Wider Mission - Continuing the Young Adult Survey Discussion

(upbeat music) - This is Mission Disco. - This is Mission Disco. - Conversation about imagination. - Innovation. - And Christian Mission in Ireland and beyond. - Welcome everybody to another episode of Mission Disco. I had to remember what this podcast is called, but I think that's what it's called. So my name's Ross Hill and it's great to be here with my fellow DJ Simon. How are you, Simon? - I'm doing well, Ross, thanks for the entry. Yeah, I think it is Mission Disco. I think that's what it's called. Still haven't changed. - We haven't had any complaints yet. Have we, from all our followers? - People do wonder what it is, but yeah. - Well, we're here again and we're in the middle of a series where we're talking about a young adult survey that we conducted in partnership with Tear Fund and a few other organizations. And it's great to have Anne with us. - Hello. - Hi Anne, how are you today? - I'm doing all right, bit tired, but I'm all right. - That's good. Do you want to introduce yourself? Benziger? - Very good. Yes, my name is Anne Benziger. This is my first time on this podcast and I have only, yeah, I've not really done loads podcast. So, forgive me. But yes, I have lived in-- - Feeling a bit nervous, let's say. - A nervous Ross, yeah. I've been living in Ireland since 2013. So this year marks 12 years, I think. So as a kind of missionary, I came over originally to serve with different organizations since then. Currently, I still work with Praxis. So I was a part of helping make this survey happen. So I have a little background knowledge in this survey and topics. I've always done things around discipleship and pastoral care have always been kind of my grooves and just finished a master's at DCU in chaplaincy and pastoral care, which is crazy to think about. So graduation is coming up. - Congratulations. - Yes, thanks. But yeah, always focused, I think, around mission and understanding that. So excited for today's episode. - It's great to have you on. I'm sorry if you haven't been on before. That's terrible. We should have had you on before now. - Chris, did I talk to you about that? - Yeah, exactly. Who she can play into. You've avoided it for so long. - Yeah. - We're going to be talking about the young officer and maybe get you to explain a little bit in the moment what the survey is and what we'll be looking at today. But it's interesting you use the word missionary that you came as a missionary. Do you still use that word? Do you still think of yourselves as a missionary? Should we all think of ourselves as a missionary? - Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I kind of think as a Christian by default, you're a missionary, but I kind of use air quotes sometimes, which isn't great for podcasts. But yeah, I do sometimes. It depends on who I'm talking to. It helps people maybe in a shocking way to say that because I do feel called by God to Ireland and did and have a story around that and things. But yeah, I think we're all called to share our faith and share the kingdom of God with other people wherever we are. So yeah, I do kind of still use it. - Yeah, maybe just, I know this is kind of in the middle of a series, but maybe just explain again what the survey is, who it was aimed at, et cetera, et cetera. Do you have some interest to it? - Yeah, yeah. So we did the survey in partnership with Vox and Tierfront Ireland, Praxis did. So there was a few of us on the team. It was the summer of 2023, so wherever, whatever year you're listening to this in. So the aim was to kind of get a sense of young adults in the church or outside the church. Understanding a lot of people were not attending church or not coming along or feeling a part of the community of Jesus followers, so wanting to get their take on it. We did, the age bracket was up to 40, which some people laughed about that those were still young adults. But we really found, even that older age of 30, you know, late 30s had a different perspective than late 20s, say. So just wanted to get the kind of Gen Zed and Millennials take on faith and church. So it was an online survey, completely voluntary. Yeah, so did it kind of spread the word as much as we could to get as many people to respond as we could. - It's a shame me and you weren't asked I'm an I thought we would have made that age bracket. - Yeah, we were close, all right. - Maybe the next time. - Yeah, exactly. - They do older people's opinions. - It's worth saying as well that if people are listening to this, you can, I think you can download the survey, can't you? From the Praxis Movement.com website. So. - That is correct. Yeah, there's a free download of it there. Yeah, thanks Ross, yeah. - We also do have hard copies as well. If people would like one, you can get in touch. We can post one next. Good to have. We kind of, I suppose the reasons for these podcasts is we kind of identified maybe four or five broad areas that kind of were highlighted in the podcast, or in the podcast, highlighted in the survey. That kind of seemed to stand out areas that we thought that would be worth doing the podcast and developing a little further. So we've looked at a few of those different ones. But the one particular we wanna look at today is think a little bit about mission and people's understanding of mission and what that is. Others were around creativity and mission and unity and spiritual formation. But this one specifically, we're gonna think a little bit about just people's understanding of mission and how that differs and varies and what that looks like. So maybe, yeah, do you wanna give us just a sense of that and maybe some of the questions that were asked? - Yeah, so there were four specific questions that were asked around the topic of mission. The first one was, "What does the word mission mean to you?" The second was, "How important is mission?" And then there was kind of like essential important unsure or not important as options. And then the third one was, "What does mission look like?" So