With/Against Consensus and the True Impact of RBs/WRs Adding Mass: Going Deep with Brandon Angelo & Matt Waldman 4.9.26

Ask you weeks here. So I don't I don't believe you. It takes you a second. I know it did it it might man, but we listen folks. Um, Appreciate you guys coming on here to go in deep and Brandon Angelo, Matt Walman. We're here to, uh, you know, talk about some players for the 2026 class. We're going to talk about running backs and wide receivers this week. We got some specific thoughts on players that maybe were higher on the consensus lower on the consensus who we think might could maybe change their outlooks with some changes to their physical dimensions. Um, and, uh, Then let's see what else the, uh, you know, also players from the previous classes that we, you know, really shouldn't forget about it all, you know, so we'll talk about a little bit of everything. And I, I snuck up on Brandon with the recording. So like, you know, like, we're like, let's go. And then I'm talking and I hit it and I didn't count down. So we're like, you know, we're kind of, we're, we're a lot of it right now. And it's like, it's like, all size and the whole pool of pulling our heads up. Yeah. Getting out of the trenches from watching all this film, but, uh, but no, it's going to be a fun one. I'm excited that obviously just talk this class, broader spectrum and looking at all this stuff. Well, before we do, tell everybody where they can find your work. And because, you know, there are a lot of people are big fans of what you do. When we have this show and talk about the work that you do. And we should, we should let people know right off the bat where they can go. Sure. Absolutely. You can find all my stuff on Angelo and houses.com. Right now have a lot of my like, filmy vows, they call it the classroom, which essentially film cut ups based on their traits, talking through those, what those mean for NFL success failure. And then in about two more weeks around the NFL draft, I drop all the actual grades, what those mean tears and then talk about landing spouses at stuff hits, but all that stuff's there. And I put a live it on Twitter to So people get like snippets of it. Yeah. I just retweeted some today that were some fun ones. And I find, you know, at least a couple of times a week. I'm looking at stuff on his On on Brandon's timeline going, yeah, that's cool. Let's, you know, let's share that and, you know, the type of work that he does is good. And I got to read some of his DeMont Clayborn scouting report, which was fun, you know, and we shared he shared a little bit of that behind the scenes, which was really cool. I enjoyed I enjoyed the way that he went about it and looked at, you know, you know, broken apart. It's good stuff. So you definitely want to check it out. So yeah, so let's start. So who are Alright, so who are two players? Let's start with one. Who's a player you're higher on than the consensus running back or wide receiver? DeMont Clayborn. There we go. No, we've talked about off air a little bit. Um, if you've had a pleasure of reading the RSP, you kind of know where Matt stands and I'm right there with him. I mean, I have him in the same tears as guys like AC conception, Omar Cooper Jr. guys that will probably be first rounders and NFL draft or early second. And I think with playboard, he has, in my opinion, every requisite skill to be a starting calber back in a long term starter that I think he reminds me very much of James Cook, similar movers, extremely fluid, extremely at that at creating in the low red zone. That's the biggest thing with Clayborn. He and Joe and a Coleman are the two best low red zone players in this class. Very different in how they generate generate positive yards there and in turn, those in the six points, but Clayborn, his game is very multidimensional, which means versatile player works through conflict at a high level, extremely quick and initial and early acceleration better than you think receiver. The big thing is the two big things are going to be the size, right? I mean, he's a sub one and 190 pound back and then also the ball security nine fumbles in the last two seasons. So those are obviously two bigger glaring flags for NFL front offices, but I think with the way the positions trending, you're going to see a lot more the mom Clayborn, like backs, enter the NFL and make an impact. I was who James Cook. We have obviously Jameer Gibbs and Devon H and Austin, Accler and list kind of goes on and then next year we'll see guys like Hollywood smothers and Isaac Brown joined that club. So I think that's the big deal of the game is being played in obviously more space. Now we're condensing in a little bit, play more 12 personnel, but those outside zone runs of pretty damn good. And to run the outside zone in a high level, you have to back that's really good initial and early Excel guys, I can turn the corner. And so that's why I think we're seeing the kind of uptick of those type of backs, the Jame Cook, so the world, how I'm making their headway here. So yeah, I think Clayborn's that one guy for me. That I'm circling and drafting on every single one of my fantasy teams. I think you'll be able to get them in the second. They're round your rookie draft, but easily. Yeah, I love it. I mean, you know, I had James Cook as the comp point as well. I mean, I had to I do a spectrum. So like if we start from the low end, the spectrum, like if he really disappointed, I'd say he's like a Steve Slate and like player, but I can't even imagine that I can't even like I'm not going to imagine up to write it down based on body. And based on some skills, but he would have to like, I don't want to say bump his head and forget how to play football, but because that's a little too close to home with football, but like, you know, he'd have to maybe have to drink some magic concoction. And I'm going to play running back. But the players that I have him in the same tier as our cook and Charlie Garner from way back in the day, who was a light player who played very physically. And I think the reason that I liked those comps is that they also, and then same with McCoy and Marshall Falk is the guys that if he somehow exceeded the tier he's in and became even better. He would be aspiring to be that level of back, which is pretty special. But all what a lot of those guys haven't common is that you said the physicality for their size that they play physical. When you watch the Montclair Bourne block, he's one of the few backs I've watched who actually will deliver a punch with good timing. And that's where I don't even see. There's some like tight ends that can't do that. No, he moves. He moves defenders off their spot too. That's a huge one. And I saw some clips to he's calling out protections. Yes. And getting upset when they don't they don't get relayed and like that's