"Words Matter" (w/ Matt + Bowen)

This is an "I Heart" podcast. Guaranteed Human. I'm Melissa Jeltsin, host of The What Happened to Her Podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it, and the man they suspected wore a badge. "You never know who that devil is because he's wearing disguise, sometimes it's a police uniform." And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an I Heart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to I Heart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for I Heart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. I'm Fox Sports reporter Jenny Taft. And I'm former U.S. one's national soccer team player, Carly Lloyd. And on our new podcast, whatever it takes, nothing is off limits. I played with players that didn't truly love the game, I found the love with the ball at my foot. I don't care what I'm being asked to do at Fox, I'm gonna go get some reps and love it and embrace it. Listen to whatever it takes with Carly Lloyd and Jenny Taft on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. "Hey, what's up? I'm Tony Gonzalez." "And I'm October Gonzalez, but you can call me Toby. If you want you to join us on our new podcast, No Safe Words with October and Tony Gonzalez." We get real about marriage, parenthood, sex, divorce, and all the nitty gritty stuff we all think about, but just don't say out loud. You're probably just gonna be some rich guy and he's gonna whisk you away and whew. Listen to No Safe Words with October and Tony Gonzalez on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey everybody, it's me Matt and my tour is on sale now. This time it's really Christmas, you can go to www.MattRodgersofficial.com, podcast or a visual medium. If you're not watching me right now, I am holding in my hands my vinyl. It's called "Have You Heard Of Christmas?" The answer to that question is coming. At this time it's really Christmas. I'm playing all over the country and in London and in Canada, that makes it a world tour. Harry Styles, you're on Burn Notice. I'll see you soon. Oh, I see him, I don't know. Oh, and look over there, how is that culture, yes? Yeah. Let's call Johnnie Stass. Ding dong. Ding dong. Ding dong. I don't think so, honey. When I broke my ass falling off the top of a restaurant. Did I never tell you about my one crazy fucking insane moment that happened? Well, I feel like there's so many. Was this a crab? Or, I mean, what I had to reminisce about recently was the beginning of Uber when you screamed at me and-- Yes, you did, I can't tolerate this, you screamed at me and drunk at midnight. From Bradahook said, "Get me an Uber." No, no, no. So what happened was-- I was in my apartment going to bed getting ready for the week. You had finished a shift at Brooklyn Crab. You did not know how to use your phone. You did not know how to down the Uber app download which you could have done yourself. I didn't have to-- Well, Uber's problematic. So, who really wanted me? And the middle one was the last time you used Uber, my friend. Melissa used Uber today to get us here, not me. Melissa's problematic. You're complaining the assistant. You're caught. You're caught. Wait, so what was your big-- I was literally-- I think 17 years old, I was still busing tables at Nikki's on the bay. And I love that you remember my restaurants. And we all know the Matt Rogers lore in this room. Oh my gosh. Name my first workplace. Anyone? You don't say-- No one knows. I could. There you go. Maggie Moose. Well, the ice cream, the Maggie will do for now. The ice cream, the Maggie? It's Maggie Moose. It's an institution. Maggie Moose creamer. You were not allowed to sing and make tips, despite the fact that that would have been an amazing use of your talents, but they could never have known that you are the superstar that you are. I wink. You were 17 and Nikki's on the bay bus say-- I was 17 and Nikki's on the bay. What often happens is when you're working in the summer, like you're working in an outdoor restaurant, sometimes it rains. The restaurant was tented. There was outdoor seats and it was tented. What happened was the precipitation all kind of built up sometimes on the top of the tent. So what they would have the bus kids do is they would have us take a broom and poke the top of the tent so that the water would come off so that it didn't build on top. But guess where the water would go? It would start crack skating down. What happened was I was not doing this correctly. It took me a while to be good at restaurants. But I was poking the top to get the water off the side and the water sort of like cascaded down the tent and absolutely covered three women in their 60s or 70s. And I had just dropped their shardonnays off at the table and the waitress goes to me, you know, old ladies, all they drink is shardonnay. And I go, I'm thinking I'm in with this waitress where I talk and shit about the customers. Then they're doused and the waitress was like, I am so sorry, he's new and it's not been the first thing with him. I'll never forget that she said, it's not been the first thing with him. Holy shit, I don't think you've ever told me this story. They were drenched. They were patient zero, patient zero. They were patient zero of me working in restaurants. But then ever since you've gone on to have a really illustrious career and serve it. I turn them into pathetic ghosts. And I think what my waitress, whose name was Jess, I remember her. I think what she was saying was I one time had cleared a plate too early, like someone was still eating. And the second thing was, she had gone to the bathroom and the table was like, where's our waitress? And I go, I think she went to the bathroom. And then she got back on the floor. Is that not okay to say? Okay. So then she yelled at me because it wasn't the first thing with me. Right. She goes, she'll never forget. She snapped. She goes, if I leave the floor and I use the restroom, you never tell that to a customer. That's disgusting. I say, I stepped out. So from then on, I always say, she stepped out. She stepped out. Well, I say that about you when you go to the restaurant to do whatever it is that you do in there. I think you, I think you're always pretty transparent. I don't mind. I have nothing to hide. No, you're a very vile, fecal person. You vile, you vile, fecal woman. That's my favorite piece of writing that Matt Rodder's likes. I love Boeing. I wrote that into dialogue for Knightzo, but if you know, you know. He said, his character said to me, you vile, fecal woman. After your character, Bradge about eating my, my son's ass. Bring back Knightzo. Bring back Knightzo. Honestly, it's the number one item on the culture catch up this week, and we have to bring back Knightzo. I mean, no, I love that Knightzoap has, I love the sort of, um, exclusive, you love the unproduced lore of it. The ephemerality of Knightzoap, really, that it's not somewhere permanent or recorded. Oh, that's, that's so antithetical to the modern culture of capture, you know what I mean? Capitalism. Sure. You should be, have you had you gotten this book yet? The book that I told you you got? No, because I, I, but tell it, the story of your life, the story of your life, Katherine Joseph Morton. It sounds like a good Christmas gift for me. No, Matt, you need to read it now because you need to read it now because it will like help you. It sounds like an amazing early Christmas gift for me. Oh my god. Um, speaking of culture and the story of, yes, tell, you know it's serious when I bring the play. When you bring the play, though, you guys, I have to say this was one of the most special things I've seen, and obviously, you know, there's a, there's an item on your, you already have homework, and that's to see Bone Yang and bone Mary, of course, but because it's so difficult to get a ticket to that, and it's actually going till, and we can announce that January 16th, January 17th, I don't even know, January 16th, 17th, it just got extended from the 16th to the 17th. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That means you're spectacular. Um, this is schoolgirls or the African Mean Girls play I went to the premiere last night, much hyped, and it is for a reason. Yes. So this actually has been produced many times. It was off Broadway, Jocelyn B.O. I actually, I worked with her husband Austin Smith on a project this year, and we spent a lot of time together, became a project. A project very furtive. Well, I'm a very furtive person. Very furtive. And it's not been the first thing with me. It's not been the furtive. The furtive. That's crazy. Okay. Sorry. Keep talking about this. This is, so I, he is like obsessed with his wife, and she's this incredible player. I love that. Yeah. Love a man who's obsessed with his wife. We're talking about another man who's obsessed with his wife, shocking me, but keep going. Okay. So I was, so he had been saying, you should come to this premiere, and I was like, down because it's directed by Whitney White who did liberation, and it stars, among others, patina Miller who we love. We fucking love. Fucking love. Icon in this. And, Dine Benton, who is spectacular in this. Yeah. and I've been a fan of her since Unreal. - Uh-huh. - Do you watch the Guilded Age? - I don't watch the Guilded Age, which doesn't make me a real Broadway person. - You actually have to. - Now, if you're anyone on Broadway, you're watching or in the Guilded Age. - How do we get you in the Guilded Age? - I don't wanna be in it. Well, they weren't even just a back then. - Hey, I don't like that out of two. - Well, no, without out of two, there's not gonna be Asian people back then. - Yeah, you're right. - Okay, so. - And also, Jasmine, Amy, - Jasmine, who-- - Let's speak it into existence. She's also gonna be Maria and sound of music next year. - Big year. - She needs to be on the pod. - Jasmine, Amy, Rogers, needs to be on mom's clothes. - Wait, we got her. - She culture were nominated. - Winner. - Culture award. I think repeat, cultural award, culture award, fixture, absolutely. - This is, it was so funny. It was so heartbreaking. It was so illuminating. - Love all those words. - It's about, it essentially maps on to Mean Girls, but it takes place in an all-girl school in Ghana. And Jasmine plays an American girl who transfers into the school amidst them all needing to compete in the Miss Ghana pageant. - Love it. - Love that. - So, basically, Dene Benton plays like the Regina George of the school, she is unbelievably cruel, but you find out the layers to her character. It's an incredibly layered piece. It was amazing. It was, you looked around and everyone was just the same kind of spellbound by it. Melissa and I went last night. We were so blown away. - I love it. - So, school girls or the African Mean Girls play, it's top of your list. And it has to be. - Just to say, patina has been on my mind a lot lately. - Talk about patina. - Well, I'm just like, if I'm tired, that's crazy, doing Broadway, that's crazy. And this is not me. This is not another moment of Bowen Yang complains that he's tired. - No, it's Bowen Yang states that he's tired. - States that he's tired. I think about patina Miller going up at what, like 5 a.m. every day to run a marathon essentially before every show. It's like, come on, you can't. Patina is so fun in this. And by the way, to say nothing of Queen, I believe her name is Queen Jean. - Oh, yes. - Yeah. - Queen Jean, who did the costumes for Cats. - Who did Kordelka Ball? - Does these costumes, the costumes are spectacular. The set design is amazing, the direction, it's obviously, it's Whitney White, so she's amazing. - You wanna be another Polkwood on the awning, don't you? - I don't think I'm the person to have the Polkwood here, but I will say I am happy to provide as many exclamatory, positive quotes as I possibly can. - Well, you never steered anyone wrong in theater. - I'm trying to think if I, you know what? You know I try to be honest about it because it's so fucking expensive. - Of course. - Like, it's not like life of a showgirl, the uncle, which I'm gonna totally lie about, my opinion about, you know what I mean? Because that's free. - Okay, can we just, can we just get it out of the way? - So, here's two things I have about the life of a showgirl encore. - I wanna tie life of a showgirl encore to the last episode of Survivor. - No, no, no, not the last episode of Survivor. Two last ditch, two of the Western Massachusetts last week. - And that's why you tune into Lost Culture, because I'm gonna tie both of them to the first episode of Survivor. - Oh my god, okay, so then, okay, so then if life of a showgirl, the encore is the hinge, then should we start with Survivor or last ditch? - Let's start with last ditch, up to me. - So, I think most people have read this by now. - Boston Globes article about the lesbian bar, the last ditch outside of North Hampton. - One of the few remaining lesbian bars in the country, relaxed its KN95 mask mandates for one day, causing much consternation and upward in the community. - Lots of angles to the story, lots of reactions to the story. - Oh yeah. - What I will say, and I think it's the same thing that you really fucking zeroed in on, which I'm still thinking about, which I think ties into the way. I'll just quickly mention the last line of-- - The last line. - This piece is so, so interesting to me. - Haunting. - Haunting to me. Just it documents all of these really difficult conversations and things that have happened circumstantially to all people involved in the situation. And I think it kind of opens it up to the reader and to like what we're experiencing now in the culture. Someone says that's the price you pay for community. - Yeah, that's the price you pay to be in community. - To be in community, even more active. Thank you for including the verb to be in R. - Words matter. - Words matter. Let's just put that out there. And then once we talk about life of a showgirl, the encore, I will sort of bring this together. What do you want to say about it? - My feelings about life of the showgirl, the encore-- - The life of Asian girl. - Life of end words matter. - End words matter. - And that's actually title of it. It's a front writer for title of it. - Words matter. - Okay, do I think it is as bad as everyone is saying? - No. - I do think there is T.S.D.S. Taylor Swift Arrangement Syndrome. - Okay. - I believe it is crazy. The effect she has on people. However, I will say this. I think that, I think that Patient Zero is the reason why the whole thing exists, because I think she got excited about the idea of the music video. I think she thought, I think she created in her head what the music video was, got so excited and then to justify it, made the encore, made the four songs, because it feels like-- - It's operating outside of whatever T.S.D.S. 13 will be. - Correct. And I thought that she was really cooking for a while there, like I thought I knew it, I knew she did that great conversation at the Grammy Museum. It looked like she was really kind of gunning. I think she's gunning for finally a song of the year. When at the Grammys with I knew it, I knew it. I don't know if she'll get that, but I felt like that was the goal. I think she got so psyched about the Patient Zero music video, which I do think makes the song better. I think the video is kind of cool. I love Dakota Johnson, I think Colin Farrell's hottest fucking it, and I like the video. I have some notes, but I think that's the reason why the project exists. That bridge is crazy. And I like the song, but the bridge is kind of, I just need her to stop doing that thing. She does in the bridge, like I kind of want. - A little Meredith Marks. - I mean, it's kind of, when she goes into Meredith Marks on her bridges, she loses me a bit. You didn't stand up for me at all. - At all. - That's like a Taylor Swift bridge. - It's like a Taylor Swift bridge. - I also think that the song is about Ellen DeGeneres. - The song is about Ellen DeGeneres. - Oh, like I was Patient Zero. She was Patient Zero with Ellen DeGeneres. - And Dakota Johnson. Well, Dakota ended her, was Patient Infinity. - Exactly. - I think Dakota texted Taylor. I was like, I'm getting booked on. - Wait, you're in the genre show. - Actually, cooking. - So, T-Full right now. - If you look at the Tombstone. - It says 1986 to 2022. - Our 86 is when Ellen DeGeneres' career popped off. 2022 is when Dakota Johnson ended Ellen DeGeneres with four words. That's not true, Ellen. - You were invited. - That's so hard. - You were invited, ask anyone. - Ask anyone here. - I think Taylor was so terrorized by Ellen. For so many years. - Rightfully traumatized. - Exactly. And this is a piece about trauma. - Yes. - Someone was turned into a pathetic ghost. - You love when Taylor Swift uses the word ghost in her lyrics. - Have you noticed that she's obsessed with ghosts? - Yes. - And obsessed with aresses. It is always about someone's fortune being at risk. - Are we aress? What's that word? - At the end of Patient Zero, aress. - H-E-I-R-E-S-Aress. - O-O-R-E-S-Aress. - My girl hasn't been playing Final Fantasy VII. Sorry, I thought you were talking about Aress games. - No, but I would love for her to be inspired by something. - You got it. - It's so crazy that you don't know Final Fantasy VII or Kingdom Hearts because it's Aress, Gainesburg. Now they've changed to Aress, but as I've told you many times before, Mandy Moore, Nina Savari. - I know, I know. - Okay, keep going. - Hayden Fanatier. - No, no Hayden was Kyrie. - Well, that's what I was about to say. - No, you weren't. - Anyways. - Because words matter, I'm gonna say I'm sorry for that mistake. But did you know that it's always about an Aress? - Well, yeah, 'cause lately she's been running about like, "Oh, the will." - Yeah, it's like, "It's the will." It's like, "She's an aress who mysteriously dies." It's like, "Oh, yeah, I'm not going to make him die." It's always about someone's like, "Great fortune." And you know how much I love a great fortune. - You love the word fortune. - I love the word fortune. The way Taylor likes the word ghost, and that's a rule of culture. That's a rule of culture number 75. - Matt Rogers loves the word fortune, as much as Taylor loves the word ghost. - Go, guys, guys, guys, at a wall. Okay, so you didn't stick out for me at all. - Okay, so anything else about Patience Zero? - Can I say, yeah, Cleveland, I don't think it's all as bad as everyone is saying. I do think it's kind of, I think it's funny the way that people get. - Well, however, I don't think this is gonna be, I was willing to say, with Midnight's and Tortured Poets, we're going to revisit this era later, and they're gonna be some of our stronger errors. I don't think that about