that was kind of open-ended answer. And then the fourth one was a vision for mission and evangelism in the church. So that kind of gave scope for people to kind of dream of this or kind of say what they'd like to see happen. So those four were the main questions. - Correct. Yeah, if we take the first one just a sense of, I don't know, the word mission for me, not as a young adult, as an older person like, I think it's evolved a lot over time from thinking about it as missions. And I think I was always able to be told that mission was people going to other countries to tell people about Jesus. Maybe because Ireland at that stage was more of a Christian, airquits country and people went to overseas or even mission trips thinking about that. So I think my thinking and understanding of mission has changed over time and as I look at the survey, there's definitely kind of a broad range of that. Did you give us a sense of what that is, what people said? Ideas of it? - Yeah. There was quite a diverse range of responses. A lot of the responses were around sharing or spreading the word or preaching the gospel. There was often this sort of verbal sense of sharing something or spreading the good news. Some people brought up the great commission, which I think is sometimes a good way or a biblical way to see mission, obviously, of kind of go and make disciples as you go. Some was around living out your faith or your belief. So this sort of like living everyday life or mission is a way of life, which was great. I kind of agree with that one. There was a sense of going or being sent as well, like going and telling. Missy O'Day was brought up, which is a whole nother theological ball game there, but that's surprising 13 people brought that up, which is kind of the concept of joining in God's mission to grow as kingdom. So something that we join in with something that God's doing. Some was about reaching out. So outreach and often people obviously outside the church or outside the faith community, sharing God's love. There were some negative connotations as well of kind of being air quotes religious people feeling right and telling the people that they're wrong. There was a good bit of conversation and comments around the negative side as well. Yeah, as they defined it. - Yeah, so there seems to be kind of a good mix of preaching and telling people the good news and the great commission of going to make disciples is definitely an active part of that. And then there was more of that connecting reaching out in the community you're in or seeing, you know, where God's at work in your context and joining in with what God is doing. Were you surprised by any of the answers or kind of the bright debt of the answers on? - No, I don't think so. I mean, I think there's always, as I've learned about mission and doing it and being it and all that and joining in with God and knowing that I bring something to the table as well in terms of sharing faith. I think there is that side of the proactive action stuff that's maybe more social justice related. But then there's also the sort of preach the word side of things. So I don't think anything surprised me. I guess in the COD, like I'm surprised how many people mentioned that because it's quite a theological way of it sharing it. So but yeah, it was glad to not glad to see the negative side but glad to see the reality check. And I do think as one of the young adults, I won't say my age, but I am in that category. I do think there is sometimes the cynicism towards mission in church obviously, which is partly why we wanted to hear from the young adults in our survey. But the sort of reality check of what mission and how that word comes off to not only young adults but people in the church, but also outside the church to not ostracize or to put off, but actually to help us better understand what we actually mean when we use the term mission. Yeah. - Yeah. I thought just it was interesting that in the introduction that said, unlike 2015, there seemed to be a greater emphasis on proclamation, sharing, preaching, rather than more integrated mission practices. I found that surprising 'cause I thought it would have moved the other way. Were you surprised down on that? - Yeah, it was a little bit, yeah. So the 2015 survey for those who don't know was like a millennial survey. I can't believe that was 10 years ago now. But this one was to kind of follow up and see if views had changed. The younger generation is included in the 2023 one. So yeah, I was surprised about that. And I don't know if it's maybe a move towards the more social justice activism side of things that people really are pulling back and saying, "No, we actually do need to share and proclaim and preach as well." 'Cause I know, as we know in the world, there's lots of protests and lots of activism and social media is used to advocate for certain, whether it, I don't know, if it's a product or a campaign, but maybe it's the younger generations, wanting to balance those two things really well of, yes, we need to be serving our communities, but we also need to be sharing about the actual message of Jesus and things. So yeah, I was a little bit surprised by that. - I think sometimes, mission can be seen as, yeah, there's a lot of people who have bad impressions of it. And the churches maybe done a badly in the past. So there's the negativity associated with that as well. I think the misioday that kind of been part of God's mission, I find quite helpful because God's at work in the world in lots of different ways. God's at work in the world in the communities and serving and getting alongside the poor and the marginalized as well as the need to proclaim and tell people about Jesus in good news. And there's something, it's not one or the other. I think it's a much more holistic view of how God is at work in the world. And I think we get an impression of who God is true, his word. We see what Jesus did, how he interacted with people, heal people, spoke with people, walked alongside people. And there is something about