Wir sollten weniger China belehren als von ihnen lernen

- Good morning, good day, good night. Daniel and I are back at the Hotspots German "Bürgerlichkeit" rather at the most beautiful place in southern Bavaria. I'm from the most beautiful city of Germany. It can only be Hamburg. And yesterday I had a show there and I met someone again. And I even have witnesses, namely the wife of an entrepreneur, who said, "Yeah, the point, point, point, listen to me and listen to me." And I said, "How do I have to imagine that?" And he said, "Yeah, the podcast is on and then it relaxes me." And I think that's because we swing the tune and then these people sleep in. In that sense, you are who you are, it's good to sleep if you hear it, it dreams something beautiful. - Everyone knows that it needs changes and that it is necessary. Germany has to be competitive. - With four days a week and work-life balance, we will not be able to keep the prosperity of our country. - Make economy great again. Like Germany's economy, boom again. The podcast with economist Daniel Stelter and world publisher Ulf Poschardt. - We are talking again about China today. Daniel was in China for almost two weeks and we have countless reports. New-year report, but above all always the question, what can we do now? And do we have a lever to counter something in this innovation race in China? Then the second, Katerina Reiche, who has all our sympathy in this federal government, has for the first time since 2019 a circle of "friends" of the industry, again reactivated to make it clear that we in Europe need a more reasonable industry and culture policy. And the third topic, the report from Hamburg, there was the climate decision. And there are interesting apology numbers from Munich. We take a look at how the richest cities in Germany are destroyed and who they are destroyed and what this has to do with the big burger tower. Hello, dear Daniel. - Hello Ulf, nice to see you again. - You have contributed with your lecture on China and the many numbers and details and predictions and observations you have made. - One, as I think, very fruitful and sacred uncertainty of our listeners and listeners. Because this element, what does China actually do, is again and again amazing under the radar when compared to how obsessively the Germans look at America in the direction of America. Everything is bad, bad, bad. The American supercapitalists are bad, bad, bad. Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, Alex Karp. It's okay, everything is kind of big and threatening. And I think your reports from China led to you thinking again. Maybe we'll see that, among other things, China is maybe the much bigger threat for our prosperity. Climb up, we also have it with a communist dictatorship to do. In short, the question I asked you about at my event here in Hamburg, a certain half dozen has been heard, we still have a chance. So it was a very famous German Berber, a very famous, even the most famous. Tell me, Ulf, what you said in the podcast, China, do you still see any area where we are the Chinese out there and any part of the German economy, any segment where we are the Chinese out there? And then I was there for a long time and activated my inner Daniel Stelter, looked at him and said, honestly, stand now, no. So you have that with the people, and also with me, Daniel. Can you somehow relate it or do we have to see the bitter truth in our eyes? So I would like to position it a bit differently. Because it sounds like this, there are the bad Chinese and we are actually the good honest and they are unfair to us now. And that is also part of the case, but I think it's less that China makes us flat, but it's more that we actually shot ourselves into the war. We were simply too complacent, as you say so. Look, what did we have? We support our economy, which all come from the empire. Automobile, chemistry, machine building, construction, all those are industries that were born in the empire. They were born in the environment where we had cheap energy with coal. One of the best education systems in the world. Where we had goals in the state, which built the rail network, very efficient, very effective. So that's what China is doing today. We had a few other industries that were good, photography, entertainment electronics, where we are the longest, computers were in Berlin, as you know, we are no longer there. But we have received these industries and they have more and more support for our economy. And that has already been a great achievement. And of course, this great achievement led us to be proud of ourselves and that no one can do it. And then we came to the 2000s. In 2000s, we settled down in China from one success to the other, because China simply modernized and industrialized itself from the very poor country and learned scientifically. And we said, it's great. Secondly, thanks to the euro crisis, we had cheap money. That has made a lot of things easier. And above all, we had a weak euro. You have to know, we used to always have a currency that has always been rated, that has always been printed, where the companies had to be more productive. And always, every few years, the French and Italians have been rated. We were the trade fair. The German companies had to say again, how