Wider Mission Part Two

(upbeat music) - This is Mission Disco. - This is Mission Disco. - Conversation about imagination. - Innovation. - And Christian Mission. - In Ireland and beyond. - Welcome everybody to another episode of Mission Disco. I always have to thank Simon. What is our podcast called? Mission Disco, it is. - It is Mission Disco, yeah. - That's really important to remember. - It's really good to be recording another one on our Young Adolf series survey that we did a couple of years ago. And we're going to get into, this is our second topic or second conversation around mission and I'm joined here with Simon and some guests as well. How are you today, Simon? - I'm good. - Thanks for us, yeah. Looking forward to having these conversations. I've enjoyed them so far as we've recorded them. So looking forward to hearing from two special guests. We have from different parts of the country, Ross and I are on the East Coast. And I suppose I only, you're kind of on the East Coast as well as a little bit more north. So we have Iona Holt and Luke Hawkins. It's good to have you both. Don't introduce yourselves. Iona, do you wanna start? Tell us who you are or where you are. - Yeah, I'm very happy to be here. I'm Iona, I'm 20. I go to Queens University, Belfast. When I live up here, I study anthropology and English. So I always like to say it's a very employable degree. Really a lot of job prospects going, but now I'm very passionate about, I've always been passionate about like, he's advocacy and I've been involved in a few programs to do with justice and peace and reconciliation. And that'll be where my heart would lie. And I also used to have a podcast called Surles, which was all about bringing light to social justice issues. Yeah, definitely feel like that's somewhere that, God would leave me to actively engage in. So yeah, very happy to be here. - Very good. You said you used to have a podcast, you don't drink anymore? - Not the moment. I stopped doing it a few years ago, just like from time commitments, but it would be something I'd want to definitely start up again. - Very good. Thank you. - And Luke, you're in Mullingar. - Yeah, I'm in Mullingar. So I work for the Churchill Island Youth Department. My full job title is Youth Ministry Development Offices Southern Region, which is quite a mouthful, but essentially it just means I support all the youth ministry in the Churchill Island in the South. That can range from schools to churches, to youth groups, confirmation services, and also getting people to our festivals, like some of madness and things like that. - Very good. Your definition of your job title is nearly shorter than the job title of the show. (laughing) - It's much easier to say. And I should have said as well, I'm also training for ordination of the Churchill Island, so I'm currently doing a Masters in Theology, which includes a unit on mission. So I hopefully I'll be able to bring a bit of that into today's conversation as well. - Excellent. - That's brilliant. I think it's worth saying to all our listeners as well that if they want to get a copy of the survey, it is available on PraxisMovement.ie, and you can download it for free there. It was conducted in 2023, I think Simon was that right? - Yeah, possibly, yeah. - 2023, 24 in partnership with Tierfund, Ireland, and Fox Magazine. So, and it was really the purpose of it, was really just to listen to young adults, get their view on faith, and church, and mission, and various topics just to hear where they're at, and how the church, and particularly Churchill leaders, can respond to that. So that's by way of background. - Yeah, yeah, it was really interesting. And I think the purpose of these podcasts is we kind of identified as four or five main themes that kind of came out of it, are highlighted in the survey, and we've done podcasts and episodes on those different themes. So you may be listening to this in isolation, there are others around us before and after, but the podcasts looked at those different themes, so I'm kind of unity and spiritual formation. And this episode is around kind of a broader understanding or a wider understanding of mission, how did young adults understand what mission is? So we want to talk through that, and there's two episodes under each of those topics. The first one we reported with Anne, was kind of looking at the results, and talking a little bit with Anne about why the questions and what popped out for her. So the second episode then is talking through, what does it look like on the brain, and how do we understand how young adults think, and that's why we have the expertise in my own and loop to give us all the answers. So we're looking forward to chatting to you both through this today's episode. Maybe starting off, either of you kind of as you think about mission and young adults, and I don't know whether you had a chance to look at the survey, was there anything particularly kind of either quotes or stats that came out, that kind of struck you, surprised you, 'cause they were not what you expected, or confirmed maybe what you think already, was there anything particular in it that struck you? I was genuinely just struck by the fact that it predominantly said that young people were very engaged and actively committed to the church. I don't know why I didn't expect that to be the case, but I find it more striking reading the individual stories and the quotes, because that's where you actually get the proper personal information from and people's different experiences of church, and maybe there was, it was mostly mixed between positive and negative