‘Wonder Man’ star Yahya Abdul-Mateen II on cancellation and confidence

This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Moseley, and my guest today is Yahya Abdul-Mateen II. He's nominated for an Emmy for the Marvel series Wonder Man. He plays Simon Williams, a struggling actor with a secret. He has real superpowers, and if anyone finds out, he doesn't just lose his career, he loses his freedom. Abdul-Mateen grew up in both New Orleans and Oakland, studied architecture at UC Berkeley, and worked as a city planner until a layoff sent him to the Yale School of Drama. He booked his first major role in 2015, nearing 30, and since then he's performed on Broadway and Top Dog, Underdog, been cast as Black Manta in Aquaman, Bobby Seale in The Trial of the Chicago 7, the lead in Candyman, and won an Emmy for playing Dr. Manhattan in HBO's Watchmen. Wonder Man made him the lead in his very own Marvel series, and then, two weeks after his Emmy nomination, Disney canceled the show a few months after a second season had already been announced. And Yahya Abdul-Mateen II, welcome to Fresh Air. What's up? What's up? What's up? Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Why are you laughing? You know, I don't really reflect back so far, that far. You know, when first you say my name, and then you go through and you tell the story, and then when you end it off, you say, and he just lost his job. And now he's sitting in front of me, and he just lost his job. And I just thought that that was so, it's so funny the way that I'm being talked about right now. But you know, I mean, there's so much to talk about. The thing about it is, when Marvel approached you, you said, I only have one Marvel dollar to spend. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You asked yourself whether Wonder Man was the actual role that you were going to spend that dollar. I'm really curious. I thought that was a really interesting way to talk about entering the Marvel universe and being a part of something that's so big. How are you reflecting on it now that you have spent that dollar, and you've gone through this journey on this show that is highly respected? Yeah, so far, dollar well spent, for sure. Look at the experience that I had, you know, and I got to put it out. Now, when I said that, I was talking about fun and longevity. You know, I was talking specifically, against a one-off. A role that is going to stand the test of time and not be a one-off. And at the same time, something that was worth my time and something that I enjoyed. That's what a dollar well spent would be. Now, when I flash to present day, and I do reflect back, boy, of course it was a dollar well spent. You know, I got to make a fantastic show, and I got to play a fantastic character who, many people related to. Wonder Man is not a typical Marvel story. There's almost no action. It's a comedy, and it's a comedy about auditioning, shot like an indie film. And the hero's battles are with casting directors and in his own head. Your character, Simon Williams, he's a working actor in Los Angeles. Years in, without a break, when a reclusive director announces a remake, of this cheesy 80s superhero. And Simon goes after the lead. And I actually want to play a clip to set up so folks can know what we're talking about if they haven't seen it. And in this scene, he's at his audition for Wonder Man, reading his lines. Let's listen. Simon Williams, reading for Wonder Man. Yeah. I've been to the void. I lived in that screaming silence. I know what it's like. I lost whatever part was left in me that makes a person a person. Until Barnaby pulled me out. No one else ever gave a damn. No one. It's too late for me. But you can still walk away. I'm asking you, nicely. Just walk away. That's my guest, Yahya Abdul-Mateen II as Simon in Wonder Man. And Yahya, Simon is an over-preparer. He is always in his head. But he gives this performance in his audition that just blows them away. And I've heard you say that you kind of are the opposite when you're stepping into a role. You get the script, you get the lines down, but you step into that, and then you get to the end. And then you allow yourself to surrender to the actual role. But was there a particular moment where you learned to do that when you realized that you could know material really deeply, and then there comes a point where you just have to let all that go? Yes. And the secret is that you have to prepare in order to let all that go. So I prepare more than Simon. Oh, you do? Yeah. He's an over-preparer, but you're an over-over. Well, Simon is an over-thinker. You know, Simon is looking for the traps. I'm looking for the opportunities. So I'm different from Simon in that way. So I prepare. And that's the trick. So I do the homework, and then I'm not afraid to let go of the homework. The homework is there to support me, not to decide what it is that I'm going to do. Often when we're acting, we're acting with other people and other factors that we're not aware of. So I'm not