Why Your Meta Campaigns Are Stuck Targeting the Same People

The reason a new influencer unlocks a new audience is the same way that launching a new language unlocks an audience. We're never going to reach Italian speakers unless we put those ads out in the world. Our entire jobs are trying to figure out how do you get it to continue spending dollars in Germany. You got to equip meta with better creative, better offers, new products. I think we could launch Italian ads, panoshads, French ads, and almost instantaneously drop CPA because these audiences have never been tapped into. What are the top three things you're doing to impact net new reach? We're back with episode 107 of the Marketing Operators podcast. I'm an LA, recorded from the office today. Conor's coming through. Have you seen the office yet, Conor? I haven't. No, this would be my first time at the Hexclad. The Hexclad digs. Nice. Yeah, well, we got plenty of room for you. So you can post up wherever you want. Excited for you to come in and see the space. You know, for a split second, I was like feeling inspired by open residency. I'm like, maybe I'll do a little in person, like in the same room podcaster. I'm sitting at a big long table right now. I was like, this could work, but yeah, I don't think we're ready for that yet. You know what's funny on that is like we had our bridge retreat recently. So we did a little bit more working IRL in person. And it's just funny how the system's just breakdown. I'm like, we're like having substantive good conversations and meetings. I'm like, dude, I don't have my AI note taker running right now. Like we don't have Gemini transcribing this conversation. So we couldn't possibly do in IRL podcast. It would take us just the technical difficulties would be insurmountable. Yeah, I mean, even at even I met it last year, I mean, we had a whole, we had a whole like hour, hour and a half run through and like figuring, there's a whole team trying to get that set up going for us totally. So we, well, Cody's got a board meeting today. Good luck to Cody with that. Let's get into it. We're doing a bunch more hotline questions today. So it'll be fun to run through some of these. We have a bunch that are related to one another talking about how to reach new people, which is something that comes up a lot on the show that we got some other one offs that are also very interesting. Before we do that, thank you to the sponsors motion after saw how is pressure and rich panel. The motion just dropped their 2026 creative benchmarks report and it's been getting shared everywhere. Slack channels, LinkedIn, Twitter, sharing it in our private group chats. And it's great because everybody's been asking the same four questions forever. What is normal? How many ads should we actually be shipping? What is a healthy hit rate and which formats really win? The report analyzes over 575,000 creatives from 6000 advertisers and over a billion dollars in ad spend to answer these exact questions. And the report has some really interesting findings. The fact that only 4 to 8% of ads actually become liners and over half of ads actually lose. And for motion customers, this report is especially helpful. You can upload it into your motion dashboard with a run-eth AI chat and compare it directly against your vertical benchmarks. Hit the link in the show notes. I promise you won't regret it. And as always, go to motionapp.com until the marketing operator sent you. And I guess before we get into the first question, like how about Zack Stuck right now on an absolute tear, sold homestead like three weeks ago maybe. And now yesterday just announced a $27.5 million round raised by Elcaterton. Damn, that guy is just ripping right now. And in addition to that, not to be overlooked, but hired a GM at Hollow a couple months ago. So Zack is just operating, firing on all cylinders, operating on all fronts. You've got the Elcaterton raised for Marsmen of $27.5 million massive raise. You've got selling the agency that he started. And then Hollow is doing, I don't know what the run rate is, but I know it's crushing. And I know he's also hiring the leadership that he needs to kind of remove himself from that and then go raise and focus on Marsmen, which is a massive opportunity. So happy to have a member of the friend of the pod winning. Yeah, he's crushing right now. He also just hired a Hexclad's former director of retention, not from Hexclad, but Andrew Windows here for like, I don't know, a couple of years. Once somewhere else and he just went on to Marsmen to be there, director of retention. So yeah, they're building a powerhouse team over there. What you said they hired the someone that was at Nike? Nike strength. What role did they hire that person in? Like general manager, like a big, big, big strategic leadership role for Hollow. Okay, very cool. Well, yeah, it's been, it's been fun. Obviously, that's, that's where I kind of got my, my start in Ecom. So it's been fun to kind of see where his axe taken it over the last, you know, four years. He's crushing that. I was thinking about you in that, in that, on that like line of thinking as well, because it's just funny. He's actually just hanging out in Wisconsin, like driving his boat around on the lake and then just absolutely operating at the top of Ecom. You guys got quite a stronghold out there of Wisconsin peeps. Dude, it's crazy. So I didn't know Zach at all in high school. Like I, I got into internet marketing in college just because I was interested in it and kind of self-taught myself. So I was doing that for like three, four years maybe, like in college and throughout. And then I was just like posting stuff on LinkedIn about it. And then at the time, Zach's partner, they were hiring media buyers. There was like five or six employees at home, that was like Zach, Riley, Tim, Ryan Doney, who's like their, their dev and then the partner. So there's like five people there to say, hey, we're hiring media buyers. And I went and visited him at the office and like right away I knew I'm like, oh, this is what I wanted to be doing. And it was just random, like because Zach's, you know, three years older than me maybe and went to a different high school. So didn't know him. And luckily I went back to my hometown after college because I don't think I would have gotten connected with him if I didn't. And yeah, just. And it's just become a hot bed for econ marketers. Dude, it's crazy. It's crazy. Yeah. And you're totally right. It is hilarious. Like Zach is operating at the top of his game just in an Appleton, Wisconsin. Like there is like no one else in Appleton or probably even like the greater Fox cities, which is like the, you know, the five or six cities that make up that person at Wisconsin. That even like do the same work is Zach let alone operate at the level that him and Riley are operating. Well, Riley is not in Appleton, but it's just funny that he's there and he's like operating at this level. And it's just, it's just an interesting place to be to be doing what he's doing totally. All right, let's get into it. So we got a bunch more questions from the Mops hotline today. So I want to start off with, I thought this was a very interesting question because we talk a lot about reaching new audiences and how to do that. And as you scale, it becomes harder and harder to do. You know, you see your frequency and meta go up. You see your reach stagnant. You see your rolling reach stagnant or go down. And there's all these different levers you can pull that we've talked a lot about. But I thought this was an interesting question because it kind of breaks down three different levers. There is creative landing pages and signal strategy. And the question is which one has the bigger impact on reaching new audiences. And then I added in this constraint. Let's say it's the same channel. I mean, let's start with the same channel purchase conversion campaigns. And then we can move and kind of remove that constraint. But like if you were to think about those three levers with that constraint, like what do you feel like has the best impact on reaching new audiences? I mean, I think that the answer here is creative diversities, probably the most impactful. It probably requires close to the most legwork to actually get up and running. So there's almost like a time to launch component of this. If I was concerned about reaching new people and I had to do so today, creative diversities going to take me a couple of days, a couple of weeks probably. If I need to be engaging with new creators or influencers or designing new content. But that's probably far and away. I think the most effective. That's where I land on it. Signal strategy. With the constraint, let me ask you this, with the constraint of it having to be a purchase optimized campaign, what