Winnie the Pooh: Silly Old Bear

This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human. How do you know that cloud won't become manipulative? This is a constant worry and you can actually catch the model thinking I think X is actually true but I'm going to tell the user why. I'm Walter Isaacson, I'm my new podcast, The Builders. I'm going inside the minds of the people shaping our future. Come to the Builders starting October 13th on the iHeart radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hamza and I'm Martin and we're the hosts of Out of Character. The best podcast in the world. It's really funny. You're really? Yeah, yeah. I think statistics just came back and we're one of the funniest two guys with mics and that's pretty hard to beat right now but it's true actually. Why should people listen to us tell them? Well, we're trendy, we're funny, we're topical, you get all your news here. You know, the facts but maybe our takes on it and everything in between. So listen out of character on the iHeart radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. It's all just a joke. What is the value of these women? I'm Bridget Armstrong, back with season two of the podcast Curse of Miss America. We're talking to participants whistleblowers and people who say Miss America didn't live up to their promises. He looks and he goes, "You don't look like you suffered in the eating disorder." I never received a scholarship I needed to pay for my student loans. Maybe this is the meta question for the podcast. What is Miss America at this point? Listen to the Curse of Miss America on the iHeart radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio. And welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too and we're continuing on with our endless nostalgia talk, which is fine by me. Were you into Winnie the Pooh? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was raised on the Disney version. I don't know if I ever had any of the original story books, but as I became an adult I grew pretty fond of those. So, you know, every night you and me and I will read a couple to each other. Oh, that's nice. I'm kidding. Well, that sounded like a nice evening. It really would, for sure. And maybe we will start because I was reading some of these again and I'm like, "Yeah. God, these are sweet." Yeah. It's sweet stuff. I don't remember. I guess I was into it a little bit, but it doesn't stand out as like a hugely like formative piece of culture from my childhood. What did you think about it rereading some of the stuff though today? I mean, the same, it's just wonderful stuff, and it's kind of like a little bit of a bummer, like the real life stuff. Yeah. So much so. I'm like, maybe we should just skip that part because I've watched that biopic or biopic, depending on your pronunciation. Which one? Which one? Good by Christopher Robin. Okay. And it is harsh. Yeah. I mean, that's the real story. I think Disney made the Christopher Robin movie that seemed, I didn't see that one. The one with you and McGregor, but that seemed to be very much a disnified version of the real Christopher Robin's adulthood. I see. So this was about, they focused, easily half the movie on his very, very early life. I didn't say about two, three quarters of the movie. Maybe five, eights. We'll just say that. But it was like based on an author, like a really exhaustive biography from the 90s. And man, it did not pull punches like it was tough to watch. And like the mom, Daphne, is not treated sympathetically at all. She's essentially if there's a villain in the movie, it's her. Yeah. I totally agree. Yeah. Well, at any rate, before we get off on that, we should probably talk about the celebrated "Bunny the Pooh" and hopefully you can continue on separating the art, the work of magic that AA Milleen created from, you know, the real life behind the scene stuff because that's real life. Winnie the Pooh is not real life and that's what makes it so magnificent. That's right, but it was birthed from a real life thing, which is, I mean, the story starts out incredibly sweet. And it starts out in Canada in 1914 when a soldier shows up at basic training and has an orphan black bear cub. And this is Lieutenant Harry Colburn, who was a veterinarian from Winnipeg, shout out Winnipeg. Yeah. City we went to for the very first time on tour this summer. Shout out Winnipeg. That a great time. But he apparently, as the story goes, got this bear from a train platform on his way to the military base, it was for sale by a hunter who had killed the bear's mom. So he brings this bear along, who was a little girl bear, by the way. And that's kind of set me down the path of like, wait a minute, was Winnie the Pooh, a girl bear? No. And apparently not. So we'll kind of get to that switch. But because he was from Winnipeg, he'd nicknamed this real bear Winnie and took this real bear to like the barracks and it became like a little base bear. Yeah. That's so candid to you, you know? Oh, totally. I love it. Also, in the version of the story of my head, Lieutenant Harry Colburn left that hunter, a bloody pulp, just barely clinging to life. Yeah, sure. So Colburn is at the base and he's like called off to World War One. And that's, you know, even Canadian friendliness has its levels or like, no, you can't take the bear with you. So he, because he was stationed in London, he took it to the London Zoo and said, can you hang on to my bear for me for a few years until I come back? And the London Zoo said sure. And in the meantime, while he was gone, Winnie the bear became a huge sensation because she had been raised around humans. She was very gentle. Yeah. So much so that kids were able to interact with her, you know, smartly or otherwise. But by the time Colburn came back from World War One, he found like, Winnie was so beloved he was like, I think you belong to London now, not me. Yeah. And especially with that cute voice that this bear had, you know, so now we got to go to the story of A.A. Mill, the author of these books, Alan Alexander Mill. He was a writer before Winnie the Pooh came along. He edited a humor magazine called Punch. He was also sent off to World War One in 1914. And he came back a mess. And especially if you see this, this movie, like, if that movie is the truth and it seems like it is because it's based on that exhaustive book, then he had a pretty severe case of PTSD after being entered and seeing the horrors of war. Yes. And it was very much, his view of the world was really wrecked as well. Like he just couldn't understand how people could send other people off to die like the way he saw people die. And yeah, he had what they called it the time shell shock. And he, like you said, he had worked for Punch magazine. He kind of established himself, but he continued to write and he tried writing other stuff. He wrote a play that