do we make it even cheaper? With the euro, we actually had a lira, where it was rated, life was easy. Life was beautiful, we had a boom. Mr. Schäuble swam from the black zero. Mrs. Merkel could do all kinds of things. That was the case. And we thought we could do all kinds of things. Among other things, in energy policy, in immigration policy, all that costs to build up a city, energy expenses, no one can do it in our way. We have the best products in the world. And now it's time for the end. I can evaluate the euro here forever. The Chinese have learned, and as I mentioned last time, in more than 50% of the companies that were asked about the German foreign exchange chamber in China say, in the last five years, the Chinese technology leaders are in their respective sectors. I would say, yes, there was one consequence that said, how am I going to do well? And the other one has settled down. Or has made other political conditions. So basically, we already have our destiny to say, let's take the fight up. Now, however, the German economy is basically in a boxing fight with China with the hands bound in the back. And yes, you can survive that. You can if you can do a lot and maybe find niches and suffocate. But you can't in a situation where you enter a competition that just acts systematically. And then to say, oh, that's just a subvention. Oh, we have to raise the columns here and stuff like that. That's not the answer. Because it seems to us that we are still active in the world as an export nation. We sell the machines, sell the exports, sell the trees, sell the world. And then we meet these good competitors. And that's why I can only say, the answer has to be loud. Let's take this competition. And that's what we need now, the Turbo Herbst reform. We know that. Can we do that? Yes, we can do that. Will we be able to defend all sectors? No, we won't be able to do that. But can we exist in some segments? Yes, we can do something in some niches. Of course, there would be companies that are independent, of course. But we need the right framework conditions to have as many companies as possible to have the chance to enter this boxing competition. That's why it's up to me to say, I didn't come here and say, oh, the Chinese are general. And I would say something like that. Because we have become comfortable. We have set the wrong priorities. And we will come again with "Hamburger Klima" and other topics. And if we don't wake up there, then I am unfortunately, so to speak, according to the word, very good. If you just don't want to fight, you don't have to worry about it. If you are just made from another plate. So that's definitely a pragmatic realism that you anticipate. I think it's very important. We're talking about China in the near future. Then also about the EU, who are also definitely an industrial and economic political factor to defend themselves against China in some form. Only that there is no misunderstanding between Daniel and me. Of course, it wasn't about "good cop, bad cop". But I think we have a competition of systems. And we have a competition just about a power monopoly in global. And you have also been on it for the last time, that the Chinese have a cultural self-understanding, that is why it comes that they have been already a high-culture for thousands of years. As we Germans are still living in Teutoburg-Wald on the trees in some sense. It's not about the moralization, but it's basically about getting a mindset, a "can do" mentality. So the "yes we can" has become the word for China. So that's Chastuette from Nike. So basically China has this American, very, very euphoric, optimistic approach. You can shape things, and politics is a situation to change things. For me, as an old left-wing idealist, of course, it's very terrible that there is no social progress with all the progress. Today in the morning, when I'm reading all the angry media, I'm blinded by a line from the mirror, from the science resort. That's a very green, activist part of the resort, but with very good colleagues. And there is the inscription "Kinerschaft in 6 Monaten doppel zu viel Solarkraft wie Deutschland in 25 Jahren". So just to imagine the scaling. In six months, they have built up so much solar energy like Germany in 25 years. Why? And then you can see that the colleagues from the mirror, a little greeting here in the Hamburger Nachbarschaft, have also said very correctly, why? Because KI, what is so important to them, needs a lot of energy. And maybe you can say Paspo Toto, that's a topic that Daniel and I, of course, have always worked on afterwards, progress has to do with energy resources, with all possible energy resources. And the Chinese say either or, like us, but they say both as well. And that's also seen in solar energy. So they just build, if they decide we do something, then they practically build a whole desert, where the sun always shines. And then they raise the possibilities, which make sense in this area, of course, make further nuclear power plants. There are the mini reactors, which they will work on shortly. China has a mindset that we do that and are totally fixed on the operative. And at the same time, and I think that's very impressive, the evening yesterday in Hamburg, it sounded like the most beautiful