'Wonka's Golden Ticket' might be a new low for reality TV, and who are the best Black TV dads?

In our time is a world class seminar every week. Why was Jeremy a lonely snail? What were lines doing in York in the third century? I'm Misha Glenny and every week I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world. It's one of the first times really that you consistently see someone painting teeth. I know that sounds bonkers. If I was going to define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure. In our time, listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a cbc podcast. Look, generally we're not in a shortage of the Willy Wonka story adaptations, but we have not seen anything like Wonka's golden ticket. It's a new Netflix show that takes the setting of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and turns it into a reality TV competition. Think basically squid game, but with sweets. I'm Ella Meena of the Mahmoud and this is commotion, Alison Herman is here, Auntie Donna, who's here. Hello to both of you. Hello. I don't feel good about saying the sentence squid game, but with sweets. I don't like that about myself now and now that we've done that, that's a rough way for me to start my morning. You understand this? Maybe before we even get into the conversation, it will be useful, I think, for people to just hear a sample of what the show sounds like. Oh, shoot. Attention. Attention. Sorting machine malfunctioning. Candy levels critical. Please report to the sorting room immediately. The store is in a nightmare. Yeah, that's crazy. Attent to the what? With sorting machine. I don't know what's happening. What kind of emergency could you have in the chocolate factory? Right, so you have, you know, a voiceover saying candy levels are critical and you have a contestant going, this is crazy. And that's a scene from this new show. The show is wonka's golden ticket. Contestants compete for a $3 million prize. Allison, I really got to start. Before we get into this thing, who is this for? Who asked for this? Why are we, why are we here, Allison? Well, the answer to who asked for this is basically Netflix. Which acquired the role-doll story company, which is the company responsible for monetizing the rights to role-dolls intellectual property five years ago in 2021. And they do have some scripted projects and the works based on that IP. But, you know, scripted stuff takes time. It takes money and unscripted stuff is cheaper and faster generally. And so you mentioned Squid Game, which I think is an instructive example. And that was another thing that Netflix decided and wanted to turn into a franchise. And before Squid Game Season 2 came along, which again took time and money, you got Squid Game the reality show. And that, you know, the consideration is basically what can we get in front of people as fast as possible and is not, you know, does this resonate with the themes of the original text? And that's how we get here. Yeah, the idea that this could have any connection at all with the themes of the original text is just completely not on this planet. Do you want to just explain, Allison? Would you like to suffer the indignity of explaining what happens on the show, if you don't mind? I love indignity. So, basically, people contestants compete in pairs similar to the original novel, but they can be eliminated in single batches, which is important. And they report to what I have to admit is a very impressive physical recreation of the chocolate factory that we all recognize, not just from the book, but from the 1971 movie, like parts of the set are edible. There's versions of the half office and the chocolate river and the television, you won't go vision, but there are challenges that occur in these settings that some of them are physical. Like, can you stand being twirled around in a circle while a bunch of licorice falls from the ceiling, or, and some of them have a weird, like, big brother-esque social gameplay element, where players themselves have to make choices and forge alliances. And it's sort of this, like, unholy hybrid of multiple styles of reality competition. And I'm of two minds about this. The first one is, I think I hate this. And then the second one is, I think you and I would do great on it. You know, like, if we were competing for $3 million, I think you and I would win. That's, that's, that's the thing I'm going to tell you. But also, can I just say, you hear that this beloved childhood classic is being turned into a reality show? What is your reaction to that? Well, first, my reaction is, like, we would win, because we're sick. We're sick people. We're so good at this. We're not normal people, and we are warped beyond all recognition. Also, here's my thing. I have a very complicated relationship with Charlie and the chocolate factory. Like, my allegiances to Raldor are Matilda and the VFG. So I always have seen Willy Wonka as this, like, I mean, an abuser of human rights in this factory. Like, people are, there is, I know it's supposed to be a blessed about greed, etc. But who among us would not have, like, turned into a blueberry or fallen into the chocolate river? That's just another Saturday night. But I find that those stories that I grew up with have this heart. And I always felt like Willy Wonka was this sociopath. And I did not feel anything for