afraid to let go of the that we're not aware of when we're doing our rehearsal process. So I like to walk the, do the tightrope dance. That's what it feels like when I am putting myself out there with these words and with my character's intentions. And when I legitimately don't know what's going to happen, it's more fun for me that way. It's more exciting. Have you ever wanted a role as bad as Simon wanted Wonder Man? Oh, let me think. There has to be a yes. Yeah. There has to be a yes in there somewhere. I wanted to play Booth, the character that I played in the play called Top Dog, Underdog. I've been wanting to do that for 20 years before I got a chance to do it, but I never did pursue it. So I don't know if I've wanted anything. I can't think of anything that I've pursued in the same way that Simon pursued Wonder Man, because he was doing some crazy things for a job. But actors, man, actors, we do all type of things. I was telling stories. I was lying on my resume, talking about telling stories. I was lying on my resume, you know, back in 2012, talking about all the different skills and accents I could do and things like that. Oh, when you first graduated from acting school? No, no, no. I hadn't gone to school yet. This was when I was just getting little jobs in the Bay Area, little acting jobs. And I was over-exaggerating. I had maybe played the bongos two times and said, yeah, I could do that. So I put it on my resume. I may have done an accent in class one time. So I said, you know, that wasn't too hard. I put that on my resume, you know. But that's what you got to do. You got to, you know, stack the cards in your favor. What gave you the gall to do it, you know? I didn't know no better. And it was just too much empty space on my resume. So I needed to figure out, I needed to find things that I could do so I could write them down. I think what gave me the gall, the gall to do it was to write them down. And I think that's what gave me the gall to write them down. And I think that's what gave me the gall to do it was to write them down. And I think that's what gave me the empty space. That's what gave me the gall. Season one ends with us expecting to now see what Simon is going to be like now that he has all the things that he has been fighting and working toward. He is Wonder Man. And they point to a pattern of Marvel involving black-led projects. There's Wonder Man canceled despite your nomination for Emmy, Blade, Dead After Seven Years, Ironheart, Armor Wars. It's just a whole bunch. And the argument is that Marvel is going to be the one that's going to be the one that's going to be the Marvel doesn't protect its black-led projects. You kind of have rejected that. How do you see it? It's not that I've rejected that. I make the observation based off my experience. When you look at the history of those projects and when you put them all together, there's no way around it. It does not look good. It does not look like good business. And it looks like it's certainly not favorable to its black creatives. That's what it looks like. So I'd be ignorant if I didn't, if I'd be, you know, willfully blind if I chose not to make that observation. I'm always interested in the truth. And I'm always interested in what is true for me. And what is true for me is that in the case of Wonder Man, I actually don't know. I don't know what happened. What did they tell you? I've heard things about viewership. What I would say is that if that is the case, then when it comes to Black-led projects, especially Black-led niche projects, I think they need a little bit more time to cook. Because I think Black audiences usually find out and gravitate to the niche projects a little bit slower. They're a little bit behind because they're not always, that's not what's always marketed to us. And I think that it was one of those projects that needed a bit more time to cook if it was going to depend on the Black audience to also give some buoyancy to the numbers of that show. Nevertheless, I will circle back and always come back to the point that I'm so thankful and blessed to have been able to be a part of something that was special, that is special. I'm getting so much love out there. And the reason why I think I'm getting so much love is because people are, yes, they are. They do feel for me. But what's actually going on is that they love that show. You know, people really enjoy that show. And I know what it's like to have one of my favorite shows be canceled or for it to finally end. You got to find a way to fill that slot, to fill that void. So I think it's a sign that, you know, our show gave a lot of people a lot of, you know, joy and relief and some distraction, you know, in this world. And I do hope that I get another chance to step back into that Wonder Man character. Yeah. What were you looking forward to for season two? Because it's a slow burn that towards the latter half of the first season, now we're along for the ride for him. It ended expecting there to be season two. You know, Simon