Chinese restaurant in the Summhaus, directly at the main station. I think that was one of the first Chinese in Hamburg. And if you enjoy the traditional cuisine there, which is fantastic, then there is also a very proud self-awareness of the Chinese, about their cultural traditions, which cover every aspect of life wonderfully. And if you then contrast it with the debates that are held in Germany, and I have to say more, the Greens are always making the most of the prosperity, then I see at the press, look at us, that the Greens suggest to let the border control fall. That is, women's support, urban building and so on, the women and say, "But they want to punish cat-calling sharper." And then I think, in terms of the challenges we have, it is always interesting what happens in the rest of the world. And then the topics we talk about in Germany a lot yesterday, a woman, as always, super tattooed again in the middle of Berlin, with a total madness to the social security issues. And when I read that this morning, and was preparing for the podcast, I had a very weak moment when I thought, "Maybe we are simply too degenerated. Maybe we simply lack the awareness of how serious the situation is. And if we don't have a learning effect there, and we also talk about the EU, where I see it the same way, then the punishment in this globalized reality will just fall off. And I always look at the learning curves, the only learning curves that I just see have to do with the podcast, with the book, that I always like to say to people, "We have to do something now, but have we already reached any bang of the mainstream there?" No. In this case, I am a bit pessimistic today than Daniel is otherwise. I lack the awareness that we are running out of time, and we simply cut the bullshit, what my company would probably also say. This discussion is no longer possible. We really have other topics. Of course, as many points are now mentioned, many have already wanted to go into it. Solar industry is of course right in China. Let's take a step back. There is no way we can thank the German power plants, because we have made the state funding. Over 80 billion have been spent for supply and delivery, since Solar was not even capable of carrying. In principle, we have enabled the world, the Solar Industry. I would rather say that for every citizen, the world should actually pay a little bit for our climate goals, because the Germans have paid for them. So why don't the Chinese have the great capacities? There are two reasons. One reason is that they have of course set up industrial production. They have known that this is a thing that lives for mass production. If we have supplied local supplies here, they thought we would drain our supplies and that it would go well. In principle, we did not play the game. That was a game again, but they wanted us to play with it. We did not want to win. That is very simple. And in addition, you should not forget that the production of solar cells is very energy intensive. By the way, they need electricity around the clock. You can produce solar cells in electricity, you can produce solar cells in electricity. First of all, I would like to say that we have electricity, which does not mean to build large solar parks in the desert. Because we know that the ideal energy system has about 40% to 40% renewable energy and 60% different. In principle, this is the optimal system that we have for ourselves and that is cost-effective. You also wanted to know from me that we have a chance in the motto. I think we already have a chance, but we also have to buy a little time. And of course I thought about the last podcast again. You used it very strongly that we take care of the organs. According to the motto, what the Chinese do there is not possible. By the way, I am very clear with your opinion that it is not possible. In the background, I was asked, how is that actually? That is actually a Turkish-speaking people. Did you actually listen to criticism from Erdogan, a strong criticism of China? Of course I do not ask that, because I personally have not found anyone. And then I always have to ask the question, pick your battle. Then I say to the motto again, well, if the believers do not agree, why do you have to put it first on the agenda? You also heard from Wadepoel on the China trip. Is that really a goal or should we not just recognize it pragmatically? We are currently so convinced that we are understanding that we do not really talk about it, but rather make it major in the media, but rather in the conversation as a third agenda. That was not even an appeal from me. I find it only interesting for me, are all these moral estimates and who has seen the images from the Uyghur camp and that women were sterilized there. That is all terrible, I understand that. No, no, so as I said, nothing is more disgusting than moralism. I just say, if you want to judge morally about it, you have to be economically strong so that you can allow yourself to be moral. So my left father always told me, Ulf, if you want to change the world, you have to be as good as everyone else. That was, so to speak, left ambition and socialization. And I only say that the dystopian parts of this Chinese success story are so dystopian to me. I am not Annalena Baerbock