Women are forced to be resilient: The gender tax on female athletes with Dr. Emily Matheson

When you think about the word resilience, what comes to mind? Today we're talking about what most resilience research studies miss. The sports system itself often breeds or creates adversity, and women are navigating agenda tax men simply don't pay, which creates resilience. When researchers think of resilience, they're often measuring stoicism or independence or even emotional suppression. But these traits are coded as masculine. So what are they missing? The relational resilience women actually use, checking in with themselves, leaning on their community, doing the cognitive work and emotional work to stay in or intentionally leave the systems that weren't built for them. Dr. Emily Matheson is a researcher whose work sits at the intersection of body image, hitting disorder prevention and women in sport. Her latest qualitative research study asked the question most resilience studies just skip entirely. What extra way are women carrying that men simply aren't? And what does this mean for resilience? In this episode, we talk through a plain language breakdown of three resilience spectrums, from disconnection to attunement, avoidance to acceptance and maladaptive versus adaptive coping. We talk through why standard resilience measures may be undercutting women's strengths, how leaving a sport can be resilience, not a failure of it, and what the gender tax looks like in real life. This is one of those episodes that reframes everything. Let's get into it. All right, we have Dr. Emily Matheson. Emily, welcome. I saw you. We've been running in the same circles for a while now. I think I saw you for the first time at women's coaches in Posey. I'm probably presenting about body image research. And then we've kind of, you know, crossed paths since. So welcome. I'm really excited to have you here to join our audience. This is exciting. It is an absolute pleasure and honor to be considered in this sphere. Yes, we have definitely kind of oscillated, I think, a shout out to Dr. Nicole LaVoy for kind of being a bit of a Nutulus for women to then Ford and bringing people together. So yes, yeah, tell us about yourself. Introduce us to the listeners. Yes. So Dr. Emily Matheson, by day, I'm currently leading the research strategy and operations at Great Mind, which is an education publisher, but kind of my through line for research has always been girls and women body image, eating the sort of prevention. So kind of for the last 10 years, that's where my phone kicks have been and collaborating with industry partners like Darv and Nike. And that's what I was presenting on at the women's coaching symposium a couple of years ago. I would say that was my career highlight with leading the development and evaluation of body confidence for it. And that was, you know, in collaboration with Darv Nike, the Center for Appearance Research Center, which I was based at. And then the Tucker Center. And so, yeah, a really cool, unconventional journey in this space and then more recently led some research, qualitative research on resilience among women in sports, which is part of a live portfolio of work that's headed up by Dr. Tiffany Stewart at the Pennington Biomedical Research Center. Very cool. And that was that stopped me in my tracks, because I get, you know, our listeners know I've noted before I get email digest from some of my favorite journals and kind of the PubMed, you know, like, you know, does it have the key search terms kind of keyed up for my favorite. And the title stopped me in my tracks. This is one of the reasons I love qualitative. I don't love analyzing qualitative. I like reading it. We're we're forced to be resilient. Yeah. And I was like, okay, what's this? And then I see Dr. Emily Mappison, Dr. Catherine Akerman. And I'm like, okay, let's, we need to dig into this. So tell us about this research study and what you did. Yeah. So to be honest, on a personal level, this was a dream collaboration. I've long admired Tiffany as well as Dr. Carolyn Becker, who was also a senior author on that body of work. And really this is part of a larger portfolio at digging into the concept of resilience, particularly among girls, women. And, you know, there were two quantitative studies that came before mine. And they were showing things like emotion regulation, experiential avoidance, social support. They are things that predict resilience over time. And that resilience itself is going to better predict mental health outcomes. And so to your point around, qualitative, quantitative, my job was then to explore kind of the why behind those numbers. And so we interviewed 14 athletes. They aged, their age ranges were 19 to 46. And it was across seven different sports. And so kind of the big themes to come out of that, including one of those amazing folks from our participant, Carly, pseudo anonymized, was that the sport itself, the sport system itself, sorry, breed diversity. And particularly around gender based stresses. And that hasn't quite been explored among the resilience research today. What are the additional things that women are having to carry and to navigate when it comes to being an athlete within this kind of patriarchal system? That's actually my, that's my favorite kind of finding from this body of work. And we'll get on some soda boxes. Oh, totally. It reminds me of kind of the, you know, researcher, the concept of post-traumatic stress versus post-traumatic growth. It's like, okay, you're pleased in this environment. Circumstances, people are going to respond in different ways for a variety of reasons. And so resilience