experiences, but I just find the individual stories to be really, really striking, but yeah. - Yeah, they kind of give a little bit of life to just a start, don't they? Kind of stories and people's quotes. - Luke, what did you think it's you? - Yeah, exactly like I own, actually, the quote to the end under section 6.4, just there's some really well articulated stuff in there. People really have a deep and rich understanding of what mission is, which you kind of don't really get from the initial question, what does the word mission mean to you? I suppose my main thought from that is having read that whole section, it was kind of like, "Okay, so people know I suppose the Bible definition "of what mission is, go and make disciples of all nations, "that's all the thing." But then actually what that looks like living it out, there's a vast, rich, very detailed for some people, understanding of what that actually looks like, which is way more than just teaching and yelling the Bible at people, which is what some people often think mission just is. So yeah, it was really encouraging that it was a rich understanding of mission. - Was there anything that surprised you both in those comments or quotes at the end? - I do think it is just like there's clearly a good yearning to just see the church to flourish and thrive and perhaps young people are coming to the conclusion that there's a bit of a stagnancy or they're also coming to the conclusion that we're aging into the brackets that now we're gonna become the leaders, the net of the next generation, then there's almost like what do we want to say? Now we have that sphere of influence. And yeah, similar to look like those quotes from section 6.4, it's just like there's a hunger, but perhaps not the platform to kind of engage in those ideas and concerns. - Interesting, maybe just a question and then we can maybe talk about those platforms. Do you think, I just was maybe in different conversations I've had over the past year or so, just that even the word mission, and Likki talked about the question was just what is mission? And there's some dictionary definitions and there's biblical definitions, there's lots of different things and there is a broad definition of it. Is, or maybe I don't know, maybe you could answer this question. Is there a, what do people think when they hear the word mission? Is there a sense of do they understand this? Is it a word that people use or drawn to, God's mission in the world? Where does that face or sit within young adults? - I think if people hear the word mission, they will immediately go to like overseas humanitarian mission trips, you know, like that idea of going to Africa and building a school, like a group of middle-class young people going off and saving people in their world countries, and that would be what people would immediately be drawn to when they hear the word mission, and perhaps not so much mission in their own sphere, in their own community, or mission would be, I feel like people would think of Lexism, and like, you know, summer missions, but again, not mission daily throughout the year, and in your sphere of context. - Okay, thanks, Luke, you obviously are working with the Church of Ireland across the whole, well, majority of the island. What's your kind of understanding of what comes up in conversations for you and kind of young adults, and how they see mission, I think about mission? - Yeah, so this is something I talked to a lot of people about. I think when they hear that word mission, it's very much kind of what I own and talks about in terms of overseas trips and things, but if it's in terms of that home, I remember when I did something in the school where I was chaplain, and I said, we're gonna have a mission week, and there was almost sort of a panicked expression on people's faces, because to them, mission week meant standing on the street corner, preaching from the Bible, almost even yelling at people, and mission is way more than that, and I think actually you can see that in the responses to the survey. It's loving people. It's being incarnational, if I can use that word. It's going into people's communities, going into their lives and expressing the love of Jesus in whatever way that might be. And so actually one of the things we did on that mission week was just have a prayer meeting, and we had snacks, and people just came and ate snacks and shouted, and we prayed a bit, and we just met some more people that we didn't know, so that was what mission was. I think there's a general, when people hear that word, I think there's a bit of an uncomfortableness, because first of all, the young adults might think, oh, I can't be going off and just telling people about Jesus, like that's a bit rude, kind of invading people's lives, but also maybe I don't feel ready for that. You know, I don't feel ready or equipped, or what if they ask a difficult question, or questions like that. So I think, yeah, it was really great to see the report, and the survey kind of showed that it was more than just that, because in my experience, sort of a very traditional sort of, where I was quite rural Church of Ireland, it'd be very sort of prayer book kind of service, mission is very much seen as kind of either preaching or certainly going overseas. Yeah, that's helpful. Do you, I suppose maybe a question of kind of, if young adults or young people don't use the word mission or have particular connotations of it, how are they maybe living their lives missionally or living their lives with Jesus, following Jesus in those spaces, even using that word? So what does that look like with young