Womas & Blackheads w/ Lucas Lee

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] pulled the story before, but they just kind of really found their way to me when I was early in this this reptile journey like, um, walmas I probably saw for the first time in college when I was just binging YouTube videos about snakes and specifically trying to learn more about Australian stuff going off of having found MPR and, you know, these are pretty cool. But, um, when I saw a walma python just on Google images, I, there was just something about it that was really captivating to me. I saved the picture. I texted my friends that I need a walma python. They're like, you're losing your mind. You don't need a walma python. Um, and when I had the opportunity to interact with one for the first time as a customer at the East Bay Vibarium, um, this big overfed six foot adult female that was for sale, uh, bit the crap out of me and literally like, the walma bug bit me. It was the first time I've been hit by a snake and I was bleeding all over the place. And for some reason, I still wanted it maybe even more. And I thought that that probably told me all I needed to know about my future life with walmas. So, um, when I, uh, was in Santa Cruz, I would, I would go a lot to place called pet shop Santa Cruz, which I know I've mentioned in previous conversations with you guys. And um, the couple that owns that shop, Aaron and Brandon, they had just gotten a clutch of walmas when I was a senior at UC Santa Cruz in 2019. And, you know, I was like, oh, please, you know, if you have any, I would love to buy a baby. Um, I graduated. I moved back home. I went on tour. Uh, but then when I got back from tour, they, they actually had one for me. They saved me a baby. And, you know, they called me and they're like, you still want this thing? So I drove down to Santa Cruz and picked her up and, uh, that's how I started with walmas. Um, it really exploded from there once I understood that there are so many different flavors out there. And, you know, I kind of, you slowly refine, um, and, and, you know, refine your goals, figure out what you want. And that definitely was true with walmas. And, and I put a lot of intention into upgrading my stock, um, over the years. Um, and just there's such a joy to keep their extremely active, confident, they're always out like these next to me right now. They're not a reclusive animal. They're, they're inquisitive. They're curious active during the day. And I think it's really hard to beat like a sand worm from the outback with neon orange bellies and perfect banding and really quirky eyebrows. They're just so endearing. Um, and I think I probably would be lying if I said that all the success that I've been able to have with them over the last couple of years hasn't made me like them even more like, um, they've been, they've been very kind to me with regard to, um, reproduction, success and, um, so, I mean, what's not to love? And on the black head side, when I was working at the East Bay Vivarium, upon graduating college, there was a Doug Price mail, uh, for sale at the store that had been there for apparently a very long time because my manager let me take it home for 600 bucks just to get it out of the store. Just if you can make it go away. And, well, yeah, part to shut me up and also part to, you know, keep things moving. Um, and I, I didn't really understand what it was. I knew it looked really cool and I knew everybody else on staff was telling me that it was a big deal. And, and so then I, you know, I do my homework a little bit and kind of understand the context of that animal a little bit better. And, um, yes, they're, they're just also all of the city, the things that I said are great about walmas are true with black heads as well. Right. But you're also getting something that need a little bit bigger. Maybe it's a little bit smarter. Um, has a little bit more of an attitude sometimes where they'll flatten their head and coil up in an S and hiss at you and just bluff strike like a freaking a lapid. Um, and again, you know, something where there's a ton of different flavors and a little bit more mystique, a little bit more. Um, there's something to this that people haven't cracked. And completely contrary to my experience so far with the walmas, the black heads were very kind to me at first. I got three clutches in my first two years. Only one was made it into the incubator, but I did get three clutches with three different females. Right. And then the last few years, I'm just scratching my head. Um, and that's not a novel experience in working with that species. It's, it's something that happens. It seems like they can be really boomer bust even for, um, folks who have success with a lot of other species. So is there any type of theories as far as, um, do they maybe, maybe they just take longer to rebound back from from playing clutch? It's possible. But then you also see other people that have no problem year after year. I mean, we love Justin, Julander. He's driving me nuts with giving eggs from his western like five years in a row or something like that. So do we love him? Do we love him? Do we love him? Not to say that there, there can't be anomalies. You know, I don't think that anybody should expect that to be the normal. Um, his girl loves to lay eggs, but my understanding too is that only two of the eggs in the last four or five years have become animals. So, um, you know, where's your trade off there? Um, is there more success with the easterns or westerns? Is it like is one group more successful than the other or? I think that it seems like more eastern animals or mixed animals are produced each year compared to the westerns, but I don't think that I can say that's because one is harder than the other versus just quantity in the country. Yeah, westerns, there's only a few people with that is right. There's a lot more that we're talking true, but true. Right. And barrier to entry in terms of costs like people that are, you know, just want to pair of blackheads and they're going to give it a shot at some point. Probably don't have westerns, you know, just as a generalization. Um, I know that there's particular. So with, with all of this stuff, both Womas and Blackheads, um, the, the, the folly is to assume that we know everything as it pertains to founding lines. There's tons and tons of founding lines that will never be discussed and we'll never see the light of day. But as you guys well know, sometimes that comes up in conversations, depending who your friends are and where you're at and what your level of trust with people are. And so I do feel comfortable sharing that there's a lot of different stuff. And, and some of that stuff from the sound of it, maybe is a little bit more finicky when it comes to reproduction. Other stuff's a little bit easier on the average, but it seems like regardless of founding stock, there also just seems to be, um, people that really have it dialed in year after year after year. Um, as the exception and then the majority of people seem to get some clutches and then and then it just doesn't happen. And you know, you'll, you'll have people talk about, uh, they must have fed it too much, you know, all their snakes probably got fat and that's why they can't get any clutches anymore. Um, I don't think I did that. Um, and I'm still having a hard time over here, but I have theories we can get into it is in my particular situation, but as a general rule, um, just broadly, I don't know why it seems more difficult for some than others. A question that I was thinking as you were saying, as you just, uh, talking was that, um, do the people that have success year over year, are they, are they typically, like, focused on those species? I think like I just came from my thought from talking to Ryan Yom and he was saying about how he's real successful with Indo stuff but then I'll show you this stuff. Sometimes it's finicky for him and he's thinking totally is it because of you know just being for different parts of the world could that have a factor in it? I'm sure it could, you know obviously some people have a lot more animals than others and just your odds of getting a good amount of clutches are higher if you're pairing 30 pairs versus 5 but I'm sure that that's true as well. People that are more focused either on the species or on a collection of species that I'll share the same requirements rather than kind of balance out different things. But there's I mean Derek has consistent success. Jason Hood did have consistent success until he moved into his dream snake building and now yeah, on expert in the idiot he's like now I have everything that I wanted but the production went into the toilet. It's going to take a little bit to bounce back but that's the assumption but it's been a while now. The other thing is that if you only have like if I had a room full of team or Python's the expectancy of me getting or the chances of getting the clutch of team or Python's is better. And then Ryan only has like maybe 2.2 or 1.1 and he still gets success but your chances go way down if you're relying on one female and one male to be exactly and that's just kind of how they go. And so well that's kind of the thing too and in terms of my particular case I had all three of my productive pairings in this room in smaller cages and in this isolated snake room that you know is a little bit more quiet. I in 2022 or something like that really excitedly bought big huge nice 6 foot cages for these animals that I loved and wanted to give more room and moved them out into the dining room in a stack of 6 foot cages. So nothing good has happened since then. They've been out there for a few seasons now without me changing anything but maybe I do need to change something maybe there's too much noise too much foot traffic too much light too much goings on out there for them to to want a cycle. The other thing that I had going on is that my western male that sired my clutch in 2022 was a 20 was a 2002 he's an old man and he's dead now he like just died of old age at 24 years old pretty good for not bad thank you. He's last couple years before he croaked did he even have the ability to reproduce like he might have shot his last shot just like just like and so there's that at play as well because each of those years when I was still riding him with being the primary male for these parents the girls built giant follicles they would tail wag you know they really wanted to go they would court him how old is your oldest boy right now. Well so I had that boy and then I had a 2020 boy that was in in terms of westerns had a 2020 western boy so he was a six year old boy but I had slow grown him and I thought he was big enough but he had never locked with anybody over the past couple years I