this, sir. - So this is what I think about, those are all great. This is how I wanna tie together life of a short, early on, core with the Western mass. - Yes. - Last ditch. - Sorry. Community is something that we have to pay for. Fandom is something that we have to, That can be bought. - Mm. - But I think the price on that I'm trying to sound profound, but this is just my assessment of it, is that I think Taylor is as engaged and as excited in the Easter egg process, as she is the songwriting process now, but there's an imbalance happening where all of the hype that gets built up, even over the course of just one week of her announcing patient zero and the tracks, even in that time period, there was so much excitement and hype and we'll say hysteria that it could not have possibly lived up to that in the songs. - No, because everyone did what they do when they're in a real, everyone did what they do in parasocial relationships or in relationships where they're not in communication with the person of their desire, which is they create everything in advance. And that is an extremely tough thing when she's kind of set this up, right? Because she'll say this is what's happening and then it will be so much more. So people have come to like in a Pavlovian sense like expect more. They've been conditioned to for her to over-deliver. And so now that she simply delivered what she said, it can never live up to the castles that people have built in their mind. Like I actually thought, despite me fully knowing better, that pink clouding was gonna be a duet with Ariana Grande. - Because you saw one or two posts on Instagram or something? - Not even that. I saw a ton of things on Instagram. Like you said, that literally perfectly spelled out why this could happen. It seemed like they were really communicating with each other. - It's already. - And then like, I know that's not happening. - Right, but because this is how, and this is why you should be the book, the story of your life. - Yeah. - This is what I'm saying. It's like, it's even gone out of Taylor's control the way that the Easter eggs are unfurled. So much so that there's this huge chasm between like the expectation versus what the deliverable is. - Right. - And the songs are, as you say, not like a bismole. - No, people are offended by that. - Right, it's like, they're fluffy songs. - They're deluxe tracks. - Yeah, it's okay. - Yeah. - They're not their best work. - But I'm not upset. - Well, this is the thing. It's like, I was thinking to myself, oh gosh. I hope like, I hope she has an album in the future where she doesn't do any Easter eggs for it at all. And then I went, wait a minute. She already did that twice with folklore and evermore. And those were in some ways her most celebrated albums. - Totally. - But like, as they came out and in retrospect, it's like, oh well, those are two of her best albums. - Yeah. - I feel like she just enjoys this thing like, started out with like her bolding the letters and the liner notes and the lyrics. It's like, she likes this part of it. And then I think now what's happening is, there's just, it's not super compatible with the way people consume her work. - Right, and that's I think too. It's like, when your fan base is ostensibly everyone in the world. And I don't, and I include people that dislike her in this because everyone is consuming. - Everyone's talking about it. It is impossible to satisfy everyone. And so what I think I try to remember about her is like, it's hard to, when you are the most watched person, create work. If I was her, I just feel like if it was me, and I was known as one of the greatest songwriters ever. And the most prolific, I would then think at this point, I wanna preserve my critical reputation, not necessarily like put everything out just because I know that people are going to consume it and there's gonna be discussion about it. I kinda felt like that's where her direction was going with this, 'cause she's probably gonna be up for it even when an Oscar, it feels like a moment where she could like solidify a critical reputation, no pun intended, but it seems like right now she's still having, she's still kind of in the show girl thing, which is a large element I think is, I'm gonna piss everyone off and be annoyed. (upbeat music) - I'm Melissa Jeltsin, host of The What Happened to Her Podcast. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing the disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform. - And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus and subscribe today. - I'm former USman's National Soccer Team Player, Carly Lloyd, I'm Fox Sports Reporter, Jenny Taft, and on our new podcast, whatever it takes, we're talking motherhood, marriages, careers, and figuring out how to balance it all. And we'll discuss the game that brought us together because nothing is off limits. - Do you remember your initial reaction when Fox called you to be a part of the World Cup? - I was like, "No, I don't wanna do it." You said, "No." - I played with players that didn't, I don't think that they really truly loved the game. I found the love with the ball at my foot. But in my head, it was the long game. It was like, "I don't care what I'm being asked to do at Fox, I'm gonna go get some reps, and I'm gonna learn it, and love it, and embrace it." - He said, "This group of people will never be in the same room as part of the same team ever again in your life, and it is your job to make sure that you enjoy the moment, you're proud of what you accomplish together." - Listen to whatever it takes with Carly Lloyd and Jenny Taft on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - Okay, so this ties back to Western mass last ditch. - Here we go. - This is my sort of big takeaway of it, because I think there's an initial response of like, "L-O-L," "Oh my God," which is a little tough for me. It's like why, it's written in such a dry register, but I think a lot of people are like, "L-O-L," pronouns, it's clown school, blah, blah, blah. - But I am laughing at it. - It's a hard one to comment on because it's-- - No, no, no, no, I know what my thing is. I'm just laughing at, "Oh, I'm hearing a white therapist "get lost." - White they, them tears. - White they, them tears. - White they, them tears was so-- - Oh, 'cause it was a, I had to stop it. - Well, it does remind me of my sister because it does remind me of our, one of our great episodes, "White with Coast School," where the bit of the episode was Matt Rodder's screaming at me, but operatively calling me white. - You're white. - Shut up, white. - You're so white. (laughing) - Hey, white, relax. We've heard enough of your white words. - So, hey, bow again. I've heard enough of your white words today. - Okay, so this is, so this, so these are my white words. - White Taylor. - These are my white words about last ditch. This is my white opinion, which L-O-L like, "Okay, this is my only thing about the Wasion Discourse." No, I can't bring this in. (laughing) Like, back in January when shit was going down, there were like, there was a whole fucking day loose on tech talk. I feel comfortable talking about this now. Of like, people, not even just Asians, but people saying like, I'm a boot like, or I wish I were white. And there was this like, I'm sorry, like, busted looking person who was, I think phenotypically Wasion, let's just say, saying that like, I wake up every day wishing praying to God that I were white and no, I wish I had blue eyes. And I'm like, Wasion's our Asians, of course, but I'm not going to have a Wasion person tell me and like, evaluate how Asian I am. - I don't know anyone who wants to be white less than you. (laughing) Say that to camera. - I don't know anyone that wants to be white less than this man. (laughing) - I think that that would be-- - And the craziest thing-- - If you woke up white, it would be like black swan. It would be like horror film. - These are my white words, back to last ditch. These are my white words about last-- - These words are white words-- - White words from Bowen Yang's mouth. We love 'em, we love 'em, we love 'em, we love 'em. - I met Natasha Bettyfield at the Wicked premiere. Anyway, goose. - I think I said hi to her and I was very star-spirer. - She was amazing on the carpet she twirled. - Oh, I love Natasha. I love her. - The legend, the voice in the words of Charlene incarnate. - White legend. - White legend. - Natasha Bettyfield is a white legend. That's actually really code number 30. Natasha Bettyfield is a white legend. - That's going in the book. - Well, no, no, no, no, no. So Josh Sharp, just one more thing. Josh Sharp loves quoting Charlene incarnate because one time, I think Charlene had done a lip sync to Unwritten and then Josh was like, oh my god, that was Charlene, that was amazing. And then Charlene incarnate. I don't even think she remembers this, goes. - The legend, the voice. (laughing) - The legend, the voice. - The touch. - No, but literally. - Okay, but say your white words. - My white words about last ditch. It, I think people understand now that the two things can be true thing about this particular story is like immunocompromised and queer people like should have places where they can feel like safe and secure and they can gather. And then the other thing is like a bar with no one going and that is out of business and cannot keep the lights