that that isn't much more holistic and a better sense of maybe what God wants in the world than God's mission in the world. - So the next question was really how important is mission, which is interesting and sort of gets under the bonnet as such in terms of what people might say, mission is, but then how much of a priority is it in people's lives and people's thinking, what were some of the results that you spotted there in terms of how important mission is? - The number is really high. It's kind of 88% said it's either essential or important in terms of mission being evangelism or reaching out. That's a pretty high number for the group to say that it is and really low on the unsure or not important. But then when it came to the supporting global mission, so there was a kind of generic mission evangelism outreach and then the second part was the supporting global mission that dropped down to more like 80%. So just a bit below. So I think there is a difference obviously of sending and praying for and sending money to overseas missions versus local mission and how we understand that. I've become more and more interested in the global and local. I think as I kind of was in college and in loads of mission groups and things like that, I was thinking about the global world or human trafficking or all the things that were happening in the world. And then when I moved to Ireland to quote be a missionary, I became very localized. I became very wanting to know what was happening in Dublin and the churches around me and the ministries around me and what God was doing here. So I think there is, we need to balance that well of the global and the local. And I think it's a beautiful thing to be a part of a global church and I think us thinking around mission helps us do that. But I think yeah, to hold that well, if that makes sense. The balance of that, yes, it's a big world global church, but also I can be missional when I step out my front door as well. - Yeah, I think you touched on something that's interesting there because there is quite a divergence between how important mission is for local versus supporting global mission and when I was growing up definitely mission for me was defined as supporting overseas missionaries or helping organizations who are in international contexts. And I just wonder how that, you know, in the survey, there's obviously a lot of negative connotations around doing mission two people, forcing beliefs on people, potentially causing unintended consequences, causing more harm, all that sort of stuff. Do you think that's behind the slight decrease in supporting overseas missions or that idea of us and them, nearly as you said? - I think so, yeah, and I think that definitely comes across in some of the comments, and it's like you said, the unethical or just disregard of the local context or, you know, that there's an agenda that isn't healthy and holistic. So, yeah, I definitely think that kind of is why the numbers decrease when we think about global mission. Yeah. - I think, yeah, I don't know, moving on from that into some of the kind of working out of what mission looks like, you know, I know some people who are saying with community, engage with community and social justice are really important, and then they're concerned for the global mission as well. Could you tell us a little bit about kind of what, I think this was kind of probably more of an open-ended question, what does mission look like? What kind of people said to that? 'Cause that helps kind of go, well, if we're saying mission is important, what are you saying is important? - Yeah, I think a lot of the comments were I was struck by was the relational side of the comments, like it talked a lot about people, obviously, but it talked about like loving people, even there was a good few responses about conversation. So the simplicity of talking about our faith was someone in work or in our neighborhood or on the street and the intentionality of relationships that we have, I think I was surprised by that, and like I agree with it, or kind of found it a lovely surprise. But then there's the bigger things around mission trips and missionaries, or just the engaging with local community. And one comment even said, painting a neighbor's fence, so that the practical side of really loving on someone or helping are some of those. Obviously, and refugees come up feeding the hungry, serving the poor, that's in the comments as well. - Yeah, that's helpful. I always come back to Scott that Knife has written a lot of good stuff on definition of mission and just that sometimes the tension we can fall into between the proclamation and then the social justice and people kind of either are in two camps, but he says it this way, he said, "Mission is the participation of God's people in God's redemptive work to heal, restore, and reconcile all things under the reign of Jesus." This includes spiritual formation, kingdom embodiment, and communal transformation. And I like that because it's not just proclaiming that's important to people need to hear, but all of that is embodied in the healing, restoring, reconciliation, it's the announcement that God's kingdom has arrived, and there is transformation that's possible in that. And so it is interesting just to kind of have that as a frame, as we look at the results of what does mission look like for people. And I think there's a wide diverse views there. But I just wonder, is there a link between people's imagination of what mission is versus them actually embodying it? If they had a fuller, more holistic view of what God's mission is and His kingdom coming, would there be more engagement? Or suppose I'm trying to get at the obstacles for young people engaging more in mission? What would you think that would be? - I think as we talk about this and so many other topics in terms of church too, we often forget about spiritual gifts or forget about personalities and how people are wired and there are role in the kingdom. I think I always thought you had to be evangelist to be a missionary, but