was just getting used to fame, you know, and a little bit of notoriety and what he could do with it. You know, we followed Simon when he had this dream. And we saw him finally get a little bit of fame. And we saw him have a little taste of what he was after. I was always curious and I am curious about what a character like Simon would do with it once he finally gets it. We saw the first thing that he did. The first thing that he did, he went and did something, you know, noble. He went to go stand up for his friend. Okay, cool. Now that you've done that, what are you going to do with it next, you know, because we saw him be egotistical a bit. We saw him be self-centered and things like that. You know, those things just aren't cured. Those things don't go away. Neither does the nerves and the anxiety. And, you know, so there's a whole another chapter of Simon finally getting what he asked for and then learning how to deal with it, you know. You grew up between New Orleans and the Bay and somehow you went to 13 different schools. I think so. I think it tracks like that. Yeah, that's like changing schools every few years. Why did your family move so much? Always looking for a better life. Always looking for a better school. You know, there was six of us. So a lot of that sometimes was about trying to find whatever was convenient for my parents and like the best fit for our education and things like that. Was there ever a moment when you got tired of it? No, I didn't even notice it. You didn't? No, no. No. Because there was so much love in my home, you know, so whatever now could be perceived as some type of instability or anything like that, I was we were shielded from that, you know, and my parents did a fantastic, fantastic job. And like I say, when we went to different schools, we were looking for a better education. How do you think that experience shaped who you are being the new person all the time? Yeah, I mean, I think that it's made me. More observant. I enter into new environment, sort of quiet, you know, looking around and sort of calculating and doing the doing the math on my surroundings. And then after a little bit, after a little while, you know, I take up a little bit more space. Now, when I went to high school, I went to one high school. And so high school was my first time entering into a space with the same students. And we're basically entering to entering into a school just sort of on the same level as everybody else. So high school was really where I sort of socially blossomed. Like in the ninth grade, I sort of gained my confidence. But what I did have. By the ninth grade was my individuality. You know, I was myself. What does that mean? What did that look like? Well, I wasn't a follower, you know. I had my high school reunion in the Bay. In the Bay. Yeah. In Oakland. I think it was the last year or the year before. And I was at lunch with my best friend from high school and then with another one of my friends also from high school. And he said, yeah, yeah, man, you he said you was different. I said, what? He said, yeah, man, you know, your dad would drop you off on a motorcycle. And, you know, you were just you were just different. Different. And when I think back, I was like, you know, I think, wow, you know, I guess I was. But I was always myself. You even called yourself the weird one. When did I do that? Yeah. There was an interview where you said I was a little weird. I was nerdy, but I also played sports. And yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know why I use that word, but I was I was I was different. But, you know, but I but I but I like myself. You know. I mean, whatever it was about me that made me different. I didn't know it. I didn't know that I was different. That's the thing. And I like myself. Everybody's different. You know, I was confident enough to I didn't have the cool shoes that didn't even feel like it fit my personality. You know, I remember one time I wore I got some Jordans. It was the first time I had like the cool shoes and I wore them to school. And a friend of mine, man, he didn't let me rest. He was like, oh, yeah, yeah, you know, pointing at me because I got I got the new cool shoes on. And I was a little bit embarrassed. But, you know, but I was always confident in who I was. That's funny to be embarrassed, right? By by wearing the latest. Yeah, yeah, yeah. By wearing it because I wasn't that kid. So it's sort of, you know, it was as if I was trying on cool for the first time. People called your family the Black Brady Bunch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You were the youngest, the youngest of the six. The youngest, yeah. We had a mom, dad, the dogs, the station wagon. And what I like to say is we didn't have the, you know, the white picket fence. We had the chain link fence. But, you know, it was ours. You talked about having a stutter. Yeah, I stutter. Growing up. Even even to this day, I stutter. How intense is it? It can be intense if I if I let myself get comfortable. You know, right now my brain is on. So I'm calm. I'm conscious to take my time and things like that. But if I wasn't worried about taking taking my time, then you would be able to tell. Oh, he stutters. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So are there particular words? Our words sometimes tend to get me. It just depends. But say I have this thing, right? I have two streams of consciousness going on basically all the time. And I can feel a stutter on its way. And when I know when I'm about to stutter, then I switch over to the second stream of consciousness. And I go I go around the stutter and then I keep on going. When I'm at home and I don't feel like doing that, I just stay on my single stream of consciousness and I just stutter. I just let the stutter go and I just get through it. Has it always been that way for you? I think so. Yeah. Architecture was your major at UC Berkeley. And you've talked about how you took drama classes to help you overcome your stutter. Yeah. So that you could do your presentations. Yeah, that didn't work. It didn't. It didn't work at all. But I found, you know, acting and I didn't stutter when I acted. I never stuttered with a script ever. What do you think it is about the drama and the drama class that really allowed you to be in that space? I rehearsed the words. So it's just really all muscle memory. I know you don't know any different, but it sounds like it's a lot of work. It's is it exhausting having the two? I mean, we all have double consciousness to a certain extent. Is that exhausting? Yeah. It's a little bit of work, but, you know, it helps me to articulate myself better. Yeah. And things like that. One needs to care. You know what I mean? You know, who knows? I do what works for me right now. It helps me to communicate better. You know, I don't want to be on TV and on my interviews just stuttering all over the place and making a mess. You know? But it's also kind of amazing. Because I've heard other actors who have also, I think, James Earl Jones has talked about he had a stutter. Yeah, but stuttering is frustrating. For example, if I were to stutter right now, sometimes you just wouldn't be able to hear anything. I just wouldn't be able to say the word. You may have radio silence for about eight seconds and I'm not even making sounds. Other times I sound like the car engine trying to start. And that's when I'm being stubborn and just trying to push it through. You know, and I don't forget. feel like taking my time. I don't feel like going to my alternate words. You know, it's just what I know. Our guest today is actor Yahya Abdul-Mateen II. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley, and my guest today is Yahya Abdul-Mateen II. He's nominated for an Emmy for his lead role in Wonder Man, a Marvel comedy about a struggling actor who's hiding the secret that he has real superpowers. Abdul-Mateen II grew up between New Orleans and Oakland, the youngest of six, studied architecture at UC Berkeley, and worked as a city planner in San Francisco until a layoff sent him to the Yale School of Drama. Since then, he starred in several television productions, which include starring as Black Manta in Aquaman and Bobby Seale in The Trial of the Chicago 7. He won an Emmy for playing Dr. Manhattan in HBO's Watchmen, and earned a Tony nomination for his Broadway debut in Top Dog Underdog. This year, he also starred in and served as executive producer of Netflix's Man on Fire, stepping into the role of John Creasy, a part Denzel Washington made iconic. Your father was born John Ford, but changed his name to Yahya Abdul-Mateen when he converted to Islam. What does your name mean? John. Just like my father, it means John. So Yahya is the prophet John, and Abdul-Mateen is a servant of a firm God. Your dad was Muslim, but your mom was Christian. Is Christian. Yeah, she is Christian. How did that play out in your house growing up? We knew God. We were introduced to God in two different ways. Sometimes we go to the masjid, sometimes we fast for Ramadan. We would pray with my father five times a day. And other times we go to the church and we sing in the choir and we had our own little children's choir at home and things like that. What it did for me was it gave me a reverence for God and an appreciation for God and a know-how to get to Him in my life, you know, because I had parents that gave me that example of respecting God. And that's what that did for me. Yeah. You were a young man. Just stepping out in the world when your father passed away. Yeah, I was 21. I was in college. How did that change or impact at all your thoughts about your future, your trajectory? Boy, how much time you got. I always felt like I had everything I needed. I had a great relationship, you know, with my father and that I was blessed to have had a father in my life. It wasn't until later on in life, you know, in my mid and late thirties that I realized, oh, I lost my father when I was very young. You know, as I see other 21-year-olds and 25-year-olds, 