Why Trump's Self-Destruction Is Finally Happening

It is hard to truly express how bad things are for Donald Trump at this point. It might be truly that the downfall is in progress dramatically. Why is Donald Trump so self-destructed? He charged into this second term with more aggression, more venom, more determination than almost any president certainly in modern memory. He didn't really make a political calculation on what their ultimate effect would be. Policies which are now almost every single one of them coming back to haunt him. It very well may be the worst Republican results in recent memory. Michael Joanna Oh, my goodness. Michael Wolfe author of four books on Donald Trump, two books on Rupert Murdoch, an all-round co-host of Inside Trump's Head. I have never seen you bar once with a tie on. I can't believe that's true. Never once in 25 years. Once, once I saw you at a memorial we both went to and you were wearing a tie then. It was a memorial for John Homeans, a former editor at New York magazine and we were both at a funeral. Well, you were tied to a funeral, although some people don't. But we were rather depressingly in the overflow room. We got there, I think, too late to make the main hall of St. Mark's church. You see, that's what you remember about the funeral where you were seated. Of course, and we were actually seated in the overflow, which was in the outside garden, which is, I guess, by second Avenue, right? So I just remember I couldn't hear much of the speeches because it was drowned out by the traffic. Again, again, we're making it about you. We're making it about me, Michael, but what I really want to know is, why are you wearing a tie? As I just had lunch at the Garrett Club, the Garrett Club is a British men's club with an emphasis on people in the theater, I believe. But nevertheless, you must wear a tie. It's maybe the last place on earth that requires a tie and jacket, but I suit it up for the occasion. So, and remind people why you're in London? And no reason at all, just for the pleasure of it. Just for the pleasure of it. I've realized your year has a rhythm to it. You seem to have a year, you have your, you know, spring trip to Italy, your full trip to London. Yeah, and this makes me sound like a, what, like a, I don't know, like a man of leisure. Like an international jet setter. When all I do is, in fact, work. I am, I am in London, in the United Kingdom, not working and spent the weekend at a friend's farm in County Durham in the north. Matter of fact, I stepped over from the County Durham border to the Yorkshire, into Yorkshire, thinking of you. Good, God's own country, Yorkshire, it just doesn't have very good Wi-Fi as a poor podcast production team, they're very well. And actually, few as in listeners won't know this well, but we actually tried to do a podcast on Saturday and we couldn't get it done because the tech was so bad. So we. Yes, so I think we should stay podcast, we should stay out of the north of England apparently. Okay, so Michael, we've got a lot to discuss, we must, must remind people, there are just a few tickets left to see us live, terragram, ballroom in October, October 20th, go to B-stock pub slash ITH live, B-stock pub slash ITH live, or ticket master to book your tickets. And come and meet me and Michael, we're going to be there. I guess we have to be there. We have to be there, we're going to have a very fun live conversation, it'll be two weeks before the midterms. And it's what is it, 28 days today? Yikes, closing in on him. Closing in on him. So we're going to talk about that and the drop in the size of his rally crowds. We're going to ask why he's self sabotaging. We're going to talk about two storytellers who were precursors to Trump in a way, both of whom have died, both of whom died on the same day strangely. And relevant at least one of them that I am in the UK, because this is someone in English of renown and what's the opposite of renown? Well, he was disgraced. He was a disgrace. He had very much a very similar career to Donald Trump in many ways. He wasn't actually Prime Minister of Britain. He think his highest typo was, well, he rose to the House of Lords and he was deputy chairman of the Conservative Party. And would certainly have, certainly saw himself as a Prime Minister, a why not me Prime Minister. And seems, and is one of those people who I think, I think paves a road to Donald Trump. You can take this person, this person's name, by the way, is Jeffrey Archer. One of the best-selling novelists of the age, and he was disgraced and went to jail and we can discuss this. But he was that kind of person who rose to a certain level and then was failed for his hubris and arrogance and, well, because he was a crook. But Donald Trump is that same person, but who was not failed. So it says, though, Donald Trump stands on the shoulders of these former narcissists and crooks. And also, the heart of Jeffrey Archer's disgrace was, harsh money, paid to a prostitute. Did he or didn't he? And then he, that sounds a little familiar. It does sound familiar, Stormy Daniels, anybody, so the parallels are remarkable. But I remember Jeffrey Archer, particularly because when I was working in Fleet Street for the Daily Telegraph, I worked on a column called the Peterborough column, which at the time was a sort of gossipy diary column where people would drop little snippets about their enemies or, you know, they were always trying to settle scores. And there was one character who used to call in