was trying him this year he's locking up so he's not a dud breeder I think I just needed to get him some more size. I think you just needed I think you just needed an impressive male that was like it it just you lost your heavy hitter and now you're waiting for the heir apparent to come up here. This is the third party too so there was the 2018 melanistic western on loan from Nick but he's weird looking so the course that guy that guy bred a bunch two years ago with my proven western female she blew up she had massive follicles was laying inverted and she just never ovulated and then she reabsorbed and that male got the infamous should be in his prime male python stomach cancer and is no longer with us which is super sad I've had some gut punches this season already. You are the current front runner for the year. This terrifies me because Eric and I have yet to enter the competition in earnest so I'm waiting for the if I'm able to overtake you something really bad. Yeah. I don't want that. So 100% so I mean and look I should not be struggling to get a clutch it's not like I'm trying one girl or two girls right I'm trying four. Four female. All right so hold on it's four female westerns or four total three westerns one eastern one eastern and we have one western male and then we have well now there's one and yeah and then the eastern male is the one that I brought home from the Viverium in 2019 that's 2011 so he's also old but he's not that old right. Obviously the western male is got to jump between these three girls and eastern male just got to get one girl or are you doing that's right two western females a holy sacrilege in an eastern. No I was I was doing the former but at this point I'm mostly just leaving the western male in with the girl that was actually locking up with him and building follicles because the other two weren't doing anything with him. I also think three girls is a lot like right now I have a male caramel carpet jumping between potentially three girls and I have a younger male that isn't really doing anything kind of jumping on maybe taking one but I'm not seeing any action from the younger male but the breeder male is locking up with everything so it's like I don't want to have him in the wrong cage at the wrong time and miss it so I'm really focused on two of those females and the other one is a Hail Mary. Yeah and so my proven western females she laid for me in June the year that she laid she was late and so the other western females are on loan from Ryan and when he gets clutches because he gets them very early. He does. His eggs were hatching when mine were laid so he did not seem to see anything with white lips though too so I don't know if that's just Ryan. Exactly. Right. So what I have been doing with that is males with Ryan's animals for the first couple of months of breeding season and then male with my girl later to try and time them better but no success and then I feel like a lot of hair. So I go ahead. The Eastern pair laid while I was on tour in that one. 2023 or something to that something close to that. Yeah 2023 and they lock up like crazy all the time recreationally and she doesn't build any follicles. I was saying when you're getting eggs is like you said it was June lays late for Ryan's animals when do your animals primarily lay? Walmas usually in March. And is that kind of like the blackheads kind of overlap also like where they go as early as June and then maybe into the summer or because like again we were talking about the Ryan stuff Ryan had eggs hatched and most people get their clutches a lot earlier than June. Yeah. Okay. So it was a bit of an anomaly but she had also just that that's you know she had also just come here from Connecticut. So she might have been all thrown off. Yeah. I think it would take a couple years for them to settle into your way of doing it and then they might ovulated different times. The Ryan girls. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. I mean this is their second season here and one of them blew up like crazy last year their first year here. here and had chicken egg size follicles and was laying upside down and never ovulated. Like every animal I've ever gotten from Eric doesn't do shit the first year. Like I'm talking like adult animal that Eric's like here take this first year nothing. Second year, they're just like, all right, I got this now. Right now I'm into it. Let's go. That's when there are clutches. Yeah, antiregious stuff is going for me. They didn't do anything last year, but they all seem like they're grav it at the moment. Nothing from mine. Nothing and the problem is this is their third season and and primarily when you do three seasons of not, then I'm very mean to you the fourth season. So I don't want to be mean to these tiny little pythons, but I feel like they're forcing my hand. Well, I'm pretty dang mean to my black heads too. Almost to the point where I was worried am I getting them too cold? Like am I hurting myself? But you know, why are you talking about like you dropping down low when you breathe it? Yeah, at night, they'll definitely get to like 62 63. Okay. But I'm apparently mean to a lot of animals. Yeah, I mean not nearly as mean as I am to the diamonds and the brettles, but you know, that's horrible too. That should be plenty for them. There's there is reasonable theory based around like if they are overweight and they have too much of a fat pack, then maybe that's inhibiting them from being able to ovulate because it's insulative. Maybe they're retaining heat too much. You know, maybe they don't have the ability to do what they need physiologically to ovulate. But I really don't think like my animals are in that territory. Like I'm pretty conscientious about it. So maybe I just won't feed them until next fall and see if that makes any difference, but they don't. The bird diet, the bird diet when it comes to that has that has died to me. Oh, bird diet is is no longer let me let me give you some information about the diet. Don't catch pigeons and like feed them to your black head. Yeah. So there's a there's a publicly available fact sheet with all of the macronutrients in like the commercially available feeders. And I was super surprised and bummed to see that the court next quail and the chicks were pretty dang similar to mice and rats in terms of their crude fat content. Like it seems like a bit of a misnomer, not a misnomer, like a bit of a like of a myth that they're significantly leaner wild bird sure, but like a one day old chick is 22.4% crude fat for gross energy value of 5.8 kilocalories per gram. All right, but can mouse is 23.6% crude fat for a gross energy value of 5.2 5 kilocalories per gram. But what about rats? Because what what I did was go from rats are much more fatty. Right, because it's a prop. So obviously, yeah, because when I feed, check the mouse, it's the same damn thing. But when I feed kind of quail or chick compared to rat, that's when you see the weight drop. So check it out, the quail value was worse than the rat. Wow. The quail value. Wow. 32.9% crude fat for a gross energy value of 6.79 kilocalories per gram. All right, so what's bird? Was 6.37 kilocalories per gram. Okay, so we have to start breeding pigeons. It's probably tight, when you say, like, I mean, I'm sure that there's, you know, there's not every single commercial feeder is identical, you know, etc, etc. But just from from a high level, like we all say that birds have no fat on them and this is the superior lean feeder, it does not appear to be true. But I mean, they certainly come with a lot more roughage. And maybe tend to be less grams than a mouse or a rat. So I don't know. I was just really surprised to see that. So now when people are discussing the the bird thing, it's like, yes, and no. Man, I mean, backs don't care about your feelings. I see it, but it's like, I think the reason it worked with my white lip is because I believe that he was being fed like Excel, mammoth size rodents and then he went to, yeah, that's that's a medium coil. So like, could I have done the same thing with medium rats? Probably right. So like for lean mice. Exactly. So I think it's just also quantity and things like that that need to be kind of taken to account. So, I think animals that like to eat, it's hard. Like I see people get large collubrids just massive. And just and just I'm not talking huge because they can all get huge. But fat, like I my female false water cobra has to go on a diet this summer after she lays her eggs because she is she's got to be close to six foot long and she's like fire hose thick and somewhat terrifying. But she gives me like 16, 20 eggs a year. And she slims down a little bit, but she usually bounces back so hard it's ridiculous. But you know, I would like her to get a little bit leaner and get a little bit more moving. Otherwise, I have to try to find her eight to 10 foot cage because she's just massive. So I would imagine black it's kind of falling into that same realm because it's like they're like, I will eat that. This is edible. This is good. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I mean, we know this and if anything has a reputation for needing to be kept lean, it's them. So it's not like this is, you know, it has not been top of mind for me the entire time I've had them. That's why I don't think that's my problem because I am really careful with them. But you know, what are you going to do? Are they are they warm as the blackheads? Are they more in your experience? Are they more driven by temperature? Or are they more is it a feeding thing? Is it both? Is it kind of like you kind of do everything and you're not really, you know, have a specific. I think probably it's everything. I do definitely both cycle food and temperature and I haven't done like a breeding season where I did one and not the other. So I can't compare super directly. But the Womas definitely seem to respond really well to the the temperature fluctuations. And I never stop feeding the Womas like I separate feed and repair, you know, I kind of just feed them until they ovulate. So yeah, I think temperature is probably more important for the Womas. The blackheads, you know, I've tried to fuel some follicle development with frequent feedings, you know, during the key times like they handle food just fine during their winter period, you know, the the temps aren't a problem. But I haven't seen them respond super favorably to like feeding the follicles if you will like I right, right, right, like carpets and and kind of Womas as well. A Womas will react to that right? You feed the follicles. Okay. I treat them that way. It's hard to say like if they would have ovulated even if I didn't. But yeah, totally. I mean, if you chuck them a couple more rats and you get another