Why You Should Care About What's Happening in Gary, IN

(upbeat music) - Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Esomacali podcast. I'm your host, Esomacali. We joined once again by our regular co-host, producer, Michael, we happy to have, I can never say happy because maybe you're not. Maybe this is a Freudian slip. - We're happy to have you on the podcast. - I'm happy to be here. It's great to be back. - And we're happy to have Malcolm Foley again. He's up for those of you who are watching on YouTube. He's up his icon, I see some more iconography. We're slowly bringing you in to the Anglican folds. - It is even yesterday. - Come on, come on. - What if he gave you this to the East? And he actually just becomes Eastern Orthodox. - Oh, that'll be sad. But oh, oh, there's some big news though. I almost forgot, hold up for a second. We can do this, hold up for a second. Got to grab something. - Oh my gosh. - Yeah, though this is wonderful. - We can pause this part where I kind of get it, ready? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - We have like over half a million downloads. - We're over 800,000 dollars. - Yeah, so we're nearing a million downloads on the podcast. - Let's go. - And so I thought it'd be nice for me on the 100th episode to do something nice for. - You've got something. - You've been on like 98 or 99th episode. - I'm like 88th, yeah. - And so I got a gift for you. - Oh. - Here it goes. - Wow. - This is Andy, this is called Isaiah Johnson in the big game. For say, wherever you buy books. - Buy, buy, who's that by? - It's by a guy named Esomakali, and I'm giving it to you, to give to your children. And anybody else who wants to celebrate a 100th episode by buying a book. Also, I have this memoir that I'm getting for you called How far to the Promised Land. It was actually named one of the top 10 nonfiction books. - It was? - I know, nobody knows this. - The top 10 nonfiction books of 2023. And it was named Religion Publish Week. Somebody said it was good. - Someone said it was good. - I can't get all of this stuff out. - Dozens of people. - Dozens of people. - Dozens of people. - Dozens of people. - So you can now, you can also buy one. But I'm giving you one for free. - Wow. - Yeah, and maybe, and maybe, and this is just another book. So anyways, link's in the show notes. - Yeah, link's in the show notes. - So congratulations. - Wow, thank you, Sal. - I'm gonna make sure that next time I see you, I'll give you one too. - What a way to celebrate, Eric, 100th? - By promoting your side gig. - What do you have for me though? - I have my patients. - I've produced a hundred episodes. - A hundred episodes. - These are my family podcasts. - They said we wouldn't make it. We started at the bottom. We're still near the bottom, but we're still here. - We were on that. - We're almost there. - But here, I want to make sure on our 100th episode that we started with the heart-hitting topics first. Let's show them that we are mature, upstanding Christian podcast. What do we want to talk about first? - We're gonna talk about peacocks. - Okay, peacocks. Okay, what do we do now? - And there is this incident in California recently of an attack on a peacock in the neighborhood. And at first, it sounds horrible. And then we're gonna actually play the video here of the news report. And we're gonna kind of see, are you on team peacock or not on team peacock? - Oh, a team meal, man. - Yeah, well, go ahead, let's listen to it. - Let's see, these are the heart-hitting topics that we want to know. Let's listen to this. I'm locked in. - Two cruel attacks on a popular Pasadena peacock caught on camera. - I saw him get hit with the club and it was horrible. - The culprit, the mailman. The incident happened Tuesday afternoon on Mohawk Street. The white peacock called Sugar by Sun is well known for his beauty and his prickly personality. - Okay, paid attention here, 'cause at first, it seems like, man. - A white peacock. - A white peacock. - That's white peacock. - It's not white peacock. - So then the news report goes on to talk about, I mean, the mailman did get pretty violent with this peacock, but it ends with this quote. I just wanted us to listen to by another neighbor neighbor. - There are times when we've seen him chase the mailman and I understand, but you can't just throw rocks and hit with sticks. - I don't know, maybe you can. (laughing) If you're a mailman and a peacock is chasing you every day, weeks and weeks and weeks and the whole neighborhood knows, maybe there comes a time where it's okay to throw a stick or two at the peacock. - Can I add another part? 'Cause we're gonna get killed for this. Team peacock is probably not the other way. - 100 episodes tomorrow. - I think there's a racial component to this. 'Cause I couldn't tell, but on the grainy footage, it looks like the mailman is black. I can't confirm it's ethnicity, but you do have the black mailman coming at the all-white peacock who's chasing people around the neighborhood. - Come on, though. - And so I feel like this, when I hit the peacock with a stick, I'm not gonna hit the peacock. I'm gonna maybe try to avoid the peacock, maybe you don't get your mail that day, but I don't know if I'm gonna attack the peacock. Malcolm, if you're the mailman, and it's on site every time you and the peacock come, at some point, are you gonna get out of the peacock or are you gonna be merciful? You're a pacifist. - The animal, I am a pacifist, but the animal kingdom needs to recognize that it's a typical creation. - You know what, that was not like. - Not, I demand. - Affair, and not just the animal kingdom. There's this weird trend right now where it seems like people in general like animals better than people. - Yes. - Uh-huh. - And we kind of prioritize, and like even like, - And we think that's cool. - And we think that's cool. - It's like, it's normal. - And like people will complain night and day about babies on airplanes, but a puppy on an airplane? It's wonderful, amazing, so cute. - See, now you see there's something that's actually got to me taking this slightly more seriously than like saying the peak I can get it whatever he wants