with stories about Jeffrey Archer. And it was, of course, Jeffrey Archer, himself, he used to call in. And then you would take the story, basically, by dictation from him because he was a friend of the editor of the column. And then you would say, and who is the source of this story? And he'd go friends of Jeffrey Archer, friends of Jeffrey Archer. So you would write these stories as, you know, friends of Jeffrey Archer said he was spotted dining with Margaret Satcher today, blah, blah, blah, blah. And very much liked Donald Trump with his John Barron. He would pretend to be a PR agent called John Barron and call people, probably you at that point. Well, no, he would actually, most of all, call the New York Post, where likewise, he was a friend of the editors. And so these John Barron, Wink, Wink leaks would then appear in the New York Post. Do you want to talk a little bit about just the Baroque nature of Jeffrey Archer? Yeah, well, I'm going to let you do this because this is really your, I mean, he really is a fleets street creation like Donald Trump was a creation of the New York Post. Yes. Okay. Well, I'm going to read a little bit from the times of London's orbit because he, he, he would created his own path. He actually left school with three O levels at the age of 16, but then emerged later as a PE teacher at Dover College, quite how he got a teacher qualification, nobody knows, but he says that he sailed to California via Scotland and the Panama Canal on a tramp steen up steamer, he gained a BA in physiology and psychology at Berkeley, which they have no recollection of and raised half a million pounds for the YMCA in Canada. And these fantasies sort of concealed the fact that he volunteered for the Army after leaving school. He was sent to Sanders, which is the British equivalent of West Point as an officer cadet, but lasted only a few months. He may then have spent some months in California, though without taking any kind of degree course, but by May 1960, he was back in London and he was a member of the Metropolitan Police. He left shortly after joining to find his job as a teacher and from there on, he soon appeared on the school list as Jeffrey Archer, FIFPC, BSC, no one knows where he got his BSC from, and the FIFPC. He really represents nothing more than a correspondence course certificate in bodybuilding. His degree was just fantasy, but then he got himself to Oxford to study for a diploma in education. And of course, you know, if you look back then, it was much harder to check anybody. You know, nobody had answer machines, you know, the phones didn't work as efficiently as they did now. There was no internet. So you couldn't sort of look through people's archives. He just had someone's personality, really, and whether or not you trusted them. And he told a great story, as we know, because he went on to sell 300 million copies of his books. But he went to Oxford to study for a diploma in education. On the strength of a letter from Dover College recommending him, saying that he had A levels in history, English, and geography, and that he'd done a physiology course at the University of California, none of which was true. But he got into Oxford. He did a year there, and it became his social stepping stone. It's where he met his wife, who later became very important in his trial, where he was accused of sleeping with a prostitute called Monica Coglan. And he goes to Oxford, he emerges, he then becomes an MP, does an ill-advised investment about four years into being a member of Parliament, which makes it look as if he's going to be bankrupt. So he leaves Parliament to write a book about what happened to him, because I think it's the only thing he can think of how to get out of this marriage, he's facing bankruptcy. And the book, of course, goes on to be a huge, huge bestseller. And gets him back into the public eye, he then becomes the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party under Margaret Satcher, who has an enormous crush on him, because he's very compelling, socially compelling. And then he decides after the star newspaper writes a story about him sleeping with a prostitute that he is going to sue them. He sues them and he wins. And it's a very famous case in Britain, because they summon the prostitute or sex worker, as I guess they're called now, to the court. And she recounts that he has a spotty back. And he is asked to remove his shirt, where it appears that he has a clear skinned back. And then the judge in his summing up refers to Mary Archie, Lady Archie, as she is now, who is a chemist and was a well-known chemist, actually, at Cambridge University, when they made a very compelling social couple on the London circuit. And he looked at her and he said, is she not fragrant, i.e. And I think there was a great line, actually, which the New York Times had in its. The judge said this. The judge said to the jury, look at Mrs. Archie, is she not fragrant? Why would he need to go to a prostitute and have sex when he's got the lovely, bountiful Mary Archie at home? And he won the case. He won 500,000 pounds against the star, which at the time was an enormous settlement. And then it turns out that he, much of his defense, was fabricated. And the accusations that were made against him turned out to be largely true. And then he went to, that's what, that's at the point that he went to jail. So he went to jail for, for, for, for perjury. He went to jail for perjury and it, and it came out. It was because he was running for London