that's not really true. There's like you're saying there's much more of a holistic sense of what God's mission looks like. So an artist trying to redeem and bring redemption stories through their art is part of God's mission. And they may never say the word evangelist that I would not call myself an evangelist. So I think too, we kind of like make it too narrow of who's a part of that because if you're not preaching on the street corner or if you're not really good at having conversations with complete strangers about your faith, then you're not a missionary, you're not part of God's mission. So I know that kind of brings it way out of another topic, but I do think there's a limitation of how the church equips us as a body because of that overlap. And really helping people understand that they are already a part of God's mission where God has called them in their ordinary lives with their skills that may seem not quote religious or spiritual, but actually how God can use each and every one of us in that makes sense. So I think that-- - I think I even go back to the way you introduce yourself and the way you clarify what it means to be a missionary and all of God's church and all of God's people are called to be missionaries. Whatever that word and the discontentations that so people don't always get that. And even to your quote there, the Scott McNeighe quote that you used, Ross, that kind of fuller picture of what mission is, is really helpful. But then the question comes, is it, do we all-- should we all have that balance between proclamation and telling people about Jesus? And I suppose I'm painted two extremes, which maybe there isn't, to the social justice, should each person have that balance or actually should it be the local church having a balance between some of those things and being able to demonstrate the fuller, broader spectrum of what God's mission is? You know, is it-- is it up to individuals? Is it the church demonstrating that? I'm not sure. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I think for me, it's becoming less of something I do to people or I try and there's this less of awesome them. And more about if we have a definition of the mission of God coming to us in its full breadth of reconciling, transformative healing, I actually need the mission of God in my life, as well as everybody else. If that definition of what Scott McNight is talking about, it's how are we becoming truly human in the way that he created us to be? And in a sense, we all need that. And so there is much of a kind of more solidarity sort of together on this. And obviously, different people are on different stages to this, but I think that kind of nearly reduces the pressure a little bit. And I think to get to your question, Simon, I do think that different people will have unique giftings and different churches and communities will have different focuses in this whole broader topic of what does it look like for heaven to come to earth and for things to be restored. I think that has to include all the things that we've talked about, whether it's reconciliation communities being restored, justice coming, as well as people hearing the good news and being caught up in that space. Yeah, one of the survey comments says, "Call out the good in your church and empower individuals and groups to go and make disciples, to go and feed the poor, to clothe the poor." So I do think we can't be all things to all people ever, you know, of an individual and church. I do think that's the beauty of being the body of Christ globally that we're not, I can't do everything. My church can't do everything. But we're part of something bigger, which I think then frees us up and opens us up. And there is another comment here around, which is a whole, another thing of this sort of like this defending morality and defending and feeling attacked. So there's that side, which we haven't even, which we don't need to maybe go into. But there is that side of what mission is or sharing the gospel of that the church becomes then on the defensive rather than just serving and equipping and empowering ourselves to go and love others as Christ loves us, you know. So I think there is that side as well to not just close up and get defensive, it become a morality call or whatever. So that piece of it too, but actually staying open and loving and serving and proclaiming and preaching. Yeah, I think that there's something about not just to individual churches to reflect all of who God is, but actually it is the church in Ireland or the church in the world to reflect that. And there is something powerful about that and something that we need one another and that we need. And unity is one of the topics that came up, just having that this church is good at this and does that really well, this church does this really well. And actually it's a broader picture. We'd love the world to see the church as shown something of who God is and what God's kingdom looks like. Just one of the last parts I was around kind of, and it comes up a few times to serving, not just in this section, but there's a real kind of heartfelt plea or a real kind of desire to see the church, be different on lots of different topics, but there is that last section around kind of a vision for mission for the church. And there's some really interesting things that people say that they'd long to see the church be. - Is there anything particular there you'd like to share or bring out? Obviously people can read them themselves. But I mean, I think kind of the maybe what we just touched on the lifting your head and remembering that other churches are there too and we're all on the same team and not feeling a sense of comparison. But also I think it says there to like kind of the Christian bubbles of things as well. I think that is the opposite of being missional, is that feeling of a click or Christian bubble or actually I don't have any friends that aren't Christian that don't go to my church. You know, let's get away from that, I guess maybe, and think more broadly