was turned into a silent movie. And he was an essayist as well. I think it wasn't until about the early to mid-1920s that he really found his calling and he found his calling after he had his one and only child, Christopher Robin. Yeah. I mean, I kind of assume most people knew that Christopher Robin was the real kid's name, but if you didn't know, surprise, you can't make that kind of name up. You can't. He had a nickname, which was Billy Moon. He was born in 1920. And like you said, once he had this little boy, he started writing children's poetry. And in 1923, wrote a poem called Vespers, which mentioned his son, Christopher Robin by name and the little stuffed bear that he had. It was a realised stuffed bear. And if you're ever in New York City, go to the New York City Public Library because all these, his little original stuffed animals that these stories were based on are sitting there. And it's wonderful to see. Yeah. Under a glass case. And if you go at the right time, after closing, you can hear them banging on the glass thing. Yeah. It's funny. I couldn't remember where. I saw those when I was doing the research and I was like, I know I saw those somewhere and I couldn't remember what museum. And then when, who helped us with this? Julia? Yeah. Julia. This is Julia Joint. The Julia Joint. Yeah. When she said that it was in New York Public Library, I remembered. Did you say, by God, that's right. I did. But you know, when you have a little gnawing thing that you don't know the answer to and it's so satisfying to have that memory, even though it wasn't a memory. Yeah. It's called my normal life, but I don't get the sad as fine remembering it's just I have to just give it up. I'm sorry to hear that, but I'll send you a little stuff, Bear. Okay. Fair enough. I have a question for you though, Chuck, I sure think you might be able to answer this. You said that Winnie, when he was a girl, Bear, Winnipeg, the Canadian Bear. And Winnie the Pooh is not a girl. So how did Winnie the Pooh get the name Winnie? You're being coy. But I'll play along. You know, like I said, he had this real stuff, Bear. He got it as a, I think a one-year-old on his first birthday from his mom, Daphne. And he nicknamed this Bear, or he named it, I guess, Edward. So right out of the gate, this bear. is gendered. And then later on, the name Winnie comes around because he meets that real bear that we were talking about, Winnipeg, at the London Zoo, nickname Winnie. So he changed Edward to Winnie and just said, I guess you're still a boy. So yeah, I think in the movie or somewhere as dad said, well, is he a boy or is he a girl? I thought he was a boy. He said, he's neither. He's a bear, which is just a great Christopher Robinism. Yeah, I agree. I knew. So Edward for a bear is not that odd. It's actually kind of cute. But I knew a man once who had a dog named Jason. And I still to this day think that's the oddest dog name I've ever heard. Yeah. The real human names for dogs can be funny. And I think Jason is one of them, but they're definitely human names that are more that are funnier than others. Jason's pretty high up there. It is, but I don't think the guy was being funny, which made it even stranger. Yeah, I guess you're right. What's a funny name, real name for a dog? I mean, my in-laws had a dog named Josh. I don't think I ever told you that. No. Yeah. They always know their dog's real names like Josh and Toby and I can't really see. Josh, that's a surprising one too. Yeah. How about it? It's no Jason though. How about Lois? See, no, that's yeah, that's almost that's starting to be purpose purposefully silly or Elizabeth. That's a weird dog name. That is a weird dog name. But I could also see some real fru-foo like oh yeah, Parmaranian or something. I almost said Parmaranian. Look at us. So okay, I think we were talking about Winnie the Pooh at some point, right? That's right. It went from Edward to Winnie after he met the real Winnipeg bear at the London Zoo. Well, while we're on it, what the heck is the poo then? Well, poo I think came from, he was on vacation, the young Christopher Robin Millen, and there was a swan that he nicknamed poo that he fed every morning. And apparently, as the story goes, when the swan did not show up, he would just say poo like I don't care if you're coming or not, even though obviously he did. And so I guess it just sort of morphed into Winnie the Pooh, hyphenated at first. Yeah, pretty cute. Yeah. One of the all-time great names too. Like, I think that is in no small part one of the reasons for Winnie the Pooh's belovedness that just is such a great name. I agree. So as we said, AA Millen was definitely suffering from PTSD. And he was back in London, he was trying to, you know, pick up his career again. And it was just those two things were not going very well together. So he decided that what would be best for him and in turn his family was to leave the city and move to Sussex, which is I guess it's called the home county. It's like a excerb of London. It's not that far away, but it's pretty rural from what I understand. And he bought Kochford Farm near this forest was just exactly the kind of impetus they needed to come up with the Hundred Acre Woods. Thanks to Foray's with his son, which was he says in the movie and I totally buy it, but these were the happiest times of his life making up games and stories with his, you know, three, four, five-year-old son walking through Ashtown Forest. Yeah. And I hate to issue a correction, but I know we're going to hear from listeners. If you don't correct Hundred Acre Wood. Singular. Thank you for thank you. That's absolutely true. A small thing, but it jumped out at me. Thank you. Well, yeah, if it jumped out at you, we were definitely going to get some mean emails. It'd be so stupid. I know. It's not an ass. How did you mention the the other stuffed animals? I know I mentioned, you know, all of them being in the New York City public library, but all of those characters that would eventually end up in these books. He had his little stuffies. He had a little pig. He had a little donkey. He had a tiger and a kangaroo and that bear, which is just all this stuff couldn't be any sweeter. No, it's true. That little piglet one is adorable. Yeah. Very much. So, Mill, you said he wrote Vespers and that apparently became quite popular. It was just super sweet. It was definitely along the lines of what he would later write for Winnie the Pooh. The first thing he did was start writing children's poetry. And then, as I said, as he started hanging out with his son in the woods, just having fun time with him, he would bring a little Christopher Robin would bring his stuffed animals along on these walks. And they became like characters in the woods themselves. So, the woods very quickly became their home in these stories they were making up. And what were