Charlie. And I wish them all doom, all of them. Maybe the duplicates set them free. Everyone else get out of my face. Yeah, I feel like there's also something about the idea of, okay, I definitely spent all this money on, you know, all the Rural Dell IP. But I've been seeing Charlie and the chocolate factory, like slot machines, like casinos for some time. There's not exactly like the most sacred IP, right? And no, it's the, I mean, we've had the Gene Wilder version that is canon. That stays the use of wiggle, get to it. But he should, that is beautiful. Art, we love him. But then we have Johnny Depp. And then we have Timothy Chalamet. And then we have the slot machines that I have played at the casino. And you want to be honest about something? It felt right because it was camp and it was weird, just like the story. Yeah, yeah. This is, I feel like this to me is like, okay, this is a whole other territory of this. Allison, you've got a more sentimental attachment to Charlie and the chocolate factory. More than Anne anyway, like maybe less of a terrible view of this show's concept. Do you want to talk a little bit about like why it doesn't work for you? Sure. I mean, I think one of the things I, as a kid, resonated with in Rural Dell's work, is that he's willing to acknowledge and play to the sort of meanness that children have. Like there are a lot of very cruel caricatures. And you know, you feel a certain amount of shot and freighter with towards Augustus Gloupe or Verucasal to my TV. And I think when you're in the hands of an author and these are fictional characters, you're able to kind of manipulate that line and walk that tonal balance between the sort of cruelty and the ultimate moral of the story, which I think a lot of us can agree with. Yeah. And also treat Willy Wonka as this, you know, this book is very clear-eyed that this is a very damaged person who's not a role model. It's not an endorsement, yeah. Yeah. And I think when you transpose that onto a reality show where Wonka is referred to all way, like as a computer program because he kind of is and you sort of this faceless taskmaster and people are just blively participating in these challenges. You're not as able to use a narrative to communicate an idea. It's just kind of the most unsavory parts of the story that are not being used as intentionally as doll originally did. Let me ask you real quick, how are the umpalimpas treated in Wonka's golden ticket? Well, they get body diversity, which is not something I ever thought I wanted from my umpalimpas on screen. One of the umpalimpas is actually one of the original umpalimpas from the 1971 film, which is fascinating. And my colleague at Variety did an interview with him, which I suggest everyone seek out. But then you also get big umpalimpas and female umpalimpas. And it's just such a bizarre, like, who asked for this? Why is this happening? But they're used as kind of like court gestures who sort of come on and dance and run around while the contestants suffer. Well, I'm going to tell you this, like if the theme of this conversation about this reality show is who asked for this? The show is getting a lot of criticism for lots of stuff, but um it's particularly getting a lot of criticism for this. You will test my factory. What is it? Or is my factory testing you? Don't worry, something only goes wrong three times out of 10. It may be you're having a reaction as you hear that voice. That voice is the voice of the late Gene Wilder, of course, played Willy Wonka, the original movie. Uh Gene passed away in 2016. The show is not sampling Gene Wilder's dialogue from the film. It is using AI to recreate his voice introduces each stage of the competition to the contestants. And there's a presence of AI in Wilder, enhanced the experience of watching this show in any way. How are we feeling about this? I mean, if AI has no haters, I have parished. It is my nemesis. It is my enemy, especially the creative field. And while I support the stupidity of a reality show in which people lick wallpaper at one point, I have to condemn the use of Gene Wilder's voice in AI. That is that feels for boating that feels distasteful. It makes me have real feelings about something. I should not have feelings about this show, but here we are. Yeah. Get his voice out of your, whatever, computer. Is that how you-- Yeah, it is now, that's canon now. I don't know how to use it. I was going to say, like, his estate, Gene Wilder's estate, signed off on the use of Gene Wilder's voice, put through AI to be using this way. How is this sitting with you? And when you watch this and you hear Gene Wilder introduce the stages to the competition, how does that register with you? Right. I mean, the fact that they even feel the need to put in big letters on screen, like, we did ask the estate for this. This is OK. We're legally covered. It really says everything you need to know about the trepidation. They know the audience is rightfully feeling. Yeah. And I do think, legally, there may not be a distinction, but I certainly think personally in the eyes of people like you and me, there's a big difference between Gene Wilder's estate being OK with this and Gene Wilder, the person who had been deceased for over a decade, having knowledge of the use of his voice and likeness in this way. And I think that does not sit well with me. I really