Why Taste Matters More Than Ever in the Age of AI, with Aporva Baxi

[Music] Welcome back to the Caterfeeing podcast. Super enjoying this season. I've got some brilliant people lined up and today's guest is someone I've been wanting to get on the show for quite some time. A poor verbaxi is co-founder of Dixon Baxi, one of the most respected branding agencies out there. And if you've ever admired bold, distinctive work that feels like it's actually got something to say, chances are you've come across them. I actually went down to their London studio just people Christmas for a proper tour. We put something together for Creative Booms YouTube. If you haven't watched it, go check it out. It's brilliant. And at one point we ended up having a full-on console off comparing all the video games we grew up with. So yes, this is kind of a continuation of that experience. But what really stayed with me wasn't just the nostalgia. It was the thinking and the curiosity and that constant push to evolve, something that a poor verb and Simon very much share in common. So in this episode we're talking about where things are heading, AI of course and the pace of change. And this idea that keeps coming up again and again no matter who I talk to, that taste might be the thing that really sets us apart right now. It's a big one, but it's also a really optimistic conversation. So if you've been feeling a bit unsure about where you fit into all of this, this might just give you a bit of a boost. This episode is brought to you by Adobe, headline sponsor of the first Bionic Awards, which took place earlier this month and are the first awards of their kind in the Creative AI space. The aim was to celebrate human creativity in the age of AI, not tools for their own sake, but what brilliant people are actually making with them. A Adobe's support of that feels very right to us and we'll be hearing from co-founder Alex Pell later in the episode. More on Adobe at the link in the show notes. It is so nice to see you again. I know we're over the web this time and not in person, but how are you, Pawe? Yeah, no, great to see you. I'm very good actually. It was amazing having you and Jack at the studio. That was amazing to spend some time and show you around. So this feels like a great follow on. Do you know we had some great feedback on that vlog? So many comments and private emails and LinkedIn messages, just all thanking us for putting that out there because obviously your studio, your agency is very, very popular. It was very kind. I think you opened that with some very kind words, but it was a real pleasure kind of taking you around the studio and I love the fact that you spent some quality time with us. It wasn't just like 30 minutes and here's the tour. I think you took the time as you always do to get inside how we do things and it was really great. You met some of the team. I think that was really important to just get a flavor for it. It's fantastic to see the views and how it's resonated and I guess it just proves that people want to see what happens inside studios, how they really work and that isn't all the straight line. It's very creative boom. It's lifting the lid of the mysterious. Yeah, I think you do that very well. In the articles, especially the follow on articles and I particularly like that. The idea that you spend time getting to the root of the idea or why something happens and I think we're very good at showing the surface that finished product and everyone can get behind it or not or have criticism of it. Oftentimes it's the journey and the behind the scenes that seem to have the biggest richness and the more interesting stories. Yeah, but forgive me. My favourite bit of that whole tour is when you and I had a console off and we were back out. I remember that. I did see a comment around that and we have to talk about that more. Maybe it's not for this discussion, but I love the fact that you've had all the consoles and you've got very excited about that. I didn't expect it. Anyone that I find that's into that, I'm an instant friend and I love that moment. Well, maybe we'll talk about that on the spark, which is the episode later in the week. Yeah, I love to ask you a few silly questions and all that. You've got a game boy behind you. It is a game boy. It's a well sponsored one. Is that an original game boy? Well done. Yeah, great. Yeah, and I've got a few little games here as well. Come on, we've got to do this some way. Yeah, cute little. Oh fantastic. Classic. I love that. It's so much my style, yeah. Tetris. Got Tetris. And what about you know, I completely forgot what's in here and I have to make a confession. This isn't mine. This is my husband's. I was like, I'm having that because I wasn't allowed it when I was a kid. My parents were like, no, you've got the the Atari ST and that's it. Can't see what that is. That's not bad. You know what, I have gone back in time and bought the things that I wanted when I was a kid. You know, whether it was a game in watch or a particular console. But I love that. I think, you know, those things are vintage technology, but they draw line in time. They're kind