WorkPossible: You Can't Lead What You Don't Understand with Karen Richards

[MUSIC] >> We're Nick Lumberdino in Zach Blumentfeld, co-founders of CultureCon. Welcome to a special series on the CultureCon podcast, WorkPossible. >> This series is brought to you in partnership with our friends at FANA, a global employee experience agency who designed great work days for happier people, stronger teams and better businesses. Just like us, FANA believes in human experience design and big business impact. >> In each episode, FANA will host conversations that push us to reimagine and redefine what it means to experience work with people who are pushing what's possible in employee experience from first-halos to FAN farewells. The WorkPossible series starts now. [MUSIC] >> Okay, everyone, well, welcome back to WorkPossible. It's our special series from the CultureCon podcast. I'm Elaine Page, Chief People Officer for Zinnia and Chair of FANA's Board of Advisors. >> And I'm happy to roach, co-founder and strategy chief at FANA. In a world where truthfully the workplaces completely being redefined on a daily basis, what we're trying to do is ditch the checklists and totally reimagine what leadership, culture and employee experience could really look like. So this podcast is about no scripts, no safe answers, just real talk about what's possible if we've been the playbook. And today we're getting into something that sits at the heart of everything that we talk about on this podcast. And that's how do we actually get leaders to care about culture? Not just to say the right things in town halls, but genuinely understand it, invest in it, and lead through it to understand the reality that performance, profit and experiences that we design for our employees are really fundamentally the same conversation. >> Yeah, and that is why we are so thrilled today to be joined by Karen Richards. She's the founder and managing partner of a firm called Uniquely Global. UG is a leadership development practice with a core specialism in emotional intelligence. I'm really lucky I've gotten to know Karen quite well over this past year or so. And Karen is just a world class executive coach who works with leaders at the highest levels across all types of industry. And she uses EI as a foundation in her practice to help drive both leaders own performance and that of their people. And I think that's what makes Karen really unique is it's the combination of helping the leaders and helping the leaders then help their people, which I love that distinction. And so in essence, the culture that she works on is helping them guide them to lead in ways that actually build the right types of cultures, healthy, vibrant, psychologically safe cultures that companies claim they want. And so you're going to call Karen if you need that type of support. I know I certainly do. So anyway, Karen, welcome to the work possible podcast. We are thrilled, delighted and so honored that you're here with us today. Thank you very much. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you for coming. And you know, you have got a fascinating remit of work and scope of work of the sort of businesses and organisations that you've worked with. You've worked globally. We're talking global iconic brands from hospitality to premiership for all clubs and everything else in between. So when you think about all the conversations that you have, and let's go for the last sort of six months and you're working with some of the most senior leaders in the business, tell us about the gap and the opportunity that we have now. You know, when you're having these conversations, what are leaders actually saying in those rooms about culture? When the doors are closed and we don't know about people teams in there, what do they understand about it? What does that chat look like? I guess in the first instance, every leader wants performance. Everyone is being benchmarked and measured by what they perform, what they deliver for their people, for their organisations, for their shareholders, for the owners of the business. So they want a culture that promotes that. I think understanding that and understanding how do they provide that environment for their teams and their people to be successful and understanding where the role that they, as the most senior leaders or the most senior leaders within their teams, what they do to provide that. I think often that's where the gap lies. A gap and the opportunity. I don't know that these always fully understood that the behaviours at the most senior levels are actually the ones that will determine culture. Yeah, it's so true, isn't it? It's that shadow of a leader kind of concept and people forget like everyone's listening and waiting and watching to see what leaders do. I talk about that a lot. You can't just assume that people will know what to do. They're watching you and however you behave is how they'll behave, right? It becomes very systemic. So yeah, really, I really do think that's right. And I think, you know, a lot of times too in those rooms, I bet you hear this all the time, like, what do we need to fix our culture? We need to fix something that something is not always apparent to leaders, right? So how do you think about that and how do you get underneath that when you hear that question asked of you? If you're working with an individual, so on a one-to-one basis, I would say odd-son, 95% of the time if not 100, they absolutely have an instinct as to what the issue is. They're not trusting their instincts, they're not listening to them or they don't want to listen to them because their instinct is telling them something that maybe may not be palatable to them. I, as a coach, would encourage them in the first instance to really understand what their instincts are telling them why and then let's look at where we think that they will may not be happening and why it's happening. So I mean, if I could bring that a little bit more into reality, I think the vast majority