Winners and losers in the current meta

[Music] Greetings Webhead and Zed, welcome to episode 51 of WhittyBanger, yet another Marvel Crisis Protocol podcast. I'm Patrick. I'm Alex. I'm David. This is JP. We are here to help you get better at and have more fun with our Crisis Protocol. We are going to talk about winners and losers in the current where the current meta stands, where just a little bit before we adapt to Koso, we'll probably be seeing some changes there, but at least from where we're standing right now, we just kind of wanted to think through what the status of things are. So, before we dive into that, though, just a quick little bit of business. If you could, we would really appreciate it. The best thing you could do to help us out is to give us a light, give us a review on your podcast or choice. That would be really appreciated and helps the algorithm figure out and other people find their way into the neighborhood. Also, if you would consider supporting us at patreon.com/whittybangercast, for as little as the dollar a month, you can help us keep the lights on and you can get some cool benefits, including special dojos, access to our discord, as well as some other stuff that we've got bacon in the oven, so hopefully you'll like that. And hopefully we can, we'd like to see there. David, before we dive into our topic, though, I think you had something you want to bring out. So, I wanted to ask you guys what, like, model that you've been playing recently that has been suddenly, like, you've realized that it's better than you thought they were and that they've been playing better and maybe give the listeners some ideas of, hey, you could play this model because somebody has been playing a while and, you know, like, for me, that model would be Domino, right? Domino is way better than I could, like, she's really good, the fact that she shuts off your opponent's grits when they attack or when they defend and, like, she can just count her crits and, like, she can just randomly explode on people. Like, she's really good. David, who's your, who's your underrated star? Who have you been playing that have been surprised with? I've been playing pretty much all the Ramamu for a while since the change. And my list has gone through a lot of iterations. But I will say that the guy who probably surprises me the most is Heimdall, just as a three-threat in that list, unlocking rerolls and the teleport. I use the teleport a lot on Dorm, on Ram1, to get him into an advantageous position to just start chunking people. And, yeah, he's just kind of sneaky good. He still has the issue of being a ranged character. So, if he can't hit anybody, he's obviously less effective in the game. But on some maps, he's just kind of a boss, like on Intrusions. If someone teleports next to him, he just smacks him in the face. How much time are you? Who's your, who's your sneaky MVP? So, I've been playing a lot of apocalypse in preparation for Debticon. And that list, nobody sneaky, nobody sneaky. It's all good. But everybody knew this. And like the, even like the pivot that I have, all those models in that pivot, I ain't saying who it is though. All those models are good pivot, they're all good models. The other list I've been playing, the Cyclops, TVB list. I gotta say it's Cyclops. I'm gonna give him a little bit more credit. He still looks like Dog Shit on paper, in my opinion. Because there's just a couple of things he needs to tweak to be like that forth bread, iconic Cyclops. But with all the other characters in the roster, it really gets his ball rolling a little bit better. And there are times where it's like, if he, if he can get four catch in one turn, he feels really, really good. I've been working my sent those lists back and forth. And although my guy isn't, isn't the list right now. The guy that I've added in that I've been the most surprised with is Mantha. He just does a lot. He's, he's got, he's got, he's got hard to kill. He's got his teleport. He's got a, he's got a, he's got a, he's got a mystic, a spender. He can handle it and scinerates, particularly if you're going up against an opponent that really wants to kind of get in and get down dirty and fighting. So, so Mantha would be my vote. A range three teleport on a large base is very, very good. Yeah, it's, it is, it is astonishing how far you can move as that. Alright, that's almost what a, like in total, including the base, like, from start to end, that's, that's got to be at least range five, right? Yeah, it's like, it's like, it's like four and a half at least. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's such a huge distance. If you're six, it's six plus two point something, two point seven, five. Yeah. So it's like almost 10 inches. Yeah. It's really interesting. Well, I'm saying like, like from where the back of the base is where they start to where they end. The back of the base of the front of the base. Back of the base. Oh. So like if you're going, I guess this farther than. Yeah, I mean, you're probably moving. If you count from the back of the base, they're moving like 10, over 10 inches. Yeah. Right. That's what I'm saying. Like that, I mean, it's a huge distance. Yeah. Yeah. If you maximize it and go like, three way to fully three way from one end to the other, you can, it's a long way. And, and it's, people should see it coming, but I don't know that that necessarily happens. And so when you have a Sentinel that moves from functionally one side of the board to the other instantly, it's, it, it makes a difference. It makes a difference. He's still got, there's some, there's, there's, he's a three thread. And so he certainly cost it that way. And, and on, if you got to play just raw attrition, he, he's a bit of a bow to anchor for that. Yeah, I, I have been, he was a ton of fun to paint. And I really wanted to get the model done. But boy, he, he's done a lot more work on the table than I was expecting him to. So I'm, I'm, I'm excited. I got to, I got to figure out a way to get him back in there so we can get him play. Well, not for nothing going back to the domino thing, right, turning off your opponents, crits and offences. It's pretty good. Yep. Yeah. That's what I mean. He's, he is, he's surprisingly, he's surprisingly tanky. And then, and then he heals back the damage at the end of his, at the end of his activation anyway. Okay, so our main topic that we wanted to talk about was winners and losers. Basically, we're