Wole Soyinka

this BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Host thanksgiving with industry leading quality standards from whole foods market. There are no antibiotics in their meat department ever. So carve up turkey and spiral cut ham with peace of mind. Shop organic sides like stuffing mix and cranberry sauce from 365 brand. And guess what? All their delectable pies are made with no high fructose corn syrup. Gourmet thanksgiving flavors with the quality you want only at Whole Foods Market. It often starts with a question. What were lines doing in York in the third century? Why was Jeremy a lonely snail? Then we search for answers. It's one of the first times you read that you consistently see someone painting teeth. I know that sounds bonkers. If I was going to define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure. As I was doing the research for the programme, my jaw just dropped further and further down. In our time, it's a world-class seminar every week. Watch the discussions unfold and explore over a thousand conversations in our archive. I'm Misha Glenny and every week I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world. In our time, listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Coffee? Love a cup of tea. I have tea too. Tea for me, please. Welcome to a special edition of the World Book Club podcast. I'm Rithala Shah and this month we're discussing a hundred years of English Penn, the influential pressure group which helps to support and campaign for the release of writers unlawfully imprisoned around the globe. English Penn are marking their anniversary with a year-long programme of events which culminated in a three-day festival at the South Bank Centre in September. On World Book Club to mark the centenary we're delighted to be joined by the Nobel Prize-winning writer Wale Shoyinka who has a very personal connection with Penn more about that in a moment. Wale is also just published his first novel in half a century. Chronicles from the land of the happiest people on earth is a satire of modern Nigeria. Welcome to World Book Club Wale Shoyinka or perhaps I should say welcome back. You're the first writer we've ever had on the programme for a second time. On the last occasion we spoke to you about Ake, your memoir of childhood and this time we have the excitement of your first novel in 50 years. Now you're on the line from Lagos, it's a city with a world-class reputation when it comes to traffic. How was your journey? In fact I waited for my right right fortunately and I had a backup so I jumped into the backup and here I am. So everything is normal. So you had a backup plan and it worked. I tend to do that all the time. I've learned my lessons the hard way over the years. I think most Nigerians do that. Wonderful understanding how it all works delighted that you battled your way through to join us for this celebratory edition of World Book Club. Let's begin by talking about that centenary of English Penn. It's an organisation Wale with which you've had a long connection. In 1967 you were detained without trial by Nigeria's then-military leader, General Yakubu Goan, for daring to intervene as a peacemaker during the Civil War over by affron secession. At the time the presidency of Penn was held by the American playwright Arthur Miller. Now he wrote a letter calling for your release which reached the general via a businessman we're told and we're also told that General Goan asked if Arthur Miller was the same man who'd married Marilyn Monroe which of course he was and on hearing that the general agreed to release you. It is a great anecdote but is it true? What was Penn's actual involvement? A great anecdote indeed but purely fascist. My release and the reaction of the Edelstead at the time had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Arthur Miller was married to Marilyn Monroe. But it's a terrific story. So what did happen? What was Penn's involvement? Oh there was no question that Arthur Miller, President Penn, wrote on behalf of a detained writer, Paul Wallachenko, and appealed in the name of Penn International for his release. And it is true that in the discussion you know the one learnt that Arthur Miller was married to famous Mary Monroe. And it was quite a while. It was several months after that that I wish you. You were though imprisoned for more than two years. I want to play you some archive that was recorded on your release. Mr. Wallachenko, it's nice to have your back with us after some time. Well you know you are a university lecturer, a dramatist, a playwright of four-class and not in any way politician. The only thing that got yourself involved in politics in any way before the authorities took away some 26 months ago. Of course I got myself involved in what was happening. I don't know whether you call it politics or not. I don't consider war politics. I believe war is a human problem and I'm a human being. You're quite right to say I got myself involved. But you're right to say I'm not a politician. How do you feel about your release from detention after that 26 months? My feeling at the moment is one of amazement. That means that it happened at all. This really is my only feeling. I knew I would be released sooner or later. Either that or I would be quietly done away with in some obscure cell. It was one of two things. So one of them has come to pass and I suppose it's justified. What of your career in the university and the drama world and all that? Well that is my immediate concern. We have lost so much time on many projects which we had both theatrical and film. So many things