adults? What are they doing? Even if they don't necessarily use that word or think of it as mission? Because our definitely are taught to go towards kind of overseas and not here. I suppose I remember having a conversation with a couple of 60 year students in the school, and we just run a Christmas Nativity event for transition years, sort of fourth year. And I said to the guys, you know, we've basically just done a mission there, and again, they look confused. Because all we'd done was teach the Bible, and get people to explore the Nativity story and what it meant for them in today's world. But that's mission, and they hadn't realized. So I suppose they're doing all sorts of things. They're young adults, they're a lot of young adults. I know are leading youth groups or children's work. They're volunteering in homeless shelters or helping out with church services and things. They're doing stuff like Christmas events, all sorts of things that they might not even realize could be referred to as mission. It's a witness to the world of who Christ is. But they don't realize it's mission. I suppose that's the real thing. And that's what I realize having read the survey that there are some people that really do understand that those wider things refer to mission. Yeah. Oh, you know, what's your kind of experience of that, as opposed to in the rent? You're obviously living with an arranged college students all the time. Like what does their understanding of, how are they living out? The gospel living out there, related to Jesus, maybe using that word. I think, especially at Queens, like we have a massive Christian union and there's a very big sort of influence of Christianity on campus. A lot of active engagement with the student body. And you can see people like on the streets, you know, engaging individually or on a wider scale. And then we also have, like we said, we have a mission week. And so there's a bunch of different events that are around. But I think mission, for a lot of young people, is almost boxed into that sense of just like spoken evangelism. How can I spread the good news of Christ? And how can I, you know, it's like almost like crowd control. Like how can I like tell as many people as possible about Jesus? But there's not so much that sense of just how can I model an embodied Christ in everything that I do? How can I actively pursue authentic relationship? And I think maybe that's where it's lacking. You know, in a Christian country, like Ireland, that's so steeped in rich religious heritage. Perhaps there's a sense that spoken evangelism isn't as effective in the modern day. And actually young people are more seeking that kind of, just that January, that authentic relationship that Christ modeled in the Bible. But yeah, that's why I have seen mission on campus so far, isn't it? I think it's really interesting your perspective on that. And as I'm listening to you both, it's like we need a new imagination for what mission could look like, particularly in the spheres that you are both operating and working in. And I just wonder, have young adults sort of inherited a kind of more narrow view as we're describing it? And my question is, what do you think needs to happen for that imagination to be expanded? To see mission as all of the activity of God and bringing wholeness and redemption and healing in all areas of life? I mean, I think casting a vision, it requires strategy, I think without strategy, a vision just can seem like an idea or a drain, but a strategy involves like, pointing ideas of other people, like, yes, bathing it in prayer, obviously, but that comes as a collective. And you need to be able to get people on board with your vision for mission. And so I think there just needs to be more engagement across the churches, just together. There's a polarization between the churches, I think like a sense of competition almost, but I think there just needs to be collective engagement. And Simon, we were talking about this at Drowington, but just, we need to model that leader of leadership, model that collective discipleship of Christ for young people, not just for young people for the wider church as well, but we need to be able to do that together. We're called to be creatures who depend on community and depend on each other. And I think for that sense of vision, we need to seek the gaps, but see how we can fill those gaps together. Because one person on their own isn't going to be able to actively engage in that way. So that's really helpful. Yeah, how about you Luke, what would you? Yeah, I think Aaron has absolutely nailed it there. She used the word model. And I think that's exactly it. To answer your question, Ross, I think the church, especially where I am, for a long while, hasn't really modeled that sort of wider mission. But the tide is turning, and it is changing. So the church of Ireland has something now called Pioneer Ministry, which is really taking off in the last two years. And that is seeking to connect the church to people that aren't in church and sort of really go and find them. And that is modeling, I suppose it is mission, but it's modeling church in a way that is very different to the way it's been, especially in the Republic of Ireland for many, many years, to give you an example down in County Waterford, there's a food ministry and they just set up food and people come and chat. And it's really just a way of meeting people and building a community around food, which is exactly what Jesus did. So the church is starting to model those new ways of mission. And my hope is that as young people and young adults see that they