talking about who right now is given the current status of the game. Who's been the biggest winners? Who have been the biggest losers and why? So I think what we'll do is kind of maybe go around the world. Or we'll start with, we're going to start positive. We're a positive thinking show here. So who's been the biggest winner based on kind of the current changes in the game. So David, let's start with you. Who's right now? Who's, who stocks up the highest? I mean, I think, I think Dormammu definitely has between him getting buffed and the changes to the crisis means he can kind of cherry pick out the scenarios that he's like terrible at, right. And it's just like super versatile. Like you can put him basically in any roster. So I think I think Dormammu's definitely hit the stocks up on Dormammu. Obviously, Apocalypse, like it didn't get any worse for him. So he's still better. Oh my god, honestly, I think like Apocalypse is doing back flips on ice in Italy right now. That motherfucker is love in the fact that he'll never play 16 again. And he doesn't have to worry about getting like size five thrown into him or like him getting thrown into your team. Like it's great. And also Apocalypse has more. So I think we'll kind of talk about this more when we talk about the teams that have kind of gotten hurt a little bit, but with Apocalypse, like he can, Apocalypse can kind of play almost any crisis. the fact that you're probably playing the more mid-range stuff means that like Apocalypse is just fine on those things like he likes to play the boxes he doesn't mind you know like the slower scenarios like he can fight you if he has to so I think Apocalypse is definitely got I think I think the changes are good for him I think one of the other affiliations I'd want to shout out is Avengers I think Avengers could be like man Steve one is still like his leadership is still very good and they having the ability to like kind of decide what crisis you don't want to play is pretty good for first and I just think Avengers could be they can they I think they have some game now I don't know if it's gonna amount to anything or like I think Apocalypse is still a kind of awful matchup for Steve but I still think I think they're pretty good you guys got any other affiliations you'd want to shout out. I'm not gonna say here and pretend that I have a comprehensive knowledge of the current meta or anything. This is the this is the internet this is this is a podcast you are expected to have a fully formed hot take on every possible topic. Yeah so I'm like hardly in the discord or anything anymore I'm not really paying attention anything I will say that my my takeaway is very similar to David's and the fact that I do think that with the changes Doranamo and Epoch got better and I think it probably just favors any team that's kind of like good at fighting just because the way the crisis selection works now it allows the game to be slowed down like when we first changed this new crisis set like everything got faster a lot of things got rotated out a lot of things that were a lot of scenarios that were like good for Trishon teams went away generally speaking like VPs VPs on the board went up but with this change I think the teams that those attrition teams are able to dial the points scored back a little bit with the selections so yeah I think I think Epoch and Doran were sitting pretty good and like yeah Epoch is just so flexible he's just good and like the changes just there weren't there wasn't a bad change for him and Doran I mean he's he's just a cannon so and he's generally more narrow so he's definitely playing like the attrition focused game and he has more time to do it JP you've been you've been playing a ton of Doranamo so so I'll I'll ask this for you so with Apocalypse it kind of sounded like a lot of his glow up for lack of better term came from the fact that he just didn't take a hit where some of the other affiliations that we'll talk about here in a little bit did so it's it's almost kind of like no it not like he didn't move up just everybody moved back with Doranamo is do you think that his ascendancy is coming more from the actual change of his hit or for the change in the crisis selection which which of those do you think more contributes to Doranamo's Doranamo's rise I feel like it's a trick question it's like it's a yes it's it's it's just multiple factors kind of cascading into him being better but I will say that I don't think Apocalypse didn't get better I think he did get better he's his team can be like the only thing that makes him not a fighting team is that he's usually always five wide which all that's not always ideal in a fighting scenario like that's kind of why we didn't see APOC too much before the crisis change was that we had so many fighting teams was fighting scenarios and like they could just fight APOC more narrowly and still maintain prior and just kind of do whatever they wanted to do but I mean for a five-wide team APOC is kind of kind of a menace like you take APOC Gambit magic and then you've got your pestilence character that's just giving everybody conditions like if you give pestilence more time to like spread conditions out the game just becomes more difficult for your opponent so slowing the game down is definitely good for APOC just in general as well I think like it's not ideal for him because I think other there's other lists that can out-fight him but like generally speaking I think it was a boost for him outside of you know the throw change and everything Alex as our resident apocalypse player but what are your thoughts on this? I mentioned it earlier in David's point with APOC if not having a place 16 it's just like gold gold for him does that mean you don't have to play honey badger anymore and thank God for that yeah I don't yeah I think honestly the mid-rainders got the best out of this like the out of the crisis change and that's just because like David and JP mentioned this but JP really pointed out like touring is not as fast I which I think is a good thing but it's it's not as slow as like the heydays of attrition games so I think it's it's like finally hit that good mix of average game like you'll see is four to five turns which I think that's like perfect for the game so yeah those those mid-rainders those mid-range teams and affiliations really benefited the most if you're like super attrition or super scory you might have taken a little bit of a