have completely been ruined and damaged and as far as I'm concerned my immediate business is to put all that right. Well it does that bring back memories good or bad? Both. In other words from my recollection I'm listening to that. By the time I was released I'd become reconciled to the outcome of the war. It also to the fact that that might not be my solitary unpleasant experience of political involvement which I got myself. In other words I just felt well let's let me try and brush that aside and get my so back to the mainstream of events at that particular time. That's what I remember clearly most by the time I came out. Judging by your memoir the man died imprisonment was a harrowing experience. You spent long periods in solitary confinement. How did it shape you? They developed kind of resilience when I was in solitary confinement. They developed the various mechanisms with which I kept my mind healthy because that was the greatest danger. Then I kind of bitterness, quite frankly, I bitterness about that experience and especially the lies which were told about me when I was in prison would actually resurrect some very very bitter memories and show you say sort of overwhelmed the stoic or volitioning that they developed in prison. So it's always been a mixture. It was a strange experience 22 months all by yourself with the orders instructed not on pain of the severe penalty not to be talked like a human being to another beyond shoving my food in there and going away and then you had to develop devices to keep yourself sane. Let's just put it that way and so that strengthened me in many many ways. We heard you saying you thought you might be quietly done away with. That's a huge mental burden. That is very very present. That is a very real danger. But again, what could you do? You were in this little compound which were they condemned, those condemned to be executed were kept before they were marched to the gallows at the time. I just say, well, that's not prophetic. It was a very bizarre period and very difficult to write about. You said that the wallet that emerged was a stoic character, but how did it influence your commitment to the written word spending that time in solitary confinement in imprisonment? Oh, the written word was very important and one of the mechanisms was staying alive was to find ways of scribbling things down mostly on the wallet paper and also the inside of cigarette packs. I used to save the inside foil paper which is foil on one side and paper on the other side and develop very tiny writing on those precious little surfaces and then rule them up and hide them in crevices and also devise eventually ways of communicating messages to the outter world. The most cunning creature ever invented in the world is a prisoner in solitary confinement. Fascinating. Well, enough questions from me. I I've talked too much already. It wouldn't be well book club without your questions. So let's have the first one. Malabat Seymacy is in Poliquane, South Africa. So how important has Penn been to your life asked Malabat Seymacy? Well, there's an instinctual response to any source, whether it's institutional, individual, even national, which has assisted you in very difficult times. It's instinctual to respond by becoming even more deeply associated with that organization. And it's not a question of wanting to repay, no, no, no. It's simply that you understand, you learn more about that organization, and you associate with the aims, as long as those aims correspond to your own. I must pick an exception to that, by the way, because there is yet another organization, which is alleged to involve itself in ensuring my release. This is supposed to be the CIA. It's the most bizarre allegation. And it actually is a more fascinating story than well-it showing how you released by the husband of Marilyn Monroe, but far more sinister, of course. But as far as you're aware, well, I know involvement by the Central Intelligence Agency, which is obviously as a U.S. organization. And not to this slide, as I'm aware of. Well, let's stay with Wallishing for now. And let's move on to our next question. It's from Louis de Boine, he's in Paris, and he says, "English Penn is 100 years old. There's still clearly a need for this organization in today's world, certainly regarding the freedom to express oneself without fear in France today. What do you see as its main task in the modern world?" Well, the main task has already been named, and that is to create the environment for genuine and committed literary creativity, irrespective of an ideology, whether it's a secular ideology, or a theoretical ideology, and I don't care what. And this is what I believe is unique about N. And of course, through act on behalf of its members, and even its non-members who pursue the same occupation, which Penn was formed to keep the literary profession alive despite all political power, meanness, narrowness. And in these times, especially, of theocratic fundamentalism, Penn has its work put out. Louis de Boine in Paris, I hope that answers your question. Let's hear now from Peter Eze, who's in Nigeria's Kaduna State. So Peter is asking that the voice in your writing feels effortless, but was it difficult to find that voice again in your writing after your release? Now, you asked me a very difficult question. And I think I went through, after the initial exit from prison, I think I went through certain periods of ambivalence, when I honestly asked myself, do I really want to continue with this particular path of such political involvement? Writing, there's no question. This is my immediate, this