Speaker 1Hi there. Welcome back or welcome to Recovering Out Loud podcast, the show where we get real about mental health and addiction. I'm so glad you're here. If you or someone you love is struggling with drugs or alcohol, please reach out for help. Send me a message on all social media platforms at recoveringoutloudpod or by email at recoveringoutloudpod at gmail.com. You are no longer alone. So that's why I like doing the back and forth, like the professionals lived experience back and forth. And then the family side of it, I always, I always love doing because my last relapse, I was really, what's the word? I don't want to say humbled. But I was really, I was humbled, but I was really, my eyes opened to how much I affected my family, right? Because they saw, it was different for when I didn't have a solution before, you know, when I was 23 and I had no solution at all. I had no concept of, I didn't even know what that word meant. I just thought everybody used drugs and drank the way I did. And I was going to go on like that for the rest of my life and somehow manage it one day, right? This great illusion that we all have. So this time around, my family knew that I had a solution and I wasn't reaching for it. I was reaching for it every day. And I was choosing to live in Airbnbs and hotels and do all these crazy things. And, um, so yeah, so I, that's my point with that is I'm very interested in also too, I get a lot of messages from family members more so than addicts, I would say.
Speaker 2Yeah. Family's a complex one. We can get into that a little bit there. I can try and be helpful to your listeners in terms of my own lived experience there. So, or how long have you been sober now?
Speaker 1Now? Almost 10 years. 10 months. Amazing. Yeah. So I had eight years and, um, decided that I was, I had a secret about something and I always talk about it. It's a long story, but essentially I wasn't telling the truth about what was going on over here, you know? And I had these ideas of, um, fixing my body dysmorphia, you know? So I started with performance enhancing drugs and steroids. And, uh, every time I say that, it's funny. People are always like, well, how does that lead to, you know, smoking meth? Well, dude, like it always starts with one thing, right? Where you're like, I'm not going to tell you about this thing then. And then this, it snowballs into like secrets and secrets and secrets. And then I'm doing Adderall. And then next thing I know I'm on the couch and someone's offering me to smoke some meth. And I'm like, why not? Fuck it. Right. Why not? And then, you know, it's very hard to get back in, in, in at least my situation, but, um, enough about me. People talk about me all the time. I want to hear about you.
Speaker 2Do they? Do they? I feel like I'm among a big, big deal here with Anthony in recovering out loud.
Speaker 3I could talk about myself all day. Thank you. I can talk about myself all day, but, um, thanks for coming.
Speaker 2I'm the opposite. I, I don't struggle talking about myself, but I feel like every day it's a journey of coming to peace and acceptance of, you know, my life and experiences. So thank you for giving me the opportunity to come and share a bit today. Yeah, I'm excited.
Speaker 1It's nice to be here. I got to say, I like, I absolutely love your passion for this topic and, you know, within meeting you in, on the phone, just talking on the phone for 10 minutes there, like I could just feel how much this means to you. And, uh, I'm excited to get into that. Like, why is it so important to you for one? And why don't you tell us, like, tell everyone what you do first.
Speaker 2Okay. Um, I do a lot. I'm a little bit of a workaholic. So, but, um, I'm excited to be here. I'm, I'm making, I'm making a transition right now away from, or with the Canadian addiction treatment centers. They're a wonderful network of service providers. So always kind of worked in mental health and substance use in some capacity. I would say most of my experience has been through inpatient treatment centers and then private world, but I've also worked in nonprofit and the public sector. So I went from, um, you know, a private treatment center that was a little bit smaller, uh, a number of years ago. And then I moved into nonprofit and I actually worked in the shelter system for three and a half years over COVID-19 or throughout COVID-19. And yeah, yeah, definitely seen some shit for sure. Um, it was a devastating time. Uh, yeah, it's a lot of times I wish I haven't seen the things that I've seen, but at the same time, I'm also grateful that I've gotten to be able to. To see the reality of how much our system has failed people and you know, how, just like you were sharing right now, Anthony, like it's the difference of a day for someone for a lot of people. And it, there's so much misunderstanding around people who are struggling with substance use, you know, also mixed with like mental health. And then you also add the housing piece, which is becoming more and more of our community. I mean, it's just, the numbers are going up and up and up. So even though it's, it's, it was traumatizing working in that area. I I'm so grateful. And some of the most amazing people I've met have been like residents of the shelter system who I just truly think are the most remarkable humans in the world. I really do. I grew up in precariously house housing situations and, um, just had a really childhood and didn't come from a lot. So I feel very at home in that environment, ironically, no pun intended. And it's just kind of where I feel really at peace, which is kind of hard to explain, but I loved working there. And then I, I came over to see, to CTC again, about three and a half years after that and stepped into some executive leadership or senior leadership there and just kind of