egg, thanks to that like I mean, especially it's a blackhead, yeah, no 100% because you'll probably kill a few of them. So yeah, your odds. Yeah. It's funny because like I just fed yesterday and I had a I have a tiger had exanic carpet female and she's in with one of my caramel exanics and she's like she went from let yesterday when I when I was feeding her I'm looking at her and I'm like she's workly way off. She's like either whatever. After we're feeding that rat, she's thick where the rat is, but then she is a massive further down talking popping belly scale. like it's hard for her to uncool that back half of her. And I'm like, all right, well, there that is. - So like, I finally caught an ovulation. Luke, as you're talking everyone's smile is skink and that top thing is just like, (laughing) - I've gone follicle crazy. I need just all of the skinks. - The skinks. - I love them so much. - So I was writing down all these questions as we go. I guess my first thought is, is in your experience is, are Walmas the beginner and the blackheads are the more advanced, meaning that, you know how like sometimes, so people say get a carp and python before you get a condro, you know, 'cause they can be a little more finicky or whatever, carpets are a little more forgiving. Is that similar with Walmas and blackheads? Or not. I guess like technically the answer is probably yes. I just hate that framework. I feel personally like, the best thing to get is the thing that you're more interested in. So that you actually are driven to do the research and do it right. I think it's just as easy to mess either of them up. - If anything you know, (laughing) - Whoa, like, you know, you can totally 86 this entire thing. - And on the flip side, they're both equally bulletproof compared to other animals. Like they are super, super robust creatures. And you know, blackheads are probably on the average, less likely to bite you. So there is that. - Yeah. - Yeah. - But is it just that the, like, is a drop off where babies are concerned? Where it's like, Walmas makes come storming out of the egg and blackheads. - In terms of breeding, yes. There's absolutely no argument to be made. Sorry. Yeah. If we're moving past just keeping and talking about writing, 100% is a here and here. Because of breeding. - Yeah, I mean, if for no other reason, because Walmas come out of the egg and will eat frozen thawed. - Yes. - And blackheads are not going to do that. (laughing) And if you've never had to start one before, it's really stressful. You feel like you're gonna kill all of them. - Yeah. - And then one day they just, switch flips and they decide they want to live. But it's super unpredictable. And until that point, it feels like you're stressing them out and hurting them. And it's not a good time. - Food, your force feeding is it just like fuzzies, hoppers or is it like, snakes, and I'll say it sure or whatever. - Yeah. - You know, how, how, how, how we do it are you gonna go here? - Yeah, when I had my Western babies my first clutch, I started them on frozen thawed, still born jungle carpet that I had produced in frozen. - Wait. - Because it was really easy to slide down their throat. - Did the snake take to that or was it, did it seem like, oh, this is something that I know or was it still, you had to force feed it? - No, you still had to force it. - Yeah, they, they were not interested in eating. It doesn't really depend what you put in front of them. - Interesting. - It's more just an exercise in they won't become interested in what you put in front of them, unless you get some meals into them. Like, that's how you flip their switch. - Kickstart. - There's not like a better chance of them eating if you put something different in front of them, from like in my experience and from what a lot of other people have told me you have been doing this longer and in larger quantities than me. It's like it's not a game of giving them what they want. It's a game of they're not going to want until you get them going, which makes no sense. - I know about the trend of like, brain around that. - Right, like it demands an answer. Like it, it cannot be the case that something is not missing. Otherwise, this thing would not exist in. - Right, it wouldn't be able to, it's sort of like, they're all over the place. Like it's, yeah. - Mm-hmm. And I have no idea what that is. - And Australia is so true. - Having had to do it, it's so true. Like I, of course tried everything the first time. You're like, ah, I'm gonna solve this. I have like a frozen dwarf monitor. Ha, ha, ha. Like, no, I don't get this shit. But luckily with the Western babies that I had, after the carpet python thing, I would assist feed them a dailed quail, the, the cortinix quail, like a pretty substantial size quail. And luckily, they made it easy on me 'cause they would just swallow it. Like when I put the head of the quail in their mouth, and then I would start to caboose a fuzzy after the quail, and then eventually within a couple months, those were off to the races. This year, I was starting a group of blackheads from an unrelated line that was imported from South Africa. And I acquired these animals as non-feeding babies. So I had to start, even though I didn't produce any in 2025, I had to start like a clutch's worth. I had maybe like seven or eight on my plate. And all of those, unlike my Western spit everything, you could get it all the way past the jaws. Yeah. - Oh. - All the way past the jaws down, past the black nape in the colored section, and they'd still spit it. And I was like, you bastards, you want to die. And so that was really stressful. It was a lot more like hopeless feeling. (laughs) If they're gonna spit it, they're gonna spit it. - Yeah. - You can't stop. - That's pretty far down. - Yeah. But eventually all of them, I went with smaller, right at that point, down from a small fuzzy to a pinky. And then they would hold them down. And with them, it was really more of just a time, a waiting game. - Yeah, man. - Yeah. - They all started, yeah. - That's what it was gonna ask you was like, so you could watch edges, what's your time frame from when you start to feed them? - When I have had a clutch, I was like Derek and that I just did it, right after they shed. I didn't mess around or wait or give them any opportunity to just sit there and just waste. - Are you sure, is that certain? - Is that weighted? Is there anybody that's tried that? - People have tried that, but it, I-- - It deteriorated fast. - It does not, they don't deteriorate necessarily fast, but they will deteriorate. And it doesn't seem to help by in comparison with just starting their systems up and getting them so-- - Yeah, 'cause it's like, is an alternate, like sometimes the trick is is that you don't feed them until they hibernate. And then once they come out of hibernation, they're better to eat. - They're ready to go, yeah. - Absolutely. I think a lot of people have tried to wait, baby blackheads out and they just never come around. - They end up with a bunch of dead baby blackheads. - I've never heard it explained in this way. Like I always thought that like, I guess my perception was always that it was not the right food, but this is they don't want to eat at all. So maybe it's not. - Yeah, I mean, I've definitely put like, pray in front of them that they would eat in the wild. I know other people have done that. You know, other people of course have tried all your standard bag of tricks, fish, frog, gecko, lizard, organs, tuna juice. Like you could try all of it, scalp, boiled, brained. But yeah, I mean, like again, things that they will, that they do eat in the wild, you could put that in front of a baby blackhead. They just don't have a feeding response. They're not interested in doing anything but running. Very interestingly, what is the American blackhead? - What is it? - Eastern Indigos. - Oh, good. - Right. - I'm gonna guess. Same thing, just different font. And they gave me the exact same experience this year, except that unlike the blackheads, I didn't have to shove things down their throat. I would just bonk them in the face with a fuzzy and then they would start to swallow it. But I put everything in front of those guys that they should eat as well, including captive born garden snakes that I preemptively froze. And they didn't want anything. Some of them had to be teased fed like that for three months. I still have a female that still teased feed only. And this is the strongest feeding response animal you'll ever see. in your life. They don't have one until the switch flips. They will just sit there and die. And I don't understand what that is. And I think it's really fascinating that they occupy the same niche across the world. And they both give me this experience. Do you think that maybe it has to do with them like they have to hunt the food? I tried live. Okay. No, it's okay. It's all I had. Yeah. This is our conundrum today. I would all ideas are welcome. But just thinking like in my brain, like, is there, is it like they, I'm trying to think of an Indigo, right? And an Indigo is a very active snake. We talk about how much they move around. And they're, you know, yep, they come. They're definitely born and go for tortoise burrows and you know, probably emerge in late spring into summer where there should be prey availability. Once, you know, all that snow has thawed and temperatures are warming back up. Yeah, because I remember, I can't, I remember talking to, I believe we'll forget his name. From Australia, his brother had just passed a while ago. Koolagowski. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Troy. Yes. And his brother. He was the blackhead guy. Yeah. I don't know the brother's name, but yeah. Yeah, but the droids just go. But his brother was the one that was that was doing blackheads. I didn't like, okay, you know, at the time talking to Derek and Justin and these guys, the thinking was is that we were feeding too much and all this stuff, but they were saying about how they like pound their animals with food. That's right. Yeah. And you munkest rats and I'm like, what did you do? And he's showing us the snakes and I'm like, oh, I got to this. They're so fat, you know, it's really weird because that's absolutely true. People do not treat them the way that we treat them in the United States and Australia. And, you know, even people like Jason Hood will, will advocate for feeding a bunch of really big rags. Yeah. And he's like, what are you guys all talking about? Much the same people in Australia are like, what are you guys talking about with their eggs being hard? Yeah. So yeah, it really makes you wonder like, what is that? What's going on? Is there really something that we don't understand about an animal being in the wrong hemisphere? Like I don't know. It's a torquing. Well, then there's also the thing of like how many true blackhead lines are there here? Like I understand there's only this and only that, but there are many more than most people understand. Okay. Yeah. So it's not, I mean, but also the range is just so massive. Yeah. Is it that we were we kind of if somebody peeled back the layers, is it more than just easterns and westerns? Is it easterns, westerns, northern Southerns? Like, certainly. And, you know, Derek to his credit does bring this up a lot on podcasts. Like, in terms of documented animals that have come in of which there are some, they are northern territory animals. They're not truly from like the west coast. So if your definition of eastern is anything east of west, then they are easterns. Perhaps more accurate to say, you know, kind of central northern territory. Non westerns? Yeah. It's well, then, then like, is it that the wires are somewhat crossed a little bit that we have northern territory animals with other animals. Don't you have that with the walmas? Why would you have that with carpets? Also, why do walmas exist? Why do blackheads exist? Why are walma? Like, if there if there's such an advantage that they evolved the black head, why didn't the walmas do that too? We'll have to go back to the plasticine. Everybody get in the way back machine. We're going to go back like, is it? You damn near the same thing, except one of them eats more reptiles than the other one. Why don't they look the same? And walmas don't get as big. Is that where the split is? It depends. I mean, apparently the southwestern population got pretty dang big when it was still around. They on their way, do were they on their way to becoming blackheads? Well, that's gonna be a book question. I don't know if you have someone who's writing a book like writing a book taxonomically how close are they related walmas blackheads? Well, you can mix them together to make the walma head. So I don't know that I have an answer to that question. That's a that's a great question. I'll save that for the we're releasing the book episode. Yes, it can't be it can't be that far out because aside from walmas of blackheads, what else is in us biditis? No, they're all they're all going to take away your fight on part. I knew the answer. I know some stupid nomenclature thing came out to like, well, actually, the we char now it's a dammit. So it's the you never know, man. Shut up. All children's pythons are the same. All the same. Everything. But like we have stuff bringing that up. Justin's going to send angry emails. But like the fact that they're off on their own little branch that they cannot be that like, but it would be weird to see like what if genetically they are more diverse than say like, I don't know, carpet to a retic. Well, I would love to run that. If anybody has sequencing ability, I'll send you the samples. Let's see what we got. We should we should contact the the the ones who do the the shed stuff. RBI. Thank you. They got a they might not have it in the thing of being able to determine mutations, but they can probably give you some sort of read out. You might have to just compare alleles on a big sheet of paper for a lot. That sounds like a it's like Legos for adults. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. No, that's a good question. I do just, you know, I think it's really interesting that Wilma's and blackheads exist at all. And in the context of like, why did the common ancestor Python that, you know, we've all heard Nick describe a million times probably had red babies, probably had a pencil tail. Probably was about four to six feet. Like, why did I decide to abandon all that? Like the red color, the pre-handsle tail and just go in like on the ground and all the latest evidence. Why would feel like them being more derived? Like they they left the trees to go underground and they evolved away the pits. Like, it's it's very interesting. There's so many reasons to love these snakes. They're they're weird as hell. But being out there and seeing all the rock crevices and the rock escartments and shit, it's like, you know, the they're almost like they're a heat seeking missile to go through rock crevices and tunnels and stuff like that where it's just like forward. And in certain areas where they have to like maybe get out and get warmed up quick and then get back into someplace cooler. Maybe that's why the dark color. But okay. But then the womb is like in the desert. So it doesn't get any sense that way. All right. The recent work proposes the divergence around 17 million years ago. I thought that for okay. When we do meet and have an episode in honor of the book coming out, I'm sure Nick will have a lot to say on this topic. I mean, I would hope this is the point of the book. Yeah. Yeah. This is his wheelhouse. I think that I'm more in the natural history wheelhouse. But yeah. Has there been anything that I just want to answer that as this now? Has there been anything that you've learned natural history wise that has surprised you? Like a little nugget? Yeah. You want to give us a little taste? The first taste is free or free little taste to get us hooked. Yeah. I'm sure there's many things. I know. I think of like remember when you were you were doing talk with what's her name? Melissa? Dr. Bruton. Yeah. Dr. Bruton. I don't think we ever did a podcast with her though, right? No, no. No, no. No, no. I let me do. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I sent you some, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So when she spoke about the paper that she did where the one was went up into the trees to get the bearded dragon. That's shocking. I mean, that was like, what's the price? Yeah. Yes. So they're they're facultative arboreality in that particular place is absolutely shocking. And, and, you know, we've talked about that on other shows. It doesn't it doesn't follow rules, but walmas are just dumb enough to not know there's rules, you know? And it's like, I could totally just imagine them smelling that beer to dragon up in the tree and just not being smart enough to know they're not supposed to go up there 'cause they're pretty gerpy. And like physiologically, they're not built for it. They shouldn't be able to do it and they just do. (laughs) I love that. Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's the coolest thing for sure. With blackheads, I'm trying to think. I mean, it wasn't surprising, but just seeing more images of them eating everything was very striking. Got one incredible observation of a blackhead eating a carpet python like in the pipe of a house. So the picture's not great 'cause how do you take a picture of that, but just the fact that that happens is insane. Again, I have a picture of that as well. There wasn't that there was just recently or something that happened. We've probably got the-- (laughs) - Yeah, this is outside. Who's seeking missiles, man? That's all they are. It's food seeking missiles and that's why. - There was a lot. - There was a lot. - We saw years ago where the blackhead was eating another blackhead. - Yes, yeah, got that one as well. That was in a national park and the Australian government posted it up on their social media, the wildlife conservancy. One thing that I was-- - Okay, sorry. - So sorry, I was just say, natural history wise with the blackheads, one thing that I was-- It's not a surprise that it happens, but I was surprised how much people have been able to observe it happening is the male combat. I was really excited to get one picture of wild blackheads like twist around each other doing their thing, but then there's been a few more. So like it's not as rare of an event as I expected it to be. It was just cool 'cause we don't take advantage of that much in captivity. I don't think as blackhead breeders. - And it happens with almost two, right? - That is the case. (laughing) - The correct. - Yes. - What's that from? Is that barkers? - No, no, no, that's breeding and keeping Australian pythons. - Nice. Oh, so easy. You can just-- one grab, you got two in the bag. - Yeah. (laughing) - I mean, bad. - Bad, no, no, we didn't know. Bad. - Bad, Lucas. - Oh, man. - So pretty wild. - There's so much, natural history wise, I was not prepared, but I promise when you read it, you'll be blown away. (laughing) - Beautiful, I love that. - Yes, we should mention, it's coming along. - It's coming along, yeah. Natural history is pretty much done. And captive husbandry reproduction is pretty much done as well. We're getting to that point where it's finishing touches with photos and funny enough, the last thing that needs to be written is the introduction. (laughing) I've been putting that one off. And we still got to get morphs together, but we're getting there. None of us really care about morphs, so that also fell to last. But yeah, we're getting close, and there's such an awesome library of pictures that myself and the guys have pulled together. So it's gonna be awesome. - Yeah, we're gonna be great. - Yeah, we can't wait. - Even if you don't read, if you just flip through the pictures, you're gonna have fun. - It's still gonna be good. - Yeah. So pretty wise, is it very similar? What was blackheads as far as the process? Not necessarily the outcome. (laughing) - Or the outcome. - I would say so. I think, you know, just not just even specific to myself, but everybody seems to approach them pretty similarly and that you do cycle food, you cycle nighttime temps. And there's not really a whole lot more to it than that. And if there is, people aren't sharing. (laughing) But, you know, it seems pretty straightforward Python breeding recipe. I don't hear about people choosing to combat males a lot in captivity. - I think like, if you do, you should be careful 'cause they can't eat each other. I think that, well, if you're having success with the breeding without it. - Right. You know, it's like what? - I don't know. - I don't know. - I don't know. - I don't know. I don't know. - I don't know. - Yeah. Maybe I'll do that tomorrow. - Maybe that's what's missing. - Maybe that is. I mean, that'd be crazy. - It's a bullet in the gun and it's like, well, if you've done everything else and you really wanna keep kicking it up a notch, why not? - Right. I had two males shed and I like cut their sheds and toss them into everybody of their rival males cages. Those are now kind of getting old. So I'm probably gonna, when I clean, chuck 'em, but I have a male water python that's getting ready to shed. And I'm gonna throw that in the dunes cages and in the max cages. All of them, I don't think they can do that. (laughing) - Yeah. - But that's kind of what that is. Like I separated my black face, white lips, but my female shed. So I threw her sheds in the male's cage, just kind of get 'em riled up. So like send nice combat. It's all there or why not? - Yeah, 100%. - Okay. - Are they more seasonal in as far as that they're typically breeding at one time? 