hit because like your opponent can just prevent that perfect scenario for you yeah I feel like right after those changes we were seeing a lot of maybe like seven to nine VP games now it feels like I'm seeing a lot more six to eights yeah yeah yeah I'm seeing a lot more six days I honestly I'm seeing seeing more six to seven because usually the paid-of-lips are four and then the attrition like the yeah like I feel it's about seven to eight well no it's it's like six I'm seeing six a lot too because like one two attrition teams are kind of throwing their stuff down is like okay we're playing intrusions and I'll buy this whatever well and then I thought about it like those those attrition teams they're usually also including wedding party and and fish so then that brings the average down so okay that's there yeah 16 well they want to bring the average up a little bit but I don't think I think you have to be kind of specialized attrition team to be playing especially fish I don't think fish is necessarily one that everyone has wants to play like budding parties a little bit more forgiving but yeah you definitely need a plan for fish and wedding party like even wedding party it's like you're throwing in 20 threat which I don't love as a attrition and you're still you're still introducing four points to the board like I'd still rather just play something that's only three typically like I don't think it's horrible but well usually within attrition you're playing characters that just want to dig your feet in and shoot and you know I'm after you running around chasing anything either yeah that's fair too but like you have so many options for three now I mean you got you got intrusions you got locked down you've got meteors and I'm like running out because my brain's not working is that it we only have three we only have three three more than that right but either way jailbreak no no we're talking I'm talking to curious sorry oh is that locked down locked down is the one that already called that one out maybe there's only three maybe there's meteors and trees and locked down maybe that's only three but I mean that's three out of five and then you just take a couple that are a couple that are whatever like yeah yeah just a ton of fours I guess yeah but you can even take fours that are not like McCrann or something like it's super tight like you're gonna be in a scrum the whole time and it's paid a flip it's like okay well we're just gonna bang it out and do what happens yeah yeah yeah you can't blame very well and crann does not feel like and crann never feels like it's for it because it's so tight the other thing too with apocalypse is the the changes to priority are less impactful for apocalypse right because he can just like he can just go I'm gonna deploy right here and I can teleport in like. double tap either side, like if we're playing like a DX and we're playing, we're playing hammers. It doesn't matter which hammer you grab, I can place and double tap the other one, right? So he doesn't care that much about like not having priority. - I think toad, if Toad, if Toad to play centrally, I think he can get to either hammer if the terrain is. - Yeah, I believe he can. - If the terrain is agreeable. - He can, right. - Yeah, I'm pretty sure he can. And like terrain even then for the most part, it's too big of a deal for him. It really just depends on how he plays. - 'Cause he has wall pro, right? - Yeah, he's got wall pro, so he can mess it up here. - Yeah, I've had some of you incorrectly. - Yeah, I've had some issues with it a little bit, but-- - For sure. - Generally speak, like it's harder when you only have, if your cron gets the priority and they take the one that has clearance for Toad and then you're like, okay, well, I don't know if I can get this one because this piece of terrain is like, not, it's not within, if Toad's on the other side of it, it pushes him outside of too, but he can't land on top of it because whatever reason, he actually doesn't physically, can't physically balance on it, or like he's over the edge or something. I've had a few issues with it, but. - Yeah, just an entirely unrelated note, it does kind of seem like we have seen a rise of terrain that you can't easily stand on, so that fits into what you're talking about, JP. - Yeah. - This is a huge, just a mere terrain, I can't help it. - I'm thinking of that fucking sphinx that you have on your APOC board. - There's like three spots you can put a model on. - I know that things block me at least one time from picking up a DX track with Toad. - The sphinx is way, the sphinx is way more stand-onable than about 75% of the actual APOC ellipses terrain that AMG has given us. - Yeah. And like the Wakanda terrain. - And the Wakanda terrain. - Yeah. - And got help us when all the new dark dimensions, stuff starts coming out. - Dude. - What dark dimension stuff? We didn't get a leak of anything that shouldn't have been posted prematurely. Well, we didn't know about the Shoagora stuff. - I didn't. - We did. - I, but yes, either way, it does sound like it's gonna be stuff that's gonna make boards look really cool and players have to work really hard to make sure they pick the right table edge to start the game. - It's gonna look really cool, but man, I'm not gonna lie. I'm gonna hit that shit. It's not gonna look in a sense of uniform whatsoever. And like, it's so many colors. - You know, I can say that all I want, but from the second I saw that Shoagora stuff come out, it was like, yeah, I'll be painting that. It's like when they dropped the Tumadracula. I should know better, but it's like, yep, that's getting painted. That's gonna be two months of my life down the drain. (laughs) - I think I've seen my sanctum still a box. - It assembled it and it mines assembled and primed and that's as far as I've gotten. - You're such a warrior. - I know. (laughs) It's, you know, it is, it's basically just as close to being on the table as yours is. - No, I think you put in way more effort. I took out a piece of terrain. I took out one of the little pieces of like one size one terrain to use on somebody's base. That's what I did with that box. - I think he was your gosh, and it feels straighter. - I took out the mailbox. - Yeah, you're right. - I think Alex, you wanted a piece of that terrain out of that box, which I think is kind of the only reason I opened it in the first place. - Yeah, I wanted to stop sign. I stopped sign before stop sign. So that way I can have a four-way stop. - I mean, we all gotta have goals in life. - We all got those terrain king to index that for now. And as well, we all know we're heads, we do not kink shame around here. It's not even necessarily like terrain king. Like I have one of those four-way intersection math from I War game. So it's like, if we're not having a four-way stop, it just seems weird. - Come with you. I'm with you. - Just an ocean of things. - Listen, hey, the Sentinel's gotta know where to stop. (laughing) - Sentinel's gonna do a stop sign. - That's just, if I'm not stopped sign. - I was about to say not anymore. I mean, I can just-- - Not the prime, the prime will stop. - The prime, that is true. 