grew within the organization. Now I'm kind of starting a new journey myself. And, um, throughout, you know, the last year and a half or so I started my PhD in psych as well, but the specialization is, is, is industrial and organizational psychology. So it's kind of like thinking about, um, teams and companies and organizations as an individual itself and working and consulting to help make that whole. Yeah. And I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's a really, really important thing. Yeah. And I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's a really important thing. Yeah. And I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's a really important thing. Yeah. And I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's a really important thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1really grateful for the career so far and that's so specifically when you talk about helping organizations run as a i like that analogy too like yeah healthy human yeah there's certain things that need to fall in place daily things that need to happen right we can you know the metaphors can go on forever um you're talking specifically addiction centers organizations or
Speaker 2just mental health or just everyone actually like any organization organization yeah and what brings me to it is after years of working with individuals and, and Anthony, when I say every type of person, I truly mean every type of person. I mean, if there's a profile people like to put towards substance use or homelessness, I can tell you right now, none of those profiles are accurate. There's no face of addiction or face of homelessness or face of mental health. It's just all of us, any of us. Um, and I just think the most prevalent thing coming through, there's probably two, one is trauma for sure, but the other one is stress. And it's our environments where people go in to work every day, more and more. And we just live in the world where I'm sure you've said it on the podcast many times, you know, like the opposite of addiction is connection. And we are living in such a disconnected world and heading into a place where I just think more and more people are going to be struggling and trying to cope and keep up with, um, you know, the unrealistic demands of the workplace now. And again, just the impact of stress that we really need support there, or we're just going to keep seeing people struggle more and more. I mean, I can relate to that a hundred percent
Speaker 1more recently, right? Like it is so much, especially living downtown Toronto. It's so funny, right? Living in a huge city with the most people, you know, a lot of people in, um, I want to say in Canada, is it most people in Canada? I don't know. There's a lot of people that live in Toronto, but such a big city, you can feel so alone. Like it's so easy. Right. And especially being in a condo, um, it's so much easier for me to just isolate, you know, even, you know, I live with my partner at home, my wife, but, uh, it's so much easier for, for us to isolate than it is just to go out and to see my family, you know, my family's in the GTA. And for me, there's some days where it's like, that's just like the longest trek, right. To get out there. Absolutely. And, uh, yeah. So that's something that I've been struggling with for sure. It's like, it's just so much easier to stay at home and not connect with anybody. And sometimes I'll get a phone call and I'm just like, I don't even, I don't want to like, it just snowballs, right? Like it's, it starts with one night in and then it's like not going to the gym. Right. When you don't go to the gym for a while, it's just so much easier to choose the life of Netflix and chill or whatever, whatever your advice is.
Speaker 2I also think there's something there you're bringing up, which is that exhaustion and just, oh my gosh, there's something else I have to do in my day. Speaks to the fact that we're constantly on our phones and constantly connected to the world in a way that our brains and our bodies literally are not meant to be kind of constantly facing all the time, 24 hours a day. There's, I was, I was speaking on an event last week and I talked about just the breakdown of the stress cycle and it like helped me remember that our nervous system, when we go through that stress, we're, we're supposed to, or we did for a very, very long time, close that stress cycle by just returning to a state of rest, relaxing the nervous system.
Speaker 3Equilibrium.
Speaker 2Equilibrium, right? And so now, because our phones are always on, anyone can message you anytime I need help or can you help me? And whatever, come in for this shift or, you know, whatever it might be, um, our poor nervous systems never rest and never get an opportunity to just regulate again. And so we're constantly in this overhaul of like cortisol spikes and constantly going and thinking and moving and doing. And then of course we just crash. Like, we're just like, I can't imagine going, you know, across. I can't have anything else to give. I have nothing else to give to this world today. I just want to like Netflix and chill. And so if you, maybe it's a bit of a stretch, but when I think about that and simply connected to the cycle of addiction, I'm, it just seems the exact same to me. You know, we're coping, we're coping, we're coping, we're coping. And there aren't enough outlets for us to, you know, get that rest, you know, unpack our mental health, connect with an individual, go and have fun, have a bit of play, enjoy in our lives. And then as soon as you know it, you're like, you just said, you're. You know, we're coping, we're coping, we're coping. And then as soon as you know it, you're like, you're. You know, we're coping, we're coping. And then as soon as you know it, you're. You know, we're coping, we're coping.