their names? We haven't even said these yet. I don't think so. You've got piglet. You have E or the sad donkey. Tigger, the hyperactive tiger, but actually he's not really tiger. He's a tigger. He's one of a kind. Yeah. Kanga, the incredibly sweet and patient mom, her Joey Ru, who's a lot of fun to have around. And then, of course, Winnie the Pooh, the Willie Nilly silly old bear. Oh, goodness. It's just too much for me. So, I got to take your break if that's all right. Yeah, for sure. All right. We'll be right back everybody with more on Winnie the Pooh. If there's a million times more digital intelligence than there is biological intelligence, it's hard to imagine humans being in control in that scenario. I'm Walter Isaacson, host of the new podcast, The Builders. Right now, we're living through an AI arms race. So, I went directly to the people shaping that future. Elon Musk, Derio Amadei, Alex Carp, Feifei Lee, Palmer Lucky, because I wanted to understand what the most consequential builders believe, what they feel and where they think this is all headed. Silicon Valley is always saying the cliche thing about the way to predict the future is to create it. Well, yeah, it's up to us. But when you say us, who's us? Is it 400 people that you know in Silicon Valley? Is it me down here in New Orleans? They're brilliant, controversial, and they're already shaping the future. The question is, who's imagination do we want to live in? This is going to determine the fate of nations and economies and the future of humanity. Listen to The Builders, on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast, or ever get your podcasts. I'm Hamza, and I'm Martin, and we're the hosts of Out of Character. It's a podcast. I know there's a lot of them to listen to these days. How are you going to get to us? Well, there's a specific reason why you should listen to us. We are the best podcast in the entire world. I swear. I know, bold. But why don't we list some of the things we might talk about on a regular episode? So sometimes we'll talk about, I don't know, the Uber driver we just had. And how nice they were, or if we tip them or not, come and find out. Sometimes we'll talk about that weird news story from last week. It's the one you're thinking about. Trust me. Or maybe we'll talk about music and what's happening in the underground, or drama music, or TV shows, or the Med Gala, and what the actors wore. What we're saying is we're not afraid to talk about everything under the sun. And if you want to see what that's like, come join us. It's a place where everyone can hang out, anyone, wherever you're from, whatever you're like, you're welcome. Listen out of character from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Pods, or wherever you get your podcasts. But more than a century, Miss America sold the country of fantasy. Well, are you ready, ladies? Okay, here we go. But over the past decade, the crown's been slipping. They said, goodbye to swimsuits now, hello to lawsuits. I'm Bridget Armstrong. Last season, we took you inside the world of America's next top model. Now I'm back with season two of this podcast, Curse of Miss America, investigating the rise, fall, and uncertain future of one of America's most iconic institutions. The Miss America pageant. I never received scholarship. I need to pay for my student loans. He looks and he goes, you don't look like you suffered in the eating disorder. It's great, but looks too ethnic. It's a story the Miss America organization really doesn't want us to tell. An exploitation of our Miss Americas is treated by the Miss America organization as an attack on Miss America itself. Listen to the Curse of Miss America on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. All right, everyone. We're back with more sweetness. It's Christmas Eve 1925, and the London evening news publishes the short story and introduces the world to Little Poo. It's not the wrong sort of bees, and it would be the first chapter of a short story collection, or I guess just a story collection. They were short stories, right? They were short stories, sure. All right, great. That published as a unit the next year, and almost all of the characters were in this first group, and they all had their distinct personalities. As we'll see later, people extrapolated on maybe what the meaning of these personalities were, but what were they like? Well there were two also that we didn't make. and Rabbit and Owl, and that was because there was no Rabbit or Owl stuffed animal they came later. But they were in this first book. Tigger was the only one who didn't make his first appearance in the first story book. He came out in the second one. But Piglet, he was always very scared and nervous and worried and anxious. Rabbit was a perfectionist. He was very much. I never really caught on to his character quite as much. But I just know that he was very much preoccupied with everything going right, if I'm not mistaken. Owl was one of those guys who likes to hear himself talk, emergency stuff. The other characters, one of the poo frequently talked about how he didn't have a brain or he was filled with fluff or something like that. And so the other characters are taking whatever Owl says is correct, even though it's sometimes wildly off. Yeah, for sure. I think you already mentioned earlier that Eor was, of course, sad. And then Kanga was obviously the mom a very nurturing character. And you got Rue who was a little. He was a little rambunctious baby. He was like the tiny Tim, just super sweet and cute, just having him present was fun. Yeah. And that was the wrong sort of bees. And then you mentioned the house on poo corners when Tigger comes along. And we should talk about the wrong sort of bees because it kind of just lays out a template for, I guess, things to come. And it's just so gosh darn cute too. It's so cute. And it sets the tone for like these personalities and what readers are in for, right? Yes. So in it, the whole thing and actually the book ends the same way in the opposite direction, but Christopher Rob in the real boy comes down the stairs dragging his bear by the arm and asks his father to tell him a story. We'll tell his bear a story. And that's how the whole thing starts. That Winnie the Pooh is sitting under a sign that says Mr. Sanders. And that's the only mention that's ever made of it as far as I can tell. It's just such a weird little detail. But he starts trying to go for honey because he realizes he hears some bees. And to him, the only purpose of bees is to make honey for him to eat. Yeah. Is that honey pot always getting them into trouble? And it starts off right off the bat in book one. So he wants to climb up the street. Obviously get into that honey pot. A branch breaks and he falls down and to a little prickly, prickly bush. And he's like, all right, I've got a new idea. I wish