is one of those things that can come out in the face of adversity. Yeah, you know, the system is forcing it as, you know, she so aptly noted. So the thing, I think that was really interesting to me is how you talked about adversity or you talked about resilience with kind of three different, like continuum, right? The first one, and this is very, you know, the academic jargon. So we'll unpack this for ourselves and like, what does this look like in day-to-day life? But so the first one was the sense of disconnection to attunement, which again, fascinating, we'll dig into that because disconnection and sport is often like just like, you know, like, block it out, like, don't you? So, and then avoidance to acceptance. Yeah. Also, fascinating. And then the third one was maladaptive to adaptive coping, which that makes sense. So I guess, talk us through each of these. What was that first one? What does that mean? Disconnection to attunement in the, like, in the context of resilience? Yeah. And I really just want to, before I dig in, emphasize that point around these amorphous buzzwords, like, I think resilience has become a buzzword, as just being kind of like, attunement and accepted. But we have to unpick what that actually looks and sounds like, because if athletes don't have these tangible concepts to work with, how can we expect them to, you know, firstly, identify the values they might already be engaging in that are helpful or perhaps unhelpful, and how can they build up those skills? So I really want to kind of underscore how important it is to help build up our language and, you know, kind of the tangibility of these concepts. Yeah. In terms of, like, I think we work with an example. So, you know, we might have an athlete that's coming off a rough training block. She might have finished a session and she feels that her coach was distance towards her, or maybe giving her the silent treatment. And she's also got this, like, niggling knee that just doesn't feel quite right. So in the case of disconnection, what that could first look like in regards to the culture is discounting the broader social context that's happening. Yeah. So it's just, you know, thinking about myself and that's it. Like not thinking about how these signals are, you know, maybe reflecting something bigger that is happening and jumping to conclusions about why the coach might be engaging in a behaviour like that. And then with the knee, it's quite simple in that, you know, disconnection would be not checking in at all with it and kind of just letting the sensations sit there unexactly. So that's kind of what disconnection could look like there. If we are trying to move down the spectrum to more an attuned way of connecting with those signals, it would be, you know, for the knee, you know, actually checking in with yourself. Does this feel different than typical soleness? How long's this been going on for? What type of moves are aggravating it? Then with the coach, again, it's pausing to consider what could else be explaining her distance and silence? Maybe she's managing a dozen athletes that day. Maybe she's got her own shit going on and hasn't been able to, you know, distance herself from it. And, you know, that's maybe how she's showing up today. And so again, with this disconnection and attunement piece, it's about being connected to ourselves and the space or around us, but also being mindful that when we're in a uncomfortable space or we're having bad days, we are more tuned into negative cues. And we're actually more likely to interpret ambiguous or neutral cues as negative, rather than positive. So again, that was the next separation from ourselves and the signals is really important. That's interesting because I think about, especially now, everything is so data-driven and even automated, right? So like, oh, classic example. I'm a cyclist and so we often do, I often do. It's called Erg mode. So it's basically like you're on the trainer and then you just plug in the workout that you're supposed to do. So if I have a set of intervals, the trainer will just add the resistance needed. All I need to do is keep pedaling. And so then it will add the resistance needed for me to sustain certain power or watts and get the interval workout in. But it sounds like from that disconnection piece, I could be watching Netflix, checking my email, like not hang any attention to how my body is feeling in the moment, probably not helping you with the resilience in that sense. Or I could be more attuned to turn off Erg mode, generate the power myself and say, hmm, how am I feeling? How's the body responding to this? How's the effort? Right? It sounds like that's kind of another example of what it would look like. 100% and I don't even get me started on kind of optimization culture and habit stacking. Don't get me wrong. I believe that there is like everything in moderation. But again, to your point around being data driven and automation, we have lost this ability to sit with these kind of more analog ways of doing things. And we have lost our way in checking in with ourselves. And also using that as a data source. Yes. Using that as trusting ourselves, you know, and I mean, for those of us who still race, then thinking about like, what does that mean in the context of racing, you're not, you can't be tied to the computer, you know, the best athletes when I, like, I work with, you know, the pro Olympic Paralympic athletes, they're not paying attention to their numbers when they're racing. Are you kidding me? No, like, they're paying attention to their body, the sensations, what others are doing, the tactics, the games, following their