do think I would be able to have a little more, like, silly fun with this show if this device were not used. And I did not feel it was additive in any way versus-- there are many talented voice actors who I'm sure you could pay probably the equivalent amount of money that was sent to the estate to do a pretty good impression. And that human would be able to do things convincingly deliver jokes, which this computerized voice cannot. Yeah, you heard that three in 10. And there's a flat affect to the delivery that maybe it's just because we know it's computer-generated, but at least to me, that sends off that uncanny valley feeling of, like, this is not a person. And it really was not worth the violation, I think, to this man's memory. I'll put this to both of you just real quick. I think there's something to be said about why we do this show is it's partly to answer the question, how is the culture we consume changing us? How does it change the world of the week currently existing? So when I see a show like this in existence, when I see a show like Wonka's Golden Ticket, the first thought that I have is this is maybe just a battery-ality TV show. I didn't like just, you know, it's a one-off. And then there's the other feeling that I get, which is like, maybe this is something more sinister and maybe a harbinger or something that's gonna be a little bit worse. Where do you, where do you fall in this house? And is this just like a one-off gosh, someone made a bad call on making this show? Or does it signal to you a certain direction that we're heading towards that are like, I don't like any of this. - I think it sort of depends on the response, right? Like, I think the, if the audience rejects this, I think you could maybe write this off as a one-off experimentation using AI in terrible ways, but it doesn't work because it doesn't appeal to people. But if this does become like the next big hit of Netflix reality, then I do think that signals something disturbing both in the exploitation of IP, the era we've been in for a while over a decade now, but now we're crossing a new Rubicon, a new chocolate river, into the world of AI narrators. - We're crossing a new Rubicon, a new chocolate river. It is maybe the sentence of my nightmares. Antidon, I'm gonna give you the last word on this. The show is currently number two on Netflix. The two episode finale on the show drops on Wednesday, are you invested enough in the outcome of the show to go? You know what, let me see what happens. Let me see who the person who's gonna win the $3 million is. - Oh, absolutely not. No, I think that is the beauty of this. Like, there's no, I'm not invested in the show. It's more just like I'm watching somebody say participate in like the Olympics break dancing who has never break dance before. We were just like, what is happening? Who are these people? What are we doing this? Who's allowing this? All of those questions. And also, we know I don't watch the finale of things. It makes me, it makes me too anxious. I like to think things are going on forever. So in my mind, they are there indefinitely. Good night and good luck. - All right, Antidon, 10 years later, has never seen the finale of Mad Men. Just went, you know what, that show? Who knows what? - No, I know, I know this. I start crying about it right now. - Yeah, I just think the idea of like, we leave things as they are. They're perfect and they actually never ended, including Wonka's Golden ticket, which sounds like an absolute nightmare of a show. Thank you, both of you are coming on the show. I really appreciate this conversation. And I know now to not cross the chocolate Rubicon. I think that's an important thing for me to carry with me from this conversation. Thanks for your time, you guys. - Thank you. - Yeah, good to see you. Thank you so much. Antidon, he was a culture writer, based in Cambridge, Ontario. Alison Herman is a TV critic for Variety and Los Angeles. And if you must, the two episode series finale of Wonka's Golden ticket hits Netflix on Wednesday. - Hey, it's Danielle and Cali, your host of IN3, Canada's number one entertainment news podcast. I've spent more time with Taylor Swift than most other people were media pros. We hosted the Variety screening festies, how we has become the hottest Baxter boy. Said no one but you ever, ever. - And insiders who have seen it all, IRL. Oscar's Golden Globes, you name it. We have been there with access to the biggest talent. - Welcome to IN3 Patrick J. Adam. Adam. - The fun starts in three. - You know who's not gonna survive this? - Dad talk. - Oh, new episodes, Mondays and Thursdays. (laughing) - One of our regulars here on the show, Mark Anthony Neal, has got a new book out. It's called Save a Seat for Me. Notes on Black Fatherhood. And in that book, there's a whole chapter on how Black fathers are portrayed on television, characters like Mr. Huxable on the Cosby Show and Uncle Phil on the Fresh Prince of Malair. Mark, welcome back to the show. It's good to have you back on. - Hey, what's up, L.A.M.? - Nice to have you here. I'm excited to talk about some iconic Black dads. Let me just start by asking you, what made those Black TV dads important to include in your book about Black Fatherhood? - Because when I was coming out, I was born in 1965. I mean, the image is a fatherhood that I saw on television were