'Cause I know, I think earlier, somebody said that Ryan does it at a different time than you. So I'm just curious. - Yeah. Yeah, everything at Ryan's goes earlier than me. - Really? - I think that is just kind of different rhythms of our rooms and different local climates and things of that nature. In terms of walmas and blackheads, it does maybe seem like blackheads are a little bit more on their timeline, if you will. Whereas walmas, I have been able to kind of just pair without putting much thought into it. And they'll reproduce at different times each year, depending on when I chucked 'em together. Like I've had clutches from the same females weeks apart, depending on when I decided to do that. So they're almost a little bit more like ball python like in that respect where. - Gotcha. - Yeah, like you don't really necessarily. - Not sure, right? - Yeah, larger window with which it can work out in my experience. Like I wasn't gonna breed two of these walmas this year, but they were looking really thick and looked like they wanted to do it. So I did pair them late and they both just ovulated a few weeks later than they have each of the previous three years. - Okay. Have you ever thought about doing blackheads outside of the typical breeding window and have you, like what would be the trigger other than your saying that? - She's looking good. - Yeah, no, I'll pair them and keep them largely together besides feeding like until summertime. - Okay. - I'm not gonna cut them off because I think they should have done it by now. I don't throw up the white flag until July, August. - Yeah, I wouldn't quit on anything until around that time. - That was our last show. That's what we talked about. - I know that's the biggest time to quit. - Exactly. - Or it's just a window. - I do wonder if I tried to do it really though. - Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like sometimes maybe it's just the matter of the timing and maybe they're not going because, you know, I think sometimes at least for me, I think of this like, oh my God, there's this like super complex reason why they're not doing it and we're not giving them that whatever. And maybe it's just the timing. - Or it's like, it's me. - I appreciate it. I'm beyond help. - But it also be like you and just because you second guest at the mail wasn't in the cage or something like that. So I mean, it's also obviously observing your animals, knowing your rhythms and knowing yourself like that. But it is still hucking a dart at a dart board in the dark sometimes, which is like I think. But you know, it's, I always had one carmal female that she was the first to go. She's like before everybody, eggs were on the ground in March for her. And she was like eggs on the ground. She like kind of half-ass coiled them, let me take them really easily and then was looking for food right after. Like she knew her job and then was, and then spent a March, April, May, June, like everything just eating and got all the way ready to go for the next following year. So, but other coastal, I had one coastal she in late August. So it just depends on. when they're ovulating and making sure that the boys right there. Yeah, no, 100%. Yeah. So I guess with that in mind, I do tend to start pairing them like as soon as it starts to get a little bit cold in the fall, you know, November or whatever, but maybe maybe I shouldn't until later. I don't know. I see the way because like I was pairing. I didn't pair for winter. I let everybody win through in their own separate stuff. And then I started pairing during the warm up and I got locks, but now we're like, everybody's warmed up and everybody's starting to eat. And I'm seeing more locks and I'm not seeing the giant, gravied females. And I keep second guessing myself with the IJ because they were breeding like crazy. She swelled up like mad. She's not eating, but now I'm doing the whole, there's not enough lumpiness and largeness by her vent for her to be due next week or two weeks. She got two weeks. This is the bullshit that's in my head. So I'm like, it's not big enough. She's not big enough. And then like she might like shed, though, she did shed. That's why it's two weeks. So two weeks is 60. It's interestingly, I just, I was looking at that book, the picture for the woman that it scrolls up to the black edit section and this kind of, just I don't know, just the thought. It says that they did the reproductive reproductive effort that the clutches average 35% of the female's body weight. Damn. Yeah. Headiest egg was 172 grams. Blackhead eggs are ridiculous. Holy shit. I didn't realize they were that enormous. So he thinks that is there like, I know I heard Tracy Barker talk about this like olive python egg a long time ago. Oh, there's a radio about like making sure that the female was at a certain weight because of the fact that in order for her to successfully lay the clutch of eggs, but then she would just absorb them, right? If she wasn't going to like, if she or bind right. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Like it's not always the happy ending. No, like, yeah. Yeah, you don't want to do blackheads too small. Is it an age? Is it age and weight or is it more weight? I think that it's both. But like if you're looking at like a three or four year old animal that is not of sufficient size, I think the chance of binding is definitely higher. I guess true with anything. Yeah. It's the dodgy with small males. Sorry. Well, small male. There's a whole. That's fine as long as he doesn't long as he can hold the dome and run. Yeah. There's a lot. There's other things to be concerned about here. Like that's on it. Yeah. Although I talked to AJ yesterday and we were talking to booze. And apparently I need to be watching them closer. It's like, I don't. Uh oh. Apparently cannibalism just can happen. Like it just. So sometimes I think it's just a response. You know, I think it is. I think like if, uh, it's a reason why I don't typically be during the breeding season because I don't know, man. It was two times where I had snakes that my gelatin's did it and some jagged clutch that I was doing one year. And like, it's just like, just they just weren't there. And then there was like, so twitched and it was like, oh, you know, yeah, feeding has now become it takes to a treating has now. It used to be two hours get everything done. It is now I separated everybody yesterday at one o'clock. Oh my god. Then I thought and fed yesterday evening. Then I repaired today at one o'clock because I had to wait for the scent of food and everything else. And I checked to see who ate and who didn't eat this morning before work. Cause I could clear anything out to make sure there was no smell of food in the air. All the uneaten rodents or whatever had had been disposed of. And everybody had had almost a full 20 like a full good amount of time to digest. And I'm still nervous that someone's going to go downstairs and just go black. Like it's, but that's just breeding season, man. My thing is that it's a, it's a dick punch when two medium rats aren't fed or don't eat like they're not eaten. So I've followed the two medium rats. That's the biggest, that's the biggest thing I'm pissed about. It's like, you know, God could have been a burger and fries. Exactly. But I think with certain species, you kind of have to keep the food up. And, you know, I think it's one of those again, it's watching the animals and, you know, if she obviously doesn't, I don't think I've ever had a female that is on the fence of being too small, just all of a sudden, I'll be late, but I've heard it in like carpets and other things like that where it's like, I wasn't going to breed her till next year, but now she's as wide as a house. So I guess I'll give her a shot. So, right. Like you said, with warm as they're ovulating, you're like, why not? I don't know if you can really do that with a black head. Yeah. I mean, what a, what a pleasant treat that would be if they just did that for you. They just did it for you. Here it is. Yes. Thank you. If only, if only they were so kind. But they, they, they both are similar in terms of reproductive, like development in that they will, they will get really thick. They'll, they'll invert and lay belly up and it's, it's very obvious with both of them when they are gravied in the way that they position themselves. If you're, if you're unsure, it's probably not a good sign. So probably not. Yeah. Like other things will fool you. They won't fool you. Yeah. They go, invert breeding. But all right. So with egg boxes, because I know there is like some sort of black head egg boxes more art than science. And I guess the same comes with Walma, like, because we had heard, I think at one point, we're like wet substrate, dry substrate, wet substrate, more dry substrate, egg on a box with a pencil underneath it. So it's tipped to this much of an angle. The water rolls this way. And it's like, okay. Yeah. Is that pretty much it? Like you're making some sort of layer cake and then you're putting eggs on top of it. So. Yeah. So for me, I'm, I'm all in on layer cake. Okay. And it has not let me down. But I didn't start doing the layer cake until after the year. By the way, like, it is, it's what we're calling it. Yeah. Until after I had black head eggs, I didn't have the layer cake method when I was incubating black head eggs. If I did, I think it would have done really well because it's done perfect with every other clutch I've gotten since I started using it. Um, now my black head eggs, when I got them, you know, we've touched on it before. I think that most of the embryos were dead already. I don't think I messed them up, et cetera, et cetera. Um, but that being said, when they are dead and they are deteriorating, they form a discoloration window that leaks fluid that looks a hell of a lot like a drop of water fell on the egg. And I think that's where this myth came that a single drop of water falls on your egg. Well, no, it's it's chicken. No, they're in a situation. Yeah, they're dead and they start to ooze fluid, which beads at the top. And it looks like a water drop. This happened to me within 36 hours of the eggs being laid. I did not have time to kill them. And when I cut one open on day one and I cut a much moldier one open two weeks down the line, they're a little dime size embryos were exactly the same in both of them. They were dead. Um, so in terms of the, if you get a drop of water on them, they will die thing. I think that there's some, some backwardness to that. I think that when they are dead, it looks like water fell on them, but it's moisture from inside the leaving the egg. Um, a lot of people think that blackhead eggs need to be really dry. Derek obviously says that he sets his up on dry paper towel with no added moisture. Um, okay. And then other people like Casey Lazzick say that they do their blackheads exactly the same as they do their walmas and, you know, it's not a water list system. It's maybe not, not super damp, but, um, do your walmas the same way do your blackheads? Or do you do just kind of walmas like you do carpets? I do everything layer cake now. But I, that, that's the thing I haven't gotten any blackhead eggs to, to try with layer cake. Yeah. But layer cake did walmas that did carpets that did condros, it did diamonds. We did say what? that is right right? It did Indigo's well I'll help. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I I mucked it up. So yeah, like, yeah, for me, this is from Brett Bender and I don't know who he got it from, but I'm sure the chain is a million miles long. Brett Bender is a wise sage. So we'll accept the Brett Bender. So I have these boxes. I don't know how many courts they are, but they're made me like you get them. I am. It's like a shoebox. It's like what six or larger 15 larger than six maybe about 12 to 15. They don't come in 12s. It's like six 15. Good day, sir. No way. Because because of my stress, I'm going to tell you exactly what they are because I get them on Amazon. This is anything, but this is anything different from six or 15. I will never do. I'm searching my orders for bin. They have latch tops. So pretty secure. I like that. tops. Oh, no. Uh oh. What? I think it rid of my bin. Okay. Uh oh, no, no, no. Oh, no, it says seven liters. So whatever that is seven liter seven liters in courts or whatever. This is this is the box that I use. It's 236 ounces and seven liters. Anywho. And then I do about an inch of dry pearlite at the bottom. And then I do 280 grams of vermiculite with about 200 grams of water, not one to one. I do less than one to one. And then I do another inch of dry pearlite on top of that. I bury the eggs directly in the top layer of dry pearlite. The box has five holes drilled into the lid. And I cover all of them with duct tape. I burp the box and wipe condensation as needed over the course of incubation. And for the final two weeks, I remove the tape so the eggs can breathe. Okay. Interesting. Okay. By the way, seven courts is to be exact. Seven liters or seven liters is 7.39 courts. What? No way. But the box looks the same as my 12 court bins. You eat six courts? Really? Yeah. Where do you get these bins? Amazon. Course. See? Oh, okay. That is weird. I got you. Okay. It's like, it's, yeah, it's like wider than a six, but I like the latching. Oh, it's like the length of a six court, but a little bit wider. I like the wideness of a 15. Yeah. Oh, cool. I'm going to have to get some of these for like magic boxes. I'm going to have to get those for like, because that's the other problem is that when I get like olives, it's like a big bin. And it takes up like a whole shelf. Yeah. You guys ever think about like the box to the clutch? Like, yeah. Yeah. Totally. Okay. Do you remember when I used to like, 32 eggs and I'd cram them into like two little six courts, like end to end in all the walls? I'm like, God, I would never do that again. I think something really hurt the culture, right? There's this like, this is the egg box. And this is the size you use. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Well, I think that one of my favorite oxygen exchange. It does. That's right. One of my favorite things that we ever did was our conversation with Dale Denardo and him going into like, what does an egg need? Right. Right. And how important the oxygen component is in that. Yeah. So yeah, no, 100%. If you have a big ass clutch or a bunch of really big eggs relative to your box, you should space them out. Used to literally cram them in there and and touching the wall on top of each other all in there. And I have pictures of like one of my 32 egg clutches that I split between two boxes. Now I would probably just get a larger bin and just put them all together, but I don't want anybody touching the sides. I want spaces. I want big holes. I want breathing room. I want all that. And like my incubator is good because it's got the electric intact. So when it turns on, the fan that was in the fridge will spin and kind of push new air in, but still like, I got nervous about that with the olive pythons because there were such big eggs for I got a 15-court bin. And still those are such big eggs for those guys. Yeah. 100%. My wombas lay big eggs too. I mean, black eggs are enormous and known for that. But there's a lot of variation in the eggs that I've gotten from different wombas. One of them is like my smallest female, but she lays the biggest eggs. And her eggs are almost as big as the black eggs. They're they're huge. So that's kind of weird too. You know what doesn't have to do with this problem? Boas. Because they just have baby and then no egg. See? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. But you're you're discarding the whole time that she's fine. Just because you don't see. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Could still find a way to mess it up. Oh, so there's a horrible mess what it happens. Like, you know, it's not you. Yeah. Exactly. You know, I think it would be we're talking about eggs and getting eggs and thrown away after bed. But I thought it would be good to share this because sometimes they are still okay. You know, I mean, that's what that egg looks terrible. It does. And this is also like my my infamous hack job with the scissors. Look at the size of that that cut, huh? But he's there. You're too. A roof off. But here's the thing. He's there and you exposed him, but you weren't like come here. You this is what happens when your second breeding season ever, you accidentally get blackheads. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. But no, so so all of the eggs that had turned greenish bluish yellow like this and started growing really nasty fuzz mold. I eventually, you know, pulled them and cut them open and found a little tiny embryos that had not developed past the point of laying inside. And so this one I've just was watching the whole time because it was deteriorating, but it was deteriorating slower. There were two next to it by the end, you know, the last couple weeks that still looked pristine, but then this one was like that. I was smearing elmer's glue on spots where it started to discolor and leak fluid. And I was smearing neosporin on the color spots to try and control the the bacterial growth on the surface of the egg. Did you put a powder for mold? I didn't do any of that because this one wasn't getting fuzz mold as much as just bacterial growth. Okay. But and that's that's why this happened. It was 4 a.m. before work. And I was like I'm tired of watching this. I'm tired of watching his dead egg and pretending it's not dead. So I cut it open and it was live. And that was on day 42 if you all recall. Oh right. But she's great. She came out with a giant, unabsorbed yoke sack that luckily severed and she did not bleed out from it. And now she's a big beautiful girl. I hate that. I hate it when they don't have when they haven't absorbed and they just rip it and it's just bleeding and you're like oh god, oh god, oh god. Yeah. Luckily that didn't happen. It separated on its own. But it's sister had the opposite problem where it absorbed the whole damn thing and was like a lot of a little she's in there. She is now. Yeah. There you go. I'll take her. She's awesome. I mean she's like really spicy. She has a ton of attitude but the bands are so clean. That would pretty good. The black kid I would want because it looks like a like freaking zebra like a like I want the black and the white and the legit zebra. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like you legit not this stupid yellow thing I got over here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I I'm so happy. I kept both of those sisters and they'll both be ready in theory next year. Excellent. We'll see. I really wanted obviously to pair the dark one with the dark one on loan from Nick and see what what happens when you pair melanistic western to melanistic western but alas. Is that her story? sister, the melanist, oh, an added bonus. Yeah, exactly. He's, you see what he's doing. He's like, he's, he's, he's already selling me for next year's clutches. This is what he's doing. I see it. So. Yeah. Yeah. I went with blackheads. That seems weird. A terrifying situation. Like, but of course, we've already gotten like Owen with Boas and Owen with. And we insert thing here. So. You should have blackheads. Blackheads fit in more with you than a lot of the shit you have. That is probably true. That's like, he's probably right there. Yeah. I think, you know, it's funny. Realists I'm going through and like listening to the old MBRs and like why else would I listen to it other than have to edit it. But I want like it's, oh, and you were definitely scared to death about snake-seating snakes. Because I had, because I had, you were a bit too long. And I think that's why you never got blackheads. Well, because Chris had a Cali that had that happened to. I had a Cali that tried. And then I heard all the horror stories of Ring Python and then people mentioned blackheads. And it means a lot apparently. I was interested in and pop one like all of like pop ones. I'm sorry. At the door, right? At the door, thank you. I was getting ready to, I was interested in an at the door because I think I saw a pair of a show and I'm like, damn, it's kind of like an I'd hit, you know, all that other stuff. And then it was the his, like the horror stories of that. I think there had been a couple graphic images of retics tearing into each other. And I'm like, God damn no. And I was just terrified of watching a $3,000 snake eat and kill another $3,000 snake. So yeah, yeah, I've never had any of that in Aspedite. He's knocked on everything. But it can happen. Oh, dude, at this point, like I recognize that I've had carpets bite each other. I've had I lost a blackface white lib female to injuries caused by the male. Like I don't think it's the. This thing could eat like this one is way more. I think it just comes to again. Some species think more susceptible to others up a door ring python, self like that. But I also think it's the individual and also being careful. Like I do not feed anything with all my adults paired. Like next weekend, I have to separate everybody just to feed the babies and the jubis because I will not pair them together and thought out hopper mice because that's what it happens. What I'm not paying attention. So. Yep, smells in the air. If somebody