Why Your Iron Supplements Might Not Be Working, and the Collagen Truth Every Woman Needs to Know

Have you had low iron before? Have you taken your iron supplements? Then notice that your iron levels never actually improved. On today's episode of the Nutrition Catch, we deep dive iron supplementation and discuss the factors that impact how well your iron is absorbed in the body. Hi, I'm Leanne Ward. And I'm Susie Borrow. And together we bring you the Nutrition Catch, the weekly podcast that keeps you up to date with everything that you need to know in the world of nutrition. As well as all things iron absorption. We also talk the trend of fibre maxing. We have a brand new wooly's meal on the go to review and our listener question is all about the evidence and truth behind collagen supplementation. But to kick us off today, Susie, we are chatting fibre maxing and it is quite the trend I've seen at all over social media, all over TikTok, all over Instagram. And I don't mind it. And you will rarely ever hear me saying that I don't mind a social media nutrition trend. But this is one of those ones that I actually quite like. Because basically what the fibre maxing trend is, is it deliberately trying to encourage people to actually increase their fibre intake by adding more things like legumes, hog grains, vegetables, fruits, nuts and seeds to their meals and to their day. So this is actually a very real problem when we look at the nutrition landscape. 90 something plus percent of people in Australia are not eating enough vegetables and they're very likely not eating enough fibre either. So we know that fibre intake needs improving. The fibre maxing trend is I think basically talking about how to increase your fibre intake as much as you possibly can. But there are some little nuances to that that I just wanted to talk about on the podcast because I do think that people need to deliberately increase the amount of vegetables they eat, hog grains, legumes, nuts and seeds. So I think most dietitians actually agree with this trend because we do fall well short of our recommended fibre intake. And we know that fibre is really important from a gut health perspective. It helps to manage cholesterol, blood sugar control and there's actually a lot of research in terms of people who have adequate whole food fibre intake can help prevent some long-term chronic disease as well. But more fibre isn't always better, particularly for those people with quite sensitive tummies. And I believe that the average Australian gets in around sort of 15 grams of fibre. So if you're trying to go from 15 grams of fibre to like 50 grams of fibre overnight, that is not going to end well. I can promise you that. You are going to be very bloated, very uncomfortable, probably quite gassy and not wanting to be in a contained room with other people. So you've got to go low and you've got to go slow. You've got to start with your fibre and gradually increase it slowly and then you need to add enough water in. Because if you're adding a ton of fibre in and you're not adding enough water in, you are going to be very, very uncomfortable. You're probably just going to make things worse. So that is the first point. I really, really want to drive home for our nutrition catch listeners. That yes, fibre is super important but do not increase it too quickly. Do not go from 10, 12, 15 grams of fibre up to 50 overnight. It will end badly. I promise you that and make sure that you have enough fluids. Now the type of fibre also matters because I believe Susie was it a few episodes ago, we reviewed one of the fibre wraps and it had like 16 grams of fibre in a tiny small mini white wrap, like not a great idea. So really make sure that that fibre is coming from whole food sources as much as possible. Yes, you can use things like sillium hus, metamusel to get that fibre intake up. But I certainly would not be getting in, you know, 30 grams of sillium hus and then, you know, increasing, you know, a tin of beans and legumes, a couple of slices of grainy bread, and a four-queue fruit all in one day because you know, it's just, it's going to end badly. I think what I see with fibre is people have incredibly low amounts one day and then super low the next. So forgetting that it's about consistency with digestive holds. So a classic example is when you go travelling and all of a sudden you get terribly constipated because you've gone from eating your regular diet with fresh food and fresh fruits and you're on a flight for 24 hours and eating plain food which was notoriously low in dietary fibre to stop people using the bathrooms too much. So you've got lots of white rice and plain chicken kind of meals and then the snacks are things like potato chips and biscuits and ice cream. So you're not getting that fresh food bulk and then you become dehydrated and of course not moving and that's the triad for terrible gut health. And what I see with busy people is similar, you know, they're good on the days that are home and having vegetables and then suddenly they're at an event and they're at a conference or travelling or at an early morning flight and they skip their regular whole grainy bread and cereal for something like a protein shake or just coffee. They're having catered lunches which is sort of notorious for low fibre options like sushi or white bread and white wraps on cakes and biscuits as the snacks. No, not a lot of fresh food or at the Qantas Club with the cheese and crackers. And