mayor. And the entire fleet street knew that he'd perjured himself. It was a sort of open secret, but it was when he decided 1999 to run for mayor that people said enough, this guy, we're going to take him on. And they proved that he'd created fake diaries and that he'd, I think, paid someone to be a fake alibi for him. So he was sentenced to four years in jail. So step back for, for a moment, and let's make the comparison between Jeffrey Archer, disgraced novelist, but incredibly successful and would, and successful politician would be prime minister and Donald Trump. He was also obviously a made up figure. You know, Donald Trump's career is, is a reflection well of his father's money, but then of his, of the tales, he tells about himself, he, he elevates himself to this larger than life, slightly clownish, comical figure in New York, and not least the fall by writing a book, which sells millions and pawn millions of copies and, and completely made up book, made up to the extent that Donald Trump does not write it, probably does not read it. And it is written by a man by the name of Tony Schwartz, who, whose name I will bring up a little later in this podcast. But then Donald Trump, because of his, what, just, um, why not? And because of this incredible, because the, the intersection of narcissism and opportunism decides that he too, well, let's actually, before that, he becomes a figure of, of a fantasy figure on a reality television show. And then catapults himself into, uh, into politics. And whereas Jeffrey Archer is brought down as, as he, as he, um, as he might obviously have been because he's a liar and a cheat and a scoundrel, Donald Trump, a liar and a cheat and a scoundrel goes on to become the president of the United States. There are remarkable parallels. One thing I will say is that Jeffrey Archer had more of a sense of, uh, his own foolishness than there was a good quote that he gave to the times of London or the times of London, uh, around which he said, I had begun to believe that everything I did was bound to be a success. The downfall showed me that I wasn't a god. I was a normal mortal, well, able to make a bloody fool of myself, which I did. Um, and perhaps Donald Trump would, would have said that if at some point he was, did experience a downfall, but all of Donald Trump's downfalls, Donald Trump at least perceived as something that could be explained away by merely claiming that they were victories. But I think, you know, the broader sense that you, that you have here is that there is this incredible culture of narcissism. And it has pervaded public life of some of the, maybe the most successful people in public life turn out to be narcissists. And the only thing that they weren't previously was president of the United States. So we have just advanced this, um, advanced the disease of public life to a level that I don't think anyone quite ever foresaw. Perhaps Jeffrey Archer, who wrote novels basically about people like this, perhaps he foresaw. I think perhaps he did. And there's often also a trial in these people's lives, isn't there? Or some kind of legal situation, which has everybody gripped. And I cannot tell you how when Jeffrey Archer was, uh, suing the star, the entire country was on tentahooks about the verdict. It really was for us equivalent of a sort of OJ moment, those collective moments when the entire culture wants to talk about it, wants nothing more to talk about it. And I found the quote from the judge I was looking for. The judge was a guy called Bernard Colefield. He was the one that said is, you know, please take a look at Mary Archer. Is she not fragrance? And he says, you know, Mary to Mary Archer, would Jeffrey Archer have needed? And here's the quote, cold, unloving, rubber insulated sex in a CD hotel room. And you just thought, well, the judge, the judge was completely taken in by Jeffrey Archer. Anyway, it really was a huge case in the UK. And before we, we, um, and we should point out that we're bringing this up now because Jeffrey Archer has just died. And in our, we might add to our necrology here, Jim Baker, another absolute, complete, total narcissist, um, who, um, uh, you know, a, who, who builds a, um, an evangelical, a televangical empire and then was brought low and, um, and who is now gone to his reward. But also another figure. like Donald Trump, a figure, just a figure of a narcissism, a performer, a person who lived not only in public life, but for public life. I hadn't understood until I read The Obey that he and Tammy Faye had started the third largest theme park in America. It was in South Carolina and it was called the Heritage Park. It literally saw millions of visitors. These people all have bankruptcies in their past, too. So Jeffrey Archie had to leave Parliament because of a pending bankruptcy. Donald Trump dogged by bankruptcy, bailed out by the Russians and Jim and Tammy Faye, terrible business people, but able to find people to raise money for them. No, well, also, well, it's not just that they're terrible business people. These are huge risk takers. I mean, these are the pathology to these people is clear and it's something that they have in common. And Donald Trump, and again, I think the point to make here is Donald Trump is a person among the kinds of people who would rightly have been brought down, brought down by their own arrogance, brought down by their hubris, brought down by narcissism, brought down by these incredible and ridiculous risks they take. Somehow, and that's