I could do the voice. But he says he's got a new idea. He wants to become a cloud and trick these bees. So he decides to become a dark cloud by rolling himself in mud, bars a blue balloon from his friend Christopher Robbins. We can float up. And he's like, this is going to work. They're going to be scared of this dark cloud. And I'm going to get that honey pot. Yes. But the bees don't seem to be buying it. And so he asked Christopher Robbins to go get his umbrella and walk underneath Poo with the umbrella out saying, it looks like rain to help fool the bees even further. That still doesn't work. But now Poo realizes that he's stuck up there because if he if he just let's go with the balloon, he's going to fall and it's going to hurt. That's right. And the title wrong sort of bees comes from the fact that the bees don't buy into his plan. And Poo says these are the wrong sort of bees, which is adorable. So Christopher Robbins helps him out. She shoots a hole in that balloon. And he drifts down safely. Doesn't learn a lesson, which is a very much established sort of thing for Winnie the Pooh. Like he's still going to go after the honey pot a million times in the future. So that was the first one. That was the one that premiered in the London Evening Times on Christmas Eve, 1925. And that was the first chapter in that book. And the other ones are super cute too. Like there's one where Poo goes to visit rabbit and is Warren. And he takes too much advantage of rabbit's hospitality and start eating condensed milk and honey. But he doesn't want to make a nuisance of himself. So he very politely tells rabbit no need to get me any bread. I'll just eat the condensed milk and honey as is. And he gained so much weight that he can't get back out the hole to rabbits Warren. And he gets stuck and has to stay there for a week while he goes on a diet until he swims down enough to be pulled out. Yeah, there's a lot of food and gluttony related storylines with Winnie. For sure. For sure. But he's also adorable. And one of the other things that's so adorable to me is the way that Christopher Robin looks at Poo and sees Poo. He very frequently thinks to himself silly old bear. And it's just such like a loving tender feeling that's just evoked in just that little phrase that he thinks of him and calls him sometimes. And it's just super cute. I love it. So I don't know if we've gotten across this stuff is really cute. It is. Okay, so sugary sweet. So we should talk about the illustrations a little bit because they have become just completely iconic. It was an illustrator name EH Shepherd. And they're very, you know, it's nothing fancy. It's pretty straight forward stuff. I don't think they became color until 1931. Is that right? I didn't see that anywhere. I saw a couple references to it, but all I ever saw were black and white, like just pencil or just line illustrations uncolored. Yeah, it's somewhere near. So we'll get to it. I think it was the early 1930s. But yeah, initially black and white. And again, nothing, nothing fancy going on. Very simple sort of shapes and lines. Shepherd also had gone to World War One and had a pretty rough go of it. And it seems like, and you know, this isn't the movie as well, that England just really sort of post-war England needed this sweetness in their lives. Exactly. That's one reason why it's positive. It became so popular so quickly. This was like an enormous sensation, pretty much out of the gate, as we'll see. And I think that's also why a lot of people point to it as being just as popular a hundred years on, you know, it is just people just need that kind of sweet like way of living and looking at life, you know, without being bold over by it at every turn, you know, just kind of saying that's life. Yeah. Keep going and be positive. Yeah, there's some good simple messages in all these books. He originally modeled the drawings on the real stuff the animals from Christopher Robin, except when he got to the final version of Winnie, that came from inspiration. That was inspired by his own kid's teddy bear. He was a little chubby or I think then Christopher Robbins. That was a good move. Real doll. Yeah, not his real doll. You know what I'm saying. Right. He also had to like I said, there wasn't a rabbit or an owl doll. So he had to use live models with Christopher Robin holding them still on the table, holding them down so they wouldn't wriggle too much or get away. That reminds me of if you look, I might have said this before at some point, if you look at baby pictures of my brother, you will notice that my mother's hand is in the photo propping him up because my brother was so round he would roll over and in old and mills portrait. So we have a lot of baby pictures of Scott with my mom's hand in there. He's like a weeble that a wobble will fall down. Yeah, and now we can't gain a pound, you know, so thanks for that. Yeah. One other thing about E.H. Shepherd that stuck out to me is in that the wrong sort of bees that first chapter where Christopher Robin shoots the balloon so that the air slowly comes out, so poo can come down safely to the ground. If you look at his gun, it's a pop gun. There's like a cork on a string hanging out of it, which I thought was a good little touch from E.H. Shepherd. And that was like the kind of thing that he would have done because again, this whole thing is like to be the antithesis or the antidote to the war that Europe just went through. And I think that's evidence of how they were trying to make things feel. Yeah, a bazooka would have been completely inappropriate. It would like smoke coming out. Yeah. That would be weird. If you think that some of this original stuff is very valuable, you'd be right because in 2018, the original 100-acre wood map that Shepherd hand drew sold at auction for $568,761, which set a record for a single book illustration. And then just last year in 2025, someone paid 120 or close to 120 grand for a collection of mills early drafts and poems, illustrations, stuff like that. And apparently there was some notes to Shepherd from Millen that says the illustrations were very poor. Not cool. So that hand drawn map of the 100-acre wood that went for 600 K. I was looking at it and it's purported to have been drawn with scare quotes by Christopher Robin with the help of E.H. Shepherd because it says drawn by me. And then it says Mr. Shepherd helped like HELPD. So interesting. Yeah. That makes it kind of cute. Yeah. Once again, cuteness abounds with all these sad, sad adults trying to work their way through their war trauma. Agreed. And again, like we said, there's some other bittersweet to add this to it as well behind the scenes. But before we get to that, I said that this was like a huge, huge phenomenon right out of the gate. I think it sold 200,000 copies in Great Britain and the United States by the end of the