of times in any leadership capacity are instincts of bang on. The issue is always what that instinct is telling us and that call to action. What should I be doing, not doing about it? The classic, is it me? If I'm lower in my confidence, then I may not always want to accept the fact that it's me equally. What is it that I'm managing or not managing around my team? And I think before you've got that understanding for yourself and for your senior leadership team, the fixing bit, it's never going to happen. Yeah, so true. It's really true that I've got it. So resonates with me. If you can't name it and you're not willing to lean into it and talk about it, then it's not going to fix itself. And it's so amazing to me how leaders can avoid that. They just, it feels messy to them. It feels complicated. It feels emotionally draining. It feels fluffy, but it's that work that you're talking about. You do about yourself, like you trust yourself. You're in a self. And then you sort of know where you're going wrong and are you willing to address it or do something about it? It's hard because I could have coaching or coaching period is hard because you're sort of peeling back the layers of people and making them look at themselves in the mirror, right? Yeah. And I think often the biggest gap is when an individual understands the challenge. Their instinct tells them more about themselves or about their team than they're willing to embrace and maybe believe. But ultimately they also know that that that there is no solution without you being the catalyst and the conduit for what it is that you want. Do you think, and I'll shut up, Hatty, and I'm asking all the questions today, but I'm just a kind of curious, but do you think that in those boardrooms you're in and in those leadership rooms that you're in, that culture features enough in the conversation? I believe culture is fuel. So for me, you can have the greatest product, you can have the greatest systems, you can have the most amazing processes and everything else. But ultimately it will come down to how the business feels and the people feel, so not the business feel sorry, but how the people feel so that how they feel is what they give and maybe we'll talk a bit more about that. So no, I don't think so because I think everyone focuses on how do we build this wonderful business. We've got this amazing product, we've got all these processes, we've got all these systems and the bit that never gets discussed about enough is are we going to be diesel or are we going to be petrol? Right, what's the fuel? What's the gas that's going to go in and you can have all of the rest of those components? But the fuel is the culture. It's so true. It's so funny. Right now just obviously for those that have been following along and following me on LinkedIn, they know that I've recently gone back in house and I'm part of a leadership team and it's a great team by the way and full of amazing leaders, storied leaders that have done amazing things, we still don't talk about culture enough. Right? We still don't talk about how we're going to design the organisation to sort of deliver those results and that comes down to how we can get those people to connect and engage and support and buy in and make the right decisions and do the right things that drive the performance and then it sort of circles back around to your main, your first point which is its performance that these borders are. are looking for, it's performance that these leadership teams are looking for, but you've got to sort of architect that in. You have to architect in the system to do it, right? If people are your fuel, how I feel, what I bring, where my discretionary effort is, above and beyond what I'm paid to do and what my day job is, that's the piece that determines success, I think, from let's call it mediocre performance or possibly failure. And when you look in the UK over the last 10, 15 years and maybe looking in the US as well, and we've seen some giants fall in various different sectors, whether it's been in entertainment or whether it's been in retail or whether it's been across the world. And some of those giants are fallen because the cultures that they created didn't provide the right environments for people to be able to come out and do their best. And ultimately, that fuel to the business is being cut off. Whatever way it is, it's been limited cut off. And in those circumstances then, how can we possibly one give our best or to give and drive the best results for business if we're not able to bring everything we can? So interesting listening to both of you talk about it actually, because obviously I'm ever slightly different angle and I'm brought into organisations and you know, I can genuinely remember leaders saying, so how do you, what are you going to do to fix our culture? What is it that do about our culture? What is it that you're going to do about our leadership? And it's so interesting, so I don't think that I get asked very often in a connective way to performance, that conversation is always being driven by me. You know, almost feel like I have to sell that into a boardroom. It is, we know that ethically that I've got a boardroom to the place that they want to do something about EI or they want to do something about culture. They understand that intellectually they need their people in the good place to be able to perform and do their best work, that is never taken then to the point that we're talking about profit. Have you ever seen Karen? Do you have any examples war stories about a leader that's maybe had that 360 and turned around and understood the total connectivity between the two? Yes, I do, I was thinking about that because obviously in my my old confidentialities everything, there is one particular leader that I worked with several years ago, an international leader based in London and this particular individual had his site set on a CEO role. And to achieve that he needed to do some work around how he both