does signal strategy look like? Yeah. I think signal, I think with the constraint in theory, like this is one of those ones in theory. It like makes sense. But I don't think it always actually like pans out and drives a new audience or a good performance because in theory, people will be like, oh, make a look like audience of like just your top 10% LTV customer or targeting. Yeah, targeting. Now, there's targeting and then there's exclusions. And I think we're all trying to max out. We haven't had this because we're not a repeat business like Cody. We get good repeat business. But it's not to that extent. We haven't had the same problems that Cody's had on only acquiring new customers with meta. We haven't had to do a lot of the exclusion, jockeying, that a lot of brands I think are doing. These days where they're uploading, they're doing their pixel exclusions and their clavio exclusions and they're also uploading shop of file lists. And I know there's all sorts of like, I think blot out and some of those kind of like matching tools now are also helpful for exclusions. It seems like we luckily haven't had to do a lot of that. And we also don't do a ton of like audience signal engineering, honestly. Like I agree with you. I think creative is the biggest lever. Lanny pages isn't really a lever in reaching new audiences. I mean, you're not going to, you reach new audiences by putting new things outbound. Like you're not going to track that audience unless you go outbound and like meet them where they are. And like obviously you're not doing that with a Lanny page. You might be able to convert that audience better. then maybe if you convert that audio. it's better, you're gonna get more favorable CPMs in the auction and it can go back to the ad and help you there. But we're not doing a ton of signal jockeying on exclusions that I think some brands probably do. And I think it seems like it's mainly brands driving big LTV. Like I bet Grooons has to do a lot of this. I'd be curious what Connor and Derek over there are doing. - Marketing operators, I wanna challenge how you think about post-purchase. Most brands treat it like a feature or an afterthought they don't even think about it. They think about it as an app, quick upsell toggle. But if you zoom out, post-purchase isn't a tactic. It's a system. It's here, cart, your checkout logic, your one-click upsells, how you increase AOV, revenue procession, profit procession. It's your confirmation page. It's all of that system together. The entire flow determines how much incremental revenue that you can make for order. That's why rocked aftersell isn't just an upsell tool. It's a design system for the full post-purchase experience from cart to thank you page. 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'Cause what we do is we, we have like a mix of like custom conditional pixels that just fire on certain categories. So we fire travel purchases over here, wallet purchases, ring purchases, things like that. I've talked about it at length on this podcast. Sometimes we're just doing custom conversion. So we're like filtering down a subset of our like main non conditional pixel and we optimize for that. People do some mix of the two. I'm not directionally, I don't have a super strong opinion about how people do it. What I do care about though is being more specific with a meta with the type of event that you want to optimize for. Meta will say, and I like keep coming around to like disagreeing with this, like just consolidate. Some people will say, throw all, you know, if you have all these different product categories, throw them all in one campaign, tell us to optimize for value, just use the same pixel across the whole thing and like let meta do the job from there. And I just keep coming back to like that not being as optimal as it could be. And the data point that I have recently is, we've had a couple rough weeks of travel growth. So selling our carry-ons and check-ins year over year. So we were diving into some of the reasons why that might be the case. And one of them was we've moved back to a non conditional pixel. We were allowing our travel ads to convert on whatever purchase it wanted to. Last year at this time of all of the revenue attributed to travel ads, 6% of it came from non travel products. Does that make sense? - Mm-hmm. - So we like went through the North Beam, I forget what it's called, but like the product dashboard, where you can see what were the products that were purchased in the orders attributed to our travel ads. - So you're saying 6% of, 6% of travel revenue came from ads that were not promoting travel. Is that how do you read that? - Um, okay, so if we spend a dollar on travel ads and generate $2 in revenue, that $2 is attributed to meta and it's attributed in the meta ads platform and in North Beam. And then what we did was we analyzed well of those $2 like what products did people actually buy. And 6% of it came from non travel products. It was attributable to travel ads, but it didn't drive travel revenue. Um, that was last year, 6%, which is fine. Like it's very little, what we see all the time is naturally is very little cross category buying. What we saw this year was 40% of revenue in this period that we were looking as relatively short period. In this period, 40% of revenue attributed to travel ads came from non travel products, which the point of that is just, we'd moved away from telling meta, hey, we specifically want these luggage orders and we'll instead allow you to attribute whatever conversions you want. And what ends up happening is meta finds warm traffic of people ready to convert on wallets and rings and power banks and whatever else and they are no longer driving sales in the products that we want to be selling when we run these travel ads. And it's one of the reasons travel as a category was having this rough couple of weeks. So just to the point of signal engineering and the reason I said it's not on the perfect track of reaching net new people is I don't quite know whether we're reaching net new people or not. What I care about is are we driving growth in our travel business? And signal engineering, I just, I keep coming around to the conclusion that it's one of the best things that we can do. So I just, I grouped those in there because obviously, you know, created diversity important, but then also telling meta what you want it to do. I think there's, there continues to be a lot of alpha in that. So, so I, to summarize and make sure I'm clear on this. So there's, you have these custom purchase events set up outside of just like this blanket purchase event, which fires on every single purchase that happened. You also have a custom event set up for travel, for rings, for walls, and we do that too. Like we have, we have those set up for the same reason 'cause I want to be able to go and say, hey, what percent of my knives orders on knives ads are actually coming on knives? So what we find is that the further, like it would make sense to me that you guys, like that when you're optimizing for a travel purchase event that you're seeing, like 94% of the orders actually come on travel, 'cause your categories are like fairly distinct. Whereas us, there are a lot more related, right? Like it doesn't shock me that when I go look at our knives ads, like over 50% of the orders coming on those ads are on knives, but again, there's like 50, 40% happening on other products. That makes sense, like it's cookware, but as we get more into our niche products, you see the percent of people actually buying that product, go higher and higher and higher. So like hex mills, for example, which is very different than a lot of our other products we have funnels built around, like I think 80, 85% of the orders happening on those ads are on hex mills, cocktail shakers, that other Walmart, it's like very unique, very distinct, very different. Again, 80, 85% of the orders happening on that product. So I think like product itself can be, like yes, the signal engineering, but also just like the product funnels are such a great way to reach new audience. Like you proved this with the old outtests that you ran, but we do not actually optimize like for those events. We are still optimizing for the overall blanket purchase conversion event. We still are, I'd say leveraging product signal engineering in the sense that we don't break them out. Like we don't have knives and mills and cookware are usually like blended all under the same ad set, because if you look at the stats between the ad sets, like they're very different acquisition costs, they're very different AOVs, the product makeups are very different. So we think there's value and to keep in them separate, which is a form of signal engineering. But we haven't actually done the, like hey, let's go