17. Will Tomlins, RVP of Mid-Market & Enterprise at Wiz - Why "Pain and Champion" Still Wins Enterprise Sales

Welcome back to another episode of Inside the Pipeline Throxys Podcast, where we talk to sales leaders at some of our favourite companies. This week we are delighted to be joined by Will Tomlins, who is regional vice president of Mid and Enterprise at Wiz. Wiz is a cybersecurity company that was acquired by Google in their largest acquisition ever 32 billion. It was also the largest transaction in the whole of cybersecurity history. Now before joining Wiz, Will worked at Amazon Web Services, AWS, as a senior sales leader there, and before that he spent 11 years at Canon, he has lead teams, he's built teams. This was a fascinating conversation talking about how cybersecurity is changing in the wake of AI, how Wiz's products are growing, now that they're launching their own agents, but also specifically on how Will approach his sales. How he builds his sales team, the things that he focuses on when he is trying to win a deal, and how he coaches his team through deal conversations themselves. I hope you find a lot of value in this episode. If you're enjoying the podcast, as always, please give us a like when you see our content on social media, let us know your thoughts, and if you have a better time, give the podcast a rating on Spotify or Apple or wherever you're listening to your podcast. For now, I'll hand it over to our conversation with Will Tomlins. Will, thanks so much for joining us. How's your day been so far? Yeah, awesome. Pleasure to be here. Ender quarter for us, so it's all heating up back in the office, which is good fun. We'll go and well though, so that nice to get out of the heat for an hour or two and just come and spend some time with you. Yeah, well thanks so much for giving us that time, I know it's obviously a very busy period, so it can't be too easy coming away from the office. And I think today we want to talk a bit about your career. I think you have a really interesting career arc having worked at some very recognizable brands. Canon, you spent 10 years, there were 11 years there, and then AWS, growing into a leadership role there, and now Wiz, which is one of the darlings of the tech space as we were speaking about before we started recording. Where did the intention to go into sales come from? I was very aware coming out of university and out of education, trying to do something that AI enjoyed, but I would be good at, and I remember like being really pulled towards marketing as a sort of like, you know, when you came out of university, it's like, where do I start? I did like a psychology degree, psychology and philosophy degree, love reading, love exploring ideas, and I love the psychology of human nature and the way we all operate with one another, and feel like a deep connection with that generally. But thought, okay, how am I going to spend time with people and also kind of being a role I love, love writing, so went into press, the press world, PR world. And you know what, it was okay, and I found though that over the years I was having to work a lot harder than everyone else to be as good as it as I was, right? So I got to like a PR manager and I was like, okay, I'm doing okay here, but I'm not finding this natural. I'm not finding, like, this is, this is hard. Yeah. And I remember one time I was doing a TV interview for, or prepping a director for a TV interview, and we were sitting there talking through the key message he's going to land and he just said to me, well, what are you doing with this job for, like come and do, come and do sales. I think it'd be really good at it. So that was that. Like, when in, when in from there? Incredible. And so that took you into to Canon and why specifically Canon, presumably it was the connection you had with this person, but were there other things about that company that drew you to it? Yeah, I guess, you know, things have changed a huge amount in the last, like if you look at the companies that are really large and influential, like it's changed hugely through the 80s and 90s, Canon was a huge business. And when it comes to, when it came to IT, right, like pre-cloud, they ran major contracts and still do, probably. But like before the likes of AWS and cloud came around, right, people ran IT differently. And I think it was very much like a tenderled world of Fujitsu's and we did a lot of outsourced IT which would evolve many, many suppliers, kind of a kind of a complex ecosystem of IT, which Canon was kind of heavily, heavily involved in. Because most people, when they think of Canon, would think cameras. Yeah. So what was the, what was the software that you guys were selling there? Canon were actually doing incredible things like the likes of Cambridge Assessment, at the time, you know, end-to-end process for exam papers was run via Canon, right, through knitting together of people, processes, technology, third party suppliers, software suppliers. Obviously the market has changed hugely now, and like, it's just that disparate nature of tying together IT contracts just doesn't exist in the same way. What I remember, like, when I look back at that time was, was sales has changed hugely between then and now, like, I remember my first sales interview after