Words Matter: What To Say When Someone Is Grieving - Shelby Forsythia

[Music] Hey, Elser's it's Jana. Welcome back to Grief Out Loud. It might be hard to believe, but almost 25 years into this work, I still get stymied by what to say to someone who is grieving. I have a pretty good sense of what not to say, but what to say really remains a mystery. I bumble my way through these conversations, reminding myself that the details of what I say matter less than the fact that I'm reaching out and willing to talk about Grief at all. So that's why I was so excited to read the latest book from Shelby Forcithia, a long time friend in the Grief world. She's back on the show today to help us all understand how to use our words to provide better support. Shelby has a lot of personal experience with Grief. Her mom died when Shelby was a young adult. Her best friend Tammy died a few years ago, and her cat Gigi even more recently. Through her work as a Grief coach and podcaster, she's talked with so many people who are grieving. And from that work, she landed on three main stories that people who are grieving tend to tell themselves. The first is, "I'm crazy." Also known as, "Some things wrong with me. I'm doing this wrong." The second, "I'm all alone in this." And the third, "It's gonna feel like this forever." These three stories helped Shelby land on three phrases that can be antidotes to them. Of course, "I'm here and right now." These phrases offer a structure we can all fall back on in those moments where we don't know what to say or how to say it when the people we care about are in pain. Shelby's a phenomenal storyteller, so I have no doubt you're gonna learn a lot from what she shares. Her new book, of course, "I'm here right now," is out on March 31 of this year. So be sure to grab your copy soon. Okay, here's our conversation. Shelby, welcome back to "Greepout Loud." I am so glad to be here. The trifecta. I know, and I've been on your show. I feel like we just keep trading back and forth. But it's because you keep doing exciting things, like writing new books. I haven't done anything like that to come on your show, but I am very excited to talk to you today about your new book. Of course, "I'm here right now." And this is your third time on "Greepout Loud." So for listeners who aren't familiar with you or haven't listened to any of your conversations on this show, can you just catch people up with like, "Why are you here talking about grief?" Yes, why do you belong here? What are you doing here? The shorthand is that I'm a grief coach of 10 years now, a podcaster, a fellow podcaster, and now a three-time author. If you know anything about me, you can know those three things. The longer version is that my lost story began when I was in my late teens early 20s with what I affectionately referred to as the four years of hell, where I had loss event after loss event after loss event after loss event across the course of four years. It happened to be the four years I was in college, but had nothing to do with my college experience. And they were both death and non-death related losses. My dad lost his job, which put our family into a place of financial instability for like the first time ever. I came out of the closet as a queer person in a Southern religious family, which was like kind of accepted, but also kind of not. So there was a lot of identity grief and family grief and relational grief happening with that. Less than a year later, my dad got diagnosed with two brain aneurysms, one on either side of his head that required massive invasive procedures. And there were moments where as a daughter, I was grappling with the very real possibility that my father might die. And when doctors go digging around in your brain, you become a different person as you heal. And so I watched him kind of become more and less like himself as he was healing and recovering. And after his final brain surgery and the scans were like, you're clear, you're good. You can begin healing. My mom got diagnosed with breast cancer and the cycle, the wheel of hospital visits and meal trains and people carpooling to Duke University to go to the chemo and radiation. It began all over again. And that culminated in unexpectedly my mom's cancer going into remission and then returning in December of 2013. And we got the news that doctors could buy her time, but they could no longer cure her around December 19th. And hospice said, you have about six weeks to six months to say goodbye to her. And then she died in seven days. And I often tell the story and I may have told this before on grief out loud, but it felt like the foundation of my life fell out from under me. But then the rug and the floor and the center of the earth, like everything I had built my life on top of or thought I was or knew myself to be just crumbled underneath my feet. And there was a very good period of a few years there where all I knew to do because all society was telling me to do was to stay busy, move forward, keep going. And kind of productivity or hustle my way through loss, my after loss. And about two and a half years after her death, I learned that didn't work when someone stole my wallet unexpectedly and downed Chicago. And I started weeping for this lost wallet, realizing that what I was really crying about was my mother's death. And it was the first time that I gave myself any sort of permission to grieve. And that moment in like 2015 sort of jump started my teaching myself about grief and loss. If I just now gave myself permission to grieve like two, three years after her death, what else is there to know. And so I became what I affectionately refer to now as a student of grief, where I'm always learning from grief as a teacher in my life and reading books and listening to podcasts like this one and receiving education from grief professionals. And I started talking about grief just in a public forum in 2016. I did not identify myself as a grief coach, but that turned into a podcast, which then turned into my first book and then a second and then more podcasts and more books. And now has grown into what I call my little grief business. I'm a one-woman show and I support grievers one-on-one, but also in a group setting in an online course in community called Life After Loss Academy. And then I also write books about getting through grief. So my first two books are about and then this third one now is what to say to support someone who's grieving. So it's