on. In this moment in time, in the way that like logistics and overhead are situated in this particular moment in time. A bar that cannot stay open cannot be a safe place. space for anyone. - Of course. - And I also don't think we can have our society, the rules of our society dictated by anti social people. I mean, there's, I think there's a lot of people in this conversation who are not interested in community. They're interested in like pursuing leadership in online thoughts. - Yes, yes. - You know what I mean? And that to me is I think something that's like really, really evident to me and reading it is it's like, oh, I, there are certain times where it's like you're just, you're just kind of participating in a game that someone is moving the goalposts. You know what I mean? It's like you could say one thing and then what you've done is you've really just submitted to that person so now that they know they can own you. It's like we all kind of like do this thing online where it's like we get into a fervor because someone is attracting the most attention and now they are the moral high ground and before you know it, you've forgotten what you even think so you can create your own moral compass. - You have to read this book, I'm telling you. - I've heard you say that. - Because it is all about how social media cannot accommodate any narrative other than growth and redemption in an upward trending arc. It's like this is how much I'm growing, this is how much I'm becoming a better person over time. This is how my morals are developing in relation to other peoples who are inferior. It's like it just builds and builds and the alternative to that is like a flat narrative where it's like well maybe you don't change over the course of several years and that's okay. Also maybe like it's the narrative of capture versus the narrative of retrieval. It's like the earliest storytellers were like hunter-gatherers but there were hunters in the tribe coming back from the hunt being like these are our spoils. And the retrieval is like the antithesis to that where it's like well we just kind of stayed at home and harvested wheat and it was a great day. And it's like most days are like that for most people, including us. We just harvest wheat at home. We're not out there killing boars every single day. - No. - It would be fun. - No, I don't think so. I think the people who are doing that speaking of Taylor, the people who seem like they're hunting boars every single day, it's like I don't even think it's that fun for those people not even singling out her but it's like I hear you. The we do should at this of it all of social media, including like any sort of political or inclusivity discourse is like really, really hard to like navigate. I don't know. - Well, it's hard to navigate because we're not actually having the conversations. Really, we are, and we're communicating in piecemeal. And that is not, you know what I mean? It's not discourse. That's not actually what's happening online is not really discourse. - Right, right. Because in discourse, it's like you take someone at face value and you take them in good faith. What happens online is I'm reading what you said, deconstructing it, finding a way to respond that gives me the upper hand so that I can win this competition that are the things we are saying to each other. - So that's the thing, that's like what she's talking about. It's just like neoliberal notion that like growth is the ultimate thing. - Right. - That like, and it's like everybody, everybody lets like, calm down. You need to calm down! - On her best. - Her best. - Wait, but by the way, this all does bring me to Jeff Probes. - Okay, let's talk about Jeff. - So, this is like think the biggest thing. It's like whenever I'm in the comments and whenever I'm reading the comments, I immediately get really down on myself because, you know what, I know better. - Whoa, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, because I know better. I know it's not a healthy place. I know that what I just said is true about discourse. - I know where you're going with this, yeah. - And for me, it's like, what I'm observing in culture right now is you got a lot of people swearing they're not in the comments and then they reveal they're in the comments. Like Cleveland reveals that Taylor Swift is in the comments. - Is she in the comments? - She is a human being like the rest of us. I have never seen someone more in the comments. - Someone admit they are in the comments like Jeff Probes did on that premiere of Survivor. And even on pop cast, she kind of was like going off and off and off about how, like, why see what people are saying. - Yeah, and I think it's not serving him because to stop everything in that premiere, to yell at us for having an opinion on Survivor and the way that it has been lately. But it doesn't feel good as a viewer and also I could argue with Jeff Probest in that moment who is basically, he puts the whole cast of Survivor 51 in front of him and he's like, you know, a lot of people have a lot of opinions about how this goes and this is the open era which means anything can happen. We can bring back any Twister element from anything that's happened in the last 50 seasons and it's going to be fair game. And just to say, do you guys want immunity idols? And they're like, yeah. - He puts it to a vote. He literally puts it to a vote. - Do you guys want twists? And that's when I have to stop and say, Jeff, do you guys want twists? - Is this a rally? - It's so broad. - I know. - Like the fire making thing. Sure, I don't even think fire making is controversial anymore. - Well, that's what the poll was. - It was that and then it was just broadly. Do you guys want twists? Do you guys want the game to change? And they're like, yes, of course. They're not going to tell you no, Jeff. So you can't then turn to the camera and be like, you know, see? It's like, of course, they're saying that. And also like, but I just think it is a dismissal of the fandom that makes that show possible that to me felt a bit too self-aware. - Well, it's Jeff, perhaps being a human being like the rest of us, who's in the comments. - And his family. - And he's family. And he's like a tailor, he's like a you and I. We even just referenced, you know, all of the moments in the discourse months later, but whatever. But yeah, I mean, this did remind me of when Jeff was like, I'm going to put it to a vote. Like I think it was survivor 42 or one where he was like, should I say come on in, guys? - Right. - And on the one hand, I was like, that's thoughtful. That like signifies, it signals some kind of openness to adaptation or whatever, adaptability, I should say. But then on the other hand, with what you're saying, that's totally separate, but it's like, it reminded me of when Benson Boone had a poster for his tour where all the bursts were like, he just a backflipper, just I mean, it was him doing like, you know, hater marketing, and I, and again, I'm, I happen to be a Benson Boone appreciator. - I have appreciated it. - Oh, stop. But I, I just think he's a very, I just think, I just think he's a very special person and character. - He's a little talent. - He's, well, he's so talented. - Yeah. - But I'm just saying like, in this, in his, and he gets a lot of, a lot of specific energy directed at him, and he has tried this thing too, where he's tried to transmute it into like a self-awareness, but I don't think it ever works. - It's not interesting. It's not only, not only is it not interesting, it makes me worried for them, and it's not on them because I think they want it, they want to do something, like they need to direct this somewhere, they can't be the sponge for all of this weird, all the weird things people say at them, including Jeff, where Jeff has a very impassioned fan base. Hell, I've had survivor fans like come for me after I was thrilled that Coach was eliminated. I was like, get these people off my phone. - Well, they're like Coach fans, you know what I mean? - Just like that's your first mistake. - Yeah, right. But I'm just saying, like with the spirited fandom, like Swifties, like survivor people. - Yeah. - Psychologically, there has to be just an outlet, I don't know. - She has, Taylor Swift has done amazing work in response to public thought about her. I'm thinking about like, you know, - Please say it's anti-hero. - Yeah, and all of reputation, and even going back to mean, you know what I mean? - I'm like off speak now. - And me, and me, he he he. - Just kidding. - No, no, no. - But you like me? - I thought it was one of the great pop culture tragedies that she took out, Hey kids, spelled against fun. - You, why did she take that out? - 'Cause I think people made fun of it too much. - You know what, yeah, she got, maybe she got self-conscious about it. - But that is where, like, double down on that, double down on the fucking cringe. - On the cringe. - Yeah. - I think that, and I think that's kind of a little bit of it. - And so, and so, yes, and I was, was tying it, sorry. We'll go back to survivor. I was trying to tie into the last ditch of those two things can be true. Two things can be true with life of a show girl, the anchor, which is that she genuinely wants to, like, put a period on this era. And I think she wants to write for herself, and this is purely self-indulgent, in a way that is intentional in that she wants. - I think it speaks to, and I'm not doing gymnastics to justify anything. - No, no, no, no, no. - I really do think part of this era for her was being, like, bombastic and confrontational and maximalist and annoying. I think that, and so in that way, it kind of works. I will say, I have been waiting for her to do the aesthetic of Patient Zero for, like, a long time, like, just a little bit more, like, darker and sleek. It's, I just wish it was moving us into a new space. and was like, I was kind of excited to move away from showgirl because she said it's just gonna be these 12 tracks, that's it. - Right. - And that's a little bit of rule-breaking, I think, if I'm gonna be like a swifty about it. - So sure. - So I think there's elements of it that are promising in terms of that song in the music video. The rest of it, like, it's not, it's like I said, I think it exists to justify what's an idea for it, the music video that she was really excited about. - And this sort of organizing principle around this particular album and era, which is like, this is gonna be a lot. - It's chaotic, it's a lot. And I think that she's kind of, it's kind of like, like, Ariana's pedal. It's like, she disguises it as like, she really characterizes it as a relationship and Taylor is just being confrontational. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And. There's nothing, I just say this in the literal sense of the word, there's nothing poetic about it. - Yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And the good news for people that fucking hate it is that there is so much of the music that's amazing. Tinashe's album, I saw you've been listening to it too. - Really been loving it. - The pop star album, the pop star song. - The pop star song. - I still love Melatonin. - Of course, I love it. - Melatonin. - Nobody wanna dance anymore. Writing credit to Stephanie Dermanata on that. - Stop, really? - Because it is, and I cannot, because when I heard, I said, she's down my spine, I wanna heard this song 'cause she goes, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me. I go, she did not just interpolate chillin by Walay featuring Lady Gaga from 2008. - She studied. Tinashe said the pop star album is not gonna be just like a flip on what you expect for me, but actually like, kind of reminded me of the great impersonator a little bit by Halsey, where it's just like, I'm gonna slip into these different forms and comment on these forms and be really learned about these forms, so that you can know forever after this to not expect Tinashe to be what you've always thought. - I need to pull this legendary couple of tweets. 'Cause speaking Tinashe, speaking of her and her study-ness with other pop divas. - I'm Melissa Jeltsin, host of The What Happened to Her podcast. - We're kicking off this season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it and the man they suspected wore a badge. - You never know who that devil is because he's wearing disguise. - And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. - So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus and subscribe today. - I'm former USman's national soccer team player, Carly Lloyd, and Fox Sports reporter, Jenny Taft. And on our new podcast, whatever it takes, we're talking motherhood, marriages, careers, and figuring out how to balance it all. - I was like, no, I don't wanna do it. You said no. I played with players that didn't. I don't think that they really truly loved the game. I found the love with the ball at my fight. It was like, I don't care what I'm being asked to do at Fox. I'm gonna go get some reps and I'm gonna learn it and love it and embrace it. - He said, this group of people will never be in the same room as part of the same team ever again in your life. And it is your job to make sure that you enjoy the moment, you're proud of what you accomplish together. - Listen to whatever it takes with Carly Lloyd and Jenny Taft on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - This is the Tuna She Tweet, three, it's 2011. I'm sorry, 2011 she tweets. I just got kicked out of an elevator, dot, dot, dot, by Whitney Houston, like zero underscore big O. Like that face of like December 11th, 2012. Damn, I just saw her like a month ago, dot, dot, dot, when she kicked me out of an elevator, dot, dot, dot, R.I.P. Whitney Houston, what a voice, what a tragedy. - Jesus, damn, damn. - I just saw her about a month ago. - Dot, dot, dot, dot. - When she kicked me out of an elevator, dot, dot, dot, - R.I.P. - Wait, wait, wait, don't mean to laugh. - Excuse me, excuse me. - No one mourns harder than us. - No one mourns harder. - No one mourns the Whitney. - The Whitney. - Like us. - Museum. - It's actually, did you know I went to the Met? - How was it? - Yes, you told me you told me you had a fabulous time at the costume institute. - I went to the costume institute, I saw all the costumes. - Love that. - That was fabulous. - You would love a museum. - I do. - I'm sorry, I'm perpetuating. - You're perpetuating the rumor that I am on cultured. - How dare you? - You're so cultured. - Well, I just think because you are so precise and smart about all culture, that books, you would just, you would slay in books. And you're writing one right now in here. - Yeah, well, allegedly. - Allegedly. - Well, I'm trying to think if there's a, I think I started a book. Hold on, let me look on Audible. I think I started an audio book. Let me, and it's wrong that I don't know the book. - That's okay, sometimes it's hard to remember. - Okay, wait, I'm pulling up the app. Yeah, so I bought big little truths. - What's that? - Well, it's the sequel to Big Little Lies. 'Cause you know there's gonna be a new season of Big Little Lies. - That's right. - And apparently it's like, the kids are grown and, you know. - I don't know what else. - I hope so. - All I know, I didn't make it very far. - Honestly, I am two minutes and 51 seconds into chapter three. I have 14 hours and 39 minutes left. And I think I don't remember the first true chapter. - Oh, and they're gonna go back and read those. - Well, you know, I have a long plane ride today. - Oh, look. - What you got here? - This is me. - Oh, come on. - I should get that one. - Anyways, what else? - Anyways, 'cause there was so much. - Survivor. - Who are you liking on the traders? - I'm loving, I'm loving the traders, honestly. - Love the traders. - I like to make it. - And Joey is a really sweet Long Island legend. - There is so much gay and Long Island representation. - Well, we have to talk about you, hold on. We have to talk about something else that you confess to. - What? - In the dark. We'll hold on. Joey, getting emotional at being friends with a gay guy with Michael. - Yes. - That made me love Joey even more. - I got in Michael foot's DMs. - That's so interesting. - He's upstairs. - I know. - He's an I-Hard creature. - He's an I-Hard guy. - Okay, got to figure it, find out more about this. Now, 'cause now it's like-- - There's never been someone who's, there's never been a gay guy who's been more wrong than Michael. - So I got in his DMs and I said, I said-- - On the trade, on the trade, I said this gay guy is so smart and he's funny. - And he's wrong, he's dead wrong. - And he's dead wrong and he's wearing that colorful clothes and I got in his DMs and I said this. You remind me of myself. - Oh. - Which is how I know you lose. (laughing) And then we had a laugh. - Oh, I love that. - We had a laugh and a laugh. He gave me, he said, you're not getting any spoilers for me. I'm like, I don't want those spoilers. I just wanted to say I'm an appreciator of your style. And I think it's the three more episodes that you're gonna be on are gonna be really fun to watch. - That's really nice. - I could never, and then he was like, oh, would you ever do it? Or actually, no, when I saw Fadra at Titanic, she was like, no, would you ever do the trainers? And I was like, well, I, and honestly boils down to, I think I would just do too much. And when you're watching the show, you see the people doing too much. And you're like, you have all the critique in the world for them, but it's gotta be hard to not do too much when you are genetically predisposed to doing too much. And you're on camera. - Well, even if you're not doing too much, it's up to whoever's in that edit bay to be like, that one, make him a buffoon, you know what I mean? - And someone said like, so one said like, why are there so many annoying gay guys on the trainers? And I have two comments to that. - Jay is not gay. - Right. That's my third comment. - Okay. - That was shocking. - The way he enters the rooms, I'm like, my god. - And I'm saying that's someone who loves his wife. - Oh, yeah. - The way that, who was the other person who was the wife? - I think he absolutely gagged for his wife. - Yeah, who was the other person who loves his wife? That we were saying. - Um, my friend Austin Smith, Austin's spin of Jocelyn B.O., the playwright of School Girls. - Oh, fabulous. Okay, so what are your two comments on the trainers? - Oh, I don't think that, I don't think that there are more annoying gay men on this reality show than usual. I think if you think that you probably just are self-conscious. I think it's probably, like-- - And you know watch, and you clearly know watch Survivor where there are plenty of annoying gay