is my life. I knew I would always write. I couldn't help writing. In prison, I wrote and I smuggled one or two things out. So that was not a question. But the question really believing in the power, the potential of what you were doing, was it real? Things like that. I think that. I'm also in prison, I asked myself questions like that. But ultimately, since I was committed writing, and you know, other way of expressing myself, of being myself, of being at peace with myself, it was inevitable that I would continue to, at least insist on my voice and assist others also in exerting their own voices. Very interesting. Well, let's talk more about your writing. And in particular, this new novel, Chronicles from the Land of the Happiest People on Earth. Although you've been writing continuously, Wolle, this is your first novel in half a century. It's an expansive book, which, at its simplest, is about friendship and family. But it's also a rhyme at times quite shocking tale of greed and immorality, religion and tradition and dubious political deal-making. Let's hear your description of how corruption and brutality are part of everyday life and Igerians. And this reading begins with a description of how the military interacts with ordinary people. Wolle, let's hear the extract. Okay. Sometimes a victim of military amoeu prop, in uniform a lofty, it made no difference, seemed to believe in safety in numbers, and all it took was for even a low ranking sergeant to take offense at another motorist, who perhaps refused to give way to his car, a mere bloody civilian. Nevermind that the latter had the right to win. And on the spot educational measure was mandated. Guns bristling, is accompanying detail trained to obey even the command of the mere twitch of the lip, dragged out the hapless driver, unbuckled their studded belts whipped in senseless, threw him in the car boot, or on the floor of the Escobarne, and took him to their barracks for further instruction. The wretch sometimes created a problem by suffocating all boot, which led society to develop structures, and neutralizing such inconvenience. The police's favorite execution site was a roadblock, legal, or moonlighting, perhaps a recalcitrant commuter or passenger bus driver, but refused to collaborate in providing a bribe on demand, or insulted the rank of the demanding officer with a derisive son. And it did not have to be the original offender, but some two-no-grammers-pouting public defender were intervened on behalf of the potential source of extortion. The outcome was predictable. Victim or good Samaritan advocate instantly joined the statistics of the fallen from accidental discharge, but often it was anything but accidents had become infrequent and unfashionable. Offender, to be expected, was that the frustrated, throth-lipped police pointed the gun deliberately at the head of the unbelieving statistic and pulled the trigger. Thank you all there. There's some very dark comedy playing out there. I want to bring in Abba Musa Idris who telephoned in his question from Kano in Northern Nigeria earlier. Hello, Professor Schoenka. I am Abba Musa Idris from the ancient city of Kano in Northern Nigeria. I'm a writer and a poet. I present three English literary programs on two Kano radio stations. The pain, mind your English and voice apparatus. Here is my question. What inspired you to write your latest novel Chronicles from the Land of the Happiest People on Earth? Many thanks indeed and goodbye. One of the reasons, of course, is embedded in extract, I've just read, and it's hard to do with the, it's only one word for it, humiliation to which my simply and society have been subjected to so many years on the military rule. And when I say humiliation, I mean really humanization and this is an example. I just the military, I just the police. Naturally, it is anybody who happened to be in power during both the so-called democratic spaces and the militarized spaces. And unfortunately, I watched society, the victims themselves sometimes act inhumanly, become in effect the very things that had degraded them as human beings. In other words, the transfer of naked power, the bullying mentality. We actually saw the humanism of this society get more and more degraded. So the devaluation of human beings, I'm talking about chance killing, the value of life, ritual killings, the sadistic turn of even armed robbery, when it was not sufficient, just to rob, but had to rob, be great, rape, etc., etc. Then the kidnapping, which began, the kidnapping, the turning of our own youth into new slaves, in new slave market, in which youths were captured, kidnapped, in school, traumatized, taken into forests, and then the civil society had been invited to come and buy back their own, their own relations, their own children, their own uncles, etc., etc. So it had been whaling up in me for quite a while, and of course this novel was in the first expression of it, expressed it in numerous articles, lectures, all over the place, challenged the politicians to do something about this, spoken about the role of the so-called religious sector of society, the so-called priest. And their own role, their own participation, whether in terms of blessing the guns of the armed robbers before they went out, or just collaborating in some way, in other words, the unwholesome whole picture, it was only the format of the novel that I felt would contain the portrait of a nation which I believed was a human society. That portrait is complex, it's highly critical. Fizer Khan in London has a question, I suspect, lots of us want answered. The novel, she asks, the