led his people but also how he brought himself in at that next level into a business. I mean, I guess we all will talk about how we had it some of this but in essence an amazing person, incredibly driven, super bright, super intellectual and very worldly and also very enthusiastic and focused on the one way which meant that there are elements of sometimes fear that that came around this individual and this individual is aware of this and and didn't want it but also knew that to take that next step from being a leader of a region to becoming a you know a full CEO that individual would need to think differently about how they showed up both within their own senior teams but also how they were then perceived at different levels going down and he did an amazing job and we worked on it through a series of processes we use data. There's a big thing around you know you can talk about perception of feeling and emotion or those things but but when you're working with very bright very competent, very accomplished individuals, data counts, the science counts as well as the instinct and the feelings. So we used a couple of sort of key processes that I knew and not judgmental that would bring some of that learning to this individual in a gentle way and then we talked about what success looked like for him, what is success looked like for that organisation, what did he really want to achieve and how was he going to make that happen with and through everyone else because there's no point being a leader if you're going to just do it all yourself because actually by the definition then you're not leading. You're a leader of one whereas we're getting to these more senior roles your your accomplishment is what you've accomplished through and with your people. So true for your people. For your people right and that sort of idea of follow a ship and being able to sort of bring the team along with you and I think maybe you've seen this even more so than I have maybe here but when people do want to take that next step up when they want to sort of evolve to whatever place. CEO, a senior leadership role, a leadership role, it's being able to manage that self awareness about yourself and know right be able to look inside and say okay I've got this set of strengths but I also don't have these strengths and being able to sort of self reflect and self evaluate that. I'm sure that's it's kind of at the heart of your practice. You know when you're thinking about coaching people it's letting them helping them see those blind spots. He drove I mean he's subsequently set up his own business and doing incredibly well. He drove a very high performing team and one thing that I was always eternally I worked with him for nearly 10 years. The one thing I was always eternally appreciative for in terms of his trust was that even though he could be quite formidable he would always say to me Karen what advice have you got for me? What am I missing? What am I not seeing? And just taking that thread in that vein and giving me the permission to build say to him well actually here's where I think X's or here's what I think is happening with Y and I can't substantiate this from an evidence perspective but my feeling on this is this this and this from that he definitely evolved and thought about his style differently. Now ultimately if we've all got strong character traits we're always going to default to type to some extent but giving someone the permission someone else permission to call us out on that is a gift right that that is a gift and it's a very special thing to be able to do it and it's it's as good as it's closely an element to self-awareness as you're ever going to get saying a bit like I will call myself a recovering perfectionist I know I'm a recovering perfectionist okay I know I am okay giving people around you the permission to say to Karen 85 is good enough 90% is good enough and giving yourself permission to say stop it that that takes takes a lot but when you do that the impact that has on people around you is incredible. I'm in the coaching session I feel like you're good. I know right we do. She's right that's that's is that you're like you know one thing that I want to jump on it just sort of struck me and I'm curious actually I'm going to ask how to do this question just because we always like to thread through on the culture piece isn't it true how when you're able to ask those questions of yourself then you start to ask them of your workforce like some of the most powerful things I've seen and I think we've seen how to unite is when the business is willing to go to the the workers the workforce the employees and say what am I missing what do I need to know tell us what's really going on at the front line tell us what you think about the stuff that we're rolling out from the top of the house is it actually working and I think if you cultivate that in yourself as a leader and a genuinely curious to get that insight then you start to seek it all over the place and when you start to seek it from your culture from your workforce that's really powerful I think and I I'm constantly trying to sort of preach that like let's just not decide this stuff in this boardroom like do we actually know what the folks are going to say if this comes to them I think how do we've seen that right in culture workers people think it's all decided in the boardroom and then there's all these posters that go up on the wall and all these sayings you're like who invented this stuff this doesn't even resonate with what's going on right it's fascinating because I think it's actually so the answer is usually much more simple than we give it credit for and that with any difficult leadership question is often how will our people react to this and how do we take this conversation out there I think people traditionally think that if we put an open conversation or an open forum there we're just inviting it all in and that makes things more difficult it doesn't it means that we can make