WORLD CUP 2026: THE CONTENDERS

[MUSIC] Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the time and Sunday times. This is our third special World Cup preview show and after England and Scotland. This is the rather ambitious attempt to cover the rest of the world in one massive podcast. On this episode, we'll look at the favourites, the dark horses, the newcomers and the biggest stars hoping to shine on the biggest stage. I'm Tom Clark and joining me for this jam packed show. We have three of the top football writers from the times who will be covering many, many stories at the World Cup. It's Tom Allnop, James Gehrbrand and Paul Hurst. Team, welcome. Are we up for the challenge? Do we think we can do this? Cover basically every team. We might not mention every team, but we're going to do it. We're going to get a go, right? Your normal thing, Tom, isn't it? The Premier League, is it? You cover all clubs? You know what I'm talking about? We try and do all 20 on the Monday show, yeah. So we should mention all 40, I think. At some point in and out, we've got to try and work it in. Tom Allnop and James Gehrbrand with me in the studio in London, Paul Hurst joining me down the line. I've got your kind of itineraries here, so I'm going to run through some of the teams and big moments that you're going to be following. And I just like a sense early on, of what's the one team, what's the one game that you're going to that you're particularly excited about. Tom, I'll start with you. You've got some big hitters in there, some interesting clashes as well. You're at the opening game, of course. Mexico, South Africa. You've also seen Portugal, Netherlands, Egypt and Iran in there as well. Anything that you're particularly excited about before you head out. Maybe the game I'm not going to, which is a Curacao against Germany. I'm going to go to Curacao and you know, live how the Curacao and are living their first ever World Cup. So I won't be at the match, but I'll be sort of, you know, want to Caribbean Island, try and experience what's going on there. So it sounds like a terrible gig, right? It's a tough job, and it really is, and it honestly, James, well that you, you've got some really big, big hitters in there. Brazil, France, Erlinghal and Norway. Some of the more interesting, maybe dark courses that we'll talk about. Japan, Morocco. What's grabbing your attention? I think I'm really excited to follow Brazil in the group stage, as I think, I think Brazil is sort of, it feels like Brazil may be the best nation to follow in the group stage. You know, they're going to bring the colour, the noise, and I feel like, I feel like Brazil, they always seem to score one, like goal of the tournament contender in every group stage. Well, hopefully it'll be name our James, and after your brilliant piece, he'll run over to the press box and go, you know, kind of, that was for you, James. That was for you with a heart, you know, little heart celebration for getting him in there. Paul has joined in as down the line. I could hear him scoffing in my ear, Tom, at the same time, the idea that, you know, it's a real job that you get paid for to go to a Caribbean island and watch, and football. But, Hirstie, you've got it pretty good as well, yourself, mate. I mean, yours is a slightly narrower field to answer the question, what are you most excited about. But you are following Argentina and arguably the greatest player to have ever played the game in Lionel Messi. So, not a bad gig as well. Yeah, that's not a bad job, yeah. The Caribbean island aspect of Tom's cell, really, you know, that was a, it sounded quite appealing to me. But, yeah, no, I mean, I was just seeing Lionel Messi's last dance, if you will. You know, that is a huge, huge thing to get really excited about. And, you know, I've covered a few of their games in the last World Cup. I did the Saudi Arabia game, which was just a just an incredible game to be at. And I thought at that point that they were going home and like, sure, is how much I know because they were, they went on to win it. But, you know, Messi's just had such an up and down relationship with Argentina, with major tournaments, you know, started off so, you know, with a lot of hard break. And now, they seem unstoppable. He's one of his last three finals. So, yeah, no, it's all very, you know, it's settled for him to bow out with another one. Yeah. And I think let's start there because I'd like to look at some of the big nations, some of the favourites, because they've also got all got kind of big names who are to use, Cersei's phrase there that I think a lot of people will be using, having a bit of a last dance on the biggest stage. I think there's a theme that we're going to see in this World Cup, Johnny Northcrafts, actually writing a piece on this, on the Times website. Cersei coming back to you then on Argentina. What do you make of their team in terms of the research that you've been doing to prepare for the tournament? They've got some big names in there, you know, Julian Alvarez has had an amazing season for Athleticoma Drid, probably playing alongside Messi at this World Cup. That's pretty strong. Enzo Fernandez and McAllister in midfield. Nico Paz is an interesting young player who might play a part. Look at the defence and you've got some familiar faces in there. Christian Romero, Tottenham fans will be fully expecting him to turn up and look like the best defender in the world as he normally does at the international stage. What are you interested about when it comes to this Argentina team? It's just that, isn't it? It's the defence. And so it's the, you know, the, the hap has a nature of it. You know, Nico Tbendi is like in contention to the World Cup at the age of 38. And, you know, I remember I thought he was, you know, given his last rites after watching him play terribly for Manchester against Norwich in 2019. But he's so my whole, like, Clangan in there and he's part of this squad. And, you know, Tagliath Eko left back as well. I think he used to 33 and I'd never really been convinced by him either. But this is what Skullo and he does. He sticks to the players that he knows the best. He thinks that they've got a great kind of camaraderie, which is one of the reasons why they won it last time. They didn't have the best team last time, but they won it. And that happens, doesn't it, in World Cup? So it's, it's often the best tourist, the best kind of, the best group, the best, bunch of players in terms of a squad. They get you over the line and he's gone for the same this time. I think there's only, I think, 16 survivors from the last World Cup. And if you look at the team, there's probably only going to be one change, really. That's for Angal Di Maria, who's retired since last tournament. So he's, in terms of the squad, he stuck with the same, same names from last time. And, you know, you know, that's his, that's his formula. So he's, he thinks that's going to be enough to win it. Yeah, really interesting, isn't it? And, heresy remembering that Saudi Arabia defeat chaps and talking about this squad in this way of where maybe European viewers will look at it and go, well, you know, Messi, obviously, a great Alvarez brilliant, but don't know about the rest of it. They're in a group with Algeria, Austria and Jordan. You'd expect Argentinians to win that group. And it perfectly encapsulates how fascinating these tournaments can be. They could slip up against one of those sides, but then still make the final as they did last time, Tom. Yeah, I think Messi is a really interesting case. If you think about it, this is kind of the first World Cup that he's played with without pressure, like, probably for 20 years, since his first one in 2006, when he came in and he was just kind of a kid and everyone was like, wow, this guy is sensational, but equally there wasn't that sort of weight on his shoulders. He must win the World Cup, which