of the precursor to the things that we have today. So I think they're their design icons in their own way. Yeah, I think we're we're similar age. So it's it's going to be quite an interesting discussion this episode because we're going to be talking about technology, of course. It's what everybody's talking about. AI, how it's changing design. And the theme that we're going to be chatting about is taste being the new moat. Yes, it was something you were keen to chat about. And we were something we sort of brushed upon when I was at Dix and Baxi before Christmas. Yeah, I think it's it's a really interesting one. We live in this incredible moment, you know, and and for good or some folks obviously think that there's some challenges to that. And I think there are, but it's incredible time and arguably we're in this tipping point of a revolution of things changing dramatically, which can feel scary, but also exciting because it's full of potential and possibility. And you know, it means that you have to lean into it, I think, and and find a way through it. But to your point about taste, there's, you know, an incredible amount of platforms and products and tools, design tools, AI tools, you know, tools for every aspect of life, you know, whether that's, you know, an intelligence that sorts your email out or your calendar or, you know, Figma has, you know, AI baked in and Canva and so on. But I think there's there's a challenge with that. Two things happen. One is that in a really good way democratizes design even more, you know, the idea of creativity is in the hands of so many more people, you know, on all these platforms. And maybe you just need your phone to do a lot of things. And so arguably it's raising the ground you know, everyone's kind of moving up. There's a shift in potential quality. I think I certainly see that. But however, you know, there is a ceiling and the thing that happens and I think this is the question around taste is that there is a danger that the products themselves start to dictate how we do things. Right. So we start adapting to the platform and what the platform gives us. And it's happened through time, you know, with a successive technology, you know, you start using Photoshop first first time, you know, you use those filters and it creates a thing. But I think there's going to be a need for a paradigm shift where if everyone's got the tools, is it taste or is it craft or is it that idiosyncratic weird wonky point of view that you have that makes it different? And I find that interesting because then it pushes us to go after that. You know, that's a really interesting moat to cross. I think it could be scary because we can get to in a lot of ways even with kind of the mockups that we use. Anything can look great. I think to our point earlier, it's the thinking and the feeling that you derive from the work that's important. But I think with these platforms, the challenge is that it's so seductive, you know, to use chatGPT or Claude or any of those things, you know, figment tools to erase things or to create a module or to with Claude code, you know, create an entire website and have it debug things and so on. So I think all that is amazing. It's where we go to once we have those tools, you know, what music can we play, what things can we create. So, yeah, that really interests me. And I think for the whole industry, it's this moment, this tipping point where we rush into it and up it and over it, somehow and figure out what that new version of what we do is. And I think it roots back to based in what we already have. It's making the decision to stop doing something, to delete something, to know when to stop, to shoot to make the right decision. So if you've got millions of options, which one is the one that is the one that counts? Yeah, it's true. That's the differentiator, isn't it? It's the nice thing is that we've all got access to these tools. So we're all learning. And we none of us know quite yet where they're going to go. I don't think even the people that are making them quite know what's going to happen next. So it's a very frightening, exciting time. and we're just sort of going along with it, you know, but I think you're - Right, there comes a point where you start to look at things for the creative output from various studios and agencies and designers and you start to say, hang on a minute. What is that like? Is that AI? And is that, you know, you don't quite know there's a sort of broken trust, I think, consumer point of view. I guess what am I looking at? Even on Instagram, is this real? - Yeah, sure. - And that is another aspect I think will save the day. - Yeah, I think we kind of, you know, think about AI and how we use it ethically in the right way to do certain things too. Yeah, the way, I think we think about it and probably many is that, you know, you have an idea and it helps you manifest that as opposed to, I don't have an idea, you know, what should I do? It's the same as looking for influence for mood boards and so on, you can go in search of something, but I think it's better to generate something and then find things to help you illustrate