a better decision and get something that works first time and Carrie is interesting to how you talk about it from a you're obviously working one-on-one super deep work with leaders getting them to help self-awareness being able to do that work around themselves I think you know the irony of some of those conversations that certainly I know that I've had the senior leaders is they think that that they can that work on themselves then now the more senior we get the bigger shadow that we have so by the time you know and I know from working with Elaine for many years one of the things that she is very skilled at is being able to understand the bits that she doesn't know the bits that she needs to work out alongside people and it's almost having the bravery to think about the deepest self-awareness that you can do and then just open that wider and wider and wider and wider and wider and that is ultimately what shifts culture and and I also think it's ultimately what gets leaders to understand the link to performance when they start to see all that does work I do get a better result when people are reacting to me better now I think you almost need to evidence it in a way yeah in the emotion-intelligence diagnostic it's called reality testing and reality testing is your ability to remain objective even when you're in a situation or circumstance where you're particularly wedded to a point of view or there's a particular outcome that you want. And often that piece is, I know I'm the senior leader, I'm one of the senior leadership members of the team. And I must just say that one of the things I love doing is I get to work one to one with usually the most senior individual within a team, often that's CO. And then that senior leadership team, which means I get my own sense of reality of what's happening in the business, not just through one individual. But the thing that I will always coach on over and over and over again and it's linked to impulse control, is linked to a number of different things within EI, is what am I missing? And to Lane's point, that curiosity piece around, you think you've got the answer, you think you know it, you've got this and the other. If you can ask yourself the question, what am I missing? And then go out to the room and find, ask the others, why am I in that different place to everyone else? Why is everyone not with me on this? It's not necessarily my job to then, you know, persuade, could you all drag everyone along? Maybe I need to just stop and ask the question and find out what is it that they've all got that I haven't. Well, for those that are still with us and listening to our podcast this time, you're not going to know this, but this is part two, where we did a quick change because, well, we're doing this on a different day, full confession and two, because we had technical difficulties, we were forced into that. So we just didn't want to shortchange this fantastic conversation that we were having. So we thought about trying to splice it all together and pretending nothing happened. But instead, we've erased the messy middle of it all, because that's what naturally happens on any given day in our workplaces. And we've come back to you part two. So if you're wondering why I now have a salmon colored sweater on or hat is in green, or even Karen's got a different top on, it's because both is happening on a different day. But anyway, without further ado, we're going to jump back in because we were having, I thought, a really interesting and important conversation about the world of executive coaching and how it truly impacts leaders and their development. So I sort of want to pick up where we left off. And I want to ask you, Karen, just about this comparative of you've talked and led and coached so many leaders over the course of your career. What are a couple of things that you think have really been impactful in your coaching practice that leaders over and over again, you see when they focus in these areas, it really does improve their ability and their impact and their performance. And then to contrast that, what are some of the things they avoid working on or that they don't focus on enough and you see them making the same mistake over and over again? Great question and obviously we haven't got long enough because I could go on for England probably about all of this. I think for leaders, when it comes to performance, particularly CEOs, senior board level execs, they're always looking for the results that they're expected to deliver. So it's a natural orientation to go towards what they're going to need to tell their board, what needs to tell the shareholders. So there will always be an innate focus on, if you like, performance and that will be financial performance. Where I think the coaching helps and helps to open up individuals to think is okay, how do they want that performance delivered? So the what is a given there it is, it's there, but it's the how and how do they want their team to deliver not only what's expected and required, which also obviously centers around the individual leader themselves, but also how do you make that sustainable? So if you're like getting the quick fix and the quick results, it is relatively straightforward. You can push those through in most situations. But of course, what most leaders of organizations are looking for now is sustainability. How do we create something that lasts? How do we create a culture that's always under scrutiny? That means not only did we do a great job and we performed and we delivered to the what we require for the shareholders or for whatever that metric is. But do people enjoy doing it? And if they enjoy doing it, are they giving us their discretionary extra effort? And that discretionary extra effort we don't pay for because that's the point of it. And therefore the sustainability and the will and the true desire to perform and deliver on an ongoing basis becomes just an innate part of that culture and the way people work. Yeah, yeah, it's