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Speaker 1You know, we're coping. And then as soon as you know it, you're. You know, we're coping. And then as soon as you know it, you're. You know, we're coping. And then as soon as you know it, you're. You know, we're coping. And then as soon as you know it, you're. You know, we're coping. And then as soon as you know it, you're. You know, we're coping. And then as soon as you know it, you're. You know, we're coping. And then as soon as you know it, you're. You know, we're coping. And then as soon as you know it, you're.
Speaker 2You know, we're coping. And then as soon as you know it, you're. You know, we're coping. And then as soon as you know it, you're. You know, we're coping. And then as soon as you know it, you're. You know, we're coping. And then as soon as you know it, you're. You know, we're coping. And then as soon as you know it, you're. You know, we're coping. a little bit more, people like me, and many others who, you know, would have my experience or education or, or better can come and, and help. Like that's the whole point is let's start to have these conversations and figure out how we can help people because yeah, it's just scary to me that, um, you know, in the ripple effect, Anthony is huge. And what I love to do, I love a hard conversation. Like I love problem solving and finding a way for everyone to have a win, win, win. So I believe, you know, there's a, there's a way to do this where we help people. Number one, we create healthier workplaces. Number two, and companies are not spending unnecessary money or having accidents or, you know, toxicity or just expenses that are incurred as a result, of not having these conversations. I really believe by having them, everybody wins at the end of the day. Like it's just the right thing to do. Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah. And I, I mean, I, I'm just thinking about how that would play out. Right. And I agree with you a hundred percent. It's we're not, maybe we'll never have a good answer for it. Right. But to your point, it's like, I just think about how my family helped me. Right. And cause they had no idea what they were doing too. Um, and, uh, I mean, at least if we, um, took someone aside, it's, it's really hard though. Right. To do that in a professional
Speaker 2setting. Um, it's, it's hard if we make it hard not to cut you off, but it really is hard if we keep saying it's hard. I mean, you and I just met, this isn't hard. We're just people. We're just being people together. We're just chatting, you know, I'm coming to the conversation with no judgment and support and, you know, just the, the priority of like showing up for you. And I think that's a hard for, for me to do. I don't think it's hard for you to do for people who get the honor of coming and chatting with you. Like it, it, it can be hard. It can be complicated, but I, I do wonder if it needs to be hard and complicated.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. I mean, we, I think there's just a stigma around the workplace that we can't talk about this stuff. Right. I can't approach said individual. What if I'm wrong? There's all these things that are going, through my head. Right. And chances are, you're not wrong. If you're noticing some behaviors, right. The chances are they are struggling with something. So I mean, it could be as simple as like, Hey, is there anything I can do to help you? Right. Is there anything that I could do? It looks like you're going through a tough time, right? Maybe I'm wrong, but yeah,
Speaker 2it's not that complicated. It's not that complicated and complicating it. And, and, and that's part of the stigma. Like that's part of the fear and the, the avoidance of, I just like, this is too big, too messy, too unfamiliar and confusing for me to step into the space. And what we're doing there is, you know, again, well-intended, like I know we're not, you know, wanting to hurt someone as a result of that, but by continuing that narrative and that language, we're, we're continuing to stigmatize it. Again, at the end of the day, I teach trauma-informed practice at Humber college. And, and I always say to my students, cause they're so dedicated and they're so committed. They're like, Oh my gosh, they like try the professor Perry. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. We're just, Alex is good. Um, but you know, just what if I asked the wrong question or what if I, you know, I said, as long as you are doing two things, one, we have two ears, one mouth, listen more than you talk. I'm sure you know that one, same thing here, just listening can go so far. And then number two, just simply ask like, what can I do to help? What do you need? Right now? How nice is it when someone asks you, Anthony, what do you need right now? Oh my God. It's the best question. What do you need right now? Yeah. So good.