basically happened to Messi in every other major tournament ever since, right? And this one, he goes into it. I don't know, I wouldn't say with nothing to lose, but it'll be interesting to see how we see Messi playing without that kind of pressure. And also, I think Argentina, without that kind of pressure, because that pressure has completely dominated the Argentinian team for the best part of two decades. And this time they go into the tournament, I quite like the way the Scalonia said, we're not going to win the World Cup, we're going to defend it. You know, almost as if they're the idea that this is our tournament now, and we can have that kind of confidence and play with that sort of freedom. So I'm looking forward to seeing Argentina. I completely agree with her, Steve. I think one of the biggest advantages, if you look at a lot of the major teams, Brazil, France, even England, you might say there's quite a lot of sort of Germany, a lot of people, a lot of question marks about who's playing where, the system, how does this fit in? Yeah. Actually, Argentina kind of know what they're about, whether or not it's good enough, like I don't look at their team on paper and think they have the best team, maybe, but they know what they're about, they know what they're sort of best eight or nine players are, they know the system, they know the manager, and I think in a World Cup like this, that's a big advantage. James, thoughts on Argentina as well, and potentially bringing Brazil, because there's kind of similarities, aren't there, with some of their team in terms of looking at the strengths that they've got in there, and then some other areas of the team where maybe we would look at it as Premier League fans and go, well, maybe that's not as strong, but the Brazil 11, Alison, Gabrielle Marquinios at centre-back, Gimarech, Casamiro midfield coming off the back with amazing season of Manchester United, and then any one of these forwards, Endrick, Gabrielle Martin, Elie, Ego Tiago, an amazing season, Cunia, Neymar, Ryan, Vanissius, Jr. It's pretty good. Yeah, Brazil are an interesting case, because I think if you look at it through the sort of prism of Brazilian teams, through history, I think everyone would say this is not a vintage Brazilian side, I think that's the answer you get when you talk to Brazilian people. But when you actually look at the team, you're looking at, you know, probably five pretty undisputed world-class players in Alison, Marquinios, Gabrielle, Magalais, and Rafiniar and Vanissius. And the other members of the team, you've got players who have had a pretty good Premier League season, maybe Cunia may start, potentially, potentially, Bruno Gimarech could start as well. A big weakness for Brazil in a kind of interesting area where they've traditionally been extremely strong is fullback. They've always had world-class fullbacks, it seems, and this is a moment where they really don't. So it's going to be interesting to see who plays in those spots and how that affects them. But I mean, I think they're still one of the teams that suddenly could win out, I think. Yeah, and in a group C with Scotland, Morocco and Haiti. For all of us, I think, for both teams, as we've started with them, they are just so iconic with the World Cup. I mean, for European football fans, for English fans, great kit. It's just the definitive World Cup moment, isn't it? Seeing Arjun Cena and Brazil, how important is it do you think for the World Cup for a great for it to be a great World Cup to have either Arjun or Brazil potentially both doing well, Tom or Stout. - Yeah, it's a good point. I mean, I think Brazil, it's funny, isn't it? Because I think in the last 20 years, Brazil and not the team that haven't won all the tournaments, right? There was a time when Brazil, you go into every World Cup and people would be like, Brazil are the favorites. That's not the case anymore. They're not this kind of team who have won everything in the last 10, 15 years. But they still stir the emotions, I think, more than any other team, right? Like if I think of a World Cup and even in this kind of age where you know all the players and you know all the teams, I mean, maybe not in this World Cup. There are so many, right? But in general, I still think Brazil has that romance. Like if you say to me, in three seconds, what is the World Cup? You think Brazil. You think the yellow shirts, the fans, the blue and green, that is what it's all about. And I think you're right. I think for a real sort of excellent World Cup, I think you need Brazil to go far. And I think one, you know, James has said about the players, but I think Angelotti is a really interesting story this World Cup. How does that work? You know, Brazil having a European manager, a very sort of European team, nearly all of their players playing in Europe. More and more, I think almost the sort of soul of Brazilian football is becoming quite European. You look in the sort of Brazilian league, some of the best coaches are sort of from Portugal and even the Brazilian club are sort of adopting European methods, you know, because of the way they're sort of selling players to basically funneling them to kind of European teams for huge fees. And now, the very top of the game, you've got Angelotti, you know, the kind of like benchmark European Italian tactician. How does that marry up, you know? And obviously we think that Angelotti is such a brilliant tall manager, managing the E-Ghost, managing the players. But can he do it, you know, on a non club stage? I think that's a great story. Yeah. I hope to stay on a comeback to you on two points that guys have mentioned in the studio. Firstly, on Argentina and pressure. Tom suggesting there that for Lionel Messi and for the nation itself, being the holders means pressure off. I'd slightly wonder whether actually it just piles a different type of pressure on to deliver the same joy in euphoria last time. What do you think? I agree with Tom. I think he's quite-- certainly in terms of the whole squad, they seem very relaxed and very ease with the fact that they are champions. And I think it is more or less a free hit for them. I don't think anyone-- there's not that much pressure on them really. I think there was certainly from-- I remember going back to the last World Cup-- the last World Cup in thinking, you know, it's really kind of-- Messi was really under the caution then to be married on it, you know, to be the kind of guy who led Argentina to glory and in a World Cup and be there. Almost be like the personality as well. But that's not him. And you see more of a restrained guy, more of a quiet, more of a shy guy. So I don't think he would ever kind of-- we would ever get him to say that he wasn't a pressure. But in his heart of hearts, he probably was really, really under pressure to kind of be the new Maridona and sort of deliver on that. And he has done in the last three finals, as I said earlier, Cup America and World Cup and they Cup America again. So I think they're in that groove now of being happy, being comfortable with that tag of being one of the favourites. And like Tom says, they are defending the trophy rather than actually going to win it. They think he's theirs to lose, basically. Yeah, interesting. And just quickly on the Brazilian aspect, we mentioned Casamiro, Mateus Cunio, James Picti, out there, both had very strong finishes to the season with Manchester United. You, of course, cover both Manchester clubs for us. That plays a big part in, you know, Ancelotti and what you can deliver at this tournament. You know, if you think about maybe nine months ago, the idea of Casamiro going into a World Cup, we would all maybe be disparaging and going, well, they've got no chance. Now they've got the guy who looks absolutely amazing. And all man United fans are thinking, well, how have we let this guy go? Yeah, well, yeah, certainly a year ago, you'd