Why We Repeat Pain...And How We Break the Cycle | Eva Dalak | S5E14

Speaker 1 You cannot, you cannot abuse someone else without abusing yourself. That's where inner and outer peace collide. And so we went back to the root causes of this tension, and that's the key. And the root causes of this tension, most of the time, are the five wounds of the human soul. It's this feeling of abandonment, rejection, humiliation, betrayal and injustice. Like, look at us, we are living in like the widest wound right now of betrayals and injustice. Speaker 2 Welcome to Women Ending War, the podcast where Palestinian and Israeli women talk about partnerships for peace, real solutions and ideas for crafting a new world. Speaker 1 It's where we express our pain, anger, dreams, creativity and vision, where hope is a conscious choice. Malcolm, Amiram. Salaam. Speaker 2 I'm Ilana Stockman. Thanks for joining us, Eva Habibti Salaam Alaikum. Speaker 1 Ilana alaikum Salaam, here we are again. Speaker 2 Yeah, so nice to see you. How are you? Speaker 1 I'm good, I'm I'm good. I just coming out of a seven days intense immersion and had a really nice weekend in family to rest and I feel like now I'm back to my to myself, but it it was pretty intense. So I I loved to debrief with you. Yeah, tell me we often do that. We often do that. Speaker 2 Yeah, I know. So you were in Greece, right? Yeah. Speaker 1 So I was in Greece, I was in Mani, I was facilitating an embodied conflict and peace mastery with 20 participants from around the world, including Palestine and Israel, several retired peace activists as they refer to themselves. Speaker 2 What does a retired peace activist. Speaker 1 It means that they they stop believing in peace and don't want to do any activism because of the heartbreak. And we were able to get them back because as you know, I always say peace is a capacity. It's not a destination. And as a capacity, we need to make sure that we are taking care of ourselves and are taking care of not only our physical self, our emotional, our spiritual and our mental space. And we had a beautiful, beautiful group and a lot of trauma healing, a lot of presencing and naming. And, you know, just like testing the methodology on other people. And it's, it's always great when you, when you sell your fantasy. You know, I was saying my, my teacher always say it's stupid not to believe in your own fantasy. And my fantasy is that peace is possible. And that's what I sell. I sell the vision that peace is possible and it's available for us here and now. And it's a capacity, It's a capacity that we can build, enhance and straighten in our self and in others in the way we show up. So that was A and embodied proof of that belief. Speaker 2 Wow. So you started out with seeing heartbreak that people were so heartbroken that they originally lost their capacity. Can you tell me a little bit what that looks like? Speaker 1 It looks like a denial. It looks like a withdrawal. It looked like pumped up anger and inability to manage our emotions. It looked like long, long period of silence and isolation, feeling alone, powerless and helpless and really tears on the verge of coming and and and nervous system really dysregulated and and afraid and triggered with the with anything that comes to it are. Speaker 2 You seeing a lot of that now? Speaker 1 I've seen, I see it a lot in different spaces, not only in the spaces that I hold, but also in spaces where I participate and I observe participants and I'm like, wow, it's so interesting to witness and to listen to people's intervention and, and being able to see what behind this intervention and being able to see how the nervous system is so dysregulated and the person is not even aware of how dysregulated they are. And how the blame is really a doorway for a little bit of relief, but also a doorway of lack of accountability and responsibility for the way we're managing our emotions. And so I feel like this, it's really a fine balance of like, how am I taking care of myself while I'm still in the activism of wanting the system to change, or in our case, to collapse and be completely transformed, you know? And how do we show up in a way that supports the field and nurture the field and not polarize it even more? Speaker 2 Wow. Do you, do you feel like things have gotten more intense over the last, I don't know, six months or so because we are now also dealing with Lebanon and Iran and just. Speaker 1 Yeah, I think it what we're dealing with is also just a disbelief that this is still continuing to happen and the deep realization of like, wow, we are witnessing a total overpower, you know, like Israel have taken. It becomes an empire that is just like nothing can stop it in the in the in the perception is like nothing can stop Israel and we're here like witnessing it and have nothing to do. And even when group of people like the flotilla or from around the world, like manage and gather people to go and, you know, break the siege on Gaza and name what is happening, even then it's like they're arrested, they're tortured and dismissed and nothing is happening. Like it sounds. It seems like there's no accountability on the international scene. And at the same time, there's such a lack of information about the real sovereignty and the real power that we have as individual hand in hand, you know? Speaker 2 What is that power? What power do we have as individuals? Speaker 1 You know, I'm going to share one example of this retired peace activist that was completely frozen in his ability to act because he was this person was tortured on both ends, was tortured by Palestinian for his peace activism and was tortured by Israeli for his Palestinian hood. And that person showcased the example of how frozen we have become in our ability to respond. And so your question to your question is like, what can we actually do as individuals? And for me, what we can do as individual is really to collaborate and Co create together an answer to that system of oppression. And the way we're doing it, you're doing it in your own way, Amira is doing it in her own way. I'm doing it in my own way. We're all doing it in our own way. And the understanding that it's not going to take one person doing it, it's going to take all of us doing it, all of us. So even though right now it seems like doesn't really what does it matter? One small retreat, what does it