or Wadepoel, who would be economically incompetent with great moral教ments, but I would show you that our moralism will only survive in this globalized economy if we show that it has a high functionality for the success of market economy. Morality that destroys market economy is not moral, but every moral that wants to pass globally has to be economically successful so that the Chinese say, they are so successful and look, it works with freedom. We just see that our form of liberalism has led to a self-destruction. We are in the eye of the best position for that. It will be in Hönysh, both in Moscow and also in China and probably also in parts of America. Look at the Germans, the dumbest energy end of the world, the great moralism, the great fear in every international conference, but they don't get anything. Let's talk about Uyghur horror, social scoring horror. Only with Sunday talks, if we don't impress the Chinese, but only if we challenge them on their Virtus.Political success course with great innovation. So I just wanted to, really, you won't hear any moral argument from me here, if it is not backed up by an economic delusion. The question was, yesterday we didn't have a chance. I just said earlier that we have a chance in some sectors. I think Europe has a chance when we take a step back. You just had to see it. We spoke to Prof. Freyja from Oxford with his book "Le Sanatese", which basically says that you need a certain level of freedom for innovation. And of course you have the question, "Shi restricts freedom in China very much." That means that we're watching, let's say, the explicit past politics and shouldn't necessarily say that it goes on like this. That they should stay innovative. Where I personally consider the probability is still high, but at least there is a chance from European point of view that the restriction of freedom is there to bring back the power of innovation. In the USA we have the topic, and there is more and more, scientists feel uncomfortable with the local government. There are certain chances, like in the visa policy, where you could say that Europe has a chance. Europe is, let's say, a positive number. First of all, it's a wonderful continent. We have a long tradition. We actually have relatively free freedom at the moment. We actually have property protection, even if there are some discussions. That means that Europe could offer a lot. Europe could say, "We won't be able to box ourselves so well anymore because the education system is so good that we get the talents out of the world. We create this environment." So there are chances. But the thing is, we really have to stop with some projects that simply don't work. For example, to be a leader in the climate policy, for everyone else, and to say, "My Bill Gates has also made a decision now, if others say we have other important goals, which is also true." If we really had a radical change of course, then Europe would have the chance. And that's the hope. I mean, that you say, "Okay, if the conditions change like this, if we say we want to get into the fight, if we want to play with them, not just to play, but to win, then Europe will have the chance." Because China is not all perfect, USA is not all perfect. And Europe has a lot to offer. And you can put up with that. The only question is, you shouldn't dissuade it. "Well, we can't do that." You just have to dissuade something. We have a chance to change something. If we don't change something, then we would simply be the museum of Europe. If we don't change, then we should learn all Chinese and should be the tourism hotspot of the world. And you just spoke about the Chinese restaurant. You know, Chinese food, then you love Chinese food. You don't just go to a burger restaurant for food. For the background, we just have to adapt accordingly. Yes, maybe we'll do the switch at this point. I think this appeal is clear. It actually covers itself with the name of our podcast. Why do we say, "Make Economy Great Again?" It's not an economic purpose. Instead, it basically means, dear left-wing listeners and listeners, that we as a country, in which human rights, sometimes I have to say, are still very valuable, are on a global market, and we are not in the moment, because the moralized hordes in the media, in the culture, in the politics, have completely trashed our competitive abilities. That also includes the green-black EU president, Mrs. von der Leyen. And I saw a very interesting video yesterday, where American tech entrepreneurs talked about the future of AI. And it was Mark Andresen who said, "If you don't have an AI strategy yet, then just do the exact opposite of what the EU does." He just looked at how in Europe leadership in AI is understood as leadership in regulation. And you can see the other American tech entrepreneurs. It was a Zoom, call, wordcast-like conversation about artificial intelligence and the future in the possibilities. And in the process with Europe, for the first time there is a tone from America, which is a mixture of being completely amused by our loss, but also a kind of friendly smile, with which you register how we actually have one chance after another. And at this point, I would like to refer to the first of the two European talks by J.D. Vance, his speech