to. But there is a significant amount of movies. I'm thinking of like John Wick, I'm thinking about Supergirl, and there's one going on with. - Airbud? - Air, I mean, not airbud. I was actually thinking about, there's one with Brad Pitt that's coming out. And there's a lot of movies where like the person isn't trying to save the world. They're trying to save their dog. And it feels like we're at this point, where there's so few things that we all can agree on, that what is it that can potentially motivate the actions of a superhero? It's actually a dog. Or what leads to three and entire universe, universe spanning of revenge, it all begins with the abuse of a dog. I was actually watching an Anne Hathaway interview, and she said that, I don't this rarely disagree. Any movie where the dog dies, she goes, she automatically rated R. It's like, dog death is still emotionally traumatized and the people that any movie that should be rated R. So I do believe there is this, and I mean, I was in Cali. Shout out to Cali. I was in Cali last week, and I saw a significant number of people who would walk their dog for a little bit, and then put their dog in like the little stroller to rest the dog. And so there is, there is. - Malcolm. - Malcolm, do you have a dog? - I have a stroller. - Scotty, when Scotty, when Scotty. - I'm going to have a pet. - When Scotty can't walk any more, I'm definitely going to take Scotty, I just so he can see the sun. So he, and we let him around. I like Scotty, even when we used this run around here and enjoy life. So I do believe in other words, there is somebody to the animal kingdom, but I do believe that we should put humans above the animal kingdom. That's my freezing hot day. So your team, your team, mailman? - I mean, I think the mailman went too far. I think he went too far, but let's maybe. - Kind of a break. He probably dealt with that peacock so many, like weeks and weeks and weeks, eventually a man snaps, you know? (laughing) - Man can only take too much from a white peacock, 'cause on top. (laughing) - We're so canceled. - Yeah, it was a good run. - It was a good one. - Yeah, exactly. - You did that on a nice, even number. - What's our next door? - Oh gosh, well, in a. - So we got a pivot here. - And I can, oh, you go for it, sorry. - Yeah, it's me. - It's you. So speaking of, speaking of things that are valuable, there was an Atlantic article titled, "The Gun Lobby's Most Seneca Move Yet." And it is, it's about a study that Stanford University researchers did, where they found that after fatal school shootings, pro-gun packs dramatically increase their contributions to their preferred U.S. house candidates in that when those races were competitive. Basically what that means is, when there's a shooting, pro-gun advocate money starts flowing into. - That district. - Starts flowing into public school shootings. - Yes. - Yes, and it's only, and when they did this research, which was over, they gathered data from 2000 to 2024. Those shifts did not happen after other incidents of mass gun violence or after non-fatal school shootings, only when children were killed in schools. So I always think about the implications of that, that when children are killed, pro-gun folks are basically saying, don't let this stop people from buying it. - Buying guns. - No, it actually, it's really saying something, even darker than that. It's encouraged more people to buy guns, specifically when children are killed. But go ahead, you saw you wanted to say, you were gonna come in and say, it's saying something. - I was trying to, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but what is actually going on is more nefarious than that, because we need to keep in our mind, 'cause there's a lot of things that happens when there's a school shooting. One of the things that we hear repeatedly is that this is not the time to turn this into a political thing. - Also sure. - This is the time for thoughts and prayers, not politics. We'll get to the politics later. - There's plenty of saying something different. - What I'm saying to you is, well, while they're having that statement, they're releasing this and like, and they say quit playing politics with these kids alive, even if we were there time and time again, there's also a team that's having a meeting that is saying, hey, this shooting just happened in this location. What does our, what is the relative vulnerability of our candidate and what do we need to do to fix it? In other words, they're engaging in political activism and viewing the particular shooting as a political liability and they're directing funds. I think there's a couple of examples of one of them. - Here's a quote, yeah. - Well, I go, I mean, just a quick quote from one of the authors. So after school shootings where children died, pro-gun contributions to candidates in competitive congressional districts increased on average by more than 30%. But when that shooting occurred within two months of an election, contributions surged by 2,820%. The author says the data shows that the gun lobby saves its political firepower for the moments when public grief is greatest and lawmakers are under the most pressure to act. Basically, it's in, it's in tension. I mean, all this is very, very, very intentional. - So, go ahead. - Imagine, so this is a particular claim here if this is accurate. So you're within two months of an election. So these parents are potentially preparing to bury their children in the aftermath of these events. You have to go, I wrote a story on the covenant school shooting that happened in Nashville. And there was another story that I can never get published that dealt with like some of the families and their responses and what is it actually meant. In these kids or in theory, they're going through all of these things. And at the moment, this is happening. Someone is analyzing the political liability of a candidate and saying, 'cause I think there was one incident from $1,000 donation to like a $50,000 donation. - That's right, remember. - Yeah, in November of 2013, the 17 year old senior was killed at a high school in a suburb of Denver before the shooting, the pro gun pack