402. Why trauma bonding feels so much like love ...

I'm Lori Siegel and this is Mostly Human, a tech podcast through a human lens. This week, an interview with OpenAI CEO Sam Altman. I think society is going to decide that creators of AI products bear a tremendous amount of responsibility to the products we put out in the world. An in-depth conversation with the man who's shaping our future. My highest order bit is to not destroy the world of AI. Listen to Mostly Human on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. If you're trying to keep up with everything happening on and off the court, we've got you covered on the podcast, "Blagrant and Funny." You want to start with the first version for the Big Ten Coach of the Year? Oh, whatever. Do you like to? Yeah, sure. So you're a Spartan, is that what I'm getting? So whether your bracket is busted or you just want the real talk on what's happening during the tournament, Open your free I Heart Radio app, search, "Blagrant and Funny" with Carrie Champion and Jamel Hill and listen now. Presented by Capital One, Founding Partner of I Heart Women Sports. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins, but the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctor this particular test twice and so, inscratch? I doctor the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Regal S.B.A.N.D. Michael Manchini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura Scott's NL Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trap podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. You know Rol Dahl. He thought of Willie Wonka in the BFG. But did you know he was a spy? In the new podcast, the secret world of Rol Dahl. I'll tell you that story and much, much more. What? You probably won't believe it either. Was this before you wrote his stories? I must have been. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you. I was a spy. Listen to the secret world of Rol Dahl. On the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Ready for a different take on Formula One? Look no further than no grip. A new podcast tackling the culture of motor racing's most coveted series. Join me, Lily Herman, as we dive into the under-explored pockets of F1, including the story of the woman who last participated in a Formula One race weekend. The recent uptick in F1 romance novels, and plenty of mishaps scandals and sagas that have made Formula One a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to no grip on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello everybody. I'm Gemma Spek and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s. The podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments and transitions of our 20s, and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is so great to have you here back for another episode. I just want to let you know before we get into this episode that we are going to be discussing some intense subject matter today to do with. Physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, that sort of thing. So if that is something that you're particularly sensitive to or you don't really want to hear somebody talking about today, just giving you a heads up so you can skip this episode or maybe come back to it at a later time when you are feeling, you know, maybe in a more stable place. There will be some links to some resources and some assistance in the show description as well. Let's get into it. Today we are talking about trombo bonds and no, not two people who bond through hardship because I hate to break it to you. That is actually not a trombo bond. We are talking about a powerful kind of connection that forms between two people when one person, manipulates their own trauma or the trauma of the person that they are with to create a highly dependent, highly painful, highly manipulative relationship that is founded on the highs and lows of emotional gaslighting, maybe even emotional abuse, founded on hot and cold behavior, founded on betrayal and hurt rather than love. What nobody tells you about trombo bonds is how often people who think they would never be susceptible to this kind of thing end up in these relationships all of the time, because of how powerful inconsistency is at hijacking our brains reward system. When somebody gives you the most perfect fantasy version of love one day and then switches it into the most terrible kind of love the next, that emotional whiplash does something dangerous to your brain. It teaches you that if you just hold out a little bit longer, the good version is going to come back around. And so it leaves you holding on to potential and holding on to these terrible relationships and these terrible people because of the potential of reward. And that way, you know, this person, the person that people form a trauma bond with becomes both their biggest source of unhappiness but also their biggest source of happiness at times, because this person is the one who can give and take those things, who can give and take safety. People who have never experienced this may look at it from the outside and think, I don't know, why don't you just leave that person's obviously not good for you. Why don't you know you deserve better? Why don't you just walk away? But what they don't understand is the insanely powerful, neurobiological, psychological, physical, emotionally addictive patterns that this kind of relationship creates, which essentially mean that our own self preservation, our own instincts, our own emotions, our rationality, it all just gets so totally scrambled. I think what they don't realize is how smart abuses and partners can be how well they understand the mechanisms of insecurity and psychology and how well they can manipulate love. So this is exactly what we're going to be revealing and talking about today. If you have ever found yourself in this kind of trauma bond, if you are recovering and healing from a relationship that matches this pattern, or if you're just watching like a friend or or anybody in your life going through this and you're trying to understand like how you can help them. I think and I hope that this episode will bring you some clarity. So without further ado, let's get into the psychology of trauma bonds. Let's start by really clarifying that because this is totally essential, we really need to clarify what we mean by a trauma bond because it has been used very, very casually these days. And that is definitely diluted its meaning considerably, not because of anybody's poor intentions, just because of concept creep concept creep is essentially the casual expansion of serious terms to mean less and less serious things. And therefore take away the important meaning of these words. I think we have all heard of people who have become friends at a terrible workplace, you know joke that they are trauma bonded. Or people who have dealt with like the same tragic awful X will be like, how do you guys mean? Oh, we like we have like a trauma bond, we're