will get inspired to go and do their own thing. And I think that's the whole point of Pioneer Ministry. You know, they're starting off with a few things, but they're hoping to inspire and build up so much more from that. So yeah, it comes down to what the church is modeling and that is changing, thankfully. - I off the back of that as well, just to add on, I think like it's bringing the kingdom, like it's bringing heaven here on earth. The kingdom of God here on earth as it is in heaven. And it's not even the sense of adapting the gospel because the gospel stands true and it stands for him. But it's making access, you know, the gospel more accessible, how you bring it to people instead of asking them to come to us on our turf and our terms. And by, I think that's what you were saying on your present look. - Yeah, just thinking a little bit about that. I mean, it does seem, you know, we look to the definition of mission and lots of people have different views on it. And it felt like there was more of a desire for broader understanding of what the kind of church's role is in the world. And, you know, obviously, Russ mentioned at the start, they're working with tear-fund in us. There's a lot of things like climate justice and people's opinions on that and young adults and how they saw that. And, you know, those new models of mission, some of the ones we've mentioned are ones that we see in the Bible. We see Jesus eating with people. We see people, we see Jesus being out in the streets, talking to people. We see all these different things. Are there particular passages or stories or parts of the Bible that are more pertinent for young adults now? I'm always afraid of where we do the kind of swing the pension from one way to the other and we go from one thing to the other rather than go and this broader kind of richer version of what mission is. But are there particular ones in either of your experiences where people are drawn more towards something else than others? Does that make sense? - Yeah, I think you would expect people to say, like, the miracles of Christ. But I think until you really encounter Christ and you grow in your faith, understanding miracles and their purpose and their place in the Bible is kind of difficult. I don't think I've fully grasped that. To an extent, I think it's those stories from the gospel where it's Jesus just meeting people individually. And so you can really say the humanity of Christ. So the woman at the well, it always just comes to mind because it's him meeting someone who was marginalized and seen as different and discriminated against and people didn't want to engage with and yet here's Jesus, both God and man, interacting with the marginalized. So I think that's one story that always sticks out. And I think that is one that really resonates with young people because there's an authenticity to it. And there's a relational aspect to it. And Jesus genuinely just showing his humility and his serventhood and leaving behind. He has no errors and graces, but leaving behind that sense of divinity and all of that and just being a man who cares and loves and is compassionate. And I think that really models what young people want to see from the church. They don't want to see apologetics. They don't really as much as they did in the 90s and 2000s. There's less of a care for that. And there's a less of a care for deep theology as coming to the church. It's just saying how Jesus can truly change and transform life through experiencing it. And to be able to see that, we have to model that. But the women of the well, really powerful story. It's so counter-cultural. And I think that's an important thing that young people want to see today. - Truly helpful, yeah. Thank you. Luke, what about you, if you in school or in your real name? - Yeah, absolutely. I think it's, I only, again, as God had in terms of as the stories of Jesus, the good Samaritan. There's another one that kind of comes up a lot. It's actually in the junior certificate religion. syllabus here in the republic. So every single teenager knows that story, whether or not they've been to a church. And even if they're not Christian, they will understand that it means love your neighbor and love your enemies. So that is a real great starting point to hang on a lot of what the love of Jesus looks like. The cross was all about loving your enemy. That's literally what it was. So that's a great place to begin. I think obviously we saw in the survey, the great commission comes up a lot. That's very well known. Some churches even have it on the front of the church. It's what you see when you go in. And then I suppose the other thing is working with a little bit with young people and just kind of being able to empower them. And I suppose Jeremiah chapter one is very important for that because Jeremiah literally says to God, who am I? I'm so young, I can't possibly be your prophet. And then God is the one that empowers him. So that is, that's helpful too. But I think in terms of capturing the imagination of new young people and young adults and showing them where to go, then it is. It is the the the gospels. It's the miracles as I own a set, but it's also parables like the good to man. - Yeah, it's really helpful. And I think there is one of the quotes at the very end of the section that kind of articulates what you both are saying. It says, if the church is to die, it will be because we never stood up for the people Jesus would have. - Yeah. - Instead, we worry about defending our moral position. Skip the judgment and just love like Jesus. So quite to the point in terms of what you're saying, but