the stuff too is like a running back a lot of times is sometimes a copilot of the offense. Yeah. Right. Because he's the one that's going to be administering a lot of these blows that keep the quarterback clean. So that's a huge one, right? Where you have to be a copilot in a sense because you're the closest one to the QB. So you have to be able to get a lot of that. That's relayed and especially if you're in a lot of environment, you might have to be that some of the tackles and you know the guard center, whatever. But also make adjustments. You look at James White and Tom Brady is a great example, right? Yeah. Like those two were in lockstep and changed games based on their communication just between those two. Yeah. And I think that's really important. The between the era skills with clay borne are really high end is evaluating his field IQ is cognitive skill. So I was something I dove into and just an extremely smart intelligent and distinctive player that I think will play a long time because he's going to be so friendly to an offense into a quarterback and he's going to be that copilot and do some really really good things. I think. Yeah. I mean, if you if we had posed the question, if Jeremiah, Jeremiah love doesn't, doesn't become the running back one in this class. It five years from now, who's most likely to be that running back one. I would probably put the Mont Clayborn, you know, even though or as he has the most potential to do that, where is she? Because like I have Emmett, Emmett Johnson number two, but they're really separated by a tenth of a point and Clayborn was my number one until the fumbles and he had seven fumbles of those nine he had seven of them last year. So that's it seems like a concern. But I, but I still the saving grace for him is that for the other three years that he played, he had high workloads and his fumbles rate was not was good. It was actually good. So when you look at that, you go, was he playing with an injury? Was he just being too reckless for one year? You know, what was going on there was just a lapse in judgment with some things. Everyone can have a bad year that way. So if there's three good years and one bad year, it wasn't. You know, I kind of look at that and go, all right, well, I'm keeping an eye out for that. We got to know it. But it's not like Mike Washington, you know, and like every year, Mike was not. It was not good with the ball security. So yeah, sure. All right. So. All right. Who's someone that I'm higher on? Well, Skyler Bell. Skyler Bell, I have in my top five and. Yeah. And I just. He's. He's a fun player to discuss from an evaluation standpoint. It can be a scary thing to talk about when you're focused so much on trying to get things right. But I'm just trying to get the player right. I'm not really worried about whether I get the ranking right. So this is fun. It's not scary. And it's like maybe 16 years ago, I'd probably be scared to scare about this player. I used to be scared when I think about Darren McFad and I was like, oh man, I'm going to look like an idiot when I talk about Darren McFad and not liking him. He's the next coming of the running back. But not for sure. But once you do this for a while, you do it enough. You realize the fun part is actually these players. Bell to me, you look at the speed. You look at the explosion, his ability to make these difficult contested catches. And this curvy linear move, I saw a curvy linear move after I graded him Brandon where he was playing Boston College. And I think he either took a short pass that headed to the left flat or it was one of those like jet, jet sweet deals. And he turns the corner and he gets down field quickly into the flat. And he has to make this curvy linear move that was so tight of a bend that he had to balance touch through it. I had never seen anybody bend an angle that tight at high speed in my life. And I was like, that might be the play I'm going to remember for the entire draft class that I've studied. He does some cool things, man. Yeah. He gets some really cool things. And yeah, I was, I'm right there with you. He's in the same tier with me as like conception and Cooper Jr. and like, yeah, same like he's in my opinion, he's a wait first round or a second round player. I'm with you. And there's one exception I want to talk about with you with this is this is kind of the thing that like for me makes it fascinating. He's a serial clap attacker. So like he's that guy that, you know, you literally for those of you who don't listen to ton of podcasts or you just check in on this one every once in a while, you may not have heard me talk about this or you're new to the show. You know, you want players catching with one of two types of technique where you, if it's an overhand target arriving above like your waist and or even if it's low, but you're bent down and you're extending away from your arms away from your frame. You want either this attack that's kind of a web like thing with your fingertips together or some people teach it with your hands like, you know, apart like this because they feel like it allows your elbows and arms to be shock absorbers more. I've heard two different ways and people talk about that. But like you want your fingertips, at least your thumbs together so that your fingertips can be the ones that handle the ball because they act as like nice shock absorbers to the speed and spin of the ball. But when they hit the meat of your hands, it creates a very fast and violent recoil. Whereas if they hit your fingertips, the recoil just floats and you have a better second chance opportunity. It's like you're catching a jar. That's what it should be. It should never be. A lot of times when you watch receivers, but drops, it's always like the palm-based drops because the ball, the flex off the palm because the palm is an extremely rigid if the fingers are extended. And so that's a big one from like a mechanical standpoint. You see a ton of drops because guys are trying to catch the ball like this. And we're going to bounce off that palm-aloud just like you said. It's a ton of recoil. But yeah, that's a huge one with bell. You see conception and there are guys in this class who, if they don't clean that up, are they going to keep getting opportunity? And that's just a valid question. Yeah. And so when you look at bell, normally with a lot of players, I would look at this and say, "Well, I can't score him well because he's dropping a lot of balls because he's a serial clap attacker." Problem is, or the complication is, he's not dropping a lot of balls as a serial clap attacker. So then you have to ask yourself, am I going to project that it's going to be a magnified issue in the NFL because he's doing that. Now the likelihood of it is yes. But then you have to think, but he's making all these tough plays. And he shows that he can make