why we're in the position that we are in, this we have gotten so used to these people and so in a way, accepting of these people, that Donald Trump gets to become the president of the United States. Well, and Jeffrey Archie, who actually was working up until the day he died, he was actually on a stage, signing books with another British guy called Giles Brandruth, said that in 2024, the Americans will re-elect Donald Trump because three quarters of them are not very intelligent. So it sort of ties Jeffrey Archie back to Donald Trump because game recognizes game. Well, let's go on to, you know, we said that Trump has, you know, has somehow not met his downfall, but never say never and it is never too late. And in fact, in this moment, I mean, we may well be seen, the first act of his fall, and maybe it's not the first act, maybe it's the second act. But, and I want to go back to Tony Schwartz, who wrote Donald Trump's book, The Art of the Deal. Tony Schwartz, I've known for a very long time, and we were both young reporters on a magazine called New Times in the 1970s. New Times, which I'm sure felt like a very modern title at the time. But I got a note from from Tony the day before yesterday, which I still haven't responded to, if Tony is listening to this, but I will. And he said, he said he hoped I was writing another, another book because he just couldn't fathom why Donald Trump was so self-destructive. And let me say that Tony is one of those people who really understands Donald Trump. I mean, he was his ghost writer on The Art of the Deal. Just imagine that. And Tony has since expressed an enormous amount of contrition for his part in the creation of the Donald Trump mythology. But I think that that is now the oppressing question. I mean, in terms of certainly trying to understand Donald Trump, and possibly in terms of understanding what may be this turn in history. Why is Donald Trump so self-destructive? And just to recap where we are, and we've covered this, this is the sort of the story of our podcast now slightly more than a year, a year old, how many episodes? 174. 174 is that he charged into this second term with more aggression, more venom, more determination than almost any president certainly in modern memory, doing all sorts of things that were not thought out in which he didn't really make a political calculation on what their ultimate effect would be, policies which are now almost every single one of them coming back to haunt him, to haunt him in a way that it very well may be that the worst Republican, the worst Republican results in recent-- Right, in modern history. Which again is the policies that he did, the recklessness with which he went into Iran, sent ice into various cities, employed the National Guard. Again, goes back to your point about risk taking, that these were risks, unnecessary risks, which will undoubtedly come back to haunt him. And we have a very good story in our newsletter, Punch Up, which is written by Tom Latchem, about the size of the rallies and Trump at one point, you know, boasted that a small rally for him would be 20,000 people is now struggling to pull in half those numbers into places. He was in Alabama, he was in Ohio and just tiny numbers. And if you think in, you know, 2000-- No, no, no, hold on, I gotta stop you there. These are not tiny numbers. I challenge any Democrat to pull in 10,000 people. They may have, in his better days, gotten 20,000 people, but these are still big crowds in any kind of political contact. They're not big for Donald Trump. They're comparing, if you're comparing apples with apples, Trump is less able to pull a big crowd now than he could even in 2024. Yeah, absolutely, but nevertheless, these are still what it says is that Trump still has a hold on his base, which is what makes Donald Trump, Donald Trump, and which makes him still a political threat, you know, and that will be the next chapter of this, will be how does Donald Trump may have lost his majorities, but he still has this incredibly devoted vocal minority. And so we don't really know how that's gonna, that's gonna play out. But the question is, why would he want to, want to retreat to his minority when other, as any other politician, at this point, beginning quite a number, would have to have begun quite a number of months ago, look at his numbers, look at his, look at the politics of where he was and begin to adjust to that. Okay, I am my, my numbers are sinking here. Obviously, obviously, my immigration policies are incredibly unpopular, having masked men in the streets. That's not a good look. Shouldn't I adjust that? The, the, the war in Iran, should I have gone into that? I'm, I'm, I'm a president who got elected on the promise of no more forever wars. Shouldn't I have thought about that? Shouldn't I have had an exit strategy? I mean, this is where the self-destructive nature of this, of this comes in and we can go to Ken Pax than somebody like that. I'm going down, I'm the president of the United States and I have all this political capital and I'm gonna spend it on, on somebody who is the, the own, possibly the only Republican in Texas who can lose the statewide race. Well, similarly with Darlene Graham, his backing for Darlene Graham, even after she has a disastrous debate with a candidate who is a popular local congressman and Darlene Graham is now in danger and facing a real challenge in South Carolina from Annie Andrews who is a popular local pediatrician. What has Donald Trump done? He's doubled down on