contribution had been $1,000. Afterward, it went up to $49,470. - Now, this is going to come up again. And so I don't want to, we couldn't get the Gary Indian in a minute. But I want to say something about structural injustice and money and why this is important for us as Christians. What we're seeing here is not the idea that people are able to say, okay, this gun, this mass shooting has occurred. What do I think about this? And how do I make a decision based upon this? And in which people are able to analyze the arguments and make a decision. You have, because of disproportionate economic power, people who are able to flood the zone with advertising and money and funding. And so what is happening is not the world of the people, but the ability of people with wealth to be able to buy and influence elections. The exact same thing happened when you have like these people like Elon Musk, who are donating millions and millions and millions of dollars to these campaigns. And the only, what that gets to then is how money can corrupt the economic system. And that's actually in our beloved Bible, because it says there's a particular statement in Deuteronomy, I think it's Deuteronomy Exodus. They speak about judges not taking bribes because bribes pervert justice. So I'm not saying that the judges are being brought, but I am saying that what the Bible is aware of is the ways in which economics began to impact people's decision making and people with economic power able to buy an election, will buy influence. And the Bible speaks against that. And what we see here is the purchase of influence, Malcolm. - Yeah, well, and I mean, and it's important for us to also remember the fact that there are so many things that we can't do because people are financially invested in us not doing them. So as an easy example that may be slightly less volatile, but why does our tax system look the way that it does when we think about how we file our taxes every year? Well, part of it is because there are companies like Intuit and others that lobby so that it costs people to pay their taxes. Like all, there are these just massive lobbies of money that keep us from doing the things that we need to do. - Right, I think it's a reminder for all of us that so much of the public discourse around these hot button issues, it's not actually engaged in good faith. There are the powers that be those with money, the lobbyists, the corporations themselves who are actively trying to essentially distract all of us from trying to solve the problem because solving the problem might cost them money on their bottom line and they don't want that. And it's just because I'm trying to even approach this from the sense of someone who is pro-second amendment and loves their guns and it's like, to that person, I want to show them this article and say, listen, I'm not saying most people who want gun restrictions are not saying get rid of all the guns completely. They're just saying, I know, but like, could we look at the, I'll never forget Sandy Hook and how atrocious, horrific it was, and even the writer of this article for the Atlantic details having to walk through the halls of those schools and seeing the dead children and the blood on the walls and describing it as the worst day of his life. And it's like, how does that not motivate us to do some just an ounce of change, to at least try to fix the problem and the reason why is because while fixing the problem would cost the gun companies money and their sock and so they throw money at the problem so that we just yell at our relatives on Facebook rather than holding our politicians accountable. - And I want to say this. I think that most all surveys that are done on this issue show that Americans are in favor of more gun control, especially relates to automatic and rapid fire weapons. And so we have something that the majority of American people want, but it's a name but a pass. I'll tell you a little bit about how this impacts me personally. I'll try to keep this story relatively brief. To be black in America and to kind of walk around in a country that is armed requires me to always be doing a kind of moral calculus. Okay, someone says something to me, someone does something to me, and I'm in this situation, and I'm wondering if I respond, not that I'm a violent, probably pass it is basically by nature, but if I respond even aggressively, what does this person, what are they armed with and how might that impact my safety? I'm doing the like gun calculus is at what point in any of these incidents spiral out of control, the same is actually true with any encounter with the officers, the presence of the gun raises the stakes. I want to tell you about two times that happened when I was in the UK, one personal, one with the police. I was leaving a, I was walking home one day and there was a guy on the other side of the street who had coming out of the bar and he had drank a lot and he delivered a racial slur. He yelled one to me across the street. And I looked at him and he looked at me. And the thought that I had is, I know he's not armed. And I think he looked at me and I looked at him, but he did some cross-bending for the analysis of engaging with this black man, and he kind of sobered up and walked away. And I was like, oh, that can politically change, now I'm not saying he couldn't have the night, but that can politically change the dynamic when I realized that person across the street could not easily just shoot me and say another thing. Another thing to happen was related to someone who's having a mental health episode. I saw it when I was once again, I was meandering around Scotland and there's a person having a mental health episode. And I watched the police spend about in 45 minutes maybe an hour talking this person down to the place to where they got them into the car. And I was so surprised by this, I was seeing police officers in America do so many things, they're so many different. And I asked the cop, I was like, oh, 'cause they didn't have guns. I was like, oh, how did this happen? And I don't know this is true, but it's what he says. Oh, we don't come armed. We have like a separate set of police, the