well, so this month, there are a number of Western liberal democracies that are going to China to try and sign similar types of deals. Kierstharmer, for example, from the United Kingdom is planning on going over there and there are others as well. So I think that, you know, this was an important piece for the Prime Minister and for the -- it may give more leverage to Canada as we talk about what our trade relationship is going to be with the United States. So as an example, in dealing with the U.S., I know Premier Four is very interested in critical minerals that are found in the province of Ontario, and they are found throughout Western Canada as well, British Columbia, Alberta's Saskatchewan in Manitoba. And maybe this gives us leverage to say we're prepared to do business with China. And so if the United States wants access to critical minerals, then perhaps we'll be able to sign a better deal. Maybe it's not going to be Kuzma 2.0, but at the very least, I think it gives us a little more leverage in our negotiations with the U.S. And so I would look at this deal from a much bigger perspective rather than just auto sector in Canola. It signals a much bigger agenda that I think the Prime Minister has thought through. And it's not clear to me that the President of the United States has done that. He seems very short-term in his thinking and very transactional in his behavior. But I think that Prime Minister Carney is trying to think of a bigger picture, a much more global picture than the President is. Gary, thanks for coming on with your thoughts on this today. Thanks Mike. Thanks for listening to the Mike Smith Show podcast. Can't wait for the latest episode to drop. Tune into the Mike Smith Show live from 9 AM till noon on 730. CKNW. Have a question or a comment? Send me an email. [email protected]. Thanks again for listening. Our Intel chain is compromised, new on Showcase. 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