men. - The thing is like, here's the thing. They're not even annoying gay men. There are gay men on screen, and acting like gay men on screen. And the fact that you think that is annoying is a comment on how you feel about yourself. - Actually, that is how-- - That is 1,000%. I could teach a whole fucking media studies class about this. Any time I would show up on screen, I don't say no, I'd be like-- - He's annoying. - I know, I'm annoying gay guy. I'm like, I'm not saying anything. - I know, the thing-- - I'm literally not saying a single, it's just people, there's just a media sort of like, collapse that happens when someone, Yeah, when there's like a some gay guy with a personality that's that's a big part of it sure sure because if you're gay and have no personality they love you That's just what they should love me No, you have a vivid bright personality and you have a vivid bright talent Mm-hmm, and that's the thing is we don't say the chance out there with these packets typing You know what I mean like it's not I mean I wanted to reach out to him as a as a as a colorful as a colorful gay voice out there Yes, okay, so now and then what was your your other comment? Oh my other comment. I add two things Oh, I also I agree with you that we give a lot and So we're easy to edit into characters, right? Yeah, and so it's a mixture of an audience that is You know has like a predisposition to be like oh this gay guy is annoying me and I don't know why you hate yourself and To the edit leaning into that because gay guys get on camera and want to perform totally that which isn't annoying It's just doing reality TV in a way that like you know People love when it's someone who is not representing them, you know, that's right Um, I just think I'm watching the show now and I'm like The fact that the traders aren't just doing the Cerefields playbook at this point right just like beat for B is like Stunning tonight. What do you think the Cereplaybook is Lalo? Yeah, and befriend in the most Cosmically significant way One or two people one or two faithfuls make them feel like you are They're family their family because do you remember I they were so betrayed? They felt so bad. That's what the gag was yeah, and and Cere was sobbing at the end of the series The season two I think that I think probably what happens next and so we're Again because we record these on Tuesdays they come out on Fridays We're gonna be a little behind so I guess this is just gonna be you'll know whether or not this happens But I think that there's probably a little bit too much on Katie I know it's for her to continue I think Xavier like did fuck her a little bit. Yeah, and I think that Ultimately, they're gonna be like why is Joe And so like he he can't help himself and they've already laid that it because he's from Long Island again. I get this And I think Tamika will probably go the furthest however I Think she's done enough of the I'm bad at this actually Tamika Yeah, because at a certain point They're gonna be like wait this woman is incredibly accomplished and gifted and smart like she's obviously applied for this game Like she knows how to play it. They wouldn't put her on this then again, Christy is there so Who's Christy? Christy is Mama Southern who has raised boys and has a bullshit detector. Oh, and she's and she's I know it when I say it and she's and she's been dead wrong too You're a liar. You're lying through your teeth. I know what I heard I know what I heard she did hear that correctly. She didn't though. She's Mama said she's kind of a ghost. She looked like a Taylor Swift ghost. Madeline. Yeah, she could be in the video too Okay, oh, I don't I don't realize that the video people in the video work goes Well, they're not but like sort of like it's you know, you're watching the video on like Taylor Swift It's revealed as like a ghost. I just think she sort of is giving that sort of like light-eyed like big brunette vibe of like I just think she aesthetically is in the Arousal palette for Taylor Swift, right you love Mama Christy. I love Mama Christy. I hope she goes all the way. I know I know, but I heard I'm not a liar God we got one We got one you need that you need that because traders is the perfect because you know what I thought She said I feel bad pick and cam no no no to be on the traders is the perfect show for people who are One not brave enough to go on survivor and two not quite smart enough to go on survivor Okay, do you skip the challenges on traders? Yeah, I'll be on my phone Yeah, I'll be on a second screen, which is tough. What's that? Yeah, I'm I'm locked in on I'm I usually I'm like 70% paying attention to survivor challenges too when it gets to the end when they're doing the puzzle what I watched it with a group of people and that is a way to stay engaged in the challenges. We mean like I watched it You know who's a huge survivor fan? Yeah, so a bunch of us went over to her place and watched it and when you are with a group of people It's so much easier to be engaged in the challenges watch parties are gonna make make the traders and survivor in all of it easier of course Because I am really only interested in the social the gameplay like the sort of politics that goes on with the personalities in the round That's what makes the show great. Obviously. I guess I take back what I said about people on traders not being smart Because there is something with the difference between traders and survivor is that like With the traders you can watch at home and be like well, they're wrong and on survivor There's no right or wrong way to do it. Yeah, yeah, I do think that the one thing the open era is gonna do is It's gonna make every single second of it chaotic Which I kind of like I welcome the chaos. I always say you got to play the terrain Yeah Do you not feel that 50 was chaotic? I thought 50 was pretty chaotic I thought 50 was chaotic because of like editorial decisions in terms of like why are we watching Zach Brown scuba dive right? Like I didn't need that like I needed probably like and I probably needed like 80% less Zach Brown And 80% more like confessionals from Tiffany who was a finalist on the show It's crazy It was I looking back on that. It's crazy the Tiffany. I'm Tiffany was at the VA's by the way You know who I saw last night at um schoolgirls Candace love and I was talking to Candace and she was like Why were the first three people out black and I was like I did notice a survivor of traders. Oh And that's been a thing before yes Madeline. Oh, right. Oh, but the murders. I guess. Yeah. Well a rissa a rissa by the way I thought a rissa would go all the way anyway. A rissa was on hot dog What a rissa dog she's a dog grammar rissa. Okay, so a rissa comes on screen. I swear to god The HBO max reality competition series that I hosted which you can't watch now because it was written off for attacks right off Physical media matters go and that's why it needs hot dog needs to be a DVD box at I hosted a 12 episode reality competition show on HBO max It changed my life at the time financially. Oh, you can't watch it beautiful a contestant was a rissa the dog rumor Recently departed on the trainers, but I was I literally shot up out of my seat I'm like, oh my god. I think that's a rissa. That's amazing. I love that. It was so funny I wanted to see her go further, but it was weird what she did with the hands. I was like, what are you doing? Oh, I loved that. I was very much. I was like, I get what she did that, but it is like It is such a moment that like people are going to talk about it Like I feel like you can't do you can't do a thing where it's like, okay guys I'm stopping everything to do something Speaking of canis in a post-congalign world. Yes Any weird thing that happens at the on the traders everyone has to be like, well, what was that? Was that a ritual? No, but can't can does doing the Congalign out on the traders is a big moment. I Melissa Jeltsin host of the what happened to her podcast We're kicking off the season with the sander birchmore story a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm Her family never bought it and the man they suspected wore a badge You never know who that devil is because he's wearing disguise Sometimes it's a police uniform and you can get access to all episodes a hundred percent ad-free with an iHeart true crime plus subscription Exclusively on apple podcasts available only to iHeart true crime plus subscribers So don't wait head to apple podcasts search for iHeart true crime plus and subscribe today I'm former u.s.man's national soccer team player Carly Lloyd and Fox Sports reporter Jenny taft and on our new podcast Whatever it takes we're talking motherhood marriages careers and figuring out how to balance it all And we'll discuss the game that brought us together because nothing is off limits Do you remember your initial reaction when Fox called you to be a part of the World Cup? I was like no, I don't want to do it. You said no I played with players that didn't I don't think that they really truly loved the game I found the love With the ball at my fight but in my head it was the long game it was like I don't care what I'm being asked to do at Fox I'm gonna go get some reps and I'm gonna learn it and love it and embrace it He said this group of people will never be in the same room as part of the same team ever again in your life And it is