matter? One small podcast, what does it matter? This civilian presence in it seems like nothing is impacting this big empire that is just growing and growing and growing. But if we each take responsibility for our piece, our piece to piece, then all these pieces are going to take 11 big, you know, one big circle building on each other's strength. I mean, Jessica, your partner was with us at the at this immersion and we were building on what she needed to bring to women ending war. And her capacity now are enhanced in her ability to support you. Same with the other participants that I, I don't want to name people, but say each of these persons are really a RIP. They, they have the potential to activate peace in all of their different community. And we had people from the US, Jewish American from the US, we have Jewish from Belgium, we have people from Canada, Palestinian from Canada. We had people from Spain. And each of these people are a peace activator. Now they're going to be able to carry this methodology. And that's really, I think what what Greece Immersion provided, at least for me, is a confirmation that this methodology works, that peace is a capacity. And that if we don't have capacity to continue our work as a peace activist, then we need to stop, dropped our heart, deal with whatever is frozen in our physical body and emotional body like that person was saying, Oh my God, I feel me again. I am just realizing that I haven't been in me for the past two years. That's how trauma lives in the body. And so it's really, it's so important to take the time and do the self-care. But the self-care is not just about like going back to myself and caring for myself. And I don't care about the world because that's spiritual bypass, but it's actually I care for myself so that I can step in and step forward with the power to hold space to be that space where this hard conversation are happening to be that space that speak up and speak the truth, truth to power be that person that would collaborate with other, not with tension and stress and overwhelm. This doesn't this doesn't support the field. And I think part of the part of the activism right now, unfortunately, is focusing so much on outer action and not enough on inner action. And it's not either or. You cannot do just inner action, inner only. Inner action would be spiritual bypass only Outer action is not sustainable on the long run because you're going to collapse and freeze. But if you bridge the two, the inner action that is rippling in the outer action, then you can stand up together and we can really change because what we're seeing right now is horrific and we're witnessing it as a movie. And So what it does, it's like it remains. It keeps us frozen in our own reaction and stimulated by this horrific images and the inability to do anything. How is that possible? How is that possible that we're witnessing it and we think that we're incapable of doing anything that's it's not a movie. What we're witnessing is not a movie. And we are witnessing a lot of manipulation of this information. And so how can we build coalition? How can we collaborate? How can we understand that it's not going to take one person, one organization, 1 you know, 1 philosophy. It's going to take it all because what we're doing is we're moving ahead for whole new consciousness, a whole new way of being. We're coming to it as humanity, as also me separating myself from you because you're Jewish and you're Israeli and I'm Palestinian and I'm Muslim is not going to help me working with you. And you're working in your society and me working in my society and us working together and collaborating because parts of your society and parts of my society, they don't want us to be in peace. They have another agenda. And so if if I play into that part and you're playing into that part, we're going to continue hating each other and we're going to continue fighting each other to no avail. And for what? So that these parts are successful and these parts are winning because right now they are winning. They are winning. What was that like in Greece? Speaker 2 Greece did you? I'm really curious how that played out. I mean, I also feel like in some places tension is increasing. In other places, you see a lot of people working harder for peace, but in some corners, you really see an increase of tension. And I'm curious how that work for you. You know, you brought together, like you said, Jews, Israelis, Jews from around the world, Israelis, Palestinians, people with a lot of trauma, a lot of pain, a lot of doubt. And you brought them together into one space for, you know, a week. And how are those, how did what did you see in terms of those tensions? Speaker 1 You know a lot of the tension, so just to share also the methodology that we used, because they were addressing this tension, we did a lot of somatic movement, starting with somatic activation. So really it's always coming back to the body. We start in the body because P sets capacity, starts in the body. If my body is in an overwhelm, I, I have no capacity to listen to you. I have no capacity to listen to myself. I'm, I'm completely frozen. I'm, I have no capacity. And so the way we build the seven days is actually just first to go back to the body and then do the teaching, understanding what is actually happening in my body, What is actually happening in my emotional body, in my spiritual self, in my mental self. What are the belief that I have? What are the what are the different things that are triggering for me and really allowing, we used a lot of the methodology of the triad, the speaker, the listener and the neutral observer and just allowing people to go through their own process and their own trigger and their own tension. And so it's not that I was holding space for everybody to bring their tension in the space, but there were pockets of places where people were able to process their tension and realize where this tension are coming from. And you know what? A lot of this tension don't come from external action. The external action or the external event are the trigger for this tension, but the tension already live in your body from before. And so we went back to the root causes of this tension. And that's the key. And the root causes of this tension most of the time are the five wounds of the human soul is this feeling of