year, which is even more impressive when you realize that it came out in October. That is unheard of at the time. On the level of what Mickey Mouse would soon be, I think steamboat Willie came out around the same time, but I don't think was quite as big as Winnie the Pooh was. Winnie the Pooh became the first mass-marketed children's character. Thanks to a guy named Steven Slesinger who bought the Canadian and US rights in 1930. Yeah, he paid $1,000 plus royalties. I'm not sure how that worked. I was trying to get more detail, but it's hard to find stuff about these old deals. Could this number be correct or did Julia already Westeg that number up? I don't think so. I could see it being correct. I'm going to blame Julia if this is wrong. But within a year of purchasing the rights to Pooh and company, apparently he was making in 1931 dollars, $50 million a year on Merch and Media, which would be over a billion dollars a year in today money. I mean, he put it on absolutely everything and licensed it to a lot of people to do more than just make toys with, to make little animated shorts or make records that were the stories acted out, that kind of stuff. That is a lot of money, but Julia is usually pretty good about saying in today dollars or something when she means that. What I tried to do was look up Slesinger's net worth when he died. They didn't have information on that kind of stuff because I think he died in the 1950s, maybe. He was well known in the business for merchandising and buying rights to a lot of characters. There's a really long detailed, I don't even know all the details, story of the rights and how that worked over the years because Millen died in 1956 and left the rights to his widow through a trust and to his widow in three organizations, the Westminster School, the Royal Literary Fund and the Garrett Club. Disney bought the rights from the widow at least that she controlled in 61 and struck a deal with the other three organizations to pay them out semi-annually. Then I think in 2001, Disney bought it outright from those other entities for 350 million bucks. The article went on and on about more nuance and subtleties over the years and lawsuits and all this crazy stuff when you're dealing with hundreds of millions of bucks. Long story short, Disney ultimately acquired all the rights because I think Walt Disney's daughter really loved Winnie the Pooh and he was like, I'll buy it for you then. Yeah, she said, "Get it for me, daddy. I want it." I don't think we mentioned the real Christopher Robin voiced Christopher Robin on those early records and radio shows, right? Yes. He became a overnight sensation. His dad became a celebrated literary sensation overnight as well because not just kids, but adults loved Winnie the Pooh right out of the gate as well. Yes, they became a huge smash hit in the toast of England at least if not further, which became problematic for them, for sure. I say we take a break and we'll come back and talk about some of those problems after all the break. Let's do it. Okay. So I went directly to the people shaping that future. Elon Musk, Derio Amade, Alex Carr, Feifei Lee, Palmer Lucky, because I wanted to understand what the most consequential builders believe, what they feel, and where they think this is all headed. Silicon Valley is always saying the cliché thing about the way to predict the future is to create it. Listen to The Builders, on the iHot Radio App, Apple Podcast, or ever get your podcasts. I'm Hamza, and I'm Martin, and we're the host of Out of Character. It's a podcast. I know there's a lot of them going around, but why should you listen hours? Well, we're only the best podcast in the entire world, and we talk about pretty much everything under the sun. For example, music we're listening to, underground music, trending music, drama in music worlds. Yes, sometimes we even talk about just everyday mundane situations in our lives, like the cool Uber driver we just had, or the food we just say that is surprisingly delicious. Or we'll talk about the Med Gala and the looks that they wore. Are they awesome? Are they trendy? Come find out. Because our opinion matters. And so does yours. And this is a place where all of our minds can come together and connect. So what are you waiting for? Come connect with us. Listen Out of Character from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Pods, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more than a century, Miss America sold the country of fantasy. Okay, here we go. They said, "Goodbye to swimsuits, now, hello to lawsuits." I'm Bridget Armstrong. Now I'm back with season two of this podcast, Curse of Miss America. Investigating the rise, fall, and uncertain future of one of America's most iconic institutions. The Miss America Patent. He looks at me and goes, "You don't look like you suffered in the eating disorder." It's great, but it looks too ethnic. Listen to the Curse of Miss America on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Okay, Chuck. Thanks for leaving it to me to kick this part off. But as we mentioned that a movie from 2017, "Goodbye Christopher Robin," was based on a biography of A.A. Millen from 1990. I don't remember the biographer's name, but it did die, like I said, pulled many punches, if any, and it was starring Dominal Gleason, Brendan Gleason's son. Yeah, he was in X Machina, a few other movies, but he was also in Frank. Have you ever seen Frank? I don't think so. What was that? It's an indie film about an indie band led by a guy with a giant paper machehead who no one has ever seen. He will not take it off. Yeah, that was out. It's Fossbender playing Frank. Yeah, yeah. That's a true story. Is it? Yeah. And I think our old buddy, John Ronson, wrote the book that that was based on if I'm not mistaken. Well, that is a great, great movie. I'm guessing the book's even better because that's usually the case. Yeah, I didn't mean to book or see the movie. I need to do both. Go see the movie, for sure. It's a great little movie. I would recommend it to anybody. Yeah, that was a weird true story. And of course, right up John Ronson's alley, for sure. So anyway, that was neither here nor there, but the point of "Goodbye Christopher Robin" was this idea that A.A. Milne essentially stole Christopher Robin, the real life Christopher Robin's childhood and sold it in book form. He packaged it and sold it and got very, very rich off of it. And his son became very, very unhappy. Even before he realized that that's even before he could put into words, something like that, he just knew something was quite wrong and he did not like all of the attention. He liked it at first, but very quickly it became overwhelming and overtaxing for him. And as nanny, all of who he loved very much. Right. Who in the movie was played by what's her name from? Kelly McDonnell. Yeah, Trainspotting. That