have put more money on Toby Colley, you know, the World Cup than the World Cup, given how he was treated at United. But yeah, I mean, the fact that he had at least, you know, one fixture a week helped him. Casamiro, I don't think he'd been a positions player every three days, which is why they've released him this summer. But then again, this World Cup, and how it is the format of it, he doesn't have to play all the three games in the group stages. Yeah. You know, why does he have to play against Haiti? You know, you could rotate the complete 11 for Haiti and win. And even if they come out of the groups with six points, they're probably going to top the group. It's just that I think that'll be interesting for the World Cup, where how much teams will rotate because it's just because of the sheer length of the tournament. You know, some of these squads could be away together for six, seven weeks. So you really got to keep everyone happy, keep everyone content. I think that's such a good point that has to raise, and it's something that we've been, that we've really seen in club football this season, particularly the Paisingermann, and you know, looking at like how few minutes the likes of Malkini or Sonuno Mendes played in the domestically. As Paul says, not only do you have the heat in the USA, the fact that it's at the event of a very long season, the fact that there's going to be one extra round compared to previous tournaments. But also I think the comparative weakness of some of the groups. You mentioned Argentinian group, for example. Yeah. I think a forwards an opportunity to potentially do a bit more rotation without, I mean, it's, you know, margins for a World Cup are always small, right? But I think there are a little bit more maybe this time than they were before. So I think there's maybe just a bit more of an opportunity to. With those third place teams as well as we have, obviously, no getting a chance to go through to the knockout stages. Mentioning quad strength and rotation, I think, is a good way of bringing in two other teams, two of the bigger teams, two of the favourites. France, of course, beaten by Argentina in the final last time. I mean, looking at their squad, goodness me, absolutely remarkable. I mean, I've got a kind of random 11 here selected, you know, mine on in goal, Cunday, Saliba, open Macarno, Hernandez, potentially, it left back, Turemeni, Rabio, and then a potential front for Alise, Cherokee, Dembele and Bappe. I mean, absolutely average. Yeah. I mean, they could have a back up front for, of Barclay, Due, Turam and Zaya Emery. I mean, that is absolutely extraordinary. And I mean, I wanted to bring Portugal in here as well, because we mentioned a lot on this show, the strength of Arsenal this season, and they've got the best squad. They've got the best squad in the league, they're the best squad in Europe. Portugal are being widely touted as having the best squad of all the European elite teams. I mean, you know, they've got a lot of PSG stars in there. When you've got a midfield of Vittinia and Jaunevers, we'll come onto the Ronaldo question in a minute. How are we looking at France and Portugal? James, you're going to be covering some France games, but Tom will start with you on Portugal, because they're a fascinating team, aren't they? Not just the Ronaldo question, but they're packed with talent. Cancelo, Diaz, Mendes, Vittinia, Jaunevers, Bruno Fernandez, off the back of the best season of his life, Rafael Liao, Pedro Neto, it's a brilliant squad. And then they've got this focal point at the top who might not do any running about, and you know, might burst into tears if he misses a penalty. Pretty can score. Yeah. I think you always get to this point before I do anyway, like before World Cup, where no one's really thought about Portugal. And then like a couple of weeks before he sort of look at some predicted lineups, and you think, actually that Portugal team is pretty good. Yeah, that looks better than anyone. And I think at this World Cup, I wonder with the heat, whether the midfield is going to be, you know, so key to so many games. And I don't look at many midfields and think that they're better than Portugal's. I think that, you know, I think that, you know, I mean, you didn't mention Ronaldo Silva, for example, who's had like such a fantastic season for City. And I think in these kind of games, where it could be about control and tempo, like, even if he doesn't start bringing on Ronaldo for the last 30 minutes, like what a luxury that is. Run around and kick a few people, win a few free kicks. Yeah. And you know, keep the ball of it as well. So I really like Portugal, but in truth, like, you know, I'm doing a piece about Portugal next week, so I spoke to a couple of people about them, and they're not that optimistic there. Like, people there are sort of like slightly down, I think, on their chances in part, because there's sort of a belief that Roberto Martin is not picking necessarily the best team. He's kind of picking the big names and that. Ronaldo is part of that, but I think, you know, Jalfelex, for example, is one of his favourites as well. Yeah. So whether or not they can kind of find that cohesion, I don't know, but I look at the midfield particularly, and I think that gives him a great chance. Who would kind of counter to Ronaldo be? You know, you've got Ramos. Ramos, yeah. On the bench, would it be Ramos from PSG? I think Ramos is the main alternative. Yeah. You could play two of them, perhaps in the group stage together. You know, so you have sort of one who kind of, you know, you do the running and I'll do the scoring. But I think instead of sort of just, apart from just Ramos as an alternative, it's almost like an alternative way of playing. It's almost like, we could have three players who are younger, who can run and press, and we have a midfield. There's a bit more sort of statesmen like where we keep the ball. But obviously with Ronaldo, we all know, like there's a way of playing that you have to basically create around him. And I think that's what Martin is going to go with. Yeah. James, on France, just absolutely packed with world-class talent. And I mentioned those kind of two options in forward areas. In terms of mentioning kind of easier groups for some of these bigger teams, that's maybe one of the more difficult ones. I think Senegal and Norway will give them really good games. But France have got to be expecting to get to a final again, in terms of. we've already talked about Argentina and expectations. There'll be huge expectation on this france group, weren't there? Yeah, they will be expecting to get to the final essay. I think, as we've said, I think in terms of the individual caliber of the players within the squad, I think it's probably the best squad at the tournament, really. I mean, there are fascinating team in many ways because obviously at times in the Dishon era, which has been pan out and it's really been an extremely successful era with one World Cup and two other major finals. But at times in the last major tournament of the year, as they looked incredibly, I think limited is the right word. It was just that remarkable start that they reached the semifinals without having scored other than penalty or own goal in any of the first five rounds. And through qualifying, again, they haven't looked. They didn't really blow teams away. They had a two-two draw against Iceland. But I think they will be formidable. I think they won't, again, I think they won't necessarily win games with free wee Ling football that tears teams apart if what we've seen in previous tournaments is any precedent. But I think Dishon is a manager to be hugely respected, I think. I mean, it's interesting that when we talk about the great managers in World Football, Antelot is name would always come up. And I think Diddy Dishon's name is very rarely in that conversation. Is that a style