that idea. So there is a difference there, but we are stepping to environment where it's going to be a utility. It's like running water where we're gonna be in an AI native environment. And that is arguably democratizing the superpower that everyone has, but it's how we use it. And as you say, there's challenges with what is real, what isn't, what has value. Like it as an example, I went to Japan House in Kensington this last week and it was 100 plus ceramics from Japan and they're all making these just the most amazing beautifully crafted cups and plates, some out of glass, some out of clay. Each was different, so each had a different style and they approached it somewhat beautifully crafted and perfect, others were a patchwork quilt of textures. And that's really inspiring because there's such great value in the making of something. And I think if everyone has the tools, like they have, they have all the tools in front of them that all making different individual things that have an idea, a personality, a sense of a truth, a point of view. And that's a great example for where we need to get back to, we have all these things, so how do we get that? And the same thing I went to a design museum on Sunday, I'm going to a few things as January, it's that time of year where you pack in the things but I went to the Wes Anderson archives, I don't know if you've been to that. Again, stunning because what I take from that, apart from the amazing amount of work that it goes into making those things, is that there's a worldview and that worldview uses all sorts of things and collaborates with super talented people to make something extremely unique. So I think the power is going to be that is, in the world of brands, that's what we try and do. But with the tools and the technology that we have, there's a danger and I think we see it anyway of a flattening of design, you know. So I'm interested in the elbows coming out and the spiky bit. And that's what we try and do, we released out a book remix which you saw. That's one way for us to test expression. You know, it's almost like a spontaneous, misbehaved chaotic, that is energetic, an immersive kind of expression of what we do. And that's just a way to test the unruly part of creativity. And I think that there's real excitement and opportunity there for everyone really. Yeah, when you say flattened, what do you mean by that? Everything just starts to look the same. Yeah, I think a little bit of that, you know. I'm amazed at how beautiful or crafted things can look with the tools that we have. I don't take anything away from any creative here. I think we use the same similar tools. It's just that there's a danger that a couple of things happen, one, we're in a world and we have been for it for some time where everyone sees everything immediately. You know, it's out, it has a perfect sheen to it. There are mechanics, motion theories, you know, the way brands should appear. There is a playbook for that, you know. And there's recipes to get to a certain level. Because we see everything, it's very easy to be influenced by those things. And you go, wow, that's cool. Let's do that. Well, that's cool. Let's do that. Whether it's trends or a style or, you know, someone did something really original and before you know it, there's lots of me two versions of that. But I think we're fighting against that. There isn't maybe enough time, maybe this pre-internet and showing the age for things to germinate long enough that they have a real sort of weight behind them. You know, I grew up in a time where I was flicking through books by Vaughan Oliver. You know, it was just very artistic and painterly and it just so tactile thinking about that today with some of the questions that you were asking. And those things germinate and they have a real strong point of view. Now, I think, you know, I go and search for those things. I'm also amazed, I've got to say, by how much amazing creativity there is in the world. You know, you jump on to create a boom. You go into any platform and like, the mind is blown with the level of craft and quality. So I think there's no shortage of that. It's just where we point it. And I guess back to your question, the flattening is that there's a danger that everything starts to modernize because either clients and brands like something and want that, we find that. You know, your portfolio suddenly becomes a playbook that others want to have. Yeah. Or we see stuff that is cool and we want to try and emulate that. And there's nothing wrong with it, but you have to surpass that and find your own voice. Though, and I think with the tools that we have, the platforms that we have, it exacerbates that. Because as I said, it kind of creates the opportunity to create very similar things. Yeah, it already builds on, doesn't it? It builds on what builds already there. It's like, it's human nature to sort of stick with what you feel comfortable with and play it safe. You know, it's like if you go to Japan, if you go to Shibuya and look around on a sort of, you know, work evening. And you just, all of the women pretty much are wearing those burberry