good technique catches. And then he prefers to clap attack. Like that's his first mode, but he doesn't drop it when he claps attack as often as you would expect. I think you only had four drops this year or maybe four career drops. Something like that's a very small amount with my tracking. But the thing is, I've often talked about clap attack and I said, "There's only like four players I've seen that I've since the late 90s who are clap attackers who actually had some level of production on a consistent basis." And every receiver clap attacks, but there's like serial clap attacking that can be probably Quentin Johnson was a serial clap attacker. And then he had other problems too. He's the first one I think of for sure. But then like Cortland Sutton, I remember, had some serial clap attacking, but he's been a solid NFL starter. But then I see that it's limited to now two types of targets, high targets above his head, high points and high and away targets. And that's what bothers conceps his own. Those are the only targets he really clap attacks the most and drops. The other ones he tends to be able to hold onto. But Bell, he catches all of them. So the four exceptions that I've seen over the years, three of them I grade it. Early do set who was, you know, a wide receiver three for the Cardinals during the Fitzgerald Bolden era. So he wasn't anything like special for fantasy, but he played Golden Tate, you know, very good receiver. And he could catch it correctly, but he often shows not to. But he was, but he was a very productive number two receiver or slot flanker type. And then the one who's, you know, that I joke defies the physics of catching a football is Terry McCloren. He literally claps on the ball like he's a 1970s wide receiver in terms of the technique. You know, I mean, some of these great receivers, you watch Steve large and catch a football sometimes and you're like, that would never fly in the NFL today. And then you think, well, maybe it would have Steve large and were played in the NFL today. It's that whole kind of, but he, you know, McCloren does this all the time. And then I thought, well, what do these guys have in common that made them successful? And the fourth guy, Marvin Harrison senior, who literally channeled like a mod rashad or something like from 1978, like all the time, like I don't think I ever saw him like catch a ball correctly. I went back and watched highlights one, like a few years ago, just to make sure I didn't remember. And like all the highlights were trapping and clapping. And I was just like, wow, okay, that's a great high end example. So what they had in common is either, either or, or it's either and or situation for them. It's either they clap attack is their main way of doing things and had few drops. And they were successful making tough plays with this horrendous technique that we've, that you, that's sub optimal. Or they, or what was the other one that I would say that they could do they either they either, they either did that as their main way and it was no other way they could catch the ball. Or it was that they could catch the ball correctly. But with the optimal technique, but they were so good at catching it the other way that it didn't matter like they could do both. And the guys who I always saw that were struggling were the ones who would try to do it with optimal technique and they would drop the ball enough that they'd just go back to the only way they knew how like I remember Robert Meacham, he was playing against LSU one year is a Tennessee receiver way back in the day, the Saints drafted early. And he was big fast and strong and you know, they loved him. And I'm, I remember seeing a game when the first half tried the optimal technique on everything. And I think he dropped like three or four passes in that half. And then he just went straight back to dropping everything and clap attacking it. And I was like, yeah, that's not good. Like if you, if you know you, that means you lack confidence and being able to do it the right way. And when you look at Bell, he fits those conditions. So the fact that his drop rates low, I look at that and go, I may be taking a chance on him that high. But because of his game and because of what he's shown, I just believe that if it's, it's, you can project him as being the exception to the rule in this case. And so yeah, that's, that's why he's fascinating because you can see how maybe things get exacerbated early in the NFL and he over thinks things in the clap attacks. Erdem and he drops balls early. But I think he's also because he does show fundamental sound catch technique. at times that other guys didn't, that it won't hurt him as much. I think that he might have a slight temporary lack of confidence or because he's slumping a little bit and then he puts it all together and it's not a problem. - For sure. - So who else do you have that's underrated on your, I don't know what's going on. - Oh my gosh. - Why do you say Eli Stowers? - Yeah. - I've got my tie in one. He's in that same tier of guys like, you know, conception and like, Williams and Boston and Cooper Jr. I think he's the best type in the class. I don't think it's, I have a different tier than Sedeek as well. I think he's kind of like Jordan Reed. - Yeah, I love it. And I think that type of player is, I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's going on a style or in style. - Right. - Because you have your Tramik Brides who are absolutely ball and just having all pro seasons and then, you know, it's just one of those difficult things where it's like, you know, the Zacharyts types, right? Like are those types going to be in in today's league? And for me, I think yes, I think he offers you a lot of versatility on offense. Remember how we had the same, similar conversation? Not, I mean, same caliber and of Colston Loveland, right? Where he's like, man, can Colston Loveland block? Like, is he, yeah, he can. And yes. And he can, wow, he just, that wasn't what he was tasked with. I don't think Stowers is a level of blocker that Loveland was and his frame doesn't really fit that mold. However, I think he's going to be able to block well enough to be on the field as in every downturn. And do some really, really cool things in offense. - I'm with, he's awesome. - I'm with you. Like I keep seeing online lately this whole week. Oh, he can't block worth of darns. So they're looking at him like, is it could he be Mike Evans and could he be an outside or something like that? And I didn't think he was that bad as a blocker. I thought he just wasn't. He's a move tied end. And so there's some things he can pick up and get better at, but you're not expecting him to be, you're not expecting him to be Tucker Kraft. You're gonna have him actually go out and run routs. So I like, I'm with you. He's my number one too as well. And the way