then, do you think? I think it's probably because of style. But if you look at, is it a man who's had four jobs in management and really has succeeded in all of them, taking more to a Champions League final, getting Juventus promoted back into Serie A after the Cardiopolis scandal, winning League A, with Marseille. And then with France, he's been very successful. It has to be said. Is that style then their only potential weakness? Do they have a weakness in the team? Do you think there's a weak area of the pitch? I mean, there doesn't seem to be one to me. I think if you just look at the team on paper, I think you're probably looking at that midfield pivot, which we're expecting to probably be Tremaine and Rabial. And you're probably thinking that that is the weaker part of the team, which we've played as, of course. Is there style of weakness? I suppose so in some ways that they can, you know, be it's being incredibly conservative at times, but it's an approach that has brought them a lot of success also has to be said. And they also do just have, they have moment, of course. They have moments where, you know, I remember the semi-final that they played against Spain at the Euros. And they were France took the lead. And obviously Spain ultimately came back to win that game, you know, Cardiopolis, brilliant match changing equaliser by Yamal. But before that equaliser, when it was one-nil to France, Spain were actually hanging on at times a little bit in that game. And so I think they, you know, they will have moments where that incredible power that they have will be hard to resist. Yeah, you mentioned Spain now. I want to come in and bring them in in just a second and Tom, I'll come back to you. But, host, you just any strong thoughts on François Portugal? Of course, I'm sure you'll probably patch your Bernardo Silver fan club t-shirt for this tournament. You'll be proudly wearing that. Bruno Fernandez, of course, again, another player at Manchester United who goes into this tournament in brilliant form. Any thoughts on Portugal or France from you? Yeah, I was very annoyed that you didn't mention Bernardo in that, you know, Portugal and that. First name on the injury every day. But yeah, they're in all seriousness. That is an amazing squad that Portugal have got up until you get to the 41-year-old baby up front, you know, he's just, it is. I just, I did quite a lot of Portugal games at the last euros and I just, he just stung the tournament out really for me and I just think it got to that point where everyone, you know, you'll never get a Portuguese player, criticizing Ronaldo, you know, they'll sell a great train, you know, oldspaper professional. But the surely must think in the half-harts that if he wasn't in this team that we could play in a different way, like Tom said, you know, they could have a more dynamic way of playing and they could be a better pressing team and, you know, I just think it's, that last World Cup where he was finally dropped and they played González Ramos in the game against Switzerland and they won 6-3 or 6-2, I think it was, was just like a bit of my Portugal. That could have been the team that went on to win that World Cup if they kept Ronaldo out of the team but they didn't, he holds so much sway over the Portugal, you know, over the nation basically, over the squad and the actual, you know, country as well that no one's really scared, you know, no one's really got the, you know, the gumption to say, come on mate, it isn't about time you, you know, shuffled off, you know, it isn't time, that time you, you know, went and retired. You have to be a very brave person to do that. Obviously Roberto Martinez is not the guy to do that. I just think it is, you end up with the possibility of wasting a huge opportunity to win a major trophy. I know they won the nation's league but, you know, not the same as it. But, you know, I just think if Ronaldo plays as badly as he did during the Euro's World Cup, I just thought he can come away from that with any other feeling than, you know, this is the shouldn't be the time for me to move on. Yeah, time you wanted to come in. I like her, Steve, telling one of the, you know, arguably the greatest player in the game to shuffle off. I mean, I feel like he's been influenced by his time, covering May and I, too. Yeah, we got, I do think if I could offer like just the slight flip side of my now, though, and I don't disagree with a lot of his points. But I think it's funny, like, because, you know, in the previous World Cup, there was such a kind of collective wave to sort of, from messy to win it, right? Like, and everyone, I think, as a neutral, sort of wanted messy to have that on his CV and for that kind of circle to be completed. And if people don't have the same thing with Ronaldo, and there is part of me, I've got to say that I know all the history on it, because I know all the sort of, you know, the baby stuff and that is completely true. I know Messi is so much, such an easier kind of person to kind of get behind. Yeah. But I think it would be great if Ronaldo won a World Cup. And there was, there would be something for me that like, what is he 41 now? Like, if he like, went away, almost like his kind of last thing was just to kind of have one last pushback against Messi. And so you thought he'd got it, but you haven't. And I know that, I would love that. Like, I know it's not the kind of, but he's one of the greats of the game. And when he leaves, like, the next World Cup with Jimmy won't be there, you know, maybe at 45. He will. He'll walk to you. You know, maybe we'll miss him. I mean, we'll be thinking he was. He was. Yeah. He was one of the greats. Maybe like, we did tell him to shuffle off of it too quickly. I do. I think it would be, if he went all the way to the final and won it, I think it'd be fantastic. You know what you need to do if you're in a press conference for Portugal, Tom. You just be like, not me, Mr. Cristiano, but my friend Paul Hurst thinks he's a jog on. There's a, there's a tantalising prospect. And let's, I wanted to bring in some of the other big nations as well. And we're talking about kind of huge stars who've established himself in the game. Let's talk about Spain and La Miniamal, one of the future stars, current stars of the game. Tom, again, it's another really strong team and another team like France that I think a lot of people are thinking, will we get France or Spain in the final there in group H with Uruguay and Saudi Arabia and Cape Verde. So again, another kind of group way to expecting them to be able to rotate to win the group comfortably. But it's another hugely strong team, who nice him on or David Ray in goal. Poro Kubasi, I think, probably playing at Centreback, maybe Lorente, Cucurea, Gavi, Fabian Rowees, who we all fall in love with at the Euros last time. Essentially Danny Almo and then Yomal and Williams on the wings was the kind of thing that propelled them to the European Championship last time. How are Spain looking at themselves? I think is a good question because we've talked about that with some other nations. I think they're confident. I do think they're right in there in the mix to win it again. If you look at sort of the pedigree of the Spain team, one in the Nations League, I think, in 2023. I forget about all these tournaments. Then obviously one in the Euros lost to Portugal in the final, I think, in the 25th of the Nations League. So we could be talking here about a team of going into the World Cup, having won their last three international tournaments, as it were. I think there are question marks. Williams, for example, was so important in the last one. It was all about the two wingers, the Lameen and Williams, right? But actually, Nika Williams has had a pretty rubbishy season, really affected by injury. His form has been quite poor, so they have to find a solution there. The experience, the captains triumph