your job to make sure that you enjoy the moment you're proud of what you accomplish together Listen to whatever it takes with Carly Lloyd and Jenny taft on the iHeartRadio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast I'm realizing the one thing we really didn't talk about was um VMAs the VMAs lot happened lot happened Um Thrilled for Madonna through Madonna had a prime time. I saw prime time yesterday. I'm looking at the doc now Okay, let's so you're thrilled. Let's talk VMAs for a second second and then we'll switch into that and then we'll end but tell me about your thoughts on the VMAs. Fabulous, I was just, what a thrill to see Madonna up there with a person who practically, the reason the VMAs are still on is her. I loved Sawadika, Sawadika, and I thought it was a nice moment of light. Casey was great. Casey was amazing and I loved Madonna and Sabrina having a moment together. I think Madonna did and I say this lovingly, a beautiful boomer thing which is like, I DMed you a bunch and you didn't respond. I thought, well, here's the thing. So it was kind of just an evening to honor Madonna. The reasons why the VMAs have been iconic and it felt to me and I think it was a well-produced show. I think everything was great. It did feel to me a little bit like this, the VMAs are sort of ending because it was on CBS and it also feels like there's kind of a nice three-act structure here with Madonna. It's like Madonna in the heyday of the VMAs, the like of Virgin performance, etc. Like moving through like the Vogue performance. These incredible moments that created the iconography that really the VMAs stands on through Act 2, famously the Christina and Brittany Kiss. Now to this, she's having this huge moment with Convessions 2 and really the VMAs and Madonna are a story together in a way. It kind of feels like that. And my favorite moment of it was yeah, the Madonna and Sabrina stuff. I was kind of disappointed to realize because I watched it later, the Charlie Scowling at Taylor. That didn't actually happen. Which felt very VMAs to me. Like Charlie Scowling Taylor, while she accepts an award, that felt video music awards to me and then I realized it didn't even happen. And also if that were real, it would have been interesting. It was just interesting to comment on the fact that Charlie was just even clapping along anyway. It was a funny gift. I mean, no, it's on its own. It's fabulous. And it is it will last. It will last. It will stand a test of time. So Sabrina, I will say one thing. This is what I wanted to comment on. So she's cast as Ginger Rogers and Ginger in the Fred Astero bio pick with Tom Holland. I think that is going to be a huge moment for her. Absolutely. My opinion is Sabrina Carpenter of her pop star peer group is the most natural movie star. And I think that I was watching actually clips of Fred and Ginger dancing together. And I could see Sabrina doing it. And I was like, wow, I think that there is like an unmind well of like starting for her in that medium that I think she is really well suited to. I was really excited to hear about that casting. That feels exactly right. I know. That's exciting. Sometimes casting. Well, casting directors are some of our most. There's some of our hottest people. Oh, and casting directors are incredible. I want to just say to all the casting directors out there. Thank you for what you do. And a lot of us want to suck you. And my take is that casting directors have had enough love in recent years because y'all have a fucking category at the Oscars now. That's enough. So everyone out there who's written taken bow and yang off casting list because of that casting me. Well, they're not casting me either, girl. There you go. You got cast by Henry Russell Bernstein and Bow Marry. Well, Henry, Henry, Henry, Henry's a dear friend of ours. So you sucked him. You suck for rolls. You suck for a bow, Mary. I suck for a bow, Mary. I did. It's rule of culture number eight. Bow Yang sucked for a bow, Mary. Um, not sucked in. He rocked in. I. What do you mean I was sucked? No, I'm saying you'd. So you said Bow Yang sucked for bow, Mary. Oh, yeah. And not sucked in by rock. I rocked in bow, Mary. Is there anything literally? Oh, oh, I saw the history of concrete. Oh, yeah. The new John Wilson, Doc, do you ever see, um, how to a John Wilson? No, I'm a John Wilson, Neil, but I loved this. And I was, I went to the IFC and all the screenings all day were sold out, which I love to see. And I sat in a terrible seat in the front row in the middle, up like this and still have the time of my life. It's really kind of fascinating. And I still am working out in my mind what it was about. Because there are layers to it, but in a way, he kind of is like he talks about how after the show how to get canceled on HBO, he then is looking for other work. And he's kind of just real, he stumbles upon the history of concrete and he tries to sell it like it's a hallmark movie. And I'm still trying to work out like exactly how these things connected, but they did work out for me commutically. And what I love more than anything is just not a mean, um, depiction of normal working class people, but a very real honest and comedic depiction of working class people. There's a guy that works at a company that called gum busters that, um, sucks the gum out of the concrete on the sidewalk. That's huge. And he is so excited to be on camera talking about what he's doing. He's like posing for the camera. Is any of the straight guys in here see history of cock just you? Anna and producer Anna is kind of our straightest guy. You kind of one of the straightest guys that works here. What do you know? You want to see. But but but but but see and if you've seen how to it's like he he has this lens towards like, you know, regular people all the time. It's like it's very sweet. I love it. And it was like here's the thing. It was like he clearly is gaining all their trust and getting all these people to sign waivers so that this can happen. And if I was in the movie, I was thinking like, how would I feel about being depicted? And obviously, I can't step into these people's shoes. But all I can say is like, there is something very obviously real, but there's something really kind of gentle about the way that he's depicting people even if they're edited in unflattering ways. It still feels gentle and loving and appreciative. Yes. And like it's it's not coming at anyone's expense. And I appreciate that because it very well could. I think there's like three different kinds of registers now with documentary. And I'm going to include reality in this. Like it's like very cynical. Yeah. Is one. And then it's very like elevated, like almost lionizing in a way in the other. And then in between that is just like what you're talking about, which is what John Wilson does very well, which is like gentle, pretty expansive, really nice. Yeah. Well, it and there's a really surprising revelation at the end. And it's, I mean, I think I'm going to be in my dock bag this fall because also I can't wait for you to see everything because the trailer was even better than the time. Yes, I love the trailer. But yeah, I'm just like fast re-fascinated again by speaking of Lance Oppenheim. Yes. I really enjoyed primetime. I kind of knew it would not be like a traditional sort of like biopic is in the right word. But it's like I knew would be like presented in very specific way based on the trailer for that, right? Because we saw the trailer for primetime. Yeah, I thought it was a thrilling trailer. I want to see it this week. Um, really interesting. And Pattinson's fucking amazing. He has the coolest career in Hollywood. No, it's amazing. Yeah. And happy for him in case they both there, they both like, oh, yeah. No, everything worked out exactly right. They figured it out. Even though, you know, I'm sure that was a very strange experience. They're both going to be holding Oscars within the next five. Okay. Um, your lips to God's ears. I think Pattinson first and Kristen's second just because they're going to want to. Yeah, yeah. Um, Merit Weaver stands. We are. We're so back. So back. And Skylake is on do. Yeah. Shout out. He's having a big moment. Now he's going to be in the Falkers. He's going to be the Falkers. Yeah. Um, Phoebe Bridgers. Phoebe Bridgers is so good. Yeah. Not in the movie quite enough. I would say. I love. I'm sure she was working. I love when like a musician that you think in your mind couldn't give a fuck about like making this transition. Like low key mixes transition and in such like an unbothered slay way. Like, because you know, you know, like, it's not the same, but it's like it reminds me like Carrie Browns. Do you know all of us under being like an amazing sketch comedian? Right. Exactly. It's like, whoa, like a riot girl is like the funniest is doing put a bird on it. Yeah. Well, that also reminded me of because Verity is coming out. That's going to be the next one. I see I heard Verity is a scream. It's basically a patient zero. I made a video literally this morning. My friend was like, um, is this is this a Verity tie in? Uh-huh. And I'm like, honestly, maybe maybe in some like some conscious way. Sure. Maybe it kind of does feel like that. Uh-huh. But um, show Walter directed it. I know. And I'm like, talk about someone who that's my guy. I love Michael show. I know. I've loved him as a fan. Yeah. So he's such an interest. He directed for people that don't know. He directed. I love that for you, which was the series I was on on showtime. And he's such a fascinating guy because he's like a sketch comedy God, but he has this way of directing, particularly lead actresses. He also directed, you know, to Ty and with you, you can see everything. He directed, um, Amanda Cypher, Oh, I wouldn't drop out. Drop out. Yeah. So he's, and he directed Tammy Faye, which got Jessica, her Oscar. He also directed the idea of you with Anne Hathaway. He and Anne Hathaway have like a real thing. And there's something to be said about sketch comedy needing to be so many things that happen. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And then in the maturity of those instincts, you start to be able to understand many different genres because in sketch comedy, you need to be able to be all the genres so that you can satirize them. And then you see these people take them seriously and it's really interesting and cool what happens. And you just understand. Yeah. You just understand the fractals or you know how to like macrocosmically tell us to write whatever. Yeah. You know, like, I just thought it was great. I thought it was, um, very a linear. I thought it was like just, it's just don't go in expecting like a gripping like full story. It's just kind of like, it's, it's more of like a mood piece about like this one man's obsession with like making something crazy on TV because then you, because you watch it and you are like, God, to catch a predator really was fucking crazy. Rough. He's never watching it because I was always watching loss. Uh huh. It was out of his. That's literally a whole plot. Stop it. I think the real Jeff Zucker. I was maybe too. Yeah. It was the real Jeff Zucker. And I was like, Oh, God. Why am I watching Jeff Zucker act? But um, it wasn't good. It's a whole thing. I mean, I mean, he like I think he matched the tone of it to Jeff Zucker's credit, um, like match the tone of this. That's only culture number 60 to Jeff Zucker's credit dot, dot, dot, dot, um. But it's a whole thing. We're going to put you on the same time as any good, like a book looks at the board lost. It's like it's, it's nuts. And then, um, and it's just this whole thing about like the Giuliani journalism meets like this bloodlust that we all have for like justice meets like, it's kind of tying it back. It's tying it back and it meets this like, you know, our society's interesting perspective on pedophilia, interesting and whatever, not in the, not that it's complex entertainment. And, and in the, and in the sort of like weird, like X-ray judicial way that like they were humiliating these people who sure like we're doing something immoral and disgusting. But it was like people like decoying and like bringing up the proposition of sex first you then lower these people. And it's just, it is so complicated. And obviously it's, well, it's, you know what's funny? It was a very cavalier show because what's happening there is what you're doing is of course on face value. It's like, yeah, sure, you're catching predators. What you're also doing is you are making it entertainment. And that is incredibly triggering to people who have really been abused, who have really been attacked, who have really been, who have had family members who maybe aren't here anymore because of the seriousness of this, because it is very serious. And just to kind of like, you know, what were you going to say? Well, no, no. I mean, you're absolutely right. The movie kind of ends on this really violent tragedy. Yeah. Which really happened. And even in the moments right after this, like kind of what the thesis of the movie is just that like it is purely for spectacle and entertainment. Exactly, because like there's the producer has the take of like, well, fuck, we didn't get to interview him. So you already know the tea. Well, I know, I know basically I wonder we were going to talk about it. Yeah, yeah. Because I saw the doc. So I just feel familiarized myself a little bit. But I guess, and we won't end on this note. We'll do something stupid to make you forget, but the way that, and I mentioned this a few months ago, because nothing ever really happened with anything. Anyone that was like, you know, or implicated in the Epstein stuff. And the way that this just gets casually and cavalierly stone around is incredibly triggering, which is why I've been really heartened to see people actually take as seriously as we should. The Cornell 7, who should absolutely rot. And the 57 people in that fucking fraternity who did not call for help when that's happened. Absolutely. Because we are too comfortable with this just being news of the day. And we did it with school shootings, and we've done it with politics and need I remind you, he is, he grabbed him by the pussy. Our country and our media just continues to accept this. And it has to be up to fucking Florence Pugh to make a stink about on Instagram, who by the way blurred her post. And then she called them out on it again when she posted again. Whom meta blurred her post? Yes, they did. Yes, they did. Awesome. They deserve to be fucking dragged for it. So now we have to do something stupid. Amazing segment. Who's on the phone? That's how we're going to end all the catch-ups. We're not doing anything so honey. Who's on the phone, bro? Hello. Oh my god, it's Bruce Melanch. Will you have that button, Bruce? What is this bit? We have not talked. We cut that out. No, we don't have to cut it. Cut that out. Well, how do we end these culture catch-ups? Because I'm not doing it. I don't think so honey. Okay. How do we end it? Who is your favorite mascot of the moment? Masked out of the moment? Yes. Well, the Philly fanatic. Okay, that's great. Mrs. Matt, who was recently inducted into the mascot Hall of Fame and is the first female mascot to be inducted in the mascot Hall of Fame. Can we just clap for Mrs. Matt, please? Meeting out, Ellie, the elephant, stopping. My feel a certain way, but Ellie was very supportive because she did show up to Mrs. Matt's birthday. I like an underdog narrative for Ellie. Did you see Ellie, the elephant is releasing new music and it's very Mariah. The Ellie, the elephant aesthetic is very like, you know, it's like Mariah and silhouette feathered hair sort of giving like emancipation era. Yes. Really like that for Ellie. She's saying Mariah out of liberty game recently. Yes, she did. Well, that's what I'm saying. She sort of in her Mariah bag now. She's in her Mariah bag. She's in a new era. Absolutely. Ellie, the elephant having eras, it's so fun. I love Ellie. Oh my god. I love her. She will be inducted soon. Well, we are about to record our episode with Edie Modica, which you can look forward to this Wednesday. And we're excited about it. We're so excited about it. And this has been our first culture catch up that we're releasing the same weeks as our regular episode with guests. And it was fun. It was fun, wasn't it? More to come. So every episode with a long stare into the camera as there's a slow fade out. We end every episode with a little gasp. Hamilton. [laughs] I love Hamilton. I love Hamilton. I love Hamilton. I love Hamilton. Hey, everybody, it's me, Matt, and my tour is on sale now. This time, it's really Christmas. You can go to www.MattRoger'sOfficial.com, podcast or a visual medium. If you're not watching me right now, I am holding in my hands my vinyl as cold have you heard of Christmas. The answer to that question is coming. At this time, it's really Christmas. I'm playing all over the country and in London and in Canada. That makes it a world tour. I'll see you soon. After kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snow storm. And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an iHeart TrueCrime+ subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to iHeartTrueCrime+ subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts. Search for iHeartTrueCrime+ and subscribe today. I'm Fox Sports reporter Jenny Teft and I'm former US one's national soccer team player, Carly Lloyd. I played with players that didn't truly love the game. I don't care what I'm being asked to do at Fox. I'm going to go get some reps and love it and embrace it. Listen to whatever it takes with Carly Lloyd and Jenny Teft on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's up? I'm Tony Gonzalez. And I'm October Gonzalez. But you can call me Toby. We want you to join us on our new podcast No Safe Words with October and Tony Gonzalez. We get real about marriage, parenthood, sex, divorce, and all the nitty gritty stuff we all think about. But just don't say out loud. You're probably just going to be some rich guy and he's going to whisk you away. Wow. Listen to No Safe Words with October and Tony Gonzalez on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mimi Brown, and every day on Front Page Podcast, I help you make sense of the stories shaping our world. Each day, I break down the biggest headlines. Canada's trade fight with the U.S. just escalated again, and Americans could fill it in their wallets. And when a story deserves a deeper conversation, I'll sit down with experts, newsmakers, and thought leaders to help you better understand the issue behind the headlines. Listen to Front Page from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human