those stories sort of capture that emphasis. And what I'm hearing is there's definitely the sense of story, the sense of creativity is much more engaging where young adults are asked rather than, as you say, the traditional apologetics. Maybe it's maybe we just need to lead with the right thing rather than the other way around in terms of our engagement. I'd love to come back to something you mentioned earlier around young adults, that generation are emerging as kind of the leaders of the future. And what are the kind of things that you're seeing that A are important to them around mission? And B, what would be, I suppose, what would help them to be released and to have permission to kind of step into this space even more? And maybe we're speaking to the kind of church leaders who are a little bit older if they're listening to this podcast. What are the things that they need to be aware of if we're gonna see a new wave of leaders engaging in mission? - I think, I mean, I think it's obvious that the hunger and the thirst and the passion that there is among young people. It's so evident, it's crazy. And I've seen it embodying so many different capacities just in worship and just in the numbers, it's mental. I do just think that that shift from that shift from spoken evangelism to the idea of holistic mission unlocks a whole other capacity for young people. And I think this is a generalisation, but I do think my generation are welcoming and want to engage with each other but don't exactly know how. And I think that idea for this to commission, the fact that in Acts, in Acts 17 is like, in him, we live, we move and we have our being, God caring about the whole person, caring about the physical and the emotional and the relational, the passions and the desires that we have and also our living faith, our spiritual, but not putting salvation in the spiritual on the pedestal but actively allowing young people to go into communities and engage with that passionate and that hunger that they have, but on a relational level, I think that changes things. I think if older leaders are able to show that there is a whole new concept of mission than what we've grown up with and what we've been taught, that empowers young people. And I love what you were saying about that empowerment. We're at some really anxious age, young people right now, and under confident age and there's such low self image. And I think that empowerment by the church that we have and the leaders that we really trust and respect, I think having that empowerment from them and that creatively seen from them is so empowering. And just to have them as our advocates as Jesus is, gives that space and that scope and people to just step in to the idea of wider mission, but it's not really a concept, I suppose, right now or widely understood. - Yeah, absolutely. I think empowerment is the big word. My, the example I'm thinking of when it comes to this is a group of young people we have here in Mollongar, I suppose the young adults now, called Light No Darkness, and they came out to the church of Ireland, church here in Mollongar. And basically they had a real passion to do something about climate change. And again, I'm not necessarily sure they thought it was missional to begin with. I think they just had a passion to do something about climate change, but it is missional and what they produced was incredible. So they produced, I suppose it was about an hour long presentation on why Christians should care about climate change. But they also developed something called Guards Gardens of Hope, which was intended to turn church of Ireland, church arts and graveyards and school yards into bio-diverse habitats. And they managed to do that here in Mollongar in a couple of places. And through a resource that the church of Ireland used department produced for them, we've been able to take that nationwide, island-wide over the last year. It's called EcoGen. I'm just going to do a shameless plug for it here. If you want to know more, email me, [email protected]. But the reason that that was so successful is quite simply the empowerment that they got from their rector and the wider church. So the rector in Mollongar at that point was a man called Alistair Graham, who since retired, but he was so warm and so encouraging and so empowering to those young people. He gave them permission and he gave them the skills to do it. You know, that presentation that they delivered, he hired a drama coach to teach them how to produce it. They did a video as well. You know, he hired production equipment and videos and that sort of thing. You know, he was really able to empower them, but on top of that, there was obviously resources and the parish here was very generous with the money as well and the wider church too. But the wider church actually, when they caught wind of it and these people were at a synod, was so encouraging to the point where they were, they got a standing ovation at the general synod of the Church of Island, which never happens, ever. And that sort of encouragement, they told me, has stayed with them and they've been on tour. They've been up to another island. They've been over to Liverpool. So I suppose the reason that was so successful was because of the empowerment that Alistair Graham started, but he went to them and said, "What is it you're passionate about?" And they said climate change and he just ran with it and encouraged them and resourced them and they did it. It was incredible. And my question to the wider churches, can we do that again? What can we do? It doesn't have to be climate change. It could be something else. But can we get a group of young people and can we ask them, what is it you're passionate about? How can we speak the gospel into that? And what resources do you need? 