like trauma bonded. And is very different to the original meaning of this term trauma bonding was first devised in 1997 by this man called doctor practic cans who interestingly also is known for his work actually on sex addiction as a sidebar but he essentially created discovered found at this term to refer to a relationship between an abuser and an abused person or a manipulative person in a target that is formed in a way that gets somebody to stay against their best interests because of trauma because trauma creates a bond in contrast to like the normal use of the word bond to describe like a deep healthy reaction to love and emotional vulnerability and connection. And trauma bonding refers to how we respond to emotional volatility and how we respond to control sometimes you know actually tunneling further into the relationship that is creating these bad feelings for protection when it's obviously against our best interest because for some reason our brain isn't able to rationally respond in these situations it has been scrambled by somebody else's behavior. A bond is you know in simple terms really just a connection a trauma bond is a connection that is forged through something sinister but it is a connection nonetheless in short it is an attachment based on cycles of the ret and relief which leave the person in this relationship desperate for approval this can happen yes most often with a romantic partner but it can also happen with the parent can happen with a friend it can happen with the friend it can happen with an institution a mentor anybody who has emotional control and can take what somebody needs from a relationship and exploit it these have the capacity to turn into trauma bonds the way that a trauma bond begins is often through intense affection and praise from the Ibusa. Love bombing. like major declarations of love, what appears to be fierce devotion, it's like a huge emotional heart, super intense, it's like a magnetic, addictive feeling to be cared for in such a way. They may also, and this is critical, tell the person that they are intending to form a trauma bond with, stories of their own trauma, particularly from their childhood, particularly from past relationships to generate like a deep psychological hold over this other person, but also to elicit sympathy. This stage is essential. It basically provides this abuser, this person with an emotional alibi for their future bad behavior. And they need to do this in order to engage the next part of their plan because eventually like their behavior is going to switch, they're going to become cruel. And having this reason why they do it to fall back on helps them dismiss their behavior to you. Again, like I said, eventually it's going to escalate, but the thing is is that this escalation is often also randomly juxtaposed with warmth and affection. It will be like, I love you. You've disappointed me like nobody ever has. You're the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. I never want to see you again. I think you're beautiful. You discussed me. This flip, flop, flip, flop. In his article, Love and Stockholm Syndrome, The Mystery of Loving and Abuser, this psychologist Dr. Joseph Carver, he calls this small kindness perception. Perhaps the abuser has been giving somebody the silent treatment and then they showed them the small kindness by breaking the silent treatment with a gift or a hug. Maybe they will exclude you, ignore you, and then suddenly turn around and want you around. This is that cycle of relief, pain and relief, pain and relief, like not knowing which one's going to come. Again, they become an equal source of fear, but also of safety, meaning that even if somebody wants to walk away, all of their emotional regulation, good and bad is tied up to this other person. There are enough good days to entice you and enough bad days to confuse you and enough excuses that they're giving you to think that they can change. This hot and cold personality has been described essentially like a two faced soulmate, which I think is like a brilliant term for describing this. It basically fits this pattern of intimate and reinforcement and reward and punishment. It fits this pattern of like, this person is two different people in one body and these two different people are so difficult to disentangle because the good is just so good and the bad is so different to that that it's literally impossible to know what's real and what's not. From there, the cycle of affection and cruelty continues, often for years. Sometimes even for a lifetime for some people, which is tragic to say, so why does it happen in the first place? What are the warning signs? Why do these situations occur? And why do so many people often report being like, it just kind of snuck up on me? If you haven't lived it, I feel like it's very hard to understand that. Research into the causes of trauma bonds, this might surprise you, might not surprise some of you actually. It's actually still really in its early days and early stages because psychologists are still getting a grasp on just still getting a grasp on like the power diet. It's a dynamic of all of this, but it is thought that one of the core reasons that somebody sets out to create a trauma bond and whether that's deliberate or like a little bit subconscious, it is because of a deep need for power and adoration. This is highly attributed to narcissistic personality traits or a narcissistic personality disorder. A narcissist, as we know from one about previous episodes on this, needs to be at the center of everything to feel like they matter. And whether they get that through success, through money, through praise or through romantic manipulation and playing the victim, like it's kind of all the same if they get what they want, if they get that spotlight, if they get the attention, if they get adoration. In particular, there's a type of narcissist called a vulnerable narcissist. It's very prevalent to have a trauma bond with this kind of person. This is the type of narcissist who takes up all the emotional oxygen in the room and in a relationship by always making themselves the victim, by making sure that their crisis is always the biggest crisis, by making sure that everybody like orbits them. So one individual being narcissistic or having a high, being high in trait narcissism is a huge risk factor. Another is if the person who is either person really has an insecure attachment style. And one that is developed from past bonds or past relationships, feel like we are all very familiar with how with what an insecure attachment style is and why how people develop that style and relationships. But again, if you're only blueprint for love, is that affection is something to be given and taken away or that love needs to be earned? It is not freely given. It becomes harder to question a trauma bond and it becomes harder to question when a new romantic partner does things that are a little bit odd or a little bit nefarious