max. Or they certainly were when I went 10 years ago. Because you play it safe, you know, you can't be bothered to like think about what to put on. And then what was the name of that photographer who basically took pictures of lots of different people wearing exactly the same outfits and then put them together on the website. And you just suddenly can't remember his name. Yeah, I know. I think we're all geared towards that. But also, you know, our industry particularly is geared to try and find the original or the distinct, the different. And I think it's definitely there. You know, you look at the vast, bells of photography or illustration or those types of things. But because there's so much, and certainly a certain level, brands and in sectors can start to look alike, right? So when someone breaks out of that, it's, it doesn't last for long, you know. So I think you have to keep inventing and keep making stuff and keep holding onto that weird part and keep the idiosyncrasy, which is where the exciting stuff happens. And it's done through, I think all of this, you know, there's this scary part to AI. And you could, you could go into the existential crisis aspect of it. But there's also, I think, a positivity. It does require dumb change, you know. Certainly for parts of the industry. And that is scary. But I think if you embrace it as a collaborator, then maybe that takes us somewhere interesting and new. Yeah, 100%. We had a photographer and writer Liz Sebrick write an interesting piece for Creative Boom this week and it was about, you know, AI not being the problem, lack of nuance is. Lots of creative is very quick to dismiss it for various reasons. But she's saying, well, actually, you know, these tools are going to be woven in to our workflow, whether we like it or not, you know, they're just there. It's that is big revolution that's happening. And, you know, talking about like the lure of being able to remove a fault, you know, photograph that previously would have taken three hours, you know, there's surely something good in that. I think, you know, we talk about a kind of, if there's a triangle, you know, the bottom is the stuff that probably no one wants to do, the commoditized stuff. Yeah. That is easy to replicate. And maybe that's OK because the most valuable thing we have is time. So if we can save time by not doing that, then we kind of bump up a level. And, you know, when you go off a level, you start getting into systems of design and so on. And I think there are platforms that will be able to create those with a prompt, you know, I'm starting a wellness business, you know, any day, identity like this, giving the tools. and the modules. I think that will happen, you know, shortly, whether it's Canberra, Figma, or something like that. But they're, that's like an almost a templated world. But then it means that we can move upwards into systems that scale that become harder to replicate. And I think it's really interesting when you kind of move upstream, you get into a couple of things. One is that businesses inside a messy and need a lot more than pure design to change, you know, requires a belief in something. It requires advocacy from people and clients and stakeholders in that business. So there's a lot of kind of soft components to building, you know, some of the things that we do, which is kind of design and brand systems at scale. And I always think that's not necessarily going to go away, you know, just because you have an instant answer doesn't mean it's the right one. And you know, you can't necessarily present a complete brand and have everyone buy it because you have to take everyone on a journey. But then if you go above that, there's this kind of thought space or strategic space where, you know, these original ideas can bloom. And that's an interesting space to be. And if you're at the top of the triangle, I always like flipping it and saying, well, it opens out again. So you kind of have this transcendent, like levels where it's going to push everyone up to either be more original, be more idea of sync graphic, be more, you know, there's going to be a premium on craft and handmade maybe. And then, you know, what happens next is going to be really interesting. Yeah, it was like the introduction of flatpack furniture, wasn't it? You know, whilst that's popular, you're still always going to get a demand, a market for something that's handcrafted and made, be displayed by somebody that has, you know, decades of experience. I think for me, with creative being, it's always been a bit of a kind of struggle because on the one hand, I love that this technology is opening up the world to so many creators and making it easier more than ever before to run a business or scale up, as you say. But on the other hand, it is changing careers and jobs and causing a lot of disruption and it's not even, it's only really just getting started. So it's having that kind of balance. Don't want to discount that. I think that's an absolute reality. And it's certainly shaping some of our decisions about how we approach things. What we want to do next, you know, what is, what is the shape