optimize for the knives purchase conversion event, 'cause like our performance has been good without doing that. But I'm not kind of wanna go do it, 'cause you're saying that it's actually driving a lot more orders on that product category. Is that what you're saying? - Yeah, and you bring up a really good point that our categories are so distinct, I think it makes sense to do it. - One thing, I had a conversation with a marketer at a home goods brand, and she was saying that what they really find, what they consistently find over and over is that they're customer shop by rooms, that like they know if they're in market for, and I'm in the funnel for like Wayfair and West Elm right now, I'm getting patio furniture. And it's like they know, Connor is shopping stuff to go outside, and they just keep hitting me with emails and things like that. And that makes sense. I'm like building it out, that's clearly like what I'm thinking about from like a home decor perspective. For you guys, it's like the kitchen. All the products are people shopping kitchen items. So you're gonna see naturally a lot of crossover. Our version of that is we see so much crossover between Powerbank and Phone Case purchases. It would be silly for us to try to signal engineer our way to acquiring those customers separately. We just think about that as like tech revenue and a tech order. We don't see all that much, we see slightly more, but really not all that much crossover between something like tech products and our wallet products. But that's just an example, 'cause people also misinterpret that sometimes, and they say, oh, I've got, I've got to break out T-shirts from sweatshirts. I need a bunch of different pixels. I need to be doing all these different things. And it's like, that's not quite right. It's something to be careful with, but I continue to find signal strategy as a way to reach new audiences. And I thought that this product example in terms of driving the product revenue we intended to was a good idea. I didn't think for the people listening, they're like, "Oh, man, I don't know how to go set up custom events," and this and that. First off, it's actually not that complicated. You configure it out, but also just start with separating the amount like the campaign asset level. That right there is going to give different signal between your different product funnels, and it's going to start optimizing for new audiences. I think you'll be able to see it in the data. We can clearly see that the person that's buying the cocktail shaker and the hexamil is very different than the person buying the 12-B set or the knives in their first time order. We've also really, really changed how we are thinking about this. We're building out funnels now for products that a year or two ago, I don't think we would have. We just launched these Japanese inspired products. Based on some of the data we saw with our cocktail shaker and our hexamil, we're actually building out acquisition funnels around these. Historically, we probably wouldn't have because I don't see them being massive. I don't see them moving into our top 10 or top five first time ordered products. First off, the launch has gone really well. I think that if we activate with the right creators and we present these products in the right way, I think we'll reach new audiences. We're working with a bunch of Japanese American creators that are going to be making very different meals and speaking about the products and what they care about very differently. I'm bullish that we're going to reach new audiences that way, whether they're buying the Japanese products or not. I'm curious to see that. We also see very different things between platforms. If you look at our cocktail shaker, it's driving a lot of first time orders on the cocktail shaker and it's a high net new visitor rate. We're pretty confident it's driving an incremental audience. We wouldn't be getting otherwise. If you go look at our still-gin Gordon TVC, the one that we produce with Dre Gordon and Snoop Dogg that's running in CTV and YouTube and linear TV. If you go look at the CTV breakdown, that ad has almost the same exact acquisition cost and the same exact AOV as all of our other ads, which are primarily pushing cookware. It's interesting to see that in Meta, Meta is a lot better at going and actually finding people to buy the product we're promoting. In CTV, it's just the creative, so compelling that people are seeing it, visiting the website and they're going and building carts that are very similar to the carts that people are building after they see whatever other CTV ads we're serving that are promoting cookware. It's also curious to know that in Meta, maybe Meta is better at going and finding the person to buy that product. Maybe it's also a function of the creative. It's a lot more DR product focused in Meta, but also just interesting to see the difference between these upper funnel channels and in Meta, which is obviously really good at going and finding the right people. I totally agree. So, to round out this first question we've got here, I think we're in agreement. Creative diversity number one, a little bit more legwork involved, signal engineering number two, I think we listed a few ways to get at that. I'd also put landing pages at a distant third. The idea that you'd have landing page diversity without creative diversity also seems odd. It just seems like you would of course invest in creative diversity before landing pages. I am generally skeptical about landing pages, influence on something like Net New Reach. I have heard from people who I very much trust that having a mix, and this just comes down to the funnel, I think, a little bit. If you have listicles, if you've got advertorials, if you've got PDPs and collections pages, in the mix that Meta will perform better, which kind of tracks for me, but it does fall into that bucket of feeling hard to measure, hard to prove, and maybe more just anecdotal than a true best practice. Yeah. I mean, if you think about just logically, we're thinking a lot about this at the EU right now, because what we're noticing in the EU is that year over year, shifting spend into some more niche countries. If you look at the year on year changes in the countries that are shifting spend away from acquisition costs are up. So my conclusion is Meta has gone and acquired. All the people could acquire out of certs PA because it's having to spend more now. It's shifting spend into these other countries that don't have that much upside, but Meta's trying to go and find work we go and get that CPA that's as low as it was last year. I think new languages are a very good way to think about this, and it really applies to creative too. We're never going to reach Italian speakers. We're never going to reach Spanish speakers, French speakers, insert any language, unless we put those ads out in the world. We're never going to attract that person. So it's no different than creative. If you want to reach a new audience of people, go and develop creative or go and work with a creator that speaks to that person. It's as simple as that. Unless you do that, you're never going to reach that person. Yeah, so I have a quick question for you. I'm just going to throw in some placeholder countries here. Let's say Germany's probably your biggest market. Let's say it's shifting spend away from Germany into the Netherlands. CPA in Germany's up, you're saying even though spend has been shifted away from there, is the CPA in the Netherlands technically lower than Germany right now? Yeah. That's such an interesting example because that's Meta really doing its job. It's like you've given it a certain set of things to do. This is a product I want to sell. Here's a creative. Here's the offer. You go do that in whatever. We use Germany as the example, but for a rich, it might be 40-year-old men where it's like, okay, this is where I'm going to get the best CPA. This is where I'm going to spend all the money. As I exhaust that audience, I'm going to go try to find new audiences. For you guys, it's shifting budget into Netherlands. For a rich, it might be, oh, it's actually going to try to serve younger. It's going to try to serve more female and NetNet or CPA is going up year over year, even though that marginal customer it's acquiring is technically more efficient than it would otherwise get in that original core audience. Yeah, our entire jobs are trying to figure out how do you get it to continue spending dollars in Germany? You got to equip Meta or whoever else with just better creative, better offers, new products, etc. The whole EU is very tricky. If you've expanded into the European Union before, you'll understand this because we have certain PNLs for different markets. At the same time, you want to give it's generally