Speaker 1Yeah. It's overwhelming too. Sometimes it's like, I'm like, I don't even know. I don't know. You tell me what I need, but, uh, it's, it's the ability when that person asks that question, if they're able to not jump in when you don't know the answer. Cause I do that too. Right. Yeah. Yeah. If you ask someone for help there, you have to pause and you have to be okay with silence because it'll come out to your point. Eventually it'll come out. Right. But when it's, you know, I have to, well, do you want me to do this? Do you want to do that? It's like, dude, just.
Speaker 2I, so I'm like, so one of those people, a hundred percent. Silence is tough. Silence is tough. Yeah. Silence is tough. I mean, there could be also a world where, you know, organizations and, and, you know, different companies actually include some people like us on their team.
Speaker 1I've thought about that. Yeah. It's weird that you bring that up. Yeah. There's a role for that for sure.
Speaker 2Totally. And I don't think it's like a counselor. I don't think it's something like that because people just already are like, okay, that's not going to be helpful. This is no one uses EAPs. It has to be something that's really authentic and the ability to like really connect with people and understand, and almost like maybe even like a consultant, like just a place for people to be, you know, able. Able to openly talk because I noticed too, on the flip side of things, being part of senior leadership, I've never worked in an organization and be like, we're just choosing to be horrible. Like no one's choosing to do things that are not great for their employees. I've always worked somewhere where their intention is they want to do best by their employees, by their company. And they're managing again, these like really hard paradoxes that don't work easily together. Having said that, you know, again, those roles need to ask for help, lean into curiosity and work with experts who can help them identify some things. And they might not be big, they might be small or they might be big, but yeah, I do think there's a world where companies get more involved in this type of conversation with people who have lived experience.
Speaker 1Yeah. A mental health consultant, right? For the company. Isn't that good? Right. You work at the company and instead of HR, right? Like you're the, you're a part of HR maybe, but you're the mental health consultant. No one has to know that you when saw the guy or girl or person, right? No one has to know. And it could just be as simple as resources. Yeah. You know, I talked to so many people today that have no idea what RAM clinics are. They have no clue. Right. And it's such a helpful resource, right? Rapid addiction access, rapid access addiction, medicine. I've been there myself. I've gone through it. Um, and it's a great, it's a great program. Like I was able to go show up. They gave me resources all covered under OHIP, right? And that's everyone's, that's the biggest, uh, maybe you can talk a little bit to this too. I don't have money. How do I get sober? I need money to get sober. I hate hearing that.
Speaker 2I know it's, uh, it's brutal. So just the mental health thing. I love what you said about a mental health consultant for the, like the organized organization someone can lean on. I, I think even bigger of the mental health of an organization, like the whole system of an organization that was like a, a person, an entity, how is the mental health of that entity? That's what I think could be really cool. Anyways. Um, you don't have money to go to treatment. Yeah. Uh, this is a, this is a hard topic to talk about because it is a bit controversial these days with things like involuntary treatment, um, what seems like a push for privatized healthcare, um, and many, many organizations and nonprofits who actually do the work that needs to be happening and have for a really, really long time, just like not getting funded properly. Um, okay. So I think maybe two part answer. One is if someone does, if, if someone out there is struggling and looking at you, yeah, we're looking at the camera. If, if this speaks to you, if you're struggling and it feels like you can't afford treatment, I would still call a treatment center. So for the Canadian addiction treatment centers, one of my favorite things about them is they have a referent relations manager role. And that role is really intended to help navigate the different options people have because they're usually the ones that work with different, um, different people. Um, and so I think that's, I think that's, I think that's like you said, unions or referents is what we call them. And that can be various different organizations. Yeah. It can be a number of different things. So I would still call, always call. I know it feels really defeating and probably hopeless in some ways, but always call. Um, if you're a person for yourself and, or you're working with someone as like a social worker or, or a case manager or something like that, call. And then, you know, ask questions like, you know, is the person working? Are they a veteran? I mean, there's, there's many people in the shelter system that are veterans, which is not okay. Um, but that can open potentially a direct referral pathway for someone to get access into treatment. Um, you know, there's, there's other part ways that people can ask like partnerships. I work really closely with an organization. Um, you know, there's, there's other ways that people can ask like partnerships. I work really closely with an organization called victim services. They have a treatment pathway for survivors of human trafficking. So, So again, in this system, like let's say if someone goes to a RAM clinic, to your point, and a caseworker at a RAM clinic notices like, okay, I'm really feeling like this individual is fleeing, you know, a really dangerous situation. If they know about this pathway, they can get the person in at no expense, like it's a funded pathway for immediate access into treatment. So ask questions, even though it may not always result in a funded option into treatment. Number two, if anyone out there is working with a team or is like myself, a member of a company like CATC, make sure your resources are widely available because there's so many silos in the system that we can increase people's chances and access to treatment by working together. And then all of a sudden you get to have these wonderful conversations like, you know, there's a fund, there's already established funding here, but why don't we all come together to get more funding and get people more access to treatment? So that's another maybe perspective, but at the end of the day, this is, you've hit it right on the head, this is the biggest challenge right now for recovery and treatment. And it feels like it might be again, controversial. To say, but it feels like recovery is privilege in a lot of ways, which doesn't seem what doesn't seem isn't equitable to people.
