[MUSIC] Hey friends, want to give a quick shout out and thank you to Logify who made this episode possible. If you aren't familiar with them already, you absolutely need to go give them a look especially if you are a new hospitality entrepreneur. I always say that for somebody who's building a real hospitality business without the backing of a big management company, Logify is absolutely worth the look. It's the platform that I recommend for posts who are entrepreneurial, but again, who are just starting out and we have a small portfolio and don't have huge aspirations to scale to be a 250 properties under management sort of group. Logify is built for entrepreneurs. It's built for the next generation of great hospitalityitarians. You can use the code
[email protected] for 20% off any yearly or by yearly plan. This offers valid to October 31st. Again,
[email protected]. Thanks to the team there, they are so freaking responsive. Everyone I've talked to who is a customer of theirs has nothing but great things to say about their features and their customer service. So go give Logify a look if you haven't in a while and tell them that Zach from behind the stage sent you their way. So the title was going to be Please Disturb. And it's actually Tim Ferris, like these conversations that I had with him early on in the before the book proposal was finished. He's the one that said I think it should be Please Do Disturb. Wow. Yes. Totally him. And I don't know if he wants me telling everyone like these conversations that I'm sure it's okay, right? But anyway, so he was the one that said you've got to call out recovery paradox and you've got to say please do Disturb. And I was like you're totally right. Like it sounds better and it does, right? In just a moment you'll meet Rachel all day co-founder of a Boed Luxury Rentals and author of the forthcoming book Please Do Disturb. I brought Rachel back on the podcast because she's an awesome friend of mine, but also because the frameworks and lessons that she outlines in her book have guided her and her team to build a Boed Luxury Rentals into one of the most respected vacation rental management companies in the country. Rachel tells a story early in this conversation about a guest family that called her team constantly with complaints and then asked to extend their stay. What our team discovered when they stopped being defensive and started being curious became the foundation for everything that she's built since she breaks down the framework behind it. Three deceptively simple commitments she and her co-authors spent years uncovering show up, make room and build belonging. We get into the service recovery paradox. A concept Tim Ferris personally pushed her to put in the book and why managing a mistake well can create a more loyal customer than a flawless experience ever could. Rachel makes a sharp case for why outsourcing guest communication to AI might be the single worst place to cut corners and where she thinks AI actually belongs in vacation rentals instead. We talk about the real cost benefit of writing a book while running a business. We talk about what a breathing coach taught her about leading under pressure and why presence the kind where the rest of the world genuinely disappears might be the most underrated competitive advantage in hospitality and hospitality leadership right now. Friends, you're going to love this conversation with Rachel. Be sure to order her book. Please do disturb wherever you get your books. You can preorder it now. There's a link in the show notes below. Rachel, thanks for taking time to chat with me today. You all are going to absolutely love our conversation without further ado. Get ready to hear from Rachel all day. Rachel all day. Welcome my friend to behind the stage. Good to have you back. Thank you. I'm glad to be on. I um, I feel like I talk with you way more often than I do because we interact a lot online. We do. I love your stuff. I love your content. I love how engaged you are always with everybody. It's just amazing. So this is a, this is a real treat and I was thinking about this Rachel before we hit record here. I think I hope I'm not mispeaking, but I think you're the first person I've ever had on the podcast to talk about a book launch. So this is like a release. This is a real first. I think so. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm excited. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I mean, many of the people I've had on the show have like written books, but like we never, I think this is the first episode where it's like, hey, you've got a book coming out really soon. You've been, uh, you know, talking a little bit about it. I've heard incredible things about it. I got to read a little sneak peek of the first chapter last night, which was great. So, um, I'm just really excited for this conversation and got loads of questions I want to ask you. I know you can't give everything away because then no one will get most of it away. I think it's okay. I feel like the concepts like in the book are they're, they're not like super complicated, you know, it's more just the idea of thinking about them, but it's not like I don't feel like it's unveiling some giant mystery. It's more like shining a light on something that we just forget to think about. But what I think that's actually where like the magic lies, right? Where it's like, as I was reading, again, the the preface and the first chapter last night, I was just struck by how it's almost like when somebody reveals something to you that you've always kind of like known, but like, let yourself, didn't give yourself the time to like, marinate. That's what I feel like your book does. It's like, it says the thing, you know, to use a AI generated contentism, like, the quiet thing out loud, right? Which is like, which is like, you know, talking about leadership, talking about the importance of building a team, talking about the importance of, of enabling a culture that allows people, it gives them the permission, really celebrates them for asking for help, for asking for guidance, for, for sharing the hard things. Which again, is, is something that's been said many, many, many times, but the way that you articulate this, the stories that you use are, are just so compelling. So first and foremost, congrats on this labor of love. I can't wait to see how the world loves it, but I'm sure they're gonna, they're gonna love it just as much as I do. Hopefully, yeah. Yeah, no, it's been like writing a book, the project of working on a book of, just in and of itself, is like so exciting and fun to me that I every time I talk about it with someone, which this is my nature, a lot of the time anyway, but it's like, oh my gosh, everyone should do this, everyone should write a book because it is just like