so true. And I gosh, I could go on a tangent on this one for a while, but it's so true that if people, especially these senior folks who get to a certain level and they've, I've often said they get to a place where they've gotten really good at doing things they don't love. And then when you try to coach them to find that sweet spot again and have them really know what their strengths are and where they can make an impact, that's harder. It's harder to face it. It's harder to address it. It's so much easier to address the to do list and get things fixed quickly and maybe tweak a thing here and tweak a thing there that feels satisfying probably that feels like, okay, I did something, check the list. But boy, when you do get them to like, wait a second, what's going to unlock you and what's going to get you to perform at that next gear? It's so often doesn't it come down to this idea of do you like what you're doing? Do you love this? Are you in the right role? Doing the right things and I'm sure you've encountered that innumerable times for sure. I mean, many times, I mean, therein lies the promise of emotion intelligence know that I self, the first wing and premise of why emotion intelligence even exists is you stop and you check in with you and you understand you, what you're feeling, what you're thinking, the impact it's having on you and therefore the impact you're having upon others. And that is as a leader, our job, how are we impacting others to perform and deliver with and through those individuals? You're a leader, you're not going to do it all yourself, otherwise you're not leader. And I think that there comes a point when certainly some senior leaders can get so myopic over the performance, the mission, the metric, what's required that they can lose sight of themselves in that and therefore when they lose sight of themselves, they lose sight of the impact that they may be having on others around them. And emotion intelligence is a wonderful, very simple tool that a very deep tool that allows individuals to kind of check in in a way that's right for them. It's so individual, there's no rights or wrongs, but it just gives you the opportunity to say, oh, for me, as a coach to say, okay, let's just work with this one piece. Tell me what's happening. How are you feeling about this? The feel word is, you know, was often considered quite a dirty word if you go back in business 20, 30 years ago. And it was, yeah, you could talk about anything but not about emotions and God forbid you might be emotional. Female or male in any form of situation and you be labelled by that rather than any competency or ability that you had beyond. But I think you can get, if you can get in a safe space to get in individuals to just stop and think, how am I feeling? What is that doing to me? What is that likely then to be doing to others? I've got a whole new way forward in which I can mobilise and create and make things happen. Do you think, Karen, when people come to you, so by the time a leader gets to be working with you? How aware of emotional intelligence do you think they are? And I don't mean sort of the intellectual part of it. But do you think leaders are coming to you with an open mind about what that's going to look like? Or is this work at that level still a surprise to them? I think it's, excuse me, fair to say. It goes in two tranches. Definitely. More senior leaders come thinking they know it. And if I've heard once, I must have heard it. 200 times, sorry, excuse me. Yeah, yeah, I know this. I've done this before. And then you take them through their diagnostic and they're like, yeah, I've never done this before. And it all comes out. I think for younger generations, which I'm absolutely passionate about bringing, if we can bring this to us, aspiring people in there and not just leaders, but aspiring influencers in their 20s and their 30s and help them to see this is an additional set of tools to put alongside their what we can bring more into their how at an earlier stage. Then you've got a whole different generation of leaders with a mindset truly tuned into culture and how to help deliver and drive the successes that you want. There's certainly with the more mature generations, many of them on many occasions are little surprised. I remember with an EQ diagnostic, you're telling you about you. So it's not my assessment. It's it's the individual's assessment of themselves. I'm the interpreter. Yeah. Well, gosh, that could be a whole nother podcast, right? Just the reactions of people to assessments and how many arguments, I won't say arguments, but I will. I've had with people like, I didn't know what to do. I didn't write this about you. These are your answers that you said. So it's you writing this about you, you know, exactly. If you look at the the components around, you know, it touches on in a confidence, it touches on what that means for relationships, it touches on communication skills, decisions, and ultimately your emotional mental wellbeing. You're going places that most people don't feel that comfortable going with on a day-to-day basis. And it's super ties into this idea of employing engagement or, you know, enablement or whatever you want to talk about. Like, imagine an organization that is full of these unique beings that are all sizing up themselves and on some sort of, you know, continuum of emotional intelligence from really high to really low and everything in between and trying to get like, organisations to really tap into that. Like, it's a huge, it's a huge opportunity and it's, and it's a huge gap, right, which is all part of the work that we're, we try to do together in this realm. So yeah, it's, it's a big topic. It's hard to just talk about it in a few minutes, but really good points and, and I hope encouraging for the listeners, right, just around, you know, it's, it's not just in the middle of this. If you're in the middle of your career or early in your career, this can go on throughout your