intuition, right? And then reflecting afterwards and looking at the numbers. Yeah. Okay. How about the avoidance to acceptance piece that second continuum? Yeah. And I think the logic kind of carries through in this way as well. In terms of that injury pace, so starting with the knee, avoidance behavior would be pushing through it. And, you know, again, not listening to those signals, it would be, you know, not engaging with your health providers, your athletic trainers, perhaps even going as far as completely avoiding social interactions with them, because that might bring a sense of guilt or shame, could you are omitting information from them? And, you know, in terms of kind of that, like, thinking about this shift to acceptance, it could be something as simple as like, oh, something it doesn't feel right here. And not catastrophizing, not thinking, oh my gosh, I'm going to be out for the next month. It's, it's going something's not right here. What's my next move? And again, this kind of the sooner we can use that data point to inform the next step, the closer we are to a solution. And one of our athletes said this, like, she wallowed for two days after an injury. And, you know, she listed all of the things that she did intent from ruminating to aggressively texting her mom and dad and friends about how anxious she was. And then it was by end of day two, that she almost was sick of herself of like, oh, girl, get out, get out of your head, get out of this wallowing. And she connected with the athletic director. And the sooner she did that, the sooner she was into rehab and was bound on track. And again, I love a pity party. Who does it? But you've got to cap it and know when to cap it and know what a, for a lack of a better word, optimum amount of wallowing and pity party is before we transition into kind of solution-focused approaches. That makes a lot of sense. I can think of so many folks, myself included, who have like waited to see a healthcare provider for diagnosis or prognosis until after an event or a race or something, because they don't want to be told not to do it. I've also seen it. I'm sure you have as well in the context of like eating disorder treatment. Very clear avoidance of like, I don't want to go and get an intake or get assess because I don't want them to tell me that I need treatment. Like, it's that denial, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's also to not minimize the fact that it's also not always easy to connect with health providers in ways that, you know, firstly, we know about how long it can take to get into them. And also when we do meet with them, we might not be met with the level of empathy and inquiry about the said concern. So again, it's messy, it's complicated. But if we can at least start that journey as best we can, we're on the rac track. Okay. And then how about the third one, maladaptive to adaptive coping? Yeah. I always kind of, I do, I like this wording and at the same time I don't, because I think maladaptive, adaptive comes with its own kind of weight. But again, you know, in the case of this basic example of a knee, again, it would be things like engaging in overtraining to perhaps use of the form of emotion regulation to kind of suppress those uncomfortable emotions. You know, it could also be ruminating or catastrophyling about the said or unknown kind of outcome. And I think again, if you are just coming up with all these ideas of what it could be without kind of cutting that short and actually getting an answer, we can, we can spiral in that space. And so again, thinking about some of those behaviors that perhaps contribute to that festering and contribute to those kind of prolonging the inevitable, whereas we start to look at kind of moving along that spectrum and really thinking about what are some small things we can do that are health promoting and are kind of intentionally, an intentional pivot towards a solution. That's a pretty basic in that sense of coping, not coping. And yeah, what the hideers are we intentionally engaging in. Yeah. I often think about, I have a lot of my clients, I think about we have conversations of like, okay, this might be, it may have been strategic coping for you in the moment to kind of get you through that situation, but it may no longer be serving you. So let's think about their long game and kind of the patterns, right? And so what may have been adaptive may have been what you needed in that situation or in that environment or in that relationship. But when it becomes a pattern and it's no longer serving you, that's when it is no longer adaptive. Yeah. And it's, that's that, that context and flexibility and, right? And that's tough, especially a lot of cheaters is like right and wrong. Black and white, you know, like just tell me the one way to do it. This has worked for me in the past, so I'm going to keep doing it. Yes, absolutely. And also like even when we think about building up our toolkit, you know, there are tools that we, you know, lean on more so in certain chapters of our life. And then we, like you said, they might not be as pertinent or as important. And then we go, okay, well, what else can I build up? And so this toolkit is also flexible in terms of what we can lean on and what we're building. Yeah, yeah. This episode is brought to you by Momentus. You know, it's wild. A lot of us take creatine every day without really knowing what's inside of it. I realized I was just trusting the label until recently. And that wasn't enough. Creatine works. The research is clear. But a lot of brands focus on flavors and marketing instead of the creatine itself. Momentus signature spec creatine