the process to me was something I never knew about, like I never knew how, I mean, I thought that people wrote a book and then they went to like, get an agent and a publisher and yeah, and when you're dealing with nonfiction books, especially if it's like business or self-development, you know, you don't write the whole book, like you first create a book proposal. And to me, just that whole concept was like a whole new world of how it works to get a book done, kind of, you know, if you're not self-publishing, right? Like if you're doing it within the kind of more old-fashioned, you know, using a big publishing house method, it's, it's just a really cool process that I never understood, I never knew anything about. And so learning about that in and of itself was like a really fun project, I'm not gonna lie. I think I think anybody would probably enjoy it. So now that I've done this, I feel like I find myself talking different and people that I'd meet and they'll say, you know, I've been thinking about doing a book and I'm just like, oh my gosh, you should, it's a cool process, yes. So I want to ask about this because I've never actually thought about writing a book. I think it may be fun to do one day maybe, but then what I always think about Rachel is like, all right, it's a lot of time, it's a lot of, right, it's a lot of effort. And does the content quickly become outdated? Number one, number two, when you can kind of hop on and just go on people's podcasts or build your own podcasts, right? Like help me understand to somebody who is a prolific, you've already been a prolific content creator, a prolific thought leader in your own, right? So I don't feel like that, but thank you. I mean, you're, you're so good at going out there, you know, espousing what you think you've obviously built an incredible business with your husband and partner and crime at a bunch of rentals. And a lot of this, a lot of what you share in the book, obviously, like it's built around lessons learned while, while, while building a boat. But, but help me understand the cost benefit analysis from your perspective, right? As someone, okay, but like, why, why do a book versus just a podcast versus just going on other people's podcasts like help me understand? You've done it all, I guess, but like, how was, how was thinking about the time investing in the book different? Yeah. So for sure, I spent money to get the book done. I got it done really quickly. And so I would say it's a luxury to be able to do a nonfiction book. If you want to do it while you're working and really busy, because of course, then you would need help and that cost money. So no one should kid themselves. If you're running businesses and you want to write a book, like, it's probably going to cost money. And so to me, it's not a, this was never about making money. For me, the book was, I think I've talked about this so many times, but really it's like someone a few years ago, someone in the industry that runs another really awesome vacation rental company, had come to me and they were asking about like, how do we train our team on hospitality? And they were saying, "Oh, I've looked at a boat's reviews and they're so good."
What are you doing to make sure that you provide this amazing hospitality to get all these great reviews and could you maybe teach my team? And so I was like so flattered, you know, because I think when you're in your business and you're just grinding, grinding, grinding, and you don't, I didn't even know that anyone noticed what we were doing. And I did, like I definitely didn't expect any of my peers to say something like that to me, probably because I was so blind or so on grinding. I'm not sure that I noticed all these details with other people. So it was really flattering. And I kind of said, let me get back to you. And I talked to my husband about it and we were like, how are we training our team hospitality and what could we share with someone else? And we didn't really know. Like we have processes and training that we do for guest services or for inspections or housekeeping. But there wasn't like an overarching hospitality training. And so that's what kind of prompted me. We have these company culture consultants we've been working with for a really long time called tandemly. And they've been, you know, doing a ton of stuff with our team. And so I sat down with them. And I was like, hey ladies, it's Lenny and Hart. And they're my co-authors in the book. And I was like, what, how could we come up with a framework here? And they know us and how we run our business. Like, could you help me come up with a way to understand what is the overarching concept that we're training people on that's allowing all these guests and homeowners to feel that we're giving really good hospitality. And so that took like a long time. We sat down over many meetings and kind of ended up with the framework. And after we had that framework, we looked at it and we're like, this is kind of a framework for leadership as much as it is for hospitality. And then it was just like, what do we do with the framework? Of course, we'll work with our team on it. But what else? I mean, we should tell other people. And so it became like, should we do a LinkedIn post? Should we do like a series of posts? What should we do? And Lenny and Hart, like I said, their consultants and they do trainings. And, you know, they speak on different topics. And so it kind of became like, well, I guess I would love to work on a book. Because once I thought about the book and I looked into how this all works. I was intrigued with the book writing process. So I was like, let's do a book. And then, you know, if the book leads to people wanting trainings and webinars and stuff, then, you know, Lenny and Hart could handle like a lot of that work. That's their focus in their career. And then I would have been able to share what I came up with, which felt like something I should just tell everyone, which I'm kind of like that anyway. It's like any book that I read, I become obsessed and like want to tell everyone about the book and whatever. And so, so anyway, it was just kind of a matter of me being like that. Like wanting to tell everyone something that I learned and then thinking, okay, it's a book. And then it's just organically. It was like, oh, this is a fun process. Let's let's go. And so that's how we ended up where we are today, where the book is coming out in November. And I've been doing a lot more promotion than I had in the last like month or so. Because I have some like pre sale deadlines. And so I've been starting to really, you know, be more engaged about sharing the concepts of the book with more people so that it can be kind of more widely known. And that's been really fun. Like that's not something I've ever done before. So, so