abandonment, rejection, humiliation, betrayal and injustice. Like, look at us, we are living in like the widest wound right now of betrayals and injustice. But underneath betrayal, there's abandonment and underneath injustice, there's rejection. And we're doing ping pong on both sides. And not just like in Palestine, Israel, around the world, because we are witnessing and speaking about this as an event that is happening and we can't do anything about it. Oh, now it's Lebanon. OH, and now it's Iran. And so it's going to be Yemen. Like the name of the country even doesn't matter. It's really it feels like we're being invited to step into two forces, the force that believe in the love and the power of love and love as a powerful tool and the force that believe in fear and fear as separation and the tool of separation so that we can stay in isolation and we can say in victim consciousness and not understand that what these times are being are calling us for. They're calling us to be the creator. They're calling us to step out of this victim consciousness. There's no victim perpetrator savior. This model is is Kaduk. You know, it's like is obsolete. There's no one victim, 1 perpetrator and one saviour. This model of like Palestinian as victim, Israel as perpetrator and the US as the saviour collapsed because the saviour didn't step into to save anybody. On the contrary, the perpetrator is taking over and the victim is divided. Speaker 2 When you say this to people that when you say to your group, there's no such thing as victim, perpetrator, it's all a big mess. Are people receptive to that? Like, I mean, I, I'm, I'm just imagining people reacting with a like uproar, saying what? How could you say? Speaker 1 Yeah, How can you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Of course people are not welcoming. This is we're breaking notions and programming, so people are not going to work out. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. Of course not. It's the same as when I arrived, you know, when I 20 years ago, I, when I was in Congo and I was training on conflict transformation and one of the first premises was conflict is danger and opportunity. Then already they wanted to commit. They're like, no, what what are you talking about? Conflict is danger. There's no opportunity to conflict. I say, OK, bear with me and let's do an exercise. What does this conflict that is currently in Congo brought to you as an opportunity? And they came up with at least 20 things that it brought to there. Like what? And so a lot of community development, a lot of power coming together, a lot of building coalitions, a lot of development. I don't remember all of it 20 years ago, but if you even think about it now, what we're living right now, even our our own partnership, the partnership we have is Amira. What you know now about what's? Speaker 2 Happened I met you. Speaker 1 In Gaza that you met me what? That you met the people in Masafariatta, this wouldn't have happened. So of course we are. We're in a dangerous space. So I'm not saying, oh, it's great that it's happening. Let's look at the opportunity. I say it's dangerous. And let's not lose the focus that this is an invitation for us to step into our power and our sovereignty and understand that we have been manipulated and programmed for the past maybe 80 or even more centuries, and it is now to come back to a whole new consciousness of humanity as sovereignty. Speaker 2 I hope so. You know, I think I'm thinking about what things that you are talking about, about what this has created. For instance, all of this, you know, what we've been living through for the past three years, 2 1/2 years, is that there is a new community forming in Israel that is really fiercely demanding peace. Now. We don't, we don't have enough power yet as a group. We don't yet have enough. We haven't coalesced enough as a group, you know, and elections are coming up in September and wow, I'm like, my dream is that this community that has formed from 2 1/2 years of non-stop protesting against, you know, what's happening, that this group will somehow find some political power, some electoral power. I don't know how that's going to happen. But I do know that, you know, for instance, the word peace was always, you know, a taboo for like 20-30 years. Nobody in Israeli politics could say the word peace without being completely delegitimized. Being called terrorist. Oh, you're terrorist lovers because you use the word peace. I mean, literally, that's the Orwellian but. Speaker 1 That's that's part of the manipulation, that's part of the programming. Speaker 2 So I feel like now, you know, we're starting to undo this even and even As for instance, social media, like social media manipulation has gotten incredibly dangerous, like crazy dangerous, but also an opportunity for us to call us out and talk about it. And finally, like when I see, when I think about, you know, I'm thinking about when you talk, I'm thinking about myself and where's my power? Like what is my power as an individual here, my mind? Speaker 1 That's what you're doing. Your power. Is this what you're doing? Calling it out? It's so powerful, Ilena, and that's part of the reason why I love partnering with you. Your power. Your power is the words that you write is the word that you speak. My power is the words that I write and I speak because we are living. Speaker 2 Healing your power is also your healing. You're a healer. You're Mamasha healer. Speaker 1 And our, and we're living in time where there's so many information that are false. There's so much programming. People feel that it's not that, but they don't know what it is. They know that there's another path, but they don't know how to go there. They know that it is like they know they're lacking something, but they don't know what they're lacking. And that's where peace activation methodology is coming in and say, yes, I, I, I, let me show you the road. Let me show you the path and there's many, many paths. It's one journey, but many paths. And one path is the media, you know, peace media that you have created. One path is peace activation. Another path is non violence presence. There's so many paths. The important thing is that we understand that it's one journey and that we're all building on each other's strength and that we're not competing. We're not competing. We're collaborating because what