141: Why Vibes Matter: Science, Energy, and the Healing Power of Consciousness with Dr. Garret Yount

By listening to the Conscious Fertility Podcast, you agree to not use this podcast as medical advice to treat any medical condition and either yourself or others. Console your own physician or healthcare provider for any medical issues that you may be having. This entire disclaimer also applies to any guests or contributors to the podcast. Welcome to Conscious Fertility, the show that listens to all of your fertility questions so that you can move from fear and suffering to peace of mind and joy. My name is Lauren Brown. I'm a doctor, traditional Chinese medicine and a clinical hypnotherapist. I'm on a mission to explore all the paths to peak fertility and joyful living. It's time to learn how to be and receive so that you can create life on purpose. Today on the Conscious Fertility Podcast, we have Dr. Garrett Young, he's a PhD molecular neurobiologist at the Institute of Neuetic Sciences, IONS, where his research focuses on laboratory-based models of exceptional human abilities. He obtained his BS from the, that's in sound right, BS. We're going to call it Bachelor of Science, right? He's named his BS. That's on the other. There's some people that, you know, with our topic, they may say, "Yeah, exactly. This is a BS degree." He has, you'll see we're a little playful here today. He obtained his Bachelor of Science from the Department of Molecular and Cellular Biology at the Pennsylvania State University and his PhD from the Department of Neurobiology and Behavior at the State of New York at Sony Brook. I'm sharing with you guys his background here because when we talk about conscious work, part of the goal of the podcast is to bring some credibility there, like showing you that there is some rigor. There's some science behind this. We're not just somebody had at a, had this thought or one person had this dream and they're telling you this is how the world could work. There, there's some science rigor and people like Garrett today have done the education to get to this place where they can really observe and study these things that we're going to talk about today. So a little more about Garrett. He began his formal studies in consciousness research with a small grant from the Institute of Neuetic Sciences way back in 1995. That allowed him to work with bio field practitioners. Garrett will have to define what bio field is and spiritual healers in the laboratory. And since then, Dr. Yon has conducted carefully controlled laboratory experiments with spiritual healers and bio field practitioners from around the world. And this includes China, Brazil, Canada, the USA, Japan, India, Russia, Hungary, and Sri Lanka. And he's also been fortunate to be amongst the first scientists to be awarded a research project grant from the National Institute of Health to study energy healing. And he's also the author of Why Vibes Matter, Understanding Your Energy and Learn How to Use It Wisely. At the beginning, I was telling Garrett at the beginning that we actually met way back in 2022 when he was part of the Society of Science Exploration Conference and I got to moderate his talk. And so welcome back Garrett and nice to have you on the Conscious Fertility Podcast. Thank you so much. It's great to be here. So as I kind of shared in the intro, looking for like credibility here. And to me, you're the credibility guy. Like you have studied, you got PhD, you're doing research, you're doing rigor. It's kind of like I'm the guy that wants to believe. But I need some evidence to help me believe. I'm not one of those guys that, okay, I'm just going to believe because you said it. I may be a little naive, but I say I have some healthy skepticism. That's why I kind of wanted to talk to you today because I feel there's a paradigm shift from the Newtonian world. Everything's very materialistic. You can only only what you see, measure with your senses are real to this quantum idea that there's more to this world with this paradigm shift happening. So I'm so glad you're here. And I kind of wanted to start with just your book that you wrote. Why vibes matter? Understand your energy and learn how to use it wisely. I want to get into a little bit of your book. Can we first define biofield sciences or biofield healing or biofield practitioner since it's in your book and in your bio? Yeah. So it's biofield and biofield science. It's somewhat of a catch-all phrase to include spiritual healing like Chigong, Joray, Raky. So it's you alluded to the materialistic idea of the world and then the body being this kind of machine is not the whole story, clearly. So there are all these traditions. A lot of them healing traditions developed to manage the subtle energies of the body. So different cultures call it different things like Chi, Uprana. So biofield science is kind of the modern lingo to make it more palatable to speak to a scientific community. So it's essentially these purported energies associated with the body that are very related to health and can be influenced by our mind. So that's the catch-all phrase for biofield. But I need to even back it up more. How is it somebody gets interested in this field? Like what was it for you that brought you to this? And I ask it because you know many people when they go into some type of vocational profession, there's a personal experience like a lot of people that end up being psychologists, psychotherapists had trauma that they want to work with, right? And they heal themselves and they went out to and heal others. It's because it's not the typical thing. You know, I want to grow up to be a lawyer, a accountant, a doctor, a researcher. This back in the 90s definitely wasn't on people's radar. It's like it is today. So what's your story? How did you get interested in this? Well, it's interesting because when we speak earlier a little bit about the podcast, conscious fertility, and you were mentioning about the consciousness aspect of it, that's where I began my interest. So when I was young, had some experiences that led me to believe that consciousness and the human mind was a lot more than what everybody was talking about when I was learning about. So I was super interested in consciousness, powers of the mind, and then trying to do personal stuff, reading books, a lot of stuff out of Asia, trying to get out of my body, stuff like that. And then I wanted to study consciousness from a PhD. And this was even earlier than the 90s. So there was really no graduate school for this. So I went to the Department of Neurobiology and Behavior at State University of New York thinking that, okay, well, that's got neurobiology and behavior. That mix, they're going to welcome me there. But I realized a couple of weeks in that, if I mentioned the word consciousness one more time, I was going to get booted. So I kind of, and that's when I met my, not my now, my wife, who had set this. The caterpillar has to bend in order to move forward. So I was like, okay, I'm just going to bend them and I get this PhD, do some things closely related to mind and genes as I could. This was my interest from my bachelors of science and molecular biology. So I began just kind of searching for this mind gene connection. And that's when my father was diagnosed with cancer and was given a pretty grim prognosis. And