for friends, family, co-workers of grievers, even professionals who are working with grievers. But it's also for grievers themselves who struggle sometimes to offer themselves compassion when they are deep in grief. Well, Shelby, now I want to go back in time. I was going to go forward in time to talk about your new book. Of course I'm here right now and we are going to talk about that. But you said to me about that moment where you were like, I need to start giving myself permission to grieve two years after your mom died after these other build up of losses. Do you recall what was one thing you did to start to give yourself that permission to grieve? Oh, I can tell you very clearly. I actually wrote this story in my first book, which is called Permission to Grieve because it was inspired by this moment. I almost felt like I had no choice. It was like the someone stole my wallet. It was not a violent altercation. I had my bag hanging over a chair. Someone put their hand in, took the wallet and walked out of the store. And when I realized it was missing, I had just applied for a job. So like everything crucial to my life was in there. Social Security card, driver's license, credit cards, everything. I had a lot of money stolen from me and then the wallet. And in that moment of having something so precious and crucial to my life taken from me, it like put my heart in this place of my mother's death of having something so precious and crucial taken from me. And I took the bus home, like trying to contain my emotions and as soon as the door shut behind me to my apartment, I just broke down on the floor and started wailing. Wailing, playing scream-o-music, pounding my fists on the floor. Like I'm so surprised to this day that none of my neighbors called the police because I lived in like a six story apartment in Chicago. But like giving myself permission to Grieve looked like allowing all of these huge emotions that I thought would kill me or that I thought would make me seem crazy in the eyes of other people. That was giving myself permission to Grieve and I write in my first book that after that like adult temper tantrum, it lasted like 15 minutes. It was not a long time. I felt like a glass that had gone through the dishwasher. Like I felt really clear. And I was like, this is the first time I have not felt weighed down by the heaviness of Grieve. And I was like, what is that? Like it was absolutely mind altering to me at the time. And I was like, I want more of what this feels like. And it was literally like a lightning bolt omit that helped me understand in the blink of an eye. Like this is what it is to give yourself permission to Grieve and then invited me to keep pursuing it. And of course, screaming and crying and whaling and listening to screaming music is not the only way to process or express grief. And that feeling of all of you and all of how you are feeling is allowed. Including Grieve. That that's what I'm kind of perpetually on a quest to help myself release and feel and then to help other people release and feel too. And it's so important with that piece you said about it lasted about 15 minutes. And after it was over, I wanted more of that because I think so many folks feel the pull the magnetic pull to what we can do. oftentimes call like the abyss. Like if I let myself really feel these feelings, I'm going to fall apart forever and I'm never going to come back out of it and it's going to be terrible and awful. And there's parts that are terrible and awful, but I just appreciate you putting like there was actually a start in the middle and the end. It did actually end and then I found myself wanting to do it again such a different way of looking at that that that pull of the abyss. Yes, and I appreciate that you said that I literally just published a podcast a couple of weeks ago about I need to cry, but I can't. And often one of the feelings or thoughts that grieving people tell themselves, including me, is if I start, I will stop. If I start crying, it will never end, the tears will never end. And something I learned when I was first being trained in like a higher level of grief certification in 2016 is most crying spells like last anywhere from like three to maybe max 30 minutes at like a high output level. So like screaming or singing at a very high level is very similar. And especially if you don't do it all the time, like if you're not an opera singer or something like that, if you don't have a lung capacity for that, my best friend Tammy who died in 2022, she cried a lot and was very proud of it as a cancer and astrology. She's like, I'm a cryer and I love it. She said, you'll either run out or you'll pass out. You'll either run out of tears or you'll faint and ensure body like turn it off and turn it back on again. And I didn't know it at the time. Like when I entered this wailing crying, shrieking experience, I did not know that it was going to end. That that was not a trust or a certainty that I had going into it. But it was something now that having survived it once. I know that I can do that again and again. I really, really love that you said that and that's kind of why I put that timeframe around it so that people who are afraid of the abyss or falling in and never being able to come up for air again can potentially try that kind of grief expression if that's something that's speaking to them or calling to them or try another way if there's something else that they want to do or feel called to do to express their grief but are afraid of it going on in perpetuity. I know you and I have talked to many times but I and I've heard your story of the wallet being stolen and that being sort of the doorway into this grief rising up and coming out in a very different way. I don't think I have really heard it in this way before but you mentioned like when your mom died it felt like everything that you'd built your life upon fell apart and fell in and then it took someone taking all these documentation of you, you know, like these symbols of who you are seemed to crack that open to and I hadn't that hadn't crossed my mind before. I've never thought of those parallels either but that's perfect. I just always I think saw my wallet as like a source of financial certainty and financial stability and my mom as a person in my life was a source of certainty and stability and then again like something very precious, something very crucial but I'd never put together like oh my god that