Why the FUTURE of Sustainability is in INDIA with Avantika Saraogi

If I am successful, all my farmers are successful, all my shareholders are successful, all my employees are successful. I have to be successful. Hello, hello, today we have my dear friend, Amantika. Somebody I am truly inspired by. If you don't evolve, you become irrelevant. As remarkable as this sounds, it's actually even more remarkable. You know when you have that moment in your life where you realize this is exactly where you are meant to be? That's powerful. I took to this business like a fish with two water. Sugar cane as a catalyst for the future. When I joined the business, then redrod hit. It was baptism by fire. Yeah, if you look at the bees design, the body is very white and the wingspan is very small. I don't dynamic. It cannot fly. But thankfully the bee doesn't know that. I'm a bee. If this government wasn't in place and I'm being central as well as state here, then we wouldn't have wanted to this. Oh wow. The government is going to be the first in the world which will be made only from renewable energy. Nothing brings me greater happiness than creating something which is good for everyone. 550,000 farmers and 1000 villages. You have to create change. Anyone in agriculture business can feel global warming harder than anyone around them. We must try to bring nature's balance back. If after commissioning within a year, I am not announcing at least a doubling of capacity considering failed. What is good garbage? The kind of garbage that's kind to the earth. Oh no. Hello, hello. Welcome to the Good Garbage Podcast. My name is Faith Krishna. My primary reason for existence has been to find ways to leave our wonderful planet cleaner. We will be speaking with material innovators, creators and propagators. To learn from them how we can build our scale and towards a regenerated future. Their stories will help us answer the big question. Hello, hello. Today we have my dear friend, Avantika and somebody I'm truly inspired by. And I've known your family for maybe 35 years, at least maybe more even. So I'm going to start right there, Avantika. Talk to me about your lustrous family and how that has impacted you as a person. So I think that since you said you know my family since pretty much before I was born, then you know that the illustrious is not a word that we, anybody would use to describe ourselves. I think it's more about dedication to whatever we do or I think especially my grandmom and my dad and even my mom. I mean, whatever you do is 100%. Fall in or you're all out. I think that's what it is like to be in this family. And I actually learned a lot from your grandmother. So when I would go, she would always be in one of the sugar mills and I would go to meet her to do an annual deal for bagas. And she would always call me to her home. And the pearls of wisdom that I got, more not from what she said, but what she did like you guys, you were saying. So I remember sitting with her on a dining table and every few seconds there was a computer screen in front of her and she would pick up her specs and look at that and then look at me again and then start eating again. And ultimately I could hold it. That was like, you know, what are you doing? It was okay. Let me guess. Okay. Let me guess. It was the number of trucks. Was it? Which were emptied or waiting in the yard. It had to be that. Every, every weighing station, every weighing station. So I actually asked her why. She said, see, everything else can be managed. But if we are out of can then there is a problem. The other thing she told me and, you know, for the viewers and the listeners, our family came into sugar before yours. And she said, you guys were clearly you guys did not do well. That's what she told me. And she said, you know why? So I said, no, tell me. So she said that you didn't work with the farmers, which is what you were starting to talk about when we, before we started the conversation. So tell me more about, you know, that journey. Again, I'm still going to stay with you're growing up. And the impacts you got, let's stay with your grandmother first because I have had like maybe 10 meetings with her. Which is not. And so, definitely not enough. But I'm sure you gained a lot. So tell me maybe three to five things that you would say that, okay, these are things that I carry from my grandmother. I mean, you know, I didn't have the opportunity to work with her. But I think I have experienced her working since the day I can of course remember. So a few things. I mean, I don't know if I just going to be three or five or what, but I'm just going to tell you what impact she's left on me. So firstly, she was the only grandmother in all of my friends, right, who was working. And actively and decisively and vehemently, right. She was in the plants like nobody else had a grandmother who ran factories to begin with. She was project head. Can you understand that every single plant of Balrampur, which has been set up as green field or even taken over as brown field, she has spent the first season of that plant in that unit. So I think that this sort of, it comes very second nature to me that if you want to really do something, you do have to get your hands dirty, you know, you've got to be in it mind, body, heart and soul and physical presence is important. You know, so the whole, of course, with COVID and stuff, we learned so much like doing stuff remotely, but there is no replacement for physical presence, even though communication has changed. You know, physically going, physically seeing, physically experiencing and hearing directly from whether it is your workers, whether it is your farmers and not just from the managers. You know, and people who are paraphrasing or giving your report or something like that, I think that there is no, no replacement to that. And I think that is something I carry with me. I try that every time I visit you, I don't come back without visiting at least one factory, minimum. I try like three one-hour a year in one go. But because that presence, even if it's one day in the factory, even if it's two days in the factory, you can feel and sort of smell and breathe what's going on. And there's no replacement for that. So I think that's not. Smell for sure. Any sugar, no. It doesn't smell any more though. You get used to it also. Maybe your nose has gotten adjusted. So I grew up in a sugar mill compound and I would never smell it. But now it doesn't really smell it. Oh yeah, maybe. Yeah, those were different things. So now the environmental norms have made it so that we don't waste a drop of anything. So that's one thing. And then the inspiration that I also draw from her is about sheer grit and resilience. You know? Absolutely. So you just don't give up. We don't give up. And no matter how tough it is, no matter what curve ball is thrown at you, I think that giving up is not an option ever. So I think that is definitely something. And of course, it's not just directly through my grandma. All of this is also my dad. Yeah, yeah. And we'll come to your dad. Yeah. So I think a lot of. But they also very different. Very, very different. Like I know both of them and they're very different. Spending five hours to understand one small thing is my grandma. Yeah. And physical presence is my grandma. Physical presence is my grandma for sure. My dad has the ability to have the digital presence that even. I don't know. Your most advanced platform cannot provide. He has everything on his tips. Yeah. And he's connected with his people without the physical presence. I don't know how he does it. But he does it. He can hear your voice and tell you if you're okay or not. You know? And he's always been like that. And it's not. Of course, I am his daughter. So it goes without saying that it's for me. But every single person whom he deals with in terms of. He deals with unit heads minus one minimum. Minimum. Okay. Sometimes minus two or so. So imagine ten factories into maybe at least ten people. Yeah. So hundred people directly. At least. And then this is without the head office. This is without the Lucknow office. You know? So he can hear the person's voice for even ten seconds and tell what's going on. You know? So he has that sort of knock-in ability and I sort of need more of the physical presence, which I think is more my grandmoms. Physical presence, grit. You still have, like at least one more to go. So you know, when work comes to you, work must be done. Must be completed. Yeah. It doesn't matter. That's so much like my dad. Two AM also, right? It doesn't matter. If you've seen it, you just do it. Yeah. So that's something like. I don't know if your grandmoms were like that, but it would be just this kind of crazy nervous energy. If we hadn't. If we had to call somebody, it had to be done that day. Do it tomorrow. No, no, no, no, no, it has to be today. I don't know about tomorrow. So you know there's a funny story. So once she called a supplier. So like factory setting up, like I said, was her job, right? So some part or some machine was being delayed. And I don't remember which company it was, but she called up the MD of the company because the supplier was being delayed and she cannot handle delay. She's a Marvadi housewife to begin with you must remember, right? So we like delay is not okay. So she called him up at I think some ridiculous 11 30 PM and the guy is barely so able to answer the phone and she's like, "So it was not so easy?" She'll ask, but obviously she was so easy. It was a normal thing. She'll call up people at random times of the night and start, "So it was not so easy, right?" And it can be 2 AM. She'll have the same question for whoever she calls up and that poor guy he cannot say anything because of this. Yeah, yeah. Madam is calling. Madam, madam, she is awake and she is working. How can I sleep? You know, you're the MD of your own company as well, but did you feel a bit of shame, right? Yeah. So you can't say no. And it was like that. So work