her. He's giving her money and, you know, he's doubled down on his support for her. I would still be amazed if she loses, that would be an indication that there is nothing left to Donald Trumpism. I don't think she is going to lose, but let's see. Certainly, Annie Andrews is coming within strength. striking difference. Let's let's say that. And I don't think Darlene Graham helped herself when she said that she wasn't an expert in national security. Well, she certainly didn't help herself, but she did win in that race. So, but so Donald Trump is now out on the on the on the hustings, basically trying to sell Donald Trump. Basically, he is that he is there. He is waging a campaign for himself, although he is not on the ballot. And basically him being the most the issue, the red hot issue in this campaign, he is making himself more hotter than ever, more visible, more, more getting in the way of every Republican who was now on the ballot. Well, and as come back and was caught on a off my side, our numbers have gone down since Trump or loser, since Trump started getting out there, it's really not helping anybody. And then he was caught on another off my complaining that he had lost all control of his campaign in Texas, and that it was all being dictated by the White House. So, this feels very much like Donald Trump, you know, putting himself back when officers like to be, which is the center of attention, he can't bear it when it's not about him. He's telling people, I'm not on the ballot, so put me on the ballot. Imagine I am on the ballot, which is what it appears that they are doing. And you know, one of the things that Donald Trump puts on the ballot as he inserts himself into this race is the war in Iran. So, the the single, I mean of all the catastrophes of the second Trump administration. And I would argue that every policy has been certainly from a political standpoint, a catastrophe. The war in Iran is the leads heads the list. And now we've had a situation this in the last few days where the the Iranians speaking of the UK, where I am, the Iranians have targeted US, US or US bombers that are stationed in the UK, targeted them in such a way that they've had to flee. Right. The bombers came back to the US yesterday, but also there's been strange, I mean, it appeared that the Brits had actually let those who are responsible for this, they gave them bail. Yeah, well, I mean, I think that they had no, they gave them bail because they failed to come up with the evidence to link them to this. I mean, it's a classic British story in that it was a farmer out for a morning walk that saw masked men getting in and out of a truck nearby. And now it looks as if there was actually an attempt to blow up US military aircraft on British soil. And this is an extraordinary turn of events. I mean, we are now, we are now in retreat effectively. So we have done, I mean, all of everything that Donald Trump, Trump has, has portrayed this war as, as a, this, you know, in incredible demonstration of American military might, we've destroyed them. We've obliterated them. We're going to annihilate them and they are now coming for us. So what he has managed to do, of course, is to make the world less safe for the United States of America. Mm-hmm. Well, and yesterday, I don't know if you saw this, but there was a remarkable moment in a speech he was giving where he suggested the Iranians bomb or blow up LA and San Diego. This was Donald Trump speaking to a Republican rally in Nebraska. And the president sought to justify the Iran war as necessary for keeping the world safe. He then suggested there could be strikes on the US, including LA and San Diego. He said they could take out a city, let them take, let them take out Los Angeles, let them take out San Diego. I mean, it's kind of madness, what's going on. And it wasn't entirely clear what he meant, but Gavin Newsom immediately jumped on it. And so this is deranged and dangerous. Karen Bass is the mayor of LA just said, this is not what American presidents are supposed to do. This compromise is the city's safety. The role of a president is to protect the country, not to actively threaten it and encourage attacks on American lives. It really does seem like he slightly lost it here. Well, I mean, I think I think what he is trying to say is that if the Iranians had have developed a nuclear capability that they could then theoretically take out American cities. Now that would be quite a leap even for even once they do have a nuclear capability. So I mean, but let's give him the benefit of that doubt. I mean, obviously during the Cold War politicians were always warning that New York or Washington could be, could be the subject of a nuclear attack. But that's not really the thing that's not going to happen. But what could happen in this new world of drones is that there could, yes, there absolutely could be an Iranian, the Iranians could target, find targets in American cities. I mean, we are exposed in a way that we have never been before because of this irresponsible war. Okay, let's just play that clip actually. And again, remember, with the war, it's just artificial. It's a little bit high. It's a small price to pay for keeping the world safe, keeping our country safe. They can take out a city. Let them take, let them take out Los Angeles, let them take out San Diego. That's, this is a large price to pay. And it's going to be almost overwhelming. I mean, that's a very odd thing to include in your campaign speech. It's a very small