because you don't know an alternative. That's what love is. That's what you know it has. That's how your parents loved each other. That's how they loved you. So all these warning signs to other people would be these bright red flags like you just miss them because you don't have, you haven't learnt what unhealthy love versus healthy love looks like. There's also a biochemical element to this as well, which I don't see talks about very often. But the anthropologist Helen Fisher, she actually showed in her research that this kind of love actually activates some of the same brain regions that are responsible for cocaine addiction, alcohol addiction, gambling addiction because of that intermittent reinforcement we were speaking about. Basically, sometimes you win, more often you lose. But sometimes you win. And that feels really nice. That keeps you hooked. That's why people keep sitting at slot machines waiting for their luck to turn. I need people to understand this like there is some powerful biological systems working against your favor here, especially in a turbulent relationship. I think the effects of all these chemicals are going to be so much more profound. You know, you've got dopamine, yeah, but you've also got oxytocin, vasopressin, serotonin, cortisol, norepinephrine, adrenaline, all mixing together because of how many highs and lows there are. There are just too many signals to intercept and for your rational mind to, I guess like sort through. So your ability to walk away into rationally see what's happening is just scrambled. When somebody is the source of both the best and worst parts in your life, no chemical in your body is a good or bad chemical. It just responds to stress or things in your environment and you're just receiving so much of that. In particular, like dopamine, I feel like it plays a role in so much. But especially for this, something that you might not know about dopamine is that yeah, it gives you pleasure, but it also minimizes pain. So when you're going through painful emotional experiences, right? Dopamine is numbing you. It's reducing your pain response, physical and emotional, so that you can endure hard things. But it's also giving you this like strangely positive reinforcement reward here. So it's not working in our favor, right? Dopamine is being released because what you're going through is hard, but then also your brain's like, oh, but then we feel good. So this is essentially like the perfect chemical assistant to an abuser who is playing that hot and cold persona to their advantage emotionally, but also biochemically. And it is it traps people. Finally, I think another big factor here is just time. The longer the person, the abuser waits before showing the side of them, the more sympathy they are able to gain through those early on vulnerability disclosures, but also the more sunk costs they know they are creating. The harder it is for somebody to walk away because they've already invested so much time into the relationship, you'll also notice that like at first, the switch between kind and awful is pretty. It's pretty rare like to see this terrible side of them in the first months, years of the relationship because they're kind of testing the boundaries. Slowly though, that terrible side becomes more prominent as they kind of adapt somebody and acclimate somebody to their bad behavior. They know they know that in the beginning, the longer in between the good and bad behavior, the harder it is to detect. The longer the relationship continues, the more bio and emotional rewiring is being done, the more entrenched somebody is. It is just such a powerful reminder that like people can be in these relationships for years. Everybody from the outside can be like something is wrong here and it will not show up on their emotional radar because it is essentially, I don't like to use terms like brainwashing or stock rooms syndrome, but it is a form of that. It's like that classic analogy of a frog being put into a part of boiling water. If the water is already boiling, if somebody dropped you into an abusive relationship, you would jump out immediately. But if the water slowly boils around you, you don't notice it. And in the case with frogs, like they end up dying before they can escape because they just just get hotter and hotter and hotter until they don't even realize. Do not be mistaken here. Manipulative people. They know how to target these levels of addiction, of acclamation, of just everything to keep you hooked. Okay, we are going to, we're going to take a short break here. And then I really want to take us through this list of like, is it a trauma bond? Is it not? And what are some signs that things are really taking me turn for the worst? Stick around. We'll be right back after this short break. If you're trying to keep up with everything happening on and off the court, we've got you covered on the podcast, flagrant and funny. You look at the top four number one seats. What do you think UCLA is going to do? Break down that for me, my friend. Obviously you kind of see overwhelmed the favorite in this tournament, but I'd be honest. I think people are kind of sleeping on Texas experts are suggesting that UCLA is the number one challenger to you. And that right after that would be Texas. S&C is so, it's so deep and so thinking just about everything. It really is annoying. So it's UCLA, Texas, South Carolina, LSU, only ones that could possibly upset you. On flagrant and funny, we're giving our unfilter takes on the biggest moments of the conversations everyone's having. So whether you're bracket is busted or you just want the latest on the tournament, we got you. Listen to flagrant and funny with Carrie champion and Jamel Hill on the I Heart radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts presented by capital one, founding partner of I Heart Women Sports. I'm Lori Segal, a long time tech journalist and consider my new podcast, mostly human, your bridge to the future. Anyone can now be an entrepreneur, anyone can build an app and it's very empowering. Each week, I'll speak to the people building that future and we're going to break down what all of this innovation actually means for you. What I come to realize is that when people think that they're dating these AI companion, they're actually dating the companies that create this. We're experiencing one of the greatest tech accelerations in human history. And let's be honest, that can be messy. There's no playbook for what to do when an AI model hallucinates a story about you. But it's my belief that we should all benefit from this moment. Mostly human will show you how. My goal is to give you the playbook so you can benefit. The reason I say agencies because like if we can give power back to people, then I think that's probably the best thing we can do for your mental health. Listen to mostly human on the I Heart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. In 2023, former bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctor this particular test twice in selling, I doctor the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Some likes the greatest disinfected. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Like a lesbian, like a marion chain. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura Scott's the police. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at America, Pec County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice has served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trap podcast on the I Heart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. You know, Roald Dahl, the writer who thought up Willie Wonka, Matilda and the BFG. But did you know he was also a spy? Was this before he wrote his stories? I must have been. Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Roald Dahl, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans. What? And he was really good at it. I'm telling you. I think I was a spy. Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelt's? Play poker with Harry Truman and had a long affair with a congresswoman. And then he took his talents to Hollywood where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock before writing a hit James Bond film. How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever? And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids? The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote. Listen to The Secret World of Roald Dahl on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Why hasn't a woman formally participated in a Formula One race weekend in over a decade? Think about how many skills they have to develop at such a young age. What can we learn from all of the new F1 romance novels suddenly popping up every year? He still smelled of podium champagne and expensive friction. And how did a 2023 event called Wagga Getten change the paddock forever? That day is just seared into my memory. I'm culture writer and F1 expert Lily Herman and these are just a few of the questions I'm tackling on no grip. A Formula One culture podcast that dives into the under explored pockets of the sport. In each episode a different guest and I will go deeper into the wacky mishaps, scandals and sagas, both on the track and far away from it, that have made F1 a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to no grip on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We've talked about what a trauma bond is and I mentioned, you know, there's a little concept creep a lot of people using this for different things. So how can we really know what's like the biggest sign that this is going on? I think crucially like the big thing to remember is that all relationships are going to have some level of emotional disclosure. Like, duh, people are going to share their secrets, people are hopefully going to talk about their childhood trauma, people are hopefully going to talk about the really hard stuff that is going on in their life. Them sharing that is not a sign that like they're using their vulnerability to manipulate you. Like it's just genuine vulnerability. So I don't want you to be in maybe the early days of relationship or sitting here thinking, hey, like that guy just told me about how his mom was really awful to him or like that guy just told me about his ex and how terrible she was. Is he trying to like get his hooks in me? No. In healthy relationships, there is mutual sharing, there is mutual understanding, there is sympathy for some things, empathy for others, for both people's things, there is never blame. And it will be hard at times, but there is never blame. And you always know you are on the same side, right? You always know like this person doesn't think this is my fault, right? In a trauma bond, you are made to feel like the aggressor. You are made to feel like you were responsible for triggering someone else's emotions and their behavior and their bad habits. You're the reason they cheated or their trauma is the reason they cheated or did something terrible or were awful to you or switched. So suddenly you're like, I don't know who's the victim and who's the villain. I think I'm the victim. I think I'm having a hard time, but they've made everything so confusing. So these are the five key signs of a trauma bond other than that. Intimate reinforcement, highs and lows we spoke about, there is a distinct honeymoon period that you can recollect and you can look back on that is slowly turning into a nightmare period. Number two, the strange desire to initially want to help this person. There's this sense as well that you should be able to manage their behavior and that maybe their behavior is justified. It can be defended. It can be minimized because it's not them. It's their hurt. It's their pain. You should be able to work through this with them. You're not a bad person. You're not going to abandon somebody who has trauma. Eventually it does also seem like their pain seems to hurt you more than them, but you really care and you're just trying to be kind. There's hyper vigilance. Eventually you will get to this stage of being like, I don't know what is the right thing to say. I don't want to make them angry. I don't want to make them mad at me. So there is this lingering, ongoing stress response. You reread every message. You reconsider everything you say. Even nice things that you want to do for them, you're like, how can this be interpreted in the worst possible way? Because you know their mind and their behavior is going to go to that. There is isolation from support systems and from yourself as well. You as a support system. They will find ways to detach you from people who they know are going to interrupt what's happening. Perhaps by asking you to move in with them really quickly, demanding all your time really quickly, asking you to move states really quickly, telling you that like they don't like your friends, they don't like that guy that your friends with, they're jealous, they don't think they are good for you. You should spend all your time with them. They also make it hard for you to leave. If you have ever sat in this relationship and thought, I'm actually just deeply unhappy. I don't like who I am in this kind of relationship. This is not the person I want to be with, but emotionally you're like, leaving isn't really an option. though like I can't leave. Part of me doesn't want to, but I really know I should. That is a big sign of a trauma bond. During my research, I actually came across a test from this book on narcissistic abuse that I think is really helpful. And the author, her name is Vanessa, she basically devised this test to help people gain that clarity. That situation I was just talking about where it's like, I feel one thing, I think the other, this test like helps cut through that chaos and just be like, no, definitively like this is a bad situation. So you can kind of return to this, but I think this set of questions is really useful. First up, would