then, you know, the dinners are eating out and when you go to a restaurant or even catered food, canopays, they're notoriously low in fibre. So all of a sudden your poor gut goes from having a certain amount to very low and we wonder why everything slows down and on top of that we drink alcohol because we're socialising or travelling, not drinking a fluid and we're not doing our regular exercise and again these are the three things and what I often say with my clients is that they're all of a sudden stressed because they're not going to the bathroom as frequently, they're bloated and then they super load the fibre as you describe. So they're having four kiwi fruit and then they're having a bowl of bran and a bowl of vegetable soup and all these beans and it just compacts in and nothing's working. So you're much better to do it consistently. And one thing I've always done when I travel funnily enough is that I'll always have bran when I go away like I'll just start with the cereal when I get there to stop getting clogged up. I try not to eat a whole lot on planes because I find it makes it worse. I always have a soup before I go. So there's certainly some strategies that you can implement when you are travelling but just be mindful that it's those three things you require. It's not about more and more and more. It's about getting the right types of fibre. Keeping in mind there's different types of fibre in cooked vegetables versus raw vegetables. I'm not sure you're getting the high fibre fruits, making sure you're getting a lot of fluid and some good quality type of bran or whole grain bread cereal is not just loading up on beans. For example, a whole mix of options but you need to have plenty of fluid and sometimes the best thing is going to the gym or going for a run to get everything moving. So it's the three tiered approach rather than just I've got clients who definitely just super load. So yeah, I think it's a really interesting trend but I would prefer people to just be consistent with it and be mindful that when you're going to a cafe you're not getting much fibre from a sourdough bread. When you're picking up food on the run and you're having fish bowl which is incredibly popular at the moment or you're having wraps or you're having salads away from the home you're often not getting that great quality fibre. So if you haven't had a fibre rich meal at lunchtime, making a concerted effort to add a soupy and or have cooked vegetables at night and just things we automatically should be doing because I would much rather somebody have 25 grams of fibre every day than 51 day and 20 or 10 the next and that's what I notice tend to happen particularly over the weekends when people are having the bunning sausages or the canopays, the pizza, the fibre intake goes through good to really low really quickly and that will absolutely have an impact on your digestive health and regularity. Yeah and people are noticing on Monday you know we always get comments from clients saying my bowels are all over the place what's happening and it is just that consistency with weekend eating. In those dietitians we are certainly very supportive, we want all the strength to eat more fibres and all of our listeners to eat more fibre but rather than fibre maxing we want to call it being fibre smart don't we being fibre consistent, we want you to focus on more plants, more legumes, more nuts and seeds, more variety, more water, more whole foods and build it up gradually and do it consistently and your gut will thank you rather than hating you from going from 10 grams to 50 grams back down to 10 grams a day. And we've forgotten the most important thing that we talk about all the time, the fibre in formulated foods is not the same. So when you see these mega wraps with this processed fibre or even snack bars packed full of chiquiri root and one of the others that they stick in there. In Yulane and they tapioca starch and yes it has some benefit but really when you look at the research around the health benefits and the reduction in chronic disease and the support that you get from a gut microbiome perspective it's really it's the whole foods, legumes and nuts, the seeds, like actually add some beans into your dinner. If you're making a spaghetti put a tin of lentils in it, if you're making Mexican add some black beans that is the type of fibre that you want. We don't want 12 grams of fibre coming from a protein bar or 15 grams of fibre from your breakfast granola, it's probably going to do your gut you know worse than good because you're going to be so bloated and gassy there's so many people. So focus on real food when it comes to increasing your fibre and your gut will be a lot happier for it. So if you're seeing these products like the reps we talked about that have got you know 10, 12, 15 grams it's too much in one sitting and straight away we know that's processed fibre and not as good for you so just stick to the natural sources. Alright Leanne we're excited aren't we, has dietitians? We don't get that excited very often it's actually in my career because I've worked a long time now it's very rare that I see something that excites me. That's very rare I say research and I'm like oh yeah that's new and this I had actually not seen this before which is I probably should have but super interesting but I came up on Instagram because at the moment my feeds filled with all things iron deficiency and it was actually something I hadn't seen before I thought