price to pay. I mean, what is he talking about? And then you've got the crowd cheering. I mean, it's just crazy dangerous rhetoric at this point. No, I mean, this is self-destructive. I know he's, this is beyond beyond the most, he's the man is out of control. I mean, and so the question is, is he out of control because he realizes that defeat is coming toward him or is he is he out of control because it's not about him because he's just inserting himself doing whatever he can. And his, his, his, his basic method of getting attention is just to, just to say whatever comes into his head. So this may look ridiculous, but we're talking about it, which is the point. Right. So one of the other things that strikes me as interesting is that he's now agreed to pay for from his own super pack the ads that he's been running, which of course everybody's attention, because A there on its football season here in the US and they're on during football games, but it also comes up at the bottom saying paid for by the US government. So these are taxpayers dollars. These are taxpayer dollars. Four ads for essentially Donald Trump. Many of them are just ads from his 2024 presidential campaign. Just retool to be for the midterms. There's been a huge outcry in the last few days about why are the taxpayers paying for this. This should, this is illegal. And he initially defended it. And now he said, okay, okay, I'm going to pay for it. My super pack will pay for it. And J.D. Vance was out. He was asked by it. And he said, well, these aren't political ads. They're not really about the campaign. They're about, you know, these are ads for America, which again, complete nonsense. And J.D. Vance made to look ridiculous again by his boss, who's now saying, well, my super pack's going to pay for them. Right. And this was just, let's try to get away with this. Why not? And they got caught. And we still haven't seen. I'd like to see this check being written. So, you know, but this is again, this is just that, that Trumpian moment. Yeah, I'm going to try anything. If it doesn't work, then we'll figure something else out. Well, it hasn't worked with the reflecting pool, which is also very bad news for him. Tour guides in DC are saying that business is down by 50% that international tourists don't want to come to DC because they know it's now a construction site. And American tourists don't want to come because they're anxious about the National Guard. And they also don't want to come if things are shrouded in scaffolding like the Kennedy Center, which has a tar pool in over its name and is now closed. And the reflecting pool, not reflecting anything other than terrible decision-making on who was supposed to repair it. - It is hard to truly express how bad things are for Donald Trump at this point. And I think that people are sort of hedging their bets because it might be truly that the downfall is in progress dramatically. And there's another data point that everybody is looking at, which is the Hispanic vote. And that is shaping up to be one of the great political reversals of the, certainly of the Trump era and maybe of the modern political era. I mean, it really looked in 2024 and this has been trending in that way that he had somehow gotten a ownership of the Hispanic vote, that it was trending, that it had trended toward him and would continue to trend toward him. And in that remake, essentially remake the underlying support of the Republican Party. And that may have been one of the things that gave him the confidence to march into his second term and do literally anything that he wanted to do. But that vote we have, or all of the indicators say has reversed, dramatically reversed itself and is in full retreat from Donald Trump. - And yet you also have the situation in Brazil where amazingly Bolsonaro, the former president who's currently in jail for corruption and for trying to stage a coup, he lost their last election to a left-wing candidate, very popular candidate. And now Sunday's election has led to a runoff and the son of Bolsonaro looks like he may get into power. I mean, again, also very Trumpian Bolsonaro was a friend of Trump's. - I wanna emphasize how close the Trump movement and the Bolsonaro family and the Bolsonaro movement have been with each other. People within the Trump orbit, within the Trump White House, have been closely tied to Bolsonaro, have been paid for by Bolsonaro. I don't think that there actually is another political figure in the world who has been as close to the Trump family, the Trump White House and the AIDS in the Trump universe. Everybody has been involved with the Bolsonaro's. So what does that say? I mean, it's interesting that Trump has kept his head down in this race, has not interjected himself. And the reason for that is that the Bolsonaro's have said stay out of this. But this is, and I think this is not an overreach to say that the Bolsonaro, that the return of the Bolsonaro's in Brazil is a Trump project. So you're in London, last time I was there, which was at the beginning of last month, I felt very strongly that people were extremely anxious about Russia, that Russia, Ukraine, will features much more prominently in conversation there than it does in the US because of proximity, obviously. But also there was real fear that Russia was beginning in Persians, they knew there were spy drones flying over countries that had been drones spotted over Poland. Do you feel that, has that come up in your stay? Have people raised the threat of