was my identity literally being stolen on some level and with my mom's death something I grieved was definitely my identity and who I knew myself to be in the world so I love no one's ever reflected those parallels back to me before so that was very very cool. This is why I come on talk to you. Well thank you for allowing me to travel backwards. Let's come into the present and I just curious you've written books before but how did you come to this newest one about you know how do we actually talk to people who are grieving in a way that's going to feel maybe less bad and other ways that people talk to people who are grieving. Yeah I would love to say like I saw a problem in the world and I set up to fix it but this is another situation kind of like the wallet where it arrived to me in like a very small interaction and that ended up being life changing. Sometimes during COVID between 2019 and like 2021 I was working with a client over Zoom whose baby had died and this loss, his loss was like the worst cherry on top of seven or eight years of backed back miscarriages and so this woman that I was speaking with she was like not only have I kept losing and kept losing and kept losing and kept losing and kept losing it's like we had hope and then the hospital delivered the news that there were medical malformations this baby had that ensured that he would not survive outside of her body they were like even if you go through with delivering him he will not be here when he arrives in his body and she was absolutely devastated and in this call we were not talking about her grief specifically she was like just before I got on the call with you one of my acquaintances who hasn't really been the nicest to me and my circle of friends just announced that she's pregnant on Instagram and she was just spiraling into the stratosphere of why does this woman deserve a healthy pregnancy when I have never had one how dare pregnancy be so light and easy breezy for her when it was been so difficult for me and first she felt judgmental towards this other woman and then she felt judgmental towards herself and she was telling all these stories if I should be happy for her I should be able to congratulate her like the right thing to do is to say I'm so happy for you and support her I shouldn't still be so angry where these stories she's telling herself and I just I just felt her like building this case one against this woman and one against herself and she was in a court of her own making like banging the gavel of like guilty guilty guilty on all charges and I I let her keep talking and then there was a silence in the conversation and I sort of said of course you would be upset that someone you don't really like is pregnant right now and she paused and I thought call the disconnected for a moment she goes I never thought of that before I did not think that it would be okay to feel torn up about this and she's like so I'm not being ridiculous I'm like no this sounds very normal to me and that moment in time it was like the world moved in slow motion I was like all I did was use words to validate her emotions and we wrap it in the context of this moment and it absolutely changed the story in her head which is I'm crazy no one gets how I feel and something is wrong with me and I was like if a single two word phrase of course can do that what other phrases can we use to support and comfort grieving people who are telling themselves these stories of crisis and despair that many of us don't even know or see and then how can I share them with the world so the seed of the book was planted in that moment and then for the past I don't know four or five years after that I've just been listening to grievers and reflecting back on my own experience and I came up with or I've discovered a pattern that there's three big stories every grieving person tells themselves at some point they are I'm crazy something must be wrong with me I'm alone or no one gets how I feel or even in a crowded room I'm all by myself and then the last one is it's going to be like this forever especially in the case of death related losses or divorces where it's like the final something permanent has happened and so therefore my pain must be permanent too and I've also learned and I write about this in the book that these three phrases of course I'm here and right now sort of change and shift or interrupt these stories that grieving people tell themselves so that they are not so trapped by the myths of what society has taught us that grief is supposed to be so they kind of sister along with each of the stories of course is the validator of I'm crazy of course you're so sad your dad is still dead you're no longer crazy or even though I can't understand what you're going through I'm here I haven't forgotten that you're grieving as an antidote to I'm so alone in this world suddenly you are carrying their grief on your shoulders too they're not carrying it along and right now it makes sense that hope feels far away it doesn't say it won't be like this forever which contradicts their reality but it says this moment is exactly that a moment in time and that can be a very painful or very hopeless or very despairing moment and in its own way right now says this is not all there is there is more beyond this something I love about these phrases is that they're non-religious they're non-meaning making it's not God never gives you more than you can handle or God needed another angel or everything happens for a reason and they're also not prescriptive time heals all you just need to stay busy you just need to date again you just need to try for another kid they're not telling gravers to do or be anything else than they already are they're just tiny little permission granting statements that you can literally use for anything from my kid didn't get a part in the school play and she's grieving not being included in the theater production this year all the way to my co-worker sister just died in a car accident and I don't know what to say there's such powerful little phrases and I've seen them work over and over and over again across now 10 years of working with craving people are there ways shall be that you told yourself those three stories there's something wrong with me I'm all alone in this it's going to be this way forever yeah I'm crazy was my big one because I spent especially before the day of the stolen wallet, a day that shall live it in for me. The story I told