he makes plays in tight coverage but can also get separation late in a route. He can be that security blanket down below where quarterbacks aren't afraid to throw it into a tight area. So, and then you know, we all know what he can do after the catch and he's very athletic and mobility and strength and that's great stuff. I'm gonna go way off the way off the radar here. - I love it. - Do it. - I love Miles Montgomery of UCF, the Cincinnati. I think he's in the same tier. He's in my third tier at the very beginning of it and he's at the top of my third tier, which is okay. - Okay. - I love it. - Yeah, he's very close to my second tier. He's 510-198 and the thing that, the thing that he does better than anybody else in this class is pass protect. Okay, no, I know that's not a fantasy, sexy fantasy thing. But he can punch, he diagnoses inside, outside, doesn't get fooled very often by anything, he has really good footwork. He holds up very well as a pass protector. And then when you look at the ball with the ball in his hands, he has a fast processor. I thought he excelled at reading the keys of what the defense were doing pre-snap and having an answer for it. He also excelled when things didn't go as blocked early in the play and they didn't blow up the play. He had the footwork, the movement along with the connection to his eyes for him to be able to create in short yardage and situations where he didn't automatically try to bounce things. Like if he bounced it, it was immediately going downhill from where he bounced it like with the two steps. Like he was someone that could give you, he could sidestep a couple of steps and then just get right downhill, get his pads low and get under people or through people. And he's just at that size that you could see where, all right, he's probably gonna be 5, 10, 2, 10 before it's all over with. You know, and that might be a little even better acceleration, a little more explosion with that extra 12 pounds to his frame. And I already think the agility is underrated, and he dictates contact. He dictates the terms of contact with just larger defenders, so he's a step ahead. And so if he gets just a little faster and a little notably more explosive, I think he could be the biggest sleeper of this running back class. If not just this, there's like two or three guys I think could be sleepers of the draft class, but this is one of those guys that I'm like, I watched him and I had like a, I had a little, I had a scout basically, was like, or a scout from another league asking me, like, are there any players that you, that you can recommend to me that you like more than most who you think might not even get, who are like late round guys who might not get drafted, but you have like early grades on them. And I'm like, yeah, absolutely. And the first one I mentioned was Miles Montgomery. You know, he, so we'll see. I mean, it's a, you never know how it is, but the way I would kind of characterize him is, he's kind of, he's a lot like Kenneth Gainwell, and just the way that Kenneth Gainwell, you know, Gainwell's not super fast, but he's very good in all aspects of the game. And if you give him a chance to play, he makes good decisions. And he, and he endears himself to coaches. And I think Montgomery's kind of like that, but maybe he has a little bit, maybe might have a little more juice, but we didn't get a chance to really see for sure. Sure. Now, I love it. No, I watched a little bit of his tape. I haven't gotten all the way through yet, but I can, I can kind of see some of the things, same things that you, you did, especially from a cognitive perspective. Like he just picks up things so quickly, and he's, he's a step ahead of the defender, in terms of when they're meeting them in the hole. And that makes a big deal when you're, you know, you're not 225 pounds, right? Yeah. You're getting a leverage advantage. And almost every single down, because you're processing things that take quicker. And that really does matter, especially if you're late-rounder, UDFA types. If you see the field in preseason, and you're outbrushing those guys, it's going to show up. And I agree with the Kenny Gainwall comparison in a way, because I think those guys are so important in interval to the NFL, because they hang around forever. And they'll get an opportunity and just around with the, like, Kenny Gainwall was Pittsburgh's best back by a mile last year, in my opinion. And I think he's going to be the best back in pamphlet this year as well. So I think very highly of Game-Mole did his well come out of Memphis. And I think those type of players are going to start seeing more and more in the league, because the versatility from a movement standpoint, but as well from a positional perspective of blocking, receiving, you know, rushing, that they can add is extremely valuable. And you know, it's funny when we talk about maybe teams are compressing more, offenses are compressing the field more and playing bigger. It's still going to take probably another three years for college, for NFL to catch up with getting bigger players who are good enough to be on an NFL field to counter. The 12 and 13 personnel. So I think we've got at least a few years of smaller backs, still taking advantage of these defensive fronts that were drafted and designed in some respects for spread offenses. So especially linebackers who are safety size. So that's especially where that's going to happen more than anywhere. And I think that that's where they can leverage out for a few years. Yeah. For sure. So all right. Well, who do you have lower than? Who's your first that you're lower? Or the rest? Lower than consensus. I think that's interesting because for me, the first one is rob we're going to be, uh, Citiq. Right. I have him, you know, as a developmental traits, traits, traits, space prospect. I think he can be a short-term or bridge starter. I think that's what makes him inconsistent. He's in his game could leave, could lead to career fallout. Right. Yeah. Um, I would say, uh, first Brazil the second. Okay. I think he's, there's a big hype train around him, I think, too, of like this guy who's six five, who's a really fluid mover, who has all the place being the world. But with Brazil, I think a lot of it is, and he went above the room with consistency. And that's the big question mark for me is, and he beat number one corner that are pressing him that are playing physical brand football. And that's what I don't really have an answer for right now is, and he be that, 'cause here goes this, there's two players I think that are in that, for me, I'm gonna be lower than consensus on this. Brasile II in Chris Bell. Both are similar in the way that the archetype of those receivers typically don't pan out as perennial thousand nerd guy. Like if you think about it, Chris Bell, for example, how many guys in that