is manufactured in a pharmaceutical facility with six stage testing. It delivers 10 times fewer impurities, tighter heavy metal limits, and screens for PFAS and microplastics. The ultra fine powder mixes clean, no grit or clumping. I've been adding the lemon flavor to my water bottle every day before work now. And I'm loving it. If you want to try Momentus signature spec creatine, head to live momentus.com and use code performance for up to 35 percent off your entire first order. That's live momentus.com promo code performance for up to 35 percent off live momentus.com promo code performance. Tired of cheap sunglasses sliding down your nose, mid ride or run or leaving expensive eyewear at home because you're afraid of losing it or breaking it, your eyewear shouldn't hold you back. That's why it's too fuzzy. exists. They believe great performance I wear shouldn't just be for pro athletes. The name means superfan in Italian, and that's exactly who they make I wear for. Athletes who want premium performance features without the premium price tag. Every pair is built with lightweight flexible frames and their glide technology, which means a no-bounce fit and frames that slide on easily without pulling your hair. Hydrophilic nose pads actually grip more as you sweat, so your glasses stay secure during even your hardest efforts. Shatterproof polycarbonate lenses, reduce glare, resist scratches, and protect your eyes. Many models are even prescription ready. Head to ToFozyOptics.com and use code Feisty2026 for 20% off. That's ToFozyOptics.com code Feisty2026 for 20% off. So the one other thing that was, I mean, they were not one other thing. There were so many things that were interesting with this is you also give the women an assessment that measures resilience. Yeah. I have so many questions about this because it was, you know, the self-report resilience measure, and then you kind of looked at the scores, and then you found that women that were in kind of this lower floor tile where they store lower on the resilience measure at per self-report questions. You know, I feel this or I do this or I think this. They still demonstrated a lot of resilience in the interviews. So this is what's quite quantitative. What we're measuring versus what's actually showing up in these like these in-depth lived experiences. A whole different stories. Can you talk a little bit about what you found there? Yeah, absolutely. And a fun fact, we actually had to expand the quartiles because we were finding that we were getting very few athletes that were fully in the upper quartile. Interesting. That was kind of like, and then that's when we started to tap into, okay, how are these athletes perceiving themselves? Yeah. And I think what I loved about this with, you know, I think this is a really good example how questionnaires are important tools that we can use, but they're not vital. They're not something to be kind of stamped, and that is, you know, how you're locked in. And I think this was something that I learned very early on in my clinical career in terms of, you know, we don't ask a client to fill out a questionnaire, and then they never see it again. And actually, there's a really kind of nice cycle education opportunity there to sit down with a client and say, you know, let's look at this item by item, and, you know, do you see yourself in these responses, you know, because you've said this, and yet when I've been working with you, I've noticed x, y, and z. And I think an important thing that we brought up in the paper was that a lot of existing resilience measures are kind of grounded and normed in these traits that are kind of typically coated as masculine, shallown sound. You know, yeah, still look at them independence suppression kind of pushing through, which are again, kind of cornerstone traits within sport around what it means to show up. Whereas I think the thing that we were seeing among our athletes was more of a kind of relational form of resilience. It was again, this checking in with themselves, so having that relationship with self, and then having relationship with the space around them, you know, whether that's their direct in a circle, whether that's their broader community. And I don't think that we're there yet with regards to measuring, measuring capturing that relational aspect, let alone the gender, you know, based stresses, they don't, they don't capture those. And so I think, you know, we made a very intentional decision not to disclose the scores to athletes before and or after the study. And that was because if we shared some of these scores with them and we were saying, hey, you technically scored in the lower portal for resilience in terms of internalizing that information. And again, coming back to the point of like putting more weight on data, if I give them a score of, you know, 19, they are going to remember that versus them remembering all the things they shared with me about the, you know, struggles they've had and how they've navigated it. And so again, you know, a number versus how they are actually engaging, is where that complimentary acquaintance follows so important, because numbers don't always tell the picture. It's so interesting because when I first read that, I was like, I initially, I was like, who made the question, what, who's defining resilience, like, who are you to, I don't even know who you is to define, I mean, I'm familiar with the measure, but it's like, who's determining that, like, women in this case, female athletes are actually low on resilience, like, who gets to make that decision, right? But then it's fascinating. I didn't even consider what you just said about the self perception is that on those questions, so it's kind of double loaded. It's, you know, the questions themselves, maybe biased toward kind of that stoicism or kind of pushing through not capturing the relational components. And also, the female athletes may be harder on themselves and more critical in perceiving themselves in a more negative light of like, I should do more, I should be better. Probably in part because of those norms, right? Does that come together? Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. And I think like, we, what was really interesting is towards the end of the session with athletes, we asked that do you perceive yourself to be resilient? And every single one said, yes, thanks. What came after was interesting in terms of how they defined or how they explained that self perception and we can get into that. But yeah, it was again, they were all confident to say that they, you know, by their standards, they were resilient. But again, this measure was suggesting otherwise. And that's kind of implications for, you know, if we're thinking about systematic change or, you know, upskilling coaches and upskilling athletes in resilience, what are what are interventional prevention programs look like? Right? Because again, if you have these athletes, if we're using those quantitative measures as signals for where we should be focusing, our prevention and intervention methods, they're misaligned. And so again, that's why it's so important to have these theoretical frameworks to understand what it is that we're actually talking about, what are the inputs, what are the outputs, and where can we support these athletes on what they're really struggling with? There was, I did research a while back on women in gender diverse cyclists and microaggressions. And we didn't use the word microaggressions just because that can have has such a loaded meaning behind it. Yeah. But we kind of, you know, we adapted a measure to kind of say how many times have you had these types of experiences in the past or how often or how frequently? And then we asked some follow-up questions about, you know, what were the feelings that came up? What were the underlying messages that you were internalizing? And, you know, in for context, there's, I don't know, like, it depends on the discipline within cycling, but it's often like 10 to 15% of a field in competitive cycling is in the women's field. And one of the, so we also then asked them, like, how did you respond? Because often, how, like, how do you respond? Especially if you're on the line, like, at the start of a race or you are racing or you just don't have the capacity because you've just had a really long day. And the thing that was interesting is one of the things that came out was no response, which makes sense. Like, I don't have the energy for this. I'm not going to engage. But then the relational component is processing it later with friends, colleagues, teammates, people in their inner circle. And that, I agree, is something that's not talked about often enough. Because that's huge for that resilience. Because then you get that validation and recognizing, like, no, this isn't a you thing. This is a bigger picture thing. Like, yes, this is a thing that happens. It's not something that you could have ever should have done differently. A hundred percent. And on that point, you know, when it comes to people who decide to stay or leave their sport and either move to a different sport or move out of sport completely, that I don't believe to be associated with resilience per se. It might be that they just didn't have the support systems to absorb some of those additional taxes that we as women are presented because of these kind of gender based stresses. And so again, like you said, if I have experienced that on race day, I decide not to engage in it for a protected reason. I get to the end of the race. I don't have a coach who I feel safe to be able to disclose that event to or a talk through. I might not have a partner at home or a close group of friends who I can talk through it. There is a number of reasons to where that safety net can't absorb that emotional experience. So where do you go then and that chips away at you over time? And so you then decide, you know what, this isn't working for me anymore. I love the sport, but there might be other opportunities I'm presented with that are more aligned and maybe don't require as much of me and with, you know, little in return. I might start to explore other opportunities outside of my current situation. So again, that relational piece is huge for absorbing some of those stresses. Yeah. What were some of the stressors that showed up consistently that are likely gender kind of base that are going to be unique to female athletes? Yeah, I think the one that stands out to me is the structural pieces. And to be honest, this is my third book because I think this is what really frustrated me with every interview we conducted or every interview that I read and analyzed. It was really just saying how blatant the, you know, gender and equality were, but also how fixable some of them were. And so to give you an example, one of the collegiate eye hockey players was explaining to me that her games were held at 2 p.m. on a weekday. Because the men team were held at 7 p.m. on a Friday or a Saturday from time. From time to time. And that to me is not a hard problem to solve for it. That's an intentional scheduling decision. How does these real chain effects? And so if, you know, if nobody can attend again, whether that's the community, whether that's potential fans, whether that's sponsors, they can't become