better to give Meta more flexibility. Generally, if your audience is, this is the classic example, if your audience is primarily 25 to 35-year-old males, you generally don't want to go into Meta and set the assets to that constraint because it's hamstring in it. You want to set it to 18 plus and let it serve ads to whoever you want. It's not that different. When we're trying to scale the EU, you want to leave it broad and let Meta decide where to push. Then you see things like this where it's like, "Oh, no, we have a PNL. We have a revenue target that we need to hit in Germany." We also need to force some extent into there. There's the nuance that you can select targeting based on language, but you can also select targeting based on country. We found both to work. Obviously, if you're saying, "Hey, only target German language." There's five countries in the dock that speak German. Of course, you're going to see Germany be a big makeup of that. All these other countries are also going to get a good amount of spend if that's the way that you're setting it up. It's a tricky balance to serve the business PNL that you've said and also try not to hamstring the way that Meta works best in order to hit that. We're trying to find that balance right now. For us, there's a lot of talk about, "Well, how can we do this?" That's all in the context of English ads. I think it's a wasted effort for us to try and scrape out a 10% efficiency improvement, whereas I think we could launch Italian ads, panashads, French ads, and almost instantaneously drop CPA because these audiences have never been tapped into. I think there's tons and tons of people that we can acquire at low CPAs again. Now, granted, that's a lot of work to transit all the funnels. That's why we can't just do it Italy Week 1, French Week 2. It's hard to do, but that's what we're learning is like, we just have to stack these localized funnels on top of each other. Again, goes back to the initial question. Our creative in Italian is going to reach native Italian speakers, whereas right now we're only reaching Italians that resonate with English ads. Obviously, that's probably not the primary audience that we ultimately need to tap into if we're going to go and take over that market. Yeah, totally. We talk about incrementality a lot, but how do you actually operationalize it to make your business better? That is one thing that I've been really leaning in with my team recently, and how does play to tremendous role? We use it for all of our experiments, all of our geolift testing, but we now use it for our MMM as well. I've been a design partner. I've been one of the early design partners on how to see MMM. See stands for causal. So it's one of the only MMMs. If not the only MMM that I've seen that's actually using your causal experiments to build the model. And so that allows me to just trust the data so much more. So it's not a black box, but actually informs our roadmap and has been so crucial for allowing us to operationalize around ink from mentality. The house team is world class. I can't speak highly enough about them. They've also built a really amazing community with some of the best D to C growth operators out there. If a few exciting events coming up soon that they call the house growth lab, one is an LA and May 19th, and the other is in New York on May 21st. I highly recommend checking it out if you're in the area. If you want to check it out, learn a little bit more about CMM. Go to house.io/operators to start making better data driven decisions today. So we've got like a 2B question here. What are the top three things? you're doing to impact net new reach. We've hit a lot of them. You want to talk about non-purchase conversion campaigns? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, yes. I think for us, like, creators has been one of our biggest unlocks there. We, creators in product, right? We're promoting new product. We just talked about that. We're activating with more creators that are spanning outside of your traditional cooking creator. One of our biggest unlocks last year, we signed this creator for $100,000 as a nine-month deal. I think she's like lifestyle, females, she's a little bit older, and totally different demographic of people that were engaging with that ad creative compared to our account wide. I just think that's the way to do it. I think so many brands get siloed into their core persona, but they don't expand into creators outside of that. There's this honey brand that I'm close with, and it's really premium, high-end, honey. It's really good, high-priced point, and they're really hitting on the biohacker angle, and they've done it really well. They have all these different creators that they whitelist from, that they've scaled really well about our health wellness biohacking space, but they're talking about channel expansion and asking questions. I'm like, "Yes, I think you should do that," but you guys sell honey. Parents want to feed this to their kids. The average person wants to eat this in the morning with their coffee. You guys are nailing the biohacker, health and wellness, extreme audience, but there's so many other personas that I think your product is really, really relevant for that. They're just probably not hitting because you don't have any creators that speak to that persona. I still think generally brands are not leaning horizontally enough into more creator niches and reaching new people. We did a deal with the Puckets, Campbell and Pookie Pucket, which are this cringe lifestyle, fashion, a couple on Instagram. That's the type of people that we're going in activating now because they have a lot of our audience and we want to tap into them. I think more brands need to be doing that. Then for us, we have really leaned heavy into non-purchase conversion campaigns in the last two years. We spent, can't speak to the exact number, but low to mid-seven figures of our meta-span last year was on non-purchase conversion campaigns and we're trying to test into and unlock even more of these objectives. For us, we tested view content first because I think you had had success with that and I had talked to some other brands that had success with that and it also isn't intuitive. I think when you're thinking about non-purchase conversions to optimize for, where do you start? You want to make sure it's far enough away from the purchase event that it is different, but also I wouldn't go right to reach because that's pretty far away from your ultimate goal of getting an order. If you content, what actually is if you content, page view fires on any page, view content to product page view, or at least that's how we have our pixel set up. It's kind of intuitive that that would work because you're still optimizing for someone to hit your product page, which is a pretty high intent action. We started there, we tested it with a household out test and now we have that multiplier and we basically scale up or down based on that multiplier, which is a North Beam one day click row as number. Now we're testing reach, we're testing video views, I believe. So we're moving further up funnel and just trying to unlock more and more of these and it's very clear that these non-perchance conversion campaigns have a much better CPM, they have a much better rolling reach, so they're reaching more new accounts. So I think that is a really awesome one for brands to try. It's just really hard to validate unless you have a tool like how, so that's the tricky part is like I still don't know of a true like full, fully trusted way to validate that without having like an incrementality test running. I guess you could do a user level test and house to in meta as well, but I haven't fully trust that 100% the way that I trust like a house test. But better than nothing for sure. I don't think as soon as we start talking about getting away from purchase optimizations, some form of measurement key and I want to hit that one in just a second, but yeah, optimize when you optimize for view content, you're optimizing for a browsing user of somewhat interested person. And it's like, yeah, as a brand, you want to be doing that. You want to be getting people interested. And going back to the example of Germany and the Netherlands, if you just pound Germany for a year and spend millions of dollars optimizing for purchases, it's going to exhaust that audience. It's going to start spending into Netherlands. It's going to start increasing CPA. But if you all of a sudden turn around and say, hey, all actually I want from these German users is for you to bring the people who are interested, who are going to click, view some of the landing page, make it to a PDP, that's the event I'm optimizing for. And obviously, the medic can say, oh, there's a whole different set of people that I can