that moment. The first thing, the sales director said to me, he put me in front of a sales manager and he said, look, he said, you don't look like you could do sales. He said, you know, this is a man's world, son. No. It's like, wow, okay. So I didn't get that job, I didn't get that job. But then I went and worked for this incredible sales manager called Stuart Rising, who kind of taught me the very early, the importance of, like, as a leader, like, the, like, coaching from the front, like, being in sales cycles with you. And like, the most valuable place for a leader to be is there by your side, helping you prep for meetings, like, the best coaching for a seller of any sort. And I still believe this today is the feedback you get after a meeting, when you get when you're prepping for a meeting, the support you need, when you're feeling uncomfortable, it's a big meeting. And actually, you need your leader to step up and perform in that meeting too, right? So, yeah. That was a really valuable lesson to learn early, which I've taken through my career. Try and describe what the sales stack looked like, like, what technology were you guys using? How were you selling? You've already said how different it was back then to how it is now, but what were you actually using? Yeah. I suppose we were, like, writing that digital transformation world where people were still trying to gather their data together and moving between, like, analog processes through the likes of print and scanning technology into, like, digital processes. That was, like, the heart of my time selling at Canon was, like, the huge change process happening across major corporations, where people are still trying to get to grips with, how do I move information around? Yeah. Globally around the world. And a lot of that's still involved, like, like I said, like, people process technology, like, at the time we hit, we knitted together scanning software with cloud-based document management software, that would then move, obviously, all of your documents into, like, on-premise infrastructure was then procured through those sorts of frameworks, with the likes of Fujitsu, et cetera, and then the management of all of that would come back down into sort of processes into your ERP system knitted together with Oracle. So it was this kind of huge web, really, of infrastructure. Plus involving all of, like, Canon's cameras as well, like, heavily involved, depending which customers you'd be involved, you'd be, you'd be talking to, right? There were, like, all of their technologies from hardware, software was, they were quite transformative at the time. Yeah. But very quickly, I think, became dated. Were you, were you cold-calling back then? Yeah, massively. Yeah, and I loved it. Like, that was a huge buzz, and I remember, like, overriding feeling I had when I went into sales with this, like, relief and, like, warmth to sort of doing something that I could do. And I remember distinctly thinking, I'd never really been really good at anything in my life before. Like, not really good. You know, you see some people just natural, like, sportsman, natural musicians, whatever. Yeah. Like, could play sport, and I played guitar growing up and stuff, but was never natural. And then the only time my life, I felt, like, really comfortable in myself was when I went into sales, to be honest. And why do you think that is? What are the skills at the core of that? Yeah. I think deep, like, my superpower, really, is probably my ability to kind of connect with people. So I think my EQ is sort of my, and at school, I really felt that, like, it was something which the education system I went through wasn't able to recognize that, right? So I was, like, felt very stuck in a system that would look at, like, my maths scores, for example, like, I remember getting a C at GCSE maths and just feeling, like, feeling, like, crap. Like, had this, like, I always had this awareness of, like, how can I get some good advice around how to use my people skills? Like, like, it never came. And even for my own children now, like, I'm really aware of that that system is still quite, like, antiquated and not really fit to look at people's life skills and translating those through into sort of something you can use tangibly. So tell me a bit more about the transition through your years at Canon. I know that we've obviously not got 11 years to talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, talk us through the different roles you had and how you progressed through that organization because it was an impressive, yeah. So I, I interestingly, right, I think I'm very competitive and, you know, rightly or wrongly, one of my drivers that I get up every day is to always prove to myself I can do it. Right. And I think whenever I get to an organization, I'll always have that insecurity, call it an insecurity. I kind of call it something it's like my own widget, right? And I think, you know, this question marks as to whether that's, that's healthy as a driver. But I think always trying to push myself on and prove to myself that I can go and, you know, do things that maybe I was told at school I couldn't or like achieve things that, you know, like, I think other people might have doubted that I could achieve. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember being like really driven around this idea of like there was no question mark about it. I was going to be the top forming sales. Yeah. And it was like not about whether I would do it. I just looked around the room daily and just worked out how hard people were working, what they were doing, took all the best parts of what they did. And then I just kind of like non-negotiable made it happen. And was that something that you just naturally did yourself or did you have leaders around you who taught you that that? that was the best way to grow and develop. Yeah, I think I built my own, I remember building my own recipe book of things that worked. And then actually Canon quite early on introduced the growing model, which is an early form of playbook. And I remember that being a revolution for me to suddenly start going, oh my goodness, I'm doing that, but I'm doing that without really knowing I'm doing it. And actually there's this sort of framework that I can now work with to go and go and discover pain, find pain, quantify that pain, put metrics against it. Find somebody cares about your deal, get them to come along the journey with you in that deal and get them to sort of go and sell for you internally. And all of these things like I was doing actually, but like I was just doing it naturally. And so what was the point of which you decided that you would leave Canon and what drew you to AWS? Yeah, I remember like some of Canon's large customers, and I won't say any names, we were working with at the time and I was in a sales leadership position. Like we were seeing our margins and getting eroded and it was just AWS doing that. Like we just were seeing that actually all of these, all of these areas of the business that we had had long-term contracts with them were just disappearing overnight. Yeah, we realized actually, it was just taking over their entire stack and their way of working. And it was just unbelievable. Yeah. And I remember just seeing more and more and more of AWS and eventually I got invited to interview over AWS and met a fantastic sales leader, Amanda Slyte, who's now runs public sector at Microsoft. Amanda was just an amazing strong leader who backed me and supported me and allowed me to come in and have fun and introduced my ideas, which I'm forever grateful to her for. And are you trying to embody that in how you approach your team and building that team now and giving them the freedom to express themselves? I definitely look around a lot at what other leaders are doing and constantly try and evolve and change and develop my own ways of working. And I think going to a place like AWS helps that and going to Wiz, I think was a whole nother level really. Really? Yeah, I really think when I look back in my career, like the way Wiz operates from a people-processed technology, I've never seen anything like it. It seems like a, on the outside, it seems like a friendly company to work at. Is there an intention to create that brand? Yeah, so I think every part of Wiz, I would say, has slightly different cultures, but Alice Carlyle, if you've never met Alice Carlyle, I'd really recommend you to. She's, again, she was a leader at Zscaler. She now runs the UK business at Wiz and she really built, I think, a culture which, if you were to analyze it, you would probably struggle to ever recreate it again. You know, and this old adage of to be a leader, you need to have followers. You know, it's kind of never true. She's, you know, everyone in that business is there for Alice, supporting Alice. Like, you know, and she's an incredible leader. What's her position, sorry? So she's the AVP of UK. So and for France as well, she wants France and UK. And so how many people are reporting into her broadening, I mean, direct report and then undecided? Yeah, I suppose within UK we probably 50 to 100 people. And how often would you be hearing from her? And how regular does that input have to be to create such a strong sort of cohesive audience, I guess? Yeah, I think Alice has got a really good handle on the core disciplines of being a good human, showing up in the right way and setting the tone and standard. So big thing Alice, the first day I was, I was, I was at Wiz kind of, she makes her effort to go around and clean every, like, cleaner meeting room before she leaves it, makes sure the meeting room is exactly as she left it. Yeah, right? So like, never leave cups in a meeting room. Yeah, really basic thing. But it's just have respect for people around you. Like never, like, never leave your job for someone else to do. You do it. It's interesting that my older brother was in the Grenadier Guards. And so every single day they have to make their bedroom in the precise way that it was before, they have to fold all their clothes and to make sure everything is perfect. And you sort of go, why? And then you go, well, why not? Like, if you're dropping standards at that point, then later down the line, you're going to drop standards somewhere else. It's like starting with the very basic things and then building upon that. Yeah, and I think those basic things tell you a lot about someone as well. And I think, you know, it's really interesting, right? 