of, you know, our industry? If these systems can be made, you know, if you need less people to do them internally inside a business, a creative team goes from, you know, X amount to a much smaller amount, that there's a real world impact about. But I think as in any revolution, you know, the world changes with it. So, you know, if you macro out, I think you can look at it quite positively and that there is this kind of very exciting, if a little bit unknown, you know, kind of world that we're stepping into. But yeah, if you come down to an individual or a group of individuals, I think, you know, it makes people unsure and that's not a great place to be. So I think the way we see it is, what can we control? What are the things that we can do that we can make to do our way on our terms? And that is right, we're going to seize this moment to reinvent ourselves. We're going to seize this moment to make stuff. We're going to, like reinvent our recipes. We're going to question stuff that maybe we haven't because we don't want to settle. I think if we do that, is with anything, taking and having control and earning that back and taking it back for yourself is a critical part of this. So you can talk about the fear factor. But I think with anything in life, if you say, well, what can I do? I think that's, that gives you a superpower. And that's how we see it, that's what we want to do. You know, what exciting things can we do because of this? How's it going to evolve and change the company so that we may not be the same as we were? You know, we see Diximaxi as an idea. And we've got lots of ideas. It's a space for creativity at the moment. You know, we focus on these brands at scale. It doesn't just have to be that. And I think there's just so much opportunity to take those choices and in the way that we work with our clients, we explore different futures. And because they're in a room, you don't have to do them. But you can have fun going, well, what about this? How about that? And I think, you know, if there was something I'd share with folks is to, is to try that, is to create different futures and see how, in which one fits, which one's exciting. Even if you don't do them, it gives you an element of optionality, which is very empowering. Today's episode is sponsored by Adobe, headline sponsor of the Bionic Awards. Here's what co-founder Alex Pell had to say about the entries and winners following its inaugural year. We acknowledge that AI isn't necessarily for every creative professional. But what we're saying, a Bionic Award is for the people who do want to experiment with these tools, who do recognize that times are changing and who do maybe want to see themselves moving into a different career trajectory, to be able to experiment with film or animation that they may not have necessarily done before. Though what we want to do is to give them these opportunities, to be able to let people bring that sense of craft and intentionality in their storytelling into a different era, into a different type of workflow, and to be able to, more than anything, be recognized for their incredible skills and to bring them physically together, to be able to meet like-minded people, to be able to showcase their array of talent, and more than anything, to be able to find opportunities to work and to be able to continue to feed their families. And that is ultimately what Bionic Awards is about. The thing I love about all this technology is just how much it's making us pull our socks up. It's the, for me, running a business. The thing I find the most exciting is, okay, what's next? What's next? How do I keep improving? So for me, this is just speeding that up. Only this time I've got a little assistant in my home office who's helping me through this process. You know, I'm using these tools to level up, and it's just, it's brilliant, you know? I couldn't have survived my back injury if it hadn't been for chat GPT. Helping guide me through that nightmare, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I've embraced it. I think it's brilliant. Yeah, I think so. And if you use it in the right way, it will do. And look, I'm a fan of science fiction. And I think that this sort of stuff is science fiction that's science fact now. You know, whether you read something like Neil students in Diamond age or whatever it is like. The right librarian or, you know, he kind of wrote about an iPad form that is an assistant that helps the protagonist, you know, grow up. I think these things have been present in in that sphere. And so we're stepping into that world. And I guess a lot of the folks that are behind a lot of this technology are using science fiction as a means to imagine what's next. So, you know, you can you can imagine different futures. And I really hope that there's a positive optimistic version that we can step into or invent ourselves and take the lead and create. Because, you know, we do do something that is, I think, an amazing thing to be able to do is have nothing and create something, you know, that's kind of a really exciting place to be. So, you know, I definitely go after that. You mentioned sci-fi. Have