invested in these athletes because there's no way we can see them or get access to them on a consistent basis. And again, this is part of, you know, the reason for the disparities in how mentees are resources, resources versus women. And, you know, she made mention of she would see the men's team get all this free staff. And it was like, well, we're working just as hard as them. If not harder at times, while also working full-time jobs when a lot of them aren't. That's, I see that all the time for the pro women that I work with. Yes. And I think that we are like, we are seeing some shifts, you know, I don't want to completely poo poo on it all, but like there are some some shifts that I think we're seeing is in real time with like the NIL and how like, you know, some of the highest earners are women. Because there is some increased accessibility and visibility and, you know, I know that the NIL comes with its own complexities and challenges. But again, I think that this is a really good example of this upcoming generation challenging the status quo and actually expecting more of others for them. And it's like, oh, you want me to show up, then create a space for me to do so. And so that to me is like, it was the, it's the blatant structural inequalities and decisions that are made. That was really the thread for a lot of these interviews. And another example was Carly, who was an older athlete. And she spoke about, you know, how because of the lack of investment in the infrastructure for women sport. It often meant that women were having to travel away for opportunities. Yes. And this can be, this is ultimately a displacement of yourself. Like, you are upgrading yourself from one place to another. And what does that then mean for your social networks? And, you know, again, we've discussed how those social networks are so important to absorbing some of those stresses. And so for women, that was just an expectation. And with that expectation, it was like, well, now what do I do? Like, and so that again, it is because of the lack of investment at that graph rate level and all the way through two more elite levels. That women were having to compromise on other aspects of their life, traveling away from spouses or partners, family, going outside of the country to do this for having to be in an environment where, you know, the language isn't your first language. And again, that can be really enriching, but it doesn't come without its own stresses. After having a pretty awesome time at my most recent triathlon, I've decided to return to my reluctant triathlete era, which means depending on your relationship with the pool, and there's no better way to do it than with a suit that doesn't ride up or down in all the wrong places or give me another reason to question my everyday training or race registration decisions. The Orca Core One Piece is built with compressive fabric that actually supports you while you swim, whether you're in the pool or open water. Plus, it's made with 80% recycled materials, GRS certified, and it's reasonably priced to further enable my triathlete era purchasing decisions. If interested, you can get 15% off with code feisty15 at the link in the show notes. Again, feisty15 for 15% off at the link in the show notes. Speed work changes everything. Even if it doesn't feel good, your pace, your confidence, your race day performance, but if your shoes weren't built for how you actually move, you'll be held back in ways you didn't realize. The headers almost speed was created for athletes who thrive on intensity, short road races, fast intervals, and peak effort sessions where every stride counts. Built using real female biomechanics data from Simon Frazier University's RunLab, a narrower heel cup, low ankle collar, and bellow propulsion technology, tuned to how women actually move. I've been using the Alma speed to get my speed back while training for an upcoming Sprint triathlon, and these shoes are built for exactly that. They've been so fun. All Alma models are 198 US, head to headers.com and use code stay feisty for 20% off. Science backed, women first, no compromises. How many of them? I think there were a decent number. One of the threads was also in the idea of leaving or choosing to leave as giving up, quitting, that was associated with low resilience. You push back on that, so do I. Sometimes mental toughness is choosing not to do anything. The courage to walk or roll away and be like, nah, I'm done. I deserve better. Where do you think, I guess, how do we distinguish, and how this is something, as a sports psychologist, I really struggle, is how, what is my role in helping women, especially young women, play the game, knowing that they're a part of this toxic system, they deserve better, versus knowing they deserve better and choosing to leave. How do we differentiate? When is it time to be like, yeah, I'm done. Yeah, I think where my viewpoint falls on this and it is actually an intuitive reaction at times is this kind of values based approach and very much a self awareness. You know, for example, is an athlete changing direction because her situation no longer aligns with what actually matters to her and is, you know, in case of the quitting or jumping ship or giving up. They're more associated with being reactive and maybe an athlete hasn't fully examined the situation and weighed up the possible cuts forward. Yeah, I also want to be very clear that sometimes jumping ship or removing yourself immediately is actually important and values aligned because of safety reasons. And we might not have the luxury of thinking through all of our pros, cons and opportunities or alternative