27-year-olds, and I understand the importance of having a father and I see where I lost my father, then there was sort of a secondary grieving process because, you know, as a man, I'm going through different things and I was like, boy, I would really like to talk to my father, you know, right now. And so, but I am still very, very, very blessed to have been given a great father whose lessons are not far off. And so, you know, I'm still very, very, very blessed to have him. And so, I'm still very, very blessed to have him. My mother, when I was doing plays, she was inspired to do plays out in the Bay Area. She did The Wiz. She did a play of The Wiz. She was inspired by you. Yeah, she was inspired. Well, I was probably growing up inspired by her. And then she was later on a turn inspired by me. My mother is the character in the household. I'm not the character in the household at all. Is it true that your dream since you were a child was to be a city planner? Was being an architect. To be an architect. Yeah, I wanted to be an architect. That's why I went to college to study it. Yeah. Was it in the back of your mind during that time period acting as well? No, acting, I didn't even know that that was possible. I never even thought about that. Somebody, I'll keep the story short, but a teammate of mine, you know, dared me, dared me to take an acting class. What type of teammate? I was on the track team at Berkeley. Yeah. And one day we were at practice, you know, making fun of the coaches and things like that on the team building exercise. And I got up in front of everybody and did an impersonation. Everybody was laughing. The next day, they were still talking about it. And my teammate, he dared me to take a theater class. I was looking for an easy class to take. And I auditioned and took the class. Didn't take it seriously in the sense that I did all the work, but I used to be late to class and, you know, things like that. I wasn't the best representation of what a top student should be. But I always knew my lines. I rehearsed for real. I don't know how present I was. But when it was my turn to work, I always, put in the work and always took the work seriously. I didn't take the attendance the most seriously. And after that semester, the teacher, she, she told me, actually, I just ran into her in the building one day and she said, hey, she said, you're really good. And, you know, I hope you take, I hope you take some more classes. And I wasn't necessarily intending to, you know, but I was like, oh, I didn't know that. Maybe, maybe I will. So the next class that I took, I found something that I thought would be a good opportunity to work on my stutter. And then that just put me, brought me deeper into the, into this world. You're deep in this world, but you still, you graduate with an architecture degree and you work for the city of San Francisco as in the city planning department. Yeah. The mayor's office of housing. Yeah. What was your job? I was a program coordinator for a project called the S.L. S.F. Hope Initiative. I believe it's been almost 15 years now. And you still remember that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The, the Youth S.F. Leadership Academy. Youth S.F. Leadership Academy. I think that's what it was called. But I was a program coordinator. My job was to, was to pair young people with architects and with city planners in six of the housing projects in San Francisco that were undergoing a redevelopment process. And so I was teaching, well, facility planning, facilitating a program that taught architecture and city planning curriculum to the young people so that they could work with the planners to give educated feedback on what they wanted in their neighborhoods. Were you enjoying the job? Absolutely. You got laid off though. Yeah. It was like 11 months. 11 months later, you get laid off. I keep on losing, I keep on getting laid off and losing, and losing jobs. What up with that? What up with that? But you know, every time I do, it turns into something better. So I wonder what this one's going to turn into. You got a whole slew of projects. So you just, so you get laid off and you give yourself three years to become an actor or you'd go back to study. Yeah, I would go back. I was going to go get my master's in, in, in, in planning and probably work in politics. You decided to go to grad school for it. You ended up at Yale School of Drama. That is a prestigious acting school. It's one of the best in the, in the world. It's for serious actors. When you went there, did you have a specific dream of the type of actor that you wanted to be? Not necessarily. Not necessarily. I just wanted training. I knew that actors from that school were working on Broadway. That was really, because by then all the acting I had done was in theater. So I was like, well, okay, well, what's the, how far can you go in theater? Well, you can go to Broadway. So, you know, I was hoping to get enough training to go and do Broadway and then you'll see what happened, happens next. Yeah. Let's take a short break. My guest is Yahya Abdul-Mateen II. He's nominated for an Emmy for his lead role in the Marvel series, Wonder Man, a Marvel comedy about a struggling actor hiding real superpowers. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air. And today I am talking with Yahya Abdul-Mateen II. He's nominated for an Emmy for playing Simon Williams in Wonder Man, a Marvel comedy about a struggling actor hiding real superpowers. You've been inside some pretty complex and dynamic stories that, that allow us to self-reflect. I'm thinking about The Watchmen, which it's a 2019 HBO series that you won an Emmy for. Congratulations. And it's set in a world where superheroes are real and you played what seemed like the most ordinary person in it. Cal, who was a stay-at-home husband married to a detective played by Regina King. Yeah. And then comes the twist that Cal is actually secretly Dr. Manhattan. Yeah. The one true super being in the world, a blue God-like man who experiences past, present, and future all at once. And I want to play a scene, a really powerful one, where you use that power to give your wife something impossible, a conversation with the grandfather she never got to meet, played by Louis Gossett Jr. Oh, that's cold. Let's listen. That's cold. Aren't you supposed to be blue? I recently made some changes in my life. I'm about to make a few more, which is why I wanted to speak with you. Mr. Reeves, our lives have become entangled in a most profound way through someone known to both of us. But the future is uncertain, and my ability to influence events is limited. In order to ensure an optimal outcome, I would like to form an alliance. You want to team up with me? You are Hooded Justice, a hero. Ah, that's what this is all about. Want me to put on a mask, huh? No. This is about Angela. Angela? Your granddaughter. I don't have a granddaughter. But you had a son. He had a daughter, which makes her your granddaughter. Oh, that's how it works out, huh? I met her in Vietnam. We are in love. Soon, we will marry and move to Tulsa, where she'll be a police officer. Why the hell does she want to go to Tulsa? I'm not sure she knows yet. But I suspect it's because she senses it is where she comes from. What the hell do you want with me? Nothing. But Angela does. She wants your help. She doesn't even know I exist. That is because you choose to let her be ignorant to your existence. She doesn't want me in her life. She does. I know the moment I first see her, I sense profound emptiness and loss. I know because she says over and over again that she doesn't want a family, yet it is clear through her actions that it is all that she wants. That was my guest, Yaya. Abdul Mateen II with Louis Gossett Jr. and Watchmen. I have a question I want to ask you about it, but I'm also very curious about your reaction to it. You turned really reflective listening to that piece. Yeah, I haven't watched it. Yeah. You've never watched it, or you haven't? Maybe I've watched it once, I think, so I don't remember it. So now, when I'm listening to it, I'm remembering it. And I'm remembering, oh, that was a really good show. And I'm also proud of it. Him? I don't think it's myself. I'm not proud of myself, but I'm proud of the work that that young man did to make some of those choices and to stick with that in that performance. Your old self. You're thinking about yourself as a younger person. I'm thinking about myself when I was younger, as a younger person, in the preparation for that, because the risk was to. I could have been very. Well, that's the thing about it, Yaya. Part of it is because he is holding the past, the present, and the future at once. So there is no emotional core there. You had to play that. You had to strip something from yourself in order to play that. Do you remember that conscious choice that you made? The gift was that he could experience it all at the same time. But the curse that comes with that is that he understands how small each moment is in comparison to the grand scheme. So he's everywhere at the same time. So he's not able to be in the moment. And sometimes in the moment is where some of the most beautiful things happen. And so he doesn't get to feel the individual moment. Is it true that when you took the role of Cal, you didn't even know who you'd really be playing? No, I didn't. I stepped out on faith. I sort of said, trust me, it'll be worth it. Tell me how you found out about it. People started to whisper on set. We were well into shooting. And Dr. Manhattan hadn't shown up, but there was like, he has to show up at some point. Who is it? I think it's him. I don't think it's me, because I don't, why would it be me? I'm, I'm, I'm. Because just for folks who haven't watched the show, you're playing, you're playing Cal, your husband, just this normal guy. That's what I signed up to be in this show. I've signed up to play Regina King's husband. Mm-hmm. And eventually I get pulled into the office out here in LA. Damon Lindelof, he