you read Red Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson? God, you've probably picked the one book that I haven't read. Well, it's kind of a perfect metaphor for what we're talking about. So, it's about we go to Mars, right? And there are different people from all over Earth, all over the planet who are there in this kind of dome on Mars. And they've created their own little kind of areas of the city. And they've all got different ideas about how Mars should develop. Some people are really into the idea of terraforming and turning it into a livable, breathable planet and they've got the technology to do that. Other people want to keep it really raw and not touch it and keep it as red Mars. And it's just such a brilliant book. It really is. But it just reminds me of the time we're in, you know, everybody's got a different idea about how things should evolve. It's just fascinating. I'm reading, I'm lapping up as much as I can. There's blog posts and podcasts and. Yeah, it's fascinating. I've read a whole bunch of books, you know, for the last few years, if not more on this, there's one called Hello World, which probably like five or six years old now, but it took a view on different industries and how AI would impact support or not support, you know, whether that's health or finance or insurance or design or so on. I found that fascinating. And then you've got things like, I think maybe some of these, you know, they get out of date very quickly, but there's a book called Life 3.0. I check or max tag mark, I think, you know, some moments in the comments will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's right. But it was really interesting. He takes this from Life 1.0. Oh, you know, I guess pre-life to where we are now to a future. And what's really interesting at the end of the book, he articulates a number of AI futures, you know, whether that's the dystopian one, to the democratic one, to the liberated one. And their thought experiments, essentially. But we were in a moment where, you know, we hopefully get to choose that and figure that out. And hopefully that is not in our control. Unfortunately, so, you know, we hope that the right people do the right things. Yeah, unless, you know, there's such a thing as super, super intelligence and they just decide that we're the problem. Right. There is that. I mean, that's where it gets kind of interesting is what that is. And, you know, if you take it to that point, then those books do articulate AI that has a point of view. You know, is it a, you know, sort of a democratic, is it invisible, is it kind of a dictator AI, whatever that is, you know, and then you can get into the really fun stuff or really dark stuff. It depends where you want to go with that. But, you know, I guess they're the bigger macro things that we're dealing with, you know, that the world is in a slightly, we're not even as slightly, but it's in the turbulent place. And those things do have an effect on, you know, our community and the industry and how that works, you know, where money is spent and why, what people are focusing on. So, you know, we can do our best creating the work that we do, but there are factors that are turbulent that buffer us that are, as I said, not in our control. So we have to go back to what we can do. And when you think of those different features, are you an optimist? Yeah, always. I like to think so. I think, you know, we, you know, run this business with positive in optimism, I think. That's the way, so many things happen when you do that, you know, it's from the way that you project yourself, I think, you know, it changes the energy in the team. I was talking to Libby, I don't know if you met her. She's one of our creative directors. And she's kind of on that arc now, right? Where she's figuring out what that role is, you know, how to be in that role. And we were just talking about a big project that just wrapped. And I was saying how complex the project was, but how boy and everyone was throughout the project. And in midway, actually, we had a moment where there was a complete right turn, a pivot on what that outcome would be. And everyone was really mature about it, you know, and they dove back in with positivity and the client felt it. And Libby particularly talked about understanding that she is an anchor for that. She carries a has to carry an energy. And if she projects that optimism, not blind optimism, but, you know, kind of grounded, then it does wonders to the team. It feels more of a collective. And we're lucky to have really great genuine people, but it makes a difference. So I would say 100% are positive future. And, you know, I think by doing that, it has a ripple effect that you can or cannot feel. You know, if you go into a store, I'm always like, you know, they go, how are you? And I go, hey, how are you? And it's amazing how it changes. Everyone's like, you asked me a question. You're interested in it. You're joining me like a human. I know. It seems so obvious, but I've got into so many really interesting conversations by doing that, whether that's in a store or a restaurant. I also carry a camera with