yeah, it came from me needing to find out what it was. What was like the thing behind the thing, right? Like what were we really training? If you weren't looking at the detail, like what was the bigger picture and it ended up being connection, right? Like I'm so everything in my life has been coming back to connection for like at least 18 months, maybe two years now. I feel like there's just so many things about what I do, whether it's like being on the board for V.R.M.A. And that, you know, the idea of connecting with all of our members and trying to connect with more people in the industry, like that's been really important to me as part of my work with V.R.M.A. Everything that I do when I lead my team is always about connection because I have this team of over 50 people and I my husband and I never intended. We never thought we'd hire like more than one or two people. And so that's been a huge lesson and and also just maintaining our relationships with our customers with the guests and the homeowners. That's been a labor of love and like something that you know went well for us from the beginning, but I didn't understand why until we did some of this work for the book. Hey guys, so I was talking to an S.T.R. host that I know last week and she found out that when someone opens chat chat and type find me a cabin in the smokies for a long weekend. Her neighbor's place is coming up, but hers isn't she kept like trying to reprompt it, but couldn't find like her her place. It's in the same town. It's a somewhat property. It's got similar reviews right. So there's nothing more remarkably different between the properties except for the fact that her neighbor has a direct booking website built the right way. And she just has an Airbnb in verbal listing as we know as you've heard about a Nazi met this point, AI is becoming the new front door for travel discovery and most hosts don't even have a doorbell so to speak. Chat GPD isn't scrolling Airbnb listings it's pulling from websites that it can actually read again for context here. Chat GPD has very limited access if any access to Airbnb proper what it doesn't have access to is loads and loads of websites and it uses websites to read contextualize and recommend places to travel to users who are prompting it. So what this really means is that if your property lives exclusively on someone else's platform like Airbnb or Verbo, you're basically invisible to the next generation of how people find places to stay. Even if you have your own direct booking site, but you haven't optimized it for AI so to speak and you haven't made it searchable and and contextually relevant to agents. Same thing right like you're you're just not being discovered. Logify fixes that so logifies direct booking website is built to get found by AI they call logify the new AI PMS their channel manager their guest messaging payments it's all in one place and everything talks to each other furthermore logify takes 0% on direct booking so if you generate a direct booking. Logify is giving all of that cash money to you so the money the guest pays is the money that you keep and again if you're not familiar with PMS is most of them do this but logify definitely does this when a guest pays you get paid immediately right so you don't have to wait until check in or in some cases check out like Airbnb often makes you wait. And their AI co host handles guest communication around the clock so you're not the one texting the Wi-Fi password is on the fridge at 2 a.m. anymore so if you're an owner operator someone who's building a real hospitality business without the backing of a big management company logify is the platform that I recommend for you full stop. You can use the code BTS 20 that's BTS for behind the stage 20 at logify calm for 20% off any yearly or buy yearly plan this offer is valid through October 31st 2026 this year so again even if you have a PMS already it's always good to audit it's always good to go do some shopping around right logify makes it really easy to transfer but go check out logify if you haven't already or if it's been a while since you check them out check them out again use the code BTS 20 at logify calm and worst. Tell someone on the team that Zach from behind the stage sent you there way. I want to I want to ask you about this this story that you share early in the book and it's about a family that you call the Jan Ricks and they they call I think they they call your team they're like constantly complaining or upset about about the experience so far. And yet at the same time like they kept extending their stay and your team as you talk in the book your teams like oh gosh what a nightmare but then like you read the whole situation like totally different right and I want to I want to unpack this story in particular because I think it's it's a good sort of like foundational I think through line that you carry throughout again I play with the first chapter but they carry I assume kind of throughout the tell tell us the story and what was it about this experience that that really stood out to you that you feel like was a cornerstone sort of theme in how you've built about. Yeah so the stories that there was this family that came to stay like right at the beginning of the covid stuff and and they came from Mexico City which is kind of a big deal right then and they had booked for light and I can't remember exactly but it was like they had booked for maybe two weeks or week or something initially and they had just ended up calling us constantly like multiple times a day they were calling complaining about the sound on the washer when the cycle was done was just. It was just a little bit more like the time that the cycle was done was too loud like the mugs were too small the door was squeaking it was like just a million little things that they kept telling us and so my team was feeling like they were like this guest was unhappy and kind of like. The team was sort of assuming that these people were unhappy and maybe we're going to do like a refund request and so they were like nitpicking all these things to kind of set up a refund request and if you're in hospitality. And so when you're in the middle of the weekend, you're going to be like, well, you're going to have a couple of hours of vacation, you know, you know, that's a guess tactic sometimes and so the teams worried plus they're getting that feeling like when someone calls you and they're telling you something is wrong, you know, there's that sort of like in the human response which is like to be defensive. And the guest is complaining and then the guest comes and says they want to extend and so my team is kind of like oh god, I don't know like I'm they're feeling really worried that they're going to get in trouble because there might be a better view or.