'Cause the one thing we know about the Sentinel prime, he's very much a firstborn child. He is a rule follower. - I think he wear a slits, why? - Yeah, I don't know about that. - It would explain why-- - It would explain why he's taller. It would explain why the prime's taller than all the other ones too. - I think you're onto something there, JP. - Them still under heels. - It probably gives him plus one to perception so we can see for him there. - Yeah. - All right, so we've had our conversation about winners. So let's do the same thing. Let's do what the internet was built for and let's be negative and tear things down. David, who are some of the big losers of where the game's currently at and why? I gotta talk about my beloved webs. I really like webs and they're so much fun. But I was finding when I was playing webs that I almost never was like, I don't think I ever played a game on scoundrels. Like it just never came up. And I maybe played one or two games of riots. The crisis that webs are good at, like everybody's just choosing the other stuff that you have to bring. So you're like, I mean, I'm gonna bring scoundrels, riots and cosmic indasian, right? But like after that, it's like, am I taking, am I taking infinity formula and whatever other B? So like, you're upon us just gonna pick those and that's it and you're like, well, I guess I'm playing four secures on, you know, what if I end up pulling something that's slow? Like I get two of the three point extracts. Now I'm like seven points on the table. This is not great. It just made it so webs have to like conceive a plan on trying to be a little bit more fighting than they were previously, which I think is okay. They can do it. It's definitely not ideal and it just doesn't feel, before playing webs, you would be like, oh, I got riots or I got scoundrels and now it's like, this crisis feels amazing for webs and you're just not getting that feeling and half the time you're just ending up on the same set of like, now we're playing infinity formula and hammers or whatever, you know, extract your opponent, pick those four scrolls or something. So like it just makes them, I mean, there's probably a world where they play Miles' leadership just like they were before and it's probably fine. If it being good, I'm not 100% sold because I still think Miles' very vulnerable is a character and there are a lot of things that can just randomly wreck him like sentinels or amba or any of these like mystic attackers that he can't like get away from like apocalypse. Yeah, I think webs took a hit. I don't know what you guys think. - JP, what are your, what do you thoughts about the current losers of the affiliation games? - Well, since I've been so entrenched in the meta lately, I've got a lot to say about this. That's just, that's sarcasm guys, I don't. I'm just gonna say what like the opposite of what I said about the winners, like I think anybody who was trying to score the game really quickly took a hit, I think they were feeling pretty good about the new crisis set when it released and games were scoring out pretty quickly. They were getting to play on scoundrels like one-third of the time. Now it's definitely slowed down and they're feeling it. So I think anybody who's primary goal is to score is gonna be hurting. Anybody who's trying to engineer around one play is gonna be hurting because of the second priority role. You're not guaranteed to like get your round one play, whatever the thing is, like if you're taking like a, like an ASM or an A-more or something to grab the middle extract and the opponent gets prior, then you took a five-thread and you don't get to do the thing that you wanted to do anymore. So obviously that's a little weaker, I've heard people say that in humans are weaker and I mean they are because of that and the nerf to or the banning of the what's their card the telecard card great refugee. I still think they they're definitely not as good because they're they're not like particularly fighting outside of bolts you can make a fight in humans I suppose. Um obviously some people locally have done that. Um but like the scenario play is slowed down I think like quicks over still good. Um and certain uncertain extracts even if you lose the prior role you can still go up you like three to two if you're playing like a five. A five extract of five point extract. Which is good you get to break parity with losing the prior role and if you win the prior role you're even an even better shape so I think quicks over still good. It's just like it got slowed down so um yeah like bolt hits like a truck but you're taking like I don't know whoever quicks over lock jaw um just like random crap in your um in your in humans list that's not necessarily fighting. I guess you could retool it to be a little more fighting but I think I don't know. I do think I do think blackball is a good centerpiece for a fighty list so maybe we'll see some inhuman adaptations uh to the new meta uh obviously like I I haven't seen it personally because um I'm not playing online I'm not looking at forums and local meta is very uh limited but having bolt with arranged for gun with pierce and a reerl and bodyguard and being a five threat like I think he can make a good decent like a decent basis for um like a fightier uh fightier squad. I guess the problem comes in is like okay you I guess you could take lock jaw for like some early aggression for like aggressive tempo uh but then you're like stuck with taking another character and then like your splash at Trish and Peace so you're like kind of getting set you're getting taxed on the the affiliation list a little bit because they're not necessarily like the best at Trish and but I'm rambling yeah I think I