physical profile are primary receivers in their default offense? I can think of two. The K-Metcalf, AJ Brown. That's it. That's the list. And the rest of the list isn't very pretty, because then you have your guys like Xavier Legat, and Mingo's other world. You have these guys that have a great physical profile and have six to two 20 and run like a deer, but they aren't skilled enough as movers to drop their weight and run a big tree. So you have guys that are great on crossing patterns and slants and delays and things of that nature, and they go at the ball on their hands, but the depth of tree isn't there from the B of number one receiver in the F-O. And so unless you're that upper percentile of your guys like Brown, your guys like Metcalf who are in that same archetype physical trait, it's really hard to get up there. It's not a huge bet. And then on the other side of the coins, Brazil the second, it's the guys that are six four plus, you're six five guys. Your guys that are long and lean and offensive coordinators don't lean on deploy them. Right, you don't want to deploy them as you're number one, you move around because you, can you trust that? How many guys that are six five have had a thousand yards? The list is very small, right? Calvin Johnson. Calvin Johnson, Randy Moss. Mike Williams. Mike Evans. Mike Evans, Mike Williams. That's, I mean, that's a pretty small for my recollection. That's about what I can come up with. - And then I'm talking big Mike Williams. That was about it. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And so that's tough. It's like, how is it offensive corner of an employee skill? It's because I think he's a really talented player. It has a ton of upside. He reminds me of DJ Chark actually. There's another one in that archetype. But is that going to be a player? It's going to be deployed into all personnel, right? And that's tough, but we don't have those answers. But I'd say that my biggest one that I'm low-waste on is definitely, now I have as a roster bubble from a majority of career player. Yeah, because I think the injury is one of them to the durability issues. And that could have happened from the ACO at 220 pounds. You already have trouble with that. At that weight, dropping the celebrity and getting in and out of cuts. And now you had an ACO on top of that December of a surgery. So then you're looking at a potential, you know, October issue returned to play. When you're maybe a day three pick, like if he's a day three guy, then you might get passed by for the next cycle as well. So it's an uphill climb for for capital as well as the archetypical nature of his build and how he plays receiver. I can totally see the scenario for all of that with him. I agree where the pitfalls are with him. He's the player in some regards that I think I'm most afraid to draft and most afraid not to draft at the same time. Just to be sure. I know. I am. Because if it shakes, right? Like he, yeah, he could be a legitimate, you know, version of what we wanted guys like Traylon Berks to be. Right? I mean, that's just the reality of it where that archetype of receiver is so scary, but yet so tantalizing at the same time because we look at the AJ Browns and AJ Brown is the rarest of rare breeds. Yeah. Even though he's a little, he's still as limitation as the route runner, his highs are astronomical. And so that's the really interesting part of the conversation with Bell is the highs are a potential problem, right? The lows are year out of the league in three to four years. So, you know, Bell could easily be one of mine, but I'm going to go a different route with the two that I have. But the first one I'll say is, oh, wait, because that's predictable. I'm going to go quarterback. We didn't talk about quarterback, but I'm going to go quarterback. And I'm going to say Carson Beck. I think that most people don't view-- in the public view, Carson Beck is an early round pick. But I think that Carson Beck could probably be a first or early second round pick in this class, just based on what I'm hearing, you know, people in the football community that I know talk about and I go, he's the exact thing that NFL teams like to look for from a physical prototype standpoint. You know, the arm strength, the size, two winning programs, the stats that he's shown. You know, he's at least had good moments in two programs. And the way he spins the ball and that he probably understands the confidence of football pretty well on a whiteboard. The problem that I see with Carson Beck is that, well, I'll say the good stuff is all those things plus there are things that he process as well. But the problem is is that in the NFL, you have to process information fast and confidently and accurately when there are multiple defenders in the triangle that the receiver is reading. And when he's throwing into a triangle, where two or three defenders are within the area of the ball and they can or within range that they can peel off where they were to cut off or undercut the ball. Beck doesn't show awareness of that with his placement or even his decision to throw the ball in the first place. So the defender that's kind of ancillary to the main coverage has an opportunity frequently to cut it off. He also throws hospital balls. [LAUGHTER] But by you slip. [LAUGHTER] It's like you also might be in the ICU for two weeks. He also might get the higher of the-- he also might draw the higher of Michael Thomas, who's having Derek Carflash Max all the time. He's got Derek Carp PTSD the way he went off on Twitter. And I kind of don't blame him and then with Alabe and all that. So those are problems. It's like-- I think that there are a lot of quarterbacks who come into the league who have promising traits. But the thing is, is that he can never get passed where and when not to target the ball. Like Garrett and Noesmeier has that problem with one area of the field. And it's basically outside the numbers in the intermediate and vertical sideline. That's where he misses the ancillary defender with certain looks like cover two. That's fixable. But when I'm looking at a player where everywhere he throws and he doesn't see that, it's trouble. And that's Beck. And I'm concerned that he just doesn't see it well. So that's my first one. Who's your second guy that you're like? Well, you mentioned both. So my second guy. We've talked about him. We both feel the same way about him. But it's so damningly clear. And to me, that's Mike Washington, Jr. It's two things. It's the ball security, one per 51 touches. That's well below the rate that I find acceptable. And some guys get better at it. But it's very few who have gotten better at it and then still produced. And maybe the data I've looked at is, it's noisy, so it's not a direct correlation. But what is a direct correlation for me is that you have to be consistent at the