myself, especially because of how some of my family members responded to my grief, was that my emotions were too big for everyone else to handle. I am too much, which is another way of saying, I'm crazy, or there's something wrong with me, or I am a problem, which is kind of the core story of, I'm crazy. And by the way, I use I'm crazy because that's the language that gravers often use as I am crazy. I feel crazy. I understand in the mental health space, it's not a favorite word to use. And I write about that in the disclaimer of my book. I'm like, I know that this is not the best phrase to call people ever because it's stigmatizing, but right now it is the word that grieving people used to describe themselves. But yes, I was convinced that if the world knew how much I was really suffering, or even if my friends and family knew how much I was really suffering, that they would be so, so judgmental of me. And then therefore I was judgmental of me. I agree that something is wrong with me. And so that's the story I was very much trapped in until the day of the stolen wallet. And I was like, oh my gosh, a back had to learn it myself. No one came into my life and of course to me, which I would have loved. Instead, I wailed for 15 minutes and realized I didn't die. But not all grieving people necessarily come to that conclusion themselves. And or it is just as helpful to keep hearing their emotions validated and their experience validated by the people around them as they work to validate themselves. And I'm getting a little nitty gritty into like the emotional, the EQ emotional intelligence language. But like how powerful would it have been if I don't know, a coworker had come up to me a year or two after my mom's death when I kept her old work plaque as a receptionist at my desk as a receptionist. As my first job in Chicago was as a receptionist. And I kept her name there. And people would always ask me, why is it say Sandy? Your name shall be. And I would say, oh, it's my mom's. And then be, oh, that's so sweet. Oh, I'm so sorry. She died then they'd walk away. But how impactful would it have been if someone had said, of course, you would want to keep your mom's things close to you? She died such a short time ago. That would have been so freaking validating. Or of course, your upset that your wallet got stolen. You've had a lot taken from you in the last few years. Like, it just changes the nature of conversation from, sorry for your loss. Can't imagine what you're going through my condolences, which are like mine in their own right. But people, supporters, friends, family, co-workers, even professionals, they want to know what to say beyond those things. And I think those are the scripts that society hands of like, here's what to say, you know, right after the funeral. But people were like, I already sent a condolence card. How else do I continue to have words to show up in conversations with my friends? Because God knows our relationship, both to grief and to other people, does not end when the funeral is over. Shelby, you mentioned that your best friend Tammy died back in 2022. And I'm wondering of the phrases that people say that are like, they're fine or maybe they're not so fine, or they just don't land that well. Were the things people said to you after your mom died similar or different to what they said after Tammy died? It's funny. I think no one's ever asked me this question before either, which is another reason I'm talking to you. After my mom died, the thing I got the most was, you can't be sad forever. And my response to that internally was always like, well, just watch me. I'm about to be like, I don't know what to tell you. I'm going to be a challenge except in. Perfect. I was like, who are you to stop me? Like, I don't-- also, who am I to be in charge of that? Like, grief's going to do whatever it wants to do with me. And I'll be sad to-- it's my party. It's my death. And I'll cry if I want to, sort of, energy with that. And I remember so distinctly a professor told me that after my mom died because I was in an honors class about political history. And that day, which was exactly two months to the day that my mom died, she was showing videos of famous political and historical funerals. Like, John F. Kennedy's assassination, MLK's assassination. And there were funerals, horses, horses going down the street. People in black, people craving, people crying, whatever. And I was like, this is too close to home. And I didn't make a scene, make a scene, heavy air quotes, because like, let's bring back making scenes again. I think more believers deserve to in public spaces. But I like gathered up my books in my backpack. And I just went into the bathroom for the rest of the class. I was like, I can't be in here. And I can't participate in funerals. And she knew my mom had died. And I came back in to get my coat, which I had left in there. She asked me why I left. And I said, my mom died two months ago to the day. And I just couldn't handle watching other people's funerals right now. And she said, well, you can't be sad forever. And I was like, OK, again, what a different life that would be if she would have said, I'm here for you right now. I see how you couldn't imagine any 26 of the month going by without thinking of her. Of course, you needed to walk out today. Oh, what a different experience I would have had. What my best friend died, I think-- it was a little different, because I had a grief business by then, and I am a grief coach. So I think people know to watch what they say to me from a grief perspective angle. But a lot of the things I heard were from distant relatives of hers, or even distant friends and family of mine who never really met her and their emphasis, even though their heart was in the right place, was on remembering happy moments and happy memories. I've just keep her with you in a positive way and let her light shine through. And it's not a bad message, because it's like those are things I genuinely want to do. It's like, I want to carry her with me in ways that feel incredible every single day. And I feel like I can still talk to her, and I see signs from her. And that's part of my belief system already. So it's like they're not telling me something. I didn't already know or practice. But the fact that it was laid on top of me as an obligation by somebody else, and there was no acknowledgement of the fact that it was sad that she died, or that it's hard that she's not