'Cause we do a lot of hiring. And I remember like many, many years ago, the hiring profile for like a top company would be, you know, someone who sold the most, who has been on the most president clubs, who has achieved the most individual accolades. And actually, like the reality is, I think there's a real awakening that like, for these days for a software business to be successful, it's about the greater good, it's about the greater team. Yeah. And sure, like it was fantastic to have like, big hitters, individual big hitters, but they have to buy in to what you're doing. Otherwise, it really doesn't work. Yeah. And that's been my kind of experience. I'm sure there are companies where it does work for them. And that, you know, and I'd love to know there are tuition rates though, because, you know, if you're only driven by money and your own, your own gain, I think it does a road culture and over time. And going back to AWS, were you building a team there? Is that when you started hiring, or were you hiring a cannon before? Yeah, so when I first went to AWS, I was given the job of like leading the North in Scotland. And what's quite funny, because it was still quite like, early days of cloud, of cloud like migrations really. Like, I'm honest, a lot of people were moving to the club, but like people still didn't have the skills to kind of to run their AWS environments at speed. So the biggest challenge going back a number of years was actually like, the number of people in this country like developers, the number of active developers who could really like, who could deploy code at speed. And like the view at the time was that will be the biggest thing in the UK economy that will stop us from moving at speed to really see the value of the cloud. And move on a few years now, like that conversation's changed and like my view is like, it's totally changed. And we just don't have that issue anymore. The risk profile within businesses is totally different now. Like deploying agents now, like autonomously, allowing like the risk profiles completely gone. Whereas five years ago, like the risk profile for someone to do something outside of certain guardrails was like, non-negotiable, you just couldn't do it. How different, you know, from a security perspective, how different does the general cloud security space look to five years ago? Yeah, I think things have changed massively. Like five years ago, it felt, it did feel more passive. Like, you know, AWS felt, for example, very secure. I AWS secure the cloud, it's the customer's job to sort of like turn the key on their environment and lock it, right? But AWS would give you everything you needed. I think the, in that time, so many workloads have moved to the cloud, like people have lost control. Many customers have lost control of what's in their cloud, have lost visibility of what's in the cloud, who's deploying what, who has access to what, where, you know, where you leave in containers with secrets, which, you know, might contain PII data, which no one even knows that's like a still active or deployed. Yeah, so this, this, this sort of ability for a CTO or a CSO to turn around and say, okay, what do you know is, where do you know your risk is? Yeah, and it's like, I would say five years ago, you know, you could manage it. Now with the attack, the vector being so wide, and the risks of attacks being so high is become a problem. And I think like the problem was always going to be one of scale. Like, at first, when people had Mac, like, didn't have all of their crown jewels in the cloud, they didn't have all of their production workers in the crowd, like, it could be, it could be managed. I definitely think that over time, like, that's become, and Shadow AI is, is such a big talking point in the moment. I had Alex Padgett from Vanter on the podcast a few weeks ago, and we talked a lot about Shadow AI and people putting sensitive data into personal chat GPT and personal cloud accounts. I noticed that you posted about the Wiz MCP within Claude now. How different has businesses using Claude made it? Like, how difficult has that made it to, for businesses to stay secure? I would say like, even in 12 months, the change is unbelievable. When I first joined Wiz, people were still talking about like cloud security, vulnerability management, like in its traditional form. And where are my vulnerabilities? How do I manage them? Where are my biggest risks? Where can, where are my attack paths into my cloud? In a year, every conversation now has become about, okay, like, which of my developers are using which developer tools to deploy code autonomously? I can't see it, like, we don't know what's happening, we don't have AI governance around that, but more so than that, like, we're just gonna keep, like, generally speaking, like the feeling is that actually governance will come later, and actually the speed of tournaments what's really important right now. So I've just, I've actually, you know, had definitely been shocked by companies of all shapes and sizes, the largest to the smallest, really adopting AI within their code base at the speed that they have. It's been amazing to see. And I'll see, for Wiz, this was kind of, it was like the perfect moment really, 'cause as a platform was probably had more visibility and context of people's cloud environments, customers cloud