point of contact in the collision to where you drop your pads and you face the defender when you do it. He likes to try and spin off of contact. Or not even spin. Just turns his back into it and tries to dig in. He's a huge pivot-based mover through contact. And it absolutely kills drives. Yes. Like, you know, you get to a second and four. And this should be, you know, easy first down. You're staring at third and two for some reason. Because you're 230 pound back. Won't square up and face the downhill safety. Like that's the stuff that's-- it's maddening when you watch a guy with his-- ability and initial and early acceleration just from down to down shy away from direct engagements and that's also a big reason in my opinion why he has such fumbling issues is if he's correct pads are high you're not going he's not coming downhill to 230 pound frame he is opening up and it's open season in terms of taking a shot on him because he's also he's six to imagine if you're imagine if your pads your elbows your forearms your hands your knees and your feet are basically like the way people like to describe low center of gravity backs with power that they're a bowling ball with butcher knives and axes and weapons coming out of them well he's shown that he can do that but he does it so he does it so seldomly compared to turning his back so yeah the pad he can't get the pads down to make the first contact he can't get the second contact to clear a guy with his forearm or his elbows he's not pulling through low contact because his knees and feet aren't going high and forward down hill he has no lean downhill he's not accelerating through contact he can't accelerate backwards through this it's not you know it's not a NASCAR Ricky Bobby's driving you know and you know so you you literally like you said exposed your body he from he goes from being a bowling ball with butcher knives to being a bowling ball that's a magnet for contact he's definitely six to yeah like that you can't he's six one six two you can't open yourself up like that and you have nowhere to go like if you can't drop your center of center of mass and and get through defenders I mean you just decelerate instantaneously and then you know with the ball security issues on top of it those guys guys like that and the NFL like never linear linear base movers who are over six one don't really pan out like there aren't many of them that are elite elite players the only one I can think of that is a similar mover in terms of linear driven athlete higher cut is breeze hall but the movement tools that breeze hall has are it's great it's a grand canyon sized gap between that and Mike Washington Jr. So you know you're only all pro pro-ball type example is you know one player so it's just it's just really hard to find and see Mike Washington Jr. as the second player of that archetype being super successful so let's move to this and I'm really interested in your thoughts on these players or for this question because you know you obviously deal with athletes developing themselves in various ways and so I think I'm gonna get probably a very real some realistic answers and things grounded in ideas that maybe a lot of other people out there aren't able to do and they conveniently say well he just adds 20 pounds no be great you know so the question is like who are some players like I see some running backs here where I thought to myself can they add eight to ten pounds of muscle and you look at their frame then I go I'm not the professional in this that Brandon is so but I want to know are there players at any position that you look at and go if they add a reasonable amount of muscle and I'd like to know how much you think that reasonable is based on their body right could they advance their game on some levels and we look at them and go oh they're kind of a different player because now the skills are being brought out that much more that they have but athletic ability is now able to ride the ride yeah it's a great that's a actually a really good question I think a lot of times when we talk about adding mass it's one of those really interesting ones because all a time in this time your eyes this guy added ten pounds he'd be a first-round pick it's really not that simple because what ends up happening is you've had a player that has moved a certain way and has the movement literacy at like let's say two hundred pounds adding to enter adding that frame to plus ten pounds at two hundred ten pounds doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna have more power it just means you're gonna have more mass which is not great all the time if you're if you're trying to move that mass right so that's the thing is like I'd rather have someone at two hundred pounds I can I know come back upon some add ten pounds and be a tick slower because they haven't learned because it's also to a re-education period in terms of movement right you have to re-educate your limbs your tendons your lignaments your musculature to actually absorb and reproduce that forest at a high level with more mass added that's the big thing it it's if they just add ten pounds tomorrow they're not gonna necessarily be faster their limbs and their nervous master re-educate everything over a period of time and then you can kind of see where that six season fails I would probably say the one running back that comes in mind that I think can really add is Nick singleton I think he can add eight to ten wow and and play at close to two thirty and be a hammer wow he's not a great mover laterally but he's so good in initial and early acceleration that part of his game won't really be hindered right when you talk about adding mass a lot of times guys who add mass what goes the biggest is velocity right like you're talking about a quarter mile per hour drop off potentially half mile an hour in some cases guys there are guys who care their speed super well at 130 plus pounds say quam barkly being one of those that comes in mind but you're looking for a back that needs to get through contact and Nick singleton's already 220 plus pounds right you get a guy like that who has the frame to get to 230 then you're talking about meeting backers and the a and b gap a little different right and you're still bringing that that that pop and initial and early excel because of how he's the move is a very linear driven mover now again you know if you let's say you add 10 pounds to you know one eight one of your favorite players in this in this draft cycle I'm a Johnson it's not gonna work right because of how reactive he is a mover and how he changed everything from latter to linear so that wouldn't really work as well because you're slowing that down a tick and it's like adding 10 pounds of bucky Irving that probably will work very well right because you're losing a lot of movement quality and the efficiency that you