now serve as to because I can find people who will do that. So I do think it's really key. I do think measurements are really key component. So I like that one in terms of net new reach. I will say, so I think people misinterpret this sometimes too. It's way more of a larger brand issue. Like if you're doing 10 million a year, your goal for your what you need to do to succeed is not begin optimizing outside of purchases. This should work for a very long time. Yeah, you should focus on the creative bit first once you find, you know what's interesting? I'm curious. So actually I have two questions for you. What are you optimizing for on the non purchase conversion side and meta? Is it still mainly view content? Have you unlocked any other events? Like how diversified are you? In meta, it's really just view content on YouTube. We'll do some like view optimize stuff or CPM optimize stuff in the past. We've seen success with those, but on meddits, just been the view content support. I'm with you. I'd also like to be diverse. I think there's a lot of additional value to get. Even the view content, you're still optimizing for clickers. So like I'd still I'd still love to unlock the person who's like not clicking on ads, which I think is a big part of the user base. So I we've got it as a part of the roadmap this year. Yeah, that's a good call out. We're actually we're finding some nice wins in YouTube as well on the non-demand gen stuff. For that, we're actually not, we are not running a holdout test on that. Like I think that's this is like you don't have to run a holdout on everything. I think if you have an anchor point from a previous holdout, you can kind of connect that and create a relationship between that and this tactic that's maybe one like one layer lower or one layer removed. So we've run a bunch of holdouts on YouTube and we also measure YouTube impression. So we're kind of looking we're basically saying, all right, we know YouTube's super incremental. Like at not we've run pure holdout test, we've run scale out tests and then we're basically able to say, okay, now with this new campaign tactic, how does this pression reported Roa as compared to like the demand gen Roa as and as long as it's in the same ballpark, we're comfortable saying, okay, because we have that holdout test data as our like backbone, giving us a lot of confidence here. And it's the same with like DSP like we did a holdout on online video with Amazon. We look good and now we're running more prime video, we're running more streaming with Amazon's DSP and we're just looking at pressions, mmM Roa as and saying, okay, because we know the OLD was very incremental and because we're seeing similar readouts on the pression, mmM Roa as like we're confident in scaling that up. So because we like we don't have unlimited slots at house, we have to run our tests for a very long time. So, you know, you can kind of be creative about how you like measure some of these adjacent tactics after you've already ran a household out, which I think is interesting. Totally. My last point here on measurement as it relates to net new reach, I'm going to use the European example again, because one mistake that we've made in the past, I guess my point here is going to be if possible, measuring the incremental impact of these different tactics, creative diversity, signal engineering, different targeting, however you want to put it like are all are, it's very important to be measuring them differently if you have the bandwidth to do it. We've been making the mistake in the past in Europe saying we tried localized ads a couple years ago. We were like, yeah, to justify the effort of doing all this like local language content, we need to see 20% better performance. And that's actually not the point at all. The point is actually that every dollar spent might be incremental to what you would otherwise do. So it's really the, and that's the main metric we'd want to be influencing. Not necessarily driving up performance or driving down CPA. Ideally, you'd want it to be a very similar CPA, but even if it's the exact same, that those budget, if the local language ads are working or at least doing what you'd want are just incremental dollars you're able to spend. And I think that's a key point. The other thing that I would say is it's extremely possible that on like a Northbeam MTA basis or Facebook in platform basis, that your Italian ad might look different than your English ads, that they might have a different incremental impact. And it's the exact same where we typically see higher incrementality factors from something like partnership ads than we do our brand page ads. And there's all sorts of reasons why that might be the case, but like developing an understanding of these different tactics, as you search for net new reach, I think is like I said, hard to do takes a lot of time and energy, but a key point of figuring out what's working, what's not. Yeah. And also the, you know what's interesting for us, like, you know, if you look at our German ads, we're starting English ads. Actually on a, on an MTA measurement basis, the English ads actually look better right now than the German ads. But then if you look at the German business and its growth, like, That business unit as a percent is growing at a greater clip than the entire like EU as a whole so It's something I don't know I don't know why that is exactly I don't know if like Germans are like if the attribution is more leaky there, right? There's a ton a ton of data Like there's a lot of legal around data and consent in the EU so like I'd say the EU is probably the the bleakiest bucket in terms of Tracking goes like if someone opts out of of tracking. It's really a block a black box I think that's part of it Maybe people are less likely to click an ad and then convert They're like watch seeing the ad and then going to the website and converting but it's just you have to like have that Again, we're going back to triangulation like if we only looked at the German ads and the MTA performance We're like oh like just turn them off But it's like not no like go look at the growth of that market on Shopify versus everything else like clearly There's something happening here and you're totally right like it might look different than then your other funnels But you have to have that that nuance and how you look at the data points to make that decision and that's my exact point is like it like what you're saying is theoretically if you ran an incrementality test you would find a higher incrementality factor on the the German local language ads and That doesn't surprise me at all. I mean even for the fact that categorically it's gonna be probably a colder audience Probably haven't reached those people before they probably haven't read about hex-glide in their native language ever So it's like will it take them a couple more days to convert like I would not be surprised Yeah, yeah, and what Connor means by the incrementality factor like there's a there's a bigger gap between the like the row as that We're seeing in North beam and that cost per incremental order that we're seeing in in house. So maybe the incrementality factors like I don't know 10x right it's like take take your your one day click row as multiply by 10 and like that's your actual cost per Who knows what it actually is? I mean, it's really big when you look at like a few content campaign I mean we're running that thing and like we're happy with like a point one four acts one day click row as a North aim on view content So it's it's cool to create those relationships and then you're giving your media buyers like really like good confident KPIs to scale up or down or keep spending flat out Yeah, okay, cuz the last point and then I've got a question for you. That's way different Is I just came across this recently but like the song into a brand who is really struggling introducing new tactics because they were measuring All of the tactics in the same way and there are gonna be times where a new tactic will be so well Work so obviously well that you don't need a new form of measuring be like this looks really good But for them they were like yeah look we think we're just like kind of Meta stuck targeting the same people and we're measuring it the same way and every all the new things that we're trying In the way that we measure it don't seem to be performing any better And it really just comes down to that that difference and like the incrementality factor that they might be driving actually a different Total impact from this new channel or strategy or content Then they're seeing in the standard MTA your in-platform way that they're measuring it. I Think that is a really good good thing to be aware of like my it's actually the I'd say it's actually More often than not that you