of sort of Roderie, Marata and Carverhala, Marata and not in the squad now. So it feels like a slightly younger team without the kind of traditional captains. Roderie has obviously had a bit of a little in and out season for City in terms of injury. But I do think, if I kind of come back to that point about, we talk so much about England and I know that all the kind of debate about where England are. But I always think at the end of a World Cup winning England lose, you sort of think who could keep the ball for England? They never have that pivot player who can keep the ball. You know, in a major tournament, you always get out passing out played in the end by someone better. And you think about Spain, you didn't mention Petri there, who I think is probably, you know, arguably, you know, perhaps the best player in the world. world at the moment. And if you go into a tournament with someone like him who can just run a game for you and keep everything ticking over, and that's before you even talk about Roddry and Super Mendy, you've got a midfield three there and probably not all three of them are going to start, but players who can just keep the ball. And I think in a tournament like this, I think that's going to be so important. And yes, Lamin is the X-Factor, right? And he's coming in the question mark as well because he picked up a hamstring injury in April. I think there was Delafone said yesterday that he looks like he's going to be fit to start. He doesn't need to, does he? Really? In the first two or three games, he can probably ease him in. But he's the X-Factor they have. And I think if we looked back over the last kind of ten years, Bain always had good passes. But what Lamin gives them is someone who can beat you. You know, who can go past you one on one and score. And he could be the big star of this tournament, right? Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of kind of strong teams with some potential question marks, James wanted to ask you about Germany. Absolutely fascinated by them. We've got Constantine Ekner working on a piece, which I set in the challenge of kind of the big mystery. How good a Germany. And I'm not sure we know the answer to that question partly because of their team. Fascinated to see Manuel Noia recalled in a very kind of England of 20 years ago, panic move with the squad announcement. We thought he'd quit. We thought he'd left coming back in. He's two years older than the manager, Julian and Nagel'sman. They've got some good players in there. They've got some very talented young players in there, Mousiala as well as obviously very established Len at Karl. But I look at their team and don't necessarily think, wow, would that be fair? So I think with Germany, Germany had just to sort of go back over the last kind of 10 years of the German national team. Germany I think were genuinely quite bad between sort of 2016, maybe up until about 2021, 2022. They had five, six years in really in the doldrums. I think at the last two major tournaments, they've actually played quite well, but they'd just sort of fallen on the wrong side of the margins, if you like. I mean, the 2022 World Cup, they had this incredibly, this incredible statistic that if you look at all the teams at the end of the group stage, ranked by expected goal difference, Germany would top out of all 32 teams. So in the first place, they'd been knocked out. Wow. Just because they, you know, that's sometimes a hard tournament football is. And then again, at the last year, I was actually felt Germany when they played Spain in that quarterfinal. I felt at that point it was a meeting of the best two teams in the tournament. And so you're kind of looking for them to, you've kind of been looking for them to kick on under you, the Nargussmann, who as we know is a very highly rated, very kind of tactically intellectual type of manager. But it hasn't really quite happened over this kind of qualification cycle. There's still a feeling, I think, that Nargussmann, you know, hasn't quite, you know, got the most out of the squad or kind of, you know, hit. He's not maybe doing his own, his best work of his career yet. And I also think if you look at the squad, the squad is just not quite as good as the one they've taken to the last two major tournaments. You had a real loss of class and intelligence and experience with Tony Klaus in Kajgundoan. The Gillesaune is no longer there. Thomas Mula is no longer there. Huge kind of loss of some really big figures in German football. So I think they, to me, they don't belong to that real group of favourites to win the tournament. Yeah, interesting. And we're going to talk about Netherlands in the second half of the show because I'm absolutely fascinated by their group F, Japan, Netherlands, Sweden and Tunisia. But coming back to some of these big teams we've talked about, I think we've kind of covered the favourites, not including England, of course. There is that already preview show in the game feed as well. Just to kind of wrap up this part one. And if you were picking a team to either win or two teams to get to the final, where are we looking over the ones we've mentioned? And it can be a surprise package. It can be the very conventional straight down the line. It'll be France. And, hopefully I'm going to cut start with you on this one. Yeah, I think France, I just, that, that team you, that team you read out earlier is just, just incredible. I agree, you know, maybe Rabiou's, you know, not the best bit for you in the world. But again, it comes back to what James was saying about Deshamp and about the managers like knowing there what works best for them and what works best for them over a long period of time. And I think Elise is one of my favourite plays of the season. I just think he's an outstanding player, very, very skillful, very direct. So I just think he'll be, you know, he's the, the tournament's kind of settled for him to shine, I think, like Elise. And then just speak for a personal perspective, I've seen a lot of round-chirky in the second half of the season and he's just grown with confidence. I mean, he didn't lack confidence in the start off, obviously. He's just kind of gone through the roof in the second half of the season. He's such a, such a real, real kind of tallies man, a real, you know, a flair player who can pull a trick out of nowhere and I just, a real looking forward to seeing if he can do it on the, on the international stage as well. Yeah, Tom. I think Spain is slightly boring, Joyce isn't it, but I just think they've, they've got a settled team, they've got nice mix of youngsters, people who can pass. I think they'll go far. If he feels like it has gone at this tournament, is it, what's that stat the European teams don't win in South America or North America? Yeah, true. Yeah. I feel like Spain have a sort of South American style about them, you know, anyway, like so. I think, no, I think they'll do well. Yeah. James, thoughts? I think maybe I could see Brazil winning it under, I mean, you know, under an shoulders management, I think, you know, it's maybe their time. I think it's been, it's been 24 years since their last World Cup triumph. I think if I was, if I was ranking the teams by strength, I don't think I'd have Brazil at the top. I think I probably would have France, Spain. It's the two strongest teams, but I just, I just have a feeling for Brazil. Yeah, interesting. I think Portugal could be a contender. Just to finish then, we've mentioned so many big names. I barely mentioned a bloke called Killian and Bapé, of course, he's quite good. He did it all right in the last World Cup, but Yamal and Bapé, Messi, Ronaldo, Neymar, which of these players do you think are going to have the beef influence? And it can be an influence in any way. I'm going to leave it broad. I'm not going to ask you who is going to be the best player, who's going to be the top scorer. But who do