career. You're constantly evolving and learning it constantly. What did you say, no, that's self? Like that is a really stop. I don't care how senior you get or how there's always something more to learn. There's always some surprise in your own toolkit that you have a chance to sort of evolve it and think it through and ask yourself, wait a second, maybe if I just reacted in a different way, perhaps there'd be a different outcome. And that's the premise, right? The premise is everything is within your gift, and that's the beauty of it. When you really stop and think, and we apply in a very, in a very subtle way, you know, the, the understanding that the leader and I has of themselves, my understanding of them, and then we apply those two things to the problem, to the situation in hand. There are only one of a number of different opportunities and therefore positive outcomes you can drive. So anything and everything is possible and that's the bit that I love about it. It unlocks so much. Within your own gift, I like that. That is not what I call. That is cool. Within your own gift, what a nice way to put it and what a really actually visceral way to put it. Because it's true. And you know, for another podcast that if you look at how I came upon emotion intelligence, I'm what it did for me and for the way I looked at myself and I understood myself and I was able to think about things differently. It unlocked the most amazing, well, last since I was 40, so the last 20 years in my career, made a massive difference. I wish I'd known earlier. If we were going to end on one big thing, Karen, and I know we've now talked about emotional intelligence, but is there something that you just wish more leaders would stay at low as they walk into the room with you, you start your conversations, you've done your diagnostic. Do you just wish there was one thing that they all said? I think that not enough people in the boardroom talk about how they're feeling about something. I think they all talk about how they're thinking about it and a lot of that is because that's assumed and expected and it's not as we mentioned before, it's not being the thing. I think in any scenario, if you could talk about more about how I felt about this and then there was time given to why, then I think we get to some solutions that will be positive in a much more expedited way. I genuinely do. I think when you look at a dysfunctional room, it's often because the feeling is so visceral, but no one is talking about it. The feelings are there and everyone, you can read it, you can see it, if you're high on reality testing, you just know that what's going on in that room, the feeling is not positive. Very few people are prepared to go there. People forget that all the time. Just because you think no one else is saying something, everyone's having a conversation about it, just not out loud. Right. So we ask, what do you think about that decision? I think that the build for me to come into the boardroom would be or into any senior environment would be and how do we feel about it? That's a good build. I'm listening to you talk. It's coaching in the way that you coach with executive leaders is like a microcosm of what then is going on with the rest of the organisation. Elaine said it earlier, imagine the power of this. If we got an organisation, a group of humans to function together in a way that was led by how do we feel about this? Not just what's the process to be able to get there, but what are we feeling about this process? What are we feeling about the results that it could have? It, you know, imagine. Well, it goes in tandem. The what, the functional expertise, the experience in the room, those things are are given. But how we think about them, apply them, what we do with them, without the how, which is the feel, then you can't ultimately necessarily drive the optimum outcomes. And that's what every this an organisation wants that optimum outcomes. Well, thank you for that. That was totally insightful and a completely different way, I think, for us to think about. And, you know, for anyone listening who is an employee experience professional or a CHRO, I think this element of what are our leaders thinking and feeling at the highest level and how is that therefore playing down into the rest of the architecture of the business and the way that we experience work? It's such an interesting angle that you've given us. So thank you. Pleasure. Yeah, really appreciate it. Always appreciate your insights. Always appreciate the way that you think about things. You make, you know, I'm lucky that I've gotten to work with you. You make me better. I know that you make the executives and the teams that you work with better. And we're just really grateful for you having this conversation with us and readers. Thanks for putting up with us on our cruising journey here and how we did this podcast. It's just a great study in Improvise, Adapt and Overcome, which is definitely, I think, the motto of the day. So once there's and always thank you for joining us and listening to our work possible podcast, Karen Richards. Thank you so much for joining us today. Really great conversation and we appreciate you. From first hello's for Fon Fowells, Fawna Designs, employee experiences for happier people, stronger teams and better businesses. No frameworks, no playbooks, just real transformation. Are you ready to experience possible? Visit theFawna.co.uk. You've been listening to WorkPossible, a special series of the CultureCon podcast. We hope today's conversation has sparked some possibilities for you. Subscribe for fresh perspectives, ideas, bold enough to change things and a whole host of opportunities to be a paybook. That's a wrap on this episode of the official CultureCon podcast. If you got something out of it, share it with a friend, a teammate, or a fellow culture geek. And don't forget to hit subscribe so you never miss an episode. 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