Speaker 1I mean, there, there is a part of that that's true though, right? Like I'm, I'm doing the schooling right now for becoming a social worker and it's recognizing your privilege in a lot of scenarios, right? If I didn't have support, I've been to three rehabs and if I didn't have, I remember when I was in the hospital, I was in the hospital for three years and I was in the hospital for three years and I was in the hospital for three years and I was in the hospital for three years and I remember when I was 23, my mom calling, um, public funded organization in Toronto. And at that time, I think it was three to four month wait list. But the other caveat too was I had to be willing and call it. And so she had this 23 year old kid didn't know what to do with him. I didn't want to stop drinking or using, right. So in that scenario, the only option really was to get into a private treatment. And I'm, I'm grateful that I had that experience. I don't know what would have happened if I, if it went the other way. Right. So there is a part of that. And I think that's, I think that's part of that where I do have to recognize that there is a privilege, but at the same time, I've met so many people in recovery that have come from absolutely nothing and gotten sober, even without rehab, right. They've gotten sober with 12 step meetings or smart recovery or whatever, whatever the modality is in that scenario. Not everyone needs to go to rehab too, right. I needed to.
Speaker 2Yeah. I mean, listen, it's, it's, uh, something that I think I, I really believe in as, you know, the, the most kind of terrible way of saying this, but like bang for your buck, like you're going to get the most support in that time, you know, then, um, you know, obviously waiting or doing individual sessions, but either way, uh, the majority of people probably cannot afford treatment and that's a problem. So if we go back to just the, you know, the system thinking of it there's, there's, there's a lot of ways our system needs to just kind of face the facts that the majority of people don't have access to the supports they need. And to your point, I also really struggle with the fact that our system is like a fail first mentality. People have to suffer like one term. I, I don't, this, I would love to hear your thoughts on this, but hitting rock bottom. Do I think that that's necessary? For some people, for sure. Do I think that that's what we need to get to before people get access to support? Absolutely not. We are never going to get out of this hole, the opiate crisis, if our mentality is that people have to hit rock bottom, that is people dying. That's not a rock bottom we should be waiting for before action is taken. I get that that's not always what people mean by saying those words for sure. But there is something that is backwards within our system. You know, and, and if you think about substance use as a health issue, like a chronic health issue, like we do for cancer or something else, how many preventative measures and resources are there out there to help us prevent that chronic health issue from happening?