need a different way of measuring then you then you can use the same one Like going back to that creator that I talked about that we found a lot of success reaching a new audience with There one day click out of the gate was really strong comparatively to like our entire account and like we were confident scaling it that way And that is the same way like that is looking at it the same way as we were looking at everything else But after about a month the one day click really fell off But the engagement rate was so good and it was such a high percent new visit rate that I was like to our media buyer I'm like, hey, let's keep spending on this and just see what happens You know the business performing well. We're not gonna like hurt ourselves if this doesn't pan out Ensure enough we stayed consistent with how we were spending on it even though the one day click row I started a fall kind of below our benchmarks because the percent new visit rate was so high because the the Demo breakdown in meta was so different than our account wide And sure enough we got to the end of the year and if you go and look at all the data from the moment we launched through the end of the year And you add that row as lift metric to our north beam table These ads her ads had the highest row as lift I think it was like a hundred percent growth and return on ad spend going from like the one day click to the LTV Compared to the rest of our account so like we ultimately made the right decision and how we scaled on it because it just had a longer Like a longer half-life it took longer for that audience to convert But that's a great example where we had to shift how we were thinking about how to measure her performance Like if we would have only looked at one day click we would have turned her ads off in a month and probably spent $75,000 on a hundred thousand dollar deal and not got our money's worth and In the on the contrary we spent six seven hundred grand on on their ads. You do have to think about every single tactic Thiraly and you can't just have this like blanket cookie cutter way of measuring or you're probably gonna make bad decisions on Tactics that you know just are doing different things and they have different data points because of that Multi-touch attribution tools are great, but there's one big downfall and it's that most brands are using them to make next month's budget decisions With last month's data your attribution tool cannot tell you what happens if you shift 50k from meta to CTV or whether your best channel has already hit saturation MTA and platform reporting will only tell you what happened Precients mm tells you what will happen you can see where your next dollar will perform best Catch where channels are maxing out and hitting their saturation curves and move money before you waste it Models update daily for online and weekly for retail so you're always working with current data And it also maps out how your channels work together. This is one of my favorite things about pressure It tells you things like how meta drives Amazon sales how CTV lists branded search We use it at hex clad other brands like sofa and cotary are also using it and it ultimately is like a GPS for our performance marketing And you'll get your first insights within a week if you're interested go to press an AI dot com slash operators PRE SCI ENT AI dot com slash operators to see how pression can give you your next best move Okay, all right, I've got a question for you. This is another um, I talked to a different brand recently So I'm gonna lay out the scenario for you. Okay Founders don't have ddc backgrounds fantastic operators, but they don't have ddc marketing backgrounds brand is doing like 30 million dollars a year It's a consumable. It's high LTV. They're currently 75% retail so far in a way they're selling in In retail stores They are hiring their first kind of senior marketing role I don't want to say the exact title, but like you can imagine it's a director of acquisition Head of ecom is something something like hey, we need someone in here is gonna solve a bunch of problems is basically the scope of the role um, and Actually, what I should say is we need someone to come in and solve a bunch of problems is like their goal for Hiring this person and my question for you is Given that no strong marketing leadership relatively establish established brand Obvious product market fit in retail. How do you scope the role for this director of acquisition? ahead of ecom sort of person? Um, that's my first question. What skills are you looking for? What backgrounds are you looking for? It's my This one laying out for you. Are they going? Are they trying to go into Like ddc is that their goal? They want to grow the ddc business. It's a yeah great question Well, I'm certainly finding someone that has experience at like a high LTV brand like I'm not gonna go and hire someone that Is like I wouldn't hire someone from hex cloud where it's like we're very acquisition first order driven Because they're not gonna really I probably understand the unit economics that that need to make sense I'm hiring someone that knows how to model out like a like a 12 month Like cohort based LTV and they can measure that over time and they can they know like all right based on this lifetime value Um, I can spend it as a cat so I think that would be box number one to check definitely a Performance like an analytics person like someone that is a is a performance marketer, but leans heavy analytics, especially with the the Trichiness of like halo into retail which is already an established channel like I'd want someone that knows how to model that as well and Then yeah, I mean they have to have just like ddc because that has they have to be complimentary to the the founder that doesn't presumably the founder is like a product person So this person have to be super complimentary to that person. So I would say Hopefully has worked at a high LTV brand that has both retail and ddc and is very Analytics like performance driven is gonna make decisions based on the numbers and then I would have them hire someone that's more of like the creative Brand side, but I would start with the I would start with that like really quantitative Brain person so they could start to like model out what what makes sense for the business from a numbers perspective And then they can make scale decisions based on like all right You know, I know our our LTV to cat like our LTV 12 months is 300 bucks, so I can spend it a hundred dollar cat and I also you know They have some way to model out the halo into retail right maybe they're they have the ability to like do some sort of correlation analysis between what they're spending on On media and how they're how they're like retail is growing so they can also say okay And we we can assume like 20% spill over into retail or something like that So they just have this like super buttoned up model of the business that considers all those things so Yeah, that's probably like a media buyer. I'm guessing now that like wanted to get it back on because what I was gonna What I was gonna ask and you've basically answered it. I think you you hit on a lot of really really good points that I wasn't really thinking about. The high LTV nature, someone who's comfortable modeling out the cohorts, understanding like exactly what CACD needs for a type of person. We really love that as a skill set. I think like they can go a couple different directions. This person needs direct experience in like, I'd say roughly one of three things, or you'd need at least one of these. The measurement, I'd put media buying, measurement, channel allocation, all in one bucket. I'd put web optimization in another bucket, like really strong funnel building. And then I'd put creating the performance creative ad content supply chain as another one. Now you have the ability, this person will have the ability to then hire some sort of manager or director beneath them. So are you prioritizing that media buying skill set? And then what would you, if you're that person, who are you hiring first? - I'm prioritizing, like if it's a, if the D to C channels like pretty new, like I would want the, like the leader to be the one, actually buying the ads at first, because it shouldn't take up that much of their time, right? It's a brand new ad account. It's gonna be mainly upfront work, and then probably like an hour a week, right? Of just like adding new ads or optimizing the account. And also that forces them to be closer to the data early on. So I actually wouldn't hire a media buyer under them right away. I'd be hiring someone super complemented to that person, like a great creative strategist, maybe a creator that is both creative strategist is like can, you know, just someone that can like, brief out concept that can