title is Chronicles from the Land of the Happiest People on Earth. How did you decide on the title? Who the title decided itself, and it arose from my encounter with one of these Gallup Bulls which placed Nigeria among, if not at the very top, of the Happiest Nations in the world. And I said to myself, is this a joke? Is this my tab, joke, is this some kind of mockery when entire people, what I never is this. So suddenly, there it was, I recollected this Gallup Bull and said, "Ah, my title has been handed to me on a platter of happiness." There are some lovely contrast there which will become apparent to anyone who hasn't read the novel as soon as they do. Let's stay with the novel. I think Molabatsi Maserdi in Poliquane in South Africa is still on the line, Molabatsi. Hello again, the question is, what did you leave the publication of your novel, on the current nearly half a century? Molabatsi is asking, well, a shanker, why did it take you, I think, half a century to come back to the novel? Well, I have never pretended to be a novelist, and basically a dramatist. And the period, this hiatus between one prosfiction and another, was not really for me hiatus. No, I was just doing what I preferred to do during that period. And as I explained, it got to a point where I just knew that I had to go back to that format to contain this tumult, which calls itself a nation, contradictory nation, melodramatic nation, and seemingly lacking in collective self-awareness and so on. That's a nature of creativity I'm afraid, so it's difficult to explain. But always remember that I consider myself primarily a dramatist, not a novelist. Oh, there's your answer, Molabatsi, very interesting. Let's head back to Nigeria, and John Lighthouse Oyawali spoke to us earlier from Otta. Professor Shuyumka, fellow Nigerian, John Lighthouse Oyawali here. You haven't written many novels as it appears, plays and poetry are the genres you much rather prefer. I'm curious, especially as a much younger person struggling to go through writing a novel, what was the process like writing crime calls of the happiest people on earth? Thanks. Actually, I was personally also fascinated by the process I must confess. First of all, go back a little and tell you how I even came to be able to embark on this thing which had been charming in my mind. I had to get away, first of all, from Nigeria. I needed at least a week, two weeks if possible just to get away. I solute myself completely from Nigeria, refuse to even listen to news about Nigeria. We had to just get away clean my mind completely and then try to bring back what had been turning in my mind. And there was fortunately a young colleague of mine lent me his cottage and outside that car by the seaside where I was in total isolation. And so I had bridged that waterfall with him being up in the back of my mind and I was able to at least feel I was being lucid. I was now in a community with my characters. After that, it was easy enough to work in snatches. You know, a day here and I, et cetera, in a plane and that proceeded for about a year, continue for about a year and then came in Covid. And I was locked down. And so I was totally isolated as me and my characters for about two, three months, continuous. Now, the danger with that is that these characters then tend to take on a life of their own and go in or kind of on predicted directions. They kept doing things which I wasn't quite ready for. And then to make matters worse, I'm not a very computer savvy person. The material then sometimes got away from me. And when you went back sometimes, I don't know if you have that experience. You resumed, unfortunately, at the wrong version and it will look very peculiar. And so you would go along on that limb for quite a while. Because I should see it's quite massive. And then you lose track. You have to backtrack. Believe me, it was hell. It was not funny at all. If you are young, that means you are more computer savvy. That's just one lesson, one advice which I give you that always print out the material as you proceed. It's nothing like actually viewing this and cutting them based where necessary. Whereas with the computer, you are trapped. In many ways, the computer tries to organize you. It's a monster. Above all, learn to give the characters their head. Let them lead you from time to time. You're going to try to force them to heavily and try to regiment them to heavily. And you get along with them. Especially if you have no other companions with you, you build up a little community of your own. John Lighthouse, I think a lovely deep answer to that question about the process of writing and how a book, the genesis of a novel. Chronicles is a long novel. I've alluded to some of the themes. But Sarah King in Miami in Florida asks, what's the main message you wanted to communicate in Chronicles? Low message at all. I just wanted to present a portrait of a nation that has lost its way. It's lost its humanism. And it's losing the sense of shock. A nation in which the long before COVID came along with a new normal. I've been said that at the same time I felt an obligation to insert into this seemingly bleak picture, the positives, the struggle to make something out of them or us. And also the resilience of people. I hope people have talked about humorous aspect of it. As long as you have your sense of humor, even if it's a dark sense of humor, you are on the road to survival or retrieval of your humanity. So no message. No. Just an exposition. That's what I at least I believe I was doing. My favourite character in the novel, Wale, is a preacher called Papa