refund request and yet the people want to extend. And so to me, it was like, I'm not sure that I knew right off the bat, like what the issue was with this family, but I just knew that maybe there's something else that we're not seeing. And I will admit, I go to a lot of therapy. I'm a huge proponent of therapy. So there is that sort of like trained concept of curiosity for me, because I've just learned to like try to pause when I can and be like, you know, what's the thing behind the thing. And so that was what I was thinking about this person. It was like, maybe this is not about us, like maybe there's some other reason why these complaints are coming. Why don't we just talk to the guest, you know? And at that point, our staff was kind of lower because we had to lay a bunch of people off right at COVID and then we brought them back. And so at this point, I think we were like halfway back. So I am on the call with this guest, along with some people from my team. And you know, we called them to find out like, hey, so you know, we see that you want to extend and we really want to extend your stay because we just had COVID and there were like no reservations for a while. We're so grateful that you're here. But you kind of seem like really unhappy with this property. So are you sure you want to extend at this property? Like are you sure this is the right thing for you because we definitely don't want you unhappy. Like we, this whole team works really hard to make every guest and every homeowner happy and we're worried that you're not happy. And so we're worried to extend because we don't want you here longer, unhappy. And anyway, they ended up telling us like, no, we're happy. We're good. We just thought you would want to know all of these little things at the house so that you guys could fix them. And it was like, great. Like actually, thank you. Because you know, that we run into this a decent amount now and we really learned it from that situation. It's like, okay, when someone's complaining, like number one, this could be good information that we could use to get better. So like number one, try to not be too defensive and take that in so that we could use the information to be better. And then number two, obviously, right, we want to do what we can to make the guests happy. But in this situation with this story, it was just cool because we were able to kind of sit down with this guest, find out what was the issue behind the issue. And really it was like they weren't unhappy. This is their personality type. And so then we kind of set up a plan so that they could like come to us once a day or whatever it was. So it was like a little less of like, you know, machine gun fire on the team constantly. And it was more like organized and like we could expect, okay, by four o'clock, we're going to receive a note from these people. And and so then everybody was happy. And then the guest ended up extending extending. I think they stayed like three months. And then they ended up, they left. They came back and stayed a few times. And then they bought this like amazing property, which we still to this day are, you know, managing their property. And they're they're like an amazing customer. They're someone that I feel like I'm one of the homeowners I'm closest to, along with a lot of people on our team. And so it just took like kind of holding space, creating space for what this person really needed and where they were really coming from and not like pre-judging the situation, not making assumptions, not making assumptions, but just really like being in the moment with them and being ready to understand what they needed and where they were coming from. And then that turned something that like think about it, my team could have told them like, no, sorry, you can't extend it. We have another reservation or something. And like we would have missed out on a very much longer extended stay repeat bookings and an amazing home that's now part of our portfolio. And it really just took everyone on the team that was working on that, taking the opportunity to build a connection with that customer in maybe a harder moment, right? And I think in hospitality, we run into moments like that's so frequently. And it's literally just about practicing to understand the opportunity that's in front of you. And like really the potential that you have in every one of these like interactions that might seem like it would be stressful, like if someone's complaining or something, you know, it might begin from somewhere a little bit stressful, but if you can kind of conceptualize the possibilities around it, that's when you can really turn these issues into amazing opportunities. I absolutely love that story. Actually reminds me when I was traveling, my wife and I I talked about this several times, but we Airbnb hopped for like 18 months. And this is before I knew anything about the industry. So when I say Airbnb hop, we literally just like lived off of the platform along the way I learned about incredible operators like yourself Rachel and whatnot learned about the direct booking movement learned that vacation rentals was like a whole industry like it was incredible experience. But anyways, while we were traveling, there was one time where we had stated this incredible property. And we were driving back through Montana again. And we decided to book the same place. We noticed that like the things just weren't as clean as they had been like the first time, right? And so kind of similar situation, we had reached out to the homeowner or the property vendor whoever it was. And we just said, Hey, like just FYI, right? Love the place, everything's great. Like not sure if there you've got a new cleaner or whatnot, but like just noticed this was very different than when we, you know, we're when we say a month ago. Yeah. And they like immediately called me and they said, Oh my gosh, like, thank you so much for letting me know. They like somebody on their team, like also, like they sent 50 bucks like through their maybe whatever. Which I would try I went to returning the 50 bucks because I was like, no, no, like to your point, I just want to let you know, it turns out they had actually just had a new cleaner start like a week ago before. And they were like so unbelievably thankful because it sounds like they had gotten like maybe like a couple, I don't know, four or five stars or four point five stars on like the cleaning find they were like, Oh, that's interesting. Since like the last time we had been there. And anyways, it was all it was like again, just one example that confirmed your thing where some they were just so unbelievably thankful that we were we tend to be generally nice people. So we, you know, they were just thankful that we had called taking the time to, you know, let us know to let them know rather. And and the fact that they resolved the situation quickly, which is remarkable. They had somebody literally come like that day, a different cleaner and it was just it was so unbelievably great. And I think at the end of the day, like your most guests, especially if you're paying a premium, like you just want to know you just want to be responded to and you wanted to be responded to quickly and thoughtfully and not defensively. Like you don't like I hate when you have when you are talking to anyone in customer service, but especially in hospitality and you feel like as the guest as the customer that you have to be defensive. Right. That's that is such an uncomfortable feeling like to be it, right. And I think it's experiences like the one that you just articulated. That's how to handle these situations. And in so new mindset, exactly. Literally mindset for everyone of all. Yeah. And like when you're when you're the customer, right, the burden shouldn't lie on you to have the right mindset. Like we always say with our customers like with our guests in our