maybe do a little bit of editing and design or even shooting on their own. So that way that the person who's like really thinking about the numbers from a, or from the business from a numbers and like performance lever standpoint has a bunch of inputs. So this person hopefully could like, brief outlanders, brief out ads, maybe even shoot and design some of their own ads, their own landers. So that way that this person that was like great, now that I got the unit economics dialed, let's go optimize this thing, right? And well, how do I optimize it? Like more creative, better landing pages, all the stuff that we were just talking about. So I would hire that creative person to complement this like very analytical performance marketing person probably and let those two people just go and cook together. I like that. A couple other thoughts I had throughout. So my, my, I really like your answer and you're kind of winning me over a little bit. The way that they had written the job description was very like tech oriented. They have more have like a tech, almost software background. So they were thinking of head of e-commerce, they were thinking like website first. They were like, someone's gonna lay out the roadmap, do the CR row, do the design, things like that. And I do think that's important. And if you look at brands like IMA or even Marsman, I mean like they are so good on like the CRO front and for a high LTV brand, getting that subscription is so important, getting that subscriber, that there's obviously value in that. But if I'm hiring this marketing leader head of e-commerce, that's probably not the first skill that I'm looking for. And I think we're in agreement there. You went media buying. I went more creative side. At least someone, someone deeply familiar, you would need, obviously, you have to hire someone who's analytical, who's gonna understand the, how to model out the cohorts and understand what CAC do you need. But direct experience in like either bringing in agencies or creators and like really building out that funnel for new content, big affiliate programs, things like that. If I can find someone who's done that in their past and I think is all the attributes they need to like be leveled up or have already leveled up into a more senior leader within an org, like a kind of like that is the direct experience. When would you bring in, you know, I'm very curious about this because I have a friend who, I have a friend who runs a medical device company. It's a direct to consumer medical device company, like seven to $10,000 average order value, very unique, very unique business model, but like huge nurture play, right? 'Cause ultimately what happens is like, they're capturing a lead. They're putting, they run a lot of Facebook ads. They're getting a lead. And then ultimately they have this nurture funnel where like they need a doctor to write a subscription for this person. So this person can get the product covered by insurance. So there's a massive like, there's a lot of steps this person needs to take. So they're trying to figure out like, God, who is that person? Like who is that life cycle brain? And it probably doesn't come from a D to C background. It actually probably comes from like a B to B background where there's a long sales cycle or like another healthcare company, maybe like a pillow club or something like that. Or like a tech life cycle where you're selling like higher ticket tech products where like yes, you get this lead in the door but then you get the nurture nurture nurture and like, well, you got item step by step. So at what point would this be like a very, like a consumable high LTV brand? When would you bring in that life cycle person? That's gonna be focused on pretty much all things from like point in conversion, CRO, what you just said. Like we gotta get that subscription early on and then everything after that. Like how do we extract as much value out of these people as possible? Is that coming? Is that like your next wave of hire for this brand? - Totally. - I mean, it's such a good question. When you and Cody and I talked about this months ago about the first three hires we'd make if we were like, if we were director of growth, what are the first three hires you'd make. And for a long time, I said I would hire a retention marker early and Cody was like stupid. (laughs) He totally won me over on that. 'Cause I'm like, oh yeah, it's like, it does feel that might be a more, I mean, for like this is in the sense, let's just think about it from like a, it's a non-high LTV brand perspective that a lot of the retention, you can get a lot of the value of retention with like just set up the right flows. Set up the behavioral flows, do a couple campaigns. That's probably the 80, 20 of a retention program for a business like Ridge that is not repeat purchase happy. What I don't have a lot of insight into is how impactful can that role be for a high LTV business? Like reducing churn, what is that, what value can you generate if you're constantly iterating and testing on life cycle marketing and retention? So the answers I don't quite know, aside from the fact that when it comes to growing the DDC business, so much of it is just gonna come from getting the customers up front. Where I'm like, oh yeah, it's probably my first like, two or three hires are like, let's just figure out how to get great content, get across the channels that we need to get people to our site, get that site up to snuff so it's converting people at a decent rate. And then it's really only after I solve, feel really good about having solved all those problems that I'm bringing in someone who's like, hey, I need you to fix the churn that's happening at month four. - Right. You know, I actually see, I think the, like I see the person pulling the levers in retention being, you know, like basically email SMS and then some other channels, different than the person who's owning that like LTV metric. Like I see the person, like I see the retention manager or lifecycle manager reporting into this person who's maybe like, I don't know what the title would be. But basically I think there's two roles, right? Who owns acquisition and that like, you know, driving down CAC as much as it possibly can be and scaling top line as much as it can be. And then you have the person who kind of takes the baton and says, great, now my role starts again with like, it's not just retention, right? It's a lot of on-site CRO, it's a lot of cohort analysis, a lot of offer testing. And then it is a lot of also own media to do what you've said, to drive up LTV to reduce churn, maybe direct males in there. You know, there's by loyalty programs and like logged in on site experience stuff. But I see that role, again, I don't know exactly what it's called. Maybe it is like the director of like time value or something like that. But I see that as a different role. And then I think like the channel manager of email SMS would actually report into that person because I have found that when you talk to a lot of like life cycle marketing managers or email SMS folks, a lot of them actually don't really have a good sense of what we just talked about like the entire lifetime value chart. A lot of them are like great tacticians in email SMS and that's not a knock on them. That's super important. But just because someone's a great email SMS tactician doesn't necessarily mean they would be the right person to drive lifetime value and reduce churn and all these things for a brand like this because that really spans more than just email SMS. That spans on site, that spans like again, account logged in state. Multi channel, you're bringing up direct male. Yeah, totally. There's a there's a paid component potentially. Yes, exactly. So, but I think for like if you're a brand like man go to Mars like that role makes a ton of sense. So if you're a brand like cadence or absorb me like that role makes a ton of sense because you have like your huge consumable product. You have a lot of breadth now too in your product category. So a lot of opportunity to like get someone into the sachet is that's fine. The RTD drink like there's so much opportunity and you need to have that like that call it like lifetime value leader that's going to own all the own media direct mail, on site, CRO, all these things. That's like kind of the right hand person to the acquisition lead. All right, so I've got some interesting numbers to share from Ridge from a beloved sponsor, Ridge panel. We switched our support stack at Ridge to Ridge panel about 15 months ago and our cost particular has dropped over 70%. That means same team, same volume and over $500,000 in annual savings. C sets have not changed. We've been sitting in 96% week after weeks of the automations did not come at the cost of customer experience. Our last platform talked a lot about AI, but nothing was really changing under the hood. Rich panel is genuinely AI first. They came in, they rebuilt our workflows, and we were live in under two weeks with basically no lift on our side. And they're about to roll out a returns portal, which for us is huge because if they can do the same thing for returns as they did for customer service, that would be sick. If you want to cut down your support costs now and save on returns platform with an AI first platform, talk to Rich panel. Go to richpanel.com/demo, tell them Conor for marketing operator sent you, and they'll take good care of you. Thank you. Okay, last question. This director of acquisition had a VCOM. We've scoped out the role. I love it. What do you pay that person? 