so he, that's when I learned about Chigo with him. I learned to do Chigo and it's the whole personal art story, beautiful. But I realized that all this was kind of an in to get an age grant. I can study consciousness by studying the mind body healing. And so that's what kind of moved me in the direction. So I learned about Chigo personally as a health promoting practice with my father, him, you know, doing it with him because it was in a cute situation. But for me, it's, I just continue to do it daily as a health, health promotion. And that kind of, that's my research end. But I answered the question. I don't know. Can I go to the place there? No, I like it. I've got work questions for you. We'll talk a little bit about Chigo and then and but first you had mentioned and if you want to share great if not, I understand as well. But you said you had some experiences when you were younger. And then you, and then you bought books on how to get out of your body. So what was your, how old were you? And, and if you're willing, can you share your experience? Remembering our audience is fairly open to this and probably had similar experiences. So we're always looking like is it just me or have other people had these experiences? Sure. I was about 13 years old. The most, the most dramatic they were smaller instances of kind of feeling like I was having these clairvoyant experiences. But the most dramatic one that really kind of shifted me shifted my whole course of my life was 11 or 13. And I was, I was planning to sneak and have alcohol for the first time. So I had been collecting little bits of alcohol in my, an amazing jar in my closet, my bedroom and hide in this for my parents planning for when they were going to be away. So, uh, you're making what I would cause a kid swamp juice, all different types. Oh my gosh. Grasshoppers, you know, like the bottoms of the, the glasses from my parents, you know, parties, I would get up and go to the night and go, oh my gosh. So, anyway, they, when they discovered it, I was in another floor of the house. I was reading the Lord of the Rings in front of the fire. And, you know, there was a metal earth scene and it was if someone changed the channel in my mind. And I could see my parents discovering my swamp juice. And it was, you know, this huge emergency for a 13-year-old kid, you know, and so I ran down the hallway down the stairs in my room and they were in the exact position. It was just like I had to I had seen through the house and I like fell on the back. I almost fainted. I was like so overwhelmed by this They of course thought that I was upset because I had been busted and they're like come down It's okay, you know, you know, we you can't drink this, but you know, we'll get you something and I say no No, I just saw through the house. I just saw through the house So that was a pretty dramatic event for me and that kind of set me into this curiosity About what how did that happen and what is going on and you know, it's fun to think about I think that you know Obviously it was an emergency for my psyche at that time Maybe that broke through these barriers that we built up to this ability to have these clairvoyant visions And also, you know, I have my mind I was in a magical world of middle earth I often I often think that that's part of what kind of loosened me up to be able to access that Just my imaginations, you know fast forward to where we are today Have you developed a process where you're able to do that with more on will or is it still a random not at all It's completely random. Yeah, okay, so that's curious It sounds like you know, what you're saying is that near death like experience where people that have NDE's Often can see out other rooms outside of their body like they can so we know you just you had that experience without without having a Near death experience, but you had a near death like where you're able to travel through walls, etc. Yeah, yeah So and the Qi Gong part have you done research on Qi Gong since you know you because you've done so much research I want to I want to be curious about some of the research you've done and Qi Gong just because for me being a practitioner Chinese medicine was part of our training It wasn't until just actually a few years ago that I got interested and started Playing with Qi Gong for my own personal well-being because it resonated with me So I'm curious for you with Qi Gong it resonated with me because I never enjoyed meditation so much just sitting I never enjoyed it and This Qi Gong teacher said that what Qi Gong is the way she described it It's it's a combination of intention breath and movement Mm-hmm and to me intention is has benefit the breath obviously and movement I think about energy because I don't understand it because I'm not an electrical engineer But magnets and they need a move to create all this energy, I guess so you know sitting versus Meditation, but there's movement to it. It just made sense based on how somebody was explaining Electrical engineering that you need a little movement to make the energy move to have energy so what's your understanding if Qi Gong have you done research? On it. Yeah, I really like that and I've never thought about that that the it makes sense from electrical engineering You know movement There's movement electricity anytime. There's a magnetic field all this relationship. That's really cool I always thought of it that I really like Qi Gong similarly for meditation. It's I'm not that good at meditating and From each Qi Gong it's like it's easier to it basically is easier to meditate because You kind of got you know the monkey mind. It's just one should I be kind of throw it a bone You know, it's got something to do it just makes it easier for me to meditate that's that's my experience of it I did I have done quite a bit of research on it I was originally curious about it because you know when I went so when I learned Qi Gong with my father We had gone to China and we were in Beijing and learning from practitioners there and had Some interaction with scientists that had published papers. So we learning the personal practice That was the main thing but in addition I did some labs that had published papers showing that external Qi Gong so not not the personal meditation but Masters who had built up enough Qi and practiced to be able to admit it to treat others and there had been gone into Chinese labs and shown that cell cultures are responding and cell cultures was kind of my thing I came out of the part of my background that wasn't covered in the bio was I worked at the Brain Tumor Research Center at University of California San Francisco So I grew brain cells brain cells, you know, that's part of my it's everything my every day So I was really fascinated by this demonstration apparently in these labs because I'm sure your audience is aware of the great power of psychon or immunology and the ability of our mind to influence our health and So I was curious like this is a great this very very limited funds for research back then and still now in this and That's what I argued to get this NIH grant was if it is if these cell culture experiments work Then it argues for more of like a radiation, you know type model versus Cell basically a hypnotic induction of Self-healing so I believe that power of self-healing is you know, it's dependant as miraculous