think the um this narrow teams definitely hurt a little bit but I mean they're not getting size four thrown into many more I guess yeah it's good Alex go ahead go ahead go ahead go ahead go ahead go ahead go on Alex I'll have another okay Alex how about you what are your thoughts on um kind of uh uh the current losers of the game setter um I gotta I'm honestly gonna mirror David and JP here I feel the scenario teams took a they took a hit for sure I don't think it was like a massive hit per se because like they they can be lucky sometimes and still get eight points on the table but uh I don't know I yeah I think scenario took a hit I honestly think uh uh a Trish and took a little bit of a hit too like they're definitely bad well maybe they didn't take a hit I don't know because it like they're not I don't feel they're gonna get a perfect scenario where there's going to be six points on the table or something you know what I mean that I don't think they'll ever see that or if they do it's gonna be very rare. Well it was happening to me a decent amount that the thing is is like you're going as another attritionless then so it's like it's not like you have an advantage necessarily I wasn't gonna say though I got rambling so hard about inhumans I think Asgard took a hit to specifically just because like they were size four throw kings and now they're not it'll be interesting to see though because with the the atrishney stuff kind of coming back into favor and I think like Adam Warlocks gonna be a thing and probably Kang like these new I'm very interested to see this new Asgard box how it performs on the table because although I don't like the three dweebs their spender is actually pretty lethal and it's basically like duplicate valkyrie spender so if you have both of them on the table and you're going against like a Dormammo apocalypse Kang Adam Warlocks something like that like they're gonna be thumping that dude really hard and if you if you combine that with like a a doom prophecy is it's gonna get interesting I think yeah and I mean like I think new valkyres I mean she's not a slouch like she can move around a lot she can move other people it might be good for them but like we're losing the terrain throws just hurts where you're three can throw out they've got that super power to listen and make another attack so yeah you've got like you go you go doom prophecy and now you're hitting for eight and another eight and then your spenders like I mean depending on who it's against like if it's against dorm it's like what 15 dice I think it starts it starts it for you at eight and then have three it's like okay well I guess dorms weird because they get pushed but if you can backstop or something yeah maybe nothing great as example Adam Warlock will say all right so David kind of go around the morning and what do you think right now has been the biggest driver of the change has it been the has it been the change the character changes has it been the means of the the crisis selection process has it been something else or or where do you think these changes have mostly derived from I would say the fact that you like us as players have agency in what crisis from our opponents pool we get to pick so having that agency like it just changes the dynamic of like it's like before say you were playing webs and you lost you lost the priority role and they pick they pick their secures well now you got like a one in three chance you're gonna play scoundrels or if you don't play scoundrels it might be riots and so like you didn't have a way to be like well I didn't really want to play one of those so like having the ability to go no we're not gonna play that thing that you're really good at and that you've really teched your roster to be good at and it makes the teams that were reliant on those kind of scenarios start to like they start to have to figure out how do we play in the middle ground of all the crisis that everybody else is bringing and I mean maybe webs will adapt I'm sure they will I'm sure a lot of players will figure something out maybe they'll go more fighting I mean 29 is no slouch and like noir is in a slouch either like they can hit if they have to they're just not reliable at it I think that's the biggest thing is having just having the ability to like veto a crisis especially when like teams would usually be like you know like I'm excellent in scoundrels I'm gonna have this plan this is my 20 threat scoundrels this is my you know 18 threat scoundrels team so like like because before you had teeth roshes that were like I'm just building around playing these crisis and you know I just need to have something for the threat and now it's just it's a lot more dynamic and it's forcing a lot of teams to adapt and try to figure out how do we do this how do we play this particular scenario combination so it's it's definitely better for the overall health of the game it just means that a lot of the teams that a lot of the roshes they had the like they had the like they had their like stick and now it's like their stick isn't as good as it used to so it makes them just not feel as good like anybody who's played webs on wits knows that like webs are ridiculously good at riots and so now like they're not playing those crisis so they have to figure out what to do which I mean it is what it is and there's a lot of people out there who like obviously are like fuck webs so I mean it is what it is JP what do you think right now what do you think spend the these driver of a kind of a change in the the stock up and stock down with the game as far as like the between the scenario changes like just the different rule changes you mean well yeah I mean you know it has it has it has it been that part of the rule changes I get and then a whole bunch of the rule changes I guess we've had we've had the the changes in the throw damage, we've had the changes in who gets to get first act knowing who gets first activation We've had character changes, so I guess you know there's a bunch of different moving parts that we've had So which do you think's overall been the most Impactful in terms of changing who's good at who's not who's bad? I mean I'd like to have like a different answer But I'm gonna say scenario scenario is just huge like that's that's what you actually end up playing like the whole game is the scenario so changing Changing that changing the selection is very impactful. I mean we saw we saw how impactful it