'Cause we have those things. We just give them to the young people and that they're on with it. Yeah, I think that's really-- - That's what I have. Like what do you have in your hand? Like what, you know, it's like, what do you already have that God has already given you that you can use? And I think that's the cool thing about the miracle of feeding the 5,000 is, you know, is the miracle the fact that the 5,000 people were fed in this miraculous scene? Or is it more just the humility and the generosity of the young boy offering up the smallest amount that he had that was used in the supernatural miraculous scene? I think that's also a really cool thing. It's what do you need from us as older leaders, but what do you already have? And that's that sense of empowerment as well, which is really cool. I love that story that you return on their look. That's awesome. They're both really inspiring stories. And I think they encapsulate kind of modeling of what we want to see happen. And we've mentioned, like, redefining mission as the renewal of all things. And that has a really wide breath, doesn't it? So it could be drama in the church, in certain area of Ireland, it could be climate change, it could be various other things. And I think the reimagination of what mission can be combined with empowerment and permission sounds like kind of key ingredients to kind of see a new wave of young people engaging in the holistic mission. And yeah, I love those stories because they really empower that. So I think it's just important to underline that for those people listening, there's huge creativity. And there's a huge space of permission. And as you said, in terms of what's in front of us, what's in our hands, where are the people that need the renewal of all things, including ourselves? So I think that's really helpful. Yeah, no, it's really encouraging. It's great stories. And I think you've articulated it really well. I think sometimes, and as a slightly older person now or getting older person now, I think there's sometimes older generations tend to maybe stand back a little bit from young generations and not really sure how to engage. But I think even Luke, your story there was really helpful in a reactor being really proactive and having that conversation. What would you say to maybe older leaders in terms of how they have those conversations or should they be encouraged to have those conversations with younger generations? And maybe even what would be a good question to start a conversation with people in the church? How can we, as Rossi said, kind of have that broader imagination for what mission is and empower and trust? And I know I was on the receiving end of a lot of trust and empowerment from older generations in my past. And I forget that sometimes. But yeah, what are some of the questions or how do they have those conversations or just encourage people maybe to do that? I think there's no real one way of doing it. As I said, I know with Alistair, he literally sat the group down and said, what are you passionate about? What change do you want to make in the world? But in my own experience, it simply comes out of to use a phrase that comes from youth ministry. It comes from living life with people. You know, I had a youth group back in England and I knew they were mad keen on tech. And so basically we had them run the church sound desk and the PowerPoint stuff. And all of that, they did incredible things during the church service through technology that I wouldn't have the first clue about. So it literally comes from spending time with young people whether or not you have a youth group or a confirmation group or just kind of find a way of bringing them into your church whether or not it's through a church barbecue or something like that. And then saying, what is it you're passionate about? What difference do you want to make? How can you help us as a church? And be prepared for kind of flumex panic glances when you ask those questions, but invest the time. I think that's the thing. Once the young people know this is not just a gimmick. It's not just a, well, we're given five minutes, you know, kind of make us look better. Actually invest the time. And then you just say, what are you passionate about? How can you help us? What do you think I am? - No, I fully agree. I think I can just imagine the panic on people's faces when it's like, what do you mean? I like, I would say, I have to think, what is myself? But when you genuinely give that, and you create that space for young people to think it out to think about the context in which they're in and the need that they've seen, but also just what they're passionate about. It's so powerful. And that those spaces just where young people are given the autonomy and given that position where they can just take hold of something and make it their own, that has so much potential. But I think as well, look, that is the sense of calling potential out of people. I'm just journeying alongside them and letting them step in to what called the God has for them and in that space as well. But it is a sense of just maybe that you're stepping into something you don't actually know that it's mission until you see the fritz of your labor or just you see the impact that it has. Unmishing can happen and be involved over time. So it doesn't have to be an immediate thing, but those spaces for empowerment, those spaces for creativity and those spaces for just like the