and wonderful as imagining these worlds of subtle energies and Particularly going through this month with my father Who by the way was a hypnotist? I and I was these these G-Gone masters. They're just they're super charismatic and You know, it's seemed to me. It's possible that they're the whole ritual of this was basically Allowing you know giving permission or mesmerizing people into unlocking their own healing abilities Kind of like my imagination that this Lord the Rings, you know Imaginations unlocked my mind's ability to have the clairvoyant experience. So I was really interested to just hey I want to repeat these experiments and see if that's if we can show in vitro then it kind of you know There's two different branches you can go down on the research. So that's what I that's how I got started in it I got to unpack something there when you said you're working with the Petri dishes the cells and the Petri dishes What were you measuring to see change because to me this is significant because I would think that cells in a Petri dish Don't get impacted by placebo effect Yeah, that's pretty much the basic idea of why doing it in the Petri dish So the advantage of it is there's no placebo effect at least the way that we think about it The disadvantage of course is it's disconnected from the whole body's electrical system and you can argue that this is You know what relevance does it have particularly if it doesn't work what relevance does it have to a whole body if it does work It has relevant, you know, it's pretty clear. The relevance. Okay. Well, there's something going through space That's hitting it and having an effect apparently So there were there was so many I wanted slight diversion, but this is one of my favorite stories from over there in Beijing You ask what I was having them do so it is a Petri dish I got normal brain cells growing. There's a primary cells that came from a person's brain and this is very very difficult to have them grow in unplastic dish so I asked the Chigo masters to come in to the lab and try to emit Chi to help the cells grow to promote their cell growth basically looking at cell division, you know mitosis of these normal human cells and this was the surprising You know one of the most surprising things that happened over there the first time we did it I was sitting there observing walk but he you know, he did all the motions again very mesmerizing He walked out and he's like no those cells needed to go. I sent killing Chi they had to go and and I didn't and I said what This is all falling apart so it's so much work to you know take Give this all set up Beijing and then I calm down and I realized that as I said, it's really hard to get cells to grow in in unplastic so three days before I do a lot to that plastic to get it ready Put a bunch of stuff on it one of the things I put on it are Lethally irradiated brain tumor cells so tumor cells grow great on plastic because they're cancerous and they got all their signals messed up And so as I said the brain tumor research center for years I just had these cells in the freezer. It's basically a reagent It's a tube I take out where I had Granted a bunch of cancer cells hidden with X-rays of the point that there's so much damage to their DNA that they initiate what's called program cell death It's basically this like a two or three-day process where they They systematically disassemble all the RNA and protein. It's something that's natural in our bodies and all of our cells that's still intact in these cancer cells so What I do is I smear them on the bottom of the plastic and bunch with along with a bunch of other stuff and then They just slowly kind of melt into the plastic and create this Organic matrix Then on the day the experiment when I put in the normal cells which are very finicky They're much happier because now they're organic material But I've been doing this for five years Didn't even think about the fact that those Cancer cells that were undergrowing program cell death again. They that means they know they're on their way to dying What's that? It is a pup to see it's exactly and but there's 10 million of them and there's 100 normal cells So I realized oh my gosh if this guy can really see the energy of cells just like he said And he's gonna go in there and assess it of course. He's gonna see these predominant cells in there that literally have to go which is exactly what he said So I mean again, I had a vasal vega response. I was like This is proof that they can see she and like I can't believe it So I mean so it's like okay. Well, that's a whole nother line of research And that's okay. Let's just do it over again this time ignore the dying cells There are and we can start at that whole thing over So there's a bunch of stories that come from that, but that's a long way of saying. One of the things I asked them to do was to help normal cells grow better in one of the sets of experiments. And were they able to? They were. And that experiment, they were able to induce greater growth in the normal brain cells compared to untreated cells. I will say that I came back and tried to replicate that experiment. And I was not able to have it replicated in my own lab. So I published the data together in one paper saying it worked this time. It didn't work this time. So it's inconclusive from this set of results. Do you have a sense like what do you how would you do it? Definitely or how you figured out they were as the cell death, the cancer cells. So they were seeing that before you couldn't. Yeah. Is there something between the two labs between not just physically, but is there something that you realized could be the issue why didn't work in your lab? Well, it's I wouldn't call it realization. It's a that's a hunch. You can't. And it has to do with the minds of everybody involved. So my mind approaching it the first time was a very open, wondering mind. I was like, what does it can the universe show us? You know, I was just a kind of a kid just like happy and curious. And then for sure when I was doing it again, I was like, okay, now I know exactly what I want. This I wanted to repeat. We're going to nail this down. You know, we're going to lock it in. So there was like an open feeling and versus a almost controlling, you know, intention, attached to form and outcome versus curious and open. Absolutely. Absolutely. So no resistance resistance. Yeah. It feels like that. I mean, so that was there's no doubt that was different. Whether or not that could impact it. I mean, I've spoke, I mean, I'm not the only one that this has happened to and it's happened to me over and over again. And when we have conferences on bio field science, it's a major topic that reproducibility paradox. We start talking about the trickster, you know, the archetype of the trickster and maybe the universe is kind of guiding this process in a way that peaking it around the corner for us, because you know, we need to understand a little bit better. I don't know. It's very, it's very interesting and fun and also problematic because reproducibility is kind of one of the most fundamental aspects of the scientific method. So it's a real challenge. It remains a real challenge. I want to kind of unpack this why we can't do the reproducible, right? Like, like, you know, as you said, it's so important with a scientific model. And