were getting before which you just don't really want to play around with I would say singleton for sure so what about guys that I'm gonna give examples that added weight and seem more explosive but that might be a wives tale okay but like I think of like torell Davis who was 195 Clinton Portis who was 190 195 Ray Rice who was you know 195 to 200 and became 220 and you know seem to get a little quicker or people commented that that was the case are their cases even Aaron Jones was 195 at U-TEP and is now closer to 210 so when I think of a lot of players like Jamal Haynes or Robert Henry Jr. or you know some of those guys that are on this list you go could they could they add that weight and be okay what are the things how does how why do some guys look like they're even faster or quicker and people say well you add quick twitch muscle and they and they've got their more explosive and I'm guilty of that so yeah so like so tell me correct what I'm wrong about here with that to help me dispel my wives tale notion of this that I've heard from from other people for years yeah it's not really it's it's it isn't it isn't a wives tale it's a big hit the pens actually so I think a lot of times it ends up happening is like I said like we all right this guy gained 10 pounds this guy's faster stronger you know this is the best ready back we're referencing now and that's typically not the case because when you add mass like there's a large reeducation period that has to happen because it's not like you're adding mass and you're running you know zero to 10 that's what you're doing you're not doing that you are against other living breathing thinking top percentile athletes and on planet earth who are trying to rip your head off so it's a big hit. reactive thing in nature. So if you can't react in the same vein neurologically, incognitively, then it doesn't really matter. So there were good movers in the first place. And they just got better at seeing the game faster. The game's closed down for them so they can speed up. If that makes sense. It's like you do the multiplication tables as a kid. I don't know if you have the manure kid I had him when I was a kid. So the multiplication table is the first time you do them, you're super slow. Right. Then you do them 20 times and you're freaking breezing through them. You're you're mind reeducated. Yeah. They neurologically you understand the sequencing, right? So when you understand the sequencing at that level with that much mass, you can sequence that at a quicker rate. So it would be the same thing with boxers who move up in weight class. Like they, you know, sugar ray Leonard was such a good, was so quick anyway. And his mind was so quick at what he perceived and what he was able to process that even though he moved up from Walter Way to middleweight, it wasn't a big deal. Roy Jones Jr., you know, folks like that, that makes sense. But if you lose weight, you know, and you're already quick, well, you know, does it make you quicker? Or does it, does it possibly help you because you have less mass there? But you might be a little, but you also could risk. I imagined of losing stamina because of the fact that your body, you know, that maybe you're underweight for what you really should be. Yeah, it's so interesting because it is so case by case, but I'll come down to the big C its confidence, right? Like is this, can this player become more confident doing X? If a player is playing with more confidence at five more pounds, will that make a physical difference of X percent? You really can't quantify it, which is why I hate when people are like, oh man, I love, I absolutely love my Washington Jr., but I will never draft the Montclavemore. Holy cow, the Montclavemore and so much better as a player runs laps around my Washington Jr., however, NFL GMs are sometimes cavemen. Yeah. In terms of thinking, it's they want the best physical, like, pop for a party back. Yeah. And I want to look great walking off the bus. Like that's what I want. But that's that's like archaic thinking. That's what we want the bus runway. Exactly. Right? Like they want to get off the bus kids. Yeah. Right? And a lot of times that's what ends up happening and you get bad football players. And so if you lose weight, can you, does it make you quicker? Inherently your limbs can move freer and it's you can neurologically probably, you know, process things a little quicker of a rate from like, you know, your mind muscle connection, so to speak. But doesn't make you faster. But are you, is there a cost of at padding, essentially, right? Because that's what, you know, people think that muscle mass is for football is padding, right? We get hit a lot. But really what you do is you lose weight as season goes up. So if you play at 205, you're going to end the season, likely at 198 to 200 pounds, maybe less. And so it's just essentially armor to get through 17 plus games. That's that's the durability. I guess not if I hit someone at 230 pounds, like, are they not, they're just not going to get hurt? They're not as likely to hurt. No, it's, they're not going to drop from 230 to 235 a size difference, right? You drop from 295, like, that can make a bigger difference when you're absorbing so much force on a game to game basis that could make a difference. So it's a really interesting conundrum in terms of we look at it from, okay, this player is too light. Like the way it's at the NFL combine are hilarious. Because I see him come up in every comments like, all this guy is too small. All this guy's a perfect size. It's just the weirdest shit ever. It's just so strange to me. Because it's really about how they utilize that way. But also the NFL combine weigh-ins are like fighting weigh-ins in a way. Yeah. And just imagine going to the senior bowl and on Martin Luther King, Jr's birthday in a former slave port, they're weighing all these guys, you know, operating them on the thing and everybody's commenting on their bodies and fetishizing it. And it's like, and then I'm laughing because then I talk to former NFL players, they go, you know, some of the sloppiest looking dudes who look like they place off ball in a Chicago league. Sure. Like some of the best athletes on the field. And they're like, and they're so good at like one of my friends played basketball, intramural basketball back in the day with Heinz Ward. And he said, if you looked at Heinz Ward and a T-shirt and shorts, you would never think that he was an NFL player. And he was, you know, he wasn't much of a basketball player. He was a football player player, a basketball. But he was all football player, you know, and he had a long career. And, you know, now you see him now and he, you know, he looks like me out there coaching, you know, like, you know, the way, you know, and that's kind of the thing is that we like to think that they need to be