kills us, what kills our camp is this competition and comparison and criticism. We need to drop the three C. We need to make collaboration and communication and really understand that it's the only way that we can build strength and that we are sovereign. We're gaining back our power. So for this election, I call every single person listening to this or other in other spaces to stand up. If you're standing for peace, what it does peace mean to you? Because that has been the issue with the word peace. The peace for the Israeli means security and the peace for the Palestinian means freedom. And guess what? The security for Israeli means that they have to occupy Palestinian. So how can that be peace? That's why it got bad repetition reputation. Speaker 2 And So what? Speaker 1 The language is a mess, but it's it's important to name things as they are because in the beginning there was a word. The word is what defined the world, you know. And So what has changed in the last two years, I'll tell you what has changed is that finally there has been some parts of the Israeli and the Jewish society that are seeing how manipulation and programming and colonial power have translated in creating a reality in Palestine that we're currently living in. And we have created it and tainted it with many slogan that justifies the extermination of my people. And it's continuing to justify the extermination of Palestinian. That's what had changed. That's the opportunity. And so it's heartbreaking that this opportunity is coming with the death of my family and many, many, many, many families in Gaza and now in Lebanon and in Iran and around the world. But this is what's happening. What's happening is a wake up. We are waking up to the to the devastation of this last century. And another things that I want to share is that I did this immersion with my family, with my husband and with my two kids. There was another couple, there was their son and another mother was her son. And this showed for me and for this people that had their their kids, how separated we have become from our family unit, how we have been like from the beginning with this gender equality and fighting for women's right and putting, you know, different value for women's work and men's work and all of this. We have, like Patrick, you have separated the family unit into something that has been dismantled and doing this work together, the kids being nearby and playing and hearing them while we're doing our work and understanding that peace activation is not the work that I'm doing. Only outside peace activation is the work that I'm doing inside of me with my husband and with my kids, with my community, with my friends, with my neighbor, and only then at large. And so if each one of us is a peace activator already in our family, and we don't need to run away and do loud activism outside because we cannot bear the silence in our family and the denial in our family. And so it's huge, Ilana. It's huge because we're not addressing that in peace activism. We're addressing all the work that we're doing outside. When I listen to some of the activists on the flotilla ball that were arrested and tortured and that they have left behind a family and kids, my heart breaks. My heart breaks. How can we do an activism that separates us from our family and make it OK? How can we legitimize the violence against other human being because they have different opinion and calling them less than human because they believe that they have the power to change reality on the ground? These people are so courageous, These people, these activists are so courageous. And yet, what has been the result? Speaker 2 Yeah. You know what I think? You know what I think this reflects for me is that the long term impact on Israeli society and on the Jewish world in general of engaging in this, of engaging in the violence which also requires all of this language. We have this violence that has been, we've been carrying out for a very long time that has been getting worse and worse and worse and worse. And the worse it gets, the more language we need to justify it. And because of all this, because we're engaging in all of violence and all of this twisted, messed up language to justify it, it has a very deep impact on people's souls in everyday life. And I feel like I see this, I feel like on a daily basis in my life in Israel and lots of everyday interactions, that that force has become the default strategy of communication force. There's no community, there's no real connection. Everything is force and block. You know, for instance, I don't know if you follow the story, but like a few weeks ago, Alex Sinclair was sitting in a cafe with a keypad that had a Palestinian flag next to an Israeli flag. And he was stopped by some other guy in this coffee. He was sitting on his computer doing work in a coffee house with this stamp sized Palestinian flag on his on his ritual, you know, his ritual object his and some guy stopped him and called the police, right. So he's been wearing this for 20 years. You know, for 20 years he's been wearing this keep out with a Palestinian flag next to an Israeli flag. And he says that it's often created a dialogue. It's often a conversation piece. It starts people talking, like why and how? And it gets him to tell people about his ideas. He is a Zionist, but he wants his Palestinian state. And he's non violent. And he has ideas, OK. And he supports Palestinian state. He supports Palestinian rights. So he says usually it creates conversation. But this time, instead of conversation, for the first time in 20 years, a guy called the police on him that his response was forced. And then what's worse is the police came and arrested him, not the other guy, but he raised arrested him for wearing a Palestinian flag and then they kept him in detention. And that's arrest. It wasn't exactly arrest, it was detention. But whatever the difference is between the two, that's a legal difference. The bottom line is they physically grabbed him and put him in a cell and deprived him of his things and deprived him of his rights to call a lawyer or to call his wife. They also took away his keep on. They ended up cutting the, they destroyed it, they cut the Palestinian flag off. All of this happened. It was, it was a response of violence, right? Calling the police as a response of violence. And the police destroying