has to be done when you have seen it. Yeah. You know, so that's for for for the listeners who are not from an Indian background. Marvari is a community. We both. Yeah, belong to. And it's the business community in India and known for its intricate value system that we inherit over the years and our bloodstream, I guess. So there are few idiosyncrasies that I've heard also. So I want to use this platform to see if they were right. Yeah. So when your grandmom was there, I think it was five units at that point. Maybe in five, six, four, something like that. But anyways, I was told that one in each unit, the layout of the house is exactly the same. Yeah. Everything that is bought, it bought in five shoes or five of the same dresses and put in the same place. So when she moves from one to another, there is no difference. Like she would literally walk into the same house, same kind of clothes, same shoes. That's true. A hundred percent true. Yeah. And it's really helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There is very. So come in. Very efficient. Yeah. And it is it's genius. Right. Because you take the thing. Once you've achieved something you like, yeah, you structure why why rethink that thing? Yeah. And copy paste copy paste copy paste helps a person also feel at home, plastic production procurement. Everything is easy or faster. It's a no brainer. No questions. So the houses were the same. And it's the same. Wow. And if you if you do visit, you see that you won't realize you. I don't know. I haven't realized. I've only visited her in two of her units, Bobnan and Balram. Oh, but those were not the same because those were not made by us. Those were brown before they were. Yeah. But the green field, they're all like that. And there was a incredibly efficient. And the story was that she would be in her car. And then she had a toilet car that moved with her on the back. There was a sumo that was converted. Yeah. It was a true. It's true. Oh my gosh. Oh my god. The best toilet. I'm excited that I get to ask you these. Now, honestly, it's better than today's flight toilets. Yeah. It had proper vinyo and like nice and like it was super nice. Oh my gosh. It was really worked. So basically for all my holidays up until the age of maybe 16, 17, I was in the factory. Oh wow. I think that's why I connect to it. So that's amazing. And why was that? Why was it because your grandma wanted you there? Why was it because your dad sent you there? No, no. My grandma didn't get to see. Because she was so much in the factory. So that was the time where we would also, well, I would be gainfully employed. Somewhat. I went through the same journey. And you're not hooked to anything. Not that there was a lot to be hooked to back then. But it was a very outdoorsy, very safe, very sort of organic way where you just grew up with other children. Yeah. From the quality. As you know, I don't know if everybody knows this, but in India, all sugar mills will have little townships for all the employees and their families to live in. So there was just it was filled with kids, which I could never get the same in Calcutta because it just walk out and there's maybe like 50 kids playing. So it was really nice. And then my parents could travel then. You know, happily and guilt free. Yeah. Because I didn't even want them there. Yeah. You wanted to be with me. And she was able to give you time when you were there. She gave that two, three hours maximum, which was enough. Yeah. You know, even I mean, I have a son and he's three and a half and beyond a couple of hours, they don't really want you. They just want to make sure that when you're there, you're there. Yeah. You know, and that was great. You know why I liked it. It's because I was boss there. Yeah, nobody would mess with you. No, it's not like nobody would mess with me. I dictated when I slept, when I woke up, parents were not like, what I ate, when I ate, what I drank. So like, there was one holiday. Yeah. Like ridiculous. But I had Maggie every single day. Oh my gosh. Okay. And then I I got so fond of feeding. I remember being fed by her each time I went even to the office. She would have arranged that, you know, this, this is made in Desi ghee. Yeah. And it is from the how you should know everything. No, beta. You must have one more very, very. She loved to feed. Yeah. She loved to feed. And so it was the point was that no child should be having one Maggie a day for one month's treat. Yeah. And then I got incredibly sick. Okay, because it was overdone. So your mom wasn't happy. She didn't even know until I got sick. Right. And then since then for I think maybe 15 years, I didn't have Maggie again. Because you know, it left such a bad memory. That's a good thing in the end. In a way, I guess it worked. No. Yeah. Yeah. She did it for me. Yeah. So I have to also set context because as remarkable as the sounds, it's actually even more remarkable. You mentioned this in passing that no other grandmother was working. So of course, she was unique. And like I remember not just that whole part of the country knew, like East UP, there was only one madamji. You know, as soon as you said madamji, you knew who was being talked about. So can you can you tell us more of the circumstances that led to her heading and owning those factories and really pushing her way into kind of that scenario. Yeah. So okay, no. At that time, it was just one unit by Rampu, right? And it was bought by my great-grandfather who was an MP. And he bought it with his brother. And you know, at that time communication was so difficult, right? Even phones were. And he was an MP from that area or here. No, from here. Yeah. And he bought it from the British with his brother. And what happened was that there was so much pill fridge because everything was in cash. Yeah. Right? There were those babu-led sort of companies. Yeah. And if you really wanted something to be done better, you had to have more control which meant physical presence at the time. And my grandfather was very good at the communication, the talking, the PR, you know, government to talk, to represent, to all of that. But he couldn't be the guy who went and moved to the middle of nowhere to turn this thing around. Like I don't think he could have lived without people. Yeah. And my grandma, I don't know even till today. Okay. What for into her? That she asked her dad in law that can I try? Okay. And I don't know what. And your grandfather wasn't very interested in this. So my grandfather was interested in business. He just couldn't move to the factory. Factories. Okay. Okay. Like he couldn't do it. I thought he was quite spiritual as well. Is what I am told again. Focusing. Yeah. But he was interested in the PR. Okay. Like if he could stay in Calcutta and contribute which he did. Yeah. You know, but at the end of the day, what was needed was not that. Yeah. You know, so, so she asked, she asked, so she asked her father in law said, yes. Okay. Which is the crazy thing at that time in a Marwadi family. Yeah. 1980 India where a Marwadi housewife, Hindi Sahitya Mejya, okay, from Kanpur University, leaves her 14 year old son and her seven year old daughter in Calcutta to her mom-in-law who decides that better you go and handle it. That's very problem. Moves, locks, stock and barrel. And really they were progressive. Yeah. He was an MP. It showed. Like he really wanted things to happen. You know, unfortunately he died very young at 46 only. Otherwise, you know, maybe there would have been more of him. Yeah. Yeah. He wanted to build the country. Yeah. He was not interested in anything else. Yeah. But my my my great grandmother, you know, just imagine she was the one who told my mom when she got married that why you wearing a salwar come is you used to wear jeans, no? Wow. Even salwar come is is progressive by the way at that time. Well, I'm talking about my mom now. Oh, your mom. Okay. Yeah. So she was like, why are you wearing this? You didn't wear this until a few days ago. So wear your own clothes. And that's it. That's how it was. And then my mom never wore a sarawka. True, true women's lip was in the Sarawki house. So let's move to your dad, who I of course have interacted with a lot more. And I love him to bits. And I've learned so much from him. One of the things I learned from him was stick to your knitting. And you've clearly taken him away from that. Because he would always say, I am never doing anything but sugar. And then I remember about maybe six, seven years back. We were sitting and we were doing our bagass kind of this. And he said, you know, my daughter is after me. And you know, she's got this crazy thing in her mind that she wants to make PLA. And I actually told him, that's amazing. You should let her. It's like, come on, dude. Like, I hope she'll get over it. It's what he told me six, seven years back. And I was so, so I told them, please, don't let her get over it. At least I found one of my kind, you know, like without knowing you at all. I was just sitting without knowing you at that stage. But it was interesting that any of us once giving a talk at the international sugar organization. I saw in London. And my first screen was just stick to your knitting. We make sarogi. I said, this is what I've learned. There were two or three others who had learned from. But again, you know, somebody who clearly is a maverick does things his own way. Lives life his own way. He's told me very clearly, I'll never have dinner with you. Because you don't drink. Yeah, I don't drink. I don't do cigars. I don't. So he's like, you are no good, you know, like call my whisky. We can do that. We can do that. That's what he's doing always. We come for breakfast or lunch. The one time was dinner was because there were many people. So then it's okay. But otherwise, he's told me very clearly, I'm never going out for dinner with you. You like it or that will be so boring for me. But anyways, talk to me more about the things that you learned from your dad. So, you know, I think