white men, Mike Brady on the Brady bunch, Robert Young on Father Knows Best. I didn't only Black fathers ever saw were the Black fathers I knew in my life and my own Black father. And so when you begin to see those images on television in the early 1970s, Red Fox and Sanford and Son and then of course John Ames, you know, on good times, I paid a lot of attention to them when I was a kid. It was the first time I saw someone who looked anyway like my father, who acted in any way like my father that I saw them on television. - You mentioned John Ames, of course, playing James Evan Sr. on good times. Let's just hear a little clip of that right now. - What the hell you doing dealing with an employment agency? - I decided to take a job. - Yeah, well, I just undecided for you. So you got a full time job right here in this house. You ain't putting the time in nobody's kitchen. - James, I'm only trying to help you so you won't kill yourself. - I don't need no help. Now I'm the man in this house and I'll bring home the bacon. - Thelma, you and Michael say I got hypertension? Well, if I am hypertension, y'all gave it to me with this nickin' and nagging all the time. Hell, June is the only one in here that ain't buggin' me to death. - Yeah, that's for two reasons, Dad. One, because I respect you and two, because I fear for my life. (audience laughing) - Good times, of course, on absolutely groundbreaking sitcom and then what you heard there is the late John Ames, I'm playing Mr. James Evan Sr. This was the first black TV-dad cast in the first sitcom centered entirely on a black family. It's also a character that Esther Roll insisted on. She really fought for that character to be included in that series. Mark, for people who've not watched good times, like how would you describe that father, James Evan Sr. what was he like? - You know, the important thing about the show is that the writers were trying to make the claim that if you looked at a black father, they had the same kind of values around a family and family hood. You know, so the idea of the traditional man saying to his wife, you should not work outside the house. You know, most of the families that we saw white families on television, the mother's stay at home and took care of the family. And the father went out to work. Of course, the challenge here for this black family in Chicago in the 1970s is that they're poor. They ain't got no money, right? He actually needs his wife to help economically by being out there and getting the job. But at the same time, he's literally working himself to death. I mean, it's one of the arguments I make in the book that because black men are so tethered to this idea that the best way they can show up for their families is by making money and providing for them, you know, black men are literally working themselves to death. And of course, the irony of the series is that he works themselves to death. - You're a kid, you said when good times was on the air, talk to me about like what he was like to watch the show. And, you know, what do you remember feeling but this portrayal of black fatherhood? - I thought it was so important. And I thought it was so important to me, even as a ten-year-old, that when John Amos's character of James Evans Sr. is killed off, I quietly mourned his death, you know, as if it was the death of my own father. And it was kind of surreal. You know, there were civil rights organizations and other folks who protested the fact that the father had been killed off. As you mentioned earlier, Esther Rowe was adamant about the fact that they were going to tell a black family sitcom, drama, whatever, that you have to have a father figure. When Diane Carroll broke through with Julia in 1967 as the first black sitcom, her husband was dead. We had never really seen an actual black father on television or on a regular basis. So there was a bit of a kind of existential crisis when the character was killed off. - I remember, so when we were in preparation for this show, I went back and watched the clip where his death was announced. At that party, the reading the telegrams, and then you kind of just sort of see the expressions on everybody's faces as they were sort of reacting to that. And what I was trying to do is like put myself in your position when that episode airs, right? That episode of "Good Times" airs, and you get to everybody's having a good time. The family's about to make a move, right? And before they're about to make that move, they get this message ahead of time that the character had died. When that, you said you mourned in real life when that happened. Tell me about watching that episode unfold in real time. How much of a shock was it when that happened? You know, it was strange because I think so audiences knew it was going to happen. It was pretty public. The John A. was wasn't returning to the show. But in the context of thinking about this family, right? And of course, he dies on the crux of him getting a new job that would have taken the family out of the ghetto. And it was just another reminder that, you know, black folks don't catch a break. Yeah, yeah, it was, I think there's something really powerful about rewatching, revisiting that scene. But, you know, it wasn't long before we got other notable black TV dads. You mentioned Sanford and Sun, Deficence 227. But of course, the most iconic