Davina. He's possibly better described as a somewhat shady businessman. I'm going to ask you now to read to us how Papa Davina sees himself and his calling. Papa Davina had only one commodity on offer. Spirituality. All it required was creative packaging. And that was his forte. nothing went waste. His apprenticeship, albeit a short-lived spell in publicity and marketing, moved to answer the long awaited call. Such were the foundational stories upon which the launch pad for Chris Slumberbad was laid. The banner on the church entrance read for ease of pronunciation ecumenica. Uschyligraphy also carried a hint of ancient Greek adding to the mysteriousness. He labeled his departure from Kaduna the first exodus, hired fleets of canoes to ferry worshippers to his island church. The service began as a free ride which soon drew worshippers from mainland churches to its island Buzum. A part of the banner introduced modest fares, soon he owned the canoes, a fleet multiplied. Next they were no longer conveyances for the prophesied of ecumenica, but a commercial transportation system controlled by the site. It ferried market men and women, schoolchildren, workers. Gradually the site raised its own soccer team. From soccer it moved to festivals. A cano regatta, a term into a minifiesta. A trickle of tourists began swelled into a facized dream then became a torrent. A part of a banner had found disnish. It was halfway home to the national hub of happiness. A wonderful breezy self-confidence on display there, which is shot through with a heavy dose, I think, of cynical exploitation. Let's hear again from Pfizer Khan, from London, who asks the exploitation of religion and faith plays a big role in chronicles. You've previously spoken quite positively about traditional Nigerian practices. What's changed your mind and can you elaborate on the link between religion and power? It was something which I discovered quite early in life. I began to see the exercise of religion. I understand I distinguish between religion and spirituality, genuine spirituality. I began to see the link between religion and domination of religion very often is practiced with an eye on dominating a constituency, exerting power over others, undermining their volition, their sense of irrational, even their need for a pragmatic approach to a very real material existence. I saw religion become one of the first growing businesses in Nigeria and incidentally in other countries like South Africa, Zimbabwe, in many parts of the African continent and of course outside the United States, in Europe. We had the cults in Scandinavian countries. We considered themselves religions, we were nothing more than just cults, cults for exercising power over others, including economic power. To such an extent that some really cunning, clever and manipulative priests could get individuals to sign over their entire possessions, their wealth, their pensions and just submit themselves to these, to these quote-unquote spiritual leaders. That is where one even has a measure of empathy with those who are as cynical as Papa Davina. He makes no bones about his own. He's in there. It's business. But there are some really sinister religious leaders who enslave. There's no other word for it, who enslave humanity. But of course, again, let's stress that there are genuine religious leaders who believe passionately and who are very faithful to their followers. We know the role, which some very positive religions have had in liberation, liberation theology. We know what religion had for blacks in prison, for instance, the Nation of Islam, what reformative and combative effect it had in the struggle of the black people in the United States. So in Nigeria, religion in many instances become a sinister force. What's just a coni in East Africa is a sinister aspect of religion. A good moment in a sense, this conversation about religion and your concerns about the way in which it's been monetized, to bring in Daniel Pozymanski, who's also here in London. He asks, "You portray a very pessimistic picture of people in Nigeria and the endemic corruption in this novel. Do you feel as pessimistic in real life as you portray in chronicles?" "Pessimism, optimism, afraid terms which I abandoned ages ago. I didn't ask to be born into this country. I just found myself in it and that's why I very often stress that I don't consider myself a patriot. I feel committed to people, to the humanity, inside this nation's space. And that's about all." Let me bring in Onayongo Makagutu, who's in Nairobi, Kenya, with our next question. And Onayongo asks, "What would you say is the role of Nigeria in shaping African unity?" "I know what I would like the role of Nigeria to be. I used to use an expression that the African continent would find itself on an axis whose focus is in the Congo, one end of the axis Nigeria, the other end South Africa. And I used to use that image in my optimistic pace at this continent, looking at the resources." "Well, today I really don't know. I see all of us in deep, deep trouble, whether we're talking about South Africa, because what's going on there, corruption. With Nigeria, where the petroleum resources have been found in the Cayman Islands, in the United States, in Switzerland, the word we use this is just potential. The potential is that? Yes. So it's potential, potential, potential. That's why we're eating and drinking in these days. Potential is a lovely optimistic idea. A big question mark, though, perhaps over the question of African unity. Let me bring in Philip Zapkin, who's on the line from Pennsylvania in the United States. "Hello, William. My