stick to your knitting is, I mean, I think nobody's described it better to me than you have actually. I've never heard that before, but it's so well put. Because that is the cornerstone of who he is. He's a guy who would say that we don't be afraid of the guy who knows a thousand moves. Be afraid of the guy who's done the one move 10,000 times. I'm going to hear what a smart thing to say. Yeah, in a way, this is very much still on knitting. I'm very glad that this is becoming your knitting. No, because because see, at the end of the day, if you don't evolve, you become irrelevant. And you guys had already gotten into this the reason, ethanol and power. So, that's already connected to the knitting, right? You're still adding value to your entire stick. We get into that. You are increasing complexity 10X, but that's the beauty of it. So, that's the joy of it. When we started doing ethanol or alcohol or whatever, it's really interesting. So, initially that is the thing. It's apples and oranges. It's suddenly from a mechanical process or a very physical process. It becomes a very, very biotech in chemical process. And yes, PLA is very similar in many ways, but of course, very, very 10X. But 10X is fine. Any growth rate of 10X is fine. So, I think. No, no, I'm more than you are. Like the amount I was excited even then. And he was like, seriously, is this good? Actually, it asked me that and I said, it's remarkable. Don't let her get away from it. But I have to say, dude, I'm actually wanting her to get away from it. I know what I have to tell you something that, you know, it's not. So, I knew about your company before you knew who I am. So, I'm also inspired by bio-based packaging in India to me. You're the pioneer. And I don't know who else does it. But the fact that you guys were buying bagas and doing celluloes base. Working stuff, yeah. Stuff, I mean, that also gave me confidence. Good, you should have met me before. We would have eged each other on more. I guess we would have met in children. Papa would have kept us apart. Because this daughter will go crazy as well. Yeah, he didn't want to reinforce unless it was good and easy for him. But it was very fast. Of course, of course. Because I met him one time when I saw that he's moving. He's changing tracks. He's now not saying, "Okay, somebody convinced my daughter what has she gotten into." He was like, "You know, yeah, this looks good." And then he first talked more about it. So, he's being in seem like it would have happened without him saying, "Yes, it cannot." So, the point was that if you ask him why he said, "Yes." And he said, "Because I ran out of things to say no to." Because the nose became yes. And we'll get to some of that. But tell me first about your learnings from your father. Apart from what you said in terms of his being able to connectivity and that. So stick to your knitting is of course a common one. That's the yes, that is. Because, you know, he. And I do, and I am learning that. You know, do the same thing every day. If you like it, if you don't like it, if you're upset, if you're happy, if you're sad. Just do the same thing. Do the same thing. It's boring, do it. It's fun, do it. You don't want to do it, do it. You're sick, do it. Doesn't matter. Just do it. You know, like Nike, I guess. Get your reps in. Yeah, get your reps in. And it really helps. Because everything just becomes second nature. And you're not even thinking anymore. And that's the beauty of it, you know. So that's that. The other thing is that it's this crazy, mad follow-up skill. Yeah. Okay, so. And I really, this is one thing that I'm only still learning. And people are already fed up with me. So I think they must hate him. But. And nobody hates him. I can tell you that. If something. I know people from the ground levels. If something is noted. Yeah. Yeah. But he's got a mechanism also, I think. It's it's crazy. Okay, but if something is noted. Yeah. He will follow it up to the ends of this world. He is capable of finding Shivji in Kailash because there was a follow-up point which was not a rest. And that had to be found. Okay, he can find anything for that. He will not let it go. Yeah, yeah. I also get straight messages from him direct. Yeah. And he will say this message. No, but he can. He will be like, and he won't even send the way he'll send a message. There will be an email that will come and there will be a copy on the WhatsApp that will come. So I'm like, I can read my email. No. But I'm like, okay, I better respond to both. Yeah. So follow-up. So he's he's follow-up king. And I think that I'm he's rubbing off on me a little bit because now I've been called a chaser. It's so important. I said, I hope not like for the drinks. Yeah, I think it is a compliment. Yeah. People have said, okay, I get it. You're a chaser. I was like, in India, it's like this. It's like whatever. It's a chaser. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so let's switch to now the kind of really getting to know you. Yeah. So did you while growing up? Did you think you would ever come into the business? And then of course you go and do a BA in US. And what is that about? What was your thinking as you were growing up? What did you want to be when you grew up and when did this idea that I'm going to come into the family business really emerged? You know, initially of course I didn't think I was going to get into the business. Yeah, growing up, it wasn't that. Growing up, not like the first thing I did. It was never going to be that. I always thought that maybe later in life, you know. Did you have a fantasy growing up that this is what I want to be? This is my childhood fantasy. I had sort of developed this want to be a restaurant. So that's actually what you did. Yeah, so that came early on. Yeah. And what was the instigator for that? Like food, love for food, food for the food. So I think I've traveled incessantly. Yeah. Since my parents have made apart from the summer and winter vacation, which were built. They did always take a holiday with us where we went to a different country every time. So I had traveled since the age of seven. And the food we ate. Yeah. Okay. I mean, if anything could give me happiness, it was good food. You know, it was always about food. Food say, looking at you, where is the food going? You talked to my friend. Okay. I'm lucky. Yeah. Metabolism is good. Yeah. And I do a fair share of running around, I guess. Yeah. I loved what I got to experience. Okay. And in Calcutta, there was just none of it. Yeah. You know, and I wanted to bring that to Calcutta. And though I studied photography and dance. And I was going to ask you, what was the BA? Because we tried to look up, but we couldn't find what was the BA. You could have said that. Maybe it was business management who knows. No, no. It was photography and dance. I was a free. Okay. No wonder she wants to see where the frame is. And you know, if this is looking okay or not. But I was a free bird. Oh my God. I did whatever the hell I wanted to. That's the way to study. And always, I think of course creativity has always been a very important part of what I do. I think aesthetics are very important. And I think that also some way comes from my grandma. Because if you weren't dressed up properly, she sent you back. You know. So she did that. I don't know. I think it's sort of transit. Also, if you see my mom, she basically looks like a glamour zone. 100%. The first time I met her, I didn't realize she was your mom. So I think beauty and aesthetically something good and pleasing, it's always been, you know, a part of the whole thing. So I think restaurants are a beautiful culmination of that. Because you first eat with your eyes and then you eat. So that is sort of what I wanted to do at first. And I did do that. But incidentally, that taught me that I'm capable of so much more. Because what happened with the restaurants was that, you know, I was doing it in partnership with the Olive Group. And they had no other outlet in Calcutta. There was no office. There was nobody to help me and for restaurants in Calcutta, you need 13 licenses. Okay. So every, but your mean, Balrampur wasn't helping you with that. No, because we have nothing here. We don't have any connect in Calcutta. What? Yeah. Once I got stuck on Calcutta Airport for some random reason. And I thought about calling your dad, but thank God I did. No, we have been absolutely useless. Okay. And to get every single license. I wait until he hears this one. He knows it. He can't deny it. So, but for every single license, I had to go to each department and get to know each person and get my file through each desk myself. Wow. That's great learning. Yeah. And this was right after college or a few years after. Maybe like a year or so. Yeah. You can very young. You can very young. This was the first time I was in Calcutta. I did it for six years before I joined World. And it's a pretty funky concept, right? For Calcutta. Yeah. It was a first gastropub in Calcutta. And we had a run. Oh my God. We had a phenomenal run. And that wasn't an issue with the stratified Calcutta society that has Narogi. No. That was never. Don't firstly watch Sarogi. No, no drama. We don't have all this in Calcutta. We are beautifully don't care about these things. At least my family has been like that's why I think all Calcutta is like that. But all of Calcutta cares. I can tell you that. I didn't know. At least from an outsider's point of view. You know, like there's so much of maybe that care. But like maybe by my generation, maybe they don't. So it's also whatever you do, you do well. Now that's important. So it was a great run to the point where like every Friday Saturday, I stopped picking up calls because there was so many. Because everybody was like, can you get me a table? And I was like, how do I do that? I'm a manufactured it. Like, yeah, it's full. I'm not here. You know, so I just wouldn't pick up the call. And suddenly, even like distant cousins, well, like, oh my