you want your friends, family, sister, brother, to be in this relationship? Would you want them to trade places with you? Yes or no? B, does your situation look toxic when you visualize somebody else in the same predicament? Maybe a celebrity, maybe like a sibling or a friend? C, do you frequently find yourself thinking or having to explain to others that like they just simply don't understand your relationship? Do you frequently have to justify the other person's behavior? You kind of have to pitch or like sell parts of this person to others. Do know it is best to leave again, but you simply cannot. Do you feel like there was an invisible force keeping you to this person? And finally, do you feel confused, afraid, scared when you are apart from them? If you are answered to any of these things, just get to thinking. It's not some of these aren't like yes or no, but if they just get you thinking, I think it might be worth just like sitting with this for a while and being like, huh, how much of their behavior is actually not okay? How much of an emotional haze are they creating around our relationship to keep me hooked, even though they're treating me really, really badly? Let's talk about why and this is like the natural next step. Why are these bonds so hard to break though? Like, what is the magnetism? I think this question again, comes up all the time like, why don't you just leave? This guy, this guy, this person is awful to you. I think what people don't understand is like what they're really asking. Like how psychologically, in presenting a situation like this is, especially if you are a kind, sensitive, empathetic person, if you are somebody who truly wants to do their best by everybody, you may see this person is genuinely just needing you and fixable no matter how much holding onto them hurts and burns you. Like, you still feel like it's your job to make them better. There's also the fact that like, your entire identity can become this person. Financially, yeah, sure, physically, yes, mentally, 100%. They are your weekends, they are your evenings, they are your thoughts, they are what you choose to wear, what you choose to talk about, what you think will impress them, what you say to avoid a fight. Again, just to nail this point home, they are your safety. They control the danger. They are what they bring danger and sadness and harm and cruelty into your life. They are also the one who can take it away. So this means they control the negative. They also control the positive. They control the highs. And they can position themselves as well as the safe haven from other external, disappointing things in life. So you begin to like, orbit them because that's the only way that you feel secure is if you're on their good side. Experts have actually pinpointed like a seven-stage cycle of trauma bonds to explain like how deeply entrenched you become and what makes them so hard to break and walk away from. We already know like that first stage of like, love bombing, indoctrination, vulnerability. The second stage is like, again, when they start to test things out. So they start to just be like, can I get away with this? Can I not get away with this? What is this person going to do? It's at this point that if somebody kind of detects them or if somebody externally detects them and really like says something they'll often like abandon the relationship, or they'll often be like, they'll switch it up and be like, oh, I just, I don't want commitment. Like, oh, you're this person that like, I'm not ready for this relationship because they kind of consents like, oh, there's a few maybe other godrails. But if like, some of them are really sneaky. Like, if they just happen to get away with it or if they've waited longer and longer to get away with it, sometimes it's just like very difficult to recognize. So there is this period after the long bombing of like settling at times. And then these like, short little sprinkles of like, something's kind of happening behind the scenes. Like, something's not going right. Then comes like the more intense stuff. And it's not going to start out with like, somebody doing something terrible. Maybe it does. But it's only, it's mainly going to be like criticism and devaluation. So I'm going to be like verbal. And it's often going to be things that like they can blame you for. Right? So they're basically, again, it's like this boiling water analogy. They're like slowly bringing you in. Like, how can I make myself the victim here so that this person you feels like the villain and I can get this all twisted. This is also very critical because they start to get you to want to earn their approval or earn their forgiveness for things that you are not at fault for. They really like, they will work hard at twisting reality to villainize you to paint you as the problem. So you kind of enter this dance where like, you feel blamed, you feel like you have to apologize. You feel like if they would have walked away from the relationship, it would be your fault. All of this is like deeply manipulative. It is part of the trauma bond. Then we get to the stage of like upping the ante. This is when we get into like the, there's full on gaslighting going on. You completely doubt yourself. You suddenly uncover maybe lies that are happening in the relationship. This is when you're really like, oh my god, maybe something is wrong, but I am so in deep now. I am so bonded to this person. I feel so much like agitation when I'm not around them and I'm so dependent on them for emotional validation that like, at this point, I just have to get through this. And there is this continued illusion of another side that came at the beginning. This continued illusion of like things are going to get better. I think after a while when you realize this isn't going to happen and this is what we such as talk about, there is resignation. Essentially your emotions and your body and your mind is like, if we're going to stay in this relationship, like we should just switch off. Like we want to be with this person. I care about this person. Maybe there are just parts of this that like we just can't engage in. So there is definitely a point that comes about where it's not that you just don't care anymore, but you're kind of just like, okay, this is just how it is. Like I'm just going to make myself small. I'm just going to try and be good. And stage six swiftly follows the loss of self. After so many months of this manipulation, you lose sight of who you are as a person. You are what they want you to be. You are not you. You are what is required to make them stay in your life and to make them happy. All these things, what brings you joy, what makes you excited, your plans for the future, your hobbies, your friends, it would be very hard for you to say because this is when they get you to the point of like you are indoctrinated into this relationship, leaving doesn't just mean giving up the relationship. It means giving up your entire