solutions. So, you know, I think in that situation, what makes it deliberate is that even if it's happening fast, it's that the athlete is reading the situation. accurately, your spotty senses are going off and you're like, no, this, this is what matters. I need to remove myself, but what we were, what we were kind of pushing back on in the paper is that often quitting and stepping away was sometimes synonymous with low resilience, but really when athletes spoke about any, any times that they did step away, they were actually doing a lot of cognitive work in, you know, thinking through why this situation is no longer serving them, why would they maybe look at stepping away, then also bouncing those ideas off of trusted folks, so they were very much engaging in a very intentional kind of problem solving exercise, which again is very residual. Yeah, that's, it's wild because I also think about, you know, much of your sample and you noted this in the research was, you know, pretty privileged white, you know, able-bodied athletes with a decent amount of privilege, dealing with all of these gender disparities, I didn't think about some of the athletes I work with, especially in like the Paralympic or Adaptive Sport space, oh my goodness, yeah, like let's talk about some more disparities, like they're just so many levels, right, like when we, like a collegiate, there's a structure designed to support them, may not support them to the extent that it's supposed to, right, but there's also like a structure, what are some of the, like were there any themes that came up or nuances, whether it was, you know, like race, class, sexuality, other kind of, historically excluded identities that emerged. Yeah, it's, it's a really good question, and to be honest, a lot of the work that I did at the Center for Appearance Research had very much shape how I approach just research practices from a very intersectional length, and, you know, thinking about how, looking at our identities, shape how we show up in the world, but also how the world showed up for us. And so I think before I answer your question, one thing that we were really intentional about was in our recruitment efforts that we were explicitly reaching out to biopop athletes, as well as the LGBTQIA+ community, because we didn't want them to think that they were not staying in a generic clout for women, right, rather than like only researching their experience as like, because then you're associating them based off of their identity in that context, as opposed to the larger community, that makes sense. Yeah, and they're not an edge case of women, they are women in sport, they make up women in sport. Again, what I think it comes back to is the text of research participation, totally. It's not free, even if we give it more incentive. And I think particularly for some of these groups, there is a rightful skepticism about why would I participate in that, you know, what are you going to do with that information? But also, is it a safe place and enjoyable experience for me to do share my story? And so again, we're not going to solve it in this paper, but I think in terms of the representation, we did have a number of athletes that identified as fear, that identified as mixed race, and very much the findings that we had are more of a starting thread rather than things I can confidently say they experience. I think there was definitely, on the sexuality part, you know, one athlete brought up what it means to be in a predominantly queer environment, and some of the structural and hierarchical considerations that need to be made there. That to me is fascinating, and in and of itself is a whole research domain. So that was one particular one. I think especially on the race piece, there were a number of athletes who spoke to those, you know, as they say, for lack of a better word, microaggressions. And, you know, how that showed up, and again, how they navigated conversation with either teammate on things that were said, and, you know, what was their comfort level to approach it, a teammate versus approaching a coach, and then also based off of their position in the team, if they were a captain, they felt that they could, you know, set the tone and, you know, lead with that kind of intentionality and inclusivity from the outset, rather than having to come at it from a slightly different angle of mind, not a captain. So again, those, I think from a team-based perspective, they acknowledged a much more hierarchical environment that they were having to navigate with various dynamics and power relationships that was very kind of an effortful act for them. So that again, just team sports versus maybe individual sports is another element to that. I think about like, yeah, like the tax of participation. One thing that's been cool is I've been noticing like more of the athletes I work with have been working with agents, and I'm like, yeah, like get it. It's been so, it's been really cool. But with that, it sums a lot of work. Like, there's just, they're, they're hostile. And I'm stoked for them, and I'm stoked with there are more agencies popping up that are, you know, looking specifically for the misfits and rabble browsers and the folks who are really making waves in the field. But there's also a cost. And we see this with, you know, Megan Rapinoe in supporting trans youth and trans girls and losing sponsorships, right? So I think there's also this, then the limelight is on you. And then you add their layers that I have to show up in this way. I have to be appealing. And I also have to be a really incredible athlete. So it's like the more resources that you get, then the more taxing