chiseled in there like these fitness and it's not that. It's not that. The game has played up stairs. And we forget that because we love to look at the one percent of the population in terms of physique. And I think that's a really big one is you, do you, I heard the old, old adage like, you want to look at what you're not. So to speak, like I'm not six to two 20. So six to two 20 look pretty freaking cool. Right. But that's not always effective on the field of play, right? When bullets are flying and, you know, you're against other thinking, feeling human beings who are getting, you know, hands from really smart thinking, feeling human beings. And so that's the issue is it's played upstairs. But that's also why you see receivers have so much more success if they're four, five, five, the four, six, five guys than four, three guys to four, two guys. There you go. That's, that's like think about it. Like how many guys who rent sub four three have been a thousand year receivers in the NFL? Yeah. Three tirecule. That's Randy Moss. Hill Moss. You know, I think maybe I know Moss and I think there's one other. I'm that's really it. And you're talking about three guys ever. And that's such a lot of thing for receivers, but in reality, to play that fast, you have the process equally as quick. That makes it extremely, extremely hard thing to do the process when you're when you are that rapid of a mover. It's really difficult. And that's right. It has to be much faster than everybody else's brain. Exactly. 100%. Like you have to be firing on different cylinders than everybody else. That's why it's easier to chain speed than to have speed. Yeah. Because you can do that. Everybody can chain speed. You can make that a tool in your toolkit. Not everybody has speed. So people who have speed use it. And that's all they do. And so that's a really interesting thing when you talk about guys who have not hand out in the NFL who've been for three guys. I bet I bet my wife ran a 4 4 40 probably when she was a track athlete. And they tried to put her on the basketball team. And she found they found out pretty quickly why she just ran track. She could run the court, but she couldn't shoot. You know, and processing what was going on on the court. It's just a whole totally different foggy man. And I think that that's when it's, you know, it's it's always fun to look back on guys who don't have success. And you're kind of like, oh man, like to call me for there is Hayward Bay, like for stop here. And like, yeah, that's who we're like, oh man, it's guys of freak like they just that's why I read the most special because again, Bill Bollochek said he's the smartest player ever coached. Yeah. And that's what you had to be in order to have that much success is your six five, right? A four two. Like, yeah, you got to be thinking like you're ahead of everybody to be able to react the way you did it. That's me. That makes 100%. Yeah. It's all perceptual. For sure. So let's end it this way. We'll each pick a player from a previous class that we shouldn't forget about. I'm just going to choose mine. And I want to say Damien Martinez signed by the Packers during this period. And I think that, you know, there are a lot of people who like Damien as a as a back because he's got nice size. He can break tackles. He's quick enough, fast enough. He processes the game pretty darn well. He's a good outside zone runner, but he can pound it. If you need him to get plays. And I thought that he was a decent blocker who could get better. And he was a and he was a better receiver than credited for. So with you know, a manual Wilson God, Christopher Brooks, Simon. to a second contract and Marshawn Lloyd just trying to get healthy and proving that he can hold onto the ball once he is healthy with all that speed and also being able to prove that he can be more disciplined. He's got to show all that because we hasn't had enough time to really show it right now. David Martinez might have an opportunity to step in and be the second or third back on this depth chart and have a future in Green Bay. A hundred percent agree. I mean yeah, yeah, you hit the nail on the head. I think you look at what Green Bay is going to be in another year to it's ranked match. This is a big question mark, right? We don't know what that room is going to look like with Josh Jacobs getting older and on track wearing out. So I think that's an interesting one for me. It's going to be Chris Rodriguez Jr. There we go. I think that he has a chance to be a really big piece in that Jaguar's offense. When you look at Liam Cohen, what's the connection? Well, Chris Rodriguez Jr. At almost 1400 yards in McClellan was a bell cow there at Kentucky. And then averaged over a hundred yards of game before he got hurt in his senior season. So you look at it and they went out and got him. I think Tuton is viewed more in the Bucky Irving type categorization of we're going to use this guy up until we get to the goal wide. And that is a really difficult thing when you're talking about fancy football is he's strictly likely between the 20s back. In Chris Rodriguez, Jr. is going to add a different element of yards after contact and low red zone work, short yardage. And that's what Liam Cohen likes. And he actually went on and said it. He's like, I like running back set. The first thing I look at is yards after contact. And that was a really interesting thing at the I think was the owners meeting that they do and they went on interviewed. I want to you said that and you go out and get one of the best yako guys. In free agency in Chris Rodriguez, Jr. When they he's worked with personally and had success with. So I think that's an interesting one from me. Obviously, he's a near zero as a receiver, but you're looking at potential 10 plus touchdown upside in Jacksonville because he's going to get that work because that's where he's trusted. And I think that's a really big one to not forget about because he does have some upside of being a RB three potentially. Yeah, no, I can see that. That's totally cool. And the experience, like you said, Liam Cohen's worked with them before. He knows what he had. So that's a sneaky good play. Well, listen folks, you know, we we've enjoyed this as always as we always do and we will be back in a couple of weeks. By that time, the draft will be very close and we'll have a little bit more for you in meantime, check out Brandon Angelos work, you know, and Angelos analysis. Check out my work at the RSP. It is now available. You can get it at MountWaldman.com. And we appreciate you and thank you so much for tuning in as you have and being, you know, the subscribers that you've been and giving us the feedback that you have. It's it's a privilege. And, you know, we have fun doing it. We and we're glad that you have fun listening to us do it. So we do appreciate it. Yeah.