sense of self. It often means giving up money. It means giving up all this time. It means complete emotional withdrawal. At this stage, as well, like there may be options for you opportunities for somebody to be like, I don't want to be here anymore. I want to walk away. Friends may get involved, whatever. But often that's when the cycle starts again. They will like turn on the charm. They will give you all the seven is that they are changing just to recommit you to the relationship. People who are in trauma bonds talk about the fact that it's not just one cycle. It's not just that they've gone through the seven stages once. They've gone through the seven stages like 10, 11, 50 times all over again. Like somebody bringing you back in so that you cannot leave. So if that is what's happening, if this is a slow master plan to make you molded to this person, to make you feel like they're everything and you cannot walk away. How do you walk away? The tapence in many, many ways. Like obviously like some people like their abuse are just never lets them and they just are never able to. But I do think that there does come a point for the people who do walk away and the people who have the help to walk away where they're like, oh my god, this is not love. And some people describe it as an epiphany moment. Some people describe it as a rock bottom. Other people describe it as like this gradual realization of like, this is not what people fantasize about. Like when I was a child thinking about love, when I watched those beautiful romance movies when I was a kid, like this was not it. Who would want to be in this situation? I don't see anybody else in this situation or maybe you do, but like, I don't want this for my kids. I don't want this for my friends. Like I don't want this for myself. This is not how I want to be loved for the rest of my life. And I think choosing to leave requires acknowledging firstly like that this is going to be a great way to live. to be hard and mentally preparing for that first. It will be at times emotionally difficult always, but also physically taxing. This is something I rarely see people talk about. People who leave relationships like this, like I honestly believe they should be entitled to sick leave. Like their entire immune system has often become compromised from chronic stress. So there have been all these like doctor reports or studies talking about how when people finally walk away from these relationships, they actually develop like month long sicknesses. They feel physically stricken down. They get aches, fatigue, just colds. And the more things they've never gotten before because their body like stops running on cortisol and stress. And suddenly like the body has no more reserves to fight off things that it's been holding back. I wish people talked about this more like your body sometimes does like feel physically burdened by leaving this relationship. So there needs to be an acknowledgement of that, but also some grace around that that yes, you're going to feel mentally shit. You're going to feel physically probably not great as well. That is all part of your body. I think like cleansing itself of this relationship. This is still grief, right? This there is still a loss here. Our body grieves anything that we were familiar with. Anything that felt normal and comfortable. Our loss of that, our lack of that, like how removal from that does feel like pain because it was still something that you relied upon even if it was unreliable. This is not this is again not a sign that you should go back to this person. It is simply your body emotionally detoxing from a bond that had you addicted. We also have to appreciate the huge emotional and psychological draw of trauma bonds is how good they made you feel and those times and are not discounted by the bad times. You still lived both times equally. Both states of being in that relationship were ones that you experienced. Because the good times were contrasted with such powerful bad times, they do kind of feel more emotionally profound. That's why the first week, the first month after being like I'm done with this, where done can actually be really confusing. And I feel like people need to prepare for that. Expect to not know how to feel. Expect to not necessarily feel the elation you anticipated. Expect to question whether this version of reality is one that you actually want. It is. Trust me, you do want this version of reality. You've just got to get through this tiny period first. There's also this cognitive dissonance. Why do I feel so devastated yet so loyal? How could I hate them so much and still care about them? Why do I feel like I'm to blame and yet I didn't do anything wrong? This is just your brain trying to regain its perspective and trying to retell the story in a way that makes sense to you. After it's been dictated by somebody else for so, so very long. Whatever comes up for you, whatever like emerges, guilt, shame, fear, anger, sadness, it is all just your mind suddenly coming up for air from this terrible situation. And suddenly encountering all these emotions that have been suppressed and trying to make sense of them so that it can pursue closure so that it can pursue emotional clarity so that it can give this story some kind of ending. That shame, that guilt, that is not for you to bear, that is not your burden. It is purely your mind trying to find the appropriate emotional reaction and just drawing on anything it can from the past that maybe slightly felt similar. That is not the correct immersion. Guilt and shame, they will come up. You did nothing wrong. You are not to blame for their behavior. This is just physical and emotional withdrawal. This is again, you're just trying to make sense of it. They are probably not going through the same things that you're going through because they do not have a conscience. They are probably not struggling in the same way that you are. They are not sitting here contemplating, did I do anything bad? Did I do what was right? Did I hurt this person? And that in itself is the sign that they were the one to blame in this relationship. Because the very fact that you are considering even that you have a role to play in this or considering that you should feel some guilt, should feel sorry for them, should feel some shame, shows that you are a much better person than this individual and shows that again, you have a conscience. You have care. They do not have care. That is why they are not considering it in this perspective. That is why and that is the clearest evidence that they were the manipulator. They were the cruel person in this situation. I want to take another short break here so we can just really focus again on how to trust, how to feel, how to love, how to heal after these relationships, especially if you are encountering it or enduring it in your 20s. So stay with us. Go get a cup of tea. If you are trying to keep up with everything happening on and off the court, we've got you covered on the podcast, flagrant and funny. You look at the top four number one seeds. Obviously, you kind of see overwhelmed the favorite in this tournament, but I'd be honest. I think people are kind of sleeping on Texas. Experts are suggesting that UCLA is the number one challenger to you con and that right after that would be Texas. S&C is so deep and so thick and just about everything. So it's UCLA, Texas, South Carolina, LSU. Only ones that could possibly upset you con. So whether your bracket is busted or you just want the latest on the tournament, we got you. I'm Lori Siegel, a long time tech journalist and consider my new podcast, mostly human, your bridge to the future. Anyone can now be an entrepreneur, anyone can build a nap and it's very empowering. My goal is to give you the playbook, so you can benefit. You doctor this particular test twice in selling, correct? Some likes the greatest disinfectant. Greg, a lesbian, Michael Manchaining. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is LoveTrap. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at America, Pekowni, as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. Listen to LoveTrap podcast on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. You know Roldahl, the writer who thought up Willie Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG. I must have been. Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Roldahl, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary controversial life. What? I'm telling you because I was a spy. Did you know Dawg got cozy with the Roosevelt's? And then he took a sound to Hollywood where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock before writing a hit James Bond film. Listen to The Secret World of Roldahl on the I Heart ratey web Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. And how did a 2023 event called Wagga Getten changed the paddock forever. I'm culture writer and F1 expert Lily Herman, and these are just a few of the questions I'm tackling on no grip. A Formula One culture podcast that dives into the under-explored pockets of the sport. In each episode, a different guest and I will go deeper into the wacky Mishaps scandals and sagas, both on the track and far away from it, that have made F1 a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to no grip on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So we did an episode a couple of weeks ago around how to experience healthy love after toxic love, that I would highly recommend if you resonate with any of the things that we're talking about today. But I thought, you know, as we wrap up this episode, I would just give you guys like a little bit of a bite-sized summary right here so that you just get like the key, high-line points for this journey and this like recovery that you're in. Recovering from a trauma bond is never not complex, but one of the best things that you can do that I've heard from so many people is to find as many objective witnesses as possible. And not witnesses in like a legal sense, sometimes that is equally necessary, but I mean witnesses in the emotional sense. People who you can be truly open about your relationship with now that it's done, people who can and people who will confirm for you again and again like that's not love. That's not right, that person was bad, that was bad behavior, people do not do that. You need those kinds of emotional witnesses. I just finished reading "Straindes by Bell Bird" and which I think is an amazing memoir if you are going through this right now. And in her memoir she basically details how her husband of 20 years out of the blue commits this terrible betrayal against her and takes no accountability, but also then like abandons her and like overnight abandons their family and their children is like, "I don't want anything to do with this." And one of the most powerful things she talks about in this book is this moment when someone completely out of the situation, like outside of the situation who really doesn't know them very well, kind of tangentially is like, "That is bad." Like no, whatever you are thinking, he shouldn't have done that. All your emotions about this are completely correct. And she just talks about it as this relief, this catharsis of like finally somebody outside of me and outside of us can tell me. This is what our pain often needs, it needs a witness, it needs somebody who will interrupt that self-enforced gaslighting that sometimes lingers when somebody else is externally gaslit you for a while. We need somebody who's going to be like, "That was wrong, I can objectively, I don't have any skin in the game here." That person was bad. A therapist is obviously the best case scenario here, if you have access to that or a counselor or a psychiatrist, anybody who is trauma informed is incredible. But again, sometimes that's not accessible, even just having friends, new systems of support, family members that you trust, who will resenter you with their honesty and with their honesty about like, about what they saw and what they know about love and why that situation wasn't love is extremely powerful, especially because so much of your social life and emotional life has been wound up in this other person, it's going to be so easy to feel like you should just retreat into your shell, nobody wants to see your emotional wounds, I promise they do. I promise like people around you, especially after what you've been through, they want the opportunity to love you, to heal you, to be there for you. That is a language of love that many people speak, they will provide that for you, they want to help you. Next you need to restructure your beliefs, you might have deep rooted fears now that people will abandon you, you are unworthy of love, that you did something wrong, again not true. So it is so important to take a step back and challenge that negative self talk, that is not your voice, that is their voice, that is the voice they implanted in your mind. I need you to ask yourself, is that really true? Is that really true? Your brain will always focus on the most negative thought you have about yourself or about the situation or about the future of love in your life, because it is the one that scares you the most. And therefore it feels like the most important thought to interrogate and to ruminate on and to question and to solve, or just to think about because it's so scary you think, if that one is true we've got to really sort that out. It's that age old threat detection system we talk about on the podcast all the time, our brain is constantly scanning like what is going to take us down, let's deal with that first. Thing is that threat detection system has probably again become hijacked by this other person, meaning your ability to dismiss your fears is harder because in the past they made them come true for you. They knew what your fears were because they got you vulnerable and close, they made them come true. So anything that gives you