the system is because you've got more eyes on you essentially. Also, absolutely. And also the goal post change, like, what is now expected of me on a regular basis? Like, I am expected to step in line every single time perfectly. And that's not human. Like, we are imperfect. We're not always going to get it right. And again, this is where I think social media played into this around, you know, these polished concepts of how athletes are showing up. And it's like, no, that's not the journey. That's not what's happening behind the scenes. And again, in terms of the representation, it is very much an unrealistic kind of unattainable goal. And that's why we need exposure to women's journey to an appropriate amount. But we need to see the full scope of it, you know, we can't just be the wind or, you know, the slightly messy element that is not nicely, you know, tidied up in, you know, in a boy, we have to see what it means to struggle. And then how to overcome that struggle. That's what we need access to. Right. Yeah. Cause that's not just a personality trait that people just happen to have. Right. Like, you've got to, you've got to put in the work and process it. And then also have the resources needed to support you through that so that you can get to the other side and come out stronger. Yeah. What are, as we start to wrap up, what are some of the things you're working on now? What's in the pipeline? What are you excited about? Yeah. It's a really good question. Admittedly, I've taken a slight step back from academia, which has also been a really nice chapter in my life and in my career. The work from this paper has kind of just wrapped up. And we are, you know, looking at some future opportunities that I would say watch this space. I think it's about, you know, we've gathered this point work. We've gathered this qualitative work. What's next? Um, so I'd say watch that face. Uh, I also continue work very closely with my colleagues at the Center for Appearance Research, uh, Bill of a Deidrex being one of them as well as Cap Schneider. They're both on the list. Uh, Philippa and Kat, we're coming for you. Please, they have so much knowledge and wisdom to share. Uh, what particularly exciting is watching Kat's work on weight bias, particularly within movement spaces. And so, yeah, kind of being a, um, senior support, uh, on that work. So yeah, it's there's no balance of pursuing some other opportunities, while also, uh, continuing to nurture and foster those collaborations with kickoff women who are just, you know, making waves and challenging the status quo. Absolutely. Yeah. And as we were saying before, it started recording, like being able to do things differently, like a career now, like there are just more opportunities. Um, and it's, it's really cool to kind of piece things together. It's been really cool for me to figure out that professional identity and what that looks like and feels like for me. And then that kind of what you're talking about actually in the context of resilience, the self reflection, and kind of tuning in and asking myself, like, how do I feel in this space versus this space? What are the things that bring me joy? What are the environments where I really do show up as my best self, right? So yeah. Yeah. how can for folks who want to follow you and kind of see what you know what you're up to in the future. What is the best way for them to do that? Yeah, I've gone old school on this. I'm actually I have a website where I update projects that I am currently active in. So, Dr Emily Matheson.com. Yeah, that's the way that I'm finding it's easiest to maintain a work-life balance at the moment. So at there and you can see what I'm working on. Wonderful. Thank you so much Emily. This was such a great conversation. We appreciate having you. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute joy. Okay friends, that conversation sat with me. Dr Matheson's research is clearly about so much more than resilience. It's about finally naming what women athletes have always known and felt. The system is asking more of us and then measuring us by the wrong ruler. A few things we're adhering with you today. Resilience in women often looks relational, not necessarily stoic or emotional suppression. So checking in with yourself and your people is a skill. Disconnection, avoidance and maladaptive coping are signals worth paying attention to. Stepping away is not quitting. When it's values based and done deliberately, it's one of the most resilient moves you can make. And finally, the measures we use to define resilience may not have been built with you in mind. That's super important. Here's your prompt for the week. Where are you pushing through something instead of actually checking in with it? Follow Emily's work will post her website in the show notes. And if this episode resonated, please share it with an athlete in your life who needs to hear it. And as always, leave us a review if genuinely helps. More conversations like this one are coming next week. We'll see you there. Thanks for tuning in to The Fisty Women's Performance Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, review and share. This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not establish a therapeutic relationship. In other words, I'm a licensed psychologist, but not your licensed psychologist. Always consult your healthcare provider before making important decisions about your health. Find show notes and resources at feisty.co. Join us next time as we continue to move the needle in women's health and performance via evidence-based conversations. Until then, keep living your healthiest feistyest active life.