Speaker 1Yeah, it's the same thing. I've changed my mind on it. I think I was very rigid with, with that before. Like I really did believe that you had to. And again, yeah. I mean, you mentioned it though. It's, it is subjective, right? My rock bottom is not, my trauma is somebody's Tuesday afternoon. I always say that, right? Like my, my Tuesday afternoon is someone else's trauma. Right. And it's really subjective. I've, you know, I, I have in comparison, you know, I've been hearing recovery stories for 10 years now. And in comparison, my bottom is, is very high comparatively. Right. I've heard a lot of really rough things going on in people's lives. And, um, I do think that somebody does have to come to a place though, where, you know, there's a piece of recovery literature that mentions, uh, incomprehensible, demoral, pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization. Like this, just this point of like, oh my God, like I'll do whatever it takes. Right. Like I'll do whatever it takes. Right. Like I'll do whatever it takes. Right. But I do also see how that can be dangerous. Right. Because it's very reactive and not proactive. So I'm just thinking like, what is, what is a more proactive approach? That's my thought with it. And I don't know if I, I don't know if I have the answer. I don't know if you have the answer
Speaker 2to that, but how can we be more proactive? Yeah. Well, what comes to mind for me is, and just going off your point about the, I love your trauma is someone else's Tuesday. I love that. I might steal it. I'd steal it. Credit to you, of course. I'd probably stole it. I'd probably stole it. But I, um, I think that's exactly it is like how, how scary it is that if, you know, I'm walking around looking like I'm doing just fine when really Alex is at her rock bottom and no one is seeing that because I don't feel like I can say it. Like that's scary to me, Anthony. That's, that's like, to me, that makes exact sense as to why people feel so alone, why they feel so ashamed, why there's so much stigma. Um, so yeah, I think keep like, we need to keep having those conversations for sure. And then the system reactivity versus proactive. Um, yeah, I mean, it's a good question. What comes to mind is really individualizing. I, I always, I, I've not always shouldn't say always and never, but I often, um, hear myself say that we need to invest in people individually. Really, if we could live in a world where, you know, Anthony was looked at as Anthony and this like all that Anthony is and where he is and what he needs and design his own system around him or like resources or treatment plan for him. And then Alex is invested. I'm held, I'm kind of like looked at as this, you know, an whole person that needs investment into that person. I mean, could a design, I don't know. I'm just like thinking out loud right now, but right now the public sectors, we all pay into it. Everyone gets access to basically the same things. But I mean, I don't know, is, is there a world where, you know, here's the funds that you have on an individual basis and use them as needed and you might need them for one thing and I might need them for something else, but we have access to them. And then, you know, um, that does start steering us possibly into like maybe what feels like privatized healthcare, which I'm, I'm not necessarily a supporter of, but something needs to change at the end of the day, something needs to change because it's not working and it's, it's more than not working. It's hurting people.
Speaker 1Yeah. I think, you know, as you're talking there, I think I always think about like how, what can I do right today? Um, what are the small, cause change does happen over small actions, right? In my experience. And I think when it comes to sharing my story and getting on social media and, uh, doing this podcast, maybe it opens up somebody earlier in their life saying, Hey, I think something's wrong here. I'm not using like John is down the street. Like everyone's going home at the end of the night and I'm in the corner doing more drugs. I don't like this. Yeah. Right. And it just, the ability. So when, when I think proactive, like very simply, it's like putting up your hand a little bit earlier, right. Totally. Rather than I'm burning in a fire here, mom or dad or loved one, I think this might be a problem and then we can intervene and start doing something about it.
Speaker 2Yeah. Like if you, if you, we all know ourselves the best. I mean, we, we, the world really likes to pull us away from our gut gut feeling as much as it can, but the, you know, trust your gut in every sense. And if you feel like you're going down a path where you're starting to notice, like, I remember I've never struggled, with substances myself, but, um, I remember when I was working in the shelter system, I would respond to so many overdoses, overdoses and deaths and just things that, you know, we don't need to talk about, but I would get home so late and the only way I could fall asleep was drinking a glass of wine and I would get up in the morning and, and that went so quickly from a glass of wine once or twice in a week to like almost a bottle in a night. Like it was, it was, and then I had to stop myself and just say, this is not, this is not good. This is over what my body is not doing okay right now. And, and on many levels, like not even just the, if we look at as the, the drinking or substance or addiction as the, the symptom of what's going on, I was stressed. I was, you know, working probably 90 hours a week. You know, I was being exposed to all of these different things, which many, many people are still currently struggling with and experiencing as frontline staff. Um, and there was just no support. And that was the only way I felt I could, you know, get some sleep and not think about the images I just saw or, you know, yeah, just try and get a bit of rest. So, I mean, trust that instinct and that gut, because if you know, things are going to be okay, you're going to be okay. And if you don't, you're going to be okay. And if you don't, a couple months away, like you shared a treatment center in Toronto said there was going to be a three or four month wait, let's start getting people ready for that three or four months, you know? And it doesn't mean that you're not, you don't need help just because you can make it that three to four months, you know? Like if anything, that's just, that's going to be, it's all going to be more effective for you because you're taking it into your own hands and you're asking for help when you start to feel like you're not doing it right. Like the struggle starts, you know? So I agree with you. I think getting that hand up sooner and earlier is great. And, um, you know, family members, if that's something to normalize it in your family, um, to have these hard conversations, cause it's just a reality of the world. You know, it, the world has changed, Anthony. I don't know how old you are. I'm younger, obviously, but, um, we're around the same age when we were younger. A lot of this stuff, a lot of the stress that didn't exist. We were having different conversations around the dinner table. We were doing different things as a kid. You know, we've got to really try to keep having those connected conversations so that at that first sign of help, we can be like, ah, okay, we've got to like step in now as opposed to it just like bubbling it under the surface and then
Speaker 1it fucking explodes. Oh, well sweep it under the rug. Yeah. That was a master of that. Um, we, um, I'm just thinking about like, yeah, like, like vaping is one of those things now where it's like, that's coming into, that wasn't a problem when I was a kid, right? I was born in 92. So I know you're, you're dying to know. So there you go.