name is Philip Zapkin. I'm good, and yourself." "Yes, David." "Well, I'm an assistant teaching professor of English at Pennsylvania State University. I'm a big fan of your plays. I'd like to know about the challenges that you face as an author from the Global South, who's become famous in the Global North. In particular, if it's difficult for you to remain true to your own experiences in Nigeria without playing into some of the false stereotypes that people in the US and Europe have about Africa and Africans?" "It's a struggle. One of the worst things that can happen to an individual is to lose his or her entitlement to anonymity. It's very easy to lose oneself, I think, but fortunately, I'm a very egotistical person. I need to tame theme." "Well, let's stay with that theme. Philip, thank you for raising it of authenticity. The question of geography as well, and the part it plays in your writing, has cropped up several times. Let's hear from Afiniki Silas Bosan in Abuja in Nigeria, who telephoned in her questions area." "Hello, Alayshayin Kai. It's Afiniki Silas Bosan from Abuja in Nigeria here. I recently read Aki and I had a good laugh at so many portions. It all seemed so familiar, even though from a different time and space. My question for you is this. When I read the biographies of popular or acclaimed Nigerian writers, I noticed that they often grew up, studied, or currently lived in western countries. In your view, do you see this as an indication that our stories are framed and presented in terms of a western influence worldview? Do the backgrounds of these authors make their stories about Nigeria less authentic to any degree?" "So, Afiniki is essentially saying, are novelists that are not based in Africa? Are their stories less authentic?" "Well, my answer to that is that it'll be a mistake for any writer to say, I can only write about my immediate zone of belonging, of identification. Even inside, we still meet the rest of the world. And the world is growing smaller and smaller through communication. And I would urge writers not to worry too much about pristinism, which is sometimes switched by internationalists. I think people should just write about what is closest to their mind." "Well, you said a word pristinism." Yes, I was referring to those who sometimes complain about writers who embark on the themes which are outside So we say quote unquote their villages. Let me put it that way. I used to call them Neutasianists who believe that African literature if it's not about skirts and drums and the feuds and the rituals It's it's not African literature Our next question has been sent in by Adnan Al-Abar from Kuwait Hello, Mr. Sonka. I am Adnan Al-Abar from Kuwait and I'd like to ask you this question I find that your writings and in particular your play the line in the jewel which is one of my favorites So, it was us to the fact that no matter how much knowledge and wisdom we gain from globalized or universal values We should never forget that we live among people who are general rooted to our culture The world has real people in it and not characters of a play and this is one of the great lessons one can find in all of literature But this is what worries me. The more I read in contemporary international literature, the more I am convinced that literature all around the world is converging to a formula where the author aims at activism and scoring social points That is superficially covered with native garb instead of reaching wisdom and true understanding or making works of genuine beauty Do you think there is hope for literature in the near future? Do you think today is literary atmosphere and incentivizes people like you or is literature facing its imminent doom? So, I think is essentially asking is literature converging to a formula which promotes activism rather than an emphasis on wisdom or beauty or even understanding? Literary activity is multi-form as you know I find that literature is not uniform at any given time even though there are ideological trends There are certain trends which transcend the moment which move into what am I called? There are little little vignettes, studies in human nature, human relationships which do not attempt to be grandiose which simply offers us a little corner of what is human These are just as elevating as ambitious, huge, wide-ranging, thematic novels But I'll be bored stiff if I was confronted with only one kind And so I move to all these various genres and expand me as a human being So I'm not pessimistic This is Amanda Grete in our next question. Homosee Bolaji is from Ede in Southwestern Nigeria Hello, Professor Srinke I'm homosee Bolaji from Nigeria Papa Srinke, you're a literary god on our shores But the current Nigerian literary thing is a far cry from the health and disease of decades ago Regretfully, I personally cringe when I meet the young men and women in the area of these days who claim to love the world of writing very few of them can actually mention one or two books written by a great novel or a How do you feel about this? Homosee A there, I think, saying the Nigerian literary scene isn't what it used to be and not even half people have read your books, Waller Well, one thing one consoling assuming that that is to one consoling fact is that when my plays are performed They seem to draw audiences across the board, old and young and I'm a theatre person Is to be expected that people read novels more than plays, plays I'm really meant to be experienced in the flesh But poetry is another issue, I've heard it said that my poetry is convoluted and difficult Well, I can't help