black dad in TV history was and continues to be Dr. Huckstable. Played by Bill Cosby on the Cosby Show. What do you make of, first of all, the idea that Mr. Huckstable, the character resonated so deeply, not just with black audiences, but with white audiences too. How do you think that is? It was a character that, at that particular time, and race, politics in the United States, was a reminder to some Americans that if you worked hard and you didn't have children out of wedlock, then if you did all the right things, went to college and studied hard, you can achieve the American dream. You know, the fact that the Cosby Show, the Cosby family, you know, they weren't an outlier in the fact that there weren't other actual black middle-class families, right? But who they were was not necessarily an option for everybody who was black or even white in American that period of time. You know, so it's particularly interesting that, you know, he gets read. He's not, he's not remembered as America's black father, right? He's remembered as America's father, right? Transcendent, all kinds of ideas of what fatherhood means. And it's also telling that Cosby, you know, the person was very deliberate in creating an image for Heathcliff Hoxtable that countered what he saw were Sam Boish stereotypes of black men who existed before, right? You know, he came up as a comedian in the 1960s. He had always been cognizant of the comedians, the blackface performers who came before him. He was cognizant of who a red fox was, you know, even as a stand-up comedian, right? His career was a counter to what a Richard Pryor or red fox represented. You know, we talk about that now in terms of a politics of black respectability, and that's what he represented for the American public at the time. I want to play you this moment from the Cosby Show. This is an exchange between Dr. Hoxtable and his son Theo, played, of course, by the late Malcolm Demel Warner. This is a bit of a longer clip, have a listen. Instead of acting disappointment, because I'm not like you. Maybe you can just accept who I am and love me anyway, because I'm your son. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. You know, when do you get deeds and everything? Now, you are afraid to try, because you're afraid that your brain is going to explode, and it's going to ooze out of your ears. Now, I'm telling you, you are going to try as hard as you can. And you're going to do it because I said so. I am your father. I brought you in this world, and I'll take you out. Mark, I think my dad used that line on me, to be honest with you. Where do you make of that exchange? My father said that to me at least 227 times. It is the most brilliant moment in the sitcom, and there were lots of brilliant moments, because what Cosby did to elevate Black colleges, and HBCUs, and Black culture, and Black artists. I mean, it was an important cultural work in that regard. But he challenged all the conventions of the American sitcom at that point in time. Because when Theo makes that a weekly speech, they were supposed to hug, and the music was supposed to play, and you go on to the next episode next week. And he introduced to America at that moment what Black parenting looks like. And I never forgot that as a kid. I never forgot that when I became a father. It is, in my mind, still the most important and brilliant moment in this series. I do think about that moment a lot, and I'll think about that very specific idea of that line becomes a repeated line. The pivot that is expected is, oh, Theo is bearing his soul to his father. His father is going to respond accordingly, and then going like, oh, but that didn't happen. Like as a black man with a black father, that was not the response that we are getting. But the scene does extend further to go like, okay, he does tell his son that he loves him, but one minute later. But that's not, you know, but it's not in response to that weepy little speech. Mark, obviously the conversation about the legacy of Dr. Huxble and the Cosby Show itself, that's been entirely shift. It has been entirely tarnished by the sexual assault allegations that Bill Cosby has faced over the years, over the decades I should say, culminating 2018 conviction on three charges of aggravated indecent assault. Do you think we'll ever see another black TV dad that resonates with audiences the way that Dr. Huxble did? Dr. Huxble came along in a particularly critical moment in American culture and American politics. It's the middle of the Reagan era. Ronald Reagan as president is dismantling many of the institutions and systems that were created to enhance opportunity for black folks. There is an emerging, you know, black underclass that is occurring at the same time the Cosby Show was on. And in many ways, the idea of Dr. Huxble and the Huxble family was used to bludgeon the black working class and the black working poor to make many of us feel as though then, you know, if we didn't succeed, it was our fault and not necessarily a process that was complicit with state politics and federal politics, they made it difficult for poor people, white, black, Latino, whatever to be able to achieve the middle class dream in the United States. The irony, of course, is that as he was used as kind of this moral bludgeon, right? You don't smoke, you don't do drugs, you don't drink