you think is going to maybe make the most headlines of all these big players? Yamal, start with. If I could push back a little bit on France, there's no logic to it, but I sort of wonder if I know they've got an amazing team, but it just feels like, I think one of the biggest problems is finding the best position for Dembele and Bapé. Because they haven't quite got this mix in the front three, who's playing down the middle, who's playing off the left, who's the guy who sort of scores goals, and who's the one we kind of give the freedom to. And on Bapé, it's had such a weird season. He's had such a turbulent time at Real Madrid with the injury, with that weird petition where millions of people said they didn't want to play at Real Madrid. He was like, on holiday with his girlfriend, and everyone went absolutely nuts about it before the class co-write. He's had a really tough season despite scoring a lot of goals. It just feels like, to me, he's coming into a tournament where he's got a lot of emotional baggage, and I just wonder if it's the kind of thing where it doesn't quite work. And we might see this France team slightly surprised in not a good way. It's a very interesting dynamic for Day Shant to navigate because you've got, you know, Dembele, a guy who is coming off the back of two Champions League. There's a stat which has been doing the rounds. And the Ballon door, of course. Which is that no one has ever won two World Cups, two Ballon door and two Champions League. Because Uzman Dembele be the guy, you know, maybe he could. But so you've got Uzman Dembele, a guy who's won the last two Champions League, you know, two better seasons at club level than on Bappé really. And it's, you know, a more hard-working player. And then you've got on Bappé on the other hand. And it sort of feels like, well, you know, you know, Dembele should kind of have, you know, maybe it's the wrong, you know, it feels like the team maybe should be getting around Dembele's strengths. He's the man in form. But the problem is killing on Bappé for his work in a French shirt kind of has to be top dog. You know, if you, if you, if somebody said to you, pick the top 10 international footballers of all time, and you've got, you, and Bappé, you have to be in the conversation. You have to consider him. That's, that's how good his international career has been for France, whatever his shortcomings at club level. He kind of has to be top dog. So I think it's sort of fascinating that it's dynamic for, for the, in terms of potentially making headlines. If you don't say name after the answer to this question after your brilliant piece, then quite frankly, what are you even doing here? But any players that you think could grab the headlines in a positive or negative way? Well, I think the name of definitely will be at the centre of, he will be at the centre of something, whether he doesn't play because he's injured and there does indeed seem to be a little bit of a cloud over, you know, how much part he can play in the group stage, whether, you know, he will fall out and launch a lot of, whether he'll, you know, let's be fair, he's a brilliant player with an incredible record international level, whether he does come into the team and has a real say for this Brazil team, you know. He's really, he's really pushing this as an e-tomon, he's really making sure that, you know, final, final of the World Cup, Brazil are there, all the great names, and somewhere there's just this bloke and everyone's like, who the hell is that? As James Geairbrand in there with Namar side by side, the bloke who made it happen. Hershey just wrapping us up on that big name point just before we go to a much needed break, we've got so much to try and cover. Any of those big names it can be for a positive or a negative reason that you think they'll steal the headlines? You have to come back to Ronaldo again. I think it's just he's, you know, loving more hate him. He's the center of attention. He loves being the center of attention. And you know, that is, I'm not gonna decry that. I love that. I love the fact that, you know, he, we've been writing about him for so long now that it's just become, you know, part of a, we're part of the soap opera, aren't we? - Yeah. - We feel the soap opera. And even though I did call him a baby earlier, as, you know, that's, I do think that, you know, he is the ultimate kind of superstar in terms of the media attention and how much, you know, how much attraction he gets, you know, he don't Trump even knows who he is. So he's got to be famous, doesn't he? So there you go. - Absolutely, loads more still to come. In part two, a little quiz question to text to the break couldn't resist. And as in the 2010 World Cup, this tournament will open with Mexico V South Africa 16 years ago, that game finished one all. And of course, we all remember Shabba L.R.'s goal for all of Africa, but who equalized for Mexico? Find out after the break. Welcome back to the game, football podcast from The Times. And Sunday Times, I'm Tom Clark. I've got Tom Allnut James gear round and Paul Hirst with me for this jam packed World Cup preview show, trying to cover the rest of the world. The answer to the quiz question that took us into the break was James Rafael Wilkhead. - Rafael Wilkhead. - Rafael Mark Heirs 147 Caps, five World Cups, a remarkable player for Mexico. Absolutely fascinated by Mexico at this tournament, by the way, just a quick mention for them. One of the co-hosts, of course, and also three of the best kits I think you've ever seen at a World Cup, lovely green, white awake it. And then they've just threw out a brilliant third oesha all in black, so, so classy. Make sure you're following The Times in the coming weeks. We'll be putting this show out before this weekend, before the World Cup begins. There's loads and loads of brilliant stuff, go and buy a copy of The Times. There's this brilliant, brilliant guide in there as well. We've got our kind of wall guides that going out this weekend as well, loads and loads of brilliant stuff. We've got articles on Luca Modric, Antoine Semenio, Fabio Canavaro, Spain, Germany, Cristiano Ronaldo, Killian and Bappé, loads and loads to come, make sure you're following The Times and all these journalists on all social media channels. Guys, first question for part two, Dark Horses and Surprise Packages. 'Cause I mentioned that group with Air with Holland, Netherlands and Japan, potentially. I think Japan are really fascinating, Norway as well with Erling Harland. Turkey, I loved Turkey at the last year. I was absolutely one of my favorite teams. I really hope they do well again. Any contenders for the Dark Horses or Surprise Packages category, Tomos Lutley? I think Norway, I like that team. Is it Austria, have been before, maybe Turkey, or nearly always the kind of Dark Horses? I think Norway, that team, and probably everyone's going to say the Dark Horses, and they'll probably disappoint. But it looks like they've just got a lot going for them. They're qualified qualification campaign, which is really impressive. Obviously, it edged out Italy and in that group. I think it was 8.00, like Winslosses draws, which is, I think they could see the five goals or something. And you look at the players I've got, obviously Harland, Oda Guard, Oscar Bob, Nusa. You've got some really nice, talented team. And I feel like, just generally, if you think about Norwegian football, I belagliant, I'm doing so well in Europe moment. Now, they have this feeling that things are going the right direction there. And it's a great story. They haven't been in a World Cup, but don't think since '98, right? When they beat Brazil, I think, in that tournament. I mean, it's been a long time coming. It's a really interesting group. And I think they could go well. Yeah, James. For me, Norway are where Belgium were at in 2014. They've got brilliant players. They've stormed through