home, I was like they should really only have to pay and show up. Like that's it. They shouldn't be having to feel like they have to do anything else. It shouldn't be like any kind of, I don't know, emotional or like intellectual workload. It should just be like the only things they must do in order to stay with the boat is to, you know, book and pay for their stay and then to actually show up. And the rest should be on us. And so I think, but that that does put hospitality team in like a little bit of a harder spot because we still are human beings and we have like natural human reactions. And then to me, that's where concepts like what I put in the book can be interesting. And you know, one of the reasons that when we came up with this framework, the three commitments and the three commitments are show up, make room and build belonging. And when we came up with this, it was sort of like, well, it's just so obvious. Like do we even have to say it? But what it reminded me of is like, I had a situation in my own personal, like that was really stressful. It's sort of dramatic some years ago. And as part of me dealing with that, I remember that I, I, someone recommended a breeding coach to me, like a breathwork coach. And I was like, oh, what? And it was like expensive too, right? So I like called the maiden appointment with this woman. And I was kind of like, am I actually doing this? Like I am very stressed and very busy. And I'm going to spend 90 minutes with a coach on my breathing. Like I breathe all the time. Why do I need to be coached? Anyway. And so I ended up working with this person on an ongoing basis for a while. And it was really, really impactful because she taught me breathing techniques. Initially that were meant to like, you know, slow down your breathing and slow down your heart rate and calm you in moments of anxiety, right? But she also taught me all these other techniques that were really interesting. And all of it was around breathing, which we do autonomically. But, you know, just learning this stuff has made me, like set me up where when I am stressed out and I feel like a panic coming on, I'm automatically all the sudden starting to use box breathing or whatever it is to calm myself in a way that, you know, I never did before I learned that. And to me, that's what the three commitments is, is like, it's just a framework to sort of teach people and to talk about every so often. And it's almost like through discussion around some technique, even if it's something that is a technique around something you might do all the time automatically. If you learn a technique and you kind of practice it a little, all of a sudden you find yourself using that technique without even having to think about it. And when you're talking about having a team who you want to be able to overcome obstacles to, you know, really true,
really like how what is it when you're creating a brand or you're creating experiences that people want to come back where they feel a sense of belonging? It's really about connection. And so how can you have your team kind of more automatically even in difficult moments? How can you set them up to be more readily building connection with all the customers? And that's what we feel like this framework is. And to me, it's like once you think about that, you realize, well, the same thing applies with a team. Like if you're a leader, you're going to be experiencing issues, your team's going to be coming to you, telling you about, you know, scenarios that are problematic, whether it's between two people on the team or between a person on the team and, you know, a customer or whether it has to do with, you know, the desire for promotion and raises and just all the things that come up. And if you remember that you like and you have a little bit of training on this concept of building connections, even in like stressful moments, it works really well with a team too. Because it's like really that's what you're doing with your team is trying to connect, build belonging like, you know, you want to foster relationships where people are going to stay with your business for a long period of time, even through like times when it's not so easy at work every day. And to me, these concepts work really well for that. You talk about the service recovery paradox. I love that. And I love for you to unpack like, what does that mean? Person foremost, and how have you, how have you all applied that in like a practical context? So I didn't even really know the name of that. I mean, guess we were doing it. It's like, that's definitely something inherent to my personality. Like, when, you know, I would always be for so many years, I was like the person on our team, but if things escalated, whether it was with like a home winner guest or someone on the team, we had a team, right? And over time, our team grew. So there was more management layers and more people able to deal with more serious situations. But I was always like, then to the why, right? Like if stuff got really crazy, it'd be like Rachel's going to take it. And, and I had this like inherent, I think it's more of like a winning like a competitive thing where it's like, I wanted, I think this is a hospitality person. I think this is like the hospitality gene that I talk about sometimes. But it was like, I had to make everyone happy. Where like I had to solve. I couldn't like go to bed unless I knew, you know, there was no clouds hanging over us. And so, so the recovery paradox is something that I was like living. I just didn't know the name for it. And we actually had Tim Ferris, who I don't know if you know, that is he's like, really famous author. Yes. And he's he's had more influence on my life than just about anyone else in bite. He's amazing. Right? Like, yes. Well, in like tools of titans. Yes. Yes. He's got like the four hour work week for our body. You know, he's got. My two favorite. It's tools of titans. And then there's another one that's similar where they're just like convolutions of his like learning tidbits from all these people. I'm obsessed with those. But anyway, so he's been a customer of ours. And like repeat. And so I've ended up like had gotten to have a couple conversations with him. And that's because he had an issue. One of the times when he was staying with us in an escalated and I didn't even know that he was staying with us. I didn't like, there was book under some another name. And then that my team had told me something was going on. There was a situation that escalated to me, right? And I ended up speaking to him. And then it was like, oh, my, you guys, this is Tim Ferris. But anyway, he, so through that conversation, when I was working on this book, I shared it with him. And he's the one that he brought up when he first was looking at our book proposal with like the rough concepts. He was like, you have to make sure you're talking about the recovery paradox. He's like, because that's what you're talking about in here. And that's what you guys do so well. And I was like, so all kudos to Tim Ferris because it was him that kind of brought up that terminology, the service recovery paradox. And once I was looking into that, it's like, oh, yeah, that's the perfect way to describe what we were talking about. And, and I love this concept because it's so true in my life. And I know that it's so true. It for anyone in hospitality, whether that's like restaurant, hotel, vacation rental, and also it's so true as a leader, right? Where it's like the concept again is so easy. But see again, if you like think about it a little, if you talk about it with a team, they're going to start doing this without even thinking just because it like sets a pattern in their brain, right? But this concept of when you have an issue, like sure, your, your automatic response might be to be defensive or sort of stressed about it. But if you can like home yourself, right? To