again, hunches and what's going on. You mentioned the trickster before that, though, just to kind of bring it into a group here. I want to get more into this self healing. Like the body has this capacity, self healing. The Chinese medicine that I practice understands that. I'm also like your dad at clinical hypnotherapist. So using the mind to engage the body's healing in the West, we often call with a, we give it a negative connotation placebo. And we know placebo exists 30% more in things. And you talk about rituals. Like, when a doctor puts on their, you know, the wash their hands and somebody puts on their gloves and they go through the door and the mask and the light. I mean, that's a ritual as well, right? And we see research where they do knee surgery orthoscopic, but they pretend, you know, they go in and they show the video of a knee surgery happening. So everybody's spending the same amount of time with the patient on the table. One is getting real surgery. The other one, they just, you know, they, they put the probe in, open a hole, but they do no surgery. And it's all done. And the person that's having the fake surgery has his good or better results in the real surgery. So I always viewed it as Chinese medicine view is we are looking to do whatever we can to get the self healing capacity involved. We want the body involved because it has this incredible way of healing. Like it's constantly replacing cells and killing cancer, fighting cancer and fighting bacteria all the time, even we don't have symptoms. So placebo is not something we don't want. We want to engage you in the healing. When it comes to research, I get it because we want to know does this subsist make a difference? Like we want to know, we want to, you know, we want to know if this is adding to it. So can you talk a bit about what you've observed with the body self healing ability from the bio field perspective? And also maybe talk a little bit more about placebo as a scientist because so many people dismiss it and say it's a bad thing where I'm saying we want to engage the self healing capacity, belief. Yeah. Well, let me start with that my perspective as a, just add, so I agree. And I think it's fantastic that you're getting a message out. And from a molecular biologist, I just, I want to say one of the coolest experiments on placebo that I think is one that shows that placebo can actually regulate gene expression. So this is a while ago. It's so long I can't remember the name and maybe 20 years ago. But it was a, you know, our body, so opioids, the famous drugs, right? The famous painkillers, we have endogenous opioids, our brain produces, that's how we, that's why the, ones, the drugs that you take work, they hit the same receptors. So they did a placebo experiment where they're injecting, I guess, saltwater and demands jaws, which is just painful. It's not, it doesn't cause any damage, but it just, it hurts. And they did it when they were giving them either exogenous opioids or not. But, you know, the design, don't remember fully. But the punchline is that people that were getting a painful injection of saltwater and trigger jaw could get pain, were then experiencing pain relief with a placebo. But they looked in the brain and they could measure that these endogenous opioids were being synthesized and released. So this, the placebo effect wherever that is, that black box of you, the power of your mind, just that belief was able to turn a gene on and turn up its expression in your body. So I gotta unpack that. So they were giving an injection to cause pain. They were giving anti-pain pills to some and to some not. And the ones that were getting the fake placebo pills, their brain behaved as if they got the real pill. That reminds of me here locally, in UBC, they did a Parkinson's study where they were doing some, maybe they're giving them dopamine. I don't think they do it through injection to help with their tremors. And so, because they're talking about the behavior of training the body, right, to respond. So no surprise, they take the medicine. I hopefully I'm remembering the study well. And, you know, their tremors improved and mood improved. But then they switched out the drug and started giving them saline and they had the same results, not surprisingly from the placebo effect. But then when they did the brain stuff, it was if they were getting dopamine, but they weren't. So same idea. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's impactful because modern medicine, you know, at this stage, there's a lot of credibility in your DNA. It's like, okay, this is the DNA gene level. It's really takes it out of the realm of woo-woo if you see it because it'll help you. Oh, it's just in your head, you know, just imagining and all that. Like as if it doesn't have any power impact. But these examples show that impacts our bodies at the most fundamental level that we can, that really has all the credibility in medicine right now. That's a little difficult to explain how come this works. However, that it works is not as debatable as in when you, you know, the people that do visualization of like pac-man eating cancer cells or they're doing things, they're, you can measure a physical response in the body even though there is nothing a physical matter that they are taking or getting injected in. So why this works may be very debatable, but the fact that you can see the body's healing response and outcomes change, is that something you're fairly confident that we are measuring that and we can see that. We know it works, but we don't always know how or why it works. Yeah, and I think it's good to compare those kind of situations. So the visualization, impact man and seeing the impact on kind of the overall physiology, that's clearly demonstrated. But it leaves open a lot, a lot for interpretation about why. So there's so many aspects of our behavior that could impact and have some health condition, and especially subconsciously, right. This visualization could trigger 25 different behavior changes and also attitude changes in that person over the period of time from really mundane things like small choices about diet to kind of level of chronic anxiety, which affects the autonomic balance and the autonomic balance influences inflammation. So there's kind of, there's a wide range of things that could explain that that it happens. Except that, but if you do these really simple experiments and you show that this pain injection, it's all happening right there in this little time zone and you see a gene turn on at this very fundamental level is, okay, well, I can influence level, I can influence a gene activity. That's kind of a very basic mechanistic explanation for how you can add these health benefits. Now, as you point out, there's still upstream of that, literally, how does that connect? Like, what, you know, molecule goes in, the turn on that gene, there is still a black box there, as you say. But, yeah, the science is in that the power of self-healing is within our intention. You know, it's something that we can influence intentionally. The limit of what it can do is, is unknown. But now that we know that it can influence gene expression, it's kind of like way beyond the limit that we would even need to think that we could influence pretty much any health condition. My hunch is, it's, you know, it's just the