was when they rotated out demons and gamma and before that when when Researcher got taken out like it fundamentally changes the way the games played yeah, so yeah, I mean This was like definitely a softer hit then I feel like the the rotation the crisis rotation with the new card pack was more extreme of a hit to the meta than It is now with the change to the crisis selection with the new rules with a new crisis set Like I feel like this is a softer change, but it's still definitely Impactful to the way People are playing and even selecting what affiliations are playing I think people just like to fight at least at least in the America like I feel like people prefer just kind of beating them up So whenever a medic can shift more toward a beat them up, I think people are going to lean into it more So how about you? What do you think's kind of been the biggest driver in terms of how the meta has has changed how the games being played? I just got a mirror with these guys said like having having the like the scenarios how they work now is making such a big deal in how like the meta is being played Because it really slows down those scenario teams and the attrition teams obviously they prefer slower crises and like a slower scoring game so I mean that that veto is such a big fucking deal for for the game now, but it's not like a death sentence one way or the other I feel Yeah, scenario probably took the hit the most, but it's it's not necessarily doom stay for them because it could be you might be lucky enough that your opponent is unlucky and draws the two that you want so it's it's a double double edge sword. So why don't we've been while we've been kind of talking I pulled some pull some data off of long shanks because I was curious to see if the changes in the crisis selection had a really big effect in terms of which crises actually played. So the crisis in other words does has the crisis selection rules change which crisis end up getting played on on on a broader basis. What would you before we kind of get into the what what the data showed what what would you guys get a speed do you think that the change in the scenario choices has really effectively changed which crisis we actually see. What would you what would your guess be David will start with you my guess would be that a lot of the more fringe skewed crisis probably get played less so like there's probably less fish and less scoundrels and probably more like infinity and more the boxes so more infinity more. Guardian safe she are more madman that would be my guess. JP how about you what what what what would you guess is going to show up. Show up as being played lesser more in other words in other words how big of an effect in terms of if you look at just here's the statistical breakdown of the different crises that are getting played. Much changed do you would you have expected to see based on the change in the scenario selection rules. When you say how much change would expect to see I I'm not really maybe I'm just stupid I don't know what the question is. I'm not asking you very well so say you look at a you know you look at a list from most common to least common of crises that are being played before the change in the scenario selection. When you look at that same list after the change in the scenario selection would you expect that list to look the same or different or you know. Okay so I would like I would say the same thing as David I would expect like senators to be way down riots to be down senators to be down or not I didn't I said senators scoundrels to be down. I would expect to be down probably I would expect to be down I would expect a lot of the like like David was like I feel like I'm just going to be a fucking muck at the whole the whole episode and just keep repeating what David saying because that's like how I feel so like hammers is going to be up like infinity is going to be up just kind of those mid like guardian shapes. Kind of like mid mid range like happy for everybody sort of but not really scenarios where it's like it's not skewed one way or the other. Yeah. How about you? Uh, you know, I mean these guys are sharing this the exact same thoughts I'm sharing for the most part like. Yeah like those those very skewed like super I'm only using this word because it's the best word I can think of those punishing crises like this is super punishing if you're not prepared for it. Uh, and like scoundrels can be very punishing if you're not prepared for it to that cover that cover bonus is so big and the how quickly it scores make such a huge difference. And like even senators like that one can be punishing to it's been the sense of having that one move per at move action per turn. I've gotten so many people off guard with that because they'll like it really affects like chargers they'll charge with the character hit and then plan to move back where they were or like jump somewhere else where they need to go. But because a charge specifies a move action you can't do it again. So it's the I those those punishing and like those those tough ones to to play if you don't have a plan for them. Those ones I definitely agree probably are not going to be seen as much there they're going to be pretty low on list. So so I was expecting the list to look fairly significantly different and I'm kind of amazed at how very similar they look. So one set that was basically a years worth so it went back one year from today's date and then I took a second set the that was just from calendar year 2026 and there's not really much of a difference at all. On the the for the secures for the full year it was mcrn at 14% scoundrels at 10 infinity at 10 blue wedding at nine riots at eight guardians at eight intrusions at eight for 2006 it's mcrn 12 infinity 12 lock down is at nine. Riots nine blue wedding nine guardians seven so it's kind of almost the same thing at least at least towards the top. And it's kind of the same with the extracts it was real quick Patrick I did want to point out one thing on that. That list both side there was only one paid a flip. Yeah and the right oh no we know she ours here is a paid a flip isn't it. Yes, yeah I think she's okay that's like one two three four that's seventh or yeah see there's six there's seventh on the list but yeah yes so the data books are not popular so that that goes to show. Yeah, man man went from seven percent to six percent of fisk went from five percent to three percent. for the