environments, they could see where everything was, you can see the context as to whether, okay, does this vulnerability have a critical attack path to the internet yet, or no? Is it a high issue or critical issue? And actually off the back of that, suddenly you bring AI in, which AI is, remember, just another compute workload. It's nothing else. It's just another compute workload that sits in the cloud or sits within your IDE or sits within your code base. And actually, the idea now is that an agent could be within your environment for moments, seconds, 10 seconds, 20 seconds, well, actually we can, we've got visibility wherever your agents sit. So I think it was a perfect moment for Wiz to sort of build agents within our own system to start kind of fighting AI with AI. Yeah, it's been such great timing. and presumably going back into this sort of sales world that has created a great opportunity for your sales team to relish the opportunity that's there now. I'd love to talk a bit more about building a team and what you look for in employees when you're hiring. When you sit down in front of someone, how do you approach that initial interview? What are you looking for in a future sales person that sits under Wilton, London? Yeah, so firstly, I always like to step away and imagine when we've built this team, how do I want it to feel and look? So at the moment, I mean, end of quarter, right? We've got, like, this is the moment where often a magical thing's happened, right? And how do you want everyone to feel? What are the characters going to be like in that team? How are they going to react when things get really tough? Like, what are we going to do if we've just got two people on the number? The other three who aren't on the number? How are they going to support the two people who are trying to deliver? Are they going to show up? Are they going to hide? So, like, having, like, sometimes just bringing that to life, like, visualizing what the end output is going to be in your team is quite powerful for me. So in that, in that, in that, like, like, building a football team, right, you need different, like, different characters of all shapes and sizes, all different backgrounds. So the teams to be as diverse as physically possible. And, and ultimately, big hiring criteria for me is like, I will have seen your CV, so I understand what you've done. So I understand I'm more and more or less. And what are you looking for there when you're looking at CV? Well, I think I'm definitely looking for, like, balancing risk first and foremost. So how much, if you're to come and work for me, how much am I going to have to teach you versus you already know me? Right. How quick is your ramp going to be, firstly? So if we're talking from a technical perspective, a CV perspective, how hard is that going to be? Are you coming from a recruitment background where, you know, you might be a brilliant seller, but actually this can be a, like, a big learning curve for you to go in, like, not skill in in the cloud or not skill in security and understanding. It's not going to be a no for me from that perspective, but I'd really want to know upfront, like, how are you going to manage that, that, that risk, right? I don't have an active conversation about that. Like, how, like, what do you need from me? What do you need from my team? How are you going to manage that? And so I, I, that's the stuff that really matters to me. Like, the results, yeah, like, of course, but I'm also really trying to, like, look at how people have reacted to bad moments. So, you know, and I, I love when people are really honest with me about their sales results and five people that haven't had the best sales results, but they, they've, they've really learned through that period. And actually, you can really tell that, like, they've done a lot of their learning now, you know, it's about that trajectory, right? Like, I've read recently people testing people on co-calling in an interview, and actually the wrong approach is to listen to them co-calling once and, and decide whether they're good or not. The better approach is to listen to them co-calling once, give them feedback, then get them to co-calling again and see what the improvement was. If they haven't improved, then maybe you can say, okay, you know, the sort of as small sample size still, but yeah, it's not a great signal. But if you see that improvement, even if they weren't very good at the start, like, the trajectory is going in the right place. So, co-calling is a really good example of some skill I massively value, right? But more than, like, more than sales acumen. So, the one thing I can't give a seller is I can't really get them into the room, right? I do help with PG on PG Monday, it's like I call execs and constantly doing outreach, but generally speaking, like, first of all, which you have to get in the room with someone. Okay, once you're in the room, now we're talking about how are we going to prep for the meeting? Who are you bringing into the meeting? What's your stakeholder map looking like? What's your view on that? Well, what's your value hypothesis? As you start to build out your three ways, why should we be in that room? Who are you talking to? Why are we talking to them? What else should we be talking? Is this a