perspective that we have. And sometimes when you change the perspective that you look at something, you can see it differently. I think in modern medicine and modern science, Newtonian science, we think the physical is the real and the source. I get a hunch talking to people like yourself and the guests I've had on the conscious fertility podcast that there's another blueprint or dimension that is the more of the source. And when, although we're not measuring it, noticing it, when we make a change on that level, the cascade flows down into the physical. So we keep looking at the physical as it, this is where it's all starting. But to me, it's kind of where it's ending. And maybe it's bidirectional. It probably is bidirectional. But I think, you know, there's things that we're doing that look invisible to ourselves, that are happening on another level. And I want to talk about your PTSD study that I got to moderate that you, when you presented at the SSE on, I think it was called decrease on post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms, falling lucid dreaming healing workshop. I have to give a little bit of preliminary why I want you to talk about it. There's a thing called fertility trauma. So they have shared that the stress of going through infertility and infertility treatments is comparable to a terminal illness diagnosis. And there's one group that I've been talking with that has been measuring heart rate variability, something on the brains on the palms. So they're measuring all these autonomic nervous system. And they have compared some of the stress that women go through when they go through fertility and IVF to the stress that they put Navy SEAL through training. They seem to the body. Okay. So now that I've said that for those that are listening that are on the journey, they're like, oh my god, that's what's happening. And if you're are listening, yes, this is, you know, the fact that your partner can get up in some aisle today just to show you the stress, they're measuring this. So this isn't like an opinion. I mean, this has been studied and measured. So they have PT, they have fertility stress, fertility burnout, fertility trauma. Now I'd love for you to talk about PTSD, what that is, what is lucid dreaming? And then what did you learn in your research about this? Okay. Okay. So PTSD is a condition that's, you know, can be triggered by any type of trauma. It leaves a residual disorder where the years after it's kind of this really debilitating symptoms of, you know, nightmares and being triggered by things and anxiety. It's a very difficult condition and it's very difficult to treat. I learned, so lucid dreaming is a special type of dreaming where you wake up inside your dream. So you know that your body is in bed asleep. This has been talked about in all kinds of cultures in the past, dreams of knowledge, from the Yaki Indian tradition. I learned about this from the Carlos case, the native books, books, books. That's where I learned how to do lucid dreaming. Lucid dreaming was in modern science, you know, began to be studied about a hundred years ago. So I was, I've always wanted to do research and dreaming and I saw where, and I had been doing research on gene expression with people, folks with PTSD previously. And then I found this lucid dreaming teacher named Charlie Morley out of London who was doing these workshops for veterans with PTSD and helping them transform their trauma and reduce their symptoms through the lucid dreaming workshop. And you got a Winston Churchill fellowship. It's a very credible, really amazing anecdotal stories about, I'm relieved from PTSD symptoms. So I was in, I kind of kind of would say, hey, do you want to do some science on this? You know, move it out of the anecdotal mode into kind of the, you know, more scientific approach and maybe that this could benefit more people. So that's where it started. We did a pilot study, the 50 people PTSD. And we brought them, this was an online workshop. It was very intensive. It was a week long. It was about 22 hours total of online training. But then, you know, homework and nighttime practices, you know, I can talk as much about that as you like learning how to do induction techniques. Anybody can learn induction techniques. Some people just have lucid dreams spontaneously, about one in five people just have them spontaneously, at least once in their life, where you can do techniques to learn them. What I did from the Carlos Castaneda book. But basically, at dinner this week, we were measuring PTSD symptoms using a clinical tool, a self-report questionnaire called the PCL 5. And everybody came in to the study above the threshold of PTSD and everybody went out below and we checked three months later and they were still down. That's what I reported at the Society for Scientific Exploration. These spoke about from that word, we got a grant to repeat it with a large study, a larger study and have a placebo group, and which meant we took 100 people in. Again, these were both veterans and people that had PTSD from from other types of trauma in their life, domestic violence, for example. So we repeated the study half of the people were randomized to a weightless control. So they knew they were in the study and they got the same questionnaires every day, but they had to wait until the other group went through their workshop and were processed in three months later. So this whole time, the weightless group, every morning, they got the same questionnaires that the active group had like, did you have a lucid dream last night? You know, and basically they went through all the probing and prodding. So that we could tell whether the great result we got from the pilot study could have been from, like you say, the ritual, they were part of a study, they're in this group together. So that was why we did this replication and it did reproduce where the people in the workshop had this great reduction in PTSD. And this time we could compare it to another group that was being studied but didn't have the workshop and it was statistically significant. So that randomized control trials, and sure you spoke about it with this group before is kind of this gold standard. So we pushed it through that and it came out positive. So we just we just published that. So it's it's a wonderful thing. The level of impact is in similar to other therapies when they work. Now again, everybody coming into this, the other therapies had not worked. So for example, group group therapy. But I think, you know, for sure, group therapy was part of this workshop because they're all together. We had a psychotherapist present during all of it. They learned about meditation. They learned a lot and they I think probably the most important thing is they learned that our subconscious mind is there to protect us and that paying it basically their dreaming. They learned that nightmares are something that you don't want to wake up from. It's an opportunity to work through trauma. So, you know, Charlie Morley encouraged them to embrace the monsters and amazing stories of transformation. It was very emotional for me going through this witnessing at all. But it's it's the level of type of relief you see with other therapies when they work. But when some people it might be better for them because you don't there's some stigmas sometimes around PTSD