his things and, and entertaining him are also a response to violence. And I've been thinking about this since that happened, you know, a month ago. And I feel like it's it's emblematic of what has happened in society from years and years of engaging in the violence and then justifying the violence. What happens is that violence becomes the default. And like, I see this on a daily basis, like especially on the roads. And I've asked people if they've noticed this too. And a lot of people have noticed this, that the roads have become very aggressive, very, very violent and like little, like little interaction. So for instance, I had this experience a couple of months ago where I was, I was parking my car, I was going shopping and I needed to park my car. I was waiting for someone to come in out of the spot and I was pulling in. That whole thing took 20 seconds, 30 seconds. During that tie, some guy behind me started screaming, right, ramming on his horn and then like yelling at me and cursing me and cursing me as a woman. They were a lot of gendered curse and screaming and screaming. And at a certain point, like I was like seriously a little scared. I don't want to say scared, scared is over is, you know, over dramatic. But it was like I was encountering something that, you know, people have encountered road rage before. Like people are obnoxious on the road sometimes. But there was something here that was like beyond anything that I have ever experienced. Like the fact that I was moving too slowly for him gave him the right to do all this for him. And the violence began with words. You know, I'm saying he began with this yelling and I couldn't help but think about this after was like I was a little bit shaking, you know, like a tiny bit shaking. Again, I don't want to over dramatize because I know, but it was like this real realization. It was just like this moment of feeling like something has happened to Israeli society as a result of all of us being trained to think that violence is normal, that force is normal, that the reaction to anything. If I don't like something that's happening, I am allowed to use this violence to control them and contain them and kill them if necessary. I mean, that's what we're doing. And with all this language to back, you know, to train us so that if there's something in your brain that's saying to you, hang on a second, maybe this is wrong, in comes this like deluge of words to say, no, no, no, violence is right. That is what's happening in Israeli society as a result of all this. And in the Jewish world also, I think in all of the Zionist Jewish world that's, you know, there to like jump in and be the advocate, they tend to say, no, no, Israel can do no wrong. Blue and white is always right that, you know, Israel can do no wrong. It's there. It's a whole verbal army to to justify this and to say violent. And that's what we're living in. We're living in this, this transformation of these. Maybe it's not true. But you know what's I'm asking myself how long this has been going on. I say 2 1/2 years. It's not 2 1/2 years. No, 20 years. It's more than 20 years. Is it 70 years? Is it 100 years? I don't know how long. OK, I don't. Maybe it's from the original, maybe it's from the 1800s. I don't know. I keep I I'm asking myself this question. I'm having lots of different conversations with people about whether or not this was always the way we were envisioning this and whether or not this has always been like this. I don't have an answer and I'm a little nervous to ask the question too hard but I'm just, you know, but I'm. Speaker 1 Just I want to say, I want to say a couple of things here, Elena. First of all, I want to validate your experience around you being afraid because when I listen to you talking about this guy screaming and cursing you, I also see a soldier that has a gun that could have come out from his car and shot you just because you moved too slow. I I can see that I can see that I can feel that. So that's what you felt. That's what you felt. That's why you were shaking. And the other thing I want to say is that already 30 years ago, 30 years ago, when I, when I left Israel, I left to study law in France. And then I came back to practice law, criminal law. And one of my Jewish colleague at the time we were, he's the one actually that shared with me Ben Morris's book. I know he went back to whatever he he wrote, but about the Palestinian question, you know, and I remember that he already then he's a Jewish from Iraq. He said, we don't realize what Israel is doing right now in the occupied territories that it's going to tame back in Israeli society all these soldiers that are being trained to go to Palestinian territory and have a total power and abuse of power. And all these soldiers going back home and the family welcoming back them back with pride and and honor about the work that they're serving the country. I mean, you're asking when did it happen? When did it start? It start with the whole story because we are talking, we're living a story that was built on a specific identity, specific religion and that that story helped justify acts of atrocities. But that's not only in Palestine, Israel. Again, it's the story the winner tells themselves about how this should be. And So what we're witnessing right now is the breakout of that story. That's why I'm saying what to go back to the drama triangle we're witnessing. Oh, then there's no victim, perpetrator, savior. We are a Co creator of that story and we need to create a new story and the new story of humanity is this. What is this new story of humanity we're building right now? The new story of humanity that we're building right now is that there's no identity, religion or gender that is above another. We cannot live in a world where because of the way you look, the way of the, the way you behave, you know, what you believe in or what's where you're born, then you're better or worse than another. We cannot. We're human. You know, that's like, that's the gift, That's the genius of humanity. And So what I hear you saying is also, we are living in a time of awakening of consciousness. And unless we're able to understand that, we cannot, we use violence against others unless we use that same violence against ourselves. And so Israel in its citizen and all because everybody as citizen has the duty to serve in the army, they brought