gun police who we call when things get hairy. So they got like regular cops and like gun cops. And so I was like, oh, that means that each incident that's happening in Scotland, the first level is not that kind of escalation. And so I do think that the American obsession with guns and violence and our inability to regulate guns and violence has not just the cost and the lives of people, but the culture that it creates where at any moment these things can turn fatal. And so I think that part of our rejection of violence as Christians in the way of Jesus is to not participate in a culture that assumes that the turning to violence is a good way to solve problems. - I mean, isn't this not exactly a Paul, I mean, not exactly a Paul meant, But like I am reminded of like all things are happening. permissible, but not all things are beneficial, like when does it get to the point for Americans to realize, listen, I want the second amendment and I think I should have it and I like guns and this, that the other, but if it repeatedly and consistently comes at the cost of so many lives, including our children, is it time to put aside that this benefit, this right that I think I have for the sake of the innocent lives that are being lost or more, more important you know, equally importantly, make the argument. If you can actually win the election without, you know, raising the pay by 300, 300, 300 percent, make the argument, don't buy persuasion and don't, don't rule and fear. And so what I, what this is when I'm talking about, I want to talk about like the broken, it's about political system. I just want us to be able to make an argument, like actually sit there and have to defend the position of this is the, this is the thing that necessarily don't, don't buy it. Malcolm is sure moment, Malcolm in the middle, you have the last word. Our, our cultural violence boils down to, it's, I'm fascinated by the, by the ways in which these, these situations boil down to a particular vice and our, and our cultural violence boils down to anger. Like we just have, we, we, we have a, we have a culture that broadly does not, does not know how to actually address anger and paired with, and, and, and that also manifests itself in a profound, in, in a profound impatience. Um, I think it like, I don't, the reason why I, why I don't honk at folks in Texas, is not just because everybody's armed. That's like, that's, that is, that is a good reason, not to honk at Texas, but, but also like, it's because, you know, it's because I try to put in significant working, cultivating my own patience. Um, and, and in many ways, um, the reason why we, I think many of us are so, in many ways, comfortable with violence, because that's why we, in many ways, a lot of it to continue, uh, is because we have a, we, we have a lot of unprocessed anger. Um, and that's something that, I think it's just something that, that most of us have to, have to, have to deal with. As the former athlete who spent years running into people, and for that reason, I have a bad back. I understand the importance of having a decent bed, and I know the difference between waking up with a back ache and waking up feeling rested and refreshed. For that reason, I love supporting Brooklyn bedding. They take care and the design and assembly of every single mattress, each one of them is made handy United States. No middleman, no gimmick, just top tier quality prices that everybody can afford and can lead to and I could speak from experience a better night's sleep. Go to Brooklyn bedding.com and use my promo code Esau to check out to get 30% off site wide as a part of the July flash sale. That's Brooklyn bedding.com promo code Esau for 30% off site wide. This is the limited time offer not available anywhere else. Brooklyn bedding.com promo code Esau. We're actually going to talk about unprocessing or later on in the show. So it was a good segue except it's not our next story. Yeah, yeah, but the good teaser. We're going to switch over to Gary, Indiana now. Anyone who's been in the Chicago land area, and that kind of includes Gary, has known this summer has been full of storms. We've had a couple different tornado warnings here in Wheaton, even where like the sirens went off. Did you know that now because of global warming and climate change that tornado alley has moved from like Kansas over to Illinois and we had 200 tornadoes. It's because now it's here. It's Illinois and Indiana. We had over 200 tornadoes and the only other state to go beyond that number to get to 200 is actually Texas. So we're now becoming we've now become the center of these these kinds of massive storms. So go ahead. So it's been crazy. So Gary and Indiana has been hit very hard and reports are now coming out that much, not much, but a good portion of the city is still without power after the latest storm that happened on August 11th. There are still about 37,000 people who are without power at this time and that this has happened a few times over the summer where the Gary has gone a long time with many of its residents without power. Why this is a big deal and not some random story is you have to know the makeup of Gary. Gary is made up of about 69,000 people. 55,000 of which are black. And so it is and it's a poverty rate for Indiana is about 12%. And so Gary we see is actually a pretty under-resourced area. It's an area with a large population of black Americans and it seems a little suspicious Esau that when we were in Wheaton and the big storm went through and there's trees down everywhere within a few days. Everyone had power back and yet Gary is now going on about two weeks without power. But also it goes it goes beyond that. I want to say two things. One, it relates to some of our national disinvestment in things like FEMA and the general there's a couple of things like one of them is that science doesn't care whether or not you agree with it. And so when weather patterns change related to climate change and communities that are not prepared to deal with those change are disproportionately impacted it means that the long tail of once again our cultural fights land and often the poorest communities. The