it was fascinating as did you when I sent it to you so we desperately wanted to talk about it on the nutrition couch because we've spoken a few weeks ago about iron and low ferretion and this is a fascinating study that will make things a little bit clearer why perhaps you have supplemented with iron before and perhaps not had the best results. So it's a study published in a very reputable journal the Lancet hematology way back in 2017 so this certainly isn't new and the title I'm going to read it because it's a very strong study unit called iron absorption from oral iron. iron supplements given on consecutive versus alternate days and as a single morning dose versus twice daily split dosing in iron depleted women to open label randomised control trials. So this is a very, very well designed study and to put it into layman's terms, it's basically comparing the effect of iron uptake in the body of a group of women who had low extremely low ferritin levels. So we spoke about this the other day. So their ferritin I think was under 25 and I think the range is like 50 to 200. So they were way, way low in ferritin. That's my concern when I see women who are particularly low in ferritin. And basically what they were looking at was the effect of absorption. So given quite high amounts of iron, 60 milligrams at a set time each day on consecutive days for 14 days and the other group was given the same dose. So it on alternate days for double the amount of time and it was randomly controlled. So it was all a very, very well designed study. Now what the studies looking at and what I actually want to talk about will talk about the results in a second. Basically physiologically what happens when the body is trying to absorb iron, a lot of it comes down to the role of a peptide hormone called hepsydin. Hepsydin? Hepsydin. Hepsydin. Hepsydin. Hepsydin. Hepsydin. Hepsydin. Hepsydin. She is from Queensland. They pronounce things slightly differently. But it's the same thing. And it's basically produced by the liver and it acts as the master regulator of iron, homeostasis. So it's basically managing our iron levels and interestingly, they are in people with hemacromatosis. They don't have that enhance their more likely to iron overload which is fascinating. Physiologically they're missing it. So basically it's telling the liver how much to absorb or not. But it's got a couple of mechanisms that can impact the way that we absorb iron. So basically all different things. If you've got infection for example, it can block it to allow the cells to be without iron so they don't replicate too quickly. But in the case of supplementing, so when you've got a female who has very, very low ferrous in levels and she suddenly takes a really high elemental dose as you would see in ferrograd C or in Maltafar, the other supplements we use here in Australia, when you take a very, very high amount, basically this peptide, hepsydin, it triggers a temporary spike in that that lasts for about 24 hours and acts as a block to subsequent doses and it's like a protective mechanism to prevent iron overload. So suddenly the body is like not like oh we're low, I need more and more. The basic physiology is oh you've got a huge amount come in, 60 milligrams is huge. And I think Maltafar's even more, I think Maltafar's like a, isn't ferrograd C like 100? 100, yeah. So it's super high amounts. Keep in mind our RDI is like 15, 18 or something. So you're having amounts 3, 4 or 5 times that coming in. The body goes or hang on, I need to be careful with this because I don't want to have too much because that's also damaging to the body itself. So it basically blocks it for 24 hours. And hence the recommendation from a number of GPs and rightly so, that if you are supplementing with iron and you're very low, you need to only take it on alternate days to avoid this reaction where you're taking it but it's not being absorbed and actually being blocked. So back to the results of the study which were so interesting. So interestingly, Lian, and not surprising given now we know how that peptide, is it a peptide? What did I say? It was a, it's a hormone. It's a hormone now. So basically the differences in the alternate day group was the total iron absorption was 71.4 compared to 110. So basically as we would expect it was significantly better in the group who had alternate day supplementation. So I thought it's not groundbreaking in the sense it makes sense but it also is a reminder as why if you've been taking iron supplements too frequently when your levels of feroton are low that you might not have had the response that you were looking for and certainly it's better to split to have the dose on alternate days for maximum absorption. And I think it did say it's better to split it as well. No, it was just alternate days. Just alternate days. So yeah, so that's basically why because of that. So if you're on social media you would have seen a lot of people writing about absorption. So the question I have, Lian, are you still then better to orally supplement versus get an infusion? And that's I think a question because I think if iron supplements don't agree with you, you know, you get an upset stomach from them, you find that it's really harsh on the gut, you're probably better to get an infusion. But for whatever reason you have difficulty getting it, you don't want to pay because it can be an elective choice. The doctor's recommending against it. Certainly the best advice has been to