that, that's the way the material forces itself out of my mind, out of the creative spaces of my mind But I think I communicate on some level or the other Very few Nigerians you're talking about would then I have enraged, for instance, the Lowne and the Jero Only play with its sense of mischief If that's the only play that they read, I'm satisfied that at least they've read something of me I'm quite satisfied that I'm touching a certain section of the community You can never touch the totality, I think one shouldn't expect too much As long as they don't attribute other people's works to me, which sometimes happens Because they've heard of Wallachianka and so they made a living that a novel which they've read And which they liked was belonged by Wallachianka, now that's very embarrassing Well, it's great to hear you being so positive We talked about Akir, your memoir of childhood at the beginning of today's programme I want to bring back Peter Eze, who is in Nigeria's Kaduna State Hello Wallachian I'm Peter Eze from Kaduna State, Nigerian I get to use the use of childhood, one of my favourite memoirs So I wanted to ask, how proud would the child you read in that book, "Dee of the Man?" You have to come Peter Eze, they're resonating with Akir and asking how proud would the child be of the man? Oh dear, that's very much of a question I don't know We stumped you, Peter you stumped him He certainly has It's easier for me you see to look at the child through the eyes of the man to look at the man through the eyes of the child So I'm not going to answer your question, I can't Well Peter, I think you asked a lovely difficult question and we've got a lovely answer Wallachian, can this is a celebration of a hundred years of English pen, of your first novel in half a century? Almasaibullah Ji in south-western Nigeria has a question about your life and achievements Hello bro Here is a much-haibullah Ji from Nigeria I remember late 1986 when you won the very first African winner of the novella award in literature I was supposed to believe this is the pillar call of a writer's career But yet you've continued to produce sparkly walks for the regular basis, how do you do it? So how do you keep writing after winning a prize, the Nobel Prize in 1986? How is it possible to keep writing in such an energetic and enthusiastic way? Ah, masochism, I think basically I'm a masochist Because the process of writing, this is not to say, let me be very careful here, I don't want to give the impression that writing is not a joy as well But you know the process can be very very difficult And when you've finished one, you sit yourself, that's it, I'm going to do other things I'm going to maybe even go back to college and study one of these other subjects which fascinate me Like architecture or something like that, and take a break But then the pressure comes back and you go back to the medium which you're most familiar So there's always a provocation one way or the other, and then you want to celebrate something Or you are angry about something, or you want to reform something, or just express your recognition of the miracle of existence So I think it's all those various responses that remove the hardware, the labour, the at least really get that And energises you in new directions, that's only a second give you I'm going to ask one last question, which is we've waited 50 years for this novel When might we hope for your next booker of whatever genre? What I said just now, I was in Asapis, you, I said this Not too soon then No, no, listen, I didn't know how long by the way I'm sure you know how old I am You think after finishing that one, I mean to start work on something else Okay, let's put it this way, let me take a vacation first and then you ask me that question and see how I answer Well Ashinke, we're going to let you take that well-earned rest Thank you very much indeed, it has been wonderful to speak to you And on that note, good pleasure And on that note we have to wrap up next month as part of this mini-season celebrating the centenary of the writers organisation In Pressure Group English Pen, we'll be talking to the Turkish writer, Burhan Sonmez, about his disturbing novel, Istanbul Istanbul Set in a grim, subterranean prison complex So any questions you've got for Burhan, do email us or tweet us at BBCWBC You'll find all the relevant details on our website where you can all read it also download more than 200 World Book Club podcasts, interviews with the world's greatest authors from James G. LeClezio to Gunter Grass from Doris Lessing to Arondati Roy. It is a rich scene. Many thanks to our producer, Karin Holden, our sound engineer, Donald Book Donald, to Richard Wasker, who's been manning the phones and to all of you, members of the BBC World Book Club, wherever you are, and especially thank you to this month's guest, Wale Sheinka. If you've enjoyed this World Book Club podcast, why not leave us a rating and review on your podcast app, and there are other podcasts from the BBC World Service you might like. In the series, witness history is told by the people who were there. First hand accounts of some of the most important events to have helped shape our lives and the places where we live. There are five podcasts a week and an incredible archive to delve into. In our time is a world-class seminar every week. I'm Misha Glenny, and every week I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world. It's one of the first times really that you consistently see someone painting teeth, I know that sounds bonkers. In our time, listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.