God, Dee Dee. Yeah. Can you help me get a table? And I was like, you called me after seven years. To get a table. Yeah. So it was like it's hard to say no. So I stopped picking up the calls. That's how great I've done. It's true. You can survive. We had. Yeah. So of course, that was going well. And it was real fun. But I was given a choice. Actually, it was a moment in time that I can pinpoint. When my dad asked me, that do you want to do the business? Or you can be, you know, a shareholder and on the board in the future because I'm not, obviously, didn't think I was qualified to be on the board like young. You have to earn everything in the family anyway. So he said that you can be a shareholder and it can be run professionally. And it will be fine. Do you want to do it? And I was like, what kind of ridiculous question is that? Of course, I want to do it. You know, how can I let my grandmorms run business? My dad's blood sweat tears joy. Okay. It is my dad's joy. And he's really joy. Like, you know, I cannot let that be run by somebody who is not blood. You know, who will not have the same passion and things. Like, yeah. And no matter what is, you know, and I did not believe in this nature versus no, and this, I didn't not believe. Okay. But now I do. Tell me more. I really think that blood or what it does matter. Or maybe it's also the nurture. Expand on that because of course, this is a well thought of. Yeah, it is. Okay. So I'm a photography and dance major who ran a restaurant or two for a few years. Yeah. Why? Why did I feel like I was, I took to this business like a fish with two water. In fact, I felt after the first few months of training that, what was I doing with my life before this? This is, you know, when you have that moment in your life where you realize this is exactly where you are meant to be. Wow. That's powerful. And it's, I'm telling you it was that before PLA, before anything, and if PLA didn't happen also, now, yeah, you would still. I was exactly where I was always supposed to be. And I felt it right in the beginning. It wasn't like this is, okay, this has come to me. I need to carry on the family legacy now. No, no, no, no, no, no, I felt it on that day and I felt it every day after. It must have been such a huge support for your dad especially. I'm like, I'm, I'm, because you know, at least, at least a child is now as much as you guys may fight. But you know, it is, it is a big banter. Yeah, banter is a big banter. Yeah. So if we don't do that, there's no more badges. Okay, like we, I love it. I just love being in the same room as you guys. Why do you guys are bantering. You know, okay, let's, let's go to the banter between me and my dad, right? So honestly, when he's in office and I'm not there, or if I'm in office and he's not there, it's like really sad. Okay, because every, there's nobody, I can just blast into his room. Everyone and a half hours have some stupid as hell like change, which will seem like a fight and we'll, you know, we'll put the person who's sitting there in a really bad spot because they will have to pick who wins. Yeah. Okay. And then we walk out. So like we, we think that we might need to start charging ticket for entertainment. I think that's a good idea. You know, like I was thoroughly into it. Because we are the entertainers that, yeah, we have witnessed it and I've been thoroughly into it. And I'm usually on your side just for the sake of it. Well, I'm like, well, look at me. Of course, yeah, exactly why would I take with the excitedness? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I think it's really, really sort of enjoyable. And even that makes me feel like I'm in the right place. You know, if you got, so how many years has been, has it been when that feeling happened that, okay, this is this is what I think maybe like a month or two in, no, but from like how many years back, six years now. Yeah. And so initially, so you enter the sugar business. Yeah. Yeah. And what is, what is your role initially? How do you evolve your role? So, so the first thing, began with training, right? You have to know how everything is made to the point. And in the restaurant years, you were not involved at all. Like you zero. Zero. Ah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you do start with training. But the bid didn't even know, share price. Okay. Which is public information. Everybody else seemed to know. Yeah. Okay. Like I didn't even know our share price. I still like whatever it'll be, whatever it'll be. When usually like the people know these things. I didn't know anything. Yeah, that definitely knows. You're that definitely knows our share price. So he should know. But you know, it was it was zero. And then from the training of how everything works, how everything is made, where the moving bullets, it's not easy in that sense. But I enjoyed it. It was like a different world. It's amazing. Because it can be overwhelming. You are already a sizable public key listed. Yeah, but who cared that it was overwhelming. I mean, I don't think anyone knew what to expect, including me, right? So it was, I didn't care that I sounded stupid when asking a question. I didn't care what people thought of me because I've been bought up that way. Yeah. It doesn't matter what people think about. There's no insecurities. Zilch. Okay. You know, that's a huge plus. Yeah. And I think that that's always been me. And I think that if it hadn't been me, I wouldn't have said yes. You know, I was very okay with looking like an idiot. And I still am. You know, I ask, I ask silly questions even now. Like, you know, because well, there is no such thing as silly questions. Because, you know, I just, I don't think it's, I don't think it's wrong to want to know more. Absolutely. So I think that, you know, also for me, learning becomes, it comes only very visually. So like when I was learning that I needed to know exactly the inside of the machine also. Yeah. To understand why a certain thing is happening. Like, you put something in and then something else comes out, right? Why? Yeah. And even with PLA, it's that. Yeah. And even with the distillery and the sugar and the cogent and everything. If I cannot visualize how matter is going from one state to another state, yeah. I will keep asking questions until I can. So that it started with that. And then my role became. So how much time was that just to understand the layer of the land? So that was hectic three months, like really getting in and seeing the plants and Yeah, spending a lot of time at the thing, you know, just looking and seeing. and then seeing if I can try to remember and asking again and again, is it that? Oh, by the way, I had exams. Did you have to give exams that? Yeah, yeah. Your dad was taking them or other people would take them. My dad taught me nothing. Okay. So who was the examiner? All the unit head, H.O.P's, this, that, it was like that. Oh wow. How much has she understood? Yeah, and written proof was given then. Not just to my dad, but we have this thing called a general committee. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a family kind of this, no. No, it's actually the decision-making body in the company. Okay. So it's not like my dad or I or anybody makes like unilateral decisions. Yeah. For us, it's five, six people from all disciplines who come in, they're not. They're not. And then only things are decided. Okay. So like including what designation I would be was also like that, you know? So nothing is unilateral. Okay. So it's quite actually professional. It's a family run business. It's very, very, very professionally done. So that's the only way you can do things at the scale you are doing it. Yeah. And so the exams and this and that. And then after that, you know, they said, okay, now that this is done, we need to see where you will work. So two mandates were given. One was a sugar cane because actually my grandma would look at sugar cane. Okay. Yeah. With the growers and everything, right? It's a serious job. And one was value addition to product and by product. So obviously starting with sugar cane was much more like sort of full throttle, right? Yeah. It's there. It's there. Yeah. It's 550,000 farmers and 1,000 villages. And what do you have to create change? Right? You have your work cut out. Yeah. So what happened was that when I joined the business, then redrod hit. Redrod is the cancer sugar cane. And it hit our best variety. And there were laks and laks and laks of quintils of sugar cane lying outside villages, okay, which could not be crushed because it was diseased. Yeah. I couldn't believe it. For me, it was like destruction of value. Yeah. And the farmers. Yeah. And to see those tears, right, it's a barbat. Yeah. You know, full of target. Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot of. Yeah. So it was very bad. Yeah. So to bring the change in changing of the variety, changing of the practices to make sure that this redrod goes out, I didn't come back for two months. So every day I would wake up in the morning, have breakfast and go to the field and come back only when the sun went down. It's great training. Yeah. Training was done. Full for you. Full throttle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You were even prettier. No. No, tan. I think it was absolutely, but I am still telling you I loved it. Nice. Even that I loved. Yeah. You know. And it was, after that, I think I can understand how to create change in that world, which seems so difficult. And it's just, yeah, that was sort of how I began. I think first three years was mainly. And were you spending a lot of time in the mills then? Yeah. Once a month, I would go and I would go and I would at least go for a week and that two, three mills situation and go and really just meet growers after growers after growers after growers to the point where I was going to growers houses, drinking tea, eating food with them amazing. To the point of also addressing like 700 growers in a gathering, you know, and everything else in between. So it just dependent on what we needed to do in that. It's serious, real, real world training. Yeah. So let us switch to your journey with PLA. So you go and do these crazy things, spending a lot of time with growers, understanding the mills. When does this idea first, like, you know, just raise its head and how does it evolve? This idea of that I'm going to not just make that null or distill it into alcohol, which are things which are already existing. Why does this idea emerge and how does it evolve? So I think it was very important for me once I realized the contours of the business, you know, and the role that the government also has in it. And you know agro-climatic conditions matter so much. And you know, there is so much that just with the flick of a wand or the blink of an eye that can make or break that business, right? Which I wanted that there should be more value. How can we create more value? That was sort of also a mandate given to me. And it was also something that I thought that I don't like this control over me. You know, I've never, as you can probably imagine a dance and photography major doesn't like control on me. Even as a child, you know, I think I was not the easiest. I was probably a slight nightmare for my parents. But I think the children who are nightmares when they are young have what it takes to maybe figure stuff out later. You know, because so much questioning, so much wanting to understand why, so, you know, just so much of finding your own way in the world, you know. And so I was on the internet, right? Because that's something I had finesse over beyond anybody else in the company, right? The ability to scour the internet, you know? And that's what I started doing. And it was, I saw that, I saw a clear bottle. Okay. It looked exactly like a pet bottle. And it said in French that I made from sugar cane. Not that I know French, Google translate pages, right? So that was it. Okay. You know, that love at first sight moment, that was it. I like the serendipity, you know? Yeah. And, you know, I feel like it must be happening in everybody's life. You need to be able to commit, believe. Almost not. And I think that that's where my education has a role to play. You know, I think that the fact that I was in an engineer, I was not boxed in. You know, I didn't think that everything is so defined by these boxes and rules. I didn't know what the rules were. Best part, right? So it was, that's what made me believe that anything is possible. Did you have heard that saying about a B? No. So the B, if you look at a B's design, the body is very white. And the being span is very small. Aerodynamics. It cannot fly. But thankfully, the B doesn't know that. So that's a good thing that you did not know you cannot fly. I'm a B. Perfect. So that is the thing. And, you know, one thing about my education, not to lighten it. Like, actually, it was a liberal arts school. So what it did, what it taught me was to get through any kind of reading and make sense of it. I can read anything. Even technical documents. Anything I can read. Wow. That I have difficulty with. Even with my crazy education. You give me anything. I will read it. If I can't make sense of it, I will figure out online how, what this, that I'll make sense of the damn thing. How I do it is my problem. But I will get through it. And I will be able to tell you what it says in two sentences. So you are a pre-AI. No. A human AI. You know, is it important or not? And if it's important, then this is what it's saying. Let's not give it more than what it needs to be given. So I think that that in a, you know, US-based liberal arts education is taught very well. Yeah. You have to be able to present. You have to be able to make sense of things. And it could be anything, you know. So that is something that really sort of stayed with me. And I think that's why I was able to get beyond the surface of what it was. You know, I did so much reading. I did so much reading. I think I knew everything about PLA. Before I even, like, before it was even a proper concept, what do you call that big file which you say yes or no to a business plan? Yeah, business plan. Yeah. Before that, I knew everything. Everything I could find on the internet. I had read, bought articles and I knew. We would like to take a minute to thank our sponsors. Good garbage is sponsored by PAKA, a family of brands that produces compostable packaging and works to implement regenerative solutions. PAKA's new project is to bring compostable food service ware and food carry products to North American marketplace. Learn more at packer.com now back to the conversation. Let me take a step back. Yeah. So there is a bottle that attracts you and it's made out of sugar cane. There can be two reasons for that immediate love, right? One could be that. Where did it come from? Yeah, what is it within you? One can be that, okay, I want to create more value for my business, purely that. What is there another yearning? No. For me, no, no. I have a much deeper yearning. For me, I'm successful, all my farmers are successful, all my shareholders are successful, all my employees are successful. And was there any inkling around sustainability as well? Of course, of course, of course. That too, but for me, it began first as this. If I was able to create more value, that means I can give back more. That was the first thing. And the first test of sustainability is to sustain yourself. Otherwise, not much. I'm out of it. If you don't have a business that can run, then sorry, but you can. I mean, just a no-go-do doesn't. Yeah, you can make a lot of noise, but. Yeah, good. Then I might as. I could have been an activist, right? But what I wanted to create was value, right? And then, of course, even when you talk about. So sustainability for me had been already from the beginning, which I didn't even know why, but somehow it was there to the point where. I think, in the very beginning also when I was working with the growers, I would have a problem if there was some plastic gut-cutting or whatever littered in the field. If they had thrown something which shouldn't have been thrown. So, like, if I went to somebody's field, I was famous for it by the end of it. I made them pick up all the dirt. I used to start picking up myself in another joint. Same, same, same. Not like I. I'm that kind of person. But if I want something done, I'll just go and start doing it. And then everybody else will be like, "Okay, I'll also help." And that was always there in me. And I did not like. So, I'm going to push you a little bit more on this, because why was it there? You're born into a household that is fundamentally business-oriented. They're running businesses which are okay, farm-oriented. But end of the day, they are trying to make good in business. You live in a city. And many times in cities, you get. I know you travel, but where do you think that bone for sustainability came in? Because I obviously. Now that I know you a little bit, I know it's there. And it's also what your dad told me the first time now. He said, "She's one of your kind." So that's what I was told. I was like, "Oh, great." So, I think it comes from that. The very past thing of it is you want to do good, you want to do right, you want to do better. You want to leave the world better than what you found the world in every way. And this just came from within. And you don't want really moved me towards sustainability. If you ask that personal experience, so actually one. So I ride horses. And one of our horses passed away. And there is no burial ground per se for horses. And even incinerators and all they say, it's there, but it's not active. So we wanted to give a bye-bye to the horse. Like how you do it for a human being. For me, it was like a member of my family. And in that process, I realized that all large animals are taken to the Dhapa, what they call the Dhapa and Calcutta, which is the city dump. You dig a hole, you dump 20 of them, you shut the hole. And you know what the hole is? A garbage dump. It is like a mountain. And 4,000 tons of waste every day is added to that mountain. I went trying to go inside to do a proper burial. Because I was thinking, where do you get it? Some degraded something which looks like mud to appease my mind. But there was none. And I walked through that place. It's tank, of course, like anything. But it was just combusting. You know, there were little cows who were eating dirt. There were children who were growing up in that. They were like full families. And you had to see them. They don't even look human. They look animals. And they behave like animals. And I couldn't see it only. I just did not know that this is where everything would be through a way goes to. That is no a way. And I was just like cloth and plastic and metal and everything and everything. And I was in my God. This I can't stand. That's what you're motivated. And what happened also, like always as a child also. My mom and them were letting me throw something out of the window. And people do it. I couldn't deal with that. And it all came together. And when I saw that, that botlet was just like a. Okay. You know? That okay. Maybe there's more to this. And I was like good for my people, good for the world. It was like the holy grail. And it's exactly what ethanol was also doing. Reducing the fuel. And petroleum impact. Reducing the carbon footprint. Better for the world, earth, manil, everything. So sure, sustainable cause. I think for me, that is how it is. And the other are linked. And sustainability also means. It doesn't just mean like better for the earth. But at the end of the day, those things which are not sustainable. And they contaminate your food chain. Because I see the fields. I know what's going in there. And I always had this thing in the beginning also when I started. That why do you need to use chemical fertilizers? That question came very naturally to me. You know, why can't you use bio things? That was natural things. You