here, felt like garbage. And so it wasn't so much the judgment oriented grief statements, which can really hurt. It was more like the overly toxic positivity silver lining grief statements, which just hurt in a different flavor. And again, how different would it have been if someone said, of course, you're still sad that your best friend is dead. She was your friend for 10 years. On her birthday, I haven't forgotten that you're grieving, or on Valentine's Day, which is her favorite holiday. I haven't forgotten that you're grieving, Tammy. And right now, however, you can connect with her, if at all, I am interested in hearing about. That's a totally different conversation. Then just remember her with love and toxic positivity, and just be grateful for the 10 years you had with her. And blah, blah, blah. I'm thinking about all the things I need to make sure I'm saying, currently in the future now, too, Shelby. So there's never learned enough. Yes, well, I never want to like pardon my French. I never want to like crap on how people choose to support someone who's grieving. But if you're interested in doing it differently, that's the work I'm interested in doing. And you can totally say things like, I choose to remember her with love, or I'm choosing to not be sad forever. Like you can turn them into eye statements and say it about your own grief and own processing. But it's when you like start dictating that grieving people operate the same way as you do or believe the same things you do, even if that's not your intention, that's when it hurts. And frankly, and this is so much of the motivation in writing the book, is that so many grieving people have told me that after the death or after divorce or after diagnosis, the second biggest thing they lose is relationships, friends and family members who drift away or disappear or say such garbage or awkward or heartless things that they do not feel safe bringing themselves or their grief around them anymore. And so they choose to exit from a relationship because a handful of words has changed how they see their emotional safety with that person. I'm trying to prevent that from happening. And so for the supporters who genuinely want to be there and say, I really give a crap about comforting my coworker, my next door neighbor, my daughter, my friend, any one that you are adjacent to who's grieving, and you want to do that through words, which I believe are our best free grief support tool in the entire world. No time or energy or money is needed to use words. We're already using them. This is the manual for how to do that. One thing that comes to mind with your book is those phrases which are so helpful. Of course, I'm here right now. I imagine them being in response to the person who's grieving, having said something, validating what you've said, I'm letting you know, I'm here for you. I'm putting this right now on it to be not feeling that way forever. Do you have any suggestions for how to start the conversation? That is so hard. Even for folks who have experienced a death or other grief themselves, find I don't know how to ask or bring it up or reach out. Absolutely. I love this question. No one's asked me this yet either. But it's so fantastic because you're right. We're generated in response to me supporting gravers. And I've tried them as responses to coaching clients, friends, and family, et cetera, in my own life. But people will like, well, if I don't want to necessarily be responding, if I want to be proactive and support them, something that I always recommend is don't just wait for the milestones, like a birthday or a death day or an anniversary to reach out. Although that's a perfectly good time to reach out. And it's worthwhile grieving people tend to remember the people that reach out. even years and decades later. Something that I like to do and I'm really trying to practice in this the year of our Lord 2026 even more so is if I'm thinking about somebody who just experienced a loss, I fire off a text immediately. Like as soon as they're in my head, I'm trusting, I'm like they're in my head for a reason, like let me just, and that's my own belief system, but I have an ex actually that I have a good relationship with still and when we were dating, she had two dogs and you will connect with this one because you came on my show to talk about Cap's death, your dog. And one of her dogs recently died, like within the last two months and we don't talk very much, maybe like once a year and she posted about his death on Facebook. And of course, I left a comment. I was like, Russell was the bestest boy in the whole world. I know he was your adventure partner for so many different things and she really did a beautiful tribute of his life. And then like three weeks later, I was on the train to work and like she popped into my head, I was like, let me send her text right now. And I said, Hey, no need to respond, which I advise in, of course, I'm here right now. Part of saying I'm here is no need to respond. You don't necessarily always need a grieving person to get back to you, the point of you supporting them is to give to them. But I always started with no need to respond. I was just thinking of you and of Russell. I'm here if you want to share any memories or photos of him. I'm sure the house feels empty right now or of course, the house feels really empty right now without his presence there. And right now, I bet the silence feels deafening. Like just it's different than saying I can't imagine what you're going through or I can't imagine what you're going through. It's just like based on what I know of what it is to to lose a pet or to have a pet die. I was like, the house felt really quiet after that. And to say, I bet the house feels really quiet. No need to respond. I know you miss him. Of course, you miss him. Just thought of you, no need to respond. That's a fantastic way to open, especially if you haven't talked to somebody in a while because a big question I get from supporters is like, it's been three months. It's been a year and a half. It's been five years since the funeral. And that was the last time I reached out. Is it still okay to text them to slide into their deems on Instagram to send a letter in the mail with a photo they randomly found of somebody's loved one in the basement. Like when they're going through the old ear books and stuff. Yes, the answer's almost always yes. Unless the grieving person has made it explicitly clear that you