Speaker 2Not younger than you.
Speaker 1But yeah, it's like my, uh, you know, I grew up in a, in a culture where, um, and this is no fault of my parents at all. Right. I had a very good life growing up, a very good, I had everything I needed and wanted. It was easier for me to lie than it was to tell the truth because I was so scared of consequences. And I believe that's not what made me a drug addict. There's no doubt about that. It was part of the whole thing. And then this whole, like my whole life, if you were to draw a corroding thread through anytime I picked up drugs and alcohol and went down the wrong path, it was always not being honest. Like that is like the number one thing. It was secrets. And I'm not telling you I'm going to lie about it because I'm scared of the habitual thing. Right. Where you're like, you know, what did you do yesterday? And I'm like, I went out to, I'll just lie about that because I'm embarrassed for, or it doesn't even make sense. There's no reason sometimes. And I'll just lie. And you know what I mean? So, uh, that's something that I struggle with. Um, yeah, we don't, uh, trying to think of, I wish we had more time, but we don't. Um, but you'll have to come back or we will have to reconvene in another way. What, let me ask you this. What, what do you hope people get out of your work and your story
Speaker 2or message? Um, I hope that people get a bit of validation and feeling heard and seen. I got you guys. I have a commitment to carrying forward every person I've come across professionally, someone in a shelter system. It doesn't matter. Everyone's equal and, um, your stories matter. And so I hope that feels, you know, validating today. And then from, you know, the work I am doing and going forward want to do is, I mean, it's the same thing as when I started as an addictions counselor. I just want to help people. It's in a different capacity now for sure, but I think it's potentially a capacity that, you know, could really be system changing and might really start to make the world a kinder and better place for people. So not to say I'm going to do all of that myself, but just one conversation at a time, hopefully a cog in the wheel. Right. I mean,
Speaker 1again, it's small things, you know, uh, am I being a kind person today? Am I listening instead of waiting to talk? Right. That's a, I love the two. Two years when I, or sorry, two, one, one month.
Speaker 2Are you a minion? Are those minions?
Speaker 1Maybe if you go into Lake Ontario too much.
Speaker 2Yeah, seriously. Okay. Well, we'll do a part time.
Speaker 1Yeah. We will have to do a part two. Um,
Speaker 2Where can people listen to your podcast? Is that what you're supposed to say? No. Oh, okay. They know.
Speaker 1Are you on social media? Where do we find you?
Speaker 2I'm just a person. Let's make it about you. On social media. I don't really have like a big following or anything, but stay tuned. Maybe by part two, part two, I'll, I'll have a, a handle. Is that what they're called?
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2Whatever. Elder millennial over here.
Speaker 1Is your account on private or public?
Speaker 2Private.
Speaker 1Okay. Yeah. That says everything right there. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely private. I have a private account too, but you know, everything's out there.
Speaker 4Private person. Yeah. Private person.
Speaker 1Listen, I appreciate the work that you're doing. Seriously. Nothing gets done unless we change high level systems.
Speaker 2You got it right there.
Speaker 1We could just be, keep complaining until we're blue in the face and nothing changes if we don't
Speaker 2do something on top. Start to have a, I'm really excited about this role I'm stepping in to next week as someone who brings expertise on substance use. We need more of that in the workplace. And just if anyone out there needs help, ask for help. We got you. You're loved, you're worthy and I'm proud of you for being courageous. Thanks so much, Alex. You're welcome. Thank you.
Speaker 5Thanks for listening. Please help us grow the channel and like share and subscribe for more content. The discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for informational and motivational purposes only. This content is not a substitute for professional medical advice, addiction treatment, or therapy. If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction, please consult a licensed physician, addiction specialist, or mental health professional. You are no longer alone. We'll see you next week.
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