extracts, it's for the full year, it was Hammer Scrolls Legacy samples in Human Weapons Montessy and for 2006 it's Hammer Scrolls Legacy Montessy in Human Weapons Samples. So it is, I will confess I'm for as much as I think I think it's a, I think we all agree that the means of selecting crisis definitely has pretty significantly shifted the game. The crisis is actually being played, don't look like they've been pretty sticky in terms of what actually is being played. I'm surprised by that, I will confess. Well I will say that the numbers can be a little, maybe misleading, just for the fact that there's so many crises that they have to share 100% right? Someone from like, someone from like 12% to 9% played is like a 25% reduction in the rate of play. That's true. That's true. It doesn't seem like a lot because it's a small number but like there's, I will say like I'm still surprised that they're like the scoundrels as high as it is and some of the like more fringy stuff but generally speaking like shifting, shifting like a few percentage points in a pool where there's like 12 crises or whatever there are. That's fairly significant. So so where do we think things go from here? So we're kind of well into this, we're kind of well into this current set of rules where we're kind of knocking on the door of the new crises that are coming which is going to blow this whole thing up. But we do have a dep to come that come in just over a month, holy crap, I better get ready and start getting working on that. So what do we think, what do we think, are we just, is this way we're going to be for a while or what do you guys see as next on the horizon and that can be anything from a, an affiliation that that is going to maybe has been under loved and is going to get played more a crisis selection or just anything that you can see that maybe is on its way. JPM start with you so you don't feel like your, say you don't feel like you're, you're playing second fiddle. That's good because I got something that's off to you anyway. The only time Patrick is this, you guys will never believe this. I bumped my, I bumped my headphone amp and turned the power off and the whole time Patrick's like speaking, I'm just like watching his lips move but I can't hear anything. I turn it on and Patrick says like the last four sentences, the last four words of his last sentence and he calls on me. I'm like, he's going to call on me, isn't he? He's going to totally get a call on you. I fucking cast three. I feel like, I'm feeling like, I'm feeling like my law professor, I'm just really bumping up to 11 today. I'm just, I'm just in the zone. Basically, JPM, the only thing I was asking is just, what's coming next? You know, what do you see as kind of the, what we're going to see at maybe an adapter conference, that you're not seeing now? I think Dormamm was kind of out of the bag at this point. I think people are going to be playing them. I think people are going to be probably playing the new stuff. So we're going to see Adam Warlock. I mean, we'll see like some guardians. That's the thing that like never ceases to amaze me with this game is like the, I feel like the player. There's definitely a contingent of players that are like chasing the meta super hard, but he even at the most stupidly busted points of the meta, like there's still a huge variety of stuff that people are playing. So I mean, I don't expect, I mean, I don't expect like an overwhelming amount of anything really, but we will see, I think we'll see some more guardians than we're, we've been used to lately. Is Tang coming out before then? Yes, I believe he is. Okay, so I think we'll see a little bit of Tang just because he's a new guy. He's got a good leadership. He's got a ball like people are people are probably playing a little bit. And obviously we'll see a little bit of the apocalypse. I'll be interested to see if we see, like I was saying earlier, I'll be interested to see if people are playing Asgard just to try to pick on the big guys. I don't know if it actually works. I've never, I haven't actually put it on the table, but I feel like having those spenders based on your, the targets threat value are, those spenders are super deadly. So it kind of seems like a rock paper scissors weapon that the AMG kind of threw into the arena. I'm like, oh, hey, let's introduce this and see what happens. So yeah, I think we'll probably see like a decent amount of stuff I would, I'd have to imagine. I feel like the meta feels pretty good right now. It might be leaning a little bit more at Shishini, but like historically speaking, like I don't think it feels, but I think it feels pretty healthy. I think we'll see a good amount of stuff. Okay, David, his with your off the wall. So I think we're going to see a shift in, I wanted to talk about the characters that people are going to be playing. So like I think that I think there's going to be more, I think people are going to be playing Emma, for example, like I think they're going to be splashing Emma. They're going to be taking her. I think she's good. I think more people are going to be playing Fury, the health bless one for you're good. Like obviously there's people out there that think the whole name or Zemo double bubble thing is busted and I'm assuming that we'll see, we'll see some of that if not a lot of it. Which means maybe there's room in there for shield, right? Because shield S Fury and they got name or and they'll probably bring Zemo. So that's always a good combination. Don't blow my cover, David. Me doing that. I think that there will be, I think we'll probably see maybe a little less of like Shang Chi. Maybe he even gets nerfed before then. But if not, I still think that there might be a lot of these other characters. There might just start becoming more prominent just because of the changes. And yeah, that's what I think there's going to be some character changes that like people are going to be playing stuff that we hadn't really been seeing people play much of. Like I could see people splashing them prime, for example. Like he could be in in some rosters. Yeah, I think it'll be exciting. I'm definitely excited to see what adapt to Council look like. Alex, what do you think? Oh, you know, I damn, JPM David covered a lot of what I was going to say except rescue. That bitch is going to be everywhere. People are going crazy over her. Don't get me wrong. I think she's great Bill, but I think people are too