technical meeting or is this, like, an executive meeting? We prepare for those differently. Is it a meeting where we want you to introduce you to someone else? Then we start getting into something which I can help with, and as a team, we can build a muscle around. But if you can't get in the room, like, we can't start. And do you have, you know, your A's doing call calling themselves? Do you have a team of SDRs who are doing the top of funnel? Like, how does that all work at Whiz? Yeah, so it's Whiz is incredibly hands-on. I would call it like an ADHD business, right? Yeah, it's like really, like, lots of dopamine hits in terms of we celebrate big time when we land cold calls. We celebrate planning for meetings in the right way. Like, we enjoy a good workshop as much as we do landing a deal. All of that. That whole chase for us is where the learning happens. And that's the part that kind of really, like, it does mean something, right? Because you can, if you deliver a good workshop and you get the eB into that workshop and you get 14, 15 different stakeholders in there, and you build an artifact that says, this is your current state, and this is where we think you can take you. Regardless of the outcome of that sales cycle, that's a skill you've built. It can be replicated, right? How competitive, how ambitious are the targets that you give your sales team? So what's interesting with us, first of all, is we, like, my mid-enterprise and enterprise team, we're predominantly a new business, like, new logos, which is kind of crazy, right? When you think Whiz has got so, we've got so many things to sell to our existing customers, like our platform, so broad and vast, like, that's something I need to probably go and fix, like, but actually, right now, the ability to go and talk with new people is something that's so exciting. And how, how long are the sales cycles? Well, interestingly, Whiz before playbook, the product, obviously, unbelievable. What was happening was a lot of customers were plugging Whiz in. The magic was happening, because magic does happen when you plug Whiz in, but actually a lot of the business value and the pain and discovery hadn't been done before, right? So what was happening was deals were taking longer to sign in negotiation, right? Because you didn't necessarily have the business case or the champion in place to, um, go and get that deal signed. So Dali and Mike Ernest and Alice and Josh Reiner brought the playbook in. What they were looking to really do was anchor us, like, earlier in the sales cycle to a pain and champion. Like, if we don't have a pain and champion, there's no point plugging Whiz in. It's a huge, like, it becomes a science project, right? It's a huge, like, waste of our time as well and the customer's time. If you're not able to turn around and at the end of that, be able to agree on how do we move forwards with the deal. So what do you think is the most important thing in sales? Is it understanding the pain point or is it something else? Without a doubt, like, pain and champion for me is the, is the most critical thing in any sales cycle. Anytime a deal slips or falls away, we analyse it at the end after every single deal at sales cycle. And you know immediately if you haven't got a champion who's really feeling like an emotional pain to the problem and actually driving it through to the finish line for you, almost always it comes down to not having a champion, like, or having not discovered enough pain. Why would they change? And like, I really don't see any differences between strategic deals, enterprise deals, growth deals, like the smallest of deals. I think that fundamentally is at the heart of whether sales cycles move quickly or not. And how do you identify if the champion has enough influence to drive the deal forward? Is that something that takes EQ or is that something that you can actually work out? Yeah, so we, after we've done a certain amount of discovery, we've got something we call a new business meeting, which is we would sit down with our champion and ideally, the executive buyer and we would play back everything. We'd say, listen, this is everything we've uncovered as we've worked with you and your team. There's three, four weeks. And actually, like, we really believe we've got an opportunity to go and deliver some real value for you. Like, are we aligned on this? And at this point, we would talk like commercials even. And the reason we call this a new business meeting is because, like, we want alignment that they're in agreement. This is a problem that needs fixing. Before we go and waste lots and lots of time, later down the line, if we haven't got that, like, there's no point going further. So our win rates are really high, mainly because we qualify out very early. So it sounds like the human element of sales is so important. And I know we're sort of coming towards the end here, but AI is obviously changing how sales organizations operate. It's going to continue to change that. It sounds like the team aspect of ways is so important. How are you approaching AI and what do you think that a sales team is going to look like and what will their core skills be in the next year, two years, five years? So I have two things. I think, like, we've definitely got to start so it was that