alcohol, all your kids don't have kids, you know, your kids don't have kids out of wedlock. I mean, all those kind of things that weren't necessarily a part of the program, per se, but the idea of it was used in public policy in that regard, you know, the irony of who we find out who Bill Cosby actually is, you know, 30 years later, it just makes it terribly ironic. And in some ways, quite sad, you know, it's important to remember like the character of Theo, you know, who as a young black man who was the person that I was spiritually collected to in the show, right? But of course, he's based on Cosby Son Eddis, you know, who suffered with a learning disability. I mean, all those kind of learning challenges and all those kinds of things, there were so many opportunities. I think that Cosby could have better connected to the black community and chose not to, doing the show and even after the show. I mean, there's virtually no representation of the black porn, the black working class, you know, or a series, right? And he has no, had no responsibility to do that, but it might have been a very different show had we had those representations. I wanted to actually go to talk, start talking about Uncle Phil, but I want to hold just for a moment on that idea of of the show being a moral bludgeon because I don't think you start making that show in order to do that, but it does function that way. So it becomes, it begins to sort of function society as like, well, why isn't the black middle class this? Why isn't the black working class aspiring to be specifically this image? And how does that get created, do you think? You know, part of it is that it, you know, when the Cosby show, you know, it's the number one show in the US for five years, which is amazing in and of itself. Yeah. What as it's making that is sent to being this incredible power as a television show, a rival network, CBS does a documentary series called a disappearing black family, right? You know, which is really informed by very conservative views of social policy and the use of welfare. And you're holding these two things in your hand, right? You're looking at the success of the Cosby show. And then you're looking at a real life example, you know, there's a character in the documentary called Timothy McSeed. I always love this name, right? Who has, you know, nine kids with six different women, right? And so you look at Timothy McSeed, and then you see Bill Cosby and whose fault is Timothy McSeed, right? And the argument is that, well, there's all these things, these gifts, right, that we've given, you know, the black poor, the poor in this country that they don't take responsibility for their own lives, they're living on welfare and all these kinds of things. And I'm sure that was never Cosby's intent. And I'm not even sure how, how cognizant he was of the ways it was being utilized. But it's also very telling that when he gives his pound cake speech in 2005, you know, where he doubles down, right? On the failure of the black, on the failure of the black poor, he gets celebrated by the right. Yeah. That's right. And I'm sure that's nothing that he would ever, I mean, I'm sure he always thought of himself as kind of a liberal Democrat type, right? But, but, you know, in his older age, as he becomes more social conservative, you know, he's embraced by folks on the right. Yeah. And it doesn't even, to your point, it doesn't even have to be anything that he specifically said so much as it's the iconography. The iconography can already be co-opted into this project. Absolutely. One major black TV dad that comes to mind is, of course, Uncle Phil from the Fresh Principle Air, played by James Avery, like the Cosby Show. This is also a show about an upper middle class, upperly mobile black family. What do you think made the Fresh Prince's depiction of black fatherhood a little different from the thing that we got from the Cosby Show? - So let's be clear, right? The Cosby family are upper middle class. Uncle Phil was rich, you know? (laughing) Limited bell air and Donald Trump's down the block. They were rich family, right? - Yes, yes, yes. - And of course, it's a rich man poor man tell, right? The poor kid comes from Philadelphia to live with his rich uncle. And I think one of the things that was important, you know, you see residences of Cosby and Uncle Phil, right? In Uncle Phil, the late actor who played and was a gifted, you know, physical comedian. But you see him going from seeing this problematic nephew of his, right, who might have been involved as some criminal activity back in Philadelphia to embrace him and it's important because it expands the idea of who can be a father, right? It's about who father figures are. And the critical scene, you know, where he embraces him when Will's father, you know, decides that, well, you know, I really don't have the time for you now, it's important, right? Because it's a reminder that fatherhood shows up in all kinds of ways and you are an adult male and you are in the orbit of someone who needs a father figure that it's also important for you to show up. - I, I'm glad that you brought up that scene because that scene is just one of the most iconic moments of that show. We have a clip of that. Let's just play it right now. - Die with him! - I need him then and I'll need him now. - Will. - Now, you know what