about that. I mean, I think there's big scope that the church and are and then can do in terms of mission. I think it is probably equipping the saints a bit better and thinking of it like that. I think, yeah, I've always, because I am in ministry and paid to do ministry, I always find that hard because then I'm like, well, I should just quit because I'm part of the problem because we keep paying people to do, be in roles of ministry and be quote, missionaries and funded to go somewhere else or be sent. But I do think there is something around seeing ourselves as the beloved of God and living out of that space wherever that is. So whether that's in a cycle group or a neighborhood picnic or at your workplace. So I do think maybe the church should get better at that or could definitely be better at that. And if that could happen on your Sunday morning prayer time for taking time to pray for the people around you and their workplaces, 'cause often we don't even know what those workplaces are like for those people or where they work or what they do. So how can we do that a bit better to help people see it in a broader stroke that I'm a missionary as much as the person that's been sent to Southeast Asia, and can't say that they're there like that or something. So yeah, that would be my hope. - For church leaders or people who are in some sort of oversight role listening to this, and do you think the churches are doing enough to equip young people for mission in the daily lives? And what would be maybe one or two things they could think about? - I mean, I don't want to be negative Nancy, but I mean, I think we can always do better at this and throughout centuries the church could do better than I'd better than they are in the sense. But I do think young people and I'm the older young person, right, and I've worked with teenagers enough to know there's a lot of energy, there's a lot of passion. And so I think how to harness that? Think about that in a real way in your context. How do you harness that for the gospel and mission? And how do you help, I think working with praxis and re-imagining mission with ordinary people? I think how do you help young people have a mindset that is this open and broad about mission and how Jesus is at work in their life and that is part of the kingdom and they get to be part of the kingdom coming where they're at. So I think the mindset thing, the mind and the heart and the practicality and sitting with young people. I do think there is something around spiritual gifts where our how we're wired that can be harness for the kingdom that isn't as much. And I think a young person would like that. I remember doing all those personality tests with a group of friends, I'm the shark or I'm the owl or I'm the color blue or whatever. I think all those things help us better understand who we are and how God's gifted us. Not to box people in, but to release them maybe to say, look, actually, I'm really good. There's like once on a spiritual gift test, I got a hospitality and I was like, well, I don't want to just make tea, but actually what I saw the definition, that it's creating a space where people feel safe and known. I was like, yes, I'm on for that. So just even knowing that in myself and using that and raising my hand when I'm at, you know, hospitality's needed and knowing the purpose of that and the call on that in my life to use that missionally, but also for the church and those around me for my friends and neighbors and family. I think that is maybe a way that could help, especially with younger people, so yeah. Yeah, and I think that's, I think you touched on a few really important things there. And I think as we kind of finish this episode, it reminds me when we were interviewing some guys around leadership in the church and how maybe the older generation need to empower, release and listen more to that younger generation and really listen means allowing them figure this stuff out for themselves. And I think there's a similar posture when we think about mission, 'cause as you said, and there's a lot of energy, there's a lot of good intentions and as young adults are coming to faith, there's a desire to share that. And maybe in our generation, particularly in the Republic of Ireland, there's less baggage from previous generations and there is a willingness to go. So, I think the challenge for us involved in leadership oversight is to help them kind of carve out what they see as mission for their generation and for how they're going to communicate and demonstrate in the body the good news of the kingdom coming there. So, and I do think as we, as we trust that process and as we allow them to, to pray and embody the presence of God in their context of schools, of colleges, there could be some really, really great stuff begin to happen and that is our hope, our prayer and what we're long to see. So, I think that's a good place to kind of finish that off. - Yeah, I'm back to you. - Yeah, I think it's been a really good conversation. Thank you, Alan, for joining us and bringing out some of those statistics and some of the comments. We have a follow-up one about what this means, but if people would like to download us, you can find on the website and we give you a hard copy as well. It's really interesting reading. We're really appreciate it and yeah, it's exciting to think about and the great thing is that God's in control and God is building his kingdom and we are invited as individuals and communities and churches to join in on that. So, appreciate you illuminating some of those things for us, and thank you for your time and look forward to seeing you at work. You know what I'm saying? Thanks. - And you'll be back, Anne. Definitely, this is not your last one. - Yeah. - Thank you. - Thanks, guys. - Thanks. - You've been listening to Mission Disco, a podcast by Praxis Movement. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Praxis Movement. Subscribe, like or download this podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud or online at PraxisMovement.ie.