if you're not transforming yourself with the way you're using AI daily, then you're falling behind very quickly. And we see it as well, right? And I think that's come right down from the very top. Like, all of us should really challenge ourselves how we're using it. It's a tool which can make us go faster, be better, like, make more informed decisions. So if you're not doing that today, like, that's a major problem. I think then when it comes to using it in sales cycles, like, we use it all the time, but only as an aid. Yeah, right? So I think, you know, our sellers come to us to get better to build that muscle. So one day, they can either be the best they can be in sales. People come to us to be the best. And that's like a privilege for us to be able to teach them and help them become that. But then after they might want to go into a leadership role and as part of being a leader, right, you need to be able to then lead from the front coach from the front, develop from the front. And, you know, AI can't really do that for you. Is it my opinion? Yeah. And that's very valid. One question that we always ask our guests is, what is something that you've changed your mind on recently? Yeah, I think something I've changed my mind on recently is that, like, what the way we operate yesterday isn't the way we'll operate tomorrow. And I think, you know, as a leader, you've got to have a belief system, but you've got to be really adaptable to change. And, like, give you an example of that, like, even our, our playbook and the way we're going to market, like, is changing and evolving all the time. And I think if you're not, like, in the business, if you're outside the business and looking from the outside in, you'll never really know the truth as to whether your ideas are working or not. So I think, like, being, being in the business to then constantly evolve your way of working is really key. I would say before I got to whiz, I thought, you know, I think vast majority of sales leaders are not in their business. Yeah, I'm not coaching from the front. And actually, as a statement, like, generally, I would say they're adding zero value. And you know, if you are a sales leader that is not in the business in deals with your reps, you really might as well not be there. What does that actually look like when you're in the deal with your team? Like are you going as granular as like looking at their emails? No, I think it's coming to like winning together where essentially you've got your running a deal, you've got an account team that is around that deal and you're very clear, everyone's very clear on the role they're playing within that, right? So this is not about taking over on micro-managing, this is this is more about like being deeply involved and having an opinion on how we or how we help progress the deal. Yeah. Nothing else. It's not to criticize anyone or to make or to check what anyone's doing. Like it's totally that's not it at all. It's to move faster, build bigger deals and reduce the risk. And finally, like looking back at the style your sales career to where you're at now, like what do you think the person back then would see now looking at you and where you are and what do you think they would say to that person? Well, I would hope, and I think one thing that stood me in my career really well to this point, whether it does in the future or not is to be seen. But I think fundamentally like being a good person, being yourself in an environment where you can be yourself has always served me well. Yeah. And I'll continue to to be that person. So I think if I was ever in a position where that was jeopardised would be a real problem for me. And I think if I look back, like my career, I think I've probably just lent on the skills that are most natural to me. So if you're in a role where you're not using your skills to the absolute highest ability, you know, you're really kind of doing yourself with this service is what I'd say. I know it sounds quite a basic thing to say, right? But many, many people are not doing the right jobs for themselves, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's it. That's it. It's a whole new sort of episode to talk about recruitment and how people get a job to choice and change a lot. Where can people find out more about you and where can people find find out more about ways? Yeah. Can find me on LinkedIn, I guess, and reach out. I do a lot of coaching with different people outside of the organisation as well. So if anyone ever wants to talk and have a chat, I'd love to love to meet people. It's a little about connecting, right? And I think with regarding whiz, you know, I think I would go and just just check out the news right now there's loads going on. Awesome. Well, well, thank you so much for joining us. It's been absolutely pleasure. Thanks for it. Awesome. Cheers. What a legend. Anyone would be lucky to work under him, learn from him. Whiz must be a great place to be working right now. Next week, we are very excited to be joined by Connor Highland, another regional vice president this time of Amir at Comply Advantage, which is the leading provider of AI driven fraud detection technology and financial crime risk data. I hope you enjoyed that description. That's all for now. We'll see you next week.