in Paris for all those who haven't heard yet, everything he said there. We see the revolution as a chance for more entrepreneurial, creative creation, and of course also for more freedom. And he has made sure that in Europe, especially when it comes to the background, how can we regulate this revolution? And he made it clear that nothing will happen with a regulation priority before innovation. And that is now the mirror that we also, I have told you several times, that we can always talk to big tech entrepreneurs again and again. And that's how Europe is perceived. And I think, to be honest, well, we can, as a tourist guide in Nuremberg, you can see in Smagendorf how it is going to be, but it's actually not nice to be laughed at with suffering. And that's why the smart Catarina Reiche, our budget minister, thought maybe I would reactivate a circle of European budget ministers to say what we can do industriically. After years of the "irrims" and "wirrens" of German economic policy with Habeck, you are already grateful for that. However, here as well, I also feel the right belief, as in Europe in the moment, that there can be something reasonable when it comes out, if it is not about a really serious community and there is also a passionate idea to reform it strongly. So, some other work circle. What can it bring, Daniel? First of all, it can bring very little. Second of all, I have to say, Habeck is already putting up an Alpmaier at work, because it was also not particularly good for the budget ministry, which is also very planned economically. I repeat again and again the beautiful story that he wanted to make to sectoral CO2 goals and economic performance. He wanted to plan over the next few years, where he thought he would have to reactivate the plan of the CDDR again. So, for every reason, this is already long-term and budgetary freedom. It is difficult in Germany. Industry policy. I am not a big fan of industry policy, because I am aware of the fact that the state should not choose the winners, but the state should take care of it for good ramifications. We have to be more constructive, more conservative and reformed in order to reduce the costs of the failure. So, we should take care of all these issues. Good ramifications. And then I would say, if you really want to make industry policy, then I would look at China. In China, as I find it interesting, they have said, for example, Electro. We like Electro. We have done it here through state funding. We have mainly created a market. They have said, we create this market. We buy so many cars. You can only drive the city from Electro. There are ramifications for which there is a large market. And then we have a most brutal competition between the providers. And the brutal competition has, of course, the negative effect that there are overcapacities. Because of that, you have lower prices and you have even more pressure on innovation. And that leads to the fact that the products are very good. And then you don't only have capacity for your home market and you can also export what the strategy is. So I think, if we set right ramifications, if we say that we want to come to certain areas, we create market, we create ramifications, then we give you the solution. Then it is really good. You know, John F. Kennedy didn't say how to get to the moon. He said, I want to go to the moon. And if you then say, there are ramifications, I create financing, then that's okay. I think that this can work in the EU. I'm a little skeptical, because you immediately have the national interests sitting on the table. So, because you're talking about the Risto, do you really think that the French won't buy French when it comes to Risto? I don't think so. The French will buy French. That means you always have the interests that swing with it, because Europe is not a state, but an association of several states, which is a chance. And that's why I think the answer would be Europe would be more like Switzerland to develop, like the Cantone Switzerland, and to further further the competition. That's why I'm skeptical of what industry politics is. Nevertheless, I think it's a good topic, because it speaks for the fact that other topics are being discussed on the EU level. But do you see Catarina Reich, who we have lied to here often enough, because she at least trusts herself outside of the mainstream in her party, who is in a cage out of fear, whatever the fire wall is, ideologically, in a fearful connection with, above all, political leftist parties, do you think that she even has the lever in Europe? So, back to what I said in China, now someone from a proud, European-dominated, brilliant people's economy can say a little bit, "Yes, we in Germany show how it has to go, and Europe only has to follow the German path." That was also a long self-understand. Like I said, my Danish customs have always been very amused by this, in some cases, arrogant tone of German. Or is there actually someone who has to say "We need in Germany a more reformed Europe than we get as a country ourselves?" That Catarina Reich, even when the compass and coordinates are properly sorted, I wouldn't doubt it at all, but I think the times are over where Germany, for example, other countries like Poland, which are economically so