second thing so that's the first part it's like the scientific issue. The second issue is once again the government cutting a funding cause these things are seen as a purpose and you begin to see oh there's a link between the cutting funding to helping emergencies and the people who suffer the most in emergencies. The third thing if it's okay I want to say a little bit about how Gary got poor. Is that okay can I talk about how Gary got poor? Please. One of the reasons why Gary struggles economically. This goes back to the 1960s and I probably will I'll try to keep this relatively brief but one of the first black mayors elected on a major city was the guy named Richard Howell. Richard Hatcher I could say good. One of the first black mayors elected of a major US city was the guy named Richard Hatcher. And when this election happened in the 1960s and there's a lot of anxiety related to white residents and white many white businesses it led to some white flight. Another thing is happening around the same time is that the steel industry is declining that also leads to white flight. And so you have the closing of the major steel industry that up the undergraduate Gary. You had the election of black you had the election of black mayors and you had this tremendous flight from the community that that disrupts the property base. Another thing that was happening around the same time is a significant portion of Gary was red line which means can I talk about red line? I feel like I don't want to go too far. We should understand this. So back in the day when more mortgage companies will make a decision as to what place were worthy of investment and what places weren't. There were four basic categories. Green. This is the only the best place to invest. Blue, it's not the best for steel desirable. Yellow was kind of declining and red meant hazardous. And so they automatically put the black communities in red in the red category meaning that companies disinvested. And so there was an economic disinvestment from these black communities. So you add the white flight to the fact that many of these black communities were red line and as black people moved into white communities as the white people left the red lining continue to expand such that much of Indiana of Gary within disinvested. And so you have the economic disinvestment often rooted in race and discrimination that disrupts the economic flourishing of this community leading to being poor and under resources which means a lot of the physical structures the things that you do to upkeep which relies upon taxes are now done away with. So now obviously the storm wasn't racist. The storm didn't say let me go and hit the black people. But if you're in a place that has been economically disinvested because of historical and structural racism the other people are going to be impacted worse which means that Gary is now suffering not because of the current necessarily the current act of racial animus of a particular person but because of the long history of racism. So we talk about structural racism Gary Indiana and the reason is particularly dealing with these things are related. It's when we do talk about race because there's a fear of wokeness we're talking we get kind of pushed to the side. So I do believe there are ongoing reasons why we're afraid to be to bring in the discussion of race and Gary but I don't think it's politically relevant Malcolm. Yeah. Ruth Wilson Gilmore defines defines racism as a as as the state sanctioned or extra legal production and exploitation of group differentiated vulnerability to to premature death. Basically what that means. Wait did you have a number of? No, no I just but but I've I've I almost forgot. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. No one else can go now. Come yourself. It's a good definition but one of the reasons why why I like it is because it draws out it draws out vulnerability like what what racism does is it is is is not only does it place people into groups but the but the evil is that it makes these it makes folks more vulnerable to premature death. So it kills folks but it but it but it but it also but it also just makes people more more vulnerable to that death and so when so when so when we think about this this this systemic disdisinvestment like what that what that isn't and this is why even I mean whenever I talk about race I want us to remember the stakes of the conversation like this is not just about us like thinking about each other differently. Yes, it is that, but ultimately, what we're dealing with are things that profoundly affect people's lives. When you remove from a community the resources that they need in order to function, you kill folks. Like when you keep folks from getting the education that they need, you kill them. When you remove their ability to get clean water, electricity, health care, all those things are things that people need in order to survive. And when you place somebody into a group where then you can say, oh, well, we're going to restrict their access to housing, or all these things that are basic human needs. When you do that, what you're doing is you're building up this vulnerability to premature death. And Gilmore is a geographer. And so the way that the way that human populations gather and stuff like all of those material questions, that's what we're talking about when we're talking about issues of race, I can't imagine. I think about the fact that when Texas had, it's like the snow apocalypse back in, I think, it was 2021. And that was the longest that our house had ever been out of power. I mean, we were out for five or six days. And it was also like below zero. And so we had to find somewhere else to be. And we had a community of folks who took us in at that time. But if your entire community has had those resources stripped from them such that when you're in that situation, you have nowhere to go, that's a situation of death. There were food spoils, like all of that is extremely dire. I think it's been something like 12 days. And one of the things that we talk about, the people need to understand is if you create, like you said, if you put all these people into a