book, by the way, was written by Anne Thweight. - Thank you. - And in that book, she goes on to sort of detail how in some ways this kind of, I don't know why it goes so far to say ruin their lives, but it wasn't a great thing. Like, you know, this was a writer, A.A. Milne, who wanted to do other things. He was like, I don't want to write this stuff anymore. I was a satirist to begin my career and then a playwright. And nobody wanted that. Everyone just wanted more poo. And he felt, you know, I think this happens sometimes when you get a big breakout hit with the thing, sort of in prison by that thing. - Yeah, and something similar happened to E.A. Shepard, although I don't think to nearly the degree that happened to A.A. Milne and Christopher Robin in his real life, not his career, his real life, he ran into the same problems that his father ran into with his career. But, you know, the point is made that Shepard was a, he was a political cartoonist. So he had a edgy satirical career as well. And people were like, draw some more piglets for us. But I did see that he continued to have a very long illustrious career at punch magazine into the late 40s. So he wasn't, you know, his career wasn't totally derailed like A.A. Milne's was. - He's like, here's poo as Uncle Sam. - Exactly. And here he is, his chairman, Mal. So Christopher Robin, Milne had a rough go like you said. He was bullied all kind of all throughout school. Kind of that thing where anytime, you know, you think like being a famous kid is a cool thing, but it seems to never work out that way at school. Like you become a target. He went off to war and listed to kind of prove that, you know, all the kids would call him names. They would call him a sissy and like names that they said, you know, at the time like that. And went off the war, graduated college and even in his professional life, like I get the idea, it's sort of like, you know, he goes to get a job and they're like, wait, Christopher, you're that Christopher Robin. - No way. - And yeah, and he just had a hard time breaking free of being that character, even though he was a real human. - Yeah, he and he became more and more resentful, especially as he was able to put into words what he felt like his father did for him or to him as far as his childhood goes. And also, his father was in exactly like a walking around this heart on his sleeve. He supposedly was very, very reserved. Maybe even more than Domino Gleason portrays him in that movie. - Oh, wow. - According to the real Christopher Robin later in life. So for, this adolescence all the way up to middle age, he had a seething resentment for his father. And it wasn't until later in life that he finally was able to happily make peace not just with his father, but also with Winnie the Pooh. Came to appreciate Winnie the Pooh again, because Christopher Robin, the real life Christopher Robin, ironically was the one kid in the entire world over generations who hated Winnie the Pooh. And he was able to overcome it, which I think is a really triumphant story. But he had a quote I read when he was, I think age 60. He said, "My father had got where he was by climbing on my infant shoulders. He filched for me my good name and left me with nothing, but the empty fame of being his son." - Ooh. - That's how he felt about his father for decades. - Man's, that is rough. And his dad was a deeply damaged human because of the war. - Yeah. - Yeah, we promised sadness everyone. So I hope we're delivering on that. Yeah, 1932 was when he got color on a record sleeve. And that's when the iconic red shirt became a thing. And I guess we should talk a little bit about the Disney cartoon. So like I said, they got the rights in '61. And I think five years after that, the first feature that came out when he, the poo and the honey tree. And all of a sudden it was like a living breathing, moving thing on the big screen. And people drank this in as much as they did the books. - Yeah, I think it outshined the first live action movie that it was paired with in theaters. - The ugly Doxand, starring Suzanne Plishette and Dean Jones. It looked like a stink bomb. - I think I saw that actually. - Did you really? It's basically like a giant dog that is playing with Doxand's and thinks it's a Doxand for like an hour and a half. - I saw. - It just looked awful. Plus there's something about Dean Jones. I've never put my finger on, but I don't know. I just don't see him as a family film kind of, even though that's mainly what he was in. - Oh, interesting. I don't wonder if there's a subway Jared story in there somewhere. - I don't know, maybe not that far, but I could see him like shouting at the like, the child actors between takes about how terrible they're doing. (laughing) - I love you created the scenario. - Yeah, I know. - Poor guy. So as far as the Disney movies go in the feature ads, it was like an all star team from Disney from the beginning. It was directed, the originals were directed by Willie Reitherman, who was one of the legendary nine old men of Disney, who were these nine dudes. That's the name Walt Disney gave them. Who kind of like all those early, kind of up through like the late '70s even, I think one of them even worked until the mid '80s. All those early animated movies where these nine dudes kind of run in the show. And then they had an all star cast voicing these things too, right? Not like these days all star cast when it's like, Pat Noswald and Maya Rudolph, like back in the day when they were animated voice stars. - Yeah, while Sterling Holloway, he's a great example. He was caught, the serpent in the jungle book. He played the stork in Dumbo, who I think he's like drunk and accidentally delivers Dumbo somewhere else, right? You would just totally recognize his voice and probably his face too, 'cause he was in a lot of like live action movies too. But he played Winnie the Pooh. And I can't hear Winnie the Pooh as any other voice, but his. - Yeah, totally. Barbara Letti did the lady voice for Lady in the Tramp. She was Kanga, Clint Howard, of course, famed actor. And I hate to have to say this, but he is Ron Howard's brother. I'm sure he gets tired of that designation though. - I would think so. I've heard he's actually a really cool dude. - Yeah, he is. - And kind of easygoing. So he probably doesn't let on that it bothers him. He was also the star of the terrible movie, The Ice Cream Man, which Rift Tracks does. And it's so bad I can't even watch Rift Tracks do it. But get this, my brother-in-law is producing a remake of The Ice Cream Man. So I'm kind of excited to see that, yes. I don't know if Miele's in it or not, but I know my brother-in-law's producing so pretty, right? Hopefully she'll at least have some sort of a walk on, you know, where she likes spikes the camera in ways in the background. - One of those. - That'd be great. So