excited for her. She's good, but man, I think Iron Monger is the winner there. I would love to see him. Or so good, but I think people people are just too excited for rescue, even though like he's fine. I don't think she's like busted or anything. So I expect a lot of rescue though because everybody is in love with her. Well, I can tell you I'm probably skewing the curve on that one because I already have rescues slotted into my roster, the micro second that she comes out. So I am definitely on team over excited for rescue. But I also think we're going to see a lot of the new crises, the lockdown and jailbreak, people really enjoying those crises. I think it's going to be so popular is to like the point of over the next month before a depth of con. I'm going to like force those games if my opponent's okay with it just to get the practice because I totally expect those to be everywhere. Yep. I especially particularly locked down. I agree. I'm not sure about jailbreak that one feels nitchy, but lockdown, I do think you're going to see it. I am going to go ahead and call a shot now. I think post-adepticon people are going to be complaining about Adam Warlock kind of the way they complained about CGR Hulk after a couple of LBS go. I just, my interaction and discord is relatively limited, but it's also, I'm in a whole bunch different ones and man every place I'm going it's just a whole my - Oh, I had a Warlock, I'm amazing. So that's, I'm just putting a pin in that. - We'll see posted epitome if that's where we end up. - I just wanna say shout out to Emma 'cause she totally fucks with Warlock so hard, especially if they bring reality with Warlock. He's gonna feel real sad when Emma's like, "No, you're not gonna do any of that." - Emma's just as no, Emma just says no to all of that. - All right. Any kind of final thoughts on the status of the game, kind of where we're sitting, sort of that what feels like the last big hurrah of the current status of the game before we get the new crisis rotation. So David will, no, Alex, we're gonna start back with you. Any kind of final thoughts on where we're at before we close up shop for the night? - I don't have any final thoughts 'cause like I don't wanna think too hard or think as far as, because like you said, like the new crisis is right around the corner. I fully expect it to be a May release at the absolutely, if it's not April, I would be very surprised. So I just don't have any like through final thoughts that we haven't already discussed. So I just don't wanna think too hard about it and ruin any possible expectations thinking about the current meta still. - Conservation of Energy, I'm all about it. I like it. JP, how about you? - Not really. I've basically been playing one affiliation since the changes and I'm only playing like two to three games a week. So it's not like I have a huge pool of data to draw from. I do, it does feel good though. Like the games feel good. Like it's, games are like getting passed like rounds three and four, but they're, it's like, I'm still not seeing like a ton of games, one by tabling or it's still pretty rare to like go to round six. Like it's happening more with the changes for sure to the crisis selection, but I feel like it's in a pretty good, like a healthy state. Like I think when games are ending on like rounds, like round three, I guess technically it could end round two, but that'd be ridiculous. But like round three wins are just a little fast for the game I think. I think getting up into like four and five is probably like the sweet spot. And like obviously six is like fine. It's getting a little long, but I don't know. It feels like the game is in a good spot, at least right now. And obviously that could change with just a few releases i.e. like Adam Warlock possibly. Again, I have no experience with Adam. I haven't played on TTS or anything, so I don't know if he's actually living up to the height, but we shall see if we move, I mean, there's a chance we could move into a meta where like link three tall again, but that's like the maps just aren't as good for that. Maybe if like if it's heavily weighted tortuant and nutrition, everyone's like lowering stuff where it's like not as much of an issue like going down on points, like we might be seeing like the battle of the three tall squads again, but again, the other thing with that is like the threat values, right? Because we had a lot of, we had three 15s, right? It was at two 15s, maybe it was twos. It was a, it was gamma and researcher. Do we have another 15? I felt like we did, but maybe not. Gamma researcher. - Sword. - Sword. - Sword. - Sword. - And what condon herbs was 15 way back in time? - Yeah, I'm not going that far back, but yeah. - Oh, I was just trying to make sure. - But like now is like the minimum of 16, so it makes the squads a little harder to make three tall. Like it was a lot easier to make a three tall 15 squad than a three tall 16 squad. It doesn't seem like a big deal, but when you actually start adding up threat values for different characters, it's like, oh shit. 16 is actually like a lot harder to get to than like one point would make you believe. But we'll see, we'll see if we end up there again. Hopefully not, but if we do, you know, I, you guys know I'm here for it. - It. My closing thoughts would be probably play more games. Get out, play some games, play with the new crisis. Play with new Valkyrie. Her model is amazing. And like I think she's pretty good. And I think our monger's gonna be good. So like I'm excited for the future of what people are gonna be playing. And like I'm sure somebody's gonna add a depth of cons. Somebody's gonna pop out with some crazy off the wall random list that you're like, whoa, this, what is this? And then it like does really well. So who knows? I think you just play, right? Like that's the whole point. - Alrighty, well, what do you think? What's, who's been the big winners? Who's been the big win, big losers? And what's coming next? We'd love to hear from you. Hit us up at all the socials. You can let us know at Woody Vantrocast. If you are part of the Patreon for just an hour or a month, you can come into our discord. And we can have that conversation too. Who's our big winners? Who's our big win losers? We'd love to hear from you as well with that as well. Other than that, thanks for joining us. Thanks for giving us years for our web, web hits and until next time, be good. (dramatic music)