me, the service recovery paradox concept takes place. If you're thinking about the three commitments, there's this idea of like show up and like really be present. To me, the service recovery paradox is in that second step, right? To like create space to make room, meaning to sort of stop yourself from automatically thinking of like your rebuttal to what the person your taught, like if you're talking to an angry guest or maybe someone on your team who's like coming to you with an issue, your automatic human brain is going to say, once they're telling you an issue, you're going to be thinking of the solution or like a rebuttal as to like, why it's not your fault, right? Like this is just what we all do. They're sort of like fear and shape, right? That like comes up. And so it's like, okay, fine, that's normal. But then if you can kind of clear that out, like just tell your, you know, you have different parts in your head, tell, like, okay, thank you for like that protective behavior. But just let's give this one second. And if you can kind of make space for whatever this person is coming to you with, um, all of the sudden you begin to see this opportunity where the issue that they're coming to you with is really like the door you can walk through where when your conversation with them about this issue is over, you are most likely going to have a deeper connection with them. And probably they're going to have a sense of belonging with your company, with your team. Um, it's really interesting. It works like a charm. Like it doesn't ever not work. It's literally just how you think about it, which seems so simple. But yeah, and I think I think one of the things that's coolest about the framework or the concept right is like the idea from a business perspective too is that sometimes right managing a mistake well can create a more loyal customer than, then a flawless experience, right? And I think I think what I think what that differentiation probably is is just human connection, meaning like it is. If I have a flawless experience at a boat, right? I'm never going to talk to Rachel, right? I probably, you know, I might not even talk to anyone on your team. I'm right. We want to check in. You know, right? And I just like, you guys check in with me and I just don't respond because I'm having a such a good time, right? Like whatever. And we almost like don't have a chance to, you know, have a chance, right? Exactly. Exactly. Whereas if if I'm complaining about, you know, the washer, beeping or the mugs, you know, whatever it is, right? All of a sudden now I get to hop on the phone with someone on your team. I get the opportunity to meet the person or one of the people behind the brand. Yes. And because I had an issue, I know, and it was resolved. And I liked, you know, Rachel, who I was talking to, all of a sudden, I'm only ever saying with a lecture right? Right? Right. And so, right, it's like you now think about it. Like you, when you think about that place, you kind of think about, oh, well, like I, it's like our guests will feel like they have a guy or a gal in Jackson or Sun Valley or Park City because they've made this connection. And so now they'll be like, Oh, I want to go back and see Blaine or I'm going to go back and see chance again. And you know, someone on our team that they dealt with. And I think that is like, if you boil down when you look at, like all the talk around hospitality lately, and especially for me, it's like because we do luxury, I'm always, you know, looking at a lot of stuff around luxury. And it's like, what is luxury or what is good hospitality? It always, if you follow the conversation through, it always comes back to connection, right? It just does. We've learned this now. In the past, there's been all these ways of describing these things. But now I feel like we've all evolved to a point where we realize, like there's kind of no denying that true, amazing hospitality experiences, true luxury, is always centered around this point of connection, this sense of belonging. And it's like, okay, so then the concept is sort of, how do I create that on purpose? Right? How do I create that even if there are points of friction, which when you're in talking about travel, I think the goal of having no friction is silly goal, because it's impossible. So there's going to be some friction. And so now what do we do knowing that there will be some friction and that our goal is connection and belonging. And it's like, well, actually the problem is, as all the stoics say, like the problem is the way, right? Like that issue is the reason that you're going to end up having a chance to talk to this person, whether it's someone on your team or whether it's a customer, that really is your opportunity that's presented. And so if you can just reframe that for yourself and for your team, like all of a sudden, there's just so much more opportunity to further the business that you have, to have better results, to have longer term employees. And like, it's kind of so simple, but just like breathing, you know, it's amazing the shift. Like if you're someone who has anxiety and you've had a panic attack, it's crazy to see what certain breathing techniques can do to take you from being somewhere where you feel like you can't breathe and you might die to somewhere where you're totally calm and clear. And I think it's the same with building relationships. It's like there can be all of this chaos and fear around issues that come up in your business with your team or with your customers. But if you just use some simple techniques, it's like you can literally flip the script and end up in this place where you're
actually building amazing relationships that are the secret sauce for success. It's crazy. A couple of things come to mind as you share that one is around. I read this post on, I think it was LinkedIn this morning, about a founder who I really respect in a totally different industry. And he was talking about how shocked he is that everyone's out basically outsourcing customer service, customer success to AI. And his point was like, it's the first thing that everyone outsources because it's the thing that most people want to spend the least amount of time doing. It's annoying, right? It's frustrating. You don't like it. And what's insane to me is that's the biggest opportunity to grow your portfolio to grow your respective trust with that kind of person. >> Because I want to-- >> His name's Tyler Dank. I'll send you the post after. He's the founder of Beehive, which is this newsletter platform, which has grown-- >> Okay. >> --dangely. And he's a great dude. >> I totally agree with that. >> Anyways, but when I saw his post, I was like, this is so money. And then it's like the second thing I thought was like, when I, what I love about having united status, right? Yes, the perks are fun. Like, yes, checking in. But you know what I really love? I love when there's any issue with any, because of course it's going to be issues with flights. That just happens. I call my premier number. >> Exactly. >> And then immediately on the second dial, an actual human answers the phone, right? >> Preaching the choir. >> Yes. >> And that same. >> And I am an AI optimist. I'm incredibly tech forward. Like, this is nothing about the technology. It's just in this particular context, like where it's nuanced and it's complicated. Like, I want to talk to a person and I feel valued as a status holder when a human picks up. And to contrast that, my wife doesn't have status. And she was actually with the different airline last week. And my wife's got totally derailed. She couldn't talk to, like she couldn't get on the phone with a live person. Three hours, it was insane. >> And she's like, I will never not fly night again. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> And I'm saying with Delta, like life changing. >> It's life changing. And I think it's so interesting, right? Because yes, it's hard to deal with angry people. Yes, it's difficult to be that calm, stable person. If people get cussed out, being in hospital, they suck, you know, when you have angry guests, I get all those things. And yet it is the single biggest leverage point to turning that person around, right? To making them a lifelong loyal fan. And even if they're not, right? >> Right. >> You might be like the only decent human that they encounter that day, that week, maybe ever. And I think there was something so, like, convicting to me about that post and just kind of thing you do. >> Absolutely. >> Travel experiences. And I think that's what you're getting at, right? In a lot of times. >> Yeah, just like my religion lately is like, I used to always say that Breezeway, that Breeze, that tool that software for vacationals, that on my team, Breezeway is our religion. And I would say like my new favorite thing is that, like, I'm always talking about, you know, that connection, or like the recovery paradox, that is the religion right now. Because it's like, you know, when you think about something a lot, it's like all the sudden you see it everywhere. And I totally agree, like, if I have one more person approach me at a conference or just on LinkedIn or whatever, about like, hey, I have this AI tool that's going to do guest messaging, can I talk to you about it? I am always like, hey, guess what? Like you and everyone else. So how about number one? How about some creativity? Like, let's think of ideas on how to use AI in ways that have not already been done in 50 different ways, right? Okay, and number two, to me, it's like, there's so much we could be doing with AI. And if you think about like my industry vacation run-als, it's like, let's talk about CRM. There's like barely any CRM available in this entire industry. And AI, I'm pretty sure I'm not that great with AI, but I have a feeling that AI would be really good at that. And so like, let's point all of that, those people that are just saying the same thing in Marching in Unison, like, hey, go look at CRM. Because like you said, my guest interactions, like I understand that those interactions are the doorway through which my team is going to walk through and create amazing belonging and connection with our customers. And so I don't want to outsource that, right? Like, I don't, I want to leave those opportunities all on the table so that we can utilize them to the best of our ability. And so to me, that's like not the place in my business for AI, or at least not the bulk of what we're going to do with AI. So I totally agree. Like, I think it's interesting what people have done so far in terms of messaging with AI, but I feel like cool. I mean, so let's look other places too. So I would love to see that post for sure. - I'll send that to you. A couple of final questions for you. One is around you, there's this theme to you about presence, right? And I think at the end of the day, everything that we've been talking about, right, requires an investment of your time as a leader. And it's incredibly difficult to justify, you know, where you spend your time anywhere, right? And so I want to get you, you're clearly a dynamic leader, right? You've built a team, you've built one of the most successful portfolios in the industry. But I guess I want to hear, how do you think about like the relevance of presence today as a leader? What does that look like? Like, are there a couple of practices that you work into your daily routine, your weekly routine? How do you ensure that you're actually, again, not just physically there, right? But mentally present to your team. How do you do that well? So, OK, this part of the three commitments is something that's more natural to me. And I would say, I don't know what kind of brain I have. And I've never been tested for any sort of stuff. But I would say I've found as I'm getting older, and I'm less than two years away from 50. So it's been almost, you know, it's been almost 50 years. I've been on the planet learning all the lessons. And so I've definitely over the last few years really been able to recognize that, however this brain works, I tend to lock in on conversations and lose track of time. Like, I do this all day, every day. I am always late to meetings, because if I'm in one meeting and I'm in a conversation, I will notoriously be like, OK, I have five more minutes in my head. I'm thinking that, and I will talk for 30 more minutes with this person. And I will then be, you know, 25 minutes late for the next meeting that I had, but I will be shocked by that fact. When I then look and see that I'm 25 minutes longer than I realized, it doesn't feel like it to me at all. And so because I can't really feel time passing and because my nature is to sort of lock in, this presence concept is something that is natural to me. But we did realize when I was talking with Lydia and Hart from Tandemey and we were working on this book concept, it's like, we realized how important this presence piece is. So for some people, like for me, it sort of just happens. It's like, I get in a conversation and all of a sudden, the world disappears and I'm just like in it with this person. And I almost have to be like dragged out, which could be a problem, honestly. But the upside of it is that I do end up having an easier time connecting with people, because I really am present, right? Like for whatever reason, the way I work, my brain just kind of, everything else goes away and I'm just there. And I think that's what part of what, you know, why we wanted to have that show up, you know, that presence component of the three commitments be there. Because we realized like this works really well. So if you can be engaged with someone, especially if they're experiencing some issue that they're complaining about or someone on the team that's fraught with like some drama that's happening, it never feels the same when you're going to go and sort of convey an issue as a customer or a team member. And you feel like the person you're talking to is like, "Uh-huh." Right, yes. It's like it does not, you're not going to connect. You know, like you might have a chance to vent, but like venting alone is not going to solve this, right? Like it is about, if you're the one, you know, there to receive this commentary about an issue, to really be able to be present. And so again, this is not like super impossible. It doesn't take like doing hard math equations. It's literally just like a mindset of being able to sort of be like, "Okay, I'm clearing it out. I'm not going to be typing while I'm talking." Like, "I'm going to lean in. I am going to like clear my mind and like really hear what this person is saying to me." So I think that one, that part of it came from a part of how I really am almost to a detriment, but that I, you know, I think linear and heart realized like this is a way that Rachel, you know, that you connect with people and we should, you know, bring this up as part of what we're doing because it's really important and maybe not everyone finds that so easy. So just to talk about it sometimes is what can help other people kind of be reminding themselves. Okay, wait, yeah, just like let me just actually be present in this moment. Yeah. Yeah. It's like easy again, but it's just needs some practice. But I think at least I've found it's increasingly hard to find people that are good at it. And I think a lot of it is just our attention spans are just not what they were, right? Actually, there's so many distractions. And yet there's nothing like whether it's a friend, whether it's boss, right? Whether it's a colleague, there's nothing like finding yourself sitting in a space with somebody who you feel like you both mutually have each other's like full attention. Yeah. I really wish it wasn't so rare, but I think it is quite rare.