Clint Howard was Rue. Buddy Baker was the composer. He did the Mickey Mouse Club theme. You know, the legendary animators of the early days of Disney were all put on this, of course. And they just started kind of pumping these things out one after the other in the late '60s through the mid '70s and beyond. - Yes, and I mean, when you say pumping 'em out, I feel like we should also accompany that with like, these were also like Oscar-winning shorts too. - Yeah. - It really started getting pumped out in like the '90s with a lot of like direct to DVD stuff. These were still very much like cared for and like, they were a big deal whenever they were produced. You know what I mean? - Yeah, it didn't seem like, hey, how can we print more money next? - Exactly. That started in the '80s and '90s. So now I think we should finish up a little bit with this thing that's happened with Winnie the Pooh over the years, which is, it is a wonderful children's story, or set of stories and films and everything. But it has always, or very soon after I feel like, branched out as like being kind of co-opted, but not in a bad way as like, hey, there's a lot more to Winnie the Pooh than meets the eye. And we're talking like religion, mental health, philosophy, and as we'll see even political resistance. - How do you feel about Winnie the Pooh getting that kind of treatment? - Oh. - For being used in that manner. That's what I should say. - I don't, I don't mind it. - Okay. - What about you? I mean, I don't think it totally like disrupts the purity of it because it's, it's people sort of like saying, hey, these are, there's a lot of like life philosophies you can draw from each of these characters distinct point of view. - Sure, yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think that even if it's stunk across the board, somehow it still wouldn't spoil Winnie the Pooh as Winnie the Pooh, you know what I'm saying? - I agree. - And I think that's also evidence checked by the fact that the original books, the original stories coexist alongside the disney-fied version. Like one of the things Disney is just known for is taking the original and redoing it in such a way that it has to consume the original and basically wipe it out of existence to produce the disney-fied version, like AI companies scanning old books and destroying them, right? It's essentially what Disney did. Winnie the Pooh survived that and that's really notable and noteworthy and that says a lot about Winnie the Pooh too, I think. - Yeah, Winnie shall not be denied his place. - No, Winnie the Pooh will take his place by force If you do. don't give it to him. - That's right. Well, God, we should mention that movie at the end. - Oh, okay. - So I mentioned philosophy at first. There was a book in 1995 called "Poo and the Philosophers", where all of the characters are sort of written about too, as embodying all the famous philosophers, Plato, Kant, Descartes, Poo was Nietzsche. And then that followed, actually that was 1995, but earlier than that. And I remember this in the '80s, the Dow of Poo in 1982. And how do you pronounce that the day of picklet? - So Dow is the way or the path in day is virtue. - Okay, so that was the '82 and '92, and that looks at the characters, obviously, through the lens of Dowism. - Might be D, I'm not sure. But yeah, so Poo, actually, that one really works, and that's probably by far the most celebrated adaptation of Wendy the Poo, because the point of the Dow of Poo is that Poo is a perfect example of the goal of Dowism, which is Wu Wei, which is not doing. And that doesn't mean just sit around, not doing anything. It means like you go with the flow of nature, rather than trying to oppose it to bend it to your will. And that's perfectly embodied by Poo, which is kind of, happily goes along, and completely rebounds from obstacles and problems, and just moves a different direction, essentially. - Yeah, they've also, and mental illness treatment, and self-help books and things, they have been assigned. Well, it seems sort of obvious that maybe E or is depressed, or maybe picklet has anxiety. Tigger, they say, has ADHD. And again, it's sort of, this one feels a little more gross to me, but if it's helping people, then that's fine. - I wonder though, if it is, maybe. I could see Tigger with ADHD like helping a kid with ADHD feel better, but it's probably what they use it for, don't you think, or? - I don't know. I think they use it for think pieces that can be really annoying. - Yeah, I mean, I've seen a lot of strengths over the years and no one ever brought this up to me. - No, unless they're like cheer up E or G's. - Yeah, it's a good point. That's what my dream guy always says to me. - And then we got to talk a little bit about the political resistance thing. So in 2017, there were some satirical memes around about Chinese president Xi Jinping. And like, hey, that's Winnie, like depicting him as Winnie the Pooh. So it's China, so they were like, you know what? We're gonna kind of almost ban Winnie the Pooh, basically. - Yeah, you cannot legally put a picture of Winnie the Pooh in a picture of President Xi next to one another. That's illegal in China now. And so of course, South Park got a win to this and dedicated a whole episode to skewering China over it. And I think they kill Winnie the Pooh in it. - Yeah. - So China outlawed South Park, which is surprising to me that that is when they outlawed South Park. It seems like they would have outlawed South Park back in the off, you know? - Yeah, absolutely. - This is 2019. And then the Taiwanese Air Force kind of took that and ran with it. And they have a patch. Some of the pilots have a patch of a foremost in black bear, which is not native to Taiwan. Punching Winnie the Pooh in the face. And I don't like the concept of Winnie the Pooh being punched in the face, but it is a pretty funny looking patch, I have to say. - Yeah, and then, you know, the movie we referenced that we're gonna mention that you, I had seen this trailer before when it came out. I guess the idea is that Winnie the Pooh eventually entered the public domain, which means people were gonna do awful things. What was the name of the movie? - Winnie the Pooh, colon, blood and honey. - Yeah, so it plays Winnie the Pooh as like a murderous bear. - Yeah, who, after Christopher Robin left them and never came back, they went feral. And, but they also are able to use axes and handguns and stuff like that. So it's a slasher flick with Winnie the Pooh and friends exacting revenge on Christopher Robin and his friends. And it's live action, which makes it even more bizarre. - Yeah, and the poo looks pretty good, you know, the character they created. I remember when that came out and reading about the news about the public domain or whatever. And I don't think it's supposed to be very good, but I'd still like to see some