know, what did you use before this became a thing in the market? Why can't we do that? Yeah, so the land connect was there. Yeah, yeah. I just wanted that we are producing food. At the end of the day, that food is being consumed by me and everybody around. So we should make that better. To the point, sustainability for me is that important that we produce. And we give free of cost bio and insecticides. Because those are the worst kind of things to be put in the bio-fungicides. That's a success. Okay. So we make this in the factories and give it free to the farmers. Because it's not that expensive for me. Because you're just growing a culture basically. But it just reduces the chemical load on the field. And if it's successful for one crop, it's successful for all the crops. And we don't tell them which field and all they need to put it in. They can do what they like. It doesn't have to be a cane field. As much as they ask we get. Nice. So because I just don't like this chemical chemical thing. So it's a deeper, it's not just about it. Everything. It's all connected as well. So, okay. You have a great idea. It's PLA. Nobody has done it in India. We import some. And there are mainly two big players in the world as well. And then this upstart comes in called Amantika Sarogi. And says that she's going to do a 75,000 ton plant. It's not a small plant by any standards. I think the new plants that are coming up are around that size. So how does it evolve from this craze bottle to. To this plant and then actually going and. Okay, let's do this. It's a 300 million or more dollars investment. 300 million. Yeah, 300 million dollar investment. So it's a significant investment. You have to believe in the project. You have to get everything together. It's not a simple technology. And then you have to actually start executing it. So how does that evolution happen? A great idea. Amantika Sarogi likes it. But then you actually move ahead with something that's concrete. And how does that happen? Yeah, so I mean it took its time. So it took four and a half years. On the drawing board. Yeah, before it was greenlighted. Four and a half years. Of convincing your father. Not just my father. Not just my father. But everybody who was in that general committee like I'm doing. Everybody had their own anger. Yeah, it's a lot of money. Yeah, and of course, as it seems, if you don't respect the money, the money will not come to you. And without that, you cannot make any damn difference in the world. And you know, I think that we must not sort of, I never say that it's not about the money. Because if it's not about the money, then you are not going to be able to sort of make it big. So first, it has to be a good business. And then only can it make a good mark in the world. And it has to probably be better than what you're doing now. Yes. Because otherwise, why not just set up another sugar mill? That's baseline, of course, of course. So you know, so basically we did these feasibility studies. And this, that and the other, the same question. 75,000 times can't be do a smaller size, can't we have a smaller investment and What if that happened but I mean when you do the math right your operating cost cannot be at a disadvantage to the other people So you have to be able to produce at Either equal or below your competitor otherwise It's going to when the ship starts to sink you will sink first So that's how also we've made it good in Balrampur, Chini and ethanol is like if the ship sinks you we sink last You just be the last one to sink It's like you heard the tiger and the Reebok story pretty much like you just don't have you don't run the fastest You should run yeah exactly Fast then the other guy yeah faster than the other guys right and not the other guy but the other guys You want to be at the forefront Yeah, you know, so I think that was that was one of the that was one of the reasons by scale became very important Then the second thing was that you know this government If this government wasn't in place and I mean central as well as state. Yeah Then we wouldn't have gone for this. Oh wow, okay, because we definitely feel that if you are trying to do good This government will support you Yeah, and I think that we It is for everybody to see really there's now proof of that which I will talk about in a minute. Yeah, but so You know, it's it's the confidence of this Or both governments wanting to make a positive change in the world just like we want to do that So the UP government has given us a An incentive scheme, okay of a 50% capital subsidy Given to us over seven years a 5% interest of mention. Yeah Which is that we pay 5% less interest than anybody else. That's amazing, right and Also a state G a state state net reimbursement as well as these you know, which is above and beyond their regular They are way above and beyond to show you that if you are putting one foot in For a good cause we will put two feet in with you did you have to really Commence them and work hard on the policy side to be able to make them see the light that this is something that is going to make a huge impact You know, it was easier than I thought it okay. I thought it was going to be absolutely crazy, but You know our chief minister yogiji he looks like this man in this orange car But he is not yeah, he's smart He is sharp. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. He is sharp. The from the first time he heard the idea. Yeah Okay, and he's very keen on this anyways. Yeah. Okay. He said do it. Yeah, and You know he when when he you know, so we had to announce the project before I mean we we wanted to do it anyway Okay scheme or no scheme or whatever. Yeah, we we wanted to do it. Yeah And at that time the project cost was 2000 crores when we had approved the project. Yeah, and Then they announced the scheme and then what happens is that you go to other levels of you know Finding out you're doing this and that and now the project cost is 2,800 Yeah, well, and thank God for the scheme. Yeah. Yeah, you know Yeah, and that makes your life much easier and the project way more Bible Bible. Yes, but everything only kicks in once you start Selling sure basically that's which is right. You know, I respect you can build it in at least yeah It was the CM who was convinced first and then you saw it in the bureaucracy You know they are also very yeah, it's very proactive, you know They the the the chief secretary the industrial development council that they have invest you P all of these guys are Ready to sort of jump in with you help you in any way that you need if you are doing good work, you know and It's it's really nice to have to be living in this time. Yeah, absolutely where the government is really Egging you want to do good rather than trying to see how they can make a bag from it. Yeah, yeah, you know, it's a big difference It's huge. Yeah, and it's it's been I think it's I couldn't believe it. Yeah You know, I just couldn't believe the support Which we got and they they would ask questions you would give the answer they would ask questions you'd give the answers and one fine day It goes like this is the this is the bio Yeah, polymer policy that and so it goes a little bit beyond and we talked about it. I remember I think a Couple of times when we were chatting on this whole idea of biopark That's a brilliant idea too and how did that emerge because what happens is that you are now Not just setting up a PLA facility but more and you're setting up an ecosystem for people to come in if they want to yes And they have that encouragement that the transport goes down you have many materials You're not just making a plasticizer or polymer, but you are actually seeing it being made into different things because obviously for you to actually Develop all that is tough, but then you have so many people who'll take your raw material from you and develop it right there. So how did was that something that you guys initiated was at the Government that worked with you to build this whole We did give the idea Because as you rightly said that you know making a Bio polymer or a plastic is just one part of the game right for it to become something that goes to the consumer There are so many steps that it needs to go through that if all of those steps combine I think the speed can increase 10x yeah, you know and then the believers have a place to be together, I guess and It we we've tried to design the cluster which is also still kind of coming up It's not a little keep evolving. I don't think they'll be here, but it's not just Compounders converters and that kind of thing. It's also labs. It's also academia. It's also training It's also everything so that whole area will change It's not just about Industrial bone in my body along with the environmental bone in my body satisfied Nothing brings me greater happiness, you know then creating something which is good for everyone Every will move in or I didn't realize it was that big like academia I want to bring in so I'm already in conversation with a number of people including Yes, yes, but this this is a sort of The plan and you know, we want to make it so that it's something that lasts That it's not just a sort of Just a flame that goes out, you know, it's a fire. I told your dad on a larke literally Consider 10,000 tons at least sold. I know we're taking that We figure out what we are going to do with it how will be connected to paper How will we make it into bio cutlery or whatever? But if you guys are going to make this and that was part of my way of also Trying to get reinforce the idea that what your daughter is doing is quite amazing. Yeah, it's not well I don't think he ever thought it was useless, but he didn't want to challenge you a bit And I think that's a good thing so so just going forward on that so there's always that challenge of Costing competing with the petroleum polymer with all these kind of Sobs that you've gotten The size that you're doing. I'm sure it'll be very efficient because I'm sure you'll use the