Again, there's this difference, right? As they say, between like listening and hearing or being listened to and being heard. And I think that there's nothing more magical and potentially, you know, the source of an unlock, whether it be a creative unlock, whether it be a directional unlock, whether it be sort of a resolution unlock. There's nothing that unlocks people more than being genuinely heard. And I do think that is the sign of every good leader I've ever had the privilege of working with or collaborating with has understood how to listen and how to help people feel heard in a way that didn't feel like they were being stressed out in the process, which is also really hard, right? Like, you can't, even if you're stressed out or frustrated or annoyed by what the individual is saying, you can't physically like show that or a moat that. Otherwise, you immediately break that presence and you break that trust, right? Right. So it's a nuanced skill, but I think the best leaders in the world, they figured it out. And some of it, I'm sure, is like you, it comes naturally. And others, there are practices that I'm sure you still have to kind of remind yourself and work through and learn. And remember, right, depending on the conversation you had previous, but I think that is a supernatural unlock to growing anything, to being anyone, to imagining anything is. It is how well you can listen. It's literally like, and this isn't really in the book as much, but to me, it's like, when you can't be present, it's sometimes this kind of like comes back to fear. Like, maybe you're sort of afraid to let go of the other things that you've got going in your mind and if you don't think about it for a little bit, like something bad will happen, you'll forget forever or you won't be able to get. And so like, you're always, to me, it feels like fear holds people back from just like letting themselves truly be present, especially in situations that are uncomfortable. And it's like, for me, as I've gotten older and I have more confidence in what I'm doing, I have less fear, right, just because inherently, like I've been here longer and so, like I've made so many mistakes that it's kind of like, I'm not gonna die, it'll be fine. But I think it's like, when you're able to have a little more confidence and be acting less frequently from fear, it seems like you're kind of more, you have an easier time, really being present because you're not, like, you know, you're kind of like, it's fine. It's okay if I like commit and dive into this conversation right now, like everything around me will not fall. Like I can just let all that go for a second and be here. And to me, it's like, that is another like secret sauce thing to like more exponential success, right? Because it's almost like you're making baby steps in all these different directions when you can't really be present. And when you can be present in the meetings and conversations that you're having, the steps forward that you are able to take in a million different ways are so much bigger. And it's like by holding yourself back, you're just giving yourself room to like make little nips and movement, but when you can really like fully be present, commit, like hold space for what's happening, you can make huge leaps forward. Sure, you can make huge leaps forward like in the connections and the relationships that you're building, whether it's with your customers or your team, but also like if you want to do, some kind of new project or deal and all the sudden like that becomes so much more possible when you're really just, you know, in those conversations in a different way than you might have been able to be before you kind of thought through these concepts. - So well said, so well said. Well Rachel, where do we get? Please do deserve, which by the way, like amazing title. Like I love a good title. When I first saw your title, I think it was maybe on a LinkedIn post he did a while ago or whatever, I thought that's genius again. Please do deserve, not do not deserve. - Yes, wait till I have to tell you. - Wow. - And like, yes. - Totally him. And I don't know if he wants me telling everyone like these conversations, but I'm sure it's okay, right? But anyway, so he was the one that said, you've got to call out recovery paradox and you've got to say please do deserve. And I was like, you're totally right, like it sounds better and it does, right? Doesn't it sound better than please deserve? Like please do deserve. It makes a point more clearly. - Yeah, I mean, it also, it's just, I mean, it's a nod to hospitality, right? It's nod to the sign that you're like, yeah, it fits beautifully in so many ways. I, well, that makes sense. Not that you wouldn't have come up with a great title, but you've got the world's greatest copywriter, right? Helping you with the title. That's amazing. Okay, so give us the skinny, when can we pre-order his live now? So I'll have a link in the comments. - I feel like everywhere. - Yeah, like Amazon or booksellers.com or Barnes it like you name it. You know, it officially comes out. Through a publisher like it's everywhere. It comes out November 10th officially. Yes. - Yeah. - Wonderful. - It's kind of exciting. - Well, we will have that link to pre-order across Amazon Barnes and Noble in the show notes below folks. Also, if you are not already following Rachel across like Dan, I'll make sure I'll link her, social handles in the show notes as well. Rachel, thank you for the work. Thanks to you and the team for putting this resource together. I'm sure people will benefit from it greatly. I can't wait to read it. And everyone go pre-order. Go buy the book. It's gonna be great. But thank you so much for your time, Rachel. - Yeah, thank you. (upbeat music) - Hey friends, thanks for joining us for this episode behind the stays. I'd love to know what you thought of the episode. Feel free to shoot me a DM on Instagram @behindthestays or send me an email at
[email protected]. If this is your first time tuning in, it's a pleasure to have you and we hope to have you back again soon. But if you've been a listener for a while, I'd greatly appreciate if you subscribed to the show, if you aren't already, and then leave us a rating and review of the show wherever you're streaming this podcast. Oh, and if you know a hotelier or a hospitality entrepreneur that's building something new and novel, I invite you to introduce them to me so that my team and I can discuss bringing them on to the show. Again, you can just shoot me an email at
[email protected] or a DM on Instagram. Behind the stays is brought to you by Journey a next-generation loyalty program built for the modern traveler. We're looking to onboard new boutique hotels, unique stays in the top vacation rental management companies onto our platform every day. If you're a hospitality entrepreneur who has a stay or a collection of stays with Seoul, we'd love for you to apply to join our alliance at journey.com/aliance. Again, that's journey.com/aliance. Thanks for being here y'all. We will see you next time. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)
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