supplement and scientifically on alternate days at a reasonably high dose. I prefer multiple for myself like if I was recommending a supplement for clients, I would go that over ferrograd C, but I've had some people who use ferrograd C. I think that it's more important to do it occasionally like every second day at a good dose to bring the levels up. And then you ultimately want to be checking to make sure that it's been uptaken by the body because for a range of different reasons, sometimes that iron won't be well absorbed. You might have an infection, you might have some other things going on, you might consume a lot of tea or coffee that you hadn't thought about. All those factors do have impacted the way you're consuming it because it can block it. And I had a listener question come up about timing of oxalates as well, which we're going to cover in a future episode. So yeah, I think it's just most important that you're doing that follow up a month or two later to make sure that your stores have been brought up back to regular levels and then make a decision rather than assuming that it's okay because I do notice a lot of people will come in the iron, they'll start some supplements, they feel a bit better and then they let it go. But you forget you've got to build the stores right up again back to normal and make sure that you maintain them with an adequate oral intake. Or if your ideal is to take a low dose supplement long-term, whatever you've got to have a plan for it basically, you don't want to just hope it's up there because you feel a bit better. Yeah, it's super, super interesting. And as dietitians and many GPs have always recommended every second day for iron supplementation, but it's good to actually have the research to come back to. Like you said, it's not new. The study's been around for a long time. It wasn't a huge, huge study. It was a great design study, but there was only 19 women. So it wasn't huge. So it is worth a good discussion with your GP, but certainly many of the gastroenterologists I've worked with in the past have always recommended second day iron absorption. So basically the practical implication that the study was recommending was they're sort of saying, instead of taking 100 milligrams of iron every day, it may actually be better to take 200 milligrams of iron every second day. That's a whopping dose as well because they're saying that the alternate day dosing improved iron absorption by around 40 to 50%. And that is absolutely massive. But the big question I had when I read this Susie was, well, what are the GI side effects? Because surely 200 milligrams of like elemental iron is a huge amount every second day. But interestingly, there were no like hugely significant differences in the GI side effects between both groups. So the most common side effects from a gastrointestinal perspective was nausea and epigastric pain for both doses. So in both groups, there were a few women who both experienced a bit of nausea and a bit of pain, but it was no worse in the 200 milligram dosing versus 100 milligram dosing. So quite similar. And I think one of the ladies had a case of some vomiting as well. So basically the difference between the amounts were similar from a side effect perspective, which would for me as a dietician, if the GP was on board and happy, I'd probably be recommending the high dose every second day. But then we also know that iron can be quite constipating for some people as well. So that there brings the fiber, fluid physical activity thing back into play as well. So a few things to manage, I think, but certainly worth a trial, I think if you're someone who's consistently had low iron or, you know, it takes a really, really, really long time for that ferritin to come up on the blood test as well, but just really, really fascinating. Yes, and I will say it's the single dosing not splitting the dose is important too because that impacts the peptide that's impacting it all. So yes, single dosing, even if it's every second day, don't split it. All right, Leanne, well, these have got a new ready-made range of meals. And I did, have you noticed this? I have noticed them. I haven't tried them, but I have noticed them. I had a client try them. Well, I have to be honest. So I've been talking about this for a while now. I have loved what calls are doing in this space for a while. Unfortunately, we're not paid by other calls or willies. We are open to it. But I have preferred what calls have been doing in a ready meal sort of pre-made option for quite some time. I think some of their calls finest is really good. And I had noticed willies were lagging behind a bit, but they've come to the party with a whole new range of ready-to-go meals in the fresh food section. I don't love the packaging. I'll be honest. I think that it's not overly attractive. They've got that real, like the salad, sort of that glossy, plastic film with the black riding. I just don't think it is overly appealing looking, but let's not take away from the nutritional. So we're going to look at one of the products there at the moment. And certainly like many food suppliers, they are targeting a high-approach in approach. So there's the ones we're going to look at today, the bowls. There's a whole range of bowls there that are heavily marketed as high protein with 35 grams. And I just randomly chose the Woolworth's Teriyaki chicken bowl. Now, as I said, I don't love the packaging. It's not visually appealing to me. It retails for $12. So that's $12 for the meals, not insignificant, not overly high, but it's up there for health star rating. There's we know there's issues with health star ratings, so it doesn't always give us a lot of information. If I look at the ingredient list, which is generally what we go to first, cook brown rice 30%, followed by RSPCA approved chicken 25. So that is a high amount. Water edamame being 9%, and a lot of food companies will use edamame to bump up the protein a little bit. I will say the edamame looked discullard in the packet, which is not overly healing. Edamame has got to be bright green, doesn't it? Otherwise, it does look like a real mushy color. Broccoli, florets, carrot, cook quinoa, 3.5%. Soy sauce, mirin, brown sugar cornstarch, teriyaki seasoning, vegetable gum, acidity regulator, crushed ginger, garlic, dextrose, salt, canola, oil, sesame seeds, tapioca starch, black pepper, citrus fiber, and a natural preservative. So safe to say that those things are in there in relatively small amounts, even though there is quite a few ingredients and additives listed. So nutritionally per serve, it's 350 grams, which is about the size of a small phrase and meal weight wise. Comes in at just shy of 450 calories per serve, so a decent load for a meal, 35 grams of protein, which is a nice amount for that calorie load. It's low fat, seven grams of fat, definitely low, less than 1% saturated, 56 grams of carbohydrate, 12 grams of sugars, less than 5% sugar overall, though, coming from those sources. Teriyaki source is notorious for having a bit of sugar. 5.2 grams of dietary fiber, which is not overly high for that calorie load. You'd really want 8 to 10 for a meal, 7, 14 milligrams of sodium, not high, not overly low. What do we think, Leanne? I wouldn't have bought this one 'cause I didn't think it looks very nice. It looks a bit mushy to me. The protein is high, I think, for $12 is at high. Well, you can get a can of tuna for, what, 20 grams of protein for four bucks. So it's not overly cheap for that level of protein. I give it a, I don't know, 8 out of 10, I guess, if it tastes good, we have not tried it. What do you think? I had a client who tried it and she has a, she has a very particular palate and she was not impressed. Oh, to this. She decided it wasn't bit mushy and it looks, it looks like it looks like it's been overcooked a little bit, like it doesn't look very, like the photo on the front looks better than the bowl itself. It does look a bit mushy, like it's sort of been oversteamed a little bit. She wasn't that impressed. She said she wouldn't buy it again. She did try a few of the others in the range. She said they were a little bit better, but I think in her opinion, the Coles one sort of come out on top, but all of these pre-made meals, they're never going to be as good as making it fresh from home. So this is, they're targeting a certain busy person who doesn't have the time, or I guess they want to cook for themselves. So there's a little bit of, you know, sacrifice that comes with that, I guess you're not going to get chef star, polity meals from the supermarket. Would I bite myself? No, would I recommend it to clients? Yes, but again, a certain type of client. A certain type of client. But someone who doesn't mind mushy food. Yeah, and it doesn't want to cook in, you know, just wants to reheat something, I guess, is fine. And who's not, you know, that particular about food and taste and, you know, some people are really like, it has to taste amazing. Other people are like, well, someone with really low standards, nice. Why did you, yeah, I think it's fine, but I wouldn't be rushing out to bite myself. I think nutritionally it's all right. What I would say is this is where frozen is better than fresh, because the thing about a lot of the frozen meals is that they're snapped frozen. So they retain a lot of quality. So their, Ed and Marme, it doesn't look so brown and mushy. It's often looking a lot cleaner, like a lot brighter. It actually retains a lot more if you don't overcook it. And people always think fresh is better. Well, fresh is better if you're doing it at home, but not if it's sat in the supermarket production line for a week before you get it. So I'm a bit like, actually, if you're going to have these meals, I think in a lot of instances, you better have the frozen ones. I actually quite like the woolly's fresh one. There's a prosciutto chicken, there's a salmon, there's a steak. I've recommended a new sauce for quite some time. They're not dissimilar price points and they've got cooked veggies in them. So, yeah, I think there's better options. And I don't think you should assume that frozen is inferior nutritionally than fresh, because in that instance, you would argue that the frozen would be better and higher in nutrients, because it's been snapped frozen. Whereas I guarantee you, if something's discolored, it's losing some of the nutrition. So, yeah, I think it's interesting, and it will be interesting to see what survives in supermarket, because I think generally, skews are given three months. And if they're not doing well, they'll be out. So, yeah, I think watch this space, will these are obviously trying to come to the party with better options. And certainly they need to, because if you go overseas and spent time in whole foods in the state, so Marx and Spence are, their quality of pre-made food is beyond what we have here at the moment. And I think we will only improve, because