that violence back home. That's why violence against women is increasing. That's why violence in the street is increasing. That's why it is there. So you cannot, you cannot abuse someone else without abusing yourself. That's where inner and outer peace collide. And what we're living right now in Israel, peace is a capacity. Nobody has capacity for that peace. That's why this man doesn't have capacity to wait patiently until you're you're parking. That's why that person doesn't have any capacity to see the Palestinian flag without being triggered and feeling justified in calling the police and the police feeling justified because that's what the government and the system of oppression. So what we're witnessing is that the system of oppression that was using oppression against Palestinian in the occupied territories and against Palestinian in the state is now turning against its own citizen. And so there's no more distinction. There's no more distinction and it's going to go worse and worse, Ilana, unless we, the citizen of the world, we stop it. And that's the idea that the flotilla is bringing. They're not yet successful, but this is the idea that will become successful because it's only citizen from around the world coming together. But they need to build their internal capacity. We need to build our internal capacity so that we can have peace as a capacity externally and work together, building on each other's strengths and collaborate and not deny one part or another. We cannot. We need all of us. We need all our parts to win this war. Speaker 2 I love that you say that, by the way. It's really very helpful to me the way you're saying. Everybody sort of has their part. I 'cause you know, I think about this a lot. I think about how you once said to me, you don't go to protest. Remember we had that conversation. I said, oh, let's do a recording on a protest. And you said to me, you don't go to protest, right? So I think about that. I have another friend who I've interviewed many, a couple of times, have even a David Rabbi, Dr. Reverend, have even there. She's amazing. She goes to protests all the time. Sometimes she'll go to multiple protests each day. She also helps run. And I know, and she does it with a disability. She has a disease that's a form of multiple sclerosis. So she has a very severe disability. And she goes anyway, she takes her body and she goes all the time. And I find myself lately, first of all, always in admiration of her and I love her and we've been friends for 30 something years, you know, but also I feel myself watching her and thinking to myself, sometimes I really can't do that anymore. Like I've been to my share of protests. I have, I have a living room full of posters. I have piles and piles of posters from the different protests that I've done. And I make my own posters all the time, depending on what's going on. I've done all that and I'm I'm feeling very a little bit worn out from protest. I feel my body is like telling me I don't know how much more I and I've been gradually doing less, less. So I have Habiba on one side who's non-stop protesting and wow. And then I have you on the other side who's like, I don't do protest and I'm finding myself and then I'm feeling sort of validated by what you say. We say like everybody does. Everybody. Speaker 1 Has their part, you know, I am so grateful for the people on the flotilla, but I know I cannot go on the flotilla like I have family and I want to, I want to protect my family and I want to protect my physical body. But I want to do my part in supporting them. I want to do my part in speaking up. I want to do my part in writing, in training, in developing A methodology that can support people. And you have your part. And, you know, I was speaking with Ahinamnini. She has her part with her art. And every single one of us has a part we're all having, you know, as a spiritual being having a human experience. We all signed up a contract that the on the way that we're going to live this life on earth. And we all have this paper in our brain, in our intuition that tells us what is the right action that I need to take right now? So I would invite our listener, think for a moment, close your eyes and tap into your heart. Drop into your heart. What is it that your soul came here to do? Your soul might have come here to speak. It came here maybe to train, to write, to sing, to paint to, I don't know, like, find it. What is it that your soul is longing to do? And do that? Do that part without comparing yourself to what you're doing. I'm doing her, she's doing, he's doing. We cannot. If I'm constantly comparing myself to what you're doing, then I would constantly feel not enough. And I will not be able to even do this part of me that I am able to do because I would be completely blocked, feeling unenough, unworthy, rejected and and completely frozen. And that's what happened to a lot of peace activists. So I don't need you to do the same thing as me. I need you to do what you're doing and you're doing something great. Ilana, I really, every time I read your sub stack, every time I listen to your podcast, every time I hear you say about what's you are giving us information about what is actually happening in Israeli society, what is actually happening in the Jewish world. And I think the fact of your background as a religious woman from Brooklyn coming to the US with all this, you know, with the program that was sold to you as a fantasy. You came here with a fantasy and you saw this fantasy being destroyed and you came, you came out of it with like, I know what I'm doing right now. And so don't let anybody else telling you that what you're doing is wrong because what you're doing is so needed right now because many people don't actually understand the nuances of the Israeli society. And it's so important to understand the nuances of Israeli society because Israeli society is a melting pot of many Jewish coming from around the world, even people coming from around the world claiming they're Jewish without being Jewish. Now speaking, we know, we know from some people from Russia or Ethiopian that came in claiming they're Jewish and they're not, but yet this allowed, allowed them to have the citizenship. So it's really important to understand that there's all this different layer within Israeli society that we cannot put Israel in a box and reject the whole