particular community because of the restriction of the ability to have accessible housing, yes, if the economic downturn happens in Gary, and white families have relationships and connections outside of that community, there's some place for them to go. But if you have nowhere to go, which is one of the reasons why some of the poor people in Gary stayed, is there was nowhere to go. And so you have a situation, as you just said, of people who are stuck in a place. And 12 days at the start of school, without any power, it feels like very low-hanging fruit to be able to say, can you imagine this happened in Malibu or Santa Monica, where there was a wealthy all-white community that was used to having things taken care of? And the fact that it wasn't national news, that this was actually raised, it became stories because actually I've seen some black pastors talk about it and black influencers. But it wasn't something that was like an ongoing story every day in the newspaper, but how did it happen in New York City? It would've been like, "Mondami can't get power on "democratic socialism is the worst "and they do a day-by-day saga." But because they're black and they're poor, they can often be safely ignored. And that's one of the other privileges that you get when you are the majority culture, you have the privilege of attention. And we get the poor sometimes, get the consequence of benign neglect. That it is politically and, I guess, socially admissible to simply ignore long-term sufferings of black and brown people. - I mean, the story is tragic. I think though what the benefit of these stories is that, I think they are the most helpful examples of the existence of systemic racism. And what I mean by that is, speaking as the white guy on the podcast, growing up in a very, I know it's surprising. - We let 'em back on. - Sometimes we do. - Growing up in a very white, rural community, and I remember thinking in high school or college, early adulthood of like, "But I'm not racist. "Like, why are you making me feel like this isn't my fault, "what's going on?" And it wasn't until like reading stories, like Eddie Gloud's book, Democracy in Black, of just like learning the history of like, "Oh, I get it. "It's not that we're saying comment is racist, "but we're saying due to generations and decades "and centuries of the way our system was set up, "the way that laws were created, the disadvantage." I mean, it's like, could you imagine playing monopoly? I know, I don't have to explain systemic racism to both of you. - No, go for it. - But could you imagine, could you imagine playing monopoly? And halfway through after you've collected a lot of money, a lot of houses, a lot of hotels, then saying, "All right, Malcolm, "you come play monopoly with me." And then like Malcolm, why can't you compete? Why are you constantly going bankrupt? Well, it's because he didn't get to play the game for the first half. And so let me push one thought, and then yes. - Yeah, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. - For those in our audience who like, get it. I'm guessing we're preaching to the choir to the majority of our audience. But if you want to like engage in good conversations to your family members who don't see this topic the way that you do, sending them little videos or articles about their microaggressions or trying to convince them, they're secretly racist and they don't know it. I don't think that's gonna move the needle. But walking through some of the history and some of these examples, I think like Esau's book, I know, now for sale anywhere that you can buy an Amazon. But I think like it's another learning, hearing the stories of African-Americans and learning about what they went through and the way the system was stacked up against them. To me, it was the most persuasive and convincing to kind of open my eyes to the systemic racism that exists in the country. - So here's the thing, and I'm glad that you did that. And that was very nice of you. So I don't wanna, I don't wanna step on what you just said. But it is, it is always amazing to me what kind of evidence is persuasive and what kind of evidence isn't persuasive. Because I can't help but like, I feel like there's almost as reparations like call for a writing of wrongs related to like COVID. And the reason this may seem like it's unrelated. But like, people lost their jobs because they didn't take the vaccine. And you know, or people lost their job during like the racial upheavals of 2020. And we need to go back and we need to do a truth in the reconciliation committee. Did you do anything, and we need to help these people in restore what was taken away from them. And so like the idea that it was a kind of system wide group of people who were victims of discrimination, who now need a renumeration can just be asserted. People go, oh yeah, that's completely true. But when it comes to black people, it feels like the bar is so high that we can't really ask the question of, well, are there any long-term historical context that might explain the under-resourcing of Gary? And how might understanding that history make us be willing to not just hand out money to people, but to say it's worthy of investing extra resources to give this community opportunity for us. But we want to go on to our last topic with our last 10 minutes. - Go ahead. - No, no, no, my brief comment. This is just a way to also sharpen the monopoly metaphor. It's not even so much that people have time to build wealth and then you invite people into the game. It's that everybody was in the game at the beginning. It's just that the first half of the game was you actively taking stuff. (laughing) They're like the history of race is a history of theft. Like that's what, that's the purpose of that category. It's economic exploitation and theft. - Oh. - And so, and so, and so I'm thinking about like actually, for me in order to amass this for, amass these resources for myself, I will take from you what you need. And so, and so, and so if we want to be, if we want to build communities that resist that, at a root, we have to be committed to everyone having what they, everyone having what they need, just