people are looking for more quick and easy options, particularly with the cost of food, because the $12 for 35 grams of protein, it is probably cheaper than buying the chicken breast, the different vegetables. That's probably gonna cost you close to 20, but they've got to taste good for people to invest that kind of money, given that originally frozen meals were five bucks. Now they're sort of eight to 10, and it's getting into that 10 plus dollar people do expect a certain level of standard and quality with it. - Yeah, I mean, I'd rather go to a sandwich shop and get a beautiful fresh sandwich with all of the salads and some lean chicken breast and a bit of avocado. And it's certainly gonna be, it's pretty high protein, maybe not 35 grams, but it's a lot fresher and to me, a lot more appealing and not really $12 either. Oh, I mean, depending on where you go. - I thought it was, the price was quite high for it. I thought it was probably more an $8 product, so they're certainly trading on the protein aspect. 35 grams is good, but yeah, I think that it's not visually so appealing right now, they've got to do a bit of work on it. I don't think a lot of people will be jumping for it, reaching for it. - Yeah, true, true, true. Speaking of jumping and reaching well, what do we need to do that Leanne? - College. - Sheeps out joints. - That was a beautiful and fluid. - As a wrong fluid. - Flexible. - Or there was no question of the week. What is the evidence behind collagen supplementation? Now, I think I've taken collagen for a long time, probably a lot longer than you. I've always been a bit of a fan of it. - I think you look 25, so it's working. Well done. - And I've probably got a 50 tube. (laughing) - But I will say, collagen isn't magic, right? Collagen is not Botoxymat. How much we want it to be, it is not magic. However, there is a reasonable amount of evidence behind specific hydrolyzed collagen peptides and certain strains of them, certain brands of them. And when taken consistently, not sporadically randomly, when you remember twice a week consistently, by that I mean daily, the research has shown that it can actually modestly improve important things like skin elasticity, hydration and wrinkled depth. That's where the bulk of the strongest research lies, but you need to take it daily for about eight to 12 weeks. That's what the research shows. So for skin health, yes, not for fat loss, not for hormones, not for appearing, you got it, it's not Botox, but for skin and joint health, yes, there is some good research. Now, the most studied collagen peptides are called verisol. Now, in some of the research, Charles found about 2.5 grams of verisol collagen a day for eight weeks, reduced eye wrinkle volume and increased different markers of dermal matrix synthesis, including pro collagen type one and elastom. Now, it also, there was another study that found that verisol bovine collagen in women between the ages of 35 and 55, found that 2.5 grams of collagen daily improved wrinkle volume, skin elasticity and hydration after eight weeks. So there are some systematic reviews that generally show that hydrolyzed collagen and the bulk of the research has been done on a strain called verisol, V-E-R-I-S-O-L. Like I said, helps with skin hydration, elasticity and some fine lines and wrinkles, but the effect is modest and some of the studies are on the smaller side. That is important to know. So do I like collagen overall? Yes, it adds pros in into the diet. If you're looking at it from a joint health perspective, you need more. So for all of us on that skin elasticity perspective, you're looking at 2.5 to 5 grams a day from a joint health perspective, you're looking at 10 to 15 grams a day. Now, there has been some chatter online that like a marine collagen is superior. The research does not show that. I personally prefer bovine collagen, but if you're not someone who eats meat or something, then marine collagen might be a better option for you, but it is not any better. It's just like people say that vegan protein is better than weight. It's actually not. The research shows us the opposite way protein is actually better than vegan protein. So if you were going to do it, I would say you need to do it daily. You need to take it for eight to 12 weeks, take some photos, see if it makes a difference, try to find a brand that uses verisol because that is the most research collagen peptide out there. A lot of brands talk a big game. They charge a hell of a lot of money. They have beautiful models modeling for them, but really we're looking at the evidence and where the science actually lies. And as I said, if you're going to take it when you remember sporotically, when you feel like half a dose here, half a dose there, you're probably not going to get the best results because the research really does show 2.5 to 5 grams a day for eight to 12 weeks using if you can verisol, which is a trademark collagen peptide. So that is exactly what we did. When we formulated our design by digestion, we renewed collagen. We used five grams in a serve of verisol collagen. We manufactured it in Australia. We're bound by very tight TGA regulations. It doesn't come out of China. Like a lot of different supplement brands do. And we used that verisol collagen as well. So if you want to try it, there is some research behind collagen. And it also adds to your overall protein intake for the day. So scoop of our design by digestion, we knew collagen actually adds about 