much more successful, even the Danes, even Spain, and even the French grow stronger than we do. You've made this up, but don't we have to sit there quietly because we're not in the speaking position to demand European reforms that we don't even get in our own country? Or do I see something wrong? No, you're not wrong. Maybe it's the attempt to build pressure in Europe so that it has more backwind in Germany. So you're using Europe as an internal policy, right? Yes, I think she visited a day before the European minister to deal with the nuclear energy. There were also critical criticism of her. I mean, she's trying to show herself, maybe on the European level, there is still rational politics in Germany, with the politicians in Germany who do that. You can already see that. So basically everything is positive, but of course it's clear that it would be desirable. We would have more own reforms. Our energy policy has failed all over Europe, not just us. We talked about it, not the Swiss, the minister, how she made fun of you, how she talked about Haberka, how she can also set the physics out of force. We basically don't have the role that we can say, look, we are the master students. We have made massive mistakes. But we have made other mistakes on the European level, that it's both to be packed and gives me backwind for former people in Germany. What should we do? I mean, Mr. Warnefohl, I would have asked Warnefohl, who would have built Berlin again? We would have said that in the 2nd century. No one can live there anymore. So you see what happened there? That's how brilliant the leader title is today, on the one side of the world. I asked him if he had given 1948 "All you can eat" bifes and free beer. I don't think he did. I just want to say, you can see, there are enough conquerors who don't want to recognize reality in my opinion. And for that reason, I think it's probably the only reason, because who has the support? I mean, you can count on the Chancellor. You can't count on the coalition partners. You are pretty lonely in your role. And for that reason, you probably have to try to form other alliances, if you really want to change something. If you really want to consider it, that you really have an honest opinion about the situation in Germany, something good to do. I mean, all listeners and listeners know that. So, if we marry someone in the cabinet, then that's quite right, as I always think, Katharina Reiche, together with Kastenbildberger, what digitalization is about, why? Because she, at least, on the semantical, cultural level of her political work, shows up what she has to do. She said at the social security system, that she has always been politically correct, that she is right. I'm just afraid, and then we come back to a topic, for the third time, that I have to try. I think we know the rest of Europe negatively the way. And, to be honest, the Chinese Americans, Donald Trump, were also funny, if I remember correctly, before the UN. We are helpful for globalization as an incredible example. The German way, that used to be a bright way, full of admiration from all over the world, is now, in a certain way, how stupid can you be, look at Germany, how self-destructive can you be, and look at all of them, look at Germany, how fast can it go, as a man of the example, this wonderful German saying, "Hochmut kommt von den Fallen", can you just look at Germany, the numbers are constant, we have it for three years, stagnation, and maybe we switch, because I'm looking out here, at the Binnenalster, and see the most beautiful city, and also the proudest shopping city in Hamburg, and if the rest of the world asks, how could this happen, and I would never be the face expression of this infinitely smart woman, Condoleezza Rice, when she asked me, energywender, how is that possible? And I, in my lazy French school English, you tried, I didn't vote for them, because my first sentence was, to create a little air, and then I had to explain to me an excitingly looking at how the Germans come to turn off their nuclear power in such a situation, and I have it yesterday, partly understood, so Hamburg, who doesn't know Hamburg, around the Binnenalster, are probably the most beautiful residential areas of Germany, intact buildings, wills against townhouses, as you only know them from Mayfair and Kensington, and in this city, which was also one of the richest in Europe, but which has always been very strange for social democrats to have to rely on the great Ole van Beuys, who once made it into this social democratic fall, why? Because the social democracy here, at least the old one, which no longer exists, Foscherraut, Donani, Helmut Schmidt, started his political career here, was extremely pragmatic. And indeed, he had a good deal with the merchants here, and he had a good deal with the port workers, to say something vulgar, and as everywhere in Germany is the tip of the social democracy in a socially democratic city, like Hamburg, especially fatal. And that's why Changer has once again a great disappointment as a minister president, who thought, well, they were doing nothing at the quorum, and warned, and saw, that's what I have to deal with. And I have always said, why these rich, rich, rich, rich, rich, rich Hamburgers who had all the