period. - Okay. - Because the fact of the matter is, is that the history that we're looking at as a history of theft. - Okay, I'm gonna ask you this last question. Well, what if the peacock deserved it? - Mm. (laughing) - I was just gonna say, "I'm on the side of the brothers." (laughing) - Malcolm, I was just gonna say how surprised that my metaphor for systemic racism needed sharpening by you, but I thought I had it, but I appreciate-- (laughing) - I love you, Mike. What's our last story? - All right, last story. We're gonna talk about conflict. This is good, this is appropriate. Are you familiar with Priya Parker? - Yeah. - Okay, so she wrote the book The Art of Gathering. It's a great book, I love Priya Parker. And it was about the importance of community gathering together, trying to even lower the bar on like, sometimes we think, well, in order to have people over, we gotta clean the house like the queen is coming over and make a five-course meal. And she emphasized the importance of just gathering together with friends. - Oh, we can, we can hang out more. - Yeah, you wanna come over? - Laura? - You know, just whenever, any night. - I'm late every night until 2027. - Okay. - All right, well, maybe we should read this book together. - Okay, the latest book is called The Art of Fighting. And it's looking at the importance of having conflict in relationships. And she talks a little bit about unhealthy peace. And it's this idea that, oh, you have peace in the relationship, but it's actually because you're avoiding the tension and the conflict between you. And so it's peace, but it's an unhealthy peace. So what I wanted the three of us, I know we're running out of time here. I thought it could be interesting to not necessarily talk about conflict in our marriages. I think we've kind of talked about that before. And of course, we never have conflict in our marriage. - Perfect. - We were perfect. - I'm writing a poetry right now. - Exactly, but I was reflecting on my own kind of interpersonal relationships. And I was like, oh, when it comes to my friends, I'm pretty conflict avoidant. I don't like a dress. I just would. rather kind of let things go, if a friend annoys me or hurts me, what about you all? Do you, how do you address conflict with some of your friendships? - Yeah, I think it depends. And this is the thing, one of the, one of the really good. It's a great article, but one of the good insights of it is that, like you have conflict with the people that you love, like whether or not you want to have conflict with somebody is also an indication of how much you actually do love them. Because like, I was just thinking, I was just thinking and talking about this this morning. If somebody offends me and I'm just like, oh, I don't care, I'll just move on, like that's a particular response. And then, but then me thinking, no, like I really do need to work it through with this person, like that's a commitment. I think about, and I know he said, we weren't gonna talk about our wives, but when I first started dating my wife, like there's just two weeks into us, into us dating. And we had some kind of conflict. And I was, and I was gonna be like, yeah, it's final, we don't even have to deal with that. And essentially, like the Lord convinced me. He's like, no, actually, like work this out with her. And I was like, why? Like, I don't know how to work this stuff out with, any other dating relationships or whatever. And basically the way I was like, 'cause you're gonna be doing this for the rest of your life. - Oh, tie it up. - And they got right, and I'm like, oh, oh! So like, I told Desray this after we got married, that basically I knew two weeks into us dating that we were gonna end up getting married. - So you and one of those dudes who was like, God told me we're gonna be together. Like, don't do that, y'all. - No, no, that ain't the line. - No, that would be a scary and manipulative thing to do. But what that indicated to me was, no, like actually working through conflict is one of the ways that you express your love for somebody. And some of my relationships, I mean, I even think about relationships with my siblings and friends where I've been called out my unwillingness to deal with conflict. Like, it like is felt as a lack of affection. Because that's what it is. And so, I mean, I've been challenged kind of recently in those ways, in ways that I've had to repent of. - I would say, like, it's only, this may sound, one of the things that happens when you live a quasi-public life, is that everybody got an opinion in what you ought to do and what you ought not to do. - Speaking of what you ought to say. - After this, I had a little, I got a little less. - And so, for the most part, I ignore folks. (laughing) But it's actually my friends who are the ones who can actually tell me when I'm tripping. And so, in that sense, it is precisely the friends who can, who I trust to tell me the truth about myself. Because I feel like they love me enough to want me to flourish. And they're not just gone. I can't just dismiss them as haters, 'cause I know they actually love me. And I think that what makes, so in other words, true friendship is, you won the right to tell someone the truth. And you won the right to want them to flourish. And so, a lot of times, I remember I was, there was this, when I was getting ready to move somewhere, I think I was getting ready to move here, actually. And I was debating where they're not to take the job. And I was, you know, and sometimes the friends were like, what does God tell people you don't give you the opinion? They just say stuff, right? And a friend of mine, he was like, "Esa, it's okay to actually just choose "the job that's gonna make you happy." Like, suffering ain't a virtue. He said, like, sometimes, you know, you always want to go, what's the hardest thing I could possibly do? 