cognitive distance, anything that lets you be the judge and jury of your thoughts, not just the person who feels persecuted by them or who feels like these thoughts are dropped into your mind and you have to believe them, that is essential. This involves or might involve for you, looking your thoughts, taking the false belief about whatever you're thinking and providing all the evidence that it's not true, providing or generating five alternatives, making art from your thoughts expressing them like in a creative way. Maybe it involves reprogramming through gratitude, through therapy, whatever works for you, know those thoughts are not your own. Find a way, find a practice that lets you look at that thought and kind of just examine it and not commit to it. And know that like your mind as powerful as this other person probably was and definitely wasn't your life, you are equally as powerful in changing those false beliefs and changing those narratives that they've implanted in you because now you get access to your brain all the time, you are in charge. Think of it like weeding your internal garden of like the invasive weeds and vines that they have planted. Think about like visualize every time you take a negative thought you identified as a thought they have planted you like pull it out from its roots and you throw it away. You are cleaning up the garden, you're gotten. Finally, and obviously there's a lot more to talk about, but for this episode finally, the most important thing you can do after a relationship ends other than therapy, other than getting as much physical distance from that person as possible is to work on creating a whole new universe of interests, people, weekend plans, evening rituals, creative rituals, practices, books, podcasts, favorite TV shows that they have no connection to they will never get to touch it. They have never heard about those parts of yourself because they're things that you only started doing after them. If this person was your whole world, it is time to create another planet of your personality that is just for yourself. They know nothing about this. This is all you. They will never I just like cannot express anything that like you always wanted to do when you were with them and you never told them about and you never tried. Now is your time to do this. Now is your time to put yourself at the center and to just completely repel and replant the garden. You have to forcefully dislodge them from your mind by pouring as much novelty, joy, newness as you can back into your life. I had a friend who left a relationship a couple years back now who it was definitely a trauma bond. I think we always recognize that she definitely does now. And she went and lived on a ranch for three months. Thankfully she had the flexibility to do that. And when she ran into him, I can't remember when it was like a year later. He was like asking her about all these things that like she was doing and she just like had this realization of like, oh, you don't know anything about me anymore because I am not that person. I've completely recreated myself in my image in the image of like what is going to make me happy. And I think after these kinds of bonds, whether they lasted for two months, two years, 20 years, like that is the most powerful thing you can do. Anything to separate your stories and to start essentially just like, yeah, rewriting, rewriting, I should say your own. So I think that is all we have time for. I could talk about this for so long. So if you have made it to the end of this episode, thank you. And I hope you're doing okay. And I hope that this has been helpful for whatever situation you are in. I just, it's so difficult. Whether you're trying to support a friend, whether you're trying to avoid this in your own life, whether you have been through this, like, this is one of the most awful and serious kinds of relationships or bonds that somebody can form with another human. Or you're incredibly brave. Hopefully now you are much more informed about what has gone on and what will, you know, what has gone on in your mind and in your body to make this kind of relationship so difficult to leave. And I'm just wishing you the best of luck and I'm wishing you so much healing and self love and just like confidence going forward. And I just know that you are going to replant your garden with the most beautiful flowers and in the most beautiful way, and you're going to create an incredible life for yourself that this terrible, tiny, toxic person can never touch. So thank you so much for listening. Thank you as always to our researcher, Lucy Davidson. If you have made it this far and you are listening on Spotify, leave a little black heart in the comments below just so I know that you are still listening. You can also follow us on Instagram @thatpsychologypodcast. You can leave a five-star review if you feel cold to do so. You can follow us on Substaff. There's so many things. Honestly, just check out the description of the episode and you can find all that links to Netflix to all that stuff, as well as, as I said, some further reading if this episode really resonated with you, but as always, as we wrap up. And especially with this episode, be safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself. We will talk very, very soon. This week, an interview with OpenAICO Sam Altman. If you're trying to keep up with everything happening on and off the court, we've got you covered on the podcast, "Lagrant and Funny." You want to start with the first version for the Big Ten Coat of the Year? Oh, whatever. Do you like to? Yeah, sure. So you're as far as I'm concerned. So whether your bracket is busted or you just want the real talk on what's happening during the tournament, open your free I Heart Radio app, search, "Lagrant and Funny" with Carrie Champion and Jamel Hill and listen now. Presented by Capital One, a founding partner of I Heart Women's Sports. "Regal S.V.A.N.D. Michael Manchini." My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. "Lora, Scott's still police." As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. You know Roll Doll, he thought of Willy Wonka and the BFG, but did you know he was a spy? In the new podcast, The Secret World of Roll Doll, I'll tell you that story and much, much more. "What?" You probably won't believe it either. "Was this before you wrote his stories? I must have been." "Okay, I don't think that's true." "I'm telling you. I was a spy." Listen to The Secret World of Roll Doll on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Look no further than No Grip, a new podcast tackling the culture of motor racing's most coveted series. Join me, Lily Herman, as we dive into the under-explored pockets of F1. Including the story of the woman who last participated in a Formula One race weekend, the recent uptick in F1 romance novels, and plenty of mishaps scandals and sagas that have made Formula One a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.