5 grams of protein to your day as well or so. Numerous benefits. whether or not you want to try it is entirely up to you, but if you are looking at it from a joint health perspective, I double the dose and do 10 grams a day. What do you think? I think that definitely when you're getting into your 40s and 50s and you start to notice that knee pain, it's worth a try because that can be debilitating and there is evidence for it, but it's like anything, it's about the consistency and doing it in the right way. And my collagen uses love-ish, you know, they're deeply committed to it. So yeah, it's like all supplementation, it's a personal choice, but we can relate the science. And I also think it's important, I've noticed on social media a few doctors hopping on a bandwagon about collagen supplementation. And I think you've also got to keep in mind where you're getting your positioning from because it's like with HRT. If you see a doctor who's deeply against HRT or supplements, that's the message they send. And that's also a personal position as opposed to reporting the science. And that's what we will do here at the nutrition couch. We're not saying that superlating collagen is like Botox and going to make you look 20 years younger, which I think some brands do allude to in their marketing and they're off their brands by people. They're the faceless brands who's making them. So I think with supplements, you want to make sure you're getting it from someone qualified to be formulating, which is why we created a number of dieticians. But I think just be wary when you get haters, you know, doctors saying, no, evidence shouldn't be having it. And I look at some of the doctors and I think you don't even wear makeup. So you're not using or promoting supplements ever. And as such, you're putting your personal opinion on things. And my position always on supplements, it's a personal choice. I can tell you what I think has evidence behind it. I'll tell you what I take and why. But then I let my clients go and make an informed decision themselves. Whereas I think when you get experts or professionals telling people what they think they shouldn't do, I'm always a bit wary because it's like, you know, what political party do you go for? You're bringing your personal opinion on it versus actually just reporting the science and letting people make an informed choice. So yeah, if you're watching a doctor who clearly isn't about anti-aging in her presentation, she's probably not the person to be giving commentary about, you know, college and supplementation for whatever purpose. Because you're right, particularly when it comes to joint health, there is evidence for it and has been for many, many years. And as such, we have used it with athletes, etc. for a long time in their joint rehab and recovery in a different context. And can I also say that just because a brand charges a heck of a lot of money, like I've seen college in 1890 dollars, it doesn't mean it's better. As I said, if you actually look at the clinical research, Verisol is the best most research studies strain of college in. And a lot of these brands aren't even using that and they're charging 90 dollars that designed by dietitians. We want the best quality research and we want fair prices all year round. We don't inflate our prices to constantly go on 30 or 40% off. That's just not what we do. I like to think we have integrity. So you don't like some other brands. Well, we don't, yeah, we don't overcharge for the similar, you know, we charge what we need to charge as a business, but we don't double it just to make extra profit, which is what you see all the time with creatin. And with collagen, which makes us very angry and the hot chocolates I've spoken about, the 80 dollar hot chocolate, that's a bombent of all. You know, if ex-impleances and models are selling double the active ingredient, it's dodgy as. And I think it is good to be aware of that because if you want, it's like when you go to the chemist and you're looking at the active molecule in the allergy med, you know, don't pay more for a brand name if it's the same active ingredient. And that's the same thing with supplements. Just be biobie wet because you can waste a lot of money. Yeah, 100%. And if we're using the best quality available strains of collagen and packing and, you know, actually manufacturing it in Australia was most brands are manufacturing straight out of China. And we can do our collagen for $37 a bag. You don't need to be paying $90 dollars when some of these celebrity brands are charging. You're not getting anything better. I was looking at creatin in, I had to do a review article for good food. And I had to do creatin in the supermarket. So I actually went online to look at all the different brands because I wanted to report sick German creatin for the pure option. And none of the mainstream brands in supermarket were marketing on German source creatin, which means it's all Chinese. So that's also what's going on in the background. Yeah, 100%. All right, well, little supplement chitchat for our listeners, but that brings us to the end of another episode of the nutrition catch. And like we said, if you know that your diet needs a little bit of extra protein or creatin or you'd like to trial some collagen, go and check out our scientifically formulated range of supplements that are designed by dietitians.com. Thank you for listening and we will catch you in next week's podcast. You will have a great week.