qualifying. You look at the team and think, yeah, they could do really, really well. But I think it matters that it's their first-- maybe it shouldn't matter that it's your first major tournament. Maybe it should just be why should it matter. But I think it does. I think it's a come to your first major tournament as a country after, I mean, literally decades. Without getting to a major tournament, I think it's really hard. I think you need to get sometimes a tournament or two under your belt before you reach your peak. A bit like where Belgium were at in 2014, where they needed a couple of tournaments before they were probably at their best at the 2018 World Cup. My Dark Horses, Ecuador. Yes. Yes, Ecuador. Absolutely. Any particular reason why? Not just Moses Kaisedo, of course, it feels-- I think they've got really good team. Defense is probably their strength. They've got a Hincapier, Pachar, PSG, or Don Yes, from Club Bridges. They really like-- and I think their results in all the flying have been hugely impressive. I think they are right up there for Dark Horses. Absolutely. As well as in a groupie, Curaçao, Ecuador, Ivory Coast, and Germany as well. It comes back to that point in part one about Germany. That could be a really tricky group for them. The other thing that's really interesting about that group is it's a group that you arguably don't want to win because the winner of that group is on course for a loss, 16, again, from Ligans France. Yeah, absolutely. Every time I've done the Times World Cup prediction, I've got Germany being knocked out by France very early on in the knockout stages. And, host the Any Dark Horses or teams that you're particularly excited about that we've not mentioned already? Again, Norway. Ireland is really up for this World Cup. We've spoken through a couple of times this season. And he mentions it. Whenever we mentioned the World Cup, he had like big smile. And he was really, really excited about it. And he started to get to his best level towards the end of the season. And he was also injury free. In fact, when Pep rested him on the last game of the season, Norwegian journalist text me saying, "There's a really reason why Ireland's not playing." He was thinking, "Oh, he's in English." "Falling." And he was like, "Oh, no, yeah." So I asked, they said that. He said, "No, he's just rested." And the Norwegian journalist replied, "Tell Pep in the press conference after, thank you from the entire nation of Norway." That is. So, yeah, they're all very excited about it, how on their particular? And like Tom was saying about Bodo, Glenn Tiles, I saw them beat City earlier this season. And they were just remarkable, really good. They've got three players in the squad. And I just think there's a general kind of feel, good factor around them. So, yeah, I've quite fun to see them to get through, even though it's a really, really difficult group. Yeah, big character on a big stage as well. I mean, I've mentioned them already, but Japan, I think, could be a really interesting team to watch. And that group is fascinating. Group F, Netherlands, because I think we didn't mention them in part one. They've got a really strong squad. They've got another one of those squads that you look at and go, "Oh, good players. Good players. Experience players should do really well, right?" But then they're in a group with Tunisia. No, that won't be an easy game. Sweden and Graham. I mean, what a great story that is. We've not even mentioned that. Graham Potter is going to a World Cup, everybody. Remarkable, remarkable stuff. If someone had had that in the kind of guest prediction card at the start of the last season, you would have been very, very impressed. West Ham fans, not particularly congratulatory, anything. No, I don't think so. I don't think so. But, again, another interesting team and another interesting name in terms of Victor Yoko-Rez leading the line for them, had a strong end to the season. Well, lots of people, including our pal Gregor Roberson, still questioning him. So that'll be fascinating, too. One is to bring in the question around African nations. Senegal, we didn't mention James in that group in the conversation earlier. But a really strong team. You've got other nations as well, Morocco. Morocco. Packed with brilliant star players. Ashraf Hakemi, as well, in terms of listing some of the accolades that players have won. He's going into this tournament, having one brilliant, brilliant amount of trophies and alls. What do we think of some of the African nations going into this tournament? Anyone that particularly catches your eye? James will start with you. I think Senegal looked to have the strongest squad to me. So I would probably go with them, I think. Yeah, I think there's a chance that England could be meeting them at some point, isn't there a long way, depending on your permutations, Tom? I quite like the African teams. I think Senegal, Morocco, you know, went to the semis in Qatar. Yeah. You need it, not like a particularly sexy team, but like, defend really well, really hard to beat. I think they've got quite a kind group. Yeah. I feel like those three teams could all do quite well. And, you know, you wonder how the kind of African nations final would affect Morocco, Senegal. Like, well, they'd both kind of come out of it if you're not there, kind of have a point to prove. And I think Morocco have had a bit more upheaval. They changed the manager. But I like them both, you know, I think in their qualification camp, they both look like they even have every coast as well. I think, you know, I've got a decent team. So I want to remind you. I've got one of Yandhi and Manday as well. One of the players is going to be hotly sought after this summer. Yeah, exactly. So I think after a few years where maybe African teams have been slightly quieter, save Morocco, I think this could be a good welcome for them. Yeah, Egypt's as well. Mo Salah having a last dance as well. We didn't even mention him in terms of some of the older players that are going out. Horsley, any of the teams we've mentioned there, any of whom if you feel we missed out? Yeah, I've recosed again, like Tom says, quite like the idea of seeing Armadon on the big stage as well. It was one of my favorite plays, really kind of hard work in player. But yeah, Morocco, I didn't cover Morocco quite a lot in the last work up. And they were just a brilliant team to watch. Hikimi is probably the best, best right back in the world, isn't he? And he's, he's, he's been a key player for PSG over the last couple of seasons. So really looking forward to seeing them. But yeah, I think there's quite a, quite a big selection who could go through, but yeah, I've quite fancy seen every course too well. Yeah, Brahim Diaz as well, a fascinating angle to the Morocco situation as well. Ian Hawke's potentially going to write a piece on them in the coming weeks, keeping it on the Times website. Let's just run through some of the first times you've got Jordan, Kurosau, Kate Verde, Uzbekistan. Uzbekistan and the team for me, partly because of their manager. Fabio Canavaro, 20 years on from lifting the World Cup, of course, with Italy, 20 years on from them willing the ball on door. He's managing Uzbekistan. I think this was probably passed a lot of people by. What if you said Canavaro will be at the World Cup with Uzbekistan but not with Italy? Yeah, exactly. Well, that's the theme of a piece that Alison Rudi's gonna write. You've got not got Italy there, kind of a perception of a dirt of like managerial talent within the Italian game. And you've got Canavaro, whose managerial career has included Al Nasser, Guangzhou, China, national team, a litterspell at Udenese, but Dino Mozaagreb and then went to Uzbekistan and take some to a World Cup. Fantastic achievement. And some of the other new nations that are gonna be there as well. Whilst we're mentioning new nations, I wanted to get your thoughts on the challenge that I've set myself guys. I am gonna try and watch every single game at this World Cup. I'm gonna work through the night UK time so that I can speak to all of you from the games. And I just wanted to run through some of the thrillers that I've got to look forward to. There's a particular day that I'm excited about. June 16th into June 17th. So I'll just give you a run through here using our brilliant Times Wall Chart. 