are not welcome in their life. I'm like, what can it hurt? And there's nothing I've enjoyed more. I've enjoyed a lot of things in my life. But there's really nothing that I enjoy more than hearing from people who remember my mom and remember Tammy without me prompting them to do so. Because I feel like so much of the work I know that I don't feel like I know that so much of the work we do as gravers is educating people on how to support us and how to be better to us. And so much of the initiation of I am grieving please support me comes from gravers saying, I am in need. I need help. I am remembering them on this day. I am posting their obituary and social media. I am remembering the two-year death anniversary on blah, blah, blah. So much of that is coming from gravers essentially sending a private signal of their own loss and waiting for the world to respond hoping that the world will respond. And so to do that unprompted is such a love language all its own. Again, whether you are like the closest friend or family member or like a coworker or an acquaintance or even a great professional, maybe even like here's a great example when I share in the book too. It's like if you are a general practitioner like a doctor or nurse that sees a grieving person once a year fold their loss experience if you know they have one into your exam, part of your exam questions. And you can say I know you lost your, whoever husband, this time last year I'm here even just in my professional capacity. Right now what is it that you're most struggling with with guard to your body and grief if anything? What an incredible way to fold grief into a conversation even if it only happens once a year. So that I'm going to stop giving examples now but but there are so many ways to open up conversation and we grieve forever grief shifts and changes over time but I believe that we grief forever and so I think that support and outreach and comforting surrounding grief coming from our friends and my coworkers that can and should also last forever. I really like that last piece you shared of like right now is there anything in your grief that would be helpful to share with me and I appreciate the right now not only as that a little bit of reassurance like of course you feel that way right now but also like right now how how is your grief showing up or how is it feeling in this moment because most often our go-to question is like how are you doing? How are you? And that's like impossible to answer it feels like to me it's a really hard care like about what and what kind of timeframe are you asking me? Yeah correct. I just wondered if you had more to say about that that that urge that comes up was like I want to check in on this person and ask how they're doing comes from a very like kindhearted place I'm I'm wondering about you if you had more to say about that question of like how are you and how that could be a tough one? Yeah absolutely and I actually did another podcast episode recently about someone who wrote in and said how do I respond when someone says how are you and I literally do not have the time and they do not have the interest in actually hearing a genuine response and so I did both a podcast and a blog episode of like here's 20 different ways to respond to how are you and they're grouped by you want to be the most vulnerable and the most honest about where your grief is all the way to I know this is just degrading and we're passing each other in the hallway and that's really there's no point in getting into it or this person is emotionally unsafe and I'm not interested in going there with them so you can check that out over on grief grower if you want which is the name of my podcast or if you just Google shall be for Sothea how are you and Google it will pop up this one of the first things but that's a very valid question so yes wrapping right now or in this season or in this moment along with the question how are you is a fantastic way to check in on a grieving person and and put like time anchoring time context around it because time gets really fuzzy when you're grieving it's like do you mean today do you mean this week do you mean since my mom died do you mean since I got handed that big project at work do you mean since I lost my job do you mean since this person got elected into office do you mean since the state of the union happened like what what in what context are you asking and so to even say how are you doing right now or how are you doing in this moment or how are you doing today and putting some prepositional phrase regarding time around it is a really great way to love a grieving person absolutely it's one of my least favorite questions in grief because I didn't know how to respond and so for a really long time I just said I'm fine how are you and I just redirected the question back to them but for people for grievous who really want to answer honestly or for supporters who really want honest answers asking how are you right now in this season in this moment is a really lovely way to deepen the conversation or you can say another way of saying of course is it makes sense to me feelings makes sense to me your experience makes sense to me but you could open a conversation with it would make sense to me if how are you is a hard question for you to answer right now if there are another question I could ask that would allow me to check on you or to keep talking about your grief with you that wouldn't feel so impossible to answer and that's another fantastic way to open up a conversation without how are you and like pointing a finger on them or putting a spotlight on them to know how they feel in that moment because a lot of times especially in ice cream I was like I don't even know there's like 20 things all coming up which one would you prefer I say out loud in these conversations about like what to say what not to say it's also helpful information and I know it can leave some folks feeling self-conscious or having some trepidation or like I don't want to get it wrong so they end up not saying anything at all and I wondered if we could talk a little bit about like why saying something usually is better than saying nothing at all yeah I um this is a whole separate conversation we could have but in my online course life after loss academy I teach that there are 10 no 11 different ways that hurtful behavior shows up between us grievers and the people in our lives I gave them silly names because that makes me