200,000 at least. For a 30 million per year brand. It's remote. Well, maybe less than if you can find someone that's like not an NYC or Austin, but I think I don't think you're going to find the right person for especially if you're trying to, like I'm assuming this brand's like we can be a nine figure brand in two years, right? Or three years. We found product market. They have really great ambitions for sure. Yeah, I would go and pay top dollar to attract a really good leader or top dollar plus some skin in the game. It's like all right, $200,000 plus. We're going to put you on a pretty solid equity package that vests over four years, like really incentivize this person. And then also give them the goals and get out of their way. Kind of work to you. I think we can hit this much top line revenue this year over the course of three years. We think we need to be roughly at this CAC like set those guard rails and get out like that's what I think Chad from Bruins does incredibly well is like he set the guard rails for his team from a numbers perspective. Then he gets out of their way. So then like the team can go and make decisions. They don't need to go to Chad and say, hey, like can we scale up by 30% and it's like no, you're if you're under your CAC target and we know that that CAC target backs into the out like the CAC to LTV like go do what you want to do. So I'm going higher price point because if you're this founder, you don't want you want this to be additive to you, right? You don't want it to be like, oh, we're paying, we're we hire someone three years experienced. They're good, but they're so pretty junior. And now it's requiring more of your time. When in reality, you were trying to like offload this and have it work and grow and scale. So you can go and develop new products or find new retailers to sell into and like have a have a bigger surface area. So I'm going I'm going more experience probably probably spending at least $200,000 on on this role. I would have big expectations from someone getting paid paid that amount and a lot of experience and and yeah, shots on that. That's what I said. Yeah, I said 180 to 220. Remote being a big advantage. Yeah, like I think I think this the type of quality that you're looking for here in like in the city of New York, I think it's like a $300,000 higher like it you like easily. So 180 to 20. That's pre bonus. Also, there's a lot more yeah, pre bonnet. Yeah. So this is probably like rolling up to 250 to 300 event. And if it's working. Yeah. I think there's a lot more people that there's a lot more people in like the the acquisition bucket than there are in the like lifetime value bucket. I just think because generally the the LT maybe the business models a little less less common than like a business that just has to like every business has to figure out acquisition regardless of whether or not you're you're very like a first order profitability driven business or if you're a hey, we're going to spend in to be an unprofitable on the first order, but over 12 24 months we're going to make our money like everyone has to go and figure out acquisition. But not everyone has to go and figure out this like complex web of lifecycle marketing and driving lifetime values. I think that person because of that becomes even more valuable. Totally. What's this product category? Do you do you have any is this a is this a hypothetical or is this a real? No, no, it's a real yeah, yeah, no, I won't say the product category. It's something you consume every day. Uh, I'm gonna say it's like a supplement. It was a brand I talked to this week. Okay, cool. All right, tweet. Let me wrap up. I got a test of the week for us. Our our quarterly test of the week. We're so we're back on a test of the week. It's been 50 episodes, but we're here. Okay, test of the week. I thought this was a good one. I was really excited about this. It's not it's not it's not super revolutionary. Um, we ran a great YouTube test. New content. It was still purchased optimized. Uh, and we did actually. Yeah, we did a YouTube test. And what we found on this test was that over 50% of revenue generated was being captured on Amazon. Have you ever gotten a test back? So this is obviously this is this is um, purchase optimized campaigns on YouTube. We're driving to our site. We're optimizing for on site purchases. Google has no idea who's buying on Amazon. We get a great incrementality readout. And one of the reasons that's the case is because over 50% of revenue generated. We observed on Amazon. And the way that happens is we're feeding in different revenue streams into house, our geo-lift testing tool and beloved sponsor. Um, so that we can see the exact lift in the market that we're targeting on both Shopify and Amazon. And I'd never seen something as high as 50% have you? Dude, we've had like we've run CTV tests that have been like seven to one Amazon. Amazon. Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. Oh, yeah. We see a ton, a ton of halo and YouTube is similar, not as much as CTV. But yeah, we see I think it wasn't it wasn't one to one. It was like it's been like four to one. Yeah, three to one. Oh, yeah. We see tons. It's crazy. Purchase optimized on YouTube, driving Amazon purchases four to one. Yeah, I think go back and look at our our most recent scale up as like it. It's it's skews. We find that anything that the further we get away from a click to our dot com. So like you to CTV all these I would assume podcasts is probably the same. Although we haven't run a holdout on it. I would assume linear is the same. The further way we get from a direct click path to dot com, the larger distribution of incremental orders. We see on Amazon against dot com and I don't care necessarily. It's not like a bad thing. I think you know, I want people to go and buy or they're comfortable buying. And it's also one of the reasons we're able to like grow Amazon and not have to do a ton of like micro optimizations like with our sponsored ads or or with, you know, we still do those things, but it's like, Hey, just by spending up on CTV and YouTube this year, we should see Amazon grow and and reap the benefits of that. Yeah. Have you had any others that have been that high? No, not that I can remember. I remember there's an X. I think it was an X test. Like last year that we saw 40% get captured on. Amazon. So it was like almost one to one. But otherwise, yeah, we're still we're a lot of the test we run are heavy heavy.com. Yeah. I'll send you some I'll send some screenshots of some of the tests we've ran after this and show you what we're saying. You know what I will say is, I think a lot of these are very category dependent. So like I wouldn't be surprised if cookware didn't skew towards Amazon just naturally or like I see we see rings really skew towards D to C and I don't I don't quite know why, but I think it's just like different different categories, different products, concerns who you're targeting. And that's probably what it comes down to is like maybe our our ring buyer is older. So it's like, yeah, maybe they're they're less they're shopping on Amazon at a lower rate, something like that. There's a lot of things that dictate how significant that split can be. It's yeah, it's really interesting. I'll take a look at our holdout test after this and send you some screenshots on some of the different channels. You get a sense of the of the distribution. But yeah, I think I'd be curious to if like any of our audience sees anything and they want to comment in the in the two comments and let us know. But my the pattern I'm recognizing is the more video based, the more upper funnel it is, the more incrementality there is on on Amazon. Cool. Um, I see we call that an episode. All right, that's a wrap on this episode of the marketing operators. We hope you enjoyed it. If you are enjoying it, make sure to like, comment, subscribe and share with your friends. Thank you to the sponsors motion after sell house, pressure and rich panel. We'll see you next time.