of it, I guess. - Me too, me too. The coolest adaptation I saw is called The Call of Puthulu. And it is, I think, a dozen different authors, horror authors, writing Winnie the Pooh stories, but then weird like, The Call of Puthulu mythos stuff like from Lovecraft is woven in. And it sounds awesome. So it's coming to my house on Monday. - Oh, cool. I love it. - Can't wait. - The poo is as big as ever. I believe it's never been out of print. The house on poo corner at least. These stories are available in more than 50 languages. Have sold more than 50 copies around the world. This is a little fun fact. The Latin language version is, in 1958, is the only Latin language book to ever make The New York Times bestseller list, which is pretty cool. - Ooh, wee! - Yeah, for sure. And you can actually go to the setting of The Hundred Acre Wood, Ashtown Forest, which is basically, I don't wanna say it's been converted into The Hundred Acre Wood, but there's definitely poo-related stuff all over the place. And for good reason. I mean, like, if you're gonna go there, you kinda wanna see the stuff that originally inspired this. So there's The Poustics Bridge, which is where the game of Poustics, where each person drops the stick in the water, and then you run to the other side of the bridge to see who stick passes under the bridge fastest. That's the winner. There was an original bridge from, I don't know when it was, but they rebuilt it. But true to its original form. So that's still there. I think Ears House is there. There's a bunch of cool stuff to do. - Yeah, I bet there's a gift shop. - There definitely is, it's called Poo Corner. And not only can you buy gifts there, you can also buy coffee, and maybe even have tea, like a high tea there. - Oh, I would guess I'm surmising, but I'll bet I'm right. - Yeah, that sounds fun. I mentioned the New York Public Library. They've been there the little original stuffy since 1987, except for Rue, which apparently was left behind in an apple orchard, I guess, by Christopher Robin. And just this year, just a few months ago, in fact, in April, queen Camilla, queen Camilla, gifted the library an exact replica of that original stuffy. And I believe that one's there. So I did not see that one because I went a couple of years ago. - Well, you need to go back. - Yeah, see that recreation. - Yep. If you want to be reminded of your humanity every once in a while, just go read the last chapter of the House of Poo Corner. It's the second of the only two actual Winnie the Pooh story collections that A.A. Milner wrote. And Christopher Robin is essentially saying goodbye without saying goodbye because he's starting to grow up and now he has to go to school and he can't just do nothing all day. And he's trying to explain it to Pooh and Pooh's not really catching on, but they manage to kind of communicate in their own way and the end. And it is really touching, like just go read it now. - Yeah, and bring the Kleenex. - It's so great. - Yeah, it's cute too. So Chuck, I say that's it for winning the Pooh for now, okay? - Yeah, I'm sad to leave him behind. - Yeah, no, we have to. We have to go to school. If you want to know more about winning the Pooh, go read the last chapter in the House of Poo Corner. It's a great place to start. And in the meantime, we're going to do listener mail. - You know, it just happened. You said it's time to go to school and that was such a sweet sentiment. But for some reason, immediately in my brain, I pictured you and I on a school bus and like me shooting spitballs and you with a pocket knife like carving something in the seat and starting here. - Wow, we, all right. All right, we'll go that way just for a day. - It's just what popped into my head. All right, listener mail. This is a very sad one. So just warning to everybody. - Thanks for that. - Hey guys, I'm writing and listening from Chile. Last year my wife passed away at only 29 years of age after battling a rare kind of cancer in UT, carcinoma. Maybe it can inspire an episode, guys. But through this battle, we often escape to my mother-in-law's house on the beach to find some peace and quiet. And it was our tradition to listen to two episodes of stuff you should know because the two hour drive on our way there and then two more on our way back. Slowly but steadily, you guys became an important part of our travels and brought us knowledge, joy and laughter on many grim occasions. And this week I came back to that coast after almost a year of not being able to do so because of the memories. And when I did, the first thing I did was put on the podcast and have you guys come along. It would mean, sorry, I'm getting emotional here. - That is so sweet. So Chuck, you just beeped. Can you clear your throat? And I was like, is Chuck getting choked up? And yes, you are. That is amazingly sweet. - I know I'd have already done this one. Guys, it would mean the world of me if you could dedicate an episode in the memory of Jacinta who especially loved and laughed at Josh's laugh. Keep up the good work and may you come with me to many more trips. And that is from Lucas. And I told Lucas it was gonna be in this episode and there was a cancer episode coming out soon but I'd rather tag it with this one and this one's dedicated to Jacinta. - Good idea, Chuck. That was perfect. Thank you for that. Thank you for that, Lucas, for listening to us all this time and for letting us know if the little role we played in your life in Jacinta's life. So thank you. I don't know what else to say Chuck, that was just great. If you want to make Chuck and I quiet, at the end of an episode, take your best shot. You can send it off via email to [email protected]. Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. This is a constant worry. And you can actually catch the model thinking I think X is actually true, but I'm going to tell the user why. I'm Walter Isaacson. I'm my new podcast, The Builders. Listen to The Builders starting October 13th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The funniest podcast in the entire world. I like that. That's a good way to promote ourselves. We are too funny guys having fun enjoying ourselves and we just know how to have fun, unlike anyone else. If you guys like fun conversations, hot takes, what else? Not too hot, just kind of lukewarm takes to get your mind thinking a little bit. Listen to Out of Character on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Bridget Armstrong back with season two of the podcast, Curse of Miss America. We're talking to participants, whistleblowers, and people who say Miss America didn't live up to their promises. He looks and he goes, "You don't look like you suffered in the eating disorder." I never received scholarship. Why is Miss America at this point? Listen to the Curse of Miss America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.