'Cause God is glorified when I'm miserable. And he says, like, you need to fix your theology. You can have a theology of joy, or God can want you to be happy. And I was like, first of all, that hurt. Second of all, that's true. (laughing) And so, to me, that's what friendship is. And a lot of the times, like in a conversation, it is precisely like the muscle memory of saying, I am not afraid when I go into a conversation that the relationship is based on the outcome of this conversation. Now, because I kind of humorous, like if you were friends with me, I'm gonna give you, I'm gonna talk to you directly, but I'm gonna slide it in with the joke. So I'm gonna give you some humor that has a little bit of truth to it. - Yeah. - And so, I am not conflict-avoiding at all, as you can probably tell. - Let's get it. - Let me, wait, this thing. So, wait a minute. You've been avoiding conflict? - Well, so that's stuff that you go home and you can play in your family about me, or you just go and say, that was great. - Oh, no, I go home every day. (laughing) - He saw, it was just wonderful. - Oh, hey, it was so smart. His takes were so good. - Are you avoiding conflict right now? - No. - You saw. - You know what, we are at a time, so we should probably wrap this. No, can I just say real quick, before we do wrap up? I think, maybe, I feel like my generation, and especially younger generations, I'm stereotyping, I don't think they are as quick to lean into conflict like this. I think they're quicker to kind of ghost anything in their life that gets a little conflict-e. And I think, but what you all said was so good. And I think this idea of just like, I want to be someone in my relationships who both is, I'm willing to say the hard thing that needs to be said, but equally important, I want to be willing to receive the hard thing that has to be said to me. 'Cause if you just go around, well, I'm gonna say the really difficult thing, but your ears are closed to receiving similar feedback, you're not gonna make good friendships. - So, can I tell you, I want to do, actually, I wasn't gonna tell the joke, but I'm gonna lock in. 'Cause I actually think there is an important part of this that I know we want, I want to talk about the church for a second. I want to do this relatively quickly. Because they talked about false peace. That you can have a relationship that because it doesn't have any conflict in it, it is not genuine and real. And I think about what does it mean to have that false peace in the church as it relates to issues of the relationship between the gospel and what's happening in the world? And so, one way as a clergy person to avoid any controversy is to say absolutely nothing. And that allows the congregation to construct a picture of the church in their mind that it's attached from reality. And so, one of the things that I say, and we're not, this is not Fox News or MSNBC, MSNBC, but often say one of the gifts that I give to my congregation is the gift of clarity. That they're actually not confused, not about like my particular political leanings, like in my Republican or Democrat, that's not what I'm talking about. But our congregation or churches ought to at least know, does their pastor or their clergy understand how the gospel intersects with the way in which people live their lives? And can we actually get to the place where we're willing to upset people for the sake of helping them grow into the likeness of Jesus? 'Cause some things people aren't gonna learn unless they can front it with it. And I often think about how we talk about being apolitical, like brown first board of education passes. Right? Brown first board of education passes. Communities are in an upboard. Kids are not gonna be going to school with one another for the first time ever. And you're standing in the pool pit and like an all white church or an all black church. Do you not have some pastoral responsibility to like say something, even if it's gonna get you in trouble? If you're sitting here and they're like immigrants who are people or families, and they're wondering, hey, how does my church not what is there like policy on like, I don't know, whatever, particularly, but where are we? And so I do think that a lot of people, especially vulnerable people, suffer under that false piece. And that being willing to not just start conflict for conflicts and not just to like say the thing and say the thing, but to be the kind of community that consistently kind of turns up the moral growth. And one level of that's like the political part. It can also be related to issues that church finances or money or holiness, right? You know, one of the things that's hard to say is like, yeah, man, church is messed up. We've done a lot of bad stuff. We're corrupt in a lot of ways. But God still calls you to follow Him and be obedient to His word and to live a life that glorifies Him. And so I'm not saying that it's like prophetic to always talk about politics. Sometimes you're prophetic to talk about holiness. And the question is, are we willing to imagine this question? What is it that is prophetically challenging to my congregation that is going to in a good way disrupt their peace for the growth of their sanctification? - He saw, I think that is a great way to wrap up our 100th episode. - Yes. - Can I just recap for us on this episode we talked about guns, systemic racism, global warming, interpersonal relationships, church and politics and peacocks. - Yes. - If that is not a typical - These are called a podcast episode, I don't know what is. - Oh, we said it at the same time. Are we best friends? - I think so. - That was beautiful. - We will see you all next week. And if you've not done so, please give us a comment on congratulating us on our 100th episode. - Think of 100 people you know. - Yeah. - And send it to 100 people. - Send the podcast to 100 people. If you send it to 100 people, you will get a gold star. - Yeah. - All right, and if you haven't bought any merch, why don't you go buy some merch? We're going to get all the money to be in the end of the podcast after ducking on capitalism. We'll see you all next week. - The Isle of Macauley Podcasts production of Holypost Media produced by Mike Stalo, Straight Low, if you know, now you know, that it's it by Seth Corvette, like a Corvette music by Rob Nore. Make sure to follow the show wherever you get your podcasts and leave a review so more people can find it. See you next time. I'm out.