wanted to have a meeting and he let me know that I was Dr. Manhattan. And I said, okay, I should have asked for more money. That was your reaction, huh? Of course, that was my reaction. You know, I said, okay, well, I've really got to get in shape. And then I said, I should have asked for more money. That was my more humorous side. I wasn't so serious about that. Many of your roles, like Man on Fire, they're reprisals. They're previous roles. They're mostly played by iconic actors like Denzel Washington. How do you get to a place where you hold your own, where you let all the noise of what people expect? It's the same with Marvel characters. Yeah. There's so much expectation on these characters because people live with them for years and years to drown out that stuff and say, I'm going to make this my own. Well, the cool thing about having a solid upbringing and going to 13 different schools is that I get a lot of time to develop my. My own sense of self. And I really meant that earlier when I said I like who I am. That's enough for me. So if I can find something interesting to do, who cares what anybody else thinks? I like myself. I like my work in a healthy way. And that gives me enough confidence to go and pursue what it is that excites me with the opportunities that I say yes to, the opportunities that are in front of me. That allows me to get the ghosts of the past out of the room and to do what it is I have to do. That's interesting to put it that way, the ghosts in the room. Is there a way that you center yourself? Do you not watch the previous ones? No, I watch. I watch because it's nice to know what the fans love. So if I can give the fans a sense of something that they are tuning in for, then good. I just like to do it in my way. I don't want to do it. They don't want an invitation. They want what they know. But it's my job, since I'm not Denzel Washington, I make it my job to know what it is that they liked about that performance. Oh, okay, well, you like. One, you like him, and so that's. I'm never going to do that. But what else do you like? What do you like about him? Well, you like his soul. You like the gravitas and the soul. Okay, well, are there opportunities for me to imbue this character with some gravitas and with a sense of soul? Authentic to me. If there's a yes, then I build that bridge, and that becomes one of the bridges between myself and the audience. You weren't able to go to the Emmy where you won the award for The Watchmen because it was during the pandemic, but you'll be able to go to the Emmys this time around for. Oh, yeah, I'll be in the building. for The Wonder Men. What are you most excited about? Just seeing it, if I'm being honest. After I won, I did wish that I was there, if I'm being honest. And so now I'll get to go, and I'll know what it's like to be there, and that'll be cool. And if I meet Steve Carell, then that'll be real dope. For real? What is it about Steve? Oh, I grew up watching The Office. I've watched every episode so many times. I know every single episode of The Office, every single episode of The Office. I used to be screaming at the top of my lungs watching The Office, so I'm not going to sit up here and act like I'm way too cool for school and things like that to not ask for a picture and to not see what he look like. I'm not going to sit up here and act like I'm way too cool for school and things like that to not ask for a picture and to not see what he look like. No, I won't be weird, and I won't fan out, but I would love to meet Steve Carell to say what's up. Well, I'll be looking at your Instagram to see if you got that picture. To see if I get a chance, right, yeah. Yaya Abdul-Mateen II, this has been such a pleasure. It has been. Thank you very much. Yaya Abdul-Mateen II. He's nominated for an Emmy for the Marvel series Wonder Man, and his new film, By Any Means, is in theaters September 4th. Coming up, film critic Justin Chang. The new film, Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma. This is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air. In the new movie, Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma, Hannah Einbinder plays a young queer director who's trying to reboot a popular series of slasher movies from the 80s and 90s. The film also stars Gillian Anderson. Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma is now playing in theaters, and our film critic Justin Chang has this review. The 39-year-old director, Jane Schonbrunn, has a wild imagination, but a consistent theme. They're fascinated by the media obsessions that shaped some of us as young people, perhaps even offering us a sense of refuge and belonging that the outside world could not. Schonbrunn's 2021 debut, We're All Going to the World's Fair, was an eerie experimental horror film about a teenager caught up in an online role-playing game. Then came the 2024 drama, I Saw the TV Glow, about two teens bonding over a Buffy-style TV series, which Schonbrunn, a transgender filmmaker, turned into a stealthy commentary on trans experience. Now we have Schonbrunn's third feature, Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma. It draws its title from a fictional slasher movie called Camp Miasma, which was a big hit sometime in the 1980s, and like Friday the 13th, A Nightmare on Elm Street, Elm Street, and countless other horror touchstones of its era. has spawned an increasingly rudderless series of sequels. Schoenbrunn recaps the history of the Camp Miasma franchise in a dazzlingly witty opening credits sequence that I want to watch again slowly, one frame at a time. It's the work of an artist who knows how to spoof and embrace pop cultural phenomena in astoundingly meticulous detail. Hannah Einbinder, from the comedy series Hacks, stars as Chris Williams, a 29-year-old independent filmmaker who's writing and directing a Camp Miasma reboot. She's hoping to persuade Billy Presley, who starred in the original movie, to reprise her role in the new one. Billy is something of a recluse. She lives in the Pacific Northwest, in a remote lakeside cabin on the very grounds where Camp Miasma was shot. In this scene, Chris is in a nearby cinema, watching a scene from that first film, when Billy, played by Gillian Anderson with a southern accent and a fabulous aura of old Hollywood glamour, approaches her in the theater. I feel like there's about to be a jump scare. Hi. Hi. I'm Billy Presley. You must be the writer-director. Yeah, hi. You came out of nowhere. I didn't know you were in here. I'm sorry. I saw you and I wanted to scare you. It's only fair, right? You've already seen me. Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma is frequently funny as a satire of contemporary filmmaking. Sean Brunn takes knowing aim at the industry's obsession with sequels, reboots, and origin stories, its overuse of trauma as a horror trope, and its often performative approach to inclusion and social justice. The original Camp Miasma, which featured a gender-fluid killer laying waste to a summer camp, has since been accused of transphobia, a criticism that Chris, who approaches cinema through a queer academic lens, wants to correct in her own project. More than once, though, the older, worldlier Billy tells Chris to stop over-intellectualizing everything, noting that, in the movies, we respond to sex and horror on a pure, visceral level. True to its title, Teenage Sex and Death is fascinated by the connections between what excites us and what scares us. It's no surprise when Chris and Billy begin to explore their own growing feelings for each other. Their sex scenes are played for some wry humor. Anderson has been an LGBTQ plus icon for decades, since her days on The X-Files. But there's also a genuine warmth and tenderness here that builds on the actor's natural chemistry. Both characters, it turns out, have had their own physical and psychological hang-ups about sex, and the movie's most bracing element is the way it lets them confront those issues together. In Chris's case, that means exploring the voyeuristic and violent fantasies that drew her to the Camp Miasma movies in the first place. There's a sly paradox at play here that I think more than a few horror aficionados will relate to. A boudoir slathered in blood. A boudoir slathered in blood can suddenly become the safest of spaces. Schoenbrunn is a madly ambitious talent, deconstructing the nature of genre one moment and channeling an uneasy Lynchian mood the next. At times, they run the risk of stretching the film's many, many ideas past the point of redundancy. And there's one set piece, a killing spree from Camp Miasma, ironically set to a hit 90s song, that for many will be the movie's gory highlight. Though I checked out of it pretty early on. Perhaps I was impatient to get back to Chris and Billy, two characters that Schoenbrunn and the actors clearly love to pieces. It's the highest compliment I can pay Einbinder and Anderson, that somewhere out there, their performances are already captivating a new generation of pop culture obsessives. Justin Chang is a film critic at The New Yorker. He reviewed Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma. If you'd like to catch up on interviews you've missed, like our conversation with Professor Daniel Lieberman about what evolution reveals about dieting and weight loss, or with actor Jason Segel about playing a psychotherapist in the series Shrinking, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of Fresh Air interviews. You can also watch some of our interviews on our YouTube page. This is Fresh Air. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations on what to watch, read, and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org slash freshair. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, and Adam Staniszewski. Monique Nazareth, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman, and Nico Gonzalez-Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Thea Challener directed today's show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.