happy but there's characters like the nuisance nurse who's always trying to prescribe you a remedy for your grief of like you just need to try yoga you just need to try lavender essential oils you just need to try whatever there's the judgmental jerk which are people like my professor you should be over by now you can't be sad forever I can't believe you're still grieving the most common one across all the students who've ever come through my course though is the disappointing disappear and this is the person who maybe they show up once maybe for the funeral maybe they're there the day your divorce papers are signed maybe they drove you to carpal couple times when you first got your diagnosis and then they vanish they they fade into the distance from your life for no perceivable other reason than that you have become a grieving person on some level and far and away the biggest pain that grieving people bring to me is that my friends and family have all disappeared they have all vanished and the only thing that's changed is that I had become a grieving person and so obviously this folds back into the story of I'm crazy something is wrong with me I am a problem people don't want to be around me all different ways you can say I'm crazy and for supporters who don't feel confident in their words or their language I agree with you something is better than nothing and also there's a whole section of this book about if you are hesitant to call yourself a comfort or a supporter or someone who offers this kind of verbal Assist, scaffolding to someone who is grieving. Here are the things that might be holding you back. The first one, and probably the biggest one from supporters I've heard so far, although I'm totally open to hearing others, is that I'm not a therapist. I'm not a grief expert. I'm not qualified to help. This is again a larger conversation, but our society has done a great job of making comforting people, supporting people through emotional distress, the job of the educated therapists, spiritual providers, pastors, people who have degrees or teaching in how to emotionally support people who are in some sort of suffering or crisis. But the thing that I argue in the book is that just as we are all grieving people, we are also in different seasons of our life, also supporters, and it is just human to want to be there for and support each other. You do not need a fancy degree or a diploma, or some sort of magical certification on paper, to say, "I can assist just with words someone who is in great pain or distress." I'm not telling you, I'm just going to get a little dark for a second. I'm not telling you you can prevent someone from slipping into despair. I'm not telling you that you can keep someone from feeling isolated in the world for the rest of their life. I'm not telling you you can make them happy. That's not the promise of the book. The promise of the book is that you can help grieving people feel a little less crazy, a little less long, and a little bit less like this is going to last forever. The pain is going to last forever. That's what the guarantee of these three phrases are. And they are intended for anyone to use for any type of loss. Again, for my daughter didn't get the part in the school play, my dress got ruined by the mud all the way to my best friend just died from a disease that has ravaged the entire world during the pandemic. Like these phrases are applicable for everything. So I really want to urge people who, even grieving people, because graveyards are often supporters, or like, "I've got a grief therapist. Even I didn't know what I wanted people to say to me when I was grieving. I knew what hurt. I knew what I hated hearing, but I didn't really know what helped. I encourage grieving people, especially gravers who are also supporters, to reflect on what do you wish you could most say to yourself or that someone would say to you and maybe start by offering that. And a lot of what grieving people say that they want is validation, permission to feel what they're feeling, of course, is reassurance that they're not alone, that someone has their back, that they haven't been forgotten or left behind or abandoned. I'm here. And some kind of hope, even if it doesn't, even if they're not the ones carrying it, that this pain isn't going to last indefinitely. And that is right now. So gravers, you can offer yourself these phrases. Of course, she'll be, it makes sense, that you're stressed about this book coming out, because your mom won't be in the audience. I've been doing a lot of that, of course, in my own life right now. The author, Elizabeth Gilbert, is a great example of, I'm here. She talks about letters from love, and she shares letters from love on her sub-stack. This is not a promo of her work, but the first thing she writes, I think every day, is like, love, are you there? And love, the voice of love, which is the voice of her higher self-response back. Yes, Liz, I am here. And so there's kind of this, you can accompany yourself from by yourself. And then, right now, to say right now, the world is in chaos, and it's okay that you need more rest. Or right now, you're missing your dog who died. And it's okay to need a little more time getting ready in the morning, because you keep waiting for him to show up. Like, what is it that even you can offer yourself before you offer it to other people who are grieving? Well, you said this up nicely, to talk about how you are feeling, about your book coming out in the world, and feeling, sounds like feeling a little sad about, you know, mom not being in the audience for the book launch. And yeah, just in general, how are you feeling about having this information of three simple things that we can all say to people who are grieving, be out in the world? Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's definitely a mix of things. The thing that's coming up this week, and I fully acknowledge this is a mix of world events and astrology and hormones altogether, is this is the first time that I am actually throwing a party for a thing I've written. The first, my first book was self-published, and my audience was pretty small, and so I didn't organize anything in person for it. My second book was released during the first six months of COVID, and so nobody was getting together for anything back then. And this one is the first time where it feels like the world is a safe enough place COVID-wise to host an in-person event, and my audiences have such a size that some people will come. Friends and family will come, but also gravers and grief professionals in the Chicago area will also come. And the thing that really has just calmed me over the head this week is that, oh my god, I'm doing this thing, and my mom won't be in the audience. My best friend won't be in the audience, and so I had this like dual grief of, my mom is dead, my friend is dead, my mom is dead, my friend is dead. I prefer to them as just records that play on repeat in my head all the time. The volume got cranked up way loud earlier this week, because it's now within like 30 days of when this is going to happen. And I don't say this, and I know you know this, and every listener who's listening knows this. But like I don't say this to be pittyed and be like, oh, by my book, my mom is dead, my best friend is dead. It's because this is truly, and everyone in my life knows this, truly one of the greatest accomplishments of my life. I love this book with everything in me, and I'm so excited for it to be in the world. And I feel like this is such a life-changing and easy framework. It's like three simple phrases that work all the time for all kinds of losses, and nothing like this has been written ever. To the point where my publisher was looking for like, compatible books when we were shopping around the market, they're like, nothing like this exists. I'm like, I know that's why I wrote it. And I am so freaking proud of this book. And also, similar to going through another major life, milestone without your people there, I'm like, also, I am also mourning my people not being here. They inspired this work, and they are also missing from it. And that is the two dualities. The two things I hold going into this is I am elated. I am on the mountaintop. I literally cannot wait to see what the world thinks of this book. I could not have imagined with the world thought of my first two books. And it's been more than I dreamed. And I know it's going to be the same for this one. And also, yeah, there's like an inherent, an inherent sorrow that's baked right in. And it's inevitable. I call this, in my Factor Laws Academy, we talk about the 1% grief rule. And it basically means that regardless of what you're going through, or what kind of day you're having, at least 1% of it, for the rest of your life will always be composed of grief. So I might be 99% happy over the moon, and 1% of the season of my life will be grief. Or you might be like 20% nervous, and 30% hopeful, and I'm in bad a math. Right now, 40% trepidacious, and then 10% grief. Like you could name all the emotions of the moment, and it'd be like, turn the dials of like, what percentage of this is grief. And just this week, the grief has been louder than the joy. And that's been surprising to me. I told my wife, and my wife's also a member of the Dead Parents Club, but this is the first time I felt parentless in a long time. Because my mom died when I was 21, and I missed her, and I ached for her, and I still do in lots of different ways, and also losing her in adulthood, I have largely been self-parenting since her death. And I've done a lot of things, and gotten a lot of jobs, and had a bunch of accomplishments and things like that. I even got married. My wife and I loapt. So there wasn't this expectation of like, end people will be there. So this is really the first time since I graduated from college in 2014. Six months after my mom died on Mother's Day, by the way, which was just a root of my university. This is the first time since then that I am accomplishing something in front of an audience, like this. And I'm really reckoning with Holy crap, and my mom's dead. And then the other layer, F, and my best friend's dead, there's so many of my friends who knew her that are going to be coming to this. And there will be one MDC that I'm going to be looking at being like, she should, she should be here. And this book is dedicated to her, actually, my friend Tammy, who died, because she and her friendship was so good at words. Even before this framework existed, I mean, I shared this with her a few times before she died, but not in the way it has ended up in the book. And her example of supporting people through all kinds of life stuff was just a really key part of the foundation of how and why this book got into the world. So my mom and my friend have both made this book and are also missing from it. So this book is part of their legacies. Well, Shelby, thank you for your book. Of course, I'm here right now, which listeners is coming out at the end of March, the 31st. So this episode's probably in your ears prior to that. So you'll want to go find the book wherever you can find it. And to, of course, be following along with all the things that Shelby, you're doing in the world with your podcast grief growers and your grief and loss. Academy, I'm saying that correctly. So I'll link to all the places that people can find you in your social media. But yeah, just thank you so much for writing this book and for wanting to come back on grief out loud and talk with me about it. And for the ways that you're going to be helping so many people, including myself, you know, get past just the ongoing three dots at the text. So like, what do I say now? And to have something to fall back on. So yeah, thank you. Yes. Oh my god. Thank you so much. I love coming on Grief Out Loud and I always say this is one of the first podcasts I started listening to after my mom died and it has played such a monumental role and how I've come back to life after loss. So thank you for making this face and for having me on again. I really appreciate it. Well, Shelby, thank you again and listeners. Thank you for being part of our community for tuning in for sharing shows with people who might be helped by what we're talking about here. If you want to reach out to me directly, my email is Grief Out Loud at taggy.org. That's just do you g y dot o r g. That's our main website and there you'll find all the information about our local programming, all of our free downloadable resources like activities and tip sheets and of course each and every episode of Grief Out Loud. I'm always excited to share that the podcast is sponsored in part by the Chester Stefan Endowment Fund. Grief Out Loud is a production of Deggy Center, the National Grief Center for Children and Families in Portland, Oregon. Thanks again for listening. We hope you'll join us again next time.