of Israel. We cannot put the Jewish people in a box and reject the Jewish people. We cannot put the Palestinian in a. We cannot put any identity in a box and claim that it's one unified field. The unified field is. Speaker 2 Humanity the. Speaker 1 Unified Field is humanity I. Speaker 2 Don't have any problems with people, Jews or almost Jews coming and saying, look, you know, as Jews around the world, we struggle with certain things. A lot of Jews struggle as minorities, you know, especially now there's this violence and this it's hard being that minority, OK, and this it's hard having a 2000 year history of wandering and you know, but there's. Speaker 1 But that's another story, right? What I'm saying, right? My story. Speaker 2 Right. My issue is not my issue. That's not the part of the fantasy that I have an issue. My aunt, my part, my problem with the fantasy is that in this fantasy it completely ignored that there are other people here. And that's the part that I'm going back and revisiting all the time when I'm going in. Like, I'm in the middle of a conversation with a friend about texts from the 1880s around Herzl's time and Zionist text and trying to understand, but I really want to try to understand how far back this goes. And ultimately our big sin, I say ours as the, as the Jewish people, our sin is not, you know, the desire to end discrimination that Jews experience. Jews experience their fair share of violence and discrimination. That's not the issue. The issue is forgetting that there are other people in the world and thinking that the other people just don't exist. And that's the big reason also that other, that other. Speaker 1 People have also experienced the same thing. It's not just the Jews, you know, it's not just the Jewish people, it's the Roma. It's like in in so many places and in other civilization. If we go back to history, this is how all empire fell. Empire fell because they took over other people and dismissed the humanity of other people. And that's what's going to happen to Israel. Israel is going to fall. We don't know how long it's going to take, but it's going to fall because it's it's being crippled from inside out. Yeah, from this, from that. Speaker 2 Exactly what you said of your failure to recognize humanity, that is that is at the core of this, the core of all this is that, but is that you come from your place of your own trauma and from that place of trauma, or sometimes it's trauma and sometimes it's just narratives. It's narratives about trauma. I mean, like, for instance, I personally did not experience anti-Semitism growing up. You know, I experienced a lot of gender discrimination and a lot of sexism and a lot of like sexual, you know, gender based. I experienced that, but I didn't have a name for it. I did not experience anti-Semitism growing up in Brooklyn. However, I grew up in a, in a world where that was the narrative, right? My father experienced anti-Semitism. He, you know, was he and his brothers were beaten up for being Jews. He's the one who experienced, you know, the signs that said, you know, no dogs are Jews allowed. So he experienced that. And then it sort of came on to me, even though that wasn't my reality. My reality. But that's transgenerational. Speaker 1 Trauma, but that lives but that. Speaker 2 Lives in your. Speaker 1 Somebody, even if you didn't experience it directly, I mean, I didn't experience occupation, but it lives in my body because my family did. So that's where like, I really want to say something here around trauma because it's very important because do not dismiss, We cannot dismiss anybody's experience of trauma. However, we can use that trauma as a stewardship to the way we show up in the world. We don't use that trauma as a weapon to justify us creating more trauma for other people. That's the difference. Exactly. Exactly. Speaker 2 That's the whole thing. That's the whole thing. And that's that's the part that I'm unpacking. I'm not done unpacking my history, by the way. I feel like when you talk and you're talking about the groups, I'm doing it with you like you're like, you know, I wanted you to be with us there. Speaker 1 I really wanted you. Yeah, it's fun. Well, we're doing another one in in Majorca in June and that's closer as well. So 16/17/18 of June, it's really accessible. It's not a retreat, but it's just like intensive training of the methodology of peace as capacity. And so you're welcome to join, but it's really important is to understand it's like we are living in a traumatized time and we are all traumatized. However, we cannot use that trauma as a weapon. That's the whole thing. Is not. Speaker 2 Use the trauma to to hurt other people. That's the whole thing. And also that's the trauma. Responsive leadership. Speaker 1 That's exactly it. That's the pillar 3IN peace activation. It's trauma responsive leadership. How am I responsible of my own trauma and for what I create as a leader and. Speaker 2 So what? And so one of the bits that I'm really taking out of this is like, for me, unpacking my own history is a lot about unpacking the language, right, to see how much for me I'm. I'm like a language person, you know? Yeah, you're an. Speaker 1 Anthropologist. So yeah. So that's so that's. Speaker 2 Really what I'm doing and the so the, the book that I wrote last year in my book that, you know, in my Jewish state was all about unpacking the language that I, I mean, how I have to unpack and how it's all still, you're unpacking the language that dehumanizes Palestinians, the Zion language that I was totally, totally swimming in for decades. Swimming in it built my life around it. Some of it is really beautiful, OK. It has to do with Jewish belonging. It has to do with Jewish tradition and connection. And embedded in all that is this massive, massive rhetoric about dehumanizing the other about human Palestinians. And now I'm like at this place of trying to like disentangle it and ask myself, what does it mean to be Jewish? What does it mean for me to be part of the Jewish people? Without that? Can we? Can we, can we be Jewish, part of the Jewish people without having to be so busy, so hard at work on this, justifying the violence? That's, that's what I'm looking for. That's I just, I want to. That's such an important work. Speaker 1 Ilana, that's such an important work because I want to even push it further. Unpacking the language around gender equality again, unpacking the language around religion. Unpacking that we need to unpack so much around language that has built our century, century, century. Justifying the patriarchy, justifying the family unit and gender roles within that family unit that dismisses women, children, men like that put man in the centre of it. And you know what? Another event I'm doing is calling men to peace. Because what we're realizing is how many of these men are socialized for violence and justified in being violent and pushed to the corner to be violent. And they think that this is their role as the protector. So we have turned the role of protector into something that is very violent and that is dehumanizing for the other, for the woman, for the children and for the other. And it's so connected. It's so connected. Speaker 2 Everything is so connected. Speaker 1 The whole thing for patriarchal it's a. Speaker 2 Patriarchal image. It's a page. And you know, you know what really breaks my heart and everything you're describing, You know, I participated in this OK for so long. Of course, me too. Speaker 1 But you know what? Speaker 2 Breaks my heart. Is that part of what Israel as a project you know, as you know Jewish state project has done is it is I idealized the soldier it has turned it's glorified not only. Speaker 1 Idealized, it's glorified. The soldier. I participate in this also you. Speaker 2 Know like that we like, oh, the soldier, the soldier. And like, what are we doing? What do we do? We take, yeah, we take the most. Speaker 1 We take the most. Speaker 2 Important years of like adulthood. You know those years of like 18 to 21 to 21 when you're figuring. Speaker 1 Out what you want to be as an adult and we. Speaker 2 Are saying the most important thing you could do as a Jew, as a person in the world, is be a soldier. And we're living it out. And I'm like, what have we done and what we have done as well? Speaker 1 Is in addition, it's not only to men. We also added women to the mix and we separated the kids in the kibbutz. So we have the whole family unit that is dismantled and we have people, young boys and girls growing up without their family, feeling abandoned, rejected, and the recreating the same story. This is what we created. This is an experiment. Israel has been an experiment of dislocating and separating the family unit and justifying violence and glorifying violence as a mean for survival. So we've been growing up in a system in a consciousness of victim on a survival consciousness. And right now it's really that's what is being broken down. And so some, some people are still holding on strongly to that. Like how, how is that possible that I would have to deny everything I was brought up with and I don't know where I'm heading. So I want to hold on to this. And then there's the courageous soul that are saying, Oh my God, this is where we are now. Let's let let it really go down and be dismantled and let's open our heart and see where are we heading together. And, you know, I was just interviewing a Jewish astrologer. Astrologer. Did you say astrologist? Yeah. Speaker 2 Astrologist yesterday. Speaker 1 Deborah Silverman And she was saying, like, for the next couple of months, it's going to be the dismantlement of so many systems and power and finance and structures, and we need to hold strong with our own inner capacity to stay centered and grounded in the midst of all this turmoil. We have to, and we have to do it together because we have been brought up and programmed to be separated, Separated from our partner, separated from our kids, separated from our mum and dad, separate like being born in a hospital. You know, like so many of these different things have been brought to us as development and as advancement of humanity. And now we are on the verge of at the edge of this advancement. We're on the edge of this leadership. We're coming to the edge of our own humanity and stepping into a whole new consciousness. And are we able to do that together with nature as an ally? Because nature has always been here and will always be here. So even the, the discussion around climate change and how can we monitor or control climate change, it's manipulation and we see that. We see that. I, I'm in France, I'm seeing so many chemtrails. It's crazy. It's violence. It's violence. Speaker 2 So violence against nature. Speaker 1 As well. And so where will it stop and who will stop it? Speaker 2 We are, each of us. Speaker 1 Every of us has our own role. I love that. I love that I'm really. Speaker 2 Carrying that with me in a very serious way because, you know, we can't do everything, but we have to do where our heart pulls us to do in a way that works for us. I'm totally, totally hanging on to that. Really it's thank you. I have a new book coming out soon, actually. It's called Toxic Tactics and it's about this, it's about continuing this work of analyzing the language and the language that justifies violence. And I've been working on this for a long time and I'm, I'm as, as this book comes out, I'm realizing like what you're saying about I'm finding myself in the world, you know, I'm figuring out who I am in the world also. And the work that I'm, and you know, this, this feels so important to me 'cause like, it's always, it's always the narratives behind the violence. The violence happens because we've we have texts. Speaker 1 That that justify it. Speaker 2 And we need to unpack those. We need to tear those apart, get rid of all those texts that justify the violence. That's and that's like core work told. We need to unpack the story we tell. Speaker 1 Ourselves and we need to unpack the story that we were told. Yeah. And this, this has been actually the work that we did in Greece is really unpacked those stories, those individual stories so that we can create a new story. Well, maybe I'll see. Speaker 2 You in Mallorca? That sounds really fun. That would be amazing. All right. Speaker 1 All right. Speaker 2 Love chatting with you Eva. Really, I love the briefing with you. Speaker 1 Ilana, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for the opportunity. Thanks for listening to Women Ending War. If you want to help create change, you should join us. Subscribe like, comment or. Speaker 2 Share, tell your friends about us, talk about it, be part of the solution. Thanks and see you next time.