possibilities to mobilize something, why were they so quiet? Why didn't there be any protests? And then yesterday, in the most beautiful part of Hamburg, in Harveste Rude, I drove along the line path, so let's say, there's the Premium 1A+ with a star system. And then I said, I've got it! There, the most beautiful villas and city townhouses are located. I would say, the fun begins at 8 million euros. Directly on the outskirts, so they sit on the water and only have a street in front of them. Before, before the climate policy, there was a street where Kredi and Kledi could stay with their Kia's and Skoda's. Now it's a bike path and only passengers can ride in. What leads to that? There are only Andrazid Metallic Minis, G-Class, 9/11 and Range Rover. Because they can ride in and I said, for them it makes sense, the same Harveste Rude path right on the outskirts, so the most expensive villas, I would say, with Starrenberger City in all of Germany and the brilliant demotivation of the most rich, which could have made it economically viable. We do your streets to a kind of private street. We all can ride in a bike path, but the only ones who can push in with their bikes are you, because you're an Anlieger, how do you find the energy band? And then I thought, maybe that's how a shoe will turn out and then I understood it and to be a bit more serious yesterday at the lecture and afterwards and before in the talks, the doubt is already big because everyone sees the threatening prosperity and destruction and I think at the end of the day activism, of course, comes from the deca-dence and the degeneration of the rich in Hamburg, the rich, literally green worlds, the Rheinschrober-Muttis, the children with the Rheinschrober or the Waldhoff-Kieter, a Harveste-Hude or wherever you put them, of course there are those who compensate for a bad conscience and then of course there is the hate of those who haven't achieved anything in life, who live around it and the feeling of prosperity and destruction is called especially the real rich and I think that's also not a lot of calculation but I will never forget the view of the bicycle path at Leimfahrt because I thought probably it's the German citizens so short-sighted to say, somehow it ends for us always Daniel, how do you see it? We know that in the opposite of what is usually the green then have you heard of the 51% 51% for the climate? Yes, but where can I make it? We talked about it, I mean, it brings the climate nothing, zero, it costs a lot of money, it costs a lot of prosperity I could imagine that in a few years that also leads to a political mood when the industry is gone, when the economy is bad, when the State House is developing in Hamburg in Munich, then I can imagine that the political mood is cutting and then it will be uncomfortable to talk about it because we will of course experience radicalization, which is completely unnecessary but that fits together again you asked at the beginning, do we have a chance against China, do we have a chance against China if we pack the relevant topics and don't make such a fuss? You have mentioned maybe a second we are both from Berlin but we travel a lot and one of the numbers in Hamburg is of course the most beautiful city as we all know, but also a very, very beautiful city is Munich and there, right now, because of the media, there is a really impressive balance of the red-green city government that is in Munich, it is only the capital of the country so it has not like here in Hamburg, the rank of a state parliament, but it's just that a classical city council and since red-green is ruled there is the forgiveness that has grown dramatically why? because there too in this just as well-being city like Hamburg Munich, the people also like red-green waves also, by the way, in Bogenhausen I was there twice and there the Burgertum is divided in Bückbürgertum and Feitbürgertum and the Bückbürgertum in particular and this is a gender study if any leftist socialist, maybe Amina See at the L.M.U. is trying to examine where comes the negation of marriage women who have found a very rich family, marriage luck then green waves, at least that was told to me by many people, also marriage men about their own marriage women tells, yes, the world green, I can't change it and so on this kind of self-destruction is that particularly bourgeois, at the end so Thomas Mann-like that you can say actually the Burgertum that it is so good for him that the NOE is so big that you just say, oh you know what now we're going to destroy it is that maybe the bourgeoisie of all and we are not bourgeois in a happy way or are we the real bourgeois I don't know, Daniel, help me you can't help me I mean, let's think about it of course, they have translated the expenses they have translated the debt I mean, there were 600 million debt in 2019 2025 are 7.5 billion and I have looked there are prognoses that say that by 2028 the debt will rise to 11 billion for a city yes, well, I mean, now I would say we should be very careful in Berlin and we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful I mean, we should be very careful I mean, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful in Berlin, we should be very careful 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