Uncle Phil? I'm gonna get through college without him. I'm gonna get a great job without him. I'm gonna marry me a beautiful honey and I'm having a whole bunch of kids. I'm gonna be a better father than he ever was and I sure as hell don't need him for that 'cause ain't a damn thing. He could ever teach me about how to love my kids. How come you don't want me, man? The moment that breaks me from that scene every time is the moment where Uncle Phil takes the hat off Will Smith so he can continue sobbing, right? Will Smith is in the middle of sobbing because in this particular moment his dad had canceled the summer road trip. He was supposed to take with him. I need not have got a chance to see him and Will Smith does such a beautiful job breaking down and Uncle Phil takes him into that embrace and then he gently removes what he kind of firmly removes his hat off of him so he can hold him even closer. That scene gets shared all the time, Mark. What do you think, why do you think this scene has such a staying power? - First of all, it's the best acting of Will Smith's career. That's not a like statement, you know? That's not, you know, but yes. Yeah. You know, when Will talks about why doesn't he want me and it's a reminder, you know, if you're a black father, you've reminded over and over again that you have to show up, but the way in which we show up is often in terms of what we do outside of the home to make sure that the home remains solid, right? We spend so much time outside the home working. We don't spend a lot of time at home. What Will's comments are reminding us is that, you know, it's not just we need fathers to show up physically. We need for fathers to show up emotionally, right? What Will is desiring in that moment from his father. They'll be great to be able to road with my dad, right? But to have that emotional connection with my dad is what really mattered to him at that moment. And I think we forget, particularly with black boys, but boys in general, we forget that boys need that emotional connection from their fathers, right? And we forget for fathers to remind them to make a space for that because it's not just about making sure that folks are fed and they got a nice hole where there's heat and electricity, all those things that are important, right? But they need, you know, our children need more from us than that. Yeah, it's about, you know, there's a real inheritance that happens and there's like, you inherit an idea of what father is supposed to be like. And in that moment, there's a break. There's a break with that inheritance where you go, all the way, I have to find another gear. You have to find another gear because like, that actually is not nearly enough. And I will say that like, we've had a lot more recent portrayals of black fatherhood on TV. I'm thinking of yours, Sterling K. Brown. And this is us, Donald Glover, of course, in Atlanta. But we've gotten now over, you know, half a century of black TV dads. Who would you say have been your favorite black TV dads in mind? Well, you mentioned Sterling K. Brown's character. And I loved, you know, his character because it was really the first adult black man that I'd had ever seen on television in therapy. Yeah, and part of what I'm writing through in this book is my own journey to therapy to become a better father. So I love that. But one of the characters that I didn't get to write about Ralph Angel Bordelone from Queen Sugar, you know, who incarcerated all kinds of drama with his baby mama. And he's raising this son named Blue. And, you know, Blue is no divergent. He's playing with a white doll. And it transforms Ralph Angel in terms of how he has to deal with fatherhood. It's, we get to see a second act to fatherhood, right? Someone who had failed as a father, right? Who gets a chance to do it again and to learn from it and takes direction. Not from all the ideas of how black minister pose to show up and how a black father is supposed to show up. What black masculinity is supposed to be? He takes the cues from his son. Yeah. About how to be a better father for him. And it's a show I wish they had just gotten much more attention, generally speaking. But I always love that performance by Kofi. I appreciate you pointing out the idea of the Sterling K. Brown's character was the first black father you saw who was in therapy. Well, anything else that's missing from the portrayals of black fatherhood on TV right now, you think? I think we've gotten much better at it. You know, I think about Atlanta and Erne. And we typically don't lead with thinking about him being a father, right? But he is, right? And it would have been interesting to see had the show going on. You know, what kind of father he eventually would call me? Yes. That would have been really fascinating to see, for sure. Mark, I really appreciate your time. This has been really wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. Thank you. Yeah, of course. Always. Thank you. Good to have you on. Mark Anthony Neal, James B. Duke Distinguished Professor of African and African American Studies at Duke University. That new book from him, "Save a seat for me." Notes on black fatherhood is out. Now, my name is Aluminum Abdul-Mahmud. This show is called "Comotion." We'll be back tomorrow. We'll see you then. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca/podcasts.