2 a.m. I'm gonna start with a Ranvene New Zealand. Nice. Then I have a bit of a break. Then I come back and get France Senegal, 8 p.m. Nice. You know, have a bit of breakfast, get ready. Wait, is 2 a.m. and then 8 p.m. Yeah, so I've got a little sleep in the middle. You know, change some nappies, had a bit of a sleep. Got up for my night shift, start with France Senegal. Then I've got Iraq, Norway at 11 p.m. Pretty good. I'll be there, I think. Yeah, absolutely. We'll be chatting, James. We will be chatting. Got to keep the vibes coming for me on that one because I've got to then stay up for Argentina, Algeria. Hursty, you're gonna be there for that one as well. So you've got to help me shuffle through to 5 a.m. and Austria V Jordan. What a 24 hours that is, guys. I mean, if this job isn't a privilege, I don't know what is. That is P-Walk-Up, isn't it? I mean, just doesn't get better than that. Everyone in here is laughing at me. You need France Senegal to be good, I think. If that's a Neil Neal in the middle of that, that's gonna be a real moral. Exactly, exactly. And there's a few other belters as well along the way. I was showing this to my wife and she was just questioning my life choices. But we've also got New Zealand Egypt at 2 a.m. at one point. This is maybe the South Africa South Korea at 2 a.m. Pretty good. When the game start doubling up, Kate Verde, Saudi Arabia is on at the same time as Uruguay, Spain, that's gonna be quite tricky. But I think maybe the truest test will be Jordan Algeria at 4 a.m. on June 23rd. Make sure you're listening so the daily podcasts from the game and see what analysis I can provide from that game. Loads of brilliant stuff. I'm looking forward to it. I should just mention at this point as well before we come to the end of this show, we are gonna be doing a special episode with Peter Rutsler. He is following Team USA throughout the tournament, so we're gonna look a bit closer at host nations. He's just on his honeymoon at the minute, so it's a decent excuse for missing this show. But when he's back next week, we'll be chatting to him. Chaps, anything we've not mentioned, not covered, it is the impossible task of kind of previewing the rest of the world in a 1 hour podcast. But any teams, any players, just before I get to the end, I'm gonna ask you for a kind of big prediction to wrap up. But anything that you feel that will grab the attention, anything that listeners and viewers to this on YouTube should be keeping an eye out for. James, you can say Brazil and name are again, if you like. No, no, I don't want to say Brazil and name are again. I like picking a nation completely at random, but I'm fascinated to see the same group as Brazil, how I hate to get on. Yeah. Their second World Cup played in 1974, I think. And they've actually got some, they've got a real interesting mix of some really, players who have played in the Premier League, like Jean-Rékin a Belagard and Wilson Isidot, where obviously you know, your players who are playing sort of like, you know, in the American second vision. I think there's actually, there's one player in the squad who actually plays his club football in Haiti. I think it'll be, you know, fascinating to see how they get on. Yeah, absolutely. A warning sign for Gregor Robinson and Johnny Northcroft there in terms of Hatties' potential brilliance. That is the big first game, isn't it? Are anyone worried for Gregor? On that one, I'm a little bit worried for him, yeah. Yeah, I'm worried for him. Gregor Robinson will be joining us for another Scotland show. Tom, in terms of James's point there, anything that you've caught your eye that maybe in your preview prep. Can I say Donald Trump? Yes, you are allowed to say Donald Trump. I wonder if like, will he try and sack Pochettino, like Mid-Torrentment? If they don't be, who have they got the first game? Paraguay. Well, he sort of say, I always say Argentinian managers work as good as Americans. And he's like, you know, putting his truth so sure that it's tight. He'll think of Pochettino like, you know, television presenter who he can just kind of get rid of, right? So like, I can imagine Poch will then have to sort of go and have a meeting with Donald Trump in the White House and they'll have to square it out, you know? Yeah, I mean, Trump is going to say something, right? Trump is going to be a part of it. He's definitely going to be a big part of this. There's also the fact that we need to keep stressing that this is a co-host. There's three, three host tournaments, the three host nations for this tournament. I think a lot of people keep forgetting that. It's not just a USA-based tournament. Has any names, any players, any nations, any storylines that you think that we've not mentioned yet? Well, I was just going to, I was interested about Vinicius. I was going to ask James about Vinicius. You know, this is a guy who's like, when a vibe is seen, he's been, you know, a remarkable player. You know, really, one of the top five players in the world. Yeah. How key will Vinicius be to Brazil James? Is he, you know, is he the man kind of guy now? I think, I think, I think, I think, Catchalotti was, I think, he gave some interview recently where he said Brazil have, we have two of the top five players in Brazil without specifying. But I'd sort of, I think, believe that he was referring to Vinicius and Raffinia. So I think Vinicius is, I think he kind of is the main man. You know, I think, with, I think Neymar's role is, is, is, is not that of the main man anymore. Especially with the injury kind of concerns over him that his kind of slight, you know, the, his lack of consistent football. I think Neymar's more, and role now is more of the kind of the elder statesman who, you know, might come on and, you know, have 20 minutes of magic somewhere along the line. But I think, yes, I think Vinicius probably, Vinicius and Raffinia, I think are the guys who have got to step up, I guess, for Brazil at this tournament. Absolutely. So I'm just going to say, it feels like a World Cup of Managers, right? Like this must be the most stacked tournament in the history of the game in terms of, you know, elite managers. You know, you've got two cool, Potschotino and Chalotti, who, by my say, Sean, like, you've got some really good club managers who I think have taken jobs with the countries. In part, maybe because it's such a big and like seismic tournament in the USA, but also because of the way the club game is now. It's quite nice to kind of manage countries. You should have think, how is that going to affect? Like, is it going to be a tactical tournament? You know, are those kind of changes, you know, in extra time, going to make the bank a big difference? It might be a tournament where the kind of the managers also kind of take center stage. Yeah, that's a good final take to end on there. We'll have to wrap it up. Tom, all not Paul has. And James Gibran, thank you very much for joining me on this jam packed show. Make sure you're following all three of them on their social media platforms out there in USA, Mexico and Canada. Of course, we'll be keeping you up to date with all the latest from the tournament next week. And we will be doing daily shows. Don't forget that daily workup shows. So this won't be the last you'll hear of them or of the amazing teams and players that they're covering. That's it for now. Thank you for listening. We'll be back with another show very soon. See you there.