latest technology And we also absolutely insane so that's all the thing. That's what you want to be Why would you be saying you know like Steve Jobs said or somebody said no all changes are done by unreasonable people You know the PLA technology in the hand of Indians. Yeah, you have jugard as their DNA. Yeah The efficiency is gonna change it could go either way In our company it only goes on way. Yeah, there's no They'll further kind of I can write it with my blood today. Yeah, yeah That will go beyond the capacity that they're thinking I don't know about capacity But you like efficiency yeah, you know how much you put in versus how much you get out depending on all of the things that go Including power including everything. Yeah, so when you look at the absolute cost Are you where are you do you think you will try to compete head on or you would stay? Yeah, yeah petroleum No, no, see with 80,000 tons you cannot compete head on it's true. I think it's not possible a regular ppp Pette line is 400 to 500,000 tons. Okay, at that scale maybe I could compete You know and and what are you thinking as the premium in terms of when you do your when you do your projections? Yeah, what do you Almost double almost double or let's say double only. I don't see less than double to anyone Because see I think that there is enough happening in the country and You know to sort of help with this you know the point is that single use plastics a lot of them are banned Right, so in this case that's not a theory aren't you see? You're wanting to enforce it and when they have an alternate then they can just now that becomes the challenge Yeah, and what's happening now is that they are enforcing it in whatever way that they are but then what's happening? What's happening is that imports are also coming in right? Yeah, so that is the the thing that strikes everybody. So when I have to compete with wood or glass or metal or even paper for that matter, then I can compete, you know, in one way or another. People will never be a competition. It's totally different structurally. Yeah, and I mean, it'll be more complimentary. Yeah, that's what I mean to say. So like, if I don't have to compete with regular plastic, with the other things we can work. Yeah, you know, and so that sort of is that. Plus, I think that again, I have complete belief, you know, that if you're trying to do everything good and right, the universe helps. Absolutely. Absolutely. What's been the, of course, people must have started talking to you a lot, and I know that you are all over the map trying to, you know, build kind of these bridges. So what has been the market response so far that you see there being an overwhelming kind of desire to take material. Where are you on that? So, so, so. Okay. How much of it are you sold? I mean, I don't think I can say. No. But it's a good number. What I can say is that we're doing 50 plus trials. Okay. The headroom is immense. Yeah. If everything, these are different materials that you'll produce from the PLA. Yeah. Yeah. Like different applications. So, if things go well, then I think that, okay, so I tell you how you will get to know if I'm successful. Okay. That's a good one. Okay. Everybody will get to know. Yeah. Because if after commissioning within a year, I am not announcing at least a doubling of capacity. Consider me failed. Awesome. I love it. So that's my goal. That's amazing. That was my subsequent questions. Yeah. So the way we've set up this plant is already for double. So, I mean, who you're not thinking about. You're not thinking small. You're any standards. How can you? Look, like if you, if you, who thinks that 80,000 tons will only be their business, impossible. And actually really, really not good business to think like that. And then you, one of the global players, when you actually 150 and more. Yeah, but you know what? I want to make a difference in my country. Yeah, but you don't have a problem if it gets exported. No, I mean, in the sense that, okay, but at least one or two more steps of value addition. Absolutely. So why, why, of course, you know, there are products lying right there. Yeah. And you know, you have been showing me products from time to time. And is it going to be a single kind of structure of PLA? Or you're going to also do some different kind of products? Or that's all post PLA manufacturing compounding. However, you see. So at the moment, definitely what you said right now, post PLA manufacturing. PLA is one brand new. Yes. That's one. You know, you can, you can, you can have any color till it's black kind of an idea. One, one, one structure. So with compounding, the whole world opens up. Absolutely. Right. So I think that, you know, it depends on the application and then the compounding. But if you're asking me and I think you are asking me a larger question as to what else, how, when, what, like, let me give you my five year plan which will make you feel you're happy. Great. I hope. I'm already happy with your two year one. So go ahead. So the next step will be apart from expanding to reduce the cost of the resin. We will be working on co-polymers, right, which might battle some inherent troubles that are not troubles even. But like inherent disadvantages of PLA that we get to here, you know, maybe like barrier properties for one, right? Or heat coefficient. Whatever, right? Whatever some people want to do something but they're facing a technical challenge. So maybe definitely co-polymer is going to be something in the mix. I am working very seriously as well on wanting to use other sources to make PLA. So we will have a grain. Beyond your own. Yeah. See, grain version will be there because it's coming from the same farmers. So what happens if for any reason sugar is short in the country, right? Food will always take precedent and I want that to happen. I'm not myopic enough to say my business should do well so people should not have sugar. Sorry. That will never be me. Yeah. Okay. And because you're also doing it straight from the juice. We're doing it from sugar. Sugar. Yeah. You produce the sugar there. And I tell you why as well. Green will definitely be something that will be a bolt on there. Sorry. And what is that grain? It can be anything. Anything that has most likely rice and maize in our country depending on, you know, basically how. Not potatoes. No, because I don't think we are surplus there. I'm thinking in every like for me, it's not environmental. It's socio-environmental. Every thought is socio-environmental. The socio will never go out. The environmental will never go out. Okay. For example, our plant is going to be the first in the world which will be made only from renewable energy. Oh wow. And I'm like we had that thought. Don't plan all that. Bhagavad Sivanthika please. Don't worry. Don't worry. It's 3G, 4G, all different sources. But no, you have to understand that the point is that they asked me that should we have the option for coal. Most definitely not. Yeah. Most definitely not. Yeah. That takes away from the purpose. I mean, it's not like I will not accept that. So I cannot give up either of those rules. So we will be working. I mean, we want to work on agricultural residues. To produce fermentable sugars. And then you can make ethanol, PLA or any other thing from it. So that is definitely a serious thing that I'm working on. And cost-wise does it? I'm sure it matters, right? If you're making it from sugar versus a starch. When we have coal, maybe we'll be able to figure something better out. Okay. It's my hope. Yeah. Right now, right now from a lowest cost perspective. Okay. What is it? Between starch and sugar. Yeah. It won't be that different. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. So you're not worried about that. No. It's not like, okay, you'll have a lower cost substrate and a higher cost substrate or raw material to be. That's not the case. It won't make a material difference. Let's put it like that. There'll be a difference, but it won't be material. And it will depend on the though, then price of those commodities. How is it I'm totally taking a side turn? Yeah. How are you managing family? With all this craziness that you're up to, you have a young son, husband, is it, is it you are able to balance everything or is it being a challenge? It's a mess. Love how you put it straight up. But a good one. A good one. They're all supporting all your craziness. Of course. Of course. Look, I can't be sitting in front of you and talking about all these things so happily. Yeah. If my mind in reality is at E, okay, my mind is most definitely at E. Okay. If I have to travel, I don't have to worry about it. You know, I have enough family. I have enough supportive. That's amazing. Yeah, and very hands on and like of even staff. Yeah, because I've seen you with your son. You're very hands on. When I'm there. When you're there. Yeah. So, you know, for example, it means you sleep less. It means you don't have a social life at all. Like I told you your horses get enough of you. Yeah, they do. Only my friends don't. And then it's just very easy. I just have almost zero friends, which is fine. I mean, I can count those on my on my fingertips. And I'm more than happy with that. They are like family. And I don't think I would have it sort of any other way. I love it. And so for example, like sometimes I'm traveling for work. Sometimes I'm traveling to visit my husband at a horse show because he's competing. He's a very, very, wow. He's a very senior horse rider. One of the best. Oh, I didn't know that in the countries. Yeah, he represented the India and the Asian games and. Wow, that's serious. Yeah. And he's going to try again this year. And so he's very serious about this. And as an inconvenient as it is, riding season and sugar season is the same. Oh, well done. It keeps so beautiful. So we can sometimes mean that. And I take my son along. And like, even before I got here, I took my son horse riding. Oh, nice. And I was right. So you're able to, yeah. So