says what's that smell and the other guy said what do you mean what smell? Yeah, yeah, 100%. So with your warmer projects, is there? Yeah, so much negative talk. Let's talk about how much six. That's how much orange can you put on a snake? Yeah, well, I'm just curious. Like what is your what's what do you envision as your like your perfect Walmart? What are you trying to do just intensify the arms like jungles? I want to I want to let the snakes teach me what the perfect Walmart can look like. That hell kind of a hit. I think that is that like that was. I know snakes to take me on the journey. Like, well, that's that's that's what it is. No, because what I don't know is what's possible. I do know is when they come out of the egg, which one looks the best to me. And I'm just going to keep pairing those. I mean, yeah, see what that turns into. But I mean, less nebulous. I definitely want, you know, vibrant colors. It doesn't necessarily need to be vibrant like tangerine orange. Luckily, that is what I'm producing a lot of right now. I also love when they have like a strawberry red like, you know, it just vibrant and colorful in whatever shade that comes. I love I also love really clean, perfect banding, which I think on my my boy corn that we are looking at earlier was is perfect. But for whatever reason, a lot of the times when you hit the perfect banding, they're lacking on the the belly color. If you get really great belly color, they're lacking on the banding. So getting those two things together and honestly, getting consistency with a look because they're so variable. I don't know the extent to which like consistency is achievable. Like you can pair two animals that look just like that and you'll get some weird like reduce pattern thing like there and you compare to reduce pattern and you get perfectly banded. Like they're pretty all over the place in what they throw. And so I think part of the long term thing with womb is to is just kind of better figuring out what they throw and why and how to plan around that. If there even is a way to to put it in a box. But yeah. I see what you say like the banding is almost perfect. It's like striping on a carpet except the tail. Like there's little yeah. And there's that dot there. And they turn into wise. Yeah. Yeah. So if I were to pick him, he's absolutely gorgeous. He's cool. He's cool. He's a cool guy. And then I have, you know, in addition to just breeding for looks, I also am really happy to be working with some some locality animals and some some different some different lines that I'm excited to preserve and work within that as well where I don't really care as much what they look like. It's just it's cool what they are. I don't know this from not looking at a lot of wild walnuts. Is there a lot of variability in the wild? I would say so. Yeah. Yeah. So one thing that I thought was really cool was I've been in contact with the curators at the Western Australia Museum over the past couple weeks. And got named Brad Marion who has some publications on walmas who works at the museum sent me the last known images of confirmed wheat belt, walma observations from 1989. And I think it was black. Really? I don't know how many of them were that way, but but that one was and talking about something that's really south, you know, ranging and and in a cooler climate. I thought that was really cool. Huh. Yeah, that'll be in the book. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. I'll show you guys later. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, but that to be said, I mean, those are those are probably mostly extinct, but even in stuff that's not extinct, yeah, there's a lot of variation. I've got pictures of near patternless walmas in the wild. Lots of different variation in color and pattern. The number of, you know, eyebrows markings, if you will, yeah, yeah, it's it's all over the place for sure. And in the same localities as well, the only ones that seem pretty uniform to me is the Shark Bay populations. I'll tend to have a look to them. Look the same. Yeah. Okay. It's interesting. So they have some variability in the wild. Cool. I don't know. I just think of a long one. It's always kind of like the same. Yeah, I'm going to pay attention now because it's kind of like, yeah, it's the same. You know what I mean? They're banded. They're orange. They're cream on the base. I mean, I think it's cool. Go scan some i-net. I bet you'll be surprised. See, I, I will. I'm going to have to because most of my time looking at carpets, but now I'm going to have to check out some walmas. Yeah. Sure. Yeah, it's it's it's interesting. Okay. I wonder if that has the, do you think that has to do with that morph that's out there that's black? Do you think that that's carrying over from that or I know there was some thought that it's blackhead mixed in with it or whatever. Well, we, I don't know. I think that those dark walmas are really interesting. I have no idea what's going on there, but it seems to be reproducible. And, and variable in its expression, which is always weird, you know, like I feel like whenever we're looking at something that is both heritable, but super variable. It kind of throws us all for a loop. And like, what are we looking at? Um, so I, I don't know what, what's with those or their origin because they're they're in Australia right? Yeah those ones. Yeah it's Kayla Higginson has a bunch of those animals out there but um oh but we do kind of have a little bit of an idea of what happens when you cross a black head on a WOMA because people have done it and so there will be a lot of pictures of those hybrids included as well and what was really fascinating about that is that they all have a black head one might expect there to be like some orange some orange some variation like a like a gradient like if you're mixing the two species they all had different black heads. So does that mean that that trait is dominant then right? I mean certainly like or it just overpowers the orange just uh I think that's what you mean by dominant though yeah right not necessarily in in a Mendelian sense but like yeah they're more powerful uh they yeah and and so again like what is that why did that happen and why is it so strong? I believe the folks that made those hybrids just recently did the first hybrid to hybrid pairing and all of those still had black heads. Interesting with a degree of orange chins but still black heads nobody came out with a WOMA head. I don't know very very interesting very interesting. Okay how many clutches are you shooting for this year of WOMA's? WOMA's I'll definitely have two clutches from the two girls that that regulated this week who were paired with my my best high orange boy and and have produced some really beautiful animals over the last couple of years and then I have the pair of I have two pairs of Tannamide Desert locality animals that were imported from South Africa that I am trying this year I think one of them looks really promising um which is a younger pair who I've been raising up over the past couple of years the other one is a 2011 pair that I acquired the the founding stock and they I don't know if they're gonna go um which is as fair they're old and have been traveling um and then these guys right here um my favorite males parents that I acquired um which were uh 2015 animals produced by Art of Elis I believe she is looking grounded as well so um three or four pair on the wall inside of things okay I got to mention close attention when they hatch out and show the pattern actually that um you know yeah yeah yeah yeah 100% um the the father of the guy I call Bozo my 2020 male who's really crazy high orange um is a reduced pattern animal and uh it's interesting that that's Bozo's dad because he's perfectly banded um I know a lot of people pursuing the reduced pattern thing that put reduced pattern animals together and you know like way more reduced than than this one even that one it doesn't transfer so it's weird um really excited for next year oh yeah I love that dorsal strike this guy has the the most vibrant orange belly too even at you know um 12 years old which is really cool so the one I got from Keith that was kind of like he called it like blonde or pastel type of blood yeah um look similar to that nice but not with the strike very cool yeah I'm I'm really excited for next year um because next year will be the first season that I'm pairing up my whole business yeah that's always the answer you start getting neck rolling in the right direction cuz it's like these are especially because my treasured holdbacks from my favorite pairing I ever did that female past after laying the egg so right it's truly the project lives on it lives in in these babies so um super excited super cool because then like in the next couple of years is when it's gonna be like an explode next it's like it's an excellent and and it's there's they I love that yeah despite the breeding issues that you have with the blackheads and despite you know lockers the issues get up my back even still it's a snake that's sold after both of them I think and that like I think that people are a little bit nervous about it can you give us a uh come back to center type of of speech that will uh get us you know that not to worry so much about those things no is it is it a matter of you can be a part of a project of figuring it out you know I think sometimes that's the lore of like uh things like bollins or you know uh scrubs or stuff like that it's like being part of the the people that try to I don't know to me that's the fun of herp to culture right this they you have this unknown what is it we theorize about it we you know we're we're on our lunch break during the day trying to think like what the hell is what's going on no 100% outside the box that's so much fun but you want to come up with an answer eventually yeah yeah I mean you made the case perfectly and in the you know in the blackhead realm like what is the pitch for working with blackheads in 2026 everything you just said we still really need to figure some things out um they're not super popular or consistently produced outside of a few people like Derek and others and so there's there's necessity um in in maintaining the stock and keeping that going um in the United States um and immense you know if you're in it for for breeding there's immense potential to if we can produce them consistently chase down different looks they're incredibly variable um and if you care about more if you can get your exam things you can get your tiger stripes you can you know do this that and the other thing um if you don't care about breeding they're incredible to work with and look at and they're one of the most unique pythons on earth they're one of the most um just strange and uh perplexing