Russia? - You know, well, as I said, I spent the weekend in County Durham on quite a large farm and the concerns were the cows and the sheep's and I think the plural of sheep is just sheep, actually. - The cows and the sheep, you're right. But there seemed to be many, many, many, you know, one of those fields of sheep, Jesus. Anyway, that's, so there was no talk of Russia. There was no talk of Russia. There was actually scant talk of Donald Trump, not much talk of Cornell, but mostly it was cows. - Mostly it was cows because you were actually in the area that was the first part of Britain to go for Brexit, that whole part of Britain went very early for Brexit. So actually, you're living in a political, you were staying in a political hotbed, even if the only conversation was of cows and sheep. I have one more Jeffrey Archers story, actually, which is that some years ago, I was on MSNBC before it was MS now and we were discussing, I think it was something to do with the Royal Family and they said, we're going to page in, we've got a guest in London and the guest turned out to be Jeffrey Archers, so it was Jeffrey Archer and me discussing whatever it is about the Royal Family. And over my headphones, I heard the producer in the New York studio where I was sitting, that they were in their glass, behind a glass wall, I was in the studio, they were behind a glass wall, they were in the production. Bay, they said to me, just tell me about Jeffrey Archer, tell me about Jeffrey Archer, so I said, oh, god, Jeffrey Archer, no, Taurus. And I went into some detail about the case with the prostitute and then the perjury. And I said, everybody knew he'd been with Monica Cogland, the whole of Fleet Street knew. Anyway, Jeffrey Archer and I argued about the Royal Family, whatever, I think I was anti the Royal Family, he was pro. He said to me, actually, he said to me, it was a very clever technique he did, which threw me off my, which threw me off my train of thought, which was, he said, now I heard you, Joe Annackels, describing me to your producer. And he didn't obviously say what I'd said, but he said this in the middle of a live broadcast to me. And then I was, of course, immediately thinking. And at the end of the show, he said, you'll be hearing from my lawyers. Of course, another technique of these people, because I haven't said anything that wasn't true. But the producer from London then phoned in after the show to say that, in fact, Jeffrey Archer had been sitting in the studio with his two sons. And my voice had come over, describing his antics with said prostitute. So it had been an awkward moment for all of them. And Jeffrey had felt forced to defend himself in front of his sons. Anyway, I never heard from his lawyers. - There's something I can say here, but I'm not sure what it is. - Yeah, I'm not sure you need to say anything. You don't need to say anything. Anyway, he was a character, Jeffrey Archer. And he sold 300 million books. And he worked, I think, with the same editor, Neil Belton, for the entirety of his career. And I remember Neil Belton being asked, because he apparently edited the books very heavily. It was really a sort of partnership between the two of them. Why he didn't just write his own novels. And he said, "Because I can't write the first draft." And Jeffrey writes a brilliant first draft. - Yeah, I know. I'm not exactly sure what that means, but-- - I think it means all writers are better with a really good editor. And I would also challenge that, but-- - Well, that's because you're such a good writer, Michael. You don't need an editor. I think that's what you're saying. I mean, Jeffrey Archer wrote a series of plays that were on in the West End. One of them, he told everybody he'd managed to write in eight hours. And someone, I remember one of the critics saying, "But which eight hours were they?" - Yes, there's also a line I can write better than anyone who can write faster. But I think the note to end on here is that there is this thing in public life about great characters. They succeed in public life again, because they are, they make themselves larger than life, because they are crazy, effectively. Because their need for attention is overwhelmed all else, including their own sanity and their own caution, which makes them self-destructed. And again, the anomaly is not that those people exist, but that one has become the president of the United States. - Michael, I hope you get to have tea or certainly dress for it at the Garrick Club. I remember having lunch there once with Michael Billington, the great Guardian Theatre reviewer. - I've already had my lunch at the Garrick Club. - But you can't have tea, you can't have afternoon tea. - Well, there's only so much. can do with the garage door, you can hang around there. I guess some guys do hang around there all day. Anyway, I was just a guest. - You are guests, you've got things to do. I will see you back where we will go once more inside Trump's head on Thursday and just a reminder, if you're going to be in L.A., if you need an excuse for a trip to L.A., we will be there October the 20th at the terror Graham ballroom. Tickets going fast. Did I say the date, October the 20th? - October the 20th. - I go to ticket master to get your tickets. Big thanks to our production team, Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Pasa, Heather Posaro, and Neil Rosenhouse. So the good news is we have so many B beast tier members now. There are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.