that family activity that we do, you know, and I think also what keeps me kind of sane, I would say. So it was, it's like that, you know, I sometimes wake up in the morning and I have to think, okay, where am I? I was like, like, you don't know this, but day before we had some trials in a place near Cambridge. So I flew into London, I rented a car, drove to Royston, did those trials, came back to London, took a flight to Paris, and then I was talking to some people in online call and I was just telling them this is, and then I'm flying to Delhi and then to Calcutta. So they were like, how do you manage that? I said, I'm both obsessed and possessed. Do you have a good exorcist? So they were like, yeah, we'll find one for you. I said, I need that to be able to get off my. Anyone who tells you it's not crazy. Yeah, it's fun. Yeah. So what is it like? Like of course, the Balrampur Chini has been there for a while. And there's this new energy that has come in clearly. And what is it like to take a traditional company and turn it on its kind of, whatever you call it? Like turn it into a very different thinking company. What is it like? - It's the most beautiful experience I have to tell you because everybody wants to contribute. We have 6,000 plus employees. - Wow. - Okay. And everybody wants to help. So when help is needed, there are 10 people rushing to give you that. They're just waiting for the command. You, I think, I see-- - It's a lot of support. - And it is, and they're so passionate and they are so driven to make it better. It's unbelievable. - So you're not the only crazy one there. - Everyone is glad. - That's good. You know, and I see people getting younger with this. Okay, because even the 60 somethings are finding ways to contribute to making this new thing. Because everybody wants, everybody feels that they are making a difference not just in Balrampur, but in the country. - You know, they're all part of the bio-yug. - Yeah. (laughing) - Or bio-generation. - Yeah. - I'm going to start taking it towards closure. I know that you have a-- You have a tight timeline as well, a deadline as well. You said a beautiful thing in somewhere where you said sugar cane is a catalyst for the future. So when you look at the future and you started mentioning it, if you look at it from a scale angle, like you said, this is going to double. Great. Now if you look at it instead of a five or 10 year horizon, what will your dream be? Will you look at-- And you can go beyond PLA, of course. - Of course, I will. - PLA and this. What is your 10 year dream? - So I think definitely one more biomaterial or chemical or polymer in there, for sure. Because I think it just makes sense. It makes sense for the world. It makes sense for Balrampur. And it will make sense financially also, considering the way things are going globally. So I think that if it's not financially viable, they will make sure that it is. Because regulations will come in and things will happen. So it's very, very important. And I think you already understand it. But I think that the nature's balance is so fine. Right? That when we talk about things running out or things making a bad difference in the world, even a 0.1% deviation from nature's balance. Creates global warming like we see it today. And do you know why I feel it? It's because we can't predict anything with the crops anymore. We can't predict anything. - Yeah, and you see it. - And I see it and I feel so upset about it. Because you see the large scale impact. The growers are like, "Ari, esa tu kabhi nahi ma." This has never happened before. And I hear it. I am telling you, I hear it every year. So I can literally feel global warming harder than anyone. Anyone in an agriculture business can feel global warming harder than anyone around them. And I think that it's, we must try to bring nature's balance back. And with the growth and everything happening, how else do you do that? You have to pump out less fossil-based resources. I think that's the only way in the long term to cut emissions, cut CO2 being added to the atmosphere. You just stop pumping or it's not going to stop. It's silly for me to say that. But you cut it down. With a growing population, if you're able to cut down the fossil extraction, we might go to a good place, even in the future. We may not need to be doomed. - True, yeah. - You know? And I think that governments are realizing that. Or to rely on it at least, because both the things in terms of ethanol and PLA, they have a direct impact. And think about it for yourself and for me. We are lucky enough to be in this moment in time where everything we do becomes green automatically. We don't even know how to do brown stuff. Yeah. Apart from its color. Very brown. We at least have the colors. I'll end baggages, but okay. No, I'll say. My skin tone. But you know, I think that it's really, it's really like we've been given this golden opportunity. And if we don't make something of it in this moment, then we are doing the world a great disservice. Yeah. More power to you, but I come back to my question. How many terms of PLA in 10 years? Give me your audacious best. Tons of PLA in 10 years. Maybe a triple of this? That's not bad. Yeah, but like I want more molecules. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know how many terms of molecules. I don't know. How many terms of polymers? Why don't you, why don't we put it this way? So in terms of sugar. Yeah. How much sugar would we want to repurpose into other value added? And I don't be only sugar, but only see it's only the only way I can sort of put it. So I would think that maybe the, the commodity output reduced to 50%. OK. And then we do something better with the result. And you'll probably keep going sugar anyways. Of course. So you'll grow sugar. Yeah, depends on the government. And all that. But as we stand today, I think we have enough scope to add value. Because India is a sugar surplus country. Yeah. And people are reducing their sugar intake. So maybe that's true. And yeah, I mean that that would happen at some point. And I think that it's very important to do something. Everything aligns, don't you see? Yeah. It's like-- It's the right timing for the sugar consumption to go down. You're like, good. It's not even like, honestly, it's just happening. And if I don't do something with that, you know? You can keep struggling in the same thing. And hope that people will eat more sugar and consumption. But why would I hope? Yeah, yeah. No, I'm saying if somebody else wasn't looking at things, the way you're looking at it. So what's your total sugar output now? So that depends on the-- Proximity. --of the covering. And so it's easier to say that we crush 80,000 tons of sugar in a day. Let us say your we crush between 10 to 11 crore quintals of sugar. Sugar cane. If you take average of 10% recovery, the recovery-- I'll let-- The math. Everybody do the math. But especially the international audience who doesn't understand crores. I have a demo. OK, we're around 12 black tons. Oh, yeah, yeah. So anyway. So the point is-- 1.2 million tons. OK, yeah, you do that. I'm bad at that part. So let's say a lot of-- Yeah, that's a lot of sugar. And what is one ton of sugar converted to PLA? What is that conversion? The moment, the conversion is 1.7 tons of sugar would give you one ton of PLA. But of course, we would optimize that. For example, the global leader is already saying 1.5 to 1.5. Now you're talking. Now that is audacious. If you say 50% of your even current capacity is 600,000-- We're already going there. But we're already going 10% with one plan. So if I'm thinking of triple and a molecule, 50% is gone. Nice. Amazing. And that takes me to my final question. What is good garbage mean to you? The kind of garbage that's kind to the earth, you know? Nice. And I have enough data on why PLA is nice to the earth. Well, for sure. I'm sure you know more about that. Yeah, and people can say whatever they want. But ultimately, it's coming from a very renewable resource. It does decompose. Of course, it has many, many things you can do like you talked about. So I want to give an interesting-- What? --interesting sort of metric there. So we did a study, you know, meta basically. And you know, kind of figuring out in the environment, how much time would it take for PLA to go away in India? So it depends on what condition it's in. But anyway, between 1 to 12 years, PLA would be completely gone, not emitting methane. And being sort of environment neutral is the conclusion of that. I'll give you even better study. Yeah. I like conservative. Yeah, no, I'll give you even better study, which is up close in person. So of course, when we manufacture stuff which is compostable, we don't want to package it in a petroleum polymer. So we used PLA. Oh my gosh, the number of complaints we got-- --pattery thing is really bad. --integrating on the shelves. So we're trying to figure that out. That also shouldn't happen. So actually, that's a very important thing for the audience, like for people to understand that when you want something to go away, you still have to make it usable. It's a fine line. And I think I commend people like you and the rest of the community who makes these things usable really. And without that entire community, my PLA means nothing. So yeah. I know that we haven't covered a lot. And a lot of my questions remain, but I will, I will let you go at this stage. But Avantika, it's such a joy to know you right from the first time, like I said, when I heard about the way you were thinking from your dad to the time when we met and subsequent meetings, because I think we all need that kind of fresh energy and somebody who's thinking even beyond what we've been thinking. So thank you so much for doing this, thank you for doing this in India, thank you for thinking at the scale you are thinking because that's what's going to make a big difference and more power to you just keep at it. Thank you. And thank you for taking this time. Thank you.