but also um majestic and impressive um and and I feel like they they have the the wow factor just aesthetically of a venomous snake without the danger um I think both blackheads and walmas can give you a little bit of an elapid vibe aesthetically without needing to deal with that um and why work with walmas in 2026 uh if you don't care about breeding all the very same reasons they make incredible captives they're so endearing and um dare I say cute um and if you are in breeding they desperately need selective breeding attention we have too many ugly walmas and um we could do better great yeah yeah yeah that's that's that's great that's that's good job yeah yeah and you'll have fun and we're nice people yeah we're too far oh yeah you're right not everybody's nice people yeah almost double landing yeah yep well I'll talk to you cool cool cool all right um anything else that do you wanted to head on before I don't know when you got anything um so what pairings are you expecting this year because you said you kind of were all over the place with the various walmas like yeah the walmas and then how many I know you said potentially you're trying all four of your blackheads yeah yeah so um with the blackheads the eastern pair um who produced when I was on tour and all those eggs died I I keep trying them again because uh the males of 2011 and I don't know you know how how long he'll be a good breeder but he he's a great breeder now she just won't ovulate and then yeah the three western pairings which going into the season I was going to use my my 2020 male with the two girls from Ryan and then I was gonna use the melanistic nick mail with my proven female that produced a melanistic. - Melanistic, right. - Yeah. - That was the plan. And of course, you don't want to pair two animals that are on loan from other people, because then you have no stake in it. - You know what? Why did they need you? Like, that's happened before where I think I ended up pairing animals, Eric had given me. And I'm like, I don't know why I'm doing this. Like, it was, yeah. - Oh yeah, I remember that. You're like, you could have bred. - But you could have done this. And you're like, damn it. Who like, damn, damn. I'm like, these are both for me. - Right. 100%. Yeah, I guess there's like still value in doing the breeding and maintaining the animals, but neither of them belong to you. So maybe you get like one egg or something like that. - I did some of the work. So I, you can see the patch. - You have to work that out. - Yeah. So that was the plan, but then that guy died. So now it's 2020 male versus the world and we'll see. - They've drunk 2020 male, but then how many Walmart pairings also? - Oh, I did touch on that. - Yeah, it just does. - Yeah, it was. - Okay. So we're good. So we got all that plus all the other things in your menagerie of sanity. - Yes, I feel really good about the antiregia stuff and I feel very encouraged with my ruffy pairing, which would be a new endeavor for me. - There you go. Like it is. - She's off-rooted and looks real thick. - Antiregia have what? You know, spit the wheat belt. - Wheat belt, semis, broom, semis, and pygmy bandits. - Gotcha. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And even though it's an adult steric, we are absolutely. - I hope that you breathe in this year. Well, that was the idea. - We are absolutely absolutely to this man. Like we are like, you know, this plan all along. And this point, at this point, you open up the door. He goes, "Will you cute old men give me a little bit of advice?" And we go, "Well," and he goes, "It doesn't matter, slams the door." Like it's, yeah. - False. - Shut up you. I am God. But it's, this all. - And then of course we'll bring in the spring stuff and I'm going to try for you diamond pairings. - Nice. - Brought in some adult cypress creek stuff. - Nice. - Which would be really cool. - Would be cool. - Yeah. And so last year, diamonds were locked and doing their thing here in March because when we keep them outside, they start to get really cold around October. So I brought them in in March because it had been. - Guile. - They've been cold. - Yeah, for a bit. - Like winter doesn't need to last forever. So I'll probably be doing that in about a week or two. We'll get together with Alex and we'll figure it out. - Yeah. - He's got the weird shit too. It's like, "Send India" is the thing. - Oh yeah, the "Send India." - Yeah, see? Like, there was always that weird one where it's like, "Oh yeah." And then the green tree pythons were like, "I don't know." - Oh yeah, the green tree pythons. She ovulated in April last year. So. - Jesus. - If she's on a similar timeline, hopefully I start seeing something in the next month or two. - You could make the battle condo if you wanted to. - Just throwing that out there. You could do it. He could be the chosen one. Yeah. - That's another thing I'm excited about next year is my man of quarry stuff from Ryan will probably be ready. - Yeah, but we'll use for the battle condo. - I started asking a certain somewhat about certain snakes that were in that box. - The green magic on a stick box? - Yeah. - No. - No. - Yeah. - I'm looking on it again. - I'm going to do it again. - Well, if you want to have the Australian pythons, even though it's not Australian. - But it's the closest you can get. - That would be your room. - The same species I guess. - Right? - Yeah, beard is. - Yeah, it would be a ruler of the one to do it. - And who's the aru? - Who's your dog? - Who does the roof. - Who's your dog? - Yeah. - There's also a, oh yeah, there's more. - Ryan, young. - And there's a certain other person too. - Oh, shit. - That's. - It does a ruse. - She was just on a podcast. - Oh. - Lisa? - Oh, Lisa. Lisa. - Yeah, Lisa. - You know the worst part about me not realizing that is that? - There you are. - Wow. - Well, the female. - I'm so happy. - I'm so happy for Lisa. Yeah. - Yeah, I remember. - When she picked that snake up, I was working at GX3 in Sacramento and she was like, "I'm gonna get babies and I'll give you babies." And then, yeah, five years later she freaking did it. And she gave me babies. - There you go. - Yeah, I really, I quite enjoy her passion she has with the, those, well, any snakes that she breeds but like in particular, like, I am, like they bring her a lot of joy and, - 100%. - And then, me. - Joy. - Yeah. - I am preparing this. - The demon that she sent me. The female demon that she sent me. - She told me she picked the meanest one for you. - Yes. - Don't worry. - She did. - Like it is. - Oh, but I put my male blackface a little bit larger and he already has tailed the female. So what I'm doing is I guess making horrible animals. Like, I don't know why. - It's supposed to be a collar. - It's terrible. I'm going the other direction. - Oh dear. - Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. - And we do know it is heritable. So, yeah. - Yes, he is. - Hopefully I'll have just like a clutch of just horrible, horrible, inky black creatures. So. - Thank you for your service. - You're welcome. - Listen, the golds, my, my, the golds that I produced, my cat, the born and bred golds, are very handleable, very chill, very nice. They go that way. So clearly, the blacks had to go this way so that I could have, you know, go towards of the white lip. Yeah. - I want to be a pair of calm golds. - If they do. - If they do. - If you got it, if you've been in the years because my trio of the pair that I produced plus the, the captive from Ryan, they're moving up into actual cage cages this summer, because they're getting too big. Like they're on small rats, but I'm keeping them on small rats because if I put them on mediums, I have nowhere for them to go. - No, it's soon, soon they will be going. And then in a couple of years, I actually have a chance to try to get, I guess they'd be F3s because their father is a captive born and bred. So they are technically F2s, even though their mom is a wild caught. - They're F1 and a halfs. Yeah, I guess like they're, it's weird because like they're, they're, they're outcrossed to F2s, which doesn't make any sense. So yeah. - Cool. - So obviously everybody probably knows where to find you, but I'm reason we don't, we have a new listener or listeners. - He's got good, warmas and blackheads list on a morph market. I know. - That's true. Even though I haven't been able to produce blackheads lately, I actually do have 1.2 available at the moment. The male is 100% het for exanic B and both the girls are 66% posets produced by Jim Sargent. So yeah, if you're interested in walmas or blackheads, I can help you at this very moment, even without eggs. www.centralianexotics.com. And hopefully I'll have a book for you soon. - Cool. I expected signed with love. - I was signed with something silly. - Yeah. - All right. - Yum. - I wrote in my complete carpet too, like my dearest Mackinwookie. That must now be with me till I die. Like it is. - I'll have to think about what I can do. - Dearest Mackinwookie. - Yep. - Why are you? - You love Mackinwookie. - Time. - Yep. - Yeah. Thank you guys. I know we do a lot of shows together, but there's a reverence to a true MPR and it's always a pleasure. It feels different. It's different. There's different smells in the air. - You want something. He's trying to butter us up. Like, yeah. - No. - It's fine. - It's like, harpsicholpies, spring training. But when we do one of these, I feel like it's the world's easiest. - I will say that corralling the two of you in an MPR setting is much easier than a carpets and coffee. Where it is, like, hurting cats. - I think I have to be a little more professional over here. - This is a, you know, the core. You must wear a tie when you come here, damn it. - Yep. - Yep. - Thank you. - Well, yeah, always a pleasure. And that's the luck this season. For us, we have some things in the works. - Yes, we do, damn it. - Good now, but, yeah, stay tuned. Yeah, yeah, actually a couple things in the works. Lots of things. We have so many irons and so many fires I've forgotten about. That's a little bit. So yeah, if you want to check us out, you can, you know, the socials, you know, the things. We have a patron if you want to join that and pretty soon we're going to have a new store for merch. Yes. But anyway, that's all. Again, you close it out. Thank you. Like that way for 13 years. But um, see yeah, uh, check out all the websites. Um, for me, rogue-wraithalls.com and also the social media. And now it's time to start poking around because very soon eggs can be hitting the ground. And hopefully we'll get some good stuff coming. Uh, that way, uh, yeah, that's what we have for everybody this time. So thanks everyone for listening, but we'll catch everybody back here next time for some more Merlead Python radio. Good night.