act as a launch pad for something more very powerful and to present. - I should say as well that I'm very aware that might be people listening to this and thinking, great, that sounds perfect, but I'm terrified of doing that. I've been talking about clergy or whoever in churches. And if that is something that you are aware of, again, guys, I'm going to do a shameless plug. Just contact church about a new department, the Simon Henry in the North or myself in the South and will help. I mean, there's another thing here that a lot of young people are quite spread out. I'm thinking cork dioces have so many young people, but they're in so little places. And that's where diocese can help as well. So there's resources out there. There's people out there that can help just get in touch. If this is something you're interested in doing and you're not quite sure where to go from there. - Yeah, that's helpful. Thank you. I'm sure there's kind of lots of places and resources to have. And it feels like it's worth taking the risk to ask the question. You're better to have asked the question and ask the young people that question, rather than not asking you and feeling that you might sit wrongly or do a bad job of it. It feels like that. I mean, I think the key part of that kind of relationships and a walking alongside. And it's interesting in a few conversations I've had in the last month. That kind of intergenerational stuff seems really important for young adults. That kind of didn't want to necessarily do by themselves. They want to do with others and kind of walk with others, which is encouraging, I think, as older leaders, we need to hear that and understand that we're willing to walk alongside, not be afraid of younger generations. - So yeah, guys, it's been really great conversation. Just as we finish up, I'd like to just ask you both, just to think about one or two things in terms of what do you, what are you excited about for the future of the church in terms of its posture towards mission? What are two things that you would love to see happen? - I think mission, the ministry comes through mission and it comes through relationship, but I think a ministry of just presence, the presence of Christ, obviously, but just being present to the people that you want to invite in. And it nurtures this culture of welcome and belonging and purpose. And that just, you know, developing and nurturing young people's potential. But I think like these things can be find in any sense of community that doesn't have to be church. And so the question that I would love to ask and I have hope that it can be answered is like, what does the church have to offer that's different? How can we, you know, be countercultural? Or should we have Jesus? We have that at whole aspect of it's the main thing and that adds up all different, you know, what apart. But, you know, what do we have to offer that's different 'cause you can find community anywhere. And I've seen even like friends and peers and family maybe step away from the church 'cause they found that better community and better senses of belonging and purpose in, you know, grips that aren't church based. So what do we have that invites them back? What do we have that's different and stands out? And I think that it is that sense of just a community that engages with you in the long term and engages in a relational sense and also just genuinely cares. Like there's a compassion and a care and it's based on Christ. And I think I'm seeing that. I'm really, really seeing just a passion to embody an emulate Christ in that way, just an invitational and welcoming way. So yeah, there's a lot of hope and I've seen it. So it's exciting. - Thanks, I honor. Same to you, Luke. - Yeah, amen to that. I suppose my trick answer to this question is just the Holy Spirit and just changing the country. But if I wanted to, if I had to put more words into it, I suppose I would say exactly why you're in this head in terms of it kind of changing communities and things like that. You know, we saw so many young people become Christians at Summer Madness, our big festival in the summer. That was just incredible. And you know, you talk of the quiet revival and that sort of thing. I'm seeing that. I'm seeing young people coming back into church. They're coming back into church. I suppose the posture of the church just needs to be one of open arms and welcoming. And also, as we said, equipping and being willing to turn around to those young people and say, "Okay, what do you want? "How can you help us? "How can we equip you and how can we get you out there?" And as I mentioned earlier, that is something that Pioneer Ministry is doing at a larger sense across the Church of Ireland. But I think each individual parish needs to have that sort of Pioneer mentality. Where are our young people? Where are the people we're not reaching? How can we do that? How can we reach them? And as I said, the people are there. And the Holy Spirit's there. We just need to keep praying and keep going on in this spirit. - Super. Thank you both Iona and Luke. Your contributions really valuable insights and well worth listening to. And yeah, we know the future of the Church is in good hands. So, really appreciate you both coming on to the podcast today. May you be blessed and equipped and encouraged as you continue at your ministry. Thank you. - You've been listening to Mission Disco, a podcast by Praxis Movement. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Praxis Movement. Subscribe, like or download this podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud or online at PraxisMovement.ie.