me, a Fuji X100 or a Liker. And then moments where they spark conversations. So I love those impromptu things where you learn something. You see the world from a different point of view. And if you give optimism, it's, I think, often time return. So this sort of energy movement is a really powerful thing. I've had that, or they take one look at your fit and think, yeah, he's got money. That's been nice to him. [LAUGHTER] Maybe, I don't know. But I think it's-- I think it's-- Well, that's part of it, isn't it? It's how you carry yourself and predict yourself. All of those things matter. So whether that's in a piece of work, putting yourself in your emotion, your passion, and the work, I think people feel that. I think they feel something. They may not know. You did it. They may not know. It's even a piece of design that someone was behind. But there is a care and a craft that I think goes into work, and it pops. That's really amazing. And that goes back to the taste or the flattening is that you've got to put yourself into this stuff. And it might be painful at times, because there's an emotive quality. But it shows up. And I think people feel it. I mean, creative boom is a fantastic example of that. It's an embodiment of you. And it shows whether that's in the-- this type of thing, the fact that you're taking the time to visit studios, in the articles, in the way that we've been lucky enough to communicate on email or messaging, there's a disarming warmth that I really love. Northern, that's what it is. There is that too. I have a strong affinity for that as well. Yeah, I always have to rely on myself. Hard to use the Simon. Oh, yeah, yeah. I've spent some time in Hadestfield and so on. And I think there is-- but you find that across the world. We're lucky enough to have all sorts of nationalities. And I love that perspective change. Yeah. London's really friendly. I find New York super friendly as well. If you just chat with people-- I do. Yeah. I've had some of the best conversations. And I think-- Yeah, it's the same in Canada, my wife's from Toronto. And she's always saying how easy it is to just strike up a conversation. I have some really strange ones on the subway. I mean, unexpected ones. Like what? Like what? Tell her. [LAUGHS] You know, where you just go off on a tangent. Where there's two things that you engage in that conversation. Or you just nod politely and hope that-- But they leave you alone. They leave me alone. But yeah, I think I had someone try and bind me on the subway, which is really strange. Yeah, there was throwing little one-cent pieces and going, how much? It was very surreal. Wow. But that's what happens. Maybe you get into those sorts of scrapes. There's that little split second where your brain misfires. You misjudge what you're dealing with. And I do quite often. And then it's too late when you realize that the person you're dealing with is quite on another spectrum. On another plane. Yeah. And then you have to politely excuse yourself and extract yourself from that scenario. And I think I get myself into those scenarios more often than I should. Yeah. But I guess maybe that's just being open to things. You know, open to people in conversations. But I think it goes back to that positive spirit. If I read something, I think it was an actilly thing. But if you project like radiance from your face, you know, just kind of, then there's a power to that. Yeah. And people feel it. When we were in India with friends, I got asked the most to have my picture taken with people. Like probably about 30 times, everybody else took a couple. And Nando went, "Why do people keep coming up to me and asking me to have their picture with them?" And they were all like, "Because you just smile at everyone." And I was like, "This is screaming. This is great. I mean, India, you're all lovely." Yeah. And also, you know, it's maybe it's for them unusual to see you and it's great to have that picture. I think this whole AI discussion is really interesting again, just leaning back into what makes us human. It's a wonderful thing to be reminded of our strengths and what we're capable of. Absolutely. Yeah. I think we were probably before AI heading, like I get chatting with a lot of my friends, creative directors, people who run agencies. We were just getting a bit boring, wasn't it? It was getting a little bit samey across many fields. Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, that's where it comes down to the flattening of things is that we needed something a new challenge, something like a area and difficult. And there is so much potential to do something, new, something exciting. And yeah, we need a job. We need to change that paradigm. And I think the more people that race to that, it helps everyone else do it. So, and that's what we look forward to. You know, we do need to wake up. You know, we can't settle. And the world is moving so rapidly. We have to speed up, not in making things faster, but in the way we think and adapt. And now's the time to do it. You know, we want to get ahead of things. And that's super exciting. You know, there's just an opportunity to, I've no fuck things up, just break things. Love it. Enjoy ourselves when we do it. We can't go into it with fear. We have to go into it with excitement, whatever that is. And I think that happens when we band together as a community is in industry, where we see others strike forth and you go, "Fuck, that's amazing, you know, let's find our own path. Let's find our own clear space." And I think, yeah, people are going to [BLANK_AUDIO] through the stratosphere, right? There's this kind of a new barrier to break through and I can't wait for people to do that. And hopefully we'll be there doing it with everyone else. I hope so. I'm well excited. I'm going to carry on working for the next 20 years or for Can. I'm like, what's next? There is a what next. And I think when you're in a business, there's always a question of, well, what are you going to do? How are you going to close it out or move on? But I really like the idea that, you know, or we do, that this is something that lasts, you know, I mean, we see how it goes. But I think personally, the idea of stopping doesn't doesn't feel right because there's so much to do. And it's innate. You know, we talk about this idea of design for life. It's innate. So if I stop, I probably do something, I'll do the same again, but different, you know, it'd be a creative endeavor. And that's why having big semaxes is an idea. It is powerful because it gives us the opportunity to be almost like an investment vehicle for other ventures, whatever that might be. And that's what we want. We want a sense of independence so that we can make those choices in our own way. And that's where we headed. And I think, you know, yeah, that's very exciting. And we're going to do it for as long as we can. Yeah, you said to me privately, you feel like you're only just getting started. It's funny that, you know, we are 25 years in, in November, it's going to be our birthday, which is, which is really crazy. And we've kind of been through eras, you know, pre pre like apps, pre iPhone, you know, pre, well, you know, when we started, I think the iPod had just come out. So, you know, there's been these paradigm shifts, these eras, whether that's the dot-com bus, the, you know, the 2008 COVID, there've been so many ups and downs. And I would say, you know, we've had to adapt and change. If we'd settled and said, we're going to be in stasis, we wouldn't be here. And I think the big thing for us, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Exactly. And I think it's about staying relevant in our own way, finding our own voice. And because the world is changing, that means we must change. And therefore, it is just getting started because there's always a moment of change. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's, and that's why it feels fresh. And maybe that's a mindset thing as well. You know, we were, I think, as excited about what we can do today as we were probably on day one. Yeah. You know, and that spirit is something that really, really drives us. And, you know, I hope I don't think it will go away because we've got our own energizer battery that says we've got to keep going. And I think, you know, we've got a team that also has their version of that. So hopefully we can shape that future together. Brilliant. Well, that's left us feeling very optimistic. I'm full of excitement. I want to run out, like, just spin my arms around in the air and say, yeah, let's do something. What? Let's do something. This is great. The future's here. You've got the sign behind you as well. I think it's all propped anyway. Like, you've got this. You've got this. And I think there's something in that is self-belief conviction and finding that voice. If it even if it's the quiet voice, listen to it and trust that instinct. Well, thank you so much, Prova, for being on the creative and podcast. It's been brilliant. Amazing. Thanks, Casey. Always a pleasure, but this one was really fun to do. That's a Prova back seat. Thank you so much for coming on the show. And honestly, I love the energy. Just that sense of get stuck in, try new things, don't wait around for permission from anyone. Yeah, things are changing. And it's a bit chaotic, but there's also a massive opportunity out there if you're willing to lean in and back yourself a bit more. And that idea of taste of having your own point of view, that's the bit that really sticks with me because no tool can ever replace that, because that's all you. It's kind of what I've been doing with creative being. We'll link to Dixon Backseat in the show notes if you want to explore more of their work. And if you enjoyed this episode, give it a follow or share it with someone who's probably overthinking AI a bit too much right now. And we're back on Thursday for the Spock, where we're with a Prova once again, to ask him a bunch of silly questions and get to know the person behind the brand. See you then. Thanks to Adobe for sponsoring this episode and for getting behind the Bionic Awards. It's the kind of initiative that creative community genuinely needs right now. Find out more at the link in the show notes and we'll see you next time. [Music]