and people don't want to go in to a hospital or to a clinic or they don't want to admit to anybody. So this is something you can do privately and it's free. This was I want to ask more questions about your experience and what those do to help you. Like you say there's a nightmare you don't want to wake up and when you said lucid dreaming you wake up in your dream just to clarify you're not waking up like as in your dreams over you're dreaming but you're aware you're dreaming. Yeah, you're still in the dreamscape but you can influence it basically because you're you're awake in it. Yeah. So normal dream you're kind of being carried along with the story. In the lucid dream you wake up you can influence it. There's different levels of lucid dreaming but the basic you're lucid as long as you know you're dreaming and yeah your body's still asleep. It's a sleep state. There's a difference in the brain during normal rabbit eye movement sleep which is where most narrative based dreams occur. Normally your prefrontal cortex is pretty much offline and this is part part of what the prefrontal cortex is famous for is your sense of self. So they've shown now in a lucid when you become lucid the prefrontal cortex comes back online which makes sense because you know yourself is now your body's in bed but you're kind of reflective awareness the one that we're using right now to talk that's inside the dreamscape. Not all of the not all lucid dreams you have total control and Charlie Mardi was very careful to talk about. I mean he's his training is through the Tibetan Buddhist in tradition. He doesn't really like to talk about control because really this is your entire subconscious mind. It's about influencing and interacting and engaging with it in a way where you do have your intention. Your intention is there. It's episode nine. We had Robert Wagner on. It's called Lucy Dreaming to manifest your reality. You're familiar with him then. I love what he's got. Yeah, Robert. So he's episode nine by the way, everybody. If you want to learn more about Lucy Dreaming, so when they have a nightmare, because I think about when I work with people awake, awake, we go into their uncomfortable feelings and blease with my kind of hypnosis type sessions, because the whole idea is to metabolize them. Not that if you what you resist persist. Yes. A relationship with it. So and I think the Lucy Dreaming would be being more powerful if you have a nightmare or a scary animal or whatever. Can you share a little bit of because I'm do people share what some of the lucid dreams are? And can you share kind of some of the ways people are healing inside their dream? Because you said it's an opportunity to heal the subconscious, trying to keep you safe. And so rather than ignore these dreams, there are an opportunity to heal it. Yeah. Well, I can tell you my own experience, I think, with the workshops. So I was in a very funny dream. It's things that, you know, kind of one of the techniques for inducing Lucy Dreaming is reality testing during the day. And then hopefully that habit carries over in the night. And when you see something strange, you wonder like, am I dreaming? So I did this reality test. And it came back positive. Yeah, I'm dreaming. And, you know, like the un-evolved human that I am, I started flying around because it's really fun to find out about it. In my defense, the test was like, can I fly to see if I was dreaming or not? And so then I could fly. So I was like, I'm dreaming. But immediately this goal started chasing me, kind of like the death either out of Harry Potter, and it was tracking me. And I could speed up. And it was just, but I remembered the teaching that you don't run, you don't run away. This is an opportunity. So I stopped midair and I hovered and I turned to the goal. And I said, what can you teach me? And it transformed into like a little me, like a young me, but with a cane, like an old man's cane. So if that, okay, this is, you know, time is an illusion. And as soon as I said that in my mind, and all the sounds stopped, and the little me took the cane and swept it across this table that had all this glass vases. And as they shatter, but there's no sound. And they all went into these little, the shards went up and became these points of energy in a matrix all around. And I thought, saw new that he, that he was showing me this fabric of reality. At the basis that reality was being built upon. And it was so overwhelming. And I started vibrating in the dream so violently. And I vibrated myself awake. I felt like I was vibrating in the bed. I think that that was a dream of knowledge. And I think that it was too much, and it still is too much for my mind to comprehend. And so I don't, this is not necessarily an answer to question about dreaming, but kind of a transformative thing. And I feel like that's something I can work on. I try to join meditation, go back. And just kind of, you know, like you stretch a muscle, muscle, like a ballerina, the more you stretch, the more you'll be able to, like, encompass it. So that type of scene is very similar to the what folks in the workshop we're talking about. Just any kinds of visions and askings for healings. One really cool point about the lucid dreaming healing that Charlie Moly talked about is that your subconscious is there to protect you. And it won't let you do anything you're not ready for. So for example, some people would have very specific plans. You would have dream plans. And some of the plans, like I want to confront my a sandwich or something like that. And a dream character would come by. I just want to example with a, you know, a waiter with a tray, and the car says, you're not ready yet. So it's kind of like guiding. And Charlie argues that it's even safer than talk therapy because you're your own guardian there. So that's a flavor of it. I want to share a bit about that. And just observe, A, even when you're talking, you know, things get trapped in our cells. And when you spoke, you got emotional, right? Like, so it's real time for you. And so to me, that shows you what kind of impact that has on the on the cells, right? And you're still probably learning and healing from that. So thank you for for sharing. When I moderated your talk, I think what you shared with us was in the dream, you check the wake if you want to know if you wake up or not. I think you did the test you did was see a clear finger, right? No, it might have been straight. Yes, straights or poke it through your hand. Yeah, so you can stretch your finger, you know, and so there's that. I remember, I think it was Robert said, I only did it for about a week and then I stopped doing it. And I'm talking to you now, I want to get back into lucid dreaming. I'll look for some of these courses. But I can't, I can't quote it perfectly, but it's in the, I said episode nine with Robert Wagner. It's in there how he says to get into it. I think for him, it was like, look for something that doesn't really belong, right? Like something weird. I want to say really quickly, Robert Wagner, the, the IAN's website has, course, at least one course with Robert Wagner that, yeah, I just want to sign up for it. So that example, that looking for something that doesn't belong, it sounds like that was a night time intention, right? That's kind of like a hypnotic suggestion you gave to yourself, going to sleep, right? And then it could also be used for these daytime reality testings, which is what I talked about with a stretching finger is that so you could use that check look for something that doesn't be long during the daytime. Just do it 10 times during the day. Just look around. Is there anything in this room that doesn't belong? And then because our creatures of habit, if you're lucky, that habit carries over into your dream and you do it out of habit rather than in response to this, you know, not a suggestion. Either way, it could do that. Your book, The Vibes King. So first of all, IAN, see mentioned ions. We're going to put that in the show notes. They got lots of material. They got, they got great everything everybody. They're kind of one of their earlier pioneers on this kind of discussion that we're having doing research. So check out their their website. Why vibes matter, understanding your energy and learn how to use it wisely is by a good doctor here. Garrett, can you tell me what are these three kinds of vibes and a little description about them? You talk to me. Sure, yeah. In the book, to make it digestible, because vibes, people use the word vibes in so many ways that's very popular to talk about it. And so I just use a very simple model of a mind, which has the the conscious mind, the subconscious mind and the super conscious mind to divide up the vibes into conscious vibes, subconscious vibes and super conscious vibes. So conscious, the conscious mind and conscious vibes are the kind that are out there for your senses to pick up and you intentionally set it up that way. You know, the vibe of the wedding is rustic, something or other. And so you put things around or just the clothes you wear as though you smile at somebody to send out these vibes and you pick it up. So there's a conscious vibes, subconscious vibes are the ones that so many different kinds of it. Basically, your body's picking them up, but you don't notice it consciously. So there are chemicals that, for example, have very profound impacts on our the vibe we get about somebody, not smells. There are chemicals that we cannot smell that impact, for example, libido. And again, at the level of molecular changes, so measuring testosterone can be changed by a chemical that's emitted from women's tears. Can't smell it, but we have receptors that pick it up in our body. We don't know it, but we get this vibe about them that changes. So that's a subconscious vibe. And then the super conscious vibe is where we talk about the super conscious mind, which is where the division between the illusion of us being separate can not this material world, but these other realms where it's kind of the the god realm or the all is one where we're all united. And that's where I believe that these bio field therapies when they when they work kind of the radiation model, it's by connecting the energies through this, the super conscious mind. And so that's kind of the framework to talk about it all. I'm going to tie in psychedelics with this. Why I want to talk to you about it is I kind of resonate with the idea that it's like, hey, call the universe, the universe's answer, no, hang out. You got your message. Now do your work because you realize what you're experiencing, what you think you know is not complete. And there's more to this world. And now learn she gone learn how to tap into it naturally. There is residue. I'm I've had jill boat tailor on my thing. She does say what it does to the brain. And some people are at risk of becoming schizophrenic after like, there's a your close and it's what's going to do it. I see people that have used it and it's changed their lives like people that are raging alcoholics that have done it three or four times and they've given up alcohol. So you're the researcher, though, not me. I had my own personal experience where it scared the hell out of me. And I've had really awesome experiences non-medicated. Like I've had those without any medication. So that was my preamble to because maybe the first person that loves psychedelics, everybody that I've had on, I don't know where they're going to come from. But interesting enough, they all say it's a one to three time experience. Help you see some of your shadow, help you see what's out there that you're not aware of. And now go and do the work naturally, tap into your higher self naturally. Don't use the medication as a crutch or the residue can leave in the body. But there are people that love it. You may be one of those people and I'm open to both sides. That's, gosh, a lot in that. Well, I talk about it in the book and I basically agree with your sense of it. I want to tie it into Qi Gong too, it reminds me of something. I do think it can be something that opens your mind. And as you mentioned, you can, it can show you shadow. I think that another thing that it can do more generally and kind of more universally is demonstrate at a, at a knowing level, the interconnectedness of everything. That the illusion of separation is, is obliterated. I think by least every type of set, second element that I've tried and almost everybody I've spoken to, that's one of the universal experiences. And that's one of the things I've heard by many as well is we're all connected, right? And that's, you know, by the way, the driving premise of the Institute of Neuatic Sciences drives all of this science. So back to your point, I do think it's a very useful tool to kind of break up, break up that illusion and then realize, okay, the truth under that. And that's, so that means it's there to access naturally. So I couldn't agree with you more. And Ty and I wanted to make with Chigong is that's also the way I feel about Chigong masters. If someone's, if you're going to, I mean, it's like, I want to, what's a good Chigong master? You know, how can I know one's good? And it's so difficult because there's no certification program and not just Chigong, but, you know, and there's so many different traditions. I think the most important thing is if, if someone's coming to heal you, if they're going to, I think that's the similarity is something to turbo boost you to give you the sense of why your energy feels like and to give you techniques to learn to do it yourself then just part of your daily life. So I just think that's very similar to psychedelics, psychedelics showing you, you're connected to everything. And I think Chigong kind of intervention is to show you that you have access to your, the energy of your body and that you can influence it. And so in both cases, it's a matter of, okay, that, now you've got a taste of that. You know what to then nurture and cultivate in your own way. And when I work with people, they'll, to some of them know my story there, the thing I'm going to judge them if they do psychedelics and I, and I don't, I, what I share kind of what you just reiterated as well is if you're going to use it as a crutch as a cheat, I think it's dangerous. I don't know if it works that way. I think you do both, right? You're cultivating your process and you're using this as a catalyst to accelerate and support it. But you know, you can't, you know, just like we, there's no pill, right, to fix things, right? You still have to do your work. They're just catalysts. So they're to support, right? And then you the body heals. You know, like the, when you get a splinter at cast, it doesn't do the healing. It creates an environment so the bone can set and heal, right? So I think that's it. Like anything can be abused. So I'm not against them. For me, I wouldn't do it again. Like I can't believe my nervous system survived that. Like how, how disregulated I was for close to a year after, how much energy and work I had to do it myself and bring in colleagues. By the way, I called Bill up, but he was still alive back then. I broke my bond. He goes, whatever you do with your back, do you think you can help me? Because I am really damaged. You know, I know that I mean, I was struggling. I was not well. Like, like the nervous system, but there's a part of me that was like, holy shit, I disregulated my nervous system. I am broken. And I had to do everything to regulate it again, right? Accupunch or my herbal and my practice. And I mean, as I say, what I do it again, no, I do I love where I'm at today. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. The in closing then, do you have a practice? Are you practicing lucid dreaming? What are you doing to tap into the subconscious and the super conscious? What do you do for your, what's your playful way of kind of tap it into this quantum entanglement or this, this field of just the only thing consistent. Yeah. I do a lot of playing trying this and that, but the consistent thing I do is still I still do the Chigong, the personal meditation Chigong. My favorite meditation is called dumping buckets. I describe it in the book. It's super simple. Part of the way I'm able to continue to do that every day is, you know, it could take as short as a minute, right? And you can extend it, but just a minute of Chigong is what I do. Yeah. My, I do five minutes, five minutes. So yeah, I'd like this long thing. It's just five minutes. Yeah. I'm dumping buckets. What's the intention behind it when you say dumping buckets is your meditation? Is that a Chigong or is that your meditation? It's a Chigong style and it's just kind of the visualization. Again, it's just like to imagine the energy flowing and it's like at the movement in the body and I'll share with you what I, you know, this is the book that I'll give it is I can say really quickly now. You don't need to get the book is a self test to test that you're moving the key in your body. And this I learned with my dad and Beijing. So it's a hot hand test. So there's different ways to do it. But for you, put your hands together so that the tips of your fingers are completely aligned and then have a buddy mark your thumb pads right here or you can put a pen in your mouth to do it. So that after you do it, you can measure, you can put your hands back in the same way. Alright, so this is just showing your hands are lined up. Then you just sit and you do your meditation like dumping buckets or whatever meditation like that basically so that you're quiet in your mind and you're basically accessing your energy, your cheat. So then when you didn't again, just a minute or five minutes. So then you do the test, the hot hand test. You just imagine and we won't do it now, but you just imagine that you one of your hands is heating up. However you like it's burning up. It's on fire. You're to begin in boiling water lava, feeling it turn red and literally 30 seconds a minute. And then you start you line your hands back up with the line and you look and you see that that hand is expanded. It's taller, which is on one level totally mundane. You're basically influencing the micro circulation of your hand. So more blood is going there and it makes it swell. But the Chinese principle is edao, chi dao. So where the mind goes, the chi goes. And so I mean to me, it gives me and I think it gives other people the sense, oh, I, my mind can really influence the energy in my body. If I can make blood flow into my hand, that means I can access the energy of my body. Now from a medical point of view, micro circulation, lack of micro circulation is one of the foundations of almost every disease. So if you can improve micro circulation, I mean, you can influence all those diseases. So it's a fun, simple test to see just for yourself, don't compare yourself to anybody else just to yourself. Like, okay, am I, have I got my mind, my monkey mind under control today? Let me just test it. And like, okay, yes, I'm, I'm centered. I can do things now. So anyway, it's a fun self test. And you talk with circulation fertility too, by the way, you know, blood flow, we want that. They, my chi gong su pang su pang li, I think is her name. I'm having my brain melt here to remember it's su pang or su ping. But I think her experiment that we did where we took alcohol. And then we did chi gong around the alcohol. And you could taste that the difference, like one day came almost like water, like it was incredible. Like I was like, this is unbelievable. Yeah. Everybody, everybody was able to do that. All right. We, you have given me so much of your time, Garrett. I'm thank you for the generosity. I want people to know how to connect with you. So the book is a Y vibes matter, understanding your energy and learn how to use it wisely. Also ions, the net, the no edic Institute of Noetic Sciences, check out the website for courses. Where can we find you? Do you have a website, Instagram, Facebook? What's, what can we share in the social media that you would like us to direct people to, to find your book or to find more about you? I am only on the ions website. I'm not on social media. The only thing is we just launched a course that's based on the book. So it's kind of an online course you can go through. I go through the book. I give some stuff that's not in the book and it's going to, you know, it's a, it's a fun course. So we're going to put the no edic science website in our show notes. You can find Garrett in there as well. Check out his book and he has an online course that's connected to the book as well. So you can find more of that. Garrett, thanks so much for taking the time today. And thanks for sharing these stories and for doing all the research that you're doing. As I shared at the beginning, there's a department that wants to believe and I'm also looking for a little scientific rigor. So it's easier to believe. Yeah. Well, it's a pleasure. Thank you. If you're looking for support to grow your family, contact Accubalance Wellness Center. At Accubalance, they help you reach your peak fertility potential through their integrative approach using low level laser therapy, fertility acupuncture and naturopathic medicine. Download the Accubalance Fertility Diet and Dr. Brown's video for mastering manifestation and clearing subconscious blocks. Go to Accubalance.ca. That's acubalance.ca. Thank you so much for tuning into another episode of Conscious Fertility, the show that helps you receive life on purpose. Please take a moment to subscribe